Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Austrian / Tyrolean C class quality question

Hey folks,

Sorry if this has been covered - did a search and couldnt find much. Just curious with regards to the quality of C class...looking to fly in 5/13 from JFK to VIE on a 777.

The wife and I only have C class experience on KLM (which we enjoyed) and Delta (meh).

Really love the straight shot to Vienna, but if the product is bad I wouldnt mind making a connection if it meant flying on LH.

Thanks in advance!

No way LH is better than OS. Basically same seat but much better soft product. More like LX F than LH C in terms of food quality.

Outstanding! Thanks.

OS is also upgrading their seats on longhaul over the next few months...which should improve their hard product

more like LX C seat...the refurbishment should be done in April 2013

http://www.airliners.de/management/marketing/aua-waehlt-neue-business-class/26777

the article is in German, but you get the general idea...the color is wrong should be something more subdued than this blue


also take a look at this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/1330155-first-details-austrians-longhaul-refurbish-presented.html)

I flew on them a couple of times last year VIE to IAD and thought that they were fine. Service was better than LH, food was great, seat was typical lie flat angled pod, similar to Thai, Asiana etc.

If you were happy with KLM, then you'll really like Austrian.

Good to know. Just booked! Austrian to VIE and then LX C from BCN back to JFK.

Looking forward to it. Thanks again for all the help.

I will probably also be used Austrian for a flight to Vienna - Bangkok.

I makes me worry about the seat in C
Is it really so terrible?

It is the same as on the old business class LH?

thank you

I will probably also be used Austrian for a flight to Vienna - Bangkok.

I makes me worry about the seat in C
Is it really so terrible?

It is the same as on the old business class LH?

thank you

It's not terrible at all - not as good as a fully flat seat like United or BA, but similar to most lie flat slightly sloping seats. I wouldn't have any hesitation in flying Austrian long haul C.

I will probably also be used Austrian for a flight to Vienna - Bangkok.

I makes me worry about the seat in C
Is it really so terrible?

It is the same as on the old business class LH?

thank you


It is extremely terrible. If you like comfort and luxury, it feels like a pain in the a** to fly Austrian business class. I had in spring this year such a flight from Male to Vienna and I still remember that old and uncomfortable business class. I'd avoid it if I can.

It is extremely terrible. If you like comfort and luxury, it feels like a pain in the a** to fly Austrian business class. I had in spring this year such a flight from Male to Vienna and I still remember that old and uncomfortable business class. I'd avoid it if I can.

Huh? While the OS seat certainly isn't great, it's far from being as bad as you're describing it. And while LH will take up to 4 years to fully replace their seats with a still-not-so-great seat, OS will get a seat similar to the nice new LX C, and having them ready in all planes by next spring. That, and their trully great food, will make them an excellent choice starting spring '13. And by now, they're already a very good choice on a day flight, and an acceptable choice on a night flight.

And by now, they're already a very good choice on a day flight, and an acceptable choice on a night flight.

^

I concur completely. Anyone that thinks the Austrian seat is 'extremely terrible' either flies in 1st all the time, or is too fussy.

i disagree. OS C seat is extremely hard and slanted at a awkward angle. You'll be constantly sliding down if its in the flat position. Put it in the lounge position for the most comfortable position.

^

I concur completely. Anyone that thinks the Austrian seat is 'extremely terrible' either flies in 1st all the time, or is too fussy.

I will probably also be used Austrian for a flight to Vienna - Bangkok.

I makes me worry about the seat in C
Is it really so terrible?

It is the same as on the old business class LH?

thank you

See here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1369306-os25-vie-bkk-c-millenium-hilton-bangkok.html

Austrian C seat is certainly not among the best... very hard to sleep in... but quite good just for seating...

Doing JFK-VIE then VIE-NRT in C in about two weeks. Will report back. Will also be doing LH from NRT-FRA on same trip.

Bear in mind I just enjoyed LX F NRT-ZRH-NRT a couple weeks ago.

Should be fun comparison shopping.

Remind me if I fail to get a post up by Sept 1. Flying mid to end Aug.

Doing JFK-VIE then VIE-NRT in C in about two weeks. Will report back. Will also be doing LH from NRT-FRA on same trip.

Bear in mind I just enjoyed LX F NRT-ZRH-NRT a couple weeks ago.

