Southwest Rapid Rewards - Why does no one like Southwest?

Long time lurker, finally signed up and decided to post since this has been bothering me for a while now. Everyone here always seems to talk about using their miles for UA, Delta and AA flights but rarely ever do I see Southwest. From what I have seen so far, Southwest miles system seems to be superior? For example, I just recently booked a flight for SEA-DWI-SEA on Southwest. It cost me a total of 15,000 points ($300 ticket = 15,000 points in Southwest WGA fares) + $10. I transferred the points from UR so I could have chosen to go to just about any airline I wanted. The same ticket would have cost me 40,000 points on Delta. We aren't even talking about anything close. 15k vs 40k.

So what am I missing here? Why does no one transfer their points to Southwest when it seems to me their system would allow the most bang for your buck. Just the initial 50k UR you get from signing up will get you 3-4 roundtrip flights if they are around 15k ea.

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You got 2 cents per point for your redemption on Southwest. It is possible to redeem points/miles for much greater value than that, especially for premium-class international flights, or for one-ways in markets where last-minute one-way fares are quite expensive.

Southwest redemptions are good for cheap, domestic flights like your example, which are also the type of award flights that UA, Delta, etc. suck for.

That said, most people can afford to pay $300 cash for a domestic coach ticket. Not so much for that $10000 first-class fare you can get with UA etc. miles. Try getting that with Southwest points.

Okay but I am talking about a simple economy class domestic travel which is what most travel is, why does everyone like UA/Delta/AA for those?

Okay but I am talking about a simple economy class domestic travel which is what most travel is, why does everyone like UA/Delta/AA for those?

They don't. Not for awards, anyways. But once you have status, you're looking at first-class vs all-economy, and the miles you end up with are used for the aforementioned expensive tickets.

Long time lurker, finally signed up and decided to post since this has been bothering me for a while now. Everyone here always seems to talk about using their miles for UA, Delta and AA flights but rarely ever do I see Southwest. From what I have seen so far, Southwest miles system seems to be superior? For example, I just recently booked a flight for SEA-DWI-SEA on Southwest. It cost me a total of 15,000 points ($300 ticket = 15,000 points in Southwest WGA fares) + $10. I transferred the points from UR so I could have chosen to go to just about any airline I wanted. The same ticket would have cost me 40,000 points on Delta. We aren't even talking about anything close. 15k vs 40k.

So what am I missing here? Why does no one transfer their points to Southwest when it seems to me their system would allow the most bang for your buck. Just the initial 50k UR you get from signing up will get you 3-4 roundtrip flights if they are around 15k ea.

Southwest points aren't bad if you're interested in redeeming for domestic coach flights, but most folks around here aren't interested in that. Moreover, if you're talking about a fixed redemption rate of two cents per point, why not just get the Fidelity Amex and get your two cents per dollar spent in cash?

I will say that if you're interested in taking a lot of domestic coach flights, getting the WN Companion Pass seems to be a decent choice, and you can apply the bonus points from signing up for the Southwest credit cards toward the 110k points you need to qualify for it.

Ah so Southwest is indeed the right call for transferring my points to for domestic travel then? I thought maybe I am missing some special fares people are obtaining that I am not seeing.

taliesin, I just wanted to use my points I got for signing up, not worried about what I can earn per dollar.

Well that's a loaded question! ;) First, I wouldn't say that no one on here likes Southwest - there is a whole Southwest forum, after all!

You can also find examples of cases where a domestic trip can be had for fewer miles/points on other carriers. As a prior poster noted, the cents per mile return on the miles/points can be significantly greater elsewhere. The cost of earning your points or miles comes into play.

Personally, I'm not going to focus much energy or miles-earning on WN since I mostly redeem miles for international trips. WN won't get me anywhere overseas with their program (outside of their very poorly valued scheme of redeeming for international flights, if they still have that?)

Which isn't to say I won't ever fly WN, or use points for their flights. It's just not a major focuse.

Also many people want to fly where they can obtain upgrades for longer flights, either as complimentary upgrades for elite status or using miles, etc. Or they want an airline that can rebook them on another carrier during irrops. Or don't like the unassigned seats arrangement. But there are many Southwest fans out there, too, who prefer them over other domestics. If they work for you, then don't sweat it!

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Ah so Southwest is indeed the right call for transferring my points to for domestic travel then? I thought maybe I am missing some special fares people are obtaining that I am not seeing.

taliesin, I just wanted to use my points I got for signing up, not worried about what I can earn per dollar.

It depends. BA Avios can offer some very good redemption values on short, nonstop flights on AA or AS, since the BA redemption scheme is distance-based, not zone-based. (Most U.S. FFPs are zone-based.)

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It depends. BA Avios can offer some very good redemption values on short, nonstop flights on AA or AS, since the BA redemption scheme is distance-based, not zone-based. (Most U.S. FFPs are zone-based.)

A good example, I needed a one-way from NYC-CMH. Cash fares for the date I needed were ~$250 and up with the legacy carries and not much less with Southwest. I had other expenses for the trip so wanted to use miles for this flight. I did check WN and the cheapest points redemption was on a flight that cost >15K points. Most flights were >25K points (which is a domestic R/T on most legacy carriers). All required a connection.

Since it's a short distance, I was able to use BA Avios to book a nonstop on AA for 4,000 miles each. So it depends on the situation.

Makes a lot more sense now, basically no one talks about Southwest because most people here are not interested in Economy Domestic travel which is the only thing Southwest is good for. Thanks for the help guys.

P.S. It is not like I have any affinity for Southwest, it just gave me the best point value for the flights I was looking for, and I kept thinking it can't be right because no one ever talks about it on these forums.

Ah so Southwest is indeed the right call for transferring my points to for domestic travel then?

Your question has an embedded premise that is simply, putting it mildly, repugnant to many here. The premise is that it's rarely ever a good idea to transfer very valuable points like Chase Ultimate Rewards to any program for the purpose of domestic coach travel. 15k UR is 15/100ths of way toward an $8,000 ticket that many of us could never afford other than by having miles. In that situation, I'd rather pay cash for domestic coach and save my points.

But taking your question on its own terms, the answer is "sometimes." By and large, it takes 60 Rapid Rewards points for $1 of a Wanna Get Away ticket. That's pretty good -- it means for 15,000 Chase points, you can get a $267 ticket. (You did pretty well -- getting a $300 ticket for 15,000 points is pretty unusual; it's usually pegged a bit closer to 1.67 cents per point, as I understand it.)

Is that always going to be better than using your points some other way, even for domestic travel? Not necessarily. Maybe you need a one-way ticket from Phoenix to Des Moines on a weekday that's selling for $580, but is available using 12,500 UA miles to book on US. That's a better use of 12.5k Chase points. You're really looking to make a blanket generalization when it's not a one-size fits all proposition.

For me, SW almost always has stops or only one nonstop per day, which costs my clients more money, i.e. the money the client saved on the airfare was killed by my billable rate. At this point in my career, there is nothing I value more than my time and connecting flights don't improve my free time. As a result, using SW ends up with unhappy client and less free time.

Plenty of people like Southwest, judging from the size of their fleet, number of passengers, or profits of the company.

But, the reasons WN doesn't have a high profile on FT:

1. No First Class. Those who travel frequently value an upgrade, WN cannot provide that.

2. No international service. Those who travel frequently often want more from their miles than another trip to Buffalo, even if it is to visit family. I can afford another domestic trip, especially if the segments help my status.

3. Connections. While legacies often require connections, WN publishes fares that require double connects, and while it may be a few bucks cheaper, those who travel frequently don't like double connects, when the legacies have one connection at a hub, where those who travel frequently often have club memberships.

4. FF program. While RR is a success for many, I personally would have a situation where the credits would expire before I used them, since I could only use WN for certain routes. And, those who travel frequently often wish to take international trips in premium cabins, which WN cannot do.

5. Route network. WN only serves major airports, and while that is part of their success, it limits use of the airline. Looking at DEN, for example, while WN is competitive for major cities, there are lots of smaller airports that UA and F9 serve that WN doesn't.

So, I certainly would consider WN if they had the only nonstop on a route, but generally speaking they don't work as well for me as the other carriers.

Daze

Your question has an embedded premise that is simply, putting it mildly, repugnant to many here. The premise is that it's rarely ever a good idea to transfer very valuable points like Chase Ultimate Rewards to any program for the purpose of domestic coach travel. 15k UR is 15/100ths of way toward an $8,000 ticket that many of us could never afford other than by having miles. In that situation, I'd rather pay cash for domestic coach and save my points.

But taking your question on its own terms, the answer is "sometimes." By and large, it takes 60 Rapid Rewards points for $1 of a Wanna Get Away ticket. That's pretty good -- it means for 15,000 Chase points, you can get a $267 ticket. (You did pretty well -- getting a $300 ticket for 15,000 points is pretty unusual; it's usually pegged a bit closer to 1.67 cents per point, as I understand it.)

Is that always going to be better than using your points some other way, even for domestic travel? Not necessarily. Maybe you need a one-way ticket from Phoenix to Des Moines on a weekday that's selling for $580, but is available using 12,500 UA miles to book on US. That's a better use of 12.5k Chase points. You're really looking to make a blanket generalization when it's not a one-size fits all proposition.

I understand that people here are not interested in using points for cheap economy travel. But I am not interested in business travel or even international travel. Okay maybe I am but it just is not a priority for me. Yes I could have saved up lots more UR and used it for an $8000 ticket but, is it still a savings if I didn't plan on buying it in the first place?

There actually IS one international travel I am intersted in, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any good way to earn points for it that I have found. I want to fly Emirates to South Asia....

Moreover, if you're talking about a fixed redemption rate of two cents per point, why not just get the Fidelity Amex and get your two cents per dollar spent in cash?

Many WN fliers value the points a little higher than the fixed redemption ratio because award tickets on WN can be cancelled and points re-deposited at any time without any fees (e.g., great for trips you may have to cancel or change last minute).

I will say that if you're interested in taking a lot of domestic coach flights, getting the WN Companion Pass seems to be a decent choice, and you can apply the bonus points from signing up for the Southwest credit cards toward the 110k points you need to qualify for it.

To be clear, unlike AirTran, one does not choose to "apply" the points "toward" the points required to qualify for a Companion Pass on WN - the CP is a special award that is automatically earned if one earns 110k CPQPs in a calendar year...once a CP is earned, one still keeps the 110k points and can use them for flight (or other) award redemptions.

I once had to make domestic trip that was 800 RT. If all I had was SW points it would have been too high. I spent just 25k UA miles. SW is good for cheap flights only. I also need miles for Intl travel.

For cheap, 2hr or shorter domestic flights, Southwest can be great.

I'd never fly them cross country. And of course they are not even an option for international.

I understand that people here are not interested in using points for cheap economy travel. But I am not interested in business travel or even international travel. Okay maybe I am but it just is not a priority for me. Yes I could have saved up lots more UR and used it for an $8000 ticket but, is it still a savings if I didn't plan on buying it in the first place?.

That's a hotly debated issue on flyertalk. My answer has always been pretty much, no -- if you can't afford or would never buy a $10,000 ticket, to say you are getting 10 cents per point if you get a $10,000 retail ticket for 100k points is not necessarily correct. I would put it slightly different -- using points helps me have travel experiences I would never be able to have without them. However one values that is subjective.

I don't necessarily think it's true that people here don't like to use points for economy travel. I think, though, there's a skepticism whether it financially makes the most sense to use points associated with certain travel cards that way -- for example, if that's your primary goal, there are probably cash back cards or other products that make a bit more sense. But the issue there is really about putting spend on a credit card. For example, if you have $1 of spend in a non bonus category, putting it on a Chase UR card to get 1 SW point seems possibly to not be the best option. But if we're talking about what to do with bonus points earned on credit cards, then I guess that consideration is gone.

I will say this -- if you fly SW, and are trying to figure out how to use a 50k bonus, it certainly makes more sense to transfer them to WN and use them to defray Wanna Get Away fares at 1.67 cents per point than to use points for travel or something like that. Plus, WN's program is very flexible and being able to easily cancel reward reservations makes it very versatile if WN flies where you need to. So, long winded way of saying if your desire is to use a sign up bonus to fly domestically, you can do a lot worse than transferring the points to Southwest, that's for sure.

I think SW can have incredible value, especially if you are able to obtain a companion pass. Since I do almost all flying with my SO, I get 0.0334 cents per point redeeming them for wanna get away fares, which is all I ever redeem.

The flexibility and ease of booking that comes along with it is amazing as well. Considering a trip? Go ahead and book when it's cheap, maybe book a few options, then cancel later. It really works great for us. Plus SW is by far the best airline for flying domestic coach.

Those who regularly fly the National Airline of Texas, IMHO are not impressed with $10,000 airline seats. Southwest flyers, at least the legacy flyers, chose to fly for peanuts, rather than fly just plain nuts.:D

The old utility to RR Uno was that you could get RR tickets last minute for a fixed amount if you got stuck with a flight delay or cancellation. RR Uno made for a great travel emergency insurance plan. RR Dos is pretty much worthless, which is why this Southwest legacy flyer rarely flys Southwest anymore.:td:

Southwest redemptions are good for cheap, domestic flights like your example, which are also the type of award flights that UA, Delta, etc. suck for.

That said, most people can afford to pay $300 cash for a domestic coach ticket. Not so much for that $10000 first-class fare you can get with UA etc. miles. Try getting that with Southwest points.

There actually IS one international travel I am intersted in, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any good way to earn points for it that I have found. I want to fly Emirates to South Asia....

You have two options, actually: JL and AS (anticipated "late 2012"). Both are transfer partners of SPG, and there is also an AS credit card, but the bonus on the credit card (25k) is not too great right now. It looks as though you will need a LOT of SPG points.

This loaded thread title reminds me of that old Daily show skit - "5 questions" when Craig Kilborn was hosting & Mike Myers was the guest:

The last question posed was was:

"Canada: what went wrong?"

My answer to the OP's question is simple - I'd like them if they flew to an airport less than 150 miles from FAT.

A good example, I needed a one-way from NYC-CMH...

...Since it's a short distance, I was able to use BA Avios to book a nonstop on AA for 4,000 miles each. So it depends on the situation.

A good example as I often do the same, however, I believe it is 4,500 Avios one way.

A good example as I often do the same, however, I believe it is 4,500 Avios one way.

It is 4,500. I was just using round numbers to illustrate a point, I couldn't look up the receipt from my Droid at the time.

Long time lurker, finally signed up and decided to post since this has been bothering me for a while now. Everyone here always seems to talk about using their miles for UA, Delta and AA flights but rarely ever do I see Southwest. From what I have seen so far, Southwest miles system seems to be superior? For example, I just recently booked a flight for SEA-DWI-SEA on Southwest. It cost me a total of 15,000 points ($300 ticket = 15,000 points in Southwest WGA fares) + $10. I transferred the points from UR so I could have chosen to go to just about any airline I wanted. The same ticket would have cost me 40,000 points on Delta. We aren't even talking about anything close. 15k vs 40k.

So what am I missing here? Why does no one transfer their points to Southwest when it seems to me their system would allow the most bang for your buck.

Okay but I am talking about a simple economy class domestic travel which is what most travel is, why does everyone like UA/Delta/AA for those?

For your example, Southwest isn't a bad redemption. But that same ticket to travel tomorrow might have cost a lot more, without meeting the advance purchase requirements for WGA availability, it might have been a $700 ticket at 100 pt/dollar, for a 70K redemption. On DL or AA, if there's award availability, the price doesn't change (except for the expidite fee, waived for elites), so still just 25K or 40K.

The point is, no program is best for every type of redemption.

Okay but I am talking about a simple economy class domestic travel which is what most travel is, why does everyone like UA/Delta/AA for those?

I did like Southwest when they had RR 1. I got a LOT of free tickets with just Hilton credits and Credit card use alone.

But now that RR 1 is gone not the program for me.

But with Delta, I value MQM's not RDM's. With WN I don't have service non-stop to many cities. With Delta those MQM's provide a lot of benefits Southwest doesn't. If my upgrade doesn't clear I almost always have an exit or economy comfort seat with Delta. With WN even have a-1 boarding pass won't guarantee an exit row if you have a lot of through passenger.

I flew DTW/LHR earlier this month. First of all Southwest doesn't do international but because of my flyingwith Delta I had an entire EC row to myself flying over which meant I could put the arm rests up and lie down and sleep most of the night flying over. When I landed I had access to YOTEL so I was able to shower. Coming back I had lounge access with a nice full hot breakfast and coach was oversold so I got op'd up to Business Class which was very nice, especially after having only 2 hours sleep that night.

I also like being able to same day confirm on an earlier flight even on the cheapest T-fare. Even Southwest highest tiers have to buy up to a full fare if they want to fly on an earlier flight.

Southwest is great for a lot of people (especially those that l ive in a city like MDW or BNA where WN has a lot of flights) but for many frequent travellers a lecagy works out a lot better.

Living in Chicago, when I do have to pay for a domestic ticket, I love Southwest. Their fares are already low and they have the best reward program - effectively 10% off. You can also save another 10% by buying a gift card from costco or elsewhere. I already earn 1MM airlines miles a year through credit card bonuses etc so earning a few more on a different domestic flight is pointless.

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I think SW can have incredible value, especially if you are able to obtain a companion pass. Since I do almost all flying with my SO, I get 0.0334 cents per point redeeming them for wanna get away fares, which is all I ever redeem.

The flexibility and ease of booking that comes along with it is amazing as well. Considering a trip? Go ahead and book when it's cheap, maybe book a few options, then cancel later. It really works great for us. Plus SW is by far the best airline for flying domestic coach.

0.0334 cents per point is an abysmal redemption value. On the other hand, 3.34 cents per point .... :)

I understand that people here are not interested in using points for cheap economy travel.

I quite like Southwest and my company insists I use them sometimes. I have also used them for leisure. However, on a recent 40K economy award ticket booked on Delta, because of my PM status, I got upgraded to 1st on 3 of the legs - try that with Southwest if you can.

I think when a person achieves companion pass SWA really shines in domestic travel really to anywhere. I think the 1 situation where SWA fails is last minute flights. United I think is a much better option in this case, but if you have companion pass I guess it's a moot point.

Let's also not forget about the points laundering that you can do temporarily. 19200 RR 2.0 gets you anywhere in the country on a Standard Award (provided there is a availability).

In the situation of transferring Ultimate Rewards points for a single domestic ticket, this is pretty easy to figure out.

If the one-way ticket costs less than about $215, transfer the UR points into Southwest points. (Roughly 1.7 cents per point value)

If it's more than that, assuming there is availability, transfer to United and redeem the one-way award on UA or US. (More than 1.7 cents per point value)

No need to have an unreasonable fixation on any of the airlines involved if this is purely a price consideration. (Assuming you won't have checked bag or close-in booking fees, of course.)

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0.0334 cents per point is an abysmal redemption value. On the other hand, 3.34 cents per point .... :)

Bahh you got me. Of course I meant 3.334 cents per point. ;)

I think when a person achieves companion pass SWA really shines in domestic travel really to anywhere. I think the 1 situation where SWA fails is last minute flights. United I think is a much better option in this case, but if you have companion pass I guess it's a moot point.

Let's also not forget about the points laundering that you can do temporarily. 19200 RR 2.0 gets you anywhere in the country on a Standard Award (provided there is a availability).

What is this points laundering you speak of?

Transfer two step...read all about it.

http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Southwest_Rapid_Rewards#Transfer_two-step

I don't like them because:

1. They are not an IATA approved carrier.
2. If something goes wrong, you are on your own, no other airline will accept their ticket.
3. No First Class, lounges, upgrades.
4. No international routes.
5. No partner airlines.
6. No meal service.
7. No assigned seats.
8. Planes are ugly colors.

When ever I consider a flight, my mind has wiped WN as if they don't exist.

I love WN to ship packages on www.SWACARGO.com!

No international routes kills it for me.

I only use WN for a short hop. That's about it. Here is why I don't like them:

1. They advertise as if they are something special, but they aren't.
2. They claim to be a low cost carrier.
3. They claim to have a business class, but in reality they have some fickled, quasi-class, and it's the exact same seat at a very high price.
4. The boarding process stinks, in my opinion.
5. If you get stuck in "C" group, there is a 66.6666% chance (or higher) that you will have a miserable experience. I don't like gambling.
6. I don't like their "cutesy-pie" marketing and advertising gimmicks.
7. When they first started, they were extremely cost-effective. Get a load of some of their prices nowadays.
8. I don't like peanuts, or the smell of 100 people eating peanuts.
9. Too many posts about WN on flyertalk that are not in the WN forum.
10. I'll think of more and post back later...

But really, for a short hop - they're probably ok.

I signed up for the SW credit card just to get the signup bonus.

I didn't know how I'd use my miles until we flew LGA/BWI in April for under 7000 miles each roundtrip. Most R/T with legacy carriers would be 25,000 miles (in saver). AA offers 17,500 reward redemptions (sometimes) when using an AA credit card.

Three of us flew at 7000 per ticket for a total of 21000 SW points.
If we did this on AA at the low rate of 17,500, that would have been 52,500
If we did this at 25,000, 3 tickets would have cost 75,000.
Using BA Avios would have been 9000 times 3 = 27,000.

It's a good idea to diversify your miles.

Another data point, I was checking award redemption on SW for LGA/SFO. I could have scored a ticket for ~19,000 points R/T. Legacy would have been 25,000.
The best thing about SW, no change fees on paid or award tickets.

dh

Long time lurker, finally signed up and decided to post since this has been bothering me for a while now. Everyone here always seems to talk about using their miles for UA, Delta and AA flights but rarely ever do I see Southwest. From what I have seen so far, Southwest miles system seems to be superior? ...

- One reason is that the current RR is based on $ spent and this really sucks. For example, I take the current lowest airfare for RDU-SEA that is $209 each way on both WN and AA. Let's roundup for simplicity the round trip cost to $400 and mileage to 5,000 miles (depending on AA routing through DFW or ORD). This would be $0.08/mile fare and it is far from being a "mileage run". After such a trip RR member will be getting 6x400=2,400 RR points while the regular AAdvantage member will find 5,000 miles in his/her account. AA EXP will be getting 10,000 mile while likely flying F cabin both ways. The earning rate for two programs would become equal for $0.16 airfare for the basic AA member and $0.32/mile for AA PLT and EXP.
When redeeming for the same RDU-SEA trip today WN asks for 22,440 points while AA has good availability for 25,000 miles (mid September). For select dates when MileSAAver is unavailable, Dynamic Air awards (available to AA Elite) are priced for 34,000 miles + $10. So WN redemption is not much cheaper.
Finally, with AA credit card one gets 10% of AA miles back so the 25K award ticket is actually 22.5K - almost exactly as 22.4K RR points.

Since this is airline-specific, I'll move it to WN Forum.

3. They claim to have a business class

I don't think I've ever seen WN claim or advertise business class. Care to point out where they advertise business class (with the exception of AirTran)?

I don't think I've ever seen WN claim or advertise business class. Care to point out where they advertise business class (with the exception of AirTran)?

Maybe the poster was thinking of business select?

I think airtran calls their front cabin business class, but it isn't a true business class product like their competitors J cabin

In addition to Business Select, when BS was introduced what is now Anytime was called Business. I guess it's properly to be called a fare category rather than a class, but not everyone grasped that.

2 words: Wright Ammendment :mad:

2 words: Wright Ammendment :mad:

How does that affect RR.2 ?

How does that affect RR.2 ?

It doesn't but I understand where he's coming from being Dallas based. I use WN for short hauls and when I'm going to LAX only when I can connect in Austin or El Paso. Otherwise, you'll be flying around the country to get to your destination.

WN 2.0 can be useful for certain circumstances, especially with a CP. The flip side is that it will be a lot more difficult to earn a CP for those of use who fly WN in the WGA fare class. It is now one or the other as far as having 110k points or 100 one way flights.

I also think they could do a better job serving their elites, for instance introducing some type of standby for A+/- or at least A+. This would solve the problem of finishing up early and watching the next 3 planes leave half empty. I understand why they need to have the current policy for general travelers, but elites deserve better.

For me, SW almost always has stops or only one nonstop per day, which costs my clients more money, i.e. the money the client saved on the airfare was killed by my billable rate. At this point in my career, there is nothing I value more than my time and connecting flights don't improve my free time. As a result, using SW ends up with unhappy client and less free time.

Flying out of BNA as I do, the opposite is true. I am a consultant and I do not charge for travel time. I charge enough for actual in-plant work time to make up for it.

In addition to Business Select, when BS was introduced what is now Anytime was called Business. I guess it's properly to be called a fare category rather than a class, but not everyone grasped that.

But it is misleading to those that don't fly WN much. I am not sure why WN uses the word Business to describe the fare class. Aside from being a fully refundable fare (which can be very valuable), business select on WN gives no more benefits to those purchases than an elite would get on most legacies (all the legacies will assign you a sign which is better than boarding a1 to 15 on WN, I think all the legacies give their elites a free drink if they aren't upgraded and bonus miles, etc.).

And I also think it is misleading when a legacy sells a buy-up fare as a first class ticket. Providing the flight doesn't cancel and there isn't an equip swap, sure they are in first class. But if it's a buy up fare they are advertising as first class like an A or P fare and the flight cancels or there is an equipment swap there is no guarantee the ticket holder will be sitting in first on their flight.

2 words: Wright Ammendment :mad:

WN can get around that though but it would mean changing their business model and flying smaller aircraft. I know AA used to fly ORD to DAL on a small aircraft and pretty soon Delta is going to start providing Atlanta to Love Field service five times a day, they just have to do it on a regional instead of a mainline.

WN can get around that though but it would mean changing their business model and flying smaller aircraft. I know AA used to fly ORD to DAL on a small aircraft and pretty soon Delta is going to start providing Atlanta to Love Field service five times a day, they just have to do it on a regional instead of a mainline.

It will be fully repealed in 2014, so there's little point in changing their strategy now. It's just frustrating that I'm guaranteed at least one connection/touchdown every time I fly out of the WA zone. I have to fly to Austin, Houston and SA a lot so I rack up my points. But, to redeem them is a hassle. Want to go to New York City? 2 connections and all day to travel to LGA. Don't like that? 1 connection through Houston, route to EWR and pay $70.00 in cab fare to get to midtown. I'd rather just fly direct from DFW-LGA on AA. But, using Eagle to fly to inner-Texas cities instead of WN makes no sense at all. Especially when you constantly need to change/cancel your flight to accomodate a client.

How does that affect RR.2 ?

It affects me greatly. I used to be able to fly 8 inner-Texas roundtrips and redeem for an Award. Now I have to double that amount to receive anything of value...and still deal with the WA restrictions.

It will be fully repealed in 2014, so there's little point in changing their strategy now. It's just frustrating that I'm guaranteed at least one connection/touchdown every time I fly out of the WA zone. I have to fly to Austin, Houston and SA a lot so I rack up my points. But, to redeem them is a hassle. Want to go to New York City? 2 connections and all day to travel to LGA. Don't like that? 1 connection through Houston, route to EWR and pay $70.00 in cab fare to get to midtown. I'd rather just fly direct from DFW-LGA on AA. But, using Eagle to fly to inner-Texas cities instead of WN makes no sense at all. Especially when you constantly need to change/cancel your flight to accomodate a client.



It affects me greatly. I used to be able to fly 8 inner-Texas roundtrips and redeem for an Award. Now I have to double that amount to receive anything of value...and still deal with the WA restrictions.

If Eagle uses two class planes and you fly enough to get status, I have found getting upgraded on a RJ is usually a pretty easy upgrade. Only problem is for an hour flight you really don't get much up front other than 2 drinks if the FA does a predeparture service and possibly a snack. Big drawback is if you are carry on, it's a pain waiting on your rollerbag when they pink tag it where if you are on a full size plane you just grab your bag out of the bin and go. It does make sense for someone that does a lot of inner TX and CA flyign to use WN, especially if LUV field is more convenient.

Sounds like you change plans a lot with clients, so the no change fee would really benefit someone like you on WN. I rarely change my flight days but a lot of times I will finish up and want to fly home earlier or can get out of the office early so the free same day confirmed privledges on a lecagy are a real nice benefit to me.

I also think they could do a better job serving their elites, for instance introducing some type of standby for A+/- or at least A+. This would solve the problem of finishing up early and watching the next 3 planes leave half empty. I understand why they need to have the current policy for general travelers, but elites deserve better.

Same day confirm is a benefit I use a lot with legacies. With WN though you have the benefit of no change fees if you have the type of travel schedule where you could finish up a project on a different day (for me I always travel on the Same day so flying out the same day is a bigger benefit for me than no change fees). For someone that travels with a spouse, the CP is also a nice benefit the lecagies don't offer. But if a plane is going out half empty they shoudl allow someone with a-list to just fly if they are carrying on

Southwest let a 400 pound woman sit on me. All the publicity stunts in the world with Kevin Smith will not contradict my personal experience that they allow bigger people to push smaller people around. No cheap flight or miles deal is worth DVT or a stroke. Maybe they've changed, but I'm afraid to risk it.

I don't know why "no one" likes Southwest. But there's one data point for why I don't.

Considering they carry more passengers than any airline in the US and makes consistent profits, I suspect someone likes them.

It's not true that no one likes Southwest. I fly them all the time. I live near Oakland airport, where they have lots of nonstop flights to all my most common destinations.

I don't care about business or first class, and I rarely fly internationally nowadays.

I do care about baggage fees, because I usually fly with my wife and two-year-old, and together we need a lot of stuff.

The boarding process is actually quite easy. I've hardly ever had a bad seat, whereas I've often been stuck in middle seats on the legacies.

Considering they carry more passengers than any airline in the US and makes consistent profits, I suspect someone likes them.

Walmart has more shoppers than any other retailer in the world and makes consistent profits yet plenty of people hate them.....

Walmart has more shoppers than any other retailer in the world and makes consistent profits yet plenty of people hate them.....

I'd venture to guess that nowadays more people hate United than Southwest.

Southwest let a 400 pound woman sit on me. All the publicity stunts in the world with Kevin Smith will not contradict my personal experience that they allow bigger people to push smaller people around. No cheap flight or miles deal is worth DVT or a stroke. Maybe they've changed, but I'm afraid to risk it.

I don't know why "no one" likes Southwest. But there's one data point for why I don't.

Actually, and I have experienced exactly what you did so I can say this, WN did not let it happen, you did. You push the FA button and when the FA comes back there say as politely as possible, "This will not work. Either she leaves or I get a new seat, and it won't be a middle in the back." I swore then and there that it would never happen again.

Other airlines will "let" this happen as well.

2. If something goes wrong, you are on your own, no other airline will accept their ticket.
3. No First Class, lounges, upgrades.
4. No international routes.
5. No partner airlines.
6. No meal service.
7. No assigned seats.


These are most of the reasons cited by experienced FFers you'll commonly meet.

Also no Hawaii and no free same-day standby.

Southwest is consistently profitable and has never filed for bankruptcy. Many who fly the legacies cannot comprehend this as first class tickets on the legacies sell for $1,000 - $10,000+ round trip. The only problem--very few actually pay for these first class tickets. It is a broken model. Southwest's model is not broken as the financial results show.

Industry leaders Southwest and Jetblue have gone to a revenue based frequent flyer program...it's only a matter of time before the legacies follow.

I don't like them because:

1. They are not an IATA approved carrier.
2. If something goes wrong, you are on your own, no other airline will accept their ticket.
3. No First Class, lounges, upgrades.
4. No international routes.
5. No partner airlines.
6. No meal service.
7. No assigned seats.
8. Planes are ugly colors.

When ever I consider a flight, my mind has wiped WN as if they don't exist.

I love WN to ship packages on www.SWACARGO.com!

If you've read the OP's messages, he's clarified that he has no interest in First Class or international travel.

If you wanted to fly from Sacramento to Burbank, would WN be wiped from your mind as if they don't exist? If so, you'll be flying way out of your way. WN has a monopoly on the route. This is typical of the kind of route I fly a lot.

I don't like them because:

1. They are not an IATA approved carrier.
But still #1 in passenger traffic in the US.
2. If something goes wrong, you are on your own, no other airline will accept their ticket.
3. No First Class, lounges, upgrades.
True--but you have to pay for lounges even if flying domestic first on a legacy. I have an Amex card that will grant me access for $27 if not flying the carrier. Another that grants me access for free if I am.
4. No international routes.
Southwest merged with Airtran. Airtran offers international routes.
5. No partner airlines.
Not a big deal for domestic travel which is SWA's focus.
6. No meal service.
Hmmmm--airplane fool or real food purchased in the airport prior to flight for $10?
7. No assigned seats.
Early bird usually gets me a seat with more legroom than domestic first on the legacies.
8. Planes are ugly colors.
I do not see the colors from inside the plane. If the airline gets me safely to my destination I am not concerned about what they look like. Besides, the planes are relatively new.

When ever I consider a flight, my mind has wiped WN as if they don't exist.

I love WN to ship packages on www.SWACARGO.com!

"Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded." -- Yogi Berra

Beyond moving my not unsubstantial butt long distances (domestically) at great speed, while concurrently getting my luggage there at the the same time, almost everything else is added fluff.

Plus, with WN I know I'll never get an RJ, I will not have to change planes at ORD, DFW, CLT or any of a number of behemoth airports. Sure PHX and DEN are large, but I do not have to hike halfway across the city to change from my RJ feeder to my real plane.

I fly out BNA. Almost nothing except RJ's feeding big airports for connections with the other airlines.

No FC, no assigned seating, no lounge, no international, no food service. Not a problem for me.

FC would be nice, though.

These are most of the reasons cited by experienced FFers you'll commonly meet.

Also no Hawaii and no free same-day standby.

While the OP mentioned he didn't care about First Class or international, those are improtant things for many flyertalkers (and frequent flyers in general). I agree with everything in Mr. Pickles posts as to why some people might not like Southwest (with the exception of the airplane color. I don't know of anyone that cares about those and I think some of the Southwest themed planes are pretty cool).

Free same-day is a big benefit for me that Southwest doesn't offer (and that isn't a big deal for some WN flyers just like the CP is a huge benefit for some WN flyers and was something I never used when I earned it).

One thing you both forgot to mention was TSA precheck. That is something that every traveller I know loves. While it isn't a big deal for quarterly traveller, it is a huge timesaver for me.

Well I thought I would chime in. We have not really been able to travel much due to costs. This year I joined the points bandwagon. Got the two SW credit cards and was qualified for the companion pass. This year we have gone to Nashville for 10(tax), we are heading to Chicago (10) and San Francisco(whopping 15) we still have 60,000 points and if I play my cards right that could be potentially be 4 or 5 more trips. By the way the first time we flew Southwest(Nashville trip) we were delayed a few hours and they gave us 400 in credit. So bottom line we are traveling for practically nothing and getting to see cities we have never visited. Win win to me. Oh and I have hotel points so I am not paying for my stay. Thanks to all of you who have taught me well! Once we have toured the US I will probably be interested in foreign travel but until LUV Southwest!

I like them and even prefer RR 2.0 over 1.0 (the horror!). That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of same day standby/same day change scheme put into place and while I don't mind open seating, I acknowledge that open seating sucks on those occasions in which you are late to the gate.

"Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded." -- Yogi Berra

Beyond moving my not unsubstantial butt long distances (domestically) at great speed, while concurrently getting my luggage there at the the same time, almost everything else is added fluff.

Plus, with WN I know I'll never get an RJ, I will not have to change planes at ORD, DFW, CLT or any of a number of behemoth airports. Sure PHX and DEN are large, but I do not have to hike halfway across the city to change from my RJ feeder to my real plane.

I fly out BNA. Almost nothing except RJ's feeding big airports for connections with the other airlines.

No FC, no assigned seating, no lounge, no international, no food service. Not a problem for me.

FC would be nice, though.

If BNA is the airport you always use and WN provides service to almost all the cities you travel to, then WN is probably your best bet. I know American and DL have cut a lot of flights out of BNA and it's a big airport for Southwest.

I don't mind RJs if they are two cabins, they seem to have a great first to coach ratio which means a very good shot at an upgrade. The thing I hate about them is having my rollarbag planeside checked and waiting on it at the gate (but it also gives me time for another drink instead of boarding early to grab bin space).

For me lounges are very nice. If your flight is delayed or you take VDB to go on a later flight, it helps a lot. Also super if you have an irops situation and your flight is cancelled or severly delayed, the attendants are great about rebooking and a couple times I have been confirmed into first on the next flight

I like them for giving me drink coupons LOL.
Took them to Spokane to go to Idaho Micro Brew festival on Schweitzer Mountain last labor day and they did fine through Denver.

If BNA is the airport you always use and WN provides service to almost all the cities you travel to, then WN is probably your best bet. I know American and DL have cut a lot of flights out of BNA and it's a big airport for Southwest.

I don't mind RJs if they are two cabins, they seem to have a great first to coach ratio which means a very good shot at an upgrade. The thing I hate about them is having my rollarbag planeside checked and waiting on it at the gate (but it also gives me time for another drink instead of boarding early to grab bin space).

For me lounges are very nice. If your flight is delayed or you take VDB to go on a later flight, it helps a lot. Also super if you have an irops situation and your flight is cancelled or severly delayed, the attendants are great about rebooking and a couple times I have been confirmed into first on the next flight

RJ's are only nice if you are elite and can get preferred seating or an upgrade.

The keys for me are BNA and the places to which I travel. As a consultant, I am not flying back and forth to the main office or three to four primary destinations. The last time I did an inventory, I was using 15 different airports in 15 different smaller cities, all but one served by WN. If WN did not fly out of BNA, those domestic flights would be almost evenly divided among AA, UA, US, and DL not allowing the chance at elite status except with CC spend, and then its a maybe. It is really hard to get enough miles for anything with 400-1000 mile trips.

RJ's are only nice if you are elite and can get preferred seating or an upgrade.

The keys for me are BNA and the places to which I travel. As a consultant, I am not flying back and forth to the main office or three to four primary destinations. The last time I did an inventory, I was using 15 different airports in 15 different smaller cities, all but one served by WN. If WN did not fly out of BNA, those domestic flights would be almost evenly divided among AA, UA, US, and DL not allowing the chance at elite status except with CC spend, and then its a maybe. It is really hard to get enough miles for anything with 400-1000 mile trips.

If it's under an hour flight I usually don't mind RJ's but know a lot of people don't like them for even short flights (providing the planeside checked luggage comes out fast. Delta is pretty fast but I have been on American eagle flights and have waited until 10 minutes afte rthe plane has deborded before they start bringing up bags). They board pretty fast, no middle seat and if I am carrying on I don't need to worry about it fitting in the bin or waiting on bin space. Over an hour and I really don't care for them, even if I am sitting up front (I like the EJR's though).

With your flight needs, WN would be the best choice for you. When all my flying used to be to Chicago, BNA and NYC, WN was a great choice. LIke you said it's hard to get status on a short trip and when RR 1 was around, combined with Hilton credits and visa use I was getting a lot of free trips (and back when they were part of diners club that was another easy way to get free trips when they had the promo for 12K points for 1 RR ticket). I would use WN for MDW and BNA (they had as good of non-stop service as NW) and was able to justify the cost of a business class ticket on Spirit (when NK was a decent airline) when I had to go to LGA.

Seeing I am a hub captive with all my flights originating out of DTW and that I am now flying to cities like LAX (where WN doesn't have non-stop stop service from DTW) and LGA (where WN doesn't have non-stop service and spirit has become cheap and I won't fly them) and MIA (where wn doesn't fly) and I can easilly earn Platnium status on Delta, it makes sense for me to give them their business.

I am surprised American pulled their mini hub out of BNA. Seems like it would be a profitable market being the second largest city in the US for pop music and the largest for country. And I like Nashville's airport. I really like the city of Nashville itself and miss going there.

RJ's are only nice if you are elite and can get preferred seating or an upgrade.

The keys for me are BNA and the places to which I travel. As a consultant, I am not flying back and forth to the main office or three to four primary destinations. The last time I did an inventory, I was using 15 different airports in 15 different smaller cities, all but one served by WN. If WN did not fly out of BNA, those domestic flights would be almost evenly divided among AA, UA, US, and DL not allowing the chance at elite status except with CC spend, and then its a maybe. It is really hard to get enough miles for anything with 400-1000 mile trips.

Nashville is a great airport. I have never flown on Southwest from BNA but have used Delta many times and AA several times. I really enjoy their skyclub and there are plenty of reasonably priced food choices to dine at.

I'm not a big fan of SW, probably b/c other airlines make me feel too entitled. But SW has a place in the world if you take a pragmatic perspective:

1) Book flights you might have to cancel (preferably with points).
2) Get biz select for last minute flights (the 20% pts rebate is bribery!).
3) Qtly fare sales get you on short routes cheaply (SW monopolizes regional flights).

I also find myself talking to more people on SW flights. Fly some AA routes makes me feel like I'm in the office, with so many biz travelers.

I think that Gary Kelly has done a lot of dumb things, the same way that Gerald Arpey did a lot of dumb things when he took over from Don Carty at AA. But he's also done a few really good things, such as the current boarding process to remove gate lice.

Southwest is good for people like me, somebody who works for a business that is not large enough to get volume discount rates from the legacy carriers. I fly a roughly even mix of BS (reimbursed from work for AT, pay the rest myself for the benefits) and WGA for work, and a mix of reimbursing RR1 awards and RR2 points for leisure. Most of my work routes have devolved on the legacies to be CR7 routes, so even the new Evo seating (which I dislike) is better. 100% of my work trips and 90% of my leisure trips are non-stops - otherwise I look at DL/AS.

What I find, however, is that I pay for no domestic leisure trips anymore - they're all rewards - compared to when I'd routinely have to pay for 7-8 domestic trips a year to both have a shot of upgrade as well as for requalifying for mid-tier on either AA or UA. I've saved enough that if I needed to do so, I could afford a Z fare to Europe on AF or AA (although I still have over 250k each on UA and AA, which will cover the next four years).

Finally, I've gone over 18 years without sitting in a middle seat in a 3+ seat row, and I'm not about to start now. The WN model means that as long as I'm buying a ticket 36 hours in advance, I'm going to have an aisle seat as A+, and if I'm buying a ticket inside 36 hours I'm probably buying BS anyway and will still have an aisle seat. On UA, I'd have to be a mid-tier elite to get that, and to be a mid-tier elite I'd have to endure a substantial amount of CR2/CR7/ERJ-145 flights.

Why am I disenchanted with Southwest?

Their website.

It is far to buggy to be playing in the big leagues.

I disagree, their website is far superior to Delta or US Air for example.

WN's website is simple enough not to have so many server and error issues. There's no seat selection chart, alliance interline, bag track viewing, code share, flex search of surrounding dates...etc. It's not competitive with Frontier or JetBlue and lags its own sibling, AirTran.

I disagree, their website is far superior to Delta or US Air for example.

Compared to Delta and Hilton's website Southwest's website is great. Not sure which of the two has the worst website as far as problems.

One thing I don't like about WN's site is it won't tell you the time a flight actually landed and departed. They also don't interface with EF

I disagree, their website is far superior to Delta or US Air for example.

For me, getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick is superior to being tarred and feathered.

It's not competitive with Frontier or JetBlue and lags its own sibling, AirTran.

I'm sure the WN IT staff will pick up a thing or two from the AirTran IT crew along the way. Hopefully sooner versus later!

Compared to Delta and Hilton's website Southwest's website is great. Not sure which of the two has the worst website as far as problems.

One thing I don't like about WN's site is it won't tell you the time a flight actually landed and departed. They also don't interface with EF

You are joking, right?

I am HH Diamond and have been for 14+ years.

I have never had any problems with Hilton's website.

Wish I could say that for Soutwest's.

EVERY TIME I GO TO BOOK A SERIES OF SOUTHWEST FLIGHTS I HAVE PROBLEMS.

EVERY TIME.

You are joking, right?

I am HH Diamond and have been for 14+ years.

I have never had any problems with Hilton's website.

Wish I could say that for Soutwest's.

EVERY TIME I GO TO BOOK A SERIES OF SOUTHWEST FLIGHTS I HAVE PROBLEMS.

EVERY TIME.

There is a whole thread devoted to website problems on the Hilton sight. I have had problems a few times with it saying the website was unavailable when I wanted to book reservations. I can't do AXON reservations on the site. A lot of times I have to call the diamond desk to do a diamond force because a lot of times they wont show up on the site.

The thing I really hate it is it won't remember you AAA number even though you tell it to remember it for future stays and you have to log in multiple times on the same session.

Delta's site won't let you SDC or upgrade with miles (Northwest site let you do both) and their award calendar is still broken. It's been a while since I have booked an RR ticket on Southwests site, but normally I had no problems booking it on their site and making changes later if I had to.

You are joking, right?

I am HH Diamond and have been for 14+ years.

I have never had any problems with Hilton's website.

Wish I could say that for Soutwest's.

EVERY TIME I GO TO BOOK A SERIES OF SOUTHWEST FLIGHTS I HAVE PROBLEMS.

EVERY TIME.

And yet, you continue to book on Southwest's website? LMAO

Compared to Delta and Hilton's website Southwest's website is great. Not sure which of the two has the worst website as far as problems.

One thing I don't like about WN's site is it won't tell you the time a flight actually landed and departed. They also don't interface with EF

The actual time functionality has been added, not sure when. You have to click on "View Status" or "Details" for it to come up.

Of course, the big issue with their website is the fact that at least the other guys can still be accessed via a proxy like Expedia and the like when the company's site is bombing.

I'm sure the WN IT staff will pick up a thing or two from the AirTran IT crew along the way. Hopefully sooner versus later!

Yeah, right. As if WN has been open to anything FL brings to the organization. :rolleyes:

Southwest caters to the lowest common denominator. It is in the same category as bad toilet paper, bad wine, Low-bandwidth Internet, Motel Sixes, ghetto housing, shanty towns, Yugos, Taco Bell beef, and all that is cheap, mediocre, and accepted by those who aspire to nothing more. There was a golden era of air travel, when dignity prevailed in Coach. By setting the bar lower, and lower, and embracing the "cheap bus" mentality, Southwest has made the world worse. Although Legacy carriers have been forced to cheapen, degrade, and emasculate their own products, to cater to the masses, they have not destroyed the last shrivels of dignity. Southwest will fail.

Southwest caters to the lowest common denominator. It is in the same category as bad toilet paper, bad wine, Low-bandwidth Internet, Motel Sixes, ghetto housing, shanty towns, Yugos, Taco Bell beef, and all that is cheap, mediocre, