India-based Airlines - Jet and the Star Alliance. Will they / Won't they?

http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/31230326/Jet-Airways-seeks-government-n.html

New Delhi: Naresh Goyal-controlled Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s biggest carrier, has sought government permission to join the world’s largest airline grouping, Star Alliance Services GmbH, putting the aviation ministry in a bit of a spot.

It looks as though 9W have finally declared their preference. I wonder what , if anything, will happen next.

Will the Government:

give its blessing

say "No"

or just ignore the request for a few years ?

Damn for a second I thought that Gol owns Jet Airways :)

oh no... another *A in India discussion... everyone get their soapboxes! :D

oh no... another *A in India discussion... everyone get their soapboxes! :D
Some never got off it in the first place! :D

This should be fun! Although I hope, from a personal perspective, not a baptism of fire. :eek: ;)

not in this lifetime

Here we go again; different mulberry bush, similar orbit.

For what (little) it's worth, I still think Skyteam will work best for Jet from several angles.

For what (little) it's worth, I still think Skyteam will work best for Jet from several angles.

i've said it before & i'll say it again, just join any alliance, doesn't matter which one....

give its blessing

yup, just as soon as hell freezes over....

say "No"

not right away....

or just ignore the request for a few years ?

my guess would be 3-4 years....

...and i hope the GoI have the balls to turn them down. However crap Air India may be, the way Star treated them when they were all ready to join was shocking and they deserve to be locked out of India for their arrogance.

Jet should have gone with Oneworld or Skyteam when they had the opportunity a few years ago.

Maybe I'm naive about this stuff, but why do they need government permission to join an alliance?

...and i hope the GoI have the balls to turn them down. However crap Air India may be, the way Star treated them when they were all ready to join was shocking and they deserve to be locked out of India for their arrogance.

Jet should have gone with Oneworld or Skyteam when they had the opportunity a few years ago.

Actually, the biggest slap in the face was not the way *A treated them. Hell, they are used to that. It's the fact that they let ET join and the timing.

9W makes sense for *A now for a bunch of reasons. Brussels Air & Jet both have hubs in BRU which don't compete at all. Would be a nice way for passengers from Europe to get to India/Asia not to mention a new transit spot between Africa/India.

For what it's worth, I've taken a number of 9W flights between LHR-BOM and EWR-BRU-BOM, all on the 77W in F and they are a fantastic airline, every bit as good as SQ IMHO

Maybe I'm naive about this stuff, but why do they need government permission to join an alliance?

I am guessing just because there is precedent. however, I am not privy to the terms of granting a Scheduled Carrier Licence in India and if it needs the permission of GoI

For what it's worth, I've taken a number of 9W flights between LHR-BOM and EWR-BRU-BOM, all on the 77W in F and they are a fantastic airline, every bit as good as SQ IMHO
Never flown 9W in F but their J product on the international wide bodies are also right up there with the competition.

With the new 330s on the way they must be looking to use the alliance to fill up all those extra J seats..

Never flown 9W in F but their J product on the international wide bodies are also right up there with the competition.

With the new 330s on the way they must be looking to use the alliance to fill up all those extra J seats..

They Unfortunatly cancelled the 77W's that used to fly BOM/DEL-BRU-EWR & BOM-PVG-SFO (only used on LHR routes now). I was told by a pilot the last time I flew them ( Ex CO Capt) that they just put so much money into those suites in F & the C configuration that these planes are very heavy. The cant make $$ with them in flights to the US since F & C fares are not so high

TG leases some of them now and people love them in F. I've heard of people going out of there way to fly TG from FRA or CDG just to fly on these Jet 77W's

Actually, the biggest slap in the face was not the way *A treated them. Hell, they are used to that. It's the fact that they let ET join and the timing.

9W makes sense for *A now for a bunch of reasons. Brussels Air & Jet both have hubs in BRU which don't compete at all. Would be a nice way for passengers from Europe to get to India/Asia not to mention a new transit spot between Africa/India.

For what it's worth, I've taken a number of 9W flights between LHR-BOM and EWR-BRU-BOM, all on the 77W in F and they are a fantastic airline, every bit as good as SQ IMHO

Hahahaha.... They are just as bad at award availability as SQ. Is this a joke?

They Unfortunatly cancelled the 77W's that used to fly BOM/DEL-BRU-EWR & BOM-PVG-SFO (only used on LHR routes now). I was told by a pilot the last time I flew them ( Ex CO Capt) that they just put so much money into those suites in F & the C configuration that these planes are very heavy. The cant make $$ with them in flights to the US since F & C fares are not so high

TG leases some of them now and people love them in F. I've heard of people going out of there way to fly TG from FRA or CDG just to fly on these Jet 77W's

I was going to say UA is the only airline offering PVG SFO nonstop.

Hahahaha.... They are just as bad at award availability as SQ. Is this a joke?

Who is TG? To be honest with you I have had more success with TG F then with SQ F and Jet F.



or just ignore the request for a few years ?

Yep. I can see this happening. Unless NG pays his way through which I think he might.


Never flown 9W in F but their J product on the international wide bodies are also right up there with the competition.

With the new 330s on the way they must be looking to use the alliance to fill up all those extra J seats..


I have been lucky enough to have flown most of the top First class products out there and I have to say that Jet First is my second favorite. This is after Etihad who offer the same cabin as Jet in F.

I wasn't aware of the 330's. When and how many?

Actually, the biggest slap in the face was not the way *A treated them. Hell, they are used to that. It's the fact that they let ET join and the timing.

9W makes sense for *A now for a bunch of reasons. Brussels Air & Jet both have hubs in BRU which don't compete at all. Would be a nice way for passengers from Europe to get to India/Asia not to mention a new transit spot between Africa/India.
There are already many ways to get to India/Asia from Europe. LH serves India from Europe better than 9W does already.
As far as connections to Africa are concerned, other than for Indians peddling Chinese junk in Africa, connections to Africa above the equator is hardly an important consideration for Indian flyers.
9W would eaten alive by LH. But they do want *A.

http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/31230326/Jet-Airways-seeks-government-n.html

New Delhi: Naresh Goyal-controlled Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s biggest carrier, has sought government permission to join the world’s largest airline grouping, Star Alliance Services GmbH, putting the aviation ministry in a bit of a spot.

It looks as though 9W have finally declared their preference. I wonder what , if anything, will happen next.

Will the Government:

give its blessing

say "No"

or just ignore the request for a few years ?

"We are pleased to inform you that we have made the decision to join Star Alliance,” Jet Airways senior vice-president, planning and alliance, Raj Sivakumar, said in a 16 July letter to aviation secretary Syed Nasim Zaidi.
Decided to join? Have they been invited yet?
There is a growing number of blogs that quote no sources. Once something appears on a blog, every other blogs uses the same bit of information without adding to the original blog in information or verity.

Actually, the biggest slap in the face was not the way *A treated them. Hell, they are used to that. It's the fact that they let ET join and the timing.

9W makes sense for *A now for a bunch of reasons. Brussels Air & Jet both have hubs in BRU which don't compete at all. Would be a nice way for passengers from Europe to get to India/Asia not to mention a new transit spot between Africa/India.

For what it's worth, I've taken a number of 9W flights between LHR-BOM and EWR-BRU-BOM, all on the 77W in F and they are a fantastic airline, every bit as good as SQ IMHO

Already flying Brussels Air and Jet on one ticketed itinerary is possible.

9W in economy class for long-haul international flights in coach is now worse than when 9W first started service beyond Asia.

I hope that 9W is able to get into Star Alliance but I am not counting on it happening anytime very soon.

I am guessing just because there is precedent. however, I am not privy to the terms of granting a Scheduled Carrier Licence in India and if it needs the permission of GoI

Anti-trust-/competition-undermining concerns. These kind of concerns (about consumer-unfriendly outcomes) and needs for government approval are not unique to India. Even US and European carriers have sought and attained such approval from their own governments so as to join up in an alliance.

It's clear that Jet prefers *A and *A prefers Jet.
Since *A, more specifically LH is not interested in having AI on board and most Indian *A members overwhelmingly prefer Jet, it's about time GoI realised that it's been had and let the industry decide for itself.
There is a reason why Jet was never formally invited or why Jet never made any formal declaration of its intent. Any declaration of intent from either side would have made the charade of AI being mentored by Lufthansa to join the alliance.

While it makes sense to punish LH, it's irresponsible to punish the industry by condemning to limbo .

Let Jet Go. But do punish LH and *A.
Alternatively, if IT dies, as it it increasingly looks like it will, SKyTeam and OneWorld can divvy up Jet and AI leaving *A high and dry.
LH has been pushing the line. GoI needs to draw a firm line and take the cue from Farragut.
In either case, there should be immediate repercussions for LH.

Let Jet Go. But do punish LH and *A.


So the GoI/DGCA should allow 9W to join *A if LH departs it first :) and hands over all Germany-India slots to AirBerlin ie OW :D

Who is TG? To be honest with you I have had more success with TG F then with SQ F and Jet F.




Yep. I can see this happening. Unless NG pays his way through which I think he might.





I have been lucky enough to have flown most of the top First class products out there and I have to say that Jet First is my second favorite. This is after Etihad who offer the same cabin as Jet in F.

I wasn't aware of the 330's. When and how many?

I was talking about 9w

So the GoI/DGCA should allow 9W to join *A if LH departs it first :) and hands over all Germany-India slots to AirBerlin ie OW :D

I don't care where they go. They can sit idle as B787s are. :D

So the GoI/DGCA should allow 9W to join *A if LH departs it first :) and hands over all Germany-India slots to AirBerlin ie OW :D

BA, EY already have good coverage of India.

I don't care where they go. They can sit idle as B787s are. :D

Maybe make LH take the 787 and 77L off AI's hands at list price before 9W is allowed to join *A? That should hurt...

Here we go again; different mulberry bush, similar orbit.
Are you sure it's a mulberry bush? ;)
For what (little) it's worth, I still think Skyteam will work best for Jet from several angles.

*A doesn't need any airline to either supplement or complement its network outside India. If Jet is content with a couple of flights to Brussels and flying to SE Asia, West Asia, it would fit well with *A. Jet will have its; wings clipped in *A.

With SkyTeam it can grow.

BA, EY already have good coverage of India.

EY and EK, jointly and severally, have far better coverage of India than any European carrier. Actually they have far better coverage of India than all the US and European airlines together. ;)

Decided to join? Have they been invited yet?
There is a growing number of blogs that quote no sources. Once something appears on a blog, every other blogs uses the same bit of information without adding to the original blog in information or verity.

They have received a letter from *A to confirm their interest after which *A will take it to their CEO board of member airlines, the same board that voted AI out last July.

As for the source, it is the Mint news paper which accessed the documents and confirmed sighting them. It is present at the beginning of this thread.

Talking about blogs, one for the road on this series of events...

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/livefromalounge/2012/08/01/star-alliance-and-jet-airways-3rd-time-lucky/

Maybe I'm naive about this stuff, but why do they need government permission to join an alliance?

Anti-trust-/competition-undermining concerns. These kind of concerns (about consumer-unfriendly outcomes) and needs for government approval are not unique to India. Even US and European carriers have sought and attained such approval from their own governments so as to join up in an alliance.

In addition to what GUWonder said, I think there's another reason. It's not so much that 9W is asking the govt for permission, but rather getting their blessing. The idea is that AI really wanted to join *A, but was not able to. So 9W wants to make sure that if they do join *A, the govt/AI will not get upset and retaliate against them.

In addition to what GUWonder said, I think there's another reason. It's not so much that 9W is asking the govt for permission, but rather getting their blessing. The idea is that AI really wanted to join *A, but was not able to. So 9W wants to make sure that if they do join *A, the govt/AI will not get upset and retaliate against them.
GoI said last year that *A cannot have another airline unless it accept AI, while *'s stand was both, 9W and AI or none.
Also, isn't foreign trade, along with defence, foreign affairs, is under reserved list? Or is it concurrent?

GoI has told *A that it must either accept or reject AI before it does anything with 9W.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/govt-to-takejets-request-for-star-membership-post-ai-decision/482113/

This is great news - it's hopefully the start of the alliance situation getting sorted out in India. No more of this "application suspended, now lets twiddle our thumbs" crap...

GoI has told *A that it must either accept or reject AI before it does anything with 9W.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/govt-to-takejets-request-for-star-membership-post-ai-decision/482113/

This is great news - it's hopefully the start of the alliance situation getting sorted out in India. No more of this "application suspended, now lets twiddle our thumbs" crap...

Accept or Reject? I hope they reject.

