Amtrak Guest Rewards - New Refund Policy, eff 8/12/2012

Amtrak is changing the refund policy for all paid travel effective 8/12/2012. Here it is:
A new refund and exchange policy will be in effect starting August 12, 2012. The key changes include:

Passenger travel in a reservation is grouped into “logical trips.” Refunds will be applied to a logical trip - a grouping of continuous travel. Example: A booking Wilmington - Washington - Chicago - Seattle with same-day connections is one logical trip.

Refund fee is 10 percent of logical trip with a $5 minimum, $100 maximum.

Refund rules are governed by the following types of travel, in the following order:

Sleeping Car Reservations: Refundable if the reservation is canceled at least 15 days prior to travel; refund fee applies.

First Class & non-Acela Business Class: Refundable; no refund fee applies if the reservation is canceled prior to scheduled departure.

Reserved Coach & Acela Express Business Class: Refundable; no refund fee applies if the reservation is canceled at least 24 hours prior to scheduled departure.

Unreserved Rail Fare: Refundable; refund fee applies.

New Policy (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267362242)

Why do they introduce this "logical trip" concept? Why not apply the policy to tickets that are under a the same reservation?

Why do they introduce this "logical trip" concept? Why not apply the policy to tickets that are under a the same reservation?
So they can hit you twice, once for the outbound and again for the return.

And to allow a customer to take an outbound and refund a return after travel begins.

Why do they introduce this "logical trip" concept? Why not apply the policy to tickets that are under a the same reservation?

Typical of Amtrak, this policy poses more questions than it provides answers. The "logical trip" is a perfect example.

So they can hit you twice, once for the outbound and again for the return.Meaning you can't cancel half of a same-day trip that's all on the same reservation?

Is the refund Amtrak credit or to the original form of payment? Does the refund fee apply to both?

They even mention a new exchange policy but fail to present it. This is confusing, indeed.

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Is the refund Amtrak credit or to the original form of payment? Does the refund fee apply to both?

Fee only applies to refund, not credit voucher.

Fee only applies to refund, not credit voucher.

Unless you're traveling in a sleeper. Then the fee applies, either way.

How does this new policy affect Amtrak Guest Rewards tickets?

How does this new policy affect Amtrak Guest Rewards tickets?The rules page on the AGR website has not been modified yet.

It has been posted on another site that an Amtrak CSR stated the new policy will be applied to all reservations stating August 12, not just reservations made after August 12. Anyone with an existing reservation that they assume is 100% refundable may be in for a surprise.

Wow, are they really allowed to change ticket terms retroactively? I'm not in a position to read the CoC right now, but that doesn't sound right. I could imagine many CC chargebacks as a consequence.

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time an Amtrak employee propagated a baseless rumor. :)

It has been posted on another site that an Amtrak CSR stated the new policy will be applied to all reservations stating August 12, not just reservations made after August 12. Anyone with an existing reservation that they assume is 100% refundable may be in for a surprise.

I'll bet against that. Retro change of contract terms is frowned upon under U.S. and state law.

My email to Amtrak:Does the new refund policy (effective 8/12/2012) apply to existing reservations?
Amtrak's response this morning (8/9):Thank you for contacting us.

The new Refund Policy will apply to all refunds processed on or after August 12, 2012.

We hope this information is helpful.

Not cool at all, Amtrak. You can't move the goalposts post-transaction like that. :td:

They're also doing that (moving the goalposts) with their new baggage policy, which goes into effect September 10. The website gives no indication (http://www.amtrak.com/baggage-policy) that the changes only apply to new tickets. So if you purchased an Amtrak ticket expecting to check 3 bags for free, you will be out of luck.

So an Acela first ticket is refundable if cancelled before departure, but an Acela business class ticket needs to be cancelled 24 hours in advance?!

This is really causing me to re-think my Amtrak strategy. I had become accustomed to cancelling at the last minute and loved the flexibility - one of the reasons I defected from DL Shuttle two years ago. Now, I really have to keep on top of things.

This is really causing me to re-think my Amtrak strategy. I had become accustomed to cancelling at the last minute and loved the flexibility - one of the reasons I defected from DL Shuttle two years ago. Now, I really have to keep on top of things.

Presumably you can still change your plans ( and keep changing your plans) up to the last minute, you just can't get a refund in certain circumstances.

Wow, are they really allowed to change ticket terms retroactively? I'm not in a position to read the CoC right now, but that doesn't sound right. I could imagine many CC chargebacks as a consequence.

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time an Amtrak employee propagated a baseless rumor. :)

I'll bet against that. Retro change of contract terms is frowned upon under U.S. and state law.

Not cool at all, Amtrak. You can't move the goalposts post-transaction like that. :td:

I haven't read the CoC's, but I'm sure you will find the phrase "subject to change". The lawyers have been using that for ages. The sad part is we usually stop reading before reaching that part.

It's like a guaranteed benefit that includes "subject to availability". ???

Presumably you can still change your plans ( and keep changing your plans) up to the last minute, you just can't get a refund in certain circumstances.

True, but it would be less painful if they allowed the credit vouchers to be redeemed online.

I haven't read the CoC's, but I'm sure you will find the phrase "subject to change". The lawyers have been using that for ages. The sad part is we usually stop reading before reaching that part.

True, Amtrak can change its terms as it sees fit, and certainly no one is forced to do business with them going forward. However (and IANAL), contract law would probably disfavor attempts to unilaterally alter already-executed contracts if the other party can't do the same. DOT's ruling compelling airlines to honor mistake fares comes to mind.

I'm not feeling the new policy. Had to do my first cancellation today. It was one of the 14-day advance NER fares, and the website would not allow a refund. It forced a credit voucher, which clearly states non-refundable. The best part of Amtrak was its level of flexibility. Ugh.

I'm not feeling the new policy. Had to do my first cancellation today. It was one of the 14-day advance NER fares, and the website would not allow a refund. It forced a credit voucher, which clearly states non-refundable. The best part of Amtrak was its level of flexibility. Ugh.

Yup, it appears they're finally enforcing the "non-refundable" terms on the NEC advance purchase tickets. I ran into a similar situation the other day. Now if they'd only make it more clear at booking time which fares are non-refundable...

