Air France Frequence Plus - Why are AF interiors so basic?

Why are AF interiors so basic?

Their short haul a/c (A32S) doesn't even have drop down screens, and the new seats can't even recline. Their short haul C class is a joke.

Concerning their long haul a/c, their 777s have become terrible with 10-abreast in Y, and tiny PTVs (some airlines have 10-abreast in Y, but with at least huge PTVs). And of course, they don't have mood lights....

Concerning their A380s, they must be the most basic A380s in the world: nothing extraordinary, when we compare to other airlines, inluding LH (!). Their mood lights are not real mood lights since the only colours are white and purple...

The F and C class are also disappointing compared to other airlines (and not only Asian carriers)

What do you think? Why does AF make the miminum?
Don't they have to improve their cabin to remain competitive?

This is not an AF bashing thread, on the contrary, I love this airline, which represents my country around the world.

You have a good point. They are lagging behind compared to quite a few airlines out there, and it is not unthinkable that they loose passengers because of that...
Whilst the 10 abreast will never go (This was confirmed at the DO). New F and J seats are on their way starting next year, if I am not msitaking. But don't count on a fast rollout though. Concerning the looks of the cabins, I guess it's their style. And concerning moodlights. I think moodlights are overrated. But that's my opinion.

You have copied and pasted the same thread you started on Airliners.net two weeks ago. Do you expect different opinions and answers ? :rolleyes:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5514348

You have copied and pasted the same thread you started on Airliners.net two weeks ago. Do you expect different opinions and answers ? :rolleyes:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5514348

:D

longhaul aside, what is the difference between LH, AS, KL, BA, LX, AF, etc short-haul? The above comments sound more like a Europe-wide comment than just for AF.

Concerning their A380s, they must be the most basic A380s in the world: nothing extraordinary, when we compare to other airlines, inluding LH (!). Their mood lights are not real mood lights since the only colours are white and purple...


I think the little lounge area at the front of the Business Class section puts Air France in quite good shape. Doesnt compare with the Emirates bar area. Certianly better than Singapore which puts Business Class seats in the narrowest part of the plane at the front...

You have copied and pasted the same thread you started on Airliners.net two weeks ago. Do you expect different opinions and answers ? :rolleyes:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5514348

My question is somewhat unrelated to that specific post.
Is there an EF guideline to avoid double posting on other forums? Personally, this is the only forum that I have time to read and would not suggest a rule that prohibits posting information here because it is posted elsewhere. Of course, a simple link might serve that purpose in many cases. But I would rather have the info written here than have a link to a full page of posts on airliner.net.

That being said, I am in full agreement with the observations of LY777. My reply is cost-cutting. But I think that AF understood that the non-recling seat on shorthaul is a step too far; at least I hope so.

That being said, I am in full agreement with the observations of LY777. My reply is cost-cutting. But I think that AF understood that the non-recling seat on shorthaul is a step too far; at least I hope so.

I don't think they have I'm afraid. To me, they seem very happy with it :(

AF always have the same reaction when passengers tell them things. So for years we've told them J (and P) is sub-par and losing out to the competition of flat beds. They said no no no people don't want flat beds. We said but look, you have less J (and P) revenue than others and most of your income is from Y. They answered no no no it's a business model, high paying Y is the future, J is (all but) dead, we are aiming for the right segment.

So now, they have decided that they are tremendously behind in J, that they need to boost J income and that therefore all effort will be put into improving J and P. I think we can expect genuine improvement in C/J, probably both long haul and short haul, but I would also expect the non-reclining seats to stay on short-haul and shorter medium-haul at least.

(PS: I also still wonder if they will end up generalising them to the whole medium haul fleet ultimately. Bear in mind AF already flies some 4h-ish flights with the non-reclining new seats with the bases Province concept - NCE-TLV, MRS-BEY until discontinued, MRS-SVO, NCE-ATH, TLS-CMN, etc. If they don't have major complaints about it I wouldn't put it passed someone in the airline to suggest generalising those seats to the whole medium haul fleet to bring down costs.)

You have copied and pasted the same thread you started on Airliners.net two weeks ago. Do you expect different opinions and answers ? :rolleyes:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5514348

Great find ;)
Seriously, I wanted to get the point of view from AF FF exclusively. On the A.net forum, most people ((in particular American) found AF product great. As you can see, the answers on this forum are quite different...

AF always have the same reaction when passengers tell them things. So for years we've told them

You are not alone in having noticed that...

Back to the point of in-flight comfort... yes that's sub-par. There is no denying that flat beds are better, and AF don't have them in J. As to why... I'd say that, like any business, they expected to minimize cost without affecting revenue.

But:


This is not an AF bashing thread, on the contrary, I love this airline, which represents my country around the world.