Accept or Reject? I hope they reject.

Well, I (unsurprisingly) hope they accept.

But regardless, I'd welcome a rejection too - then maybe AI will start seriously considering joining ST/OW instead of just waiting on *A. Any alliance is better than no alliance...

Here we go again; different mulberry bush, similar orbit.


Love the restraint. Down under, we'd call it same sh!t different bucket.

Well, I (unsurprisingly) hope they accept.

But regardless, I'd welcome a rejection too - then maybe AI will start seriously considering joining ST/OW instead of just waiting on *A.

Er, it works the other way round. What alliance AI wants to join is secondary to which member airline of a particular alliance will sponsor AIs entry. After this clusterflap that was AI's intended membership of *A, I don't see any OW or ST member stepping up to be the sponsor.

ST might be the best fit. All things considered.

Er, it works the other way round. What alliance AI wants to join is secondary to which member airline of a particular alliance will sponsor AIs entry. After this clusterflap that was AI's intended membership of *A, I don't see any OW or ST member stepping up to be the sponsor.

ST might be the best fit. All things considered.

AI is more or less compliant with alliance requirements. Financial issues aren't something an alliance is going to care about as long as the government is still there backing AI, and AI's IT, etc. has all been upgraded to be alliance-compliant. AI's suspension was mostly politics.

Mind you, that doesn't excuse the fact that AI took far longer than it should have to get itself ready, but if AI tried to join an alliance today, it would be a far easier (and quicker) process.

I'm sure both OW and ST would both be happy to have AI when the alternative is to be locked out of the Indian market.

I'm sure both OW and ST would both be happy to have AI when the alternative is to be locked out of the Indian market.

"Locked Out" ?

CX/KA and BA together fly to BOM, DEL, MAA, HYD, BLR.

If QF/EK alliance goes ahead, it'll be even more (atleast on the QF Code); arguably higher "one stop" reach into India than what AI could hope to provide.

Other airlines in OW have individual tie-ups with 9W and IT.

Not sure where you come up with "locked out of the Indian Market" from, or what exactly you mean by it. Nice rhetoric though. Indian aviation does seem to inflate its importance to the "alliances" than what the "alliances" think its worth.

"Locked Out" ?

CX/KA and BA together fly to BOM, DEL, MAA, HYD, BLR.

If QF/EK alliance goes ahead, it'll be even more (atleast on the QF Code); arguably higher "one stop" reach into India than what AI could hope to provide.

Other airlines in OW have individual tie-ups with 9W and IT.

Not sure where you come up with "locked out of the Indian Market" from, or what exactly you mean by it. Nice rhetoric though. Indian aviation does seem to inflate its importance to the "alliances" than what the "alliances" think its worth.
I don't really think the number of cities each alliance serves is particularly helpful at telling the importance of Indian carriers.

However, if you'd like to use number of destinations served as a metric, I submit this:
Star Alliance serves less than 10 destinations direct from DEL.
AI serves 60+.
9W serves 40+.

BOM is similar. HYD, BLR, MAA, ATQ, PNQ and CCU have limited alliance connectivity. Airports like AMD, NAG, and (my hometown) IXE have no alliance connectivity at all.

I don't really think the number of cities each alliance serves is particularly helpful at telling the importance of Indian carriers.

However, if you'd like to use number of destinations served as a metric, I submit this:
Star Alliance serves less than 10 destinations direct from DEL.
AI serves 60+.
9W serves 40+.

BOM is similar. HYD, BLR, MAA, ATQ, PNQ and CCU have limited alliance connectivity. Airports like AMD, NAG, and (my hometown) IXE have no alliance connectivity at all.

Despite that disparity in number of destinations, *A walked away from the mess that is AI. What does that tell you about the perceived importance of Indian carriers?

QED

Never mind the discussion about how any of those secondary and tertiary destinations like NAG and IXE have alliance loyal fliers as opposed to price sensitive ones. Further ignore the fact that people in PNQ would rather drive to BOM than hike out to Lohgad and run the gauntlet of delayed flights and transfer chaos.

Despite that disparity in number of destinations, *A walked away from the mess that is AI. What does that tell you about the perceived importance of Indian carriers?

QED *A walked away from AI because they wanted 9W. This is a commentary on the perceived importance of AI in relation to 9W, not of Indian carriers in general.

Never mind the discussion about how any of those secondary and tertiary destinations like NAG and IXE have alliance loyal fliers as opposed to price sensitive ones. IXE has a large 9W following. I know many 9W Plats who live near me. FFPs certainly to matter to some people (with money).


Further ignore the fact that people in PNQ would rather drive to BOM than hike out to Lohgad and run the gauntlet of delayed flights and transfer chaos.

I don't know if that generalization is fair. I know that I'd pick a connection over a 4+ hour drive any day.

*A walked away from AI because they wanted 9W. This is a commentary on the perceived importance of AI in relation to 9W, not of Indian carriers in general.
IXE has a large 9W following. I know many 9W Plats who live near me. FFPs certainly to matter to some people (with money).




While I would like to believe you that *A wanted 9w from the start, please explain how is it related to walking away from AI.

Also, howmany is 'large 9w following' according to you? Numbers, please?

While I would like to believe you that *A wanted 9w from the start, please explain how is it related to walking away from AI. Don't you remember how the fiasco unfolded?
http://www.livemint.com/2011/08/01223840/Star-Alliance-denies-berth-to.html?atype=tp

Two officials at the civil aviation ministry said the rejection came after the ministry didn’t agree to a demand from the alliance to give Jet Airways (India) Ltd the go-ahead to join the grouping.



“Star Alliance told us that they will draft a letter on behalf of Jet Airways which the ministry needs to sign as a no-objection certificate for Jet to also be a Star member before Star gives a green signal for Air India to join,” a top ministry official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “This was an atrocious demand and was completely rejected.”

A second ministry official, who also did not want to be named, confirmed the demand: “They said either we take Jet and Air India or none is welcome.” The row could escalate, with the Indian authorities planning to issue an official statement, he said. “We will reply appropriately to Star. As far as we are concerned, Star can forget India,” he added.



Gerhard Girkinger, chief project manager at Star Alliance, who has been supervising the integration process with Air India, wrote to the carrier on 30 July and said that much of the work was “done”.

“I can confirm the status of the integration based on the attached spreadsheets. From my perspective, this means we are basically done although I need formal sign-off. All the other components depend on a joining date,” Girkinger wrote.



Klick did not deny the communication. “Notwithstanding the fact that Air India must have breached our confidentiality agreement with such information, I can confirm the following: The decision to accept compliance to the full set of minimum joining conditions as contractually agreed to in 2007 is not taken/confirmed by a project manager in the Star Alliance Service GmbH responsible for the implementation of a certain set of so-called components,” he said.

Also, howmany is 'large 9w following' according to you? Numbers, please?

I know personally ~20 9W Plats in IXE, and probably ~50 9W Golds. I'm sure there are many more who I don't know.

20 may not seem like a big number, but at a small station like IXE, it's a big deal. In comparison, I only know 5 AI Golds and 0 AI Maharaja Club members in IXE... Although that may be because of the horrible treatment IC has given IXE over the years...

Never flown 9W in F but their J product on the international wide bodies are also right up there with the competition.
I agree that their F and J hard products rank up there amongst the best I have flown.

Everything else though is an increasingly sad letdown.

This is great news - it's hopefully the start of the alliance situation getting sorted out in India. No more of this "application suspended, now lets twiddle our thumbs" crap...
That's rich, coming from the Undisputed World Champion of Thumb Twiddling : Air India.

Love the restraint. Down under, we'd call it same sh!t different bucket.
Hahah! That's one of the few things I've never been accused of : restraint. That was posted in another context; I usually have other, rather choice words at the tip of my tongue.

ST might be the best fit. All things considered.
Honestly, if there must be alliance membership, then I still think Star will work better for AI and Skyteam better for Jet.

I'm sure both OW and ST would both be happy to have AI when the alternative is to be locked out of the Indian market.
Locked out? Who's locked out?

The only ones I see locked out of the Indian market are Air India and Jet Airways. And that's because they will have ended up locking themselves out - they're halfway down that path anyway.

In any event, the idea of the Indian market is very, very far removed from the reality of it.

Don't you remember how the fiasco unfolded?
Really? Now a mainstream article is perfectly trustworthy?

And in any event, no. Simply going by what AI said or, worse, what a bureaucrat said is being incredibly naïve.

Star Alliance gave Air India the finger because they were fed up of waiting.

And before anyone bursts into a combination of protests, conspiracy theories, finger-pointing and naively believing all that a government official spouts out, Star's decision was perfectly justified.

Star invited Air India to join, yes, but subject to certain criteria, certainly. Which, I presume, included Air India getting their act together by a certain date or within a "reasonable" time. Neither of which AI did. Four years is unacceptable from any angle, regardless of the reason or excuse.

We don't know for sure what exactly each of those reasons these airlines had for not wanting AI anymore. I doubt it's because Air India were crap (or Jet were less crap), because that's not a new finding, and Star have their fair share of crap airlines. I suspect it's because they concluded that enough is enough.

When AI moved at such a glacial pace for alliance entry - and everything else, really - one can't blame Star members if they're worried about a future with AI. Air India's hopelessness has a rather minimal impact on the alliance now; if they were to become a member, and continued behaving the same way (a perfectly fair expectation), the impact could be significant.

Shut the damn thing down immediately and put the exchequer out of its misery.

Still waiting to hear your explanation on OW/ST/*A being "locked out" of the Indian Market btw...

Really? Now a mainstream article is perfectly trustworthy?

And in any event, no. Simply going by what AI said or, worse, what a bureaucrat said is being incredibly naïve.

Star Alliance gave Air India the finger because they were fed up of waiting.

And before anyone bursts into a combination of protests, conspiracy theories, finger-pointing and naively believing all that a government official spouts out, Star's decision was perfectly justified.

Star invited Air India to join, yes, but subject to certain criteria, certainly. Which, I presume, included Air India getting their act together by a certain date or within a "reasonable" time. Neither of which AI did. Four years is unacceptable from any angle, regardless of the reason or excuse.

We don't know for sure what exactly each of those reasons these airlines had for not wanting AI anymore. I doubt it's because Air India were crap (or Jet were less crap), because that's not a new finding, and Star have their fair share of crap airlines. I suspect it's because they concluded that enough is enough.

When AI moved at such a glacial pace for alliance entry - and everything else, really - one can't blame Star members if they're worried about a future with AI. Air India's hopelessness has a rather minimal impact on the alliance now; if they were to become a member, and continued behaving the same way (a perfectly fair expectation), the impact could be significant.

Shut the damn thing down immediately and put the exchequer out of its misery.

My views exactly except you got them here before me. I hope PVDtoDEL has his answers. To add, *A did not throw AI out, the CEO board of the member airlines of *A voted against AI being in *A, that means about 2 dozen seasoned aviation professionals were on the table who run airlines bigger or smaller than AI.

http://www.staralliance.com/en/press/starairindia-prp/

as for shutting down the damn thing, yes, shut it down or send me revenue tickets in line with the amount of taxes I pay which gets sent to the airline as dole.

Still waiting to hear your explanation on OW/ST/*A being "locked out" of the Indian Market btw...
It's not that they are prevented from flying to India but the don't have benefits of having an Indian carrier in the alliance if they c=don't have an Indian member.

AI is more or less compliant with alliance requirements.
Clearly, AI is not compliant or they would have joined *A last year.

*A walked away from AI because they wanted 9W. This is a commentary on the perceived importance of AI in relation to 9W, not of Indian carriers in general.
I'm not buying this. *A doesn't seem that dumb to me. I think the reason you provided was the official reason given just so AI could save face and not admit that it did not meet alliance requirements.

Star Alliance gave Air India the finger because they were fed up of waiting.

And before anyone bursts into a combination of protests, conspiracy theories, finger-pointing and naively believing all that a government official spouts out, Star's decision was perfectly justified.

Star invited Air India to join, yes, but subject to certain criteria, certainly. Which, I presume, included Air India getting their act together by a certain date or within a "reasonable" time. Neither of which AI did. Four years is unacceptable from any angle, regardless of the reason or excuse.

We don't know for sure what exactly each of those reasons these airlines had for not wanting AI anymore. I doubt it's because Air India were crap (or Jet were less crap), because that's not a new finding, and Star have their fair share of crap airlines. I suspect it's because they concluded that enough is enough.