Yup, it appears they're finally enforcing the "non-refundable" terms on the NEC advance purchase tickets. I ran into a similar situation the other day. Now if they'd only make it more clear at booking time which fares are non-refundable...
Maybe it is time for DOT to impose consumer protection requirement on Amtrak like they did with airlines. For example:

- Fully or partially non-refundable fares should be clearly identified prior to the final purchase.
- Reservations should be eligible for cancellation within 24 hours of purchase with a full refund.

It seems like Amtrak wants to behave like an airline. Perhaps DOT should treat them like an airline.

I'm not feeling the new policy. Had to do my first cancellation today. It was one of the 14-day advance NER fares, and the website would not allow a refund. It forced a credit voucher, which clearly states non-refundable. The best part of Amtrak was its level of flexibility. Ugh.

And that evoucher is not usable online :mad::td:

So its better to modify than to cancel but I tried to modify a reservation that had not used any discount but now it would not let me get a AAA rate since my original reservation did not have a AAA discount. Amtrak has gone from the best policies to worst than airlines. Maybe it's time to take to the skies on days my schedule permits!:(

And that evoucher is not usable online :mad::td:
That part is truly insane, although I suspect online redemption of vouchers is in the works and will be announced at some point soon: For now, eVouchers may only be redeemed at an Amtrak ticket office, not at Quik-Trak, online at Amtrak.com or by phone.
If they have an electronic record of how much money you have in their system, it should be a very short leap to being able to apply that money to a new ticket booked online.

So its better to modify than to cancel but I tried to modify a reservation that had not used any discount but now it would not let me get a AAA rate since my original reservation did not have a AAA discount. Amtrak has gone from the best policies to worst than airlines.
I wouldn't go anywhere near that far. Even in the worst case, on the cheapest ticket, cancelling an Amtrak ticket means you lose all of 10% of the ticket value. How many airlines give you that? Most airline tickets are not refundable at all, and even a modification costs you $150 at a minimum.

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But not all Amtrak tickets are refundable, minus 10%. There's the rub.

But not all Amtrak tickets are refundable, minus 10%. There's the rub.
What tickets are non-refundable? From Amtrak's website:



* Sleeping Car Reservations: Refundable if the reservation is canceled at least 15 days prior to travel; refund fee applies.
* First Class & non-Acela Business Class: Refundable; no refund fee applies if the reservation is canceled prior to scheduled departure.
* Reserved Coach & Acela Express Business Class: Refundable; no refund fee applies if the reservation is canceled at least 24 hours prior to scheduled departure.
* Unreserved Rail Fare: Refundable; refund fee applies.

Are there other tickets that are totally not refundable? To me, refundable with a 10% fee still means refundable.

What tickets are non-refundable? From Amtrak's website:



Are there other tickets that are totally not refundable? To me, refundable with a 10% fee still means refundable.

The 14-day advance purchase fares on the NEC are non-refundable.

The 14-day advance purchase fares on the NEC are non-refundable.
OK. I wonder why the website doesn't say that?

Anyway, at least you get the full value of the ticket in a voucher that can be used within a year. That's still better than the airlines will do for you (by which I mean you will be dinged $150 at a minimum for a change on a non-refundable air ticket).

OK. I wonder why the website doesn't say that?



It does say it if you click on the terms & conditions associated with the fare:

Non-refundable after ticket has been purchased.
Exchanges permitted for other rail fare purchases.

The link is not as obvious as it could be, but on the whole, the T&C are relatively simple to read and understand.

The link is not as obvious as it could be, but on the whole, the T&C are relatively simple to read and understand.

I was referring to the web page noting the new refunds policy, linked in PHLviaUS's first post. It seemed to me that the list of ticket types on that page covered everything, but I guess I was wrong.

Yes I had the 14 day advance that I cancelled. So no option for a refund. And I have several more trips booked which I'm certain I will have to change so I not really looking forward to electronically unusable evouchers!

Have you seen the line at the WIL station in the evening when there are supposedly 3 windows open but 2 of the agents are chatting away with their colleagues and only 1 window is actually serving customers! I'm not condoning the $150 change fee on the airlines but at least they let you use the vouchers online (US Scare may be an exception but who flies them anyway) plus United even offers a 24-hour confirmed change for free for Plats and 1K. As a S+ I get nothing from Amtrak except when the train breaks down frequently in PHL, I get get free bag of pretzels, coke from the lounge and IRROPS indigestion!

I'm hoping that Amtrak will come thru with using the vouchers online but I have very low confidence on the estimated time of software upgrade.

It does say it if you click on the terms & conditions associated with the fare:

And how many casual travelers (not those of us on here) click that itty bitty link? Amtrak needs to make it explicitly clear that these fares are non-refundable. In many instances, it is the only fare offered when booking in advance.

And don't even get me started on eVouchers that you have to stand in line to redeem.

Have you seen the line at the WIL station in the evening when there are supposedly 3 windows open but 2 of the agents are chatting away with their colleagues and only 1 window is actually serving customers!
Sadly, yes. WIL is my home station...

As a S+ I get nothing from Amtrak
Here is a great, great idea for a new S+ benefit: refundability of any ticket without penalty! AGR Insider, are you reading this?

And don't even get me started on eVouchers that you have to stand in line to redeem.

You can also call up Amtrak on the phone to use your eVoucher; the ticket window isn't your only option. Yes, I know that's not as nice as using it via Amtrak.com, but it does get you out of the line at the ticket window.

And AFAIK, they are indeed working on allowing for the usage of the eVoucher via the online system, but I have no idea just when that change will go live.

You can also call up Amtrak on the phone to use your eVoucher

According to Amtrak's website, (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1248544420619) you can't do that:

For now, eVouchers may only be redeemed at an Amtrak ticket office, not at Quik-Trak, online at Amtrak.com or by phone. Make sure to bring the eVoucher receipt (or the information necessary for the agent to locate the eVoucher) and proper identification to the ticket office for redemption.
I do think this is completely ridiculous.