Should be fun comparison shopping.

Remind me if I fail to get a post up by Sept 1. Flying mid to end Aug.

Looking forward to the feedback!

I have checked the Austrian and Tyrolean websites with little success, can anyone tell me how to find out if Toronto - Vienna would have the new business class cabin? or where to find pictures of what the product is if it isnt the new one? (i did find the new business class cabin info on Austrian website but no way to know what routes it is available on...) thanks

I have checked the Austrian and Tyrolean websites with little success, can anyone tell me how to find out if Toronto - Vienna would have the new business class cabin? or where to find pictures of what the product is if it isnt the new one? (i did find the new business class cabin info on Austrian website but no way to know what routes it is available on...) thanks

When are you planning to fly? On this route a 767 is flying. This means that after the new cabin you will have a 1-2-1 configuration in C. Unfortunatelly you will only know it when you book your flight, or you can ask your travelling agent to check the configuration for you.
They will start with the refurbishing of the Boeings by November (with a 767) and they will need around 6 weeks per plane. So if you fly this year your chances will be nearly 0.

Thanks SenFly I am flying on Sept 1 ie in 3 weeks. everywhere I research suggests the business class on this 767 is older style with flat inclined seat that is not very comfortable, and antiquated video system with no VOD.
my question is, on the Austrian website, there is a neat video animation of the business class seat - i guess this is not the product on the current 767s?
it is a pity to pay for business class and get a substandard product but I have few options...

Thanks SenFly I am flying on Sept 1 ie in 3 weeks. everywhere I research suggests the business class on this 767 is older style with flat inclined seat that is not very comfortable, and antiquated video system with no VOD.
my question is, on the Austrian website, there is a neat video animation of the business class seat - i guess this is not the product on the current 767s?
it is a pity to pay for business class and get a substandard product but I have few options...

You are most welcome Dirkster. Here you can find the current business class seat:

http://service.austrian.com/sites/book/en/index.html

They mention that it is the new seat, but it is not. This is the long haul seat that they have had for a while now. It is outdated, narrow, hard and not lie flat. Furthermore the entertainment system is one of the worst, no avod. All in all a bad hard product. Unfortunatelly not even the good food and friendly service make up for the uncomfortable seats. Luckily the new cabin will be installed soon and then the hard product will be inline with the soft product.
Still for you it will be the only direct connection to Toronto. Or you will have to transit in LHR or FRA.

thanks, this is the clarification i was seeking. not great, but the idea of connecting is not great either.

They will start with the refurbishing of the Boeings by November (with a 767)

actually I talked to someone at OS yesterday and they said that they will start with the 777s

OK, as promised a review of OS in C from JFK to VIE. Adding a bit of commentary on OS C VIE to NRT, a bit on LH C NRT to FRA, and finally LX F NRT-ZRH-NRT. I include all because they are the same group and the product line quality control is interesting.

Seats:

LX > LH > OS

OS seats are not bad if you will be awake and put a pillow and possibly a folded blanket under your butt. Otherwise they are too hard. The leg room is ample and the recline and sleep positions are acceptable if you can tolerate an angled flat seat.

LH (on the 380) is based on the same mistake they made in the last iteration of their F Class seats, i.e. 2 seats acting as a set and not enough width for either one really. Angled but far more comfortable than OS if awake. If trying to sleep it is for too narrow and on a par with the OS product. For all of their engineering prowess the Germans and Austrian did a shockingly bad job on their seats.

LX is pure paradise.

IFE:

OS IFE is ridiculous and of the quality UA used to offer in their old seats. Just pure garbage.

LH has better screens albeit small. AVOD but a really silly linear series of commends to navigate it. Not at all easy to move from one section to another without restarting from the home screen. And the flight map is years behind UA even. No zoom function for example.

LX is on a par with LH.

Food:

OS stands so far above LH it is hard to see the group relationship. Real food prepared and presented in a very appealing manner. Obviously not a fine dining restaurant and similar prep tools but the process on OS produces a far more appealing meal. That and the fact the offerings are better. A simple point like bread which is a true treat in either country is very good on OS and very average on LH. I rate this as good as LX F and even as good as NH F for western food.

LH, very formulaic and with your eyes closed you could be on UA.