When AI moved at such a glacial pace for alliance entry - and everything else, really - one can't blame Star members if they're worried about a future with AI. Air India's hopelessness has a rather minimal impact on the alliance now; if they were to become a member, and continued behaving the same way (a perfectly fair expectation), the impact could be significant.

Shut the damn thing down immediately and put the exchequer out of its misery.

Agreed.

I know personally ~20 9W Plats in IXE, and probably ~50 9W Golds. I'm sure there are many more who I don't know.

20 may not seem like a big number, but at a small station like IXE, it's a big deal. In comparison, I only know 5 AI Golds and 0 AI Maharaja Club members in IXE... Although that may be because of the horrible treatment IC has given IXE over the years...

You sure are well connected. But 20 plats and 50 golds in a scheme of about 2 million members (17 lakh members in 2010, can't locate latest nos. so extrapolating a bit) is a small decimal rounding off.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/5.0.0.822 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)


I know personally ~20 9W Plats in IXE, and probably ~50 9W Golds. I'm sure there are many more who I don't know.

20 may not seem like a big number, but at a small station like IXE, it's a big deal. In comparison, I only know 5 AI Golds and 0 AI Maharaja Club members in IXE... Although that may be because of the horrible treatment IC has given IXE over the years...

You sure are well connected. But 20 plats and 50 golds in a scheme of about 2 million members (17 lakh members in 2010, can't locate latest nos. so extrapolating a bit) is a small decimal rounding off.

Indeed.

I live in South Bombay, which possibly has the highest concentration of airline elites in the country, and I can't say I personally know half that number.

But here we have not just knowing so many elites, but also intimate knowledge of working practices, being the confidant of choice for pilots unions, media managers' preferred point of leakage, a global bellwether for what's fantastic... And so much more.

And before anyone bursts into a combination of protests, conspiracy theories, finger-pointing and naively believing all that a government official spouts out, Star's decision was perfectly justified.

Star invited Air India to join, yes, but subject to certain criteria, certainly. Which, I presume, included Air India getting their act together by a certain date or within a "reasonable" time. Neither of which AI did. Four years is unacceptable from any angle, regardless of the reason or excuse.

We don't know for sure what exactly each of those reasons these airlines had for not wanting AI anymore. I doubt it's because Air India were crap (or Jet were less crap), because that's not a new finding, and Star have their fair share of crap airlines. I suspect it's because they concluded that enough is enough.

When AI moved at such a glacial pace for alliance entry - and everything else, really - one can't blame Star members if they're worried about a future with AI. Air India's hopelessness has a rather minimal impact on the alliance now; if they were to become a member, and continued behaving the same way (a perfectly fair expectation), the impact could be significant.

Shut the damn thing down immediately and put the exchequer out of its misery.


While *A may have played hardball, the fact that it took AI 4 years to try to join and the fact that the alliance was forced to set a deadline for joining threw up all kinds of red flags about AI. AI and the GoI dug their own grave as far as this goes. They just got mad when someone threw dirt on top of them.

No more of this "application suspended, now lets twiddle our thumbs" crap...
That's rich, coming from the Undisputed World Champion of Thumb Twiddling : Air India.
Well, yeah... AI has been twiddling its thumbs and maintaining "we'll get to Star one day" instead of actively pursuing opportunities with other alliances or trying to reconcile differences with Star... That's thumb twiddling, and not particularly rich.

Really? Now a mainstream article is perfectly trustworthy? You guys want mainstream articles, so I provided one...

Clearly, AI is not compliant or they would have joined *A last year. Did you read the article I linked to? Mainstream, just as you like :):
http://www.livemint.com/2011/08/01223840/Star-Alliance-denies-berth-to.html?atype=tp
Gerhard Girkinger, chief project manager at Star Alliance, who has been supervising the integration process with Air India, wrote to the carrier on 30 July and said that much of the work was “done”.

“I can confirm the status of the integration based on the attached spreadsheets. From my perspective, this means we are basically done although I need formal sign-off. All the other components depend on a joining date,” Girkinger wrote.
You sure are well connected. But 20 plats and 50 golds in a scheme of about 2 million members (17 lakh members in 2010, can't locate latest nos. so extrapolating a bit) is a small decimal rounding off.

As I said, this is IXE. We are a 5-flight per day station. The absolute number of 9W followers may be low, but in comparison to the following other airlines have here, it's huge.

Clearly, AI is not compliant or they would have joined *A last year.
I'm not buying this. *A doesn't seem that dumb to me. I think the reason you provided was the official reason given just so AI could save face and not admit that it did not meet alliance requirements.
Agreed.

Let's not argue about why AI was rejected. That was discussed in detail last year. NO one said *A is dumb. There has to be explanation other than meeting requirements when it found ET suitable.

AI's rejection is fact. AI was not going to be admitted without 9W. Now 9W has requested for permission to join *A. Let's stick to the issue and facts.
What should/would happen to 9W's application is what we should be discussing.

Did you read the article I linked to? Mainstream, just as you like :):
http://www.livemint.com/2011/08/01223840/Star-Alliance-denies-berth-to.html?atype=tp
You're right, I do generally prefer mainstream articles. And yes, I read it. I agree that the article probably quoted the *A person accurately. But my point is that the *A and AI officials may not have been telling us the real reason because of some political game they are playing.

This is not something crazy that I am suggesting. We know that politicians and businesspeople often say stuff in press conferences in order to hide something else.

Let's not argue about why AI was rejected. That was discussed in detail last year. NO one said *A is dumb. There has to be explanation other than meeting requirements when it found ET suitable.

AI's rejection is fact. AI was not going to be admitted without 9W. Now 9W has requested for permission to join *A. Let's stick to the issue and facts.
What should/would happen to 9W's application is what we should be discussing.
Well, the thread is about Jet asking GoI for permission to join *A. A few natural discussion points are (1) why Jet would need such permission in the first place and (2) the likelihood of them being granted such permission.

In my opinion, the answers to these questions are at least somewhat related to why AI (i.e. GoI) was denied entry into *A last year. For instance, if AI was denied entry because their systems were not ready, it's one thing. In such a case, 9W's application might have a relatively higher chance of being approved. But if AI was denied entry because *A also wanted 9W, then I just don't see why GoI would allow 9W to join *A this year.

So I think it is fair to discuss why AI was denied entry into *A last year in the context of understanding Jet's request for permission to join *A this year.

Regardless of why AI was rejected by *A, *A was well within its power to do so. Whether its exercised its power judiciously or with ulterior motives is not the issue.
It's well within GoI's power to reject 9W's application outright, or take its own sweet time, as is the norm, to act on it.
But should it? This soap opera needs to end. The Govt should act in the interest of the industry, not just AI. Jet Airways might take it (*A's preference for 9W) a victory, but in all likelihood, it's the kiss of death. Jet has a better chance of survival in another alliance. But it's Jet Airways' prerogative to make that choice, GoI cannot decide for 9W.
GoI does get to decide lots of other things vis-a-vis LH. That's where the action should be.

If 9W's application to join *A is rejected, it will disappoint my fellow enthusiasts on this board, but will not hurt 9W in the long run. It would serve *A right if it were.

This soap opera needs to end. The Govt should act in the interest of the industry, not just AI.

I certainly agree with this. This can't drag on forever just because the GoI refuses to let AI be anything more then its own private fleet.

Well, the thread is about Jet asking GoI for permission to join *A. A few natural discussion points are (1) why Jet would need such permission in the first place and (2) the likelihood of them being granted such permission.
That's a valid question. Other than anti-trus, or MRTPA, there should not be any other consideration. But GoI does own AI and has a duty to act in the interest of AI, as well as Indian aviation industry (there isa conflict of interest here). Additionally, it is foreign trade which is regulated by GoI.
Also the intrigue generated by AI's attempts to join *A last year should not be ignored.
In my opinion, the answers to these questions are at least somewhat related to why AI (i.e. GoI) was denied entry into *A last year. For instance, if AI was denied entry because their systems were not ready, it's one thing. In such a case, 9W's application might have a relatively higher chance of being approved. But if AI was denied entry because *A also wanted 9W, then I just don't see why GoI would allow 9W to join *A this year.
It does not matter why AI was denied entry. That it was is fait accompli. Its application was not denied, but suspended. It's curious, to say the least.
So I think it is fair to discuss why AI was denied entry into *A last year in the context of understanding Jet's request for permission to join *A this year.
Whether it's fair or not, is not the issue. The issue is how GoI should act on the request made by GoI. We can discuss why AI was rejected, rather, why AI's application was suspended until the cows come home, we will not be able to resolve it. Too many people here want to discus this issue emotionally. That you or someone else wants 9W's application to be accepted is not relevant here. This is what I said when AI was under consideration by *A.

What GoI's objectives should be, and how it can best achieve them is the issue. Clearly *A or those who wield power in *A are going to act in its interest, possibly in the interest of a powerful member, not in Jet's interest. WE expect 9W to act in its own interest. Even if it's too dumb to know what's best for it, that decision is to be made by Jet and it has made that decision. Now it's GoI's turn.

If you do want to discuss AI's application for membership to *A, think about why it was NOT rejected. It was suspended. But nothing new will come out of that discussion either, as these points were raised before too. People have their minds made up and see only what they want to see.

I certainly agree with this. This can't drag on forever just because the GoI refuses to let AI be anything more then its own private fleet.

Some FF's think the same about Jet. They expect Jet to give away business class seats for economy class fare. There will always be interest groups who want to maximise their advantage whether it's AI, or Jet.

While *A may have played hardball, the fact that it took AI 4 years to try to join and the fact that the alliance was forced to set a deadline for joining threw up all kinds of red flags about AI. AI and the GoI dug their own grave as far as this goes. They just got mad when someone threw dirt on top of them.

Why doesn't *A rject AI's application outright? To continue the intrigue?

Some FF's think the same about Jet. They expect Jet to give away business class seats for economy class fare. There will always be interest groups who want to maximise their advantage whether it's AI, or Jet.

At least these FF's don't have a conflict of interest when deciding something related to India's aviation.

Why doesn't *A rject AI's application outright? To continue the intrigue?

More politics at play, outright rejection would guarantee retaliation. Obviously whether or not such a move is justified has/is/forever will be discussed.

At least these FF's don't have a conflict of interest when deciding something related to India's aviation.
Conflict of interest. Now that's a novel concept, For India that is. Has conflict of interest ever detracted anyone in India? . The problem is entitlement. You are no more entitled to a business class seat if you bough an economy class ticket than any one else who did not pay.
This hype about GoI officials treating AI is their personal fleet is given more importance than it deserves. All airlines give special deals to Govt employees in the U.S. There is not change penalty on tickets issued to Federal Govt employees. People like to blame the Govt for everything. People make the Govt. It doesn't come from Mars. ;)

More politics at play, outright rejection would guarantee retaliation. Obviously whether or not such a move is justified has/is/forever will be discussed.
Oh what a shock it is! So politics did play a part in it.
That blows the theory that politics played no part in the process.
QED

Conflict of interest. Now that's a novel concept, For India that is. Has conflict of interest ever detracted anyone in India? . The problem is entitlement. You are no more entitled to a business class seat if you bough an economy class ticket than any one else who did not pay.
This hype about GoI officials treating AI is their personal fleet is given more importance than it deserves. All airlines give special deals to Govt employees in the U.S. There is not change penalty on tickets issued to Federal Govt employees. People like to blame the Govt for everything. People make the Govt. It doesn't come from Mars. ;)

I wouldn't be to sure about India's government. That aside, the point is is that while some FF may feel entitled, what they receive is business between the individual and the airline. The government portion must be responsible about what they control in the aviation sector. As you've pointed out, they can't continue being AI-centric forever, especially given AI's status.

Oh what a shock it is! So politics did play a part in it.
That blows the theory that politics played no part in the process.
QED

Never said politics didn't play a part in all of this.

EDIT: Going back to the topic of the thread. I think that the GoI should let 9W into *A and demand payment from the alliance for AI membership fees and perhaps interest. What I think will actually happen is the GoI will hold a grudge. Just wondering what form it's going to come in.

Never said politics didn't play a part in all of this.
You did not. Many others acted as if politics played no part.

EDIT: Going back to the topic of the thread. I think that the GoI should let 9W into *A and demand payment from the alliance for AI membership fees and perhaps interest. What I think will actually happen is the GoI will hold a grudge. Just wondering what form it's going to come in.

That's certainly an option. I also think that LH has gotten too much. far more than anyone airline should be granted. That has to be set right.

You did not. Many others acted as if politics played no part.



That's certainly an option. I also think that LH has gotten too much. far more than anyone airline should be granted. That has to be set right.