It does say it if you click on the terms & conditions associated with the fare:

The link is not as obvious as it could be, but on the whole, the T&C are relatively simple to read and understand.

And how does one deal with:
Other restrictions may apply.

Pulled from an attempted booking for SAC to BDF on Aug 31.
I've tried calling Amtrak to find out what these restrictions might be and they can't answer that.

It's no wonder no one actually reads T&Cs and the such. IF you can comprehend complex English, they always have an out somewhere.

I try to follow the rules, but when I see this I know they are not willing to play fair.

Sadly, yes. WIL is my home station...


Here is a great, great idea for a new S+ benefit: refundability of any ticket without penalty! AGR Insider, are you reading this?

^^^^

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Seems to be YMMV on USA-RAIL use of e vouchers. I've been told so far by the phone reservations agents that I have to do it at the window.

Is it always true that the 14 day AP (E bucket) fares are non refundable? I just cancelled one recently (not within 24 hours) and got a full refund. Go figure.

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Seems to be YMMV on USA-RAIL use of e vouchers. I've been told so far by the phone reservations agents that I have to do it at the window.

Is it always true that the 14 day AP (E bucket) fares are non refundable? I just cancelled one recently (not within 24 hours) and got a full refund. Go figure.

Recently before or after August 12th?

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Seems to be YMMV on USA-RAIL use of e vouchers. I've been told so far by the phone reservations agents that I have to do it at the window.

Is it always true that the 14 day AP (E bucket) fares are non refundable? I just cancelled one recently (not within 24 hours) and got a full refund. Go figure.

Recently before or after August 12th?

After (this morning, in fact). I have a vague recollection that I also did this successfully before 8/12, but I'm less sure about that.

I do see, though, that nonrefundable is clearly stated in the T and C. I wonder if the policy was changed and the webpage is old, or if this is just a case where policy and practice diverge, as used to be true for unprinted tickets and the refund fee.

What happened to the old if canceled same day you get all of your money back, even the 10% policy? Some times QT will let you print a ticket for a train that has already departed, does that mean one now has to eat that ticket in the form of a voucher? Can refunds still be handled @ the counter or must they be mailed in? I for one long for the days of paper tickets again. Ticket lifts were faster and they didnt have this insane change policy.

Just called Amtrak's 800 phone and spoke to a rep. Purpose of call was to find out what impact new rules would have on my practice of buying Auto Train tix far in advance, knowing I could, if necessary, cancel later with 100% refund as long as I hadn't received paper tix. Rep told me that only change is that sleeper tix must be cancelled 15 days (maybe she said 14?) in advance to get that refund. Otherwise, she said, and she repeated, the tix is fully 100% refundable with no fees, if cancelled within the proper time. She insisted this was the rule. Make sense?
EDITED to add: Second call to second agent disabused me of above comment. Second agent said first agent wrong. Said entire ticket, bedroom fee, fare, and vehicle fare, subject to 10% penalty. Airline option now more feasible with new Amtrak refund policy. Previously, flexibility made Amtrak the best choice for us to Florida.

Airline option now more feasible with new Amtrak refund policy. Previously, flexibility made Amtrak the best choice for us to Florida.

How is traveling by plane more feasible now? Is it more flexible? Do you retain 100% value in a voucher for future use? Can you get a 90% refund?

It seems to me that people are making mountains out of molehills with this policy change. I'm dumbfounded so many are comparing Amtrak to airlines or claiming Amtrak is now worse than airlines. :confused:

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Amtrak distinguished itself as a flexible way to travel. As the powers that be begin to chip away at that flexibility, the airlines seem a little more favorable. I have switched some travel back to UA and DL but won't be entirely dumping Amtrak - at least not yet.

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Amtrak distinguished itself as a flexible way to travel. As the powers that be begin to chip away at that flexibility, the airlines seem a little more favorable. I have switched some travel back to UA and DL but won't be entirely dumping Amtrak - at least not yet.

I totally agree. The flexibility is gone. I will still use Amtrak if I have to but now the airlines are a serious competition with the lack of flexibility. Plus AGR transfers to United are gone so pretty much the AGR points have lost value for me. With my lifestyle I will never be able to take a long distance train in the near future so rail redemption has no value. Airline miles on the other hand are precious to me.

I'm even planning to cancel my Chase Amtrak card as I don't see much value to it execpt for 5% rebate on redemptions which I dont plan to do. On the other hand Chase Sapphire Preferred is far more useful to buy Amtrak tickets since you get 2 UR points which can be transferred to United.

So yes the powers to be are slowly chipping away at the benefits and making it less competitive!

How is traveling by plane more feasible now? Is it more flexible? Do you retain 100% value in a voucher for future use? Can you get a 90% refund?

It seems to me that people are making mountains out of molehills with this policy change. I'm dumbfounded so many are comparing Amtrak to airlines or claiming Amtrak is now worse than airlines. :confused:

+1

As someone who lives halfway between NY and DC, with very frequent trips to NY, it's hard to imagine how I would shift my travel to an airline, so even if Amtrak did get materially more difficult to use, I would still use it. However, this is NOT really a big change or a big deal. Until the e-vouchers become redeemable online, it may be a slight hassle--but I'm at the train station many times each month anyway, so redeeming at the counter is not a giant problem. Most of my ticket changes involve modifications, not outright cancellations, so I don't see myself having a big e-voucher balance in any case.

Someone on one of the Amtrak boards is saying it's going to get even worse - that all refunds will have a 10% penalty, and none will be allowed within 14 days of travel. E-Vouchers will be the norm instead.

Surely this isn't true?!?!?!

Someone on one of the Amtrak boards is saying it's going to get even worse - that all refunds will have a 10% penalty, and none will be allowed within 14 days of travel. E-Vouchers will be the norm instead.

Surely this isn't true?!?!?!

That is only for sleeping car reservations on the long distance trains. See Post #1 of this topic for the new refund rules for different Amtrak services.

