United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - United Continental & ALPA reach agreement in principle [update: deal not yet reached]

From the United ALPA MEC Site (https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=48862):

Today, ALPA reached agreements in principle (AIPs) with United Continental Holdings, Inc. management on all major economic and scope provisions of the joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), after two years of bargaining and with the assistance of the National Mediation Board (NMB). Work remains on some non-economic issues that will continue in the days ahead, but the JNC is confident that, with the continued support of the NMB, we can reach satisfactory agreement on those as well.

Hope this is good news for all everyone!

Great news! Will be interesting to hear what the terms of the contract are, particularly with regards to scope.

Work remains on some non-economic issues that will continue in the days ahead, but the JNC is confident that, with the continued support of the NMB, we can reach satisfactory agreement on those as well.

So, an agreement that isn't actually an agreement?

This sounds less like an agreement and more like a bargaining position phrased as an agreement. "Gee, well we already announced that we'd reached agreement on all the economic issues, so now you have to cave on the non-economic ones".

Thank god. Now let's hope that the deal doesn't fall through at the last minute.

Maybe Jeffrey isn't as dumb as we think he is. He gets his labor deal, with no strike, and no massive cancellation of flights, lost revenue, etc. Maybe he isn't the next Frank Lorenzo, after all.

A strike would be disastrous for this airline at this point in time. There's never a good time for a strike, but given everything this airline has gone through this year, a strike would have been calamitous.

It's an Agreement in Principle. The non-economic details still need to be worked out and the contract needs to be put into final language and reviewed by both CO and UA Master Executive Councils. When all that is done, it can be called a Tentative Agreement. As yet, it's not.

If both MECs feel that the membership will approve it, they will present it to us in the form of written documentation and road shows at every crew base.

It would be a couple of months before all of this gets done, and in the meantime, both MECs will continue to pursue separate contracts in case this whole merger thing doesn't work out, as well as a release from the National Mediation Board for self-help. We all feel there's a need for that unless there is a ratified contract in hand.

If there are any concessionary parts to this, the pilots would probably vote against it. We have done enough giving and its time to get some of it back. We don't anticipate ever seeing our pensions come back, but we need to see a non-concessionary scope clause, some semblance of return to better work rules, and a pay scale that is at or above Delta's. Mind you, that would bring back about a third of what we lost in '03 and '04, but reality prevails.

If this thing is what I'm hearing, it would increase the cost of a ticket by about 30 cents, assuming UCH were to pass the entire cost on to it's customers, as do other businesses.

Just as we do when we get into a simulator, we'll hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

FAB

If this thing is what I'm hearing, it would increase the cost of a ticket by about 30 cents, assuming UCH were to pass the entire cost on to it's customers, as do other businesses.


I'm hoping for the best. A congratulations to you all is in order when there is a tentative agreement in place. It's been way too long.

I'm also hoping that the 30 cent increase is based on the average fare of ~ $270, and not per $1. :D I have no sympathy for the "choking the goose until it gives us every last egg" attitude of PMUA ALPA.

Thank god. Now let's hope that the deal doesn't fall through at the last minute.

Maybe Jeffrey isn't as dumb as we think he is. He gets his labor deal, with no strike, and no massive cancellation of flights, lost revenue, etc. Maybe he isn't the next Frank Lorenzo, after all.

A strike would be disastrous for this airline at this point in time. There's never a good time for a strike, but given everything this airline has gone through this year, a strike would have been calamitous.

Eastern was small enough that Lorenzo could just close it up. The irony is that today UA is so large that not only can management not do that, labor cannot strike. Its too large to not operate. Although a little CAHOS, to borrow from US Airways labor history, every now and then might be interesting.

Damn! I was hoping for a complete service collapse in a protracted strike leading to a DEQM promo to lure us all back ;)

It is a good step in the right direction. The devil is in the details of course, and it'll probably be weeks until we see language and what's in the CBA. But, it can't help but improve morale some during that time. ^

AD

Damn! I was hoping for a complete service collapse in a protracted strike leading to a DEQM promo to lure us all back ;)

I feel like a FF geek for laughing out loud at that.