The only way I see LH keeping much of what it has is if AI gets into *A. Given the chances of that, they should probably start hammering out new schedules to India.

I wouldn't be to sure about India's government. That aside, the point is is that while some FF may feel entitled, what they receive is business between the individual and the airline. The government portion must be responsible about what they control in the aviation sector. As you've pointed out, they can't continue being AI-centric forever, especially given AI's status.

Right. On the one hand, GoI should think on wider scale--industry, as opposed to an airline, but on the other, as the owner of AI, the Govt must act in the best interest of AI. Since both can;t be done at the same time, the Govt should divest itself of AI ownership.

According extra privileges to by an airline, even on that's not owned by the Govt, is normal even in the largest capitalist economy. So let's not make that a big issue. Govt employees act as most Indians do, take advantage of their position or personal connection, whether kosher or not. Govt employees are but a microcosm of Indian society.

The only way I see LH keeping much of what it has is if AI gets into *A. Given the chances of that, they should probably start hammering out new schedules to India.

If GoI has given up on AI's entry into *A there is really no reason for the Govt to delay acting on 9W's request. But I am afraid, there will be quite a bit of horse trading behind the scenes involving issues that have nothing to do with civil aviation.
If LH is made to give up the privileges it secured under the pretense of mentoring and guiding AI into the alliance, *A loyalists will get all bent out of shape. Ability to do one stops to NA out of airports served by LH is not something they would like to give up.

If the German Govt comes to bat for LH, stripping LH of those extra slots will not be easy.

It would be impossible for LH to give any assurances to the GoI regarding AI's membership to *A. The Govt might take the stand that until *A takes a final action, not a mere suspension, on AI's application, and dispense it in accordance with any contractual (rather financial) obligations, the Govt cannot act on the 9W request as it would/could potentially mean two Indian carriers in one alliance.

Why doesn't *A rject AI's application outright? To continue the intrigue?

Because then *A would presumably have to repay the 60+ crores AI spent in joining fees (with possibly interest), along with the compensation agreement they and AI agree to (and we've all seen how AI is with compensation agreements during this 787 debacle :rolleyes:)

It would also probably not be politically prudent.

However, *A will now have to make an important decision: 1)take AI, the less appealing option, or 2) reject AI and take 9W, and face the consequences.

The Govt might take the stand that until *A takes a final action, not a mere suspension, on AI's application, and dispense it in accordance with any contractual (rather financial) obligations, the Govt cannot act on the 9W request as it would/could potentially mean two Indian carriers in one alliance.

This is precisely the stand that GoI has taken.

Because then *A would presumably have to repay the 60+ crores AI spent in joining fees (with possibly interest), along with the compensation agreement they and AI agree to (and we've all seen how AI is with compensation agreements during this 787 debacle :rolleyes:)It would also probably not be politically prudent.
The question was rhetorical. The claim that, *A acted fairly and honestly is belied by the fact that *A did not reject AI's application. It's naive for people to think that there is no intrigue. Rs 60 crores plus is not a large amount.

This is precisely the stand that GoI has taken.

No. GoI has had a "dog in the manger" stand towards airlines and alliances all along.

I've deleted some petty comments, personal attacks and borderline personal attacks.

Please stop.

Babu
Moderator, IBA

No. GoI has had a "dog in the manger" stand towards airlines and alliances all along.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Can you please elaborate as to what yo do not agree with?
AS I have said many times before, it's incumbent upon the GoI,a s the owner of AI, to do everything possible to promote it. It's also incumbent upon it to do everything possible to promote airlines of India, including IT, 9W, or any other airline.
Has the GoI done it (especially the latter) well? No. It lavished privileges on LH.
If AI does not get what GoI hope to get the favours granted to LH are not helpful to airlines of India.
Regardless of which airlines or alliance you prefer, the basis of discussion on evaluating GoI's behaviour has to be merits of the situation.
We all know who prefers what.
Comparing GoI's stand to "dog in the manger" makes little sense.

You want GoI to do right. But only that right that benefits you or your preferred airline. That's hardly a basis of conducting a sincere discussion.

Should GoI not try to make playing field, which tilts heavily in the favour of LH, level for Indian carriers. Should GoI not seek compensation from *A. To complain about AI delaying the decision to level the playing field or retrieve taxpayer money being, is not consistent with shouting from the top of roof about GoI wasting taxpayers' money. @:-)

Consistency and honesty gentlemen!

It lavished privileges on LH.

what favours?

Should GoI not seek compensation from *A.

by the same logic should members of the *A not seek compensation from AI for their wasted time and resources and the delays that were caused because AI took its own sweet time?

...and i hope the GoI have the balls to turn them down. However crap Air India may be, the way Star treated them when they were all ready to join was shocking and they deserve to be locked out of India for their arrogance.

Jet should have gone with Oneworld or Skyteam when they had the opportunity a few years ago.

completely agree with you !!

I also think that LH has gotten too much. far more than anyone airline should be granted. That has to be set right.

Care to share details?

There is another angle to this whole *A saga. Admittedly a conspiracy theory but with so many of those floating around, whats one more? :)

remember Air India is composed of 2 separate airlines, that have merged only in name. They remain for all practical purposes, 2 separate airlines to date with separate processes and service standards etc etc. While one is unabashedly pro-Boeing, the other has a marked preference for airbus. And so on. While one has been looking to get in bed with LH for decades, the other has shown a preference for Air France: whatever the reason. Years back, when the airlines were still separate, directors of both companies have had a public pow-wow in Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan on this topic. I say public, because sections of the media had a ringside view of this tamasha.

Remember just before the merger, IC was making its own plans to go international, acquiring upto 10 A330-200's for international operations. Their international plan centred around creating 2 hubs: SIN and CDG with a smaller one at SHJ. Coincidence? This plan was scuttled under pressure after 4 A330's joined the fleet.

While the IC guys felt the 2 state owned carriers could be members of separate alliances, the ministry in its wisdom insisted that BOTH should join the same alliance. IC guys were unhappy that the minister insisted on *A as the choice for both the carriers. There has been a fair amount of resentment over this and allegations of LH having paid the minister in question.

While the AI group sat smug, the IC group worked to acquire dominance in the management of the merged carrier: especially after the former minister was shown the door. Note at this point that the former CMD of IC is quite a politician himself! The ministers exit from the MoCA enabled the IC group to acquire dominance.

It is now clear, that in the fight for dominance between the 2 formerly separate entities, the IC group has won out and the former AI group has been caught with its pants down. Incidents like the recent strike are attempts by the former AI group to reassert their dominance, and the now dominant IC-group putting them down ruthlessly. It is no coincidence that the AI pilots strike was being co-ordinated by a politician(Jitendra Awhad) of the same party that the former Aviation minister came from, or that the former minister offered his "services" to resolve the issue: an offer that was not so subtly put down.

There has been an attempt by this dominant IC section to scuttle LH's chances, since they see LH as an airline equivalent of the East India company. They see better synergies and opportunities to work with the Skyteam. LH at some level understands this and is seeking to make amends by making a desperate bid for 9W to get onboard. 9W itself, as i understand it, is reluctant to commit at this point and there is political pressure on them( yes pressure on a private carrier) to sign up with LH. If 9W refuses, and AI gets onto Skyteam, LH will be in some trouble as far as India market is concerned. If you have listened to some of Nira Radia's tapes, on how LH and EK bought bilaterals and access into the Indian market, you will get some idea on the dynamics at play here.

Conspiracy theory maybe. But this theory is based on my limited understanding of the Ministry and Airlines dynamics. I personally think the AI mgmt (now run by ex-IC managers) deliberately adopted a go-slow to scuttle a decision that had been forced on them.

I've deleted some petty comments, personal attacks and borderline personal attacks.

Please stop.

Babu
Moderator, IBA

Despite Babu's above warning, some further posts still did not adhere to the request and needed to be deleted.

Again, please follow Babu's advice and focus solely on the topic at hand, without making it personal.

Thanks,
AJLondon,
Moderator, IbA

http://murderingthemaharaja.blogspot.kr/2011/09/what-really-happened.html

Good article...not sure how authentic it is

what favours?

Care to share details?

This has been discussed at length in other threads. Please use the search function on FT or search on google.

by the same logic should members of the *A not seek compensation from AI for their wasted time and resources and the delays that were caused because AI took its own sweet time?
What? *A deserves compensation from AI? :confused:
Certainly not. The example you cited is blatantly flawed.
If you apply for admission and for whatever reason, you are turned down, you may sue or ask for compensation from the institution if refusal was not based on qualifications. Institution cannot go after the applicant.

I find it hard to believe that it was a serious question. But one never knows how others process and evaluate information. :p

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ais-star-dream-ends/482772/

As per this article (basis an interview with the MoCA) the government of india has made its peace with AI not joining star (& asked it to explore Skyteam and Oneworld). It (or more specifically the minister) doesn't seem to have a problem with 9w joining Star

The interview is here
http://business-standard.com/india/news/of300-air-india-routes-only-three-make-money-ajit-singh/482794/

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ais-star-dream-ends/482772/

As per this article (basis an interview with the MoCA) the government of india has made its peace with AI not joining star (& asked it to explore Skyteam and Oneworld). It (or more specifically the minister) doesn't seem to have a problem with 9w joining Star

The interview is here
http://business-standard.com/india/news/of300-air-india-routes-only-three-make-money-ajit-singh/482794/

I don't quite get what this article means...:
Member-airlines of the world’s largest airline alliance were not able to come to a unanimous decision to allow Air India, whose application had been put on hold earlier.

Does this mean that AI's application has been formally rejected by *A? :confused:

If so, then the road has indeed cleared to 9W joining *A.

I'm not sure whether it's just an attempt to sensationalize an interview with Ajit Singh, or actual news coverage of *A's rejection.

I don't quite get what this article means...:


Does this mean that AI's application has been formally rejected by *A? :confused:

If so, then the road has indeed cleared to 9W joining *A.

I'm not sure whether it's just an attempt to sensationalize an interview with Ajit Singh, or actual news coverage of *A's rejection.

I thought you would hv already known this, but will explain. Star alliance's highest decision making body is the CEO board where each member airline CEO gets a vote. It was not the star alliance CEO but this board that booted out air India a year back.

Like the article says, There is a letter that air India/Ajit Singh got from *A last week where they(the CEO board) could not decide still on air India membership. So "they practically said no". Maybe they expect AI to withdraw their application rather than rejecting them.

I thought you would hv already known this, but will explain. Star alliance's highest decision making body is the CEO board where each member airline CEO gets a vote. It was not the star alliance CEO but this board that booted out air India a year back. Yes, I know this.

Like the article says, There is a letter that air India/Ajit Singh got from *A last week where they(the CEO board) could not decide still on air India membership. So "they practically said no". Maybe they expect AI to withdraw their application rather than rejecting them.

I understand that they have "practically said no" - but is that a formal rejection? I understand that if AI is formally rejected, then they might be entitled to getting their joining fees (60+ crores) back, etc. etc. In contrast, if they withdraw, they are forfeiting all of that. And, as long as they don't withdraw, their application is still "pending," so 9W cannot join.

*A may want AI to withdraw, but why would AI want to play along?

I understand that they have "practically said no" - but is that a formal rejection? I understand that if AI is formally rejected, then they might be entitled to getting their joining fees (60+ crores) back, etc. etc. In contrast, if they withdraw, they are forfeiting all of that. And, as long as they don't withdraw, their application is still "pending," so 9W cannot join.

*A may want AI to withdraw, but why would AI want to play along?

in the business world it is not always about the money, but pride as well. I hope that gives you a cue on the lines of what I am thinking..


and 9w cannot join is not a *A thing, its a MoCA thing

AI does not have any reason to stay hanging if they know the mood of the alliance, rather than just as a spoilsport, which basically sullies its own image and kind of will want everyone to distance themselves from AI. If you read the article under discussion carefully, it also says somewhere that AI's strike did more harm than good to them in the image department.

You're surely joking if you think that AI cares about its reputation. The reputation is already in tatters - it can't really get much worse.

You're surely joking if you think that AI cares about its reputation. The reputation is already in tatters - it can't really get much worse.

then they can stick it out and be actually 'thrown out' rather than have a facesaving exit. i think if they get thrown out, then no alliance will touch them. if they withdraw and talk to skyteam or oneworld, maybe.

If true, this will make it easier for Jet to get their wish and join Star. And that will be unfortunate for Jet, in my opinion.