Ugh. I had a backup reservation for the day after tomorrow (Monday) in case my flight didn't make it in tonight in time for my Sunday morning train. I went to cancel my reservation and was going to be charged a $5 fee for refunding my ticket. It took me a minute to figure out why, since it's well more than 24 hours before departure: it's because I'm headed from PGH to MJY, but I need to connect to a Keystone in ELT because the Pennsylvanian doesn't stop in MJY. So the 8-minute connecting train causes the entire itinerary to be subject to the refund fee. Not a happy camper. :mad:

Ugh. I had a backup reservation for the day after tomorrow (Monday) in case my flight didn't make it in tonight in time for my Sunday morning train. I went to cancel my reservation and was going to be charged a $5 fee for refunding my ticket. It took me a minute to figure out why, since it's well more than 24 hours before departure: it's because I'm headed from PGH to MJY, but I need to connect to a Keystone in ELT because the Pennsylvanian doesn't stop in MJY. So the 8-minute connecting train causes the entire itinerary to be subject to the refund fee. Not a happy camper. :mad:
Oh, that is NASTY! One short unreserved segment (always subject to the 10% refund fee) triggers a refund fee for all segments of the trip, even those that should be 100% refundable. Picture connecting from a BOS-PHL Acela F trip to a short Keystone ride to Ardmore. Would that short $6 trip on the unreserved Keystone subject the $250 Acela trip to the 10% fee? Sounds like it would.

If Amtrak really wants to be an airline, maybe they should just buy some used 737's and have at it. Amtrak Air. Now that's a scary thought.

Sounds like we have a new game now and need to learn the new rules. Probably best now to split reservations into logical groups and not complete trips to avoid being caught by the auto-cancellation process. I've started doing this with the airlines so I have the option to change outbounds and returns without being tripped up with restrictions tied to the other portion.

I see an upside to the ticket scanning. Since there is no need to process a piece of paper through the system, IF a conductor does not have time to get to me before de-training to scan my ticket, I can call in and Amtrak can make the change in their system from being a no-show to lifted and that should trigger AGR credit.

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It will be interesting to see how these new policies affect ridership. 195 today is the lightest I've ever seen on a Sunday. Could be anecdotal, but time will tell. I know I won't be booking several NER trips months in advance anymore, since the flexibility is gone.

It will be interesting to see how these new policies affect ridership. 195 today is the lightest I've ever seen on a Sunday. Could be anecdotal, but time will tell. I know I won't be booking several NER trips months in advance anymore, since the flexibility is gone.I would venture that 95% of the people on that train are unaware of the new policy, that 90% of those that are aware do not factor in flexibility when deciding to take Amtrak, and that 90% of those who do factor in flexibility wouldn't let a $5-$10 fee change their decision. :)

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It will be interesting to see how these new policies affect ridership. 195 today is the lightest I've ever seen on a Sunday. Could be anecdotal, but time will tell. I know I won't be booking several NER trips months in advance anymore, since the flexibility is gone.I would venture that 95% of the people on that train are unaware of the new policy, that 90% of those that are aware do not factor in flexibility when deciding to take Amtrak, and that 90% of those who do factor in flexibility wouldn't let a $5-$10 fee change their decision. :)

Good points, but you imply that all NER fares are refundable, with penalty. That is not the case. Anyone with a 14-day advance fare would be stuck with a credit voucher--one that must be redeemed in person at a ticket counter.

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Good points, but you imply that all NER fares are refundable, with penalty. That is not the case. Anyone with a 14-day advance fare would be stuck with a credit voucher--one that must be redeemed in person at a ticket counter.

I'll just be sure to book any advance NER purchases at the AAA rate so I don't get stuck with a voucher. I would rather pay a little more and have the flexibility of a refundable fare. What is frustrating is that amtrak doesn't by default give you that offer with the 25% off advance purchase rate. It would be a nice addition if they let you choose the E bucket or the D bucket rate, specifying that the E bucket rate was nonrefundable, right on the screen, like southwest does, for example.

I'll just be sure to book any advance NER purchases at the AAA rate so I don't get stuck with a voucher. I would rather pay a little more and have the flexibility of a refundable fare. What is frustrating is that amtrak doesn't by default give you that offer with the 25% off advance purchase rate. It would be a nice addition if they let you choose the E bucket or the D bucket rate, specifying that the E bucket rate was nonrefundable, right on the screen, like southwest does, for example.

Amtrak is trying to do too much for the technology they have. They are trying to sell cheap nonrefundable fares when their technology doesn't allow them to clarify that they are nonrefundable. They are trying to restrict refunds to eVouchers when their technology doesn't allow them to make eVouchers usable online (my main complaint--yes, I'd rather have the previous policy, but I'd be willing to live with vouchers if I didn't have to drag my rear end 20 minutes to the Amtrak station every time I want to book a new trip).

Before they make policy changes like this, they should ensure the technology is there to support the results of the changes.

I'll just be sure to book any advance NER purchases at the AAA rate so I don't get stuck with a voucher. I would rather pay a little more and have the flexibility of a refundable fare. What is frustrating is that amtrak doesn't by default give you that offer with the 25% off advance purchase rate. It would be a nice addition if they let you choose the E bucket or the D bucket rate, specifying that the E bucket rate was nonrefundable, right on the screen, like southwest does, for example.

Keep in mind that you'll be paying a premium of 45% or so for this privilege.

The poster who says "it's a new game....new rules" is right. For instance:

I went to cancel my reservation and was going to be charged a $5 fee for refunding my ticket. It took me a minute to figure out why, since it's well more than 24 hours before departure: it's because I'm headed from PGH to MJY, but I need to connect to a Keystone in ELT because the Pennsylvanian doesn't stop in MJY. So the 8-minute connecting train causes the entire itinerary to be subject to the refund fee. Not a happy camper. :mad:

You're right to be mad, but under the "new game" the easy workaround for that scenario is to simply book PGH to HAR and buy the unreserved Keystone ticket upon arrival in HAR. Or just buy it online separately from the first segment. There's no particular reason to buy those two segments on the same itinerary, since the price is the same whether you buy them together or separately, is it not? It's not a question of preserving a guaranteed connection in this case, either. So you would have simply refunded the Pennsylvanian segment with no penalty, and then had an unreserved HAR-MJY ticket that you could just use some other time up to a year later. Or if you absolutely didn't think you were going to ride HAR-MJY in the next year, you could get that refunded for a much smaller penalty then the combined itinerary.