I don't think AF can make this claim. It's private, you know, it just happen to be headquartered in France. But like the football team called "équipe de France", they can't claim to represent a country just by putting its name on it.

AF always have the same reaction when passengers tell them things. So for years we've told them

You are not alone in having noticed that...

Back to the point of in-flight comfort... yes that's sub-par. There is no denying that flat beds are better, and AF don't have them in J. As to why... I'd say that, like any business, they expected to minimize cost without affecting revenue.

But:


This is not an AF bashing thread, on the contrary, I love this airline, which represents my country around the world.


I don't think AF can make this claim. It's private, you know, it just happen to be headquartered in France. But like the football team called "équipe de France", they can't claim to represent a country just by putting its name on it.

I guess it depends on how you define "represent". Methinks your definition is too narrow and underestimates the role AF plays in promoting "Frenchness" and it underestimates the way in which people from other countries look at AF.

Air France cabins are not that bad, even if not the most modern ones.

Some reasons: one of world largest fleet, the average fleet age of Air France is 9.1 years, and the strategy - more driven by yield management rather than marketing - was optimization of occupancy rate rather than differenciation of the product.

Things are changing with the modernization of the J and P products.

Air France cabins are not that bad, even if not the most modern ones.

I agree. On the other side of the spectrum exists the "bling" cabin. That is not exactly my style. I prefer the calm and modest colours AF uses over shiny fake wood panels with gold-coloured shiny plastic thingies found elsewhere...

I agree. On the other side of the spectrum exists the "bling" cabin. That is not exactly my style. I prefer the calm and modest colours AF uses over shiny fake wood panels with gold-coloured shiny plastic thingies found elsewhere...

I am not fond of EK interiors, either, they are indeed "bling".
For example, SQ, TG (77Ws) Air India 777s(77L/77W) have a nice interior, with some warm colours, 3-3-3 config in Y, mood lights, nice IFE...
BA First Class look amazing, too, as well as LH new C and F

I guess it depends on how you define "represent". Methinks your definition is too narrow and underestimates the role AF plays in promoting "Frenchness" and it underestimates the way in which people from other countries look at AF.

One could also point to the people who will avoid AF at all cost, due to:

- the perception (right or wrong) that they will be affected by a strike
- if you do not speak French, you will get worse service
- the lack of flexibility in getting a miles upgrade (if no award fare class is available)

Yes, these are stereotypes, but they are also seen as part of the AF DNA, as the representation of France.

Cheers,

GenevaFlyer

"Flat beds" have another characteristic on most airlines: they are solo beds. On the other hand AF seats are conventional ones in pairs or trios. Those who have travelled on the middle seat of a 777 will understand the fun. For middle seats, the NEV4 is probably worse with its restricted space. And I find the NEV2, which is still prevalent on the premium routes with 77W, is the worse angled lie-flat seat of any airline (past or present), with silly cushion angles that torture the back.

I am glad to hear the enthusiasm of DO participants regarding the quick replacement of current J seats. It is reminiscent of the same enthusiasm three year ago when NEV4 was anticipated. According to public info, AF has drastically cut down on investments and will order seats only after Transform 2015 is in place. That means no order before 2013 and no new seats before 2014. If all goes well. And how long before the whole fleet gets a flat bed? IMO this is the most important question. If AF slowly retrofits the existing 77W with F and NEV2 and leaves the aircrafts with NEV4 intact, then it will become a subject of strong irritation.
And for F seats, we have seen the cosmetic improvement that is proposed. the current seat is not bad, but the lack of privacy and antiue avod system need to be adressed It will take years to restore AF reputation among foreign premium pax. And the number of F seats on offer is becoming so small that it is marginal except in terms of image.

I am glad to hear the enthusiasm of DO participants regarding the quick replacement of current J seats. It is reminiscent of the same enthusiasm three year ago when NEV4 was anticipated. According to public info, AF has drastically cut down on investments and will order seats only after Transform 2015 is in place. That means no order before 2013 and no new seats before 2014. If all goes well. And how long before the whole fleet gets a flat bed? IMO this is the most important question. If AF slowly retrofits the existing 77W with F and NEV2 and leaves the aircrafts with NEV4 intact, then it will become a subject of strong irritation.

That is also my concern. I have confidence that the new J seat will be good. But...if it goes just like now, where you can just as well get a NEV2, whilst they advertise the NEV4... :rolleyes:

I guess, that it should all be rolled out within 2 years max to avoid the :mad: smiley apearing too often here! ;)

One exception. If certain plane types get phased out in the coming years (747, 340?) I'd forgive them if they wouldn't install the future J seat on them. But...they should at least replace them with NEV4, possibly transferred from other aircraft.

One exception. If certain plane types get phased out in the coming years (747, 340?) I'd forgive them if they wouldn't install the future J seat on them. But...they should at least replace them with NEV4, possibly transferred from other aircraft.