As for Air India, I don't care what happens to them in terms of alliance membership, so long as the wretched beast dies a quick death.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ais-star-dream-ends/482772/

AI's move to Star Alliance is definitely off with the *A members not approving their membership unanimously. The latest pilot strike has been painted as the final straw by Ajit Singh. The government also seem to want to let Jet's membership go ahead as per this article and let Air India talk to OneWorld and SkyTeam so that is good news.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ais-star-dream-ends/482772/

AI's move to Star Alliance is definitely off with the *A members not approving their membership unanimously. The latest pilot strike has been painted as the final straw by Ajit Singh. The government also seem to want to let Jet's membership go ahead as per this article and let Air India talk to OneWorld and SkyTeam so that is good news.

this was put up in this thread this morning

Yes, I know this.

I understand that they have "practically said no" - but is that a formal rejection?
The article kicks a lot of dust with little information, which seems to be typical of Indian journalists today. "Exclusive club" ;) The only news in the article is
“To be part of the alliance, every member has to agree and that has not happened, especially after the pilots’ strike, when we lost a lot of credibility. They have practically said no and have sent us a letter last week. We have asked Air India to look for other options and alliances.”
I would like to know what the letter says.

I understand that if AI is formally rejected, then they might be entitled to getting their joining fees (60+ crores) back, etc. etc. In contrast, if they withdraw, they are forfeiting all of that. And, as long as they don't withdraw, their application is still "pending," so 9W cannot join.
The amount is not something that wll make or break AI. it's already broken and money is the only thing that's needed to make it better.
The only barrier to 9W joining the alliance is GoA's stance, which they can change. But why?
*A may want AI to withdraw, but why would AI want to play along?
That, I agree with.
For some reason, Indian flyers, airlines and officials. all consider *A , not just better, but also prestigious. It's a status thing. Being admitted to "exclusive club" is a matter of pride. It's ridiculous that people who are supposed to be running a business are emotionally handicapped with this obsession with "status". Regardless of duplicity on LH's part, it's time to move on.
Let Jet join the alliance. Make LH pay. jet will find out that *A is not the prize it (former) thinks it (latter) was. If GoI has a backbone, LH might come to regret the game it played. There was no reason to grant favours to LH. This entire episode smells so Indian. You need or want something, find an inside connection, bribe if you have to, never mind about meeting the requirements. Bribing LH was the easiest way to get into "the exclusive club". Bribes are not refundable. Fees are insignificant. There is no reason the GoI has to keep on giving.

If true, this will make it easier for Jet to get their wish and join Star. And that will be unfortunate for Jet, in my opinion.
I agree with this too. Our reasons are probably different.

As for Air India, I don't care what happens to them in terms of alliance membership, so long as the wretched beast dies a quick death.
AI is not about to go away. I would be happy to fly AI if it met my schedule, and more often if it joined the alliance that gets the most of my business.

Unfortunately, we have a bad news for Air India. They won't be joined the Star Alliance. We are very disappointing news to hear.

http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/industry-insights/aviation/air-india-bid-to-join-star-alliance-fails-to-gain-lift-off

http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/air-indias-membership-application-to-star-alliance-rejected-17293

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ais-star-dream-ends/482772/

Sorry to say that AI was unable to joined the Star Alliance. :(

Perhaps, they will have find another Alliance. Either way Oneworld or Skyteam.

THE REAL NEWS would be 'AI finally joins Star':D

Will not happen any time soon...

It would be better for Star because they need an Indian airline to succeed globally.
IT was going to help OW a lot but they backed or of the offer...
(It would also help because I could redeem AC miles on AI YQ free. I don't care about it on revenue tickets because I don't pay it, but, on award tickets, I really care.)
EDIT: Except WS because $15 isn't worth the effort to remove.

THE REAL NEWS would be 'AI finally joins Star':D

Will not happen any time soon...

Sorry, man! They won't work. There is nothing can be done for now. From now on, AI will have find another alliance.

For anyone interested, a related thread now running in the OW forum:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/oneworld/1376193-air-india-could-team-up-ba-join-oneworld.html

For anyone interested, a related thread now running in the OW forum:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/oneworld/1376193-air-india-could-team-up-ba-join-oneworld.html

Demonstrates how awful AI's reputation is perfectly. AI could be the best airline in the world, but as long as people perceive it as poor, it's reputation is going to suck.

Demonstrates how awful AI's reputation is perfectly. AI could be the best airline in the world, but as long as people perceive it as poor, it's reputation is going to suck.

As the great man Navjot Singh Siddhu once said, "If ifs and buts were pots and pans, there would be no tinkers"

AI will never be anywhere near the best airline in the World. It has less to do with perception and more to do with the fact that it is still run as a Government department from the Socialist era.

Shut it down and use taxpayers money towards better use.

As the great man Navjot Singh Siddhu once said, "If ifs and buts were pots and pans, there would be no tinkers" A profound saying. Mr Siddhu got it wrong though.

AI will never be anywhere near the best airline in the World. It has less to do with perception and more to do with the fact that it is still run as a Government department from the Socialist era.

Shut it down and use taxpayers money towards better use.

The above is a perfect example of perception being more powerful than reality. All businesses in India, whether Govt run or privately run suffer from drawbacks of culture and attitude.
Aren't people saying that Jet Airways looks more and more like AI. Does the govt run Jet? Did the Govt force Jet?
Whatever happens to AI is not very relevant here. The Govt should take a decision on the application and it's free to do what it wants with AI and LH.

THE REAL NEWS would be 'AI finally joins Star':D

Will not happen any time soon...

News is new information, not a snippet that makes a big splash.:D

A profound saying. Mr Siddhu got it wrong though.

navjot singh siddhu can never be wrong....:p

navjot singh siddhu can never be wrong....:p

I must have a death wish. Mr. Siddhu has no sense of rhyme or reason. :D

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride
If turnips were swords, i'd wear one by my side
If ifs and ands were pots and pans,
there'd be no need for tinkers' hands.

I must have a death wish. Mr. Siddhu has no sense of rhyme or reason. :D

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride
If turnips were swords, i'd wear one by my side
If ifs and ands were pots and pans,
there'd be no need for tinkers' hands.

there is nothing wrong with any of these....sidhuism rocks....:p

there is nothing wrong with any of these....sidhuism rocks....:p

In that case, we can blame it on lack of reason. :D

In that case, we can blame it on lack of reason. :D

quite true....there is no reason behind sidhuisms....:D

AI had entry barriers due to their IT and Star Alliance invited them to join in 2007. I fully understand y they were booted from joining after 3 years of waiting for them to join and not enough progress was made how much longer was star alliance supposed to wait for them to be fully ready to join. Jet Airways is way closer to Star Alliance then sky team with a hub at brussels which is a star alliance hub.

Now that Jet are on a one way road which ends with Star Membership and as Jet think they are as good as SQ.....here is my wish list of improvements:

1) Better ground facilities at BOM and DEL. A premium check in area combined with a dedicated lounge facility matching the standards of SQ and LH. I'm sorry but a personal escort and the use of the LH lounge does not cut the mustard with me.

2) Better reward seat availability otherwise anyone with a half decent brain cell will switch to Miles and More or United's Mileage Plus.

3) Improvement onboard with an updated IFE, Catering (improvement on the western side). Jet are stagnating.

4) Improvements in the domestic product. Kill of Jet Konnect now that you have the elusive star feed.

5) Genuine BOM or DEL hub. Where domestic flights can feed international flights within a 2-3 hr window and vice versa.

6) A few new routes to places like Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Zurich, Frankfurt, Paris, Addis Ababa etc etc.

Now that Jet are on a one way road which ends with Star Membership and as Jet think they are as good as SQ.....here is my wish list of improvements:

1) Better ground facilities at BOM and DEL. A premium check in area combined with a dedicated lounge facility matching the standards of SQ and LH. I'm sorry but a personal escort and the use of the LH lounge does not cut the mustard with me.

2) Better reward seat availability otherwise anyone with a half decent brain cell will switch to Miles and More or United's Mileage Plus.

3) Improvement onboard with an updated IFE, Catering (improvement on the western side). Jet are stagnating.

4) Improvements in the domestic product. Kill of Jet Konnect now that you have the elusive star feed.

5) Genuine BOM or DEL hub. Where domestic flights can feed international flights within a 2-3 hr window and vice versa.

6) A few new routes to places like Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Zurich, Frankfurt, Paris, Addis Ababa etc etc.

You're well in the realm of fantasy with those! Best to stick to something more realistic.

This is Jet, remember? Improvements to the customer experience are anathema. Unless it's crockery.

You're well in the realm of fantasy with those! Best to stick to something more realistic.

This is Jet, remember? Improvements to the customer experience are anathema. Unless it's crockery.

I must be delirious from the 28 cups of black coffee i had this morning...

Ouch ! 28 ? Rough night last night ?

Seriously though, Jet's biggest fail, in my opinion, comes at the airport, especially at their home base.

There really is no difference in terms of ground services or amenities when flying Jet Airways or Al Yemda out of Bombay.

Ouch ! 28 ? Rough night last night ?

Seriously though, Jet's biggest fail, in my opinion, comes at the airport, especially at their home base.

There really is no difference in terms of ground services or amenities when flying Jet Airways or Al Yemda out of Bombay.

Totally agree...they are shockingly bad on the ground.

International wise out of BOM they have:

2 x LHR (76 premium seats)
1 x BRU-EWR (30)
1 x HKG (30)
1 x SIN (30)
2 x BKK (32)
3 x DXB (44)
1 x DOH (16)
1 x AUH (16)
1 x RUH (16)
1 x KTM (16)
1 x CMB (16)
1 x DAC (16)
1 x MCT (16)
1 x RUH (16)
1 x KWI (16)
and probably a few more middle east flights making a grant total of at least:

386 premium seats per day through BOM and they cannot even provide a basic lounge for their home clientele. All this excuse waiting for new terminal is crap. They have been flying international for about almost 8 years with zero ground experiance improvement.

Even in its international heyday at around 2007-2008, there unique selling point was the escort from check in to the gate and hilariously the ground staff even pointed me to the wrong seat.

Had booked 1a and she pointed to 2a whilst proudly proclaiming that it was 1a!

I know that Kingfisher has been the butt of many jokes recently but at least they tried to create a lounge for their international travellers. They had a complex in Bangalore and had something in Delhi before it all went pear shaped!

A damn sight better than what Jet have attempted.

Hong Kong has First too (never mind that it's perpetually empty) plus there's 4 flights to Dubai I think and more than a daily to a couple of other destinations. There's also Bahrain and Dammam and Sharjah and Jeddah

So maybe 450-ish seats, which isn't a small number (though dismally low as a proportion of overall capacity - BA have as many F+J seats on one flight as Jet do on both combined, never mind WTP).

And what do you mean attempted? Jet haven't attempted anything at BOM, where they're just Al Yemda in Roberto Cappucci clothing.

But that's patent Jet : after the hosre has bolted. Maybe.

All this excuse waiting for new terminal is crap.

truth is they don't want to invest in Lounges. For example, Delhi has enough place for new lounges to come up, even LH and SQ have put up lounges there, so, 9W is not getting the space is crap.

So maybe 450-ish seats, which isn't a small number (though dismally low as a proportion of overall capacity - BA have as many F+J seats on one flight as Jet do on both combined, never mind WTP).



That is probably about 10% of its international capacity which is incredibly poor considering that they are paying over the top fuel costs for half their flights (naturally as they all begin and end in India).

They failed to grasp the premium market a few years ago. They have finally revamped their B77W capacity but instead of putting in more J and possibly having a Y+ product, they go and stick in an extra 30 Y seats. All they are doing is diluting their yields by adding more southall travel cheap as chips tickets.

They will find that they need to sell even more premium tickets to compensate for the high loads/low yields down the back. I can say with great confidence that no Indian or Indian origin pax travelling on Jet Airways economy pays more than the highest of the 3 lowest fare buckets...T, N, V class (whatever the 3 lowest are).

By adding more backpack groups and trying to feed DAC, KTM, BKK etc etc they are not exactly making any extra revenue. E.g LHR-BOM returns cost about £500 whereas LHR-BOM-BKK return costs £550. So all Jet are getting is an extra £50 for another 6 hours of flying.

Bonkers! Premium fares are where the money is. Their premium to Economy ratio is too low!

Bonkers! Premium fares are where the money is. Their premium to Economy ratio is too low!

Well, only if you have a large premium captive audience. EK earns 80% of their profits in economy, there is a lot of money to be made there if they get the westbound traffic right with the BRU hub and direct service to secondary cities in India.