Oh, that is NASTY! One short unreserved segment (always subject to the 10% refund fee) triggers a refund fee for all segments of the trip, even those that should be 100% refundable. Picture connecting from a BOS-PHL Acela F trip to a short Keystone ride to Ardmore. Would that short $6 trip on the unreserved Keystone subject the $250 Acela trip to the 10% fee? Sounds like it would.



Likewise, in this scenario you would simply book BOS-PHL and then the Keystone segment separately. (Or just ride SEPTA out to Ardmore, might be quicker depending on when you arrive).

I just noticed that, as of now, Amtrak's web site (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1248544420619) specifically references the 10% refund fee only in conjunction with refundable paper tickets: "There will be a 10% refund fee if the return of a paper value ticket created the eVoucher."

Later in the page it makes a second reference to paper tickets: "When a printed ticket is exchanged, and the new fare is lower, the system will now automatically create an eVoucher for the remaining balance. Part or all of that amount may be refundable. An eVoucher created by a downgrade exchange is refundable if the associated fare rules allow but will be subject to a 10% refund fee."

So as of now, at least, it appears that any e-ticketed transaction that is refundable is not subject to the 10% fee. Of course, we are talking about Amtrak here, so YMMV.

Keep in mind that you'll be paying a premium of 45% or so for this privilege.
Well when the normal ticket I buy on the regional is from BOS - PVD the difference is only $1.60. I'll rather pay $12.60 and be able to cancel up to 24 hours ahead of time than $11 and only get an e-voucher that can only be redeemed in person at a ticket window.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8320/4.5.0.81 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

Keep in mind that you'll be paying a premium of 45% or so for this privilege.
Well when the normal ticket I buy on the regional is from BOS - PVD the difference is only $1.60. I'll rather pay $12.60 and be able to cancel up to 24 hours ahead of time than $11 and only get an e-voucher that can only be redeemed in person at a ticket window.

Ah, makes sense in that case. WAS-NYP is $72 vs. $49.

I totally agree. The flexibility is gone. I will still use Amtrak if I have to but now the airlines are a serious competition with the lack of flexibility. Plus AGR transfers to United are gone so pretty much the AGR points have lost value for me. With my lifestyle I will never be able to take a long distance train in the near future so rail redemption has no value. Airline miles on the other hand are precious to me.

I'm even planning to cancel my Chase Amtrak card as I don't see much value to it execpt for 5% rebate on redemptions which I dont plan to do. On the other hand Chase Sapphire Preferred is far more useful to buy Amtrak tickets since you get 2 UR points which can be transferred to United.

So yes the powers to be are slowly chipping away at the benefits and making it less competitive!

Then you're doing it wrong. I have hit over 80,000 AGR points year to date between the AGR card, rental cars, and double dipping at Hilton. All without paying for more than one Amtrak ticket, which I ended up not even using (turned into 200$ voucher). If you are a frequent traveller, AGR is one of the easiest programs to earn high value points on without actually using the service! Our trip booked for December would have cost more than $2400. We are doing it on points. AGR is great for points redemptions still! Much better than airline miles, assuming you're looking for the rail "experience" and dont really care when you get there.

You're right to be mad, but under the "new game" the easy workaround for that scenario is to simply book PGH to HAR and buy the unreserved Keystone ticket upon arrival in HAR. Or just buy it online separately from the first segment. There's no particular reason to buy those two segments on the same itinerary, since the price is the same whether you buy them together or separately, is it not? It's not a question of preserving a guaranteed connection in this case, either. So you would have simply refunded the Pennsylvanian segment with no penalty, and then had an unreserved HAR-MJY ticket that you could just use some other time up to a year later. Or if you absolutely didn't think you were going to ride HAR-MJY in the next year, you could get that refunded for a much smaller penalty then the combined itinerary.

Likewise, in this scenario you would simply book BOS-PHL and then the Keystone segment separately. (Or just ride SEPTA out to Ardmore, might be quicker depending on when you arrive).

Depending on the specific city pairs, it doesn't always fare out the same. When it does, I'll definitely do as you suggest. But I feel kinda cheated having bought this a month or more before they announced the change in policy and not being given the chance to factor that into my purchase decision.

Then you're doing it wrong. I have hit over 80,000 AGR points year to date between the AGR card, rental cars, and double dipping at Hilton. All without paying for more than one Amtrak ticket, which I ended up not even using (turned into 200$ voucher). If you are a frequent traveller, AGR is one of the easiest programs to earn high value points on without actually using the service! Our trip booked for December would have cost more than $2400. We are doing it on points. AGR is great for points redemptions still! Much better than airline miles, assuming you're looking for the rail "experience" and dont really care when you get there.

It maybe for you. You could have put all that travel on Sapphire Preferred and had close to that many miles on United which could have got you close to Business first ticket to several destinations in the world. For me that has no comparison to the rickety Amtrak travel domestically when domestic fares are very cheap and car travel is the way to go in good ole' US! Also as I mentioned before I travel up and down the NE corridor so much for work that any long distance Amtrak personal is not feasible due to time constraints and lack of interest. I rather take that quick plane ride during my precious vacation time and spend more time vacationing i.e beach, park, dining etc.

As an update to my previous post, I just looked into cancelling an Acela reservation I have, and the web site would indeed charge me the 10% fee to refund to a credit card (or no fee to refund to an evoucher), even though this reservation has only ever lived life as an eticket.

. But I feel kinda cheated having bought this a month or more before they announced the change in policy and not being given the chance to factor that into my purchase decision.

Definitely agree with you there.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8320/4.5.0.81 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

As an update to my previous post, I just looked into cancelling an Acela reservation I have, and the web site would indeed charge me the 10% fee to refund to a credit card (or no fee to refund to an evoucher), even though this reservation has only ever lived life as an eticket.

What class of service? What timeframe?

What class of service? What timeframe?

Acela business class, RTE-NYP-RTE, for travel tomorrow.

As an aside, I ended up just changing the dates of travel, rather than going through with the full cancellation. Since I booked tickets for a few weeks out, the fare was $17 less, which Amtrak issued as a refund to my credit card with no fee applied.