It is a good step in the right direction. The devil is in the details of course, and it'll probably be weeks until we see language and what's in the CBA. But, it can't help but improve morale some during that time. ^

AD

Let's hope that indeed happens...

This is great news. I am so glad we won't have to look forward to a period filled with flight delays, unexplained cancelations, and a general dilution of the quality of service we're used to.

I'm hoping for the best. A congratulations to you all is in order when there is a tentative agreement in place. It's been way too long.

I'm also hoping that the 30 cent increase is based on the average fare of ~ $270, and not per $1. :D I have no sympathy for the "choking the goose until it gives us every last egg" attitude of PMUA ALPA.

That phrase, spoken by our then-MEC Chairman, made it's way into infamy, for sure. The man was a brilliant business strategist, but a very abrasive and confrontative guy. He said that in the context of making sure the company gave what it could, and of course was quoted out of context.

He also told us after we signed Contract 2000 that we would spend the rest of our careers defending it because it sounded way too rich for public opinion. He was right. In Nov, 2001, he also said we were going to give it all back, then some. Right again.

I'll say right now that in the next 7 years that I'll be flying, I'll get back 30% of my C2000 pay, 50% of the bennies, 0% of the pension, and -20% of the scope that we gave up in '03 and '04.

What I'd really like is to see UCH management earn every nickel they get paid.

FAB

Assuming that we take this AIP to the Tentative Agreement point, then sign it into a ratified Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement, and assuming that all the big improvements UCH has announced to mitigate the abysmal performance actually come to fruition, you will then hear management advertise that now that we got our contract, we're not in job action mode anymore, explaining the REAL reason that our performance is on the upswing.

FAB

...
I'll say right now that in the next 7 years that I'll be flying, I'll get back 30% of my C2000 pay, 50% of the bennies, 0% of the pension, and -20% of the scope that we gave up in '03 and '04...

You mentioned earlier that you all would probably vote against any more concessions. Are you hearing that the deal will include more scope givebacks? Does that mean the deal is DOA, or will scope be less important than gains in the other parts?

Did they get Delta+$1? Will the rank and file accept it if they didn't?

Will this new contract force UA to eliminate some express flying and actually grow United Airlines and not express?

I remember the old contact allowed express pilots to only fly the bae146 with more than 70 seats. Wonder if the new contract keeps that and possibly say any aircraft above 50 seats?

Anyway i lived that bae146. One of my favorite take off planes.

It is a good step in the right direction. The devil is in the details of course, and it'll probably be weeks until we see language and what's in the CBA. But, it can't help but improve morale some during that time. ^

ADAnd hoping for the best for all of you ^

Congrats UA.



If there are any concessionary parts to this, the pilots would probably vote against it. We have done enough giving and its time to get some of it back. We don't anticipate ever seeing our pensions come back, but we need to see a non-concessionary scope clause, some semblance of return to better work rules, and a pay scale that is at or above Delta's. Mind you, that would bring back about a third of what we lost in '03 and '04, but reality prevails.


I have a small question. United has strict scope clauses compared to Delta and I believe UA can't operate E175/CRJ900 planes and CO has an even stricter ones only allowing <50 seaters.

So if you had the same deal as Delta's including the addition of regional jets would you pilots be happy? I believe that Delta gave a lot higher pay in exchange for relaxed scope clauses.

You mentioned earlier that you all would probably vote against any more concessions. Are you hearing that the deal will include more scope givebacks? Does that mean the deal is DOA, or will scope be less important than gains in the other parts?

Probably not DOA, but with any concession on scope, it will probably only get votes from senior pilots because they won't be around long enough to get stung any further from the outsourcing of narrow body flying.

That said, I'm senior enough that if I wanted to commute and I would be pretty immune to the long term effects of outsourcing myself. I would still vote no though because I wouldn't want to retire knowing I contributed to the outsourcing by ignoring that part of a TA.

Many folks outside of our circles think that money is the biggest part of this TA. It's not, though. Scope and work rules are more important to me.

FAB

Did they get Delta+$1? Will the rank and file accept it if they didn't?

We don't know what any of the provisions of this agreement in principle are. There are rumors out there, but no factual information.

I'll say this again: pay scales are only one of many parts to an acceptable contract, and most certainly, not the biggest factor. Everyone seems to miss this point. Scope and work rules are more important to the majority of us.

I would expect that the pay scales will be pretty close to Delta's though. It's industry standard, and there's no reason not to expect that.

FAB

The non-economic details still need to be worked out

What would be an example of a non-economic detail?

Will this new contract force UA to eliminate some express flying and actually grow United Airlines and not express?

I remember the old contact allowed express pilots to only fly the bae146 with more than 70 seats. Wonder if the new contract keeps that and possibly say any aircraft above 50 seats?

Anyway i lived that bae146. One of my favorite take off planes.

If it wants to get voted in by the pilots, it HAS to have scope improvements to bring flying back in house away from UAX. If it doesn't, I forsee the pilots voting it down and starting over. But, we won't see any details for weeks, so we really can't comment on anything in particular.

AD

If it wants to get voted in by the pilots, it HAS to have scope improvements to bring flying back in house away from UAX. If it doesn't, I forsee the pilots voting it down and starting over. But, we won't see any details for weeks, so we really can't comment on anything in particular.

AD

Thanks. I really hope that UA pilots stick with the CO strict 50 seat rule. This will force UA to buy an aircraft in the 100 seat range and have United AIRLINES fly these routes and not express.

Several midwest to ORD routes fly exclusive 50 seats routes and haven driven me to WN out of MDW. If they bring this flying in house and expand the airline, I will fly UA instead of driving down to MDW.

Thanks. I really hope that UA pilots stick with the CO strict 50 seat rule. This will force UA to buy an aircraft in the 100 seat range and have United AIRLINES fly these routes and not express.

Several midwest to ORD routes fly exclusive 50 seats routes and haven driven me to WN out of MDW. If they bring this flying in house and expand the airline, I will fly UA instead of driving down to MDW.

Sure, this would be great IF UA then turns around and buys 70-100 seat jets and has them flown by mainline crews. It would be nothing short of spectacular actually.

Seems fairly unlikely though unfortunately.

Thanks. I really hope that UA pilots stick with the CO strict 50 seat rule. This will force UA to buy an aircraft in the 100 seat range and have United AIRLINES fly these routes and not express.

Several midwest to ORD routes fly exclusive 50 seats routes and haven driven me to WN out of MDW. If they bring this flying in house and expand the airline, I will fly UA instead of driving down to MDW.

Sure, this would be great IF UA then turns around and buys 70-100 seat jets and has them flown by mainline crews. It would be nothing short of spectacular actually.

Seems fairly unlikely though unfortunately.

It will be a huge point of contention for us. Our main objective in the scope issue is to see the airline grow from within instead of becoming a virtual airline.

FAB

Thanks. I really hope that UA pilots stick with the CO strict 50 seat rule. This will force UA to buy an aircraft in the 100 seat range and have United AIRLINES fly these routes and not express.

Several midwest to ORD routes fly exclusive 50 seats routes and haven driven me to WN out of MDW. If they bring this flying in house and expand the airline, I will fly UA instead of driving down to MDW.

Well your first paragraph contradicts your second. If they stick to the CO 50 seat scope, then say good bye to first class cabins and E plus on every UX jet.

Well your first paragraph contradicts your second. If they stick to the CO 50 seat scope, then say good bye to first class cabins and E plus on every UX jet.

Its actually an interesting issue. CO had fortress hubs, and could force folks to fly the 50 seaters. They are also very poor on fuel efficiency, and therefore are being phased out by many airlines.

DL just leased 717s, to be flown by DL pilots, and at this point many UA itinteraries include UX while DL is entirely mainline. I book DL.

I think the competitive disadvantage combined with the poor fuel efficiency or hte 50 seaters may force UA to fly more mainline regardless of the scope issue.

As such it may be a lesser issue for UCH practically than it was for CO.

What would be an example of a non-economic detail?

Our schedule bidding system is pretty non-economic to the company. The difference between having it and not having it is huge for the company since it allows them to staff the airline with fewer pilots, but that ship has sailed, and having pilots furloughed is part of that. The company only cares about pilots in seats, not who does what, and we're probably going to adopt the CO Preferential Bidding System over the one we have as UA pilots. It needs to be addressed in our contract, but has little financial impact to the company.

Long story short.

FAB

This is great news. I am so glad we won't have to look forward to a period filled with flight delays, unexplained cancelations, and a general dilution of the quality of service we're used to.

Some of us caught that one. :D

Well your first paragraph contradicts your second. If they stick to the CO 50 seat scope, then say good bye to first class cabins and E plus on every UX jet.

This would force UA to get rid of some
50 seaters and purchase airplanes with 100-120 seats and allow UA pilots to fly them.

Ord-Ind for example is between 10-13 50 or 70 seaters a day. Some flights are within an hour of each other. Fly a few Express but not every single flight. This flight should have a few mainline a day. We dont need 13 nonstops. I think 8 United flights a day would work. This is a route that 10 years ago flew with 767-200's and 757's. this is every single midwest destination from Ord. Its foolish to have all express when an airline like southwest can fly 737's to every midwest destination. A few with 10 nonstops or more.

United should grown within and not with Express.

It will be a huge point of contention for us. Our main objective in the scope issue is to see the airline grow from within instead of becoming a virtual airline.

FAB

100% understood (and agreed fwiw). My concern as a passenger is that the pilots can 'win' on a scope clause, and UA will just go from using ~70 seat ex-plus jets to using slightly more ~50 seat jets.

The pilots win on the scope clause must be coupled with UA making a commitment to additional mainline flying of smaller jets. Otherwise it is a net-loss for customers (and net-netural for pilots).

100% understood (and agreed fwiw). My concern as a passenger is that the pilots can 'win' on a scope clause, and UA will just go from using ~70 seat ex-plus jets to using slightly more ~50 seat jets.

The pilots win on the scope clause must be coupled with UA making a commitment to additional mainline flying of smaller jets. Otherwise it is a net-loss for customers (and net-netural for pilots).

That is what we're trying to do. Delta pilots got a new contract that does exactly that, it reduces the number of express seats by 20% or so while growing the domestic mainline fleet. I hope we do the same.

AD

That is what we're trying to do. Delta pilots got a new contract that does exactly that, it reduces the number of express seats by 20% or so while growing the domestic mainline fleet. I hope we do the same.

AD

We customers and you pilots have a mutual interest in that for sure. ^

It looks like UCH management has been attempting to derail out "Agreement in Principle" with the pilots. They have been "injecting terms into previously agreed-to provisions making them now unacceptable." Here's (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-pilots-contract-talks-stalled-222212053.html) a link to a Yahoo Finance article. It says pretty much what the UALMEC Chairman has said to us.

Back to the drawing board, and getting the National Mediation Board involved again.

I thought we might have had the makings of a fair deal with them. This was not entirely unexpected.

FAB

The AIP left some major terms (scope, pay) wide open. It was probably premature that news of it was released.

You thought Tilton was bad? You ain't seen nothing yet, he upgraded his arsenal. Classic bait and switch so the summer would go more smoothly.

It looks like UCH management has been attempting to derail out "Agreement in Principle" with the pilots.

Unfortunately, I doubt either side is being honest and forthright...

Not wide open. But then if it's not in contractual language, it's fair game for bait & switch as long as they don't consider their word to have any meaning.

This is unexpected but not really a surprise.

FAB