Now that Jet are on a one way road which ends with Star Membership and as Jet think they are as good as SQ.....here is my wish list of improvements:

1) Better ground facilities at BOM and DEL. A premium check in area combined with a dedicated lounge facility matching the standards of SQ and LH. I'm sorry but a personal escort and the use of the LH lounge does not cut the mustard with me.

2) Better reward seat availability otherwise anyone with a half decent brain cell will switch to Miles and More or United's Mileage Plus.

3) Improvement onboard with an updated IFE, Catering (improvement on the western side). Jet are stagnating.

4) Improvements in the domestic product. Kill of Jet Konnect now that you have the elusive star feed.

5) Genuine BOM or DEL hub. Where domestic flights can feed international flights within a 2-3 hr window and vice versa.

6) A few new routes to places like Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Zurich, Frankfurt, Paris, Addis Ababa etc etc.
If it's good for their business, or common sense, why is it imperative now that *A might in their future. IT should have been done already.

The 5th wish is an example. A vast majority of EU and NA flights still arrive and depart at ungodly hours while Indian traffic is asleep. Why should an international pax arriving at midnight have to wait until 6:00 a.m. to make a connection? Why has it not occurred to those who manage/run the airline. Other international airlines arrive in and depart when India sleeps, you (whether AI or Jet) do the same. You can't be better by doing what others do. Hence my comments here, that in the long run, Jet is not likely to be that different from AI.

That is probably about 10% of its international capacity which is incredibly poor considering that they are paying over the top fuel costs for half their flights (naturally as they all begin and end in India).

They failed to grasp the premium market a few years ago. They have finally revamped their B77W capacity but instead of putting in more J and possibly having a Y+ product, they go and stick in an extra 30 Y seats. All they are doing is diluting their yields by adding more southall travel cheap as chips tickets.

They will find that they need to sell even more premium tickets to compensate for the high loads/low yields down the back. I can say with great confidence that no Indian or Indian origin pax travelling on Jet Airways economy pays more than the highest of the 3 lowest fare buckets...T, N, V class (whatever the 3 lowest are).

By adding more backpack groups and trying to feed DAC, KTM, BKK etc etc they are not exactly making any extra revenue. E.g LHR-BOM returns cost about £500 whereas LHR-BOM-BKK return costs £550. So all Jet are getting is an extra £50 for another 6 hours of flying.

Bonkers! Premium fares are where the money is. Their premium to Economy ratio is too low!
India is just not a market for premium traffic to/from anywhere. Airlines grew by capturing IR passengers. A handful of premium passengers on FT isn't enough to fill an airlines' coffers. What Jet, and any Indian carrier needs to do is offer reliable service for passengers. That's difficult to do given that much of Indian traffic is made up of occasional flyers, or a handful of frequent flyers for whom the most coveted benefit is an upgrade to the premium class, the revenue producing class.
Catering to traffic as diverse as Indian traffic (ranging from well educated professionals to well connected politicos with pot bellied local Indian business man in the middle) is not an easy job.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jet-airways-may-not-join-star-alliance/993545/0
Star Alliance, the world’s largest airline alliance, may not get any member airline from India — one of the world’s largest growing aviation market.

After the 27-strong member alliance rejected Air India’s application for a membership, Jet Airways, who is in talks with the alliance, may decide against joining the group.

“We are talking to all three alliances and may not join Star Alliance because they already have a strong member in this side of the world,” said a senior Jet executive on condition of anonymity.

The Naresh Goyal-promoted airline is also in talks with global alliances Oneworld and SkyTeam.

“We do not know how much will we benefit by joining the alliance with Singapore already a member. There is a thinking that the benefits will not be much from Star Alliance and our talks with the other two airline alliances is also on,” he said.

Jet Airways was invited by the alliance to become its member on the grounds that India, being a large market, can have two members in the alliance.

To facilitate Jet Airways’ entry, Star Alliance had put a condition before the civil aviation ministry to allow both Air India and Jet Airways to join the alliance together. The ministry, however, had said that Jet will only be allowed to join after Air India completes its joining.

After keeping Air India’s membership on hold for a year, the alliance decided not to suspend the national carrier’s membership on the ground that it had not fulfilled the criteria it had agreed to.

Air India had also paid around Rs 55 crore as joining fee to the alliance.

A query sent to Jet Airways did not elicit any response.

Star Alliance has Lufthansa, Air Canada, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways and Swiss, among other members.
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The AoI Alliance Saga continues...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jet-airways-may-not-join-star-alliance/993545/0

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The AoI Alliance Saga continues...

Jet is a pain in the X*&^ for redeeming award tickets. Prob makes almost no difference for star alliance members unless Jet is going to change their silly rules on redemption. They were Delta partners and their policy was a lot stricter than deltas.

Oh, right, of course. Since SQ joined yesterday they seem to have had a change of heart on joining *A :rolleyes:

HHAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

The JetZophrenia's only exacerbating.

Whilst I still say going Sky will be a much better choide for Jet than to go Star, I also must repeat : HHAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH HHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHHHAHAAHAHAHAH HHAAHHHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHHHAHAH !

Anita madam got up from the wrong side of the bed ?

here we go again....this is a never ending saga....:rolleyes:

here we go again....this is a never ending saga....:rolleyes:

Seriously.

Jet seem to be living with the conviction that everything else is static and the world will wait for them.

What do they mean talking with Skyteam. Delta kicked them out as a partner. seems unlikely they would be accepted by skyteam. also they talk about sq being with star. Did they forget oneworld has cathay??

These guys are nuts

also they talk about sq being with star. Did they forget oneworld has cathay??

These guys are nuts

Indeed, but SQ has far better coverage in India than CX (and probably a healthier overlap with 9W destinations).

This all may or may not be relevant. My own guess is that 9W wants to be "on par" with SQ in the alliance in terms of being able to protect its F award inventory etc, and that * wasn't too impressed with the idea. Regardless of the in-flight experience, 9W ain't no SQ :D

I'm guessing that 9W overall is not exactly thrilled its relatively weak bargaining position w.r.t. *A, esp. when * holds many of the cards in terms of having excellent coverage of most major (business) destinations in India with LH and SQ (and to a lesser degree TG).

While I'm sure * would love to get feeders from 9W, their potential high revenue pax are likely to already be concentrated in the cities now served by SQ and LH (BOM, DEL, HYD, BLR, PNQ, MAA etc); so the delta would largely be the leisure feed. Which helps loads but not revenue.

Pure speculation, of course :)

Indeed, but SQ has far better coverage in India than CX (and probably a healthier overlap with 9W destinations).

This all may or may not be relevant. My own guess is that 9W wants to be "on par" with SQ in the alliance in terms of being able to protect its F award inventory etc, and that * wasn't too impressed with the idea. Regardless of the in-flight experience, 9W ain't no SQ :D

I'm guessing that 9W overall is not exactly thrilled its relatively weak bargaining position w.r.t. *A, esp. when * holds many of the cards in terms of having excellent coverage of most major (business) destinations in India with LH and SQ (and to a lesser degree TG).

While I'm sure * would love to get feeders from 9W, their potential high revenue pax are likely to already be concentrated in the cities now served by SQ and LH (BOM, DEL, HYD, BLR, PNQ, MAA etc); so the delta would largely be the leisure feed. Which helps loads but not revenue.

Pure speculation, of course :)

I think you're giving Jet far too much credit. I imagine, rather, that the decision was precipitated by a conversation more on the lines of:

NG : Arrey, Anita, now new vanda's come. Star looked like a done deal after the beastly Air India realised they can't stand in our way for anything (your idea of 10 khokhas instead of two helped, of course!).
AG : What happened now?
NG : Arrey, Anita, now Star is making all these demands. They want to make sure we make changes to be in line with the rest of the alliance.
AG : What are they talking about? There's nothing we need to change... We're perfect as we are. If anything, they need to change to be more like us.
NG : I know, right? But, arrey, Anita, they're going on about things like connectivity, image, standards and the like. And - get this - your pet Jet Privilege.
AG : W%$%T&*@F? What? Who do they think they are? Don't they know we're Jet Airways? We're the best. Everything about us is the best. Ever. We don't need to improve anything. Hell, we couldn't even if we wanted to, because there is no room for improvement. We're that good. And I've made sure of that.
NG : I know, Anita, I know. But arrey, Anita, what to do.
AG : Let's call Paris and London and see what they offer us. Shouldn't be a problem, because everyone knows we're amazing and they would be lucky to have us.
NG : Arrey, Anita.... you're a genius!
AG : I know!

I think you're giving Jet far too much credit. I imagine, rather, that the decision was precipitated by a conversation more on the lines of:

NG : Arrey, Anita, now new vanda's come. Star looked like a done deal after the beastly Air India realised they can't stand in our way for anything (your idea of 10 khokhas instead of two helped, of course!).
AG : What happened now?
NG : Arrey, Anita, now Star is making all these demands. They want to make sure we make changes to be in line with the rest of the alliance.
AG : What are they talking about? There's nothing we need to change... We're perfect as we are. If anything, they need to change to be more like us.
NG : I know, right? But, arrey, Anita, they're going on about things like connectivity, image, standards and the like. And - get this - your pet Jet Privilege.
AG : W%$%T&*@F? What? Who do they think they are? Don't they know we're Jet Airways? We're the best. Everything about us is the best. Ever. We don't need to improve anything. Hell, we couldn't even if we wanted to, because there is no room for improvement. We're that good. And I've made sure of that.
NG : I know, Anita, I know. But arrey, Anita, what to do.
AG : Let's call Paris and London and see what they offer us. Shouldn't be a problem, because everyone knows we're amazing and they would be lucky to have us.
NG : Arrey, Anita.... you're a genius!
AG : I know!

LMAO!

What do they mean talking with Skyteam. Delta kicked them out as a partner. seems unlikely they would be accepted by skyteam. also they talk about sq being with star. Did they forget oneworld has cathay??

These guys are nuts

Delta did not kick them out. Partnerships are not permanent. When the term of a partnership ends, it may not be renewed. Jet probably decided not to renew the agreement as it is not thinking of joining an alliance.

There are also clauses that either party may terminate the agreement at anytime after notifying the other party in a manner stipulated by the agreement. Or When

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/jet-airways-may-not-join-star-alliance/993545/0

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The AoI Alliance Saga continues...

“We do not know how much will we benefit by joining the alliance with Singapore already a member. There is a thinking that the benefits will not be much from Star Alliance and our talks with the other two airline alliances is also on,” he said.

It took Jet so long to figure this out? Star alliance groupies will never get it.
Jet will be crushed between SQ and LH if it joins the alliance.

Is this IA reporter expressing his opinion, or facts? Intrigue and rama continues.
To facilitate Jet Airways’ entry, Star Alliance had put a condition before the civil aviation ministry to allow both Air India and Jet Airways to join the alliance together. The ministry, however, had said that Jet will only be allowed to join after Air India completes its joining.
After keeping Air India’s membership on hold for a year, the alliance decided not to suspend accept the national carrier’s membership on the ground that it had not fulfilled the criteria it had agreed to.

If history is any guide, the French did not make it although they tried very hard. I think Jet will go to OneWorld, the weakest alliance.

I think you're giving Jet far too much credit. I imagine, rather, that the decision was precipitated by a conversation more on the lines of:

NG : Arrey, Anita, now new vanda's come. Star looked like a done deal after the beastly Air India realised they can't stand in our way for anything (your idea of 10 khokhas instead of two helped, of course!).
AG : What happened now?
NG : Arrey, Anita, now Star is making all these demands. They want to make sure we make changes to be in line with the rest of the alliance.
AG : What are they talking about? There's nothing we need to change... We're perfect as we are. If anything, they need to change to be more like us.
NG : I know, right? But, arrey, Anita, they're going on about things like connectivity, image, standards and the like. And - get this - your pet Jet Privilege.
AG : W%$%T&*@F? What? Who do they think they are? Don't they know we're Jet Airways? We're the best. Everything about us is the best. Ever. We don't need to improve anything. Hell, we couldn't even if we wanted to, because there is no room for improvement. We're that good. And I've made sure of that.
NG : I know, Anita, I know. But arrey, Anita, what to do.
AG : Let's call Paris and London and see what they offer us. Shouldn't be a problem, because everyone knows we're amazing and they would be lucky to have us.
NG : Arrey, Anita.... you're a genius!
AG : I know!

:D

You know, I think its gotten to the point where all the alliances should just give up on recruiting an indian member for a little while. All the airlines there have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are completely inept/insane.

Jet should join oneworld. Less competition than Star, but at the same time oneworld has decent coverage of India that travellers will start to consider Jet for their travels. The rest of the oneworld charge fuel surcharges on mileage redemption and this will be in line with Jet's redemption.

Jet should join oneworld. Less competition than Star, but at the same time oneworld has decent coverage of India that travellers will start to consider Jet for their travels. The rest of the oneworld charge fuel surcharges on mileage redemption and this will be in line with Jet's redemption.

Most of Star does too. KLM/AF are the worst at it.

The rest of the oneworld charge fuel surcharges on mileage redemption and this will be in line with Jet's redemption.

i don't think rj does....

OW should step-up and get Jet or Etihad to sign up.. OW loses a lot from lack of decent South Asian partner.. RJ is there but its strength probably lies only in GULF whereas Etihad gives global coverage and Jet gives a lot of Indian Subcontinent options.. OW has stayed stagnant for toooo long..

OW should step-up and get Jet or Etihad to sign up.. OW loses a lot from lack of decent South Asian partner.. RJ is there but its strength probably lies only in GULF whereas Etihad gives global coverage and Jet gives a lot of Indian Subcontinent options.. OW has stayed stagnant for toooo long..

True, and there have also been some losses (MX - reversible? and MA - permanent). That said, MH is on its way on board - finally! And given the various rumors about an ME3 on its way, looks like the ball is finally rolling with most likely EY, or possibly and less likely, QR. And I hear UL is on their way too (Sri Lankan). While it appears that OW is trying to get South Asian coverage without an Indian carrier, 9W would still be a great add. Always assuming they can keep their head above water without diluting the outstanding experience.

However, one thing 9W lacks that most of the other lead OW airlines have is one or more true hubs. BOM doesn't count yet; at least not until the international and domestic connection processes are far more seamless (if not equivalent to, at least aspiring to SIN, HKG etc. for international - and say what you like about AA, no OW member can beat them for ease of domestic connections); until world-class lounges (if not the CCR, at least equivalent to Galleries) are in place and dedicated to OW and not shared; etc. DEL could work if 9W chose to hub there rather than BOM - but IMO 9W isn't yet big enough to have two major hubs (witness BA :D).

http://www.livemint.com/2012/08/28195510/Govt-approves-Jet-Lufthansa-s.html?h=B

The civil aviation ministry has approved a strategic alliance between Jet Airways (India) Ltd, the country’s largest airline by passengers carried, and Deutsche Lufthansa AG that will enable them to sell seats across each other’s networks, in the process pushing state-owned Air India deeper into the red.


Could this be it?

Also, on the bit on SriLankan Airlines, that is confirmed.

http://www.livemint.com/2012/08/28195510/Govt-approves-Jet-Lufthansa-s.html?h=B
So yet another flip-flop from JetZophrenia.

Regardless, this is a good thing. Enough of stupid ministry and even stupider Air India standing in the way for anything.

That said, what is this going to achieve that isn't already happening?

I fear that by hooking it up with Lufthansa, Jet are basically going to ensure they will do for LH in the Subcontinent what Adria do in the Balkans.

In the meantime, Aerolineas are the latest to join an alliance : Skyteam effective today.

It's amazing how our airlines think the competition is static and the world is going to wait for them. Air India and Jet Airways will continue to delude themselves into thinking they're far more important than they actually are.

DEL could work if 9W chose to hub there rather than BOM - but IMO 9W isn't yet big enough to have two major hubs (witness BA :D).

And there's the little issue of the airport fees which would automatically make this impossible...

And there's the little issue of the airport fees which would automatically make this impossible...

Details, details :D

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/5.0.0.822 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

And there's the little issue of the airport fees which would automatically make this impossible...

Details, details :D

I agree.

How can the airport be blamed when your flight from Johannesburg arrives at 11pm and your "connection" departs at 7 am ? Or when your flight from Goa lands at 8pm and your "connection" to Brussels departs at 3 am?

Why would anyone in their right mind not choose to FlyEmirates ?

Forget Sahar and even Palam. If Jet were given free reign of Changi, do you think they would see any more success, with flight times, ground services and so much else the way they are?

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I agree.

How can the airport be blamed when your flight from Johannesburg arrives at 11pm and your "connection" departs at 7 am ? Or when your flight from Goa lands at 8pm and your "connection" to Brussels departs at 3 am?

Why would anyone in their right mind not choose to FlyEmirates ?

Forget Sahar and even Palam. If Jet were given free reign of Changi, do you think they would see any more success, with flight times, ground services and so much else the way they are?

Perhaps that is really why they prefer to hub BOM... the Sahar Shuffle keeps pax occupied for 3+ hours so they don't have to complain about having too much layover time :p

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-to-pursue-star-alliance-but-airlines-group-non-committal/articleshow/16274352.cms

Jet Airways has now formally applied to the government for permission to join the German carrier Lufthansa-led alliance, which has United Airlines, Singapore Airlines, SWISS, Air China and Turkish Airlines among its members. It has also struck a much larger code share deal with Lufthansa as compared with what exists with Air India.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-to-pursue-star-alliance-but-airlines-group-non-committal/articleshow/16274352.cms

Jet Airways has now formally applied to the government for permission to join the German carrier Lufthansa-led alliance, which has United Airlines, Singapore Airlines, SWISS, Air China and Turkish Airlines among its members. It has also struck a much larger code share deal with Lufthansa as compared with what exists with Air India.

i've said it before & i'll say it again, 'here we go again'....:rolleyes:

i've said it before & i'll say it again, 'here we go again'....:rolleyes:

How long before JetZophrenia says again "we'd rather talk to Paris or London instead" or "we're too good and important to stoop to alliance membership levels".

How long before JetZophrenia says again "we'd rather talk to Paris or London instead" or "we're too good and important to stoop to alliance membership levels".

Mr Goyal and Mr Mallaya both like living in the "cloud" in the "jet "age ;)

Have they ever officially applied in the past though?

Have they ever officially applied in the past though?

This news is from ToI group.. so I will take it with a pinch of salt ;)

Someone just join an alliance. Even SL is beating us out.

Someone just join an alliance. Even SL is beating us out.

GoAir to oneworld?

Had lunch with a friend who is more or less on First name terms with Mr & Mrs G. Got some detailed answers and there is no chance of Jet joining any alliance yet. Basically these are all publicity stunts by Mr G to show creditors and possible lenders that Jet has expansion plans.

He has no plans on Jet joining an alliance, he knows that all 3 of the alliances want Jet on board but he will take his time and basically milk it.

He has no plans on Jet joining an alliance, he knows that all 3 of the alliances want Jet on board but he will take his time and basically milk it.
That's interesting. It seems to me like Jet needs one of the three alliances more than they need it.

That's interesting. It seems to me like Jet needs one of the three alliances more than they need it.

Does it though? What benefit will it get? Don't get me wrong I am not being abrupt, I honestly don't know the benefit it will gain?

Right now it has code share agreements with most of the major airlines anyway so it get's business from them regardless of it being in a alliance? I mean there must be a reason why he doesn't wanna join?

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Had lunch with a friend who is more or less on First name terms with Mr & Mrs G. Got some detailed answers and there is no chance of Jet joining any alliance yet. Basically these are all publicity stunts by Mr G to show creditors and possible lenders that Jet has expansion plans.

He has no plans on Jet joining an alliance, he knows that all 3 of the alliances want Jet on board but he will take his time and basically milk it.

Or claiming that it's a publici stunt is a publicity stunt to make all alliances want it even more. :D
What a circus!

Does it though? What benefit will it get? Don't get me wrong I am not being abrupt, I honestly don't know the benefit it will gain?

Right now it has code share agreements with most of the major airlines anyway so it get's business from them regardless of it being in a alliance? I mean there must be a reason why he doesn't wanna join?
I think we've had this conversation earlier in this thread. Anyway, here's one benefit: by joining an alliance, Jet's passengers can earn elite miles on partner airlines. A simple code share is just not good enough. Someone (especially a business traveler) who wants to fly ORD to BOM will not choose 9W even though the LHR/BRU-BOM segment may have an AA code.


Or claiming that it's a publici stunt is a publicity stunt to make all alliances want it even more. :D
What a circus!
I buy this!

I think we've had this conversation earlier in this thread. Anyway, here's one benefit: by joining an alliance, Jet's passengers can earn elite miles on partner airlines. A simple code share is just not good enough. Someone (especially a business traveler) who wants to fly ORD to BOM will not choose 9W even though the LHR/BRU-BOM segment may have an AA code.


Jet had some good people leading the JP program who wanted to make it a good program at a point of time. As of date, the current head of JP does only has revenue targets to meet (via people I know who work closely with 9w) so all he can do is to tie up more and sell more miles. Hence, what a JP customer wants or is beneficial is not relevant anymore.

Jet had some good people leading the JP program who wanted to make it a good program at a point of time. As of date, the current head of JP does only has revenue targets to meet (via people I know who work closely with 9w) so all he can do is to tie up more and sell more miles. Hence, what a JP customer wants or is beneficial is not relevant anymore.

It does seem like Jet are operating an elaborate Ponzi type scheme with JP....sell more miles, fund the investors....dilute the miles and make them useless...sell the miles, fund the investors, dilute the miles....and the cycle continues...

It does seem like Jet are operating an elaborate Ponzi type scheme with JP....sell more miles, fund the investors....dilute the miles and make them useless...sell the miles, fund the investors, dilute the miles....and the cycle continues...

hate me for this, i have a feeling that the award chart will be gutted sooner than later (also read as enhancement for customers!). so the dilution hasn't happened yet.

I think we've had this conversation earlier in this thread. Anyway, here's one benefit: by joining an alliance, Jet's passengers can earn elite miles on partner airlines. A simple code share is just not good enough. Someone (especially a business traveler) who wants to fly ORD to BOM will not choose 9W even though the LHR/BRU-BOM segment may have an AA code.


I buy this!

Jet has all ready shown that they don't care for their Frequent fliers time and again.

So I think this benefit isn't really what will push them towards joining a alliance. What will?

Jet has all ready shown that they don't care for their Frequent fliers time and again.

So I think this benefit isn't really what will push them towards joining a alliance. What will?

"we are JET, we will always be first choice!"

I hope Kingfisher recovers and gives them a run for their money....Jet position is one of stereotypical arrogance whwn you have no otger competition....

As of right now they have partners across the world. Isn't this what a alliance will offer them anyway? Their customers can route onto other partner flights and they get business from partners customers who come into India.

But if they join a Alliance they will need to give up most of their partners.

I think we've had this conversation earlier in this thread. Anyway, here's one benefit: by joining an alliance, Jet's passengers can earn elite miles on partner airlines. A simple code share is just not good enough. Someone (especially a business traveler) who wants to fly ORD to BOM will not choose 9W even though the LHR/BRU-BOM segment may have an AA code.Jet simply doesn't want to pay the other airlines for their pax on their routes, and would therefore not wish to give EQM (I'm guessing even more expensive than normal miles) to them.

I have seen JetChildren at CI simply pretend to put in my other FF program number after having issued my BP with the JP number...what do you do in that case? Jet retains the pax on it's own program - at a much cheaper rate... (no redemptions possible unless running completely empty in premium cabins, or none at all!)

Jet simply doesn't want to pay the other airlines for their pax on their routes, and would therefore not wish to give EQM (I'm guessing even more expensive than normal miles) to them.

I have seen JetChildren at CI simply pretend to put in my other FF program number after having issued my BP with the JP number...what do you do in that case? Jet retains the pax on it's own program - at a much cheaper rate... (no redemptions possible unless running completely empty in premium cabins, or none at all!)

:td:
I have faced this situation once too few years back while taking a 9W flight wherein I wanted to put a M&M number.. and this time since the BP showed 9W number, I could not even get this credited to M&M later.. Miles were quite less and didnt bother to write mails etc to get this done but this is :td:
But, then I have also faced this problem when taking a AF flight and trying to put a JP number but that was because the CI staff at PRG airport never heard of JP.. I left the BP blank and claimed it later :)

I'm in a rush, so quickly:
eff mid-March, 9W to launch BLR-MUC into LH's terminal

Seems more like a 9W-LH code share at the moment.. But definitely a step towards *A eventually.

I'm in a rush, so quickly:
eff mid-March, 9W to launch BLR-MUC into LH's terminal

Can you provide a cite for this ? Like everyone else does?

Seems more like a 9W-LH code share at the moment.. But definitely a step towards *A eventually.

9W uses 4 digit flight numbers for codeshares.

9W uses 4 digit flight numbers for codeshares.
I meant a 9W operated flight with a LH code share on it. One flight does not indicate the start of an alliance.