Acela business class, RTE-NYP-RTE, for travel tomorrow.

As an aside, I ended up just changing the dates of travel, rather than going through with the full cancellation. Since I booked tickets for a few weeks out, the fare was $17 less, which Amtrak issued as a refund to my credit card with no fee applied.

Yes, the new rules state that an acela BC reservation cancelled less than 24 hours in advance is subject to the 10% refund fee.

One should be able to cancel an acela BC trip 25hours+ prior to the trip with no refund fee.

As an aside, I ended up just changing the dates of travel, rather than going through with the full cancellation. Since I booked tickets for a few weeks out, the fare was $17 less, which Amtrak issued as a refund to my credit card with no fee applied.So you can change the dates of travel, within 24 hours, for no fee?

Wouldn't that be a loophole around the inside-24h-cancel fee?

Well, not exactly. You're only getting refunded the difference in fare (and if it's more, you'll have to pay). Other than that, it's no different than getting a voucher and then using that toward a new ticket.

So you can change the dates of travel, within 24 hours, for no fee?

Wouldn't that be a loophole around the inside-24h-cancel fee?

We have a winner. I just clicked on the cancel link for my new itinerary, and sure enough, no refund fee would have been charged for a refund back to my credit card (I did not go through with it, however, since I do intend to travel...).

Well, not exactly. You're only getting refunded the difference in fare (and if it's more, you'll have to pay). Other than that, it's no different than getting a voucher and then using that toward a new ticket.

Also you can only do limited modifications such as you cannot get a AAA discount or any other discount on the modified reservation even if you are more than 3 days (or meet the requirements of the discount fare). Amtrak will happily charge you additional fare when the change warrants but it won't let you add any discount codes on modifications.

Unless it works in your favor you are better off taking that non-electronic eVoucher and schlepping it to the window for a future reservation.

Welcome to the stone-age!

No, what nerd is suggesting is a two-step method to avoid a 10% refund penalty if cancelling Acela business class travel within the 24 hour window:

1) Change travel dates to >24 hours away. If the new dates happen to be cheaper, you will get a refund of the difference (although in theory you could also change to more expensive trains, that would just be silly).
2) Cancel your new reservation. You receive a full refund of the balance because it is now >24 hours from departure of your new trains.

Basically, the new ticket is not "tainted" with the refund penalty associated with the original funds. This saves you the step of having to use an eVoucher in person at a ticket office to book new travel.

Never mind.

It maybe for you. You could have put all that travel on Sapphire Preferred and had close to that many miles on United which could have got you close to Business first ticket to several destinations in the world. For me that has no comparison to the rickety Amtrak travel domestically when domestic fares are very cheap and car travel is the way to go in good ole' US! Also as I mentioned before I travel up and down the NE corridor so much for work that any long distance Amtrak personal is not feasible due to time constraints and lack of interest. I rather take that quick plane ride during my precious vacation time and spend more time vacationing i.e beach, park, dining etc.

Totally understand, but this is the Amtrak Guest Rewards forum, not the United forum....I was just stating that AGR is pretty easy to earn points on. I choose to earn them on the card, because I already score all the miles I can use from Delta by flying and other programs. Probably will change my hotel earnings from AGR to Delta again, now that I've built up enough for 2 2 zone trips (already booked one for December to Miami to hit the keys). But for maximum cash for little outlay? AGR is pretty good, my Miami trip would have cost over $2400-I earned the points in about 5 months just doing my thing. After a while, you gotta mix it up, can only use so many hotel points and airline miles, I decided to branch out, and score some train points. We don't travel by train often, and never as an actual method of travel in and of itself, we just like the land cruise aspect of it. Once every couple of years is enough for us. Next year, its J to Germany on DL. Frankly, with all the travel I do, we usually hook up the camper, and head for the hills to kayak, rather than climb on another plane to stay in a hotel! But every now and then, the wife wants to go somewhere, so I oblige. Gotta keep the peace!

......But every now and then, the wife wants to go somewhere, so I oblige. Gotta keep the peace!

Now that part I totally agree and empathize with you!

This past Monday, I was unable to take train 181 for which I had an eticket. Over the past week, when I was unable to take the train and if I had not cancelled ahead, the system automatically issued me an e-voucher (which was delivered via email). However, on Monday, no e-voucher appeared. I went to the desk at Union Station only to be told that the ticket was automatically lifted since I had not called ahead to cancel. I had to call customer relations and they helped me get a refund. They also told me that going forward, that if I was a no-show, the ticket would automatically be considered use.

I tried to look but was unable to find this policy in writing anywhere. Does anyone else know about this?

Thanks.

This past Monday, I was unable to take train 181 for which I had an eticket. Over the past week, when I was unable to take the train and if I had not cancelled ahead, the system automatically issued me an e-voucher (which was delivered via email). However, on Monday, no e-voucher appeared. I went to the desk at Union Station only to be told that the ticket was automatically lifted since I had not called ahead to cancel. I had to call customer relations and they helped me get a refund. They also told me that going forward, that if I was a no-show, the ticket would automatically be considered use.

I tried to look but was unable to find this policy in writing anywhere. Does anyone else know about this?

Thanks.

This directly contradicts their new refund policy (http://www.amtrak.com/refund-and-exchange-policy). Although the refund fee of 10% would apply to your situation for a cash refund (or an eVoucher should be issued with no fee), the ticket should not have been lifted/cancelled according to their published policy.

Specifically, for the Northeast Corridor (or any other reserved ticket): "Reserved Coach and Acela Express Business Class: If canceled more than 24 hours before scheduled departure, the ticket is fully refundable. If canceled within 24 hours of departure or not canceled a refund fee applies" (italics mine). The only exception would be if part of your one-way trip had a more restrictive refund rule (which would only be true if you were connecting to/from a sleeper or used some sort of special non-refundable AP fare).

There have been lots of reports here and elsewhere of situations where ongoing reservations have been cancelled when an earlier segment was not scanned and the passenger was assumed a no-show. I wonder if this is Amtrak's "fix" for that problem: assume a missed scan was actually a used segment and keep the downstream segments alive? Of course, if that is true, that just substitutes one problem for another.

There have been lots of reports here and elsewhere of situations where ongoing reservations have been cancelled when an earlier segment was not scanned and the passenger was assumed a no-show. I wonder if this is Amtrak's "fix" for that problem: assume a missed scan was actually a used segment and keep the downstream segments alive? Of course, if that is true, that just substitutes one problem for another.

Nope, this is not a fix for the ongoing connection problem. Yes, it can help towards fixing the problem, but that's not why that function is there.

Nope, this is not a fix for the ongoing connection problem. Yes, it can help towards fixing the problem, but that's not why that function is there.So... why is that function there?

How is it that the system can assume you were a no-show, and cancel reservations (in the event your ticket wasn't scanned), and also assume you were there, and lift the ticket (in the event that your ticket wasn't scanned)?

To the casual observer, it all makes a whole lot of no sense. :)

Nope, this is not a fix for the ongoing connection problem. Yes, it can help towards fixing the problem, but that's not why that function is there.
Why is it there?

Why is it there?

To recognize revenue for that train. I think it's a way of trying to account for the conductors not always getting to everyone on a busy train; just speculation on my part.

And to Nerd, I don't believe that the system can do both. I think it's more of a corridor thing.

And to Nerd, I don't believe that the system can do both. I think it's more of a corridor thing.But there are reports that it does behave both ways in the event of an unscanned ticket - there are two possible outcomes in the system.

I am missing something in what you are saying.

No shows happen at a conductor level as they indicate that they'd swept the train for X station. At that point in time, a continuing reservation would be cancelled.

Revenue recognition happens after the train finishes its run and I don't believe that it will reinstate the continuing reservations automatically. I also don't think that they run RR every time, there are certain conditions for when it gets run I believe.

No shows happen at a conductor level as they indicate that they'd swept the train for X station. At that point in time, a continuing reservation would be cancelled.Ah, so conductors indicate that they've swept for a station.

That is new information and does explain how things work.

I read Amtrak's policies and became a bit confused as they use "refund" more often than "cancellation" and I can't see why they can't lump them together.

I will be taking the Wolverine from Ann Arbor, MI to Battle Creek, MI either Nov 15 or Nov 16th, but I'm not sure which day I will be going yet. The ticket prices double if I buy on the day of travel so I was thinking that I could book the trip on both days, and then cancel it if I can't go. I'd be OK with a voucher since I'd use it, but here's the part that's unclear.... Do I have to cancel it before the day and time of travel, or can I cancel/trade the ticket after the train has already left without me? If I'm charged the fee of 10% or $5 each way, I'll gladly pay it.

With the exception of sleeper cancellation (must be done before scheduled departure) there is no penalty for no-showing as long as you are willing to accept the E-Voucher. Remember Amtrak has the "duplicate booking" policy but you should be fine if it is separate days and the times for the train do not overlap each other.

If a new ticket that I want to buy costs more than an E-voucher that I have, can I also pay by credit card for the ticket and combine the two forms of payment?

Does the original form of payment matter? I get pre-tax transit benefits at work (in the form of a MasterCard) and can use those on Amtrak; if I have to cancel the original ticket I buy with those benefits, I'd like to be sure that the E-voucher that I'd get would be useable in the future for even partial payment of a larger ticket.

Thanks.

Yes, you should be able to use multiple forms of payment in that scenario.

Say you purchased a ticket for $50. You decide to cancel it inside of the refund window. You receive an E-Voucher valid for 1 year from date of issue for $50. Now you want to purchase a ticket for $75. You use your original $50 E-Voucher as your form of payment. Your Balance Due would be $25. You can pay that just as if you were purchasing a $25 ticket.

In the reverse scenario... your new ticket is $45 (we'll just say you now have a 10% discount as a hypothetical scenario). You would pay using your $50 E-Voucher. You would receive a new E-Voucher for $5 valid for a year from the new date of issue.

Just think of an E-Voucher as a travel coupon. It is valid a "discount" per say for the amount shown. If you don't use it in a year, it expires. If you don't use it all at once you get a new "coupon" valid for a new year. If you require more than the "coupon" provides for you will have a balance due.

Just think of it as you have a $50 coupon. Your new ticket is $75. You are using your coupon to get a $50 discount off your $75 ticket price. So you can pay just as if you were purchasing a ticket just for the $25 using a valid form of payment.

Does that make any sense?

The one disadvantage is that if there are online-only discounts, you cannot take advantage of it with the e-Voucher. For example, the Capitol Corridor has a 50% off deal for 3 day advance purchases on the weekends. That is only available through the special link, as there is no H or V discount code assigned to it (publicly). Also, you would have to show your AAA or Student Advantage card at the counter when purchasing tickets, rather than just entering the number online.

According to the eVoucher site you can get a refund check by mailing your eVoucher reciept to the Amtrak Refunds Office. Is this true? I mailed 3 of them more than a week ago and haven't heard anything back. here is the launguage from the site

Refundable: returned in cash (at stations only) as a refund check (through an Amtrak Refund office only) or credit back to the credit card used to pay for the original ticket. There will be a 10% refund fee if the return of a paper value ticket created the eVoucher.

According to the eVoucher site you can get a refund check by mailing your eVoucher reciept to the Amtrak Refunds Office. Is this true? I mailed 3 of them more than a week ago and haven't heard anything back. here is the launguage from the site

Refundable: returned in cash (at stations only) as a refund check (through an Amtrak Refund office only) or credit back to the credit card used to pay for the original ticket. There will be a 10% refund fee if the return of a paper value ticket created the eVoucher.

Hi rdorman,

Generally, the Amtrak Refunds office in Philadelphia needs some more time to process mail-in requests. The mail alone could take up to a week to arrive in both directions, depending on where you live. Add on top of that a couple of weeks for processing. If you don't get a response within 4 weeks from the time you mailed the materials, you can always call 1-800-USA-RAIL during business hours and ask for the Refunds/Research department. They can investigate further - hope this helps!

I believe they felt their ears burning as your typed. Just this morning I checked my credit card statement and saw the credits from those vouchers posted. I'd imagine the written response will take a bit longer.

As always - Thank you very much for monitoring this board. It is really refreshing to get an inside and fast response to these questions.

Got my notification of being in the charter member list for Select Executive last week as well. I know that this "++" tier was suggested on this board in the past and Amtrak following through on that suggestion makes me happy to renew my commitment to using the system.. with 32k+ TPQ's this year alone so far it has become a valuable part of my routine.

I believe they felt their ears burning as your typed. Just this morning I checked my credit card statement and saw the credits from those vouchers posted. I'd imagine the written response will take a bit longer.

As always - Thank you very much for monitoring this board. It is really refreshing to get an inside and fast response to these questions.

Got my notification of being in the charter member list for Select Executive last week as well. I know that this "++" tier was suggested on this board in the past and Amtrak following through on that suggestion makes me happy to renew my commitment to using the system.. with 32k+ TPQ's this year alone so far it has become a valuable part of my routine.


We appreciate your feedback and, most of all, your business!

I am considering booking a trip that consists of a round-trip with trains in the following order:

Outbound:
-Unreserved coach segment
-Reserved coach segment
Return:
-Reserved coach segment (arriving just before midnight)
-Unreserved coach segment (departing just after midnight)

I am a bit confused by the seemingly contradictory wording on the refund fee page (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267362242), specifically the following lines (emphasis mine):

A “trip” is a grouping of continuous travel. Example: A booking Wilmington - Washington - Chicago - Seattle with same-day connections is one trip.

Refund rules are applied based on the scheduled departure for the first travel in a trip.

When more than one type of travel is in a trip, the refund policy is applied to the entire trip based on the primary travel type in the trip which is determined in the following order:

...

Reserved Coach and Acela Express Business Class
Unreserved Coach

So, my questions:

1) Does the fact that my third and fourth segments are broken up by a few hours before and after midnight make them not count as a single "trip" (since the example given specifies "same-day connections"?

2) Are the refund rules based on my first departure (an unreserved segment, meaning a penalty applies at any time), or based on "the primary travel type, which is determined in the following order" and lists reserved coach as "higher up" in that order (i.e., my trip is considered a reserved coach trip, meaning I get a full refund as long as I cancel more than 24 hours before scheduled departure)?

3) Just to confirm, if I cancel the entire trip (outbound and return) more than 24 hours before my scheduled initial departure, will I receive:
a) A full refund minus 10% of the value of the unreserved segments (minimum $5) because the trip contains unreserved segments,
b) A full refund with no fee because the "primary travel type" was "reserved coach,"
c) A refund minus 10% of the value of the fourth and final unreserved segment (minimum $5) because that departs on a different calendar day than my preceding reserved segment?

FWIW, I think it's particularly dirty of Amtrak to charge a refund penalty on unreserved segments regardless of date. Tickets for unreserved trains do not affect the ability of Amtrak to sell seats (so I'm not "holding inventory" from anyone else wishing to purchase). There is absolutely no reason to make the unreserved coach policy worse than the reserved coach policy. If Amtrak must charge a fee for canceling an unreserved ticket (something that makes ZERO sense to me), then at least it should follow the reserved coach policy and be fully refundable if canceled more than 24 hours before the effective date on the ticket.

I would be less frustrated and willing to accept eVouchers at 100% value if they were redeemable online. I'm frustrated that Amtrak implemented this refund penalty program before online redemption of eVouchers was programmed. The two should have been released simultaneously.

My last three trips to New York have seen me drive up (and park either in Queens or at Metropark and take NJ Transit) specifically because of the refund penalty and lack of sensible same-day change options. I hope Amtrak knows they are losing business because of this.

jackal, can you provide actual train numbers and example dates to give me an example of the specific itinerary you're asking about? This will be more helpful in terms of securing an answer for you.

jackal, can you provide actual train numbers and example dates to give me an example of the specific itinerary you're asking about? This will be more helpful in terms of securing an answer for you.

Nevermind, I just decided to drive. That way, I can stay later if need be. I would have for sure taken the train if Amtrak provided a sensible same-day change policy like I am used to with United, and I would have booked a res to hold my itinerary and consider taking the train while waiting for your answer if the threat of a refund fee weren't imposed on me. Now, it's past the 3-day-advance deadline to book with my AAA discount (another aggravating policy change made not too long ago), so I'll just drive instead.

But thank you for your response. Isn't it a bit late for you to be working? :p

Now, it's past the 3-day-advance deadline to book with my AAA discount (another aggravating policy change made not too long ago), so I'll just drive instead.Maybe Amtrak should have a 0% AAA discount policy. A couple quick thoughts:

1) It matches the AAA discount you are used to getting from United.
2) It simplifies your decision matrix.

^^

:p

Nevermind, I just decided to drive. That way, I can stay later if need be. I would have for sure taken the train if Amtrak provided a sensible same-day change policy like I am used to with United, and I would have booked a res to hold my itinerary and consider taking the train while waiting for your answer if the threat of a refund fee weren't imposed on me. Now, it's past the 3-day-advance deadline to book with my AAA discount (another aggravating policy change made not too long ago), so I'll just drive instead.

But thank you for your response. Isn't it a bit late for you to be working? :p

I work around the clock to make sure your questions are answered. :D

Maybe Amtrak should have a 0% AAA discount policy. A couple quick thoughts:

1) It matches the AAA discount you are used to getting from United.
2) It simplifies your decision matrix.

^^

:p

And a $200 change/refund fee, right? ;)

And a $200 change/refund fee, right? ;)

United doesn't have to compete with my car.

Amtrak does. :)

(BTW, Alaska Airlines waives change fees for me and other MVP Golds. But that doesn't matter--comparing Amtrak to airlines is, as I believe nerd has previously pointed out--an apples-to-oranges comparison. Amtrak has more in common with SEPTA, NJT, and my car than an airline. Oh, look--all three of those--SEPTA, NJT, and my car--have sensible same-day-change policies. ;))

And a $200 change/refund fee, right? ;)
Not for same-day changes on UA. Fee is $75: waived for Premier Gold and above.