LX, in F the meal is of a quality you will find in OS C. In LX C not so much.

Wine:

OS has a tremendous selection of truly spectacular Austrian wines. They even finish the meal with Kracher.

LH has a average list even in F.

LX in F has one of the best wine lists in the air.

Only LX has Champagne worthy of the name, i.e. Grand Siecle from Laurent-Perrier.

Service:

LX takes the cake here. They are almost Asia in their practiced manner. High marks.

OS and LH are typical of what you find in Austria and Germany. Good service, lots of heart, but still a rather distant and unsophisticated air compared to what you will find in Japan. I would rate the two as equal in the service category. Both are OK, neither is stellar.

Overall Scores:

If flying to VIE and are a foodie, OS.
If you are a plane junkie, 380 is the most amazing aircraft in the air. LH via FRA.
If you are a sleeper, fly via ZRH on LX.

Happy to answer any questions you may have.

Mike

Ha, I randomly checked this thread as I woke up this morning thinking "Hey, mjm was supposed to give us some feedback around this time."

Itll be interesting to see how the new OS seats compare. Im not traveling until May so I assume they will be installed by then.

After reading your post, Im extremely excited to fly LX on the way home.

This summer I did LO JFK-WAW, and OS VIE-JFK in C. I really did not like the OS flights-not only from the seat-but also the lounge (FAR from gates in VIE) and the checkin. IT was a MADHOUSE!!!! Get to the airport EARLY if flying out of VIE!!!

Here is the post highlights on LO/OS:


LOT C:
SURPRISING great!
Check in-solid and quick (9/10)
GREAT food (9/10)
GREAT lounge (LX at JFK) (9/10)
EMPTY cabin (3 of 18) (10/10)
seat was actually not bad (would give it a 8/10)
IFE was so-so (digital boxes) (8/10)
boarding was so-so (business was first though) (8/10)
Timing was great-left at 11pm (10/10)

OS C:
Disappointment at best
Check in was HORRIFIC in VIE. Business class line was ~40 minute wait!!! (1/10)
GREAT food (10/10)
So/so lounge (food 8/10, location 3/10) it is a LONG walk to the gates!
Seat was not very comforable. Even my 14 yr old was complaining of "rear end pain" 4/10
IFE was 90's (2/10)
boarding was enmasse and confusing at best (2/10) (WHY do i need to be at the gate at 830 for a 1040 flight so you can check my passport??????? )

Overall, I would probably say LOT/UA were a close tie. I would not be affraid to take LOT again!!! OS-NEVER again! Other issues were had on OS. The handbaggage rule was held to 8KG. The guy tracked me down and made me weigh my bag 3 times (it was a nearly empty full size roller). I ended up checking it.

HON/SEN/*gold/Business check in was a MADHOUSE! Bus customers should not wait 45 min to check in. In a non-moving line!

Just my $.02


LOT JFK-WAW 767
OS VIE-JFK 777

This summer I did LO JFK-WAW, and OS VIE-JFK in C. I really did not like the OS flights-not only from the seat-but also the lounge (FAR from gates in VIE) and the checkin. IT was a MADHOUSE!!!! Get to the airport EARLY if flying out of VIE!!!

Here is the post highlights on LO/OS:


LOT C:
SURPRISING great!
Check in-solid and quick (9/10)
GREAT food (9/10)
GREAT lounge (LX at JFK) (9/10)
EMPTY cabin (3 of 18) (10/10)
seat was actually not bad (would give it a 8/10)
IFE was so-so (digital boxes) (8/10)
boarding was so-so (business was first though) (8/10)
Timing was great-left at 11pm (10/10)

OS C:
Disappointment at best
Check in was HORRIFIC in VIE. Business class line was ~40 minute wait!!! (1/10)
GREAT food (10/10)
So/so lounge (food 8/10, location 3/10) it is a LONG walk to the gates!
Seat was not very comforable. Even my 14 yr old was complaining of "rear end pain" 4/10
IFE was 90's (2/10)
boarding was enmasse and confusing at best (2/10) (WHY do i need to be at the gate at 830 for a 1040 flight so you can check my passport??????? )

Overall, I would probably say LOT/UA were a close tie. I would not be affraid to take LOT again!!! OS-NEVER again! Other issues were had on OS. The handbaggage rule was held to 8KG. The guy tracked me down and made me weigh my bag 3 times (it was a nearly empty full size roller). I ended up checking it.

HON/SEN/*gold/Business check in was a MADHOUSE! Bus customers should not wait 45 min to check in. In a non-moving line!

Just my $.02


LOT JFK-WAW 767
OS VIE-JFK 777

Thankfully my flight out of VIE is only a hop to BCN. Ill be sure to show up early regardless!

This summer I did LO JFK-WAW, and OS VIE-JFK in C. I really did not like the OS flights-not only from the seat-but also the lounge (FAR from gates in VIE) and the checkin. IT was a MADHOUSE!!!! Get to the airport EARLY if flying out of VIE!!!

etc...



No wait at all for OS C desks. Maybe one person in front. For European bound bank of flights. Not sure where that experience came from but atypical would be an understatement.

Lounges are adjacent to gates now also. The information provided in the post is out of date.

Boarding is by class also.

Seems you had a bad trip. They happen but do not indicate the norm.

Deleted 6 off topic posts. Please be nice.

Regards Oliver2002
Mod M&M

Flew JFK-VIE last week in C.

Seat is terrible (slightly worse then KL). Food is excellent. Selection of papers/magazines good. Lounge in VIE not very good. My biggest gripe (since I was on a daytime flight and sleep less important) is the entertainment system - very outdated and they only had about 6 movies playing.

It seems that the first plane with the new cabin will be the 767 OE-LAX. It will be flying from mid of November.
OS seems to stick to the timetable.

http://austrianaviation.net/news-regional/news-detail/datum/2012/08/31/aua-grundueberholung-fuer-767-flotte.html

Does anyone know anything about this airline? They have a hub in Vienna. I am looking to book a flight OTP-IAD and some of the routings I am coming up with use them. They also seem to be called Austrian Arrows. Is their overseas business class comparable to other airlines business class?

This is actually Austrian airlines...

"Overseas" is perhaps not the best word to use when referring to a land-locked country such as Austria if you intend it as a synonym for "international". Tyrolean rarely flies over any seas.

From the past month:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/star-alliance/1380254-tyrolean-airways.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/1373985-austrian-tyrolean-c-class-quality-question.html

Somewhat older:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/1143474-tyrolean-business-class.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/815323-extraordinary-c-service-tyrolean.html

Tyrolean rarely flies over any seas

Actually quite a few these days. Austrian has moved most of it's airframes and crew to Tyrolean . Austrian is almost a virtual airline these days ;)

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/austrian-airlines-latest-restructuring-round-is-moving-forward-with-tyrolean-airways-absorbing-all-77325

Now, that I didn't know.

My past experiences of Tyrolean/Arrows was on the short-haul network that they ran.

I hadn't realised that Austrian Mainline had been folded into Tyrolean!

The flight I am looking it is listed as a 763, and when I go to Seatguru, it shows business class on Austrian 763 as being 2-2-2. This seems like too many seats. I have only flown business class twice, once on a 763 (DL), and it was 1-2-1. Anyone familiar with their actual seats? I'm not being hyper-picky here, but I don't want to book my wife on what I tell her is a business class flight and have her ask "What the *** was that?"

As mentioned above, it is in fact Austrian Airlines.

The Tyrol or Tirol is a region shared by Austria, Italy, and Germany., In this case it is just a brand name like Mountain, Dolomiten, or Rockies airlines, if there is one.

The aircraft, seating, and service are quite good. For the businessman at least, the flights are punctual.

The flight I am looking it is listed as a 763, and when I go to Seatguru, it shows business class on Austrian 763 as being 2-2-2. This seems like too many seats. I have only flown business class twice, once on a 763 (DL), and it was 1-2-1.

Go to seatguru, and check DL's various 763 configs.

All are 2-2-2.

The only aeroplanes you are likely to find with only 4 seats across in business class in Europe are Embraers and Fokkers. Certainly NOT on a widebody plane!!!

Well you're right about most of DL's 76x, but the 764 and one of the 763's are 1-2-1 in a staggered configuration, and that's what I was on last month.

I understand the intra-European "business class" is nothing we'd really recognize, but this is a TATL flight.

Anyway I think they are reconfiguring all the flights anyway.

I understand the intra-European "business class" is nothing we'd really recognize...

I think intra-EU biz is better than US domestic F. The seats may be nothing to write home over, but it is very nice to have most of a cabin to yourself!

I've only flown it once, a short hop last month LHR-CDG, and it was indeed pretty empty, but the seat were like coach, just that the middle seat was blocked off. I don't know if the food we got was better than coach, just got a breakfast snack thingy. I was tired after the TATL and didn't even notice what they served behind us. But it wasn't a separate cabin.

Does anyone know anything about this airline? They have a hub in Vienna. I am looking to book a flight OTP-IAD and some of the routings I am coming up with use them. They also seem to be called Austrian Arrows. Is their overseas business class comparable to other airlines business class?

It appears your flying OTP-VIE-IAD. I just did the VIE-IAD flight on Tuesday. It is indeed Austrian. Austrian has been rolled into Tyrolean (in June I think) for financial purposes. There are numerous threads about this. However, I don't think there is any noticeable changes to passengers (other than itineraries showing up as 'Austrian operated by Tyrolean for Lufthansa' (that's a mouthful). They have a little sign at the front of business class where it says Austrian Airlines. They recently added "operated by Tyrolean" in smaller print under. Look up Austrian long haul business class in trip reports for more details.

This route is with a 767, 2-2-2 configuration. Food, service, and timing were excellent. Very nice multi course meal and full coffee service. Seat is angled flat and I found it most comfortable in the 'relax' position. The full flat position was not great for me. VIE-IAD is a day flight, so I did not find it bad.

http://www.aua.com/auacms/sites/book/en/index.html

Austrian will be switching these seats out later this year/early next year for full flat seats (similar to Swiss). For now, I believe its on par with other business class (other than the seat being not so great). They have a crazy color scheme, but I actually like it. Light blue walls for the Austrian sky, green carpet for the Austrian meadows, purple seats for the Austrian mountains, and faux wood accents representing the forests. I hope they keep the colors with the new cabin upgrades. I think its unique.

For my money regarding *A, long haul European airlines business class, I like Swiss best, then Turkish, then Austrian (because of the service and food, not the seat), then Lufthansa (I have not experienced the new LH lie flat business, just the angled). Just my opinion. Others I'm sure feel differently.

I was not that impressed with the new VIE terminal that opened this summer. It was not designed with passengers and movement of people in mind. Lots of constrained walkway spaces and really inconsistent signage. Its not hard to navigate though, just thought with a brand new terminal they would have done better. The OS Sen lounge was nice and had really helpful staff though.

The Austrian Arrows segment is likely just the OTP-VIE leg. This could vary, but will likely be an A319 (or similar). I recently experienced VIE-DBV and BCN-VIE on similar flights. This is standard European business class as described in earlier posts above. Service will be good, meal far better than US first class, 3-3 configuration with the middle seat blocked out, but the actual seats will be the same NEK as coach. I don't find these that comfortable, but I suspect OTP-VIE is a pretty quick flight, should be fine.

If the price and timing is right with Austrian, I say go for it.

...The Tyrol or Tirol is a region shared by Austria, Italy, and Germany......and Germany??? :confused: Not before, neither after WWII!

KLouis;

Go back a bit further. Provinz Deutschtirol.

They have a crazy color scheme, but I actually like it. Light blue walls for the Austrian sky, green carpet for the Austrian meadows, purple seats for the Austrian mountains, and faux wood accents representing the forests. I hope they keep the colors with the new cabin upgrades. I think its unique.



Wow...I wasn't aware there is an actual logic behind their crazy color mix. Always interesting what kind of trivia you can learn on FT!

So I have a flight from MUC - GRZ in C on this carrier, what kind of food will be served?

max. one cookie, and you have to eat it fast due to the flighttime:)

@ redtop43

Ever used http://www.npdigital.com.br/Content/images/google-small.png ?

OS/VO 767 C-cl (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Austrian-Airlines/Boeing-767-3Z9-ER/2110333/L/&sid=eb4d54eed64fdadf24992065f9acfa93)

If you're wife don't like it, then i'd say it would be a reason to (...)... ;o)

max. one cookie, and you have to eat it fast due to the flighttime:)


Got it. lol

damn i thought Austrian air has on board chefs. Was hoping they can whip up an eggs florentine for me in the air.

Just kidding.

I'm shouldn't be expecting any champagne?

Or at least some riesling?

Last year I did two legs of Tyrolean in Biz, TSR-VIE-CDG, each leg is less than 2 hours, yet eac leg I got an amazing meal service with stunning silverware, delicious hot entree, very good mousse kind of dessert, and which is really just the best! And later I read reviews that Tyrolean has the best in flight Biz catering last year. And seriously, for such intra EU short hauls, I give a 5 star to Austiran!

http://www.worldairlineawards.com/awards_2011/jcatering.htm

As others have said, until they install the new seats on their long-haul fleet sometime in the coming year, this is not an area of strength for OS biz class. But catering is and so is transit in Vienna (min connecting time is 25 minutes). Lounges are fine, especially the Senator lounge (you have to be star gold to get in). The catering in the biz lounge is a step down--it's OK but not great (although still better than most domestic lounges from US airlines).

VIE-OTP will be operated by a smaller aircraft, and the seat next to you is blocked in biz. So if the cabin six seats wide (like an A320) then it's X - X aisle X - X [where the dash is a blocked seat]. If it's a Fokker 70 or 100 then the AC side of the plane just has two seats and one is blocked and the DEF side is like the six-seat-across plane. And if it's a Q400 then it's two seats on each side of the aisle and one is blocked, so they are all single seats (i.e. no one next to you which isn't that great for a couple but you can each be on one side of the aisle). Again, as others have said, catering should be good.

Just booked a non stop flight on Austrian Airlines from JFK to Vienna. The ticket says that this flight is operated by Tyrolean Airways - does anyone know anything about Tyrolean?

Does anyone have any experience with this flight? I'm guessing that the the flight will take off from the Austrian Airlines terminal @ JFK and the flight will be branded as an Austrian Airlines flight, right?

Thanks!

Don't worry, it is still an Austrian Flight. I understand that it is confusing, Austrian changed their operations into Tyrolian which is in the same group, for lower cost, but it is still the Austrian brand, same F/A and the same service.
I really don't understand why they have to write it, because it is not a codeshare or something like Austrian operated by Aeroflot. :D:D

Don't worry, it is still an Austrian Flight. I understand that it is confusing, Austrian changed their operations into Tyrolian which is in the same group, for lower cost, but it is still the Austrian brand, same F/A and the same service.
I really don't understand why they have to write it, because it is not a codeshare or something like Austrian operated by Aeroflot. :D:D

All OS flights are operated by Tyrolean Airlines, who is the operating carrier. So they have to write it into your booking.

Thanks for the clarification guys. Looking forward to trying out the airline!

All OS flights are operated by Tyrolean Airlines, who is the operating carrier. So they have to write it into your booking.

Okay I understand, I was just thinking that the information was more confusing, than helpful.

This all sounds very ecnouraging.

I'm looking to go to PEK next March and Austrian C class is the best fare at the moment.

Should have the new business seat, the food sounds good and the lounge at VIE shoudl be OK.

Returning from PVG on Swiss so will get to sample their C-which at first glance isn't too shabby either

I too was slightly confused with the Tyrol\Austrian airways names

Mrs ronotg and I are taking OS on award tickets in C IAD>VIE Dec 21. (767)
Are they very strict about enforcing carry on luggage limitations?

We flew LH 38O JFK> FRA last summer and no one even took a glance at our somewhat overstuffed rollerboards, which of course was no problem with the cavernous overhead space on that aircraft

Thanks

Mrs ronotg and I are taking OS on award tickets in C IAD>VIE Dec 21. (767)
Are they very strict about enforcing carry on luggage limitations?

We flew LH 38O JFK> FRA last summer and no one even took a glance at our somewhat overstuffed rollerboards, which of course was no problem with the cavernous overhead space on that aircraft

Thanks

In the States they are fine with letting C class have a couple bags and do not care about the weight if size is reasonable. In Vienna the airline is fine about it and will even tag your bag "Cabin Baggage" at the counter, i.e. tacitly giving approval for it. The security checkpoint are a royal pain in the a$$ about it but will tell you to "repack it into smaller bags as it is too heavy." They will of course let you go through on the assumption you will. do so. Rather silly but very German. The Austrians are very enjoyable mix of German and lots of other things.