I'm in a rush, so quickly:
eff mid-March, 9W to launch BLR-MUC into LH's terminal

Inference is strikingly similar to bangaloreaviation.com

Inference is strikingly similar to bangaloreaviation.com

Yeah. Devesh and I were chatting about it this morning before we put up our respective posts...

Any link PVD?

Any link PVD?

Sure. It's in German though:
http://www.munich-airport.de/de/consumer/fluginfo/flugplan/index.jsp

For Zielflughafen, select BLR, and then SUCHEN! ;)

I'm in a rush, so quickly:
eff mid-March, 9W to launch BLR-MUC into LH's terminal

^

Seems more like a 9W-LH code share at the moment.. But definitely a step towards *A eventually.
Interesting. I'm new to this thread and discussion, but I'm curious around 9W's value proposition with the DEL-MXP route. If they are planning on joining *A, they'll probably loose any traction with Alitalia; it seems like there are many cities in Europe better suited for a direct Delhi route.

Interesting. I'm new to this thread and discussion, but I'm curious around 9W's value proposition with the DEL-MXP route. If they are planning on joining *A, they'll probably loose any traction with Alitalia; it seems like there are many cities in Europe better suited for a direct Delhi route.
9W's operation there is mainly O&D - European transfer traffic comes mostly BRU, while some North American traffic also comes through LHR...

Inference is strikingly similar to bangaloreaviation.com

Are you surprised?

That said, if this does happen, hopefully it will work out for Jet and lead to better things.

Even though I think it's like the virgin being told to fly herself to the volcano to be sacrificed.

(And once confirmed, AI should pull out of Frankfurt. Of course, they won't, and will continue to burn through thousands of crores of our hard-earned money)

That said, if this does happen, hopefully it will work out for Jet and lead to better things.
I agree. MUC is a much better hub than BRU in terms of sheer volume.

Interesting. I'm new to this thread and discussion, but I'm curious around 9W's value proposition with the DEL-MXP route. If they are planning on joining *A, they'll probably loose any traction with Alitalia; it seems like there are many cities in Europe better suited for a direct Delhi route.

No *A. Please read my post a page or two up. Jet all ready code shares with half the Airline industry. Have a look here (http://www.jetairways.com/EN/IN/JetPrivilege/Partners/Airlinepartners.aspx)

That is most of the major partners in all alliances. They will not join an alliance as the current situation is more beneficial to them. They are getting business across the board, they join a alliance and it will cut their business down to just one alliance.

No *A. Please read my post a page or two up. Jet all ready code shares with half the Airline industry. Have a look here (http://www.jetairways.com/EN/IN/JetPrivilege/Partners/Airlinepartners.aspx)

That is most of the major partners in all alliances. They will not join an alliance as the current situation is more beneficial to them. They are getting business across the board, they join a alliance and it will cut their business down to just one alliance.Which is why they are reportedly talking to Etihad - which isn't a member of any alliance either...

Which is why they are reportedly talking to Etihad - which isn't a member of any alliance either...

But isn't EY all ready a Codeshare partner?

Here is my post (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/19325097-post159.html)

But isn't EY all ready a Codeshare partner?

Here is my post (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/19325097-post159.html)EY was in talks to invest in Jet...

EY was in talks to invest in Jet...

That would be positive for Jet.

EY was in talks to invest in Jet...
Didn't EY buy a stake in Air Berlin as well? I guess EY likes to invest in bottom feeder low cost carriers. ;)

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EY was in talks to invest in Jet...
Didn't EY buy a stake in Air Berlin as well? I guess EY likes to invest in bottom feeder low cost carriers. ;)

Hee hee hee !

Sure. It's in German though:
http://www.munich-airport.de/de/consumer/fluginfo/flugplan/index.jsp

For Zielflughafen, select BLR, and then SUCHEN! ;)

Ok why is there still no announcement about this from Jet?

Ok why is there still no announcement about this from Jet?

I'm waiting on a comment from 9W South Europe. Germany is categorized as North Europe by 9W, but I don't know anybody in that division...

I'm waiting on a comment from 9W South Europe. Germany is categorized as North Europe by 9W, but I don't know anybody in that division...
Playing a similar role for both AI and Jet now?

any updates? will they join or not? i hope they join oneworld

any updates? will they join or not? i hope they join oneworld
Join anything but just join.

i hope they join oneworld

i really hope they don't....unless of course there is no other choice....

i really hope they don't....unless of course there is no other choice....

Why is that? Because you prefer Sky/Star alliance and would like to see Jet in one of them? Or because you like oneworld and don't want Jet to pollute it? ;)

Why is that? Because you prefer Sky/Star alliance and would like to see Jet in one of them? Or because you like oneworld and don't want Jet to pollute it? ;)

take your pick....no reason is better or worse than the other....:p

take your pick....no reason is better or worse than the other....:p

Hehehe. I personally don't care where Jet end up (even if it's the rubbish bin), but, for their own sake, I think they should pick SkyTeam.

Hehehe. I personally don't care where Jet end up (even if it's the rubbish bin), but, for their own sake, I think they should pick SkyTeam.

that would probably be my pick as well....followed by star & then one world....

but like i have said before, just join any alliance & be done with it....

I must say I take back everything that I said about Jet premium cabins in the last 1 year. Been flying Virgin, Emirates, EY and BA to/from UK and baring the stop options Jet beats but the direct flights by a mile.

Virgin has similar seats but so narrow and much shorter in length and their food is worse then you get on Jet connect business.

I thought Jet miles were useless, try using VS miles and you will see Jet's are actually decent.

Well, Jet is quite up to par with United's non-revs...

Today the biz cabin had 2 uniformed FAs out of 8 seats - I had a confirmed upgrade but couldn't find the vouchers.

So, a Plat (or any other status tier) would not displace them, I gather...

Fit to join *A now!

Well, Jet is quite up to par with United's non-revs...

Today the biz cabin had 2 uniformed FAs out of 8 seats - I had a confirmed upgrade but couldn't find the vouchers.

So, a Plat (or any other status tier) would not displace them, I gather...

Fit to join *A now!

past week I've seen a lot of non-revs .. BOM-DEL last saturday, 28 seats J on the B739s, but 9W had 4-5 deadheading uniforms. And they dragged me to the last minute to confirm my upgrade against the voucher.

DEL-BOM yesterday on a 738, 8 seats in premiere, 3 were open when I arrived for my check-in 2 hours prior. they took all the umm, hmm, err, oh , but,,, hoping I'd just take 10A. eventually, I got 1A. Arrived on the plane to see 3 9W pax out of the 8 seats.

And before anyone comments on my status with 9W and entitlement, ;) yesterday's voucher was a Platinum one, which I'd traded with a buddy!

Why is that? Because you prefer Sky/Star alliance and would like to see Jet in one of them? Or because you like oneworld and don't want Jet to pollute it? ;)

LIES!! Obviously he doesn't want Jet's exceptionally exquisite standards polluted by being in a bottom-of-the-fish-barrel alliance like oneworld. I expected that you of all people would know this, jasepl :p :p

And before anyone comments on my status with 9W and entitlement, ;)

:D

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Hehehe. I personally don't care where Jet end up (even if it's the rubbish bin), but, for their own sake, I think they should pick SkyTeam.

that would probably be my pick as well....followed by star & then one world....

but like i have said before, just join any alliance & be done with it....

Like you, I too don't care where Jet ends up as long as it ends up soon somewhere.
I also think Jet will have a better chance to grow with ST. I believe that to be true for AI too. Since I am not supportive of two full service carriers joining one alliance, both should not join ST. If *Aliiance flyers on this forum want to be arbiters of who should join whom, the ball is in their court. JET or AI. Your choice. It's best to end this drama ASAP.

It appears that EY would like to acquire 24% stake in 9W. That means ST would be logical choice for 9W.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/Ntgs2hrCbGTopfMeSIaPfJ/Jet-Etihad-stake-sale-talks-nearing-closure--report.html

It appears that EY would like to acquire 24% stake in 9W. That means ST would be logical choice for 9W.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/Ntgs2hrCbGTopfMeSIaPfJ/Jet-Etihad-stake-sale-talks-nearing-closure--report.html

I'm not sure it would be the logical choice, though it could potentially lead to friction with LH given their stance towards gulf carriers plus the airberlin stake.

It appears that EY would like to acquire 24% stake in 9W. That means ST would be logical choice for 9W.


EY currently has a grand total of 5 codeshares with ST, none more are forecasted so far, and this does not guarantee they will enter the alliance, neither Hogan has expressed any intention to, therefore arguing that 9W will enter ST due to this share purchase is stretching the facts a lot IMHO. I am more in agreement to previous post statement, but then I guess 9W is not exactly thrilled to be involved in an alliance partnership with Lufthansa.

EY currently has a grand total of 5 codeshares with ST, none more are forecasted so far, and this does not guarantee they will enter the alliance, neither Hogan has expressed any intention to, therefore arguing that 9W will enter ST due to this share purchase is stretching the facts a lot IMHO. I am more in agreement to previous post statement, but then I guess 9W is not exactly thrilled to be involved in an alliance partnership with Lufthansa.

Not only that, but Hogan also stated that etihad had no plans to join skyteam right now.
http://www.kippreport.com/2012/10/we-have-no-intention-of-joining-skyteam-etihad/

Sure Jet Airways could join skyteam, but they could have joined 3 years ago. If relations between Etihad and Air France continue to warm, that may change, but as it stands there's little reason for Etihad to do AF such a huge favor.

Jet has asked Ministry of Civil Aviation permission to join Star, however AI is till opposing it. It will be interesting to see what Etihad thinks about it. Still EY only owns 24%, and Jet is free to do what it needs to be profitable.

Jet has asked Ministry of Civil Aviation permission to join Star, however AI is till opposing it. It will be interesting to see what Etihad thinks about it. Still EY only owns 24%, and Jet is free to do what it needs to be profitable.I think Jet is doing quite fine as it is.

All my domestic flights are chock-a-block, that's for sure!

I think Jet is doing quite fine as it is.

Tell that to it's bleeding balance sheet and dwindling marketshare and disappearing destinations !

Tell that to it's bleeding balance sheet and dwindling marketshare and disappearing destinations !

Who is taking up 9W's domestic market share?

Who is taking up 9W's domestic market share?

Everyone, evidently. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/india-based-airlines/1410227-dgcas-october-numbers.html)

And how.

Jet has asked Ministry of Civil Aviation permission to join Star, however AI is till opposing it. It will be interesting to see what Etihad thinks about it. Still EY only owns 24%, and Jet is free to do what it needs to be profitable.

Here we go again. Didn't they ask a few months ago too? This is all media speculation to raise share prices and get investors interest.

Tell that to it's bleeding balance sheet and dwindling marketshare and disappearing destinations !I can bet you they are *minting* money and not losing any.

It is only "eyewash".

I can bet you they are *minting* money and not losing any.

It is only "eyewash".

Oohhh... Do tell!

I don't know about minting, but I have heard some chatter about lala-lali and their routing the money through a personally-owned company to keep a lot of it for themselves. I don't know how true that is and, even if it were, if we should be seeing Jet post thousands of crores of profit.

What there is no disputing is that their marketshare has gone down considerably, their quality standards are, comparatively, very nearly abysmal and that they have been dropping destinations at a furious rate and that they're desperate to grab every paisa they can at any cost.

Of course, all those things don't have to imply a drop in profitability; could just be the opposite.

Post Etihad deal, Jet may shift global base to Abu Dhabi (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/post-etihad-deal-jet-may-shift-global-base-to-abu-dhabi/1040000/0)
Etti baby, slip 1600 under the tree, for me
I've been such a clueless JetFail
Etti baby, and hurry with the money, alright

Etti baby, I will move to Abu Dhabi, for you
O my knight in shining armour
Though you don't know what you're getting into

Etti baby, and hurry with the money, alright

I have heard some chatter about lala-lali and their routing the money through a personally-owned company to keep a lot of it for themselves. I don't know how true that is and, even if it were, if we should be seeing Jet post thousands of crores of profit.Based on the loads I have seen, it is probably true - I have heard the same...

Based on the loads I have seen, it is probably true - I have heard the same...

I can confirm the same. Heard from a very solid person high up in the Jet management. They are making very good money right now but they do have to cover the huge losses in the past.

Ok how hard is it to make a decision. They will join or not? Can't they set a deadline date and just make a decision?

Ok how hard is it to make a decision. They will join or not? Can't they set a deadline date and just make a decision?

Simple. They won't. Was told this by someone who has the G man on his mobile quick dial.