All the 744s are getting the new NEV4 on a 2-2-2 config by the end of the year!

That is also my concern. I have confidence that the new J seat will be good. But...if it goes just like now, where you can just as well get a NEV2, whilst they advertise the NEV4... :rolleyes:

I guess, that it should all be rolled out within 2 years max to avoid the :mad: smiley apearing too often here! ;)

One exception. If certain plane types get phased out in the coming years (747, 340?) I'd forgive them if they wouldn't install the future J seat on them. But...they should at least replace them with NEV4, possibly transferred from other aircraft.

Indeed.

It would be surprising if they replaced the NEV4 that have just been installed. So in 3-year time we will probably end up with FLAT1 and NEV4. Not an optimal situation.

PS: While I do not find NEV4 an improvement over NEV3 (unless you get the new planes with larger video screens), they are certainly much better than NEV2. But a solo flat bed will be a quantum leap from NEV4.

FLAT1 and NEV4

FLAT1, looks like you invented a great handle here! This must be carried along here :D

I guess it depends on how you define "represent". Methinks your definition is too narrow and underestimates the role AF plays in promoting "Frenchness" and it underestimates the way in which people from other countries look at AF.

What you say is the reverse of representing, isn't it? AF benefits from the image of "Frenchness". Being a French airline, customers around the world expect it to follow certain standards, both in good...

One could also point to the people who will avoid AF at all cost, due to:

- the perception (right or wrong) that they will be affected by a strike
- if you do not speak French, you will get worse service
- the lack of flexibility in getting a miles upgrade (if no award fare class is available)

and bad.

But I don't think people ascribe strikes to France or the French people some characteristics because of their experience with the airline.

What you say is the reverse of representing, isn't it? AF benefits from the image of "Frenchness". Being a French airline, customers around the world expect it to follow certain standards, both in good...


I guess it doesn't represent in an active sense (as in Ambassador xxx represents France) but represents in a passive sense (as in Air France represents France in the eyes of many foreign passengers, to the extent that when AF behaves in a certain way, it will affect some people's perceptions of France). As often, in that latter meaning, the interaction between representation and representative is probably quite complex and largely relies on mutual reinforcement: many people expect AF to be on strike because it is French, but when AF is on strike it reinforces many people's perceptions of France as a striking nation, and if you ask some foreigners what makes them say that France is a striking nation, probably quite a few would mention AF strikes. Fortunately it probably works that way for good things too: people expect fine food on AF because it is a French airline, but when they get a good foie gras in AF J (which does happen relatively frequently), it probably reinforces their perception of France as a fine food nation.

" Why are AF interiors so basic? "

Corporate strategy and underlying that their perspective on how commercial air transportation "works".

They are/were convinced that airline travel has become a commodity product, where customers make their choice primarily based on price. This price sensitivity would reduce the demand for premium products (First and Business in the air, lounges on the ground, status benefits in its FFP). Thus, the objective of all efforts must be to offer the lowest possible fare and to attract passengers in the Economy cabin. This implies that profit is not generated by increasing revenues per seat, but by slashing costs per seat. The implications were threefold:


If you want to bring down the cost per seat but are faced with costs that are to some extent fixed, all you need to do is to increase the number of seats, so "per seats" your costs are lower -> enter 10 abreast in longhaul Y and narrow pitches in shorthaul C and Y
Because costs need to go down even further, the NEO shorthaul cabins were fitted with only the most rudimentary things, up to a point of absurdity (it would not cost much more to have a slightly bigger fold down table, but maybe to mark the point that this was now really cheap they made it particularly small)
For the shorthaul cabins, that were already installed, no money was spent on upgrading them or bringing them to the next generation of products. Hence either worn out longhaul cabins or a somewhat basic NEV4


What happened was that indeed by cheap-ing down their product they attracted less passengers in the premium cabins (where money is made), so to compensate they had to achieve very high load factors. And indeed AF has very high load factors (and some utterly moronic people believe that this shows that the company is successful with its strategy by seeing that "planes are full"). To fill the back cabins, cheapened down as well, they had to slash fares even further. So what happened that they indeed had a lower cost base but they had to erode their revenues even further, so they ended up with even bigger losses. Over the past couple of years AFKL has generated literally billions of Euros of losses.

Result, everybody lost out. First, passengers who ended up with a bad product. Then, shareholders because the company burned colossal amounts of money. Now, employees, because the company tries to turn around and has to make some brutal costs including reduction of the workforce.

But it seems things are changing, at least in the way that they think about their positioning and the way they want to earn money. We see hope-inspiring changes or at least announcements of changes, and I truly hope there will be a fundamental change towards more "love" for the frequent business traveler.

And by the way, I am afraid that indeed in many people's minds Air France is an "ambassador" of France. However, I take issue with an ambassador that gives an image of France of cheapness and bad hospitality. The country is certainly going through difficult times and many indicators are pointing downward rather than upward, and all of France isn't Hermès and gastronomic cuisine (the reality for most of the country is more Renault and steak frites). Still, AF should up its act if it wants to deserve the ambassador role.

The time when AF used "real" cutlery in Y seems so far away...

Result, everybody lost out. First, passengers who ended up with a bad product. Then, shareholders because the company burned colossal amounts of money. Now, employees, because the company tries to turn around and has to make some brutal costs including reduction of the workforce.

But it seems things are changing, at least in the way that they think about their positioning and the way they want to earn money. We see hope-inspiring changes or at least announcements of changes


On the other hand, high-yielding pax won't fly AF because they heard things will improve in the future, unless I am totally mistaken about purchasing habits... They'll be glad things will improve and consider flying AF again once the changes are implemented. The slow rate of change and the announcement make me think that changes will start in 2015, which means they may be reliably implementer in what, 2017-2018? I agree with you that I hope they'll have some love for frequent business customers, but I feel I'll be old before we get some actual results. It's a very long time until we see anything in my opinion. I'm glad they are determined to be on the right track, but we've a long time flying other companies in the meantime.


And by the way, I am afraid that indeed in many people's minds Air France is an "ambassador" of France.


I am afraid of that, too. That's why I said that they shouldn't seen as ambassadors, not that they do a bad job at it, but because it's simply not heir goal, nor it's LH or BA's goal to represent their country of origin, for what it's worth. And I certainly don't draw the conclusion that Englishmen are dirty based on the state of BA's plane.

" Why are AF interiors so basic? "

Corporate strategy and underlying that their perspective on how commercial air transportation "works".

They are/were convinced that airline travel has become a commodity product, where customers make their choice primarily based on price. This price sensitivity would reduce the demand for premium products (First and Business in the air, lounges on the ground, status benefits in its FFP). Thus, the objective of all efforts must be to offer the lowest possible fare and to attract passengers in the Economy cabin. This implies that profit is not generated by increasing revenues per seat, but by slashing costs per seat. The implications were threefold:


If you want to bring down the cost per seat but are faced with costs that are to some extent fixed, all you need to do is to increase the number of seats, so "per seats" your costs are lower -> enter 10 abreast in longhaul Y and narrow pitches in shorthaul C and Y
Because costs need to go down even further, the NEO shorthaul cabins were fitted with only the most rudimentary things, up to a point of absurdity (it would not cost much more to have a slightly bigger fold down table, but maybe to mark the point that this was now really cheap they made it particularly small)
For the shorthaul cabins, that were already installed, no money was spent on upgrading them or bringing them to the next generation of products. Hence either worn out longhaul cabins or a somewhat basic NEV4


What happened was that indeed by cheap-ing down their product they attracted less passengers in the premium cabins (where money is made), so to compensate they had to achieve very high load factors. And indeed AF has very high load factors (and some utterly moronic people believe that this shows that the company is successful with its strategy by seeing that "planes are full"). To fill the back cabins, cheapened down as well, they had to slash fares even further. So what happened that they indeed had a lower cost base but they had to erode their revenues even further, so they ended up with even bigger losses. Over the past couple of years AFKL has generated literally billions of Euros of losses.

Result, everybody lost out. First, passengers who ended up with a bad product. Then, shareholders because the company burned colossal amounts of money. Now, employees, because the company tries to turn around and has to make some brutal costs including reduction of the workforce.

But it seems things are changing, at least in the way that they think about their positioning and the way they want to earn money. We see hope-inspiring changes or at least announcements of changes, and I truly hope there will be a fundamental change towards more "love" for the frequent business traveler.

And by the way, I am afraid that indeed in many people's minds Air France is an "ambassador" of France. However, I take issue with an ambassador that gives an image of France of cheapness and bad hospitality. The country is certainly going through difficult times and many indicators are pointing downward rather than upward, and all of France isn't Hermès and gastronomic cuisine (the reality for most of the country is more Renault and steak frites). Still, AF should up its act if it wants to deserve the ambassador role.

Very inspiring analysis. Unfortunately it sounds right.

As Richelieu stated, it will take much more than announcements to attract back premium pax, especially foreign ones (and AF cannot rely only on its national base). Reputation can easily be destroyed, but it takes a lot of time and consistency to rebuild it. Seats on par with competition will not be enough. AF also needs reliable and CONSISTENT service from booking to luggage delivery. A long rocky road.

The interior design of AF cabins is made by Eric Gizard, in cooperation with Brandimage

http://www.ericgizard.com/clients/air-france/

http://www.brand-image.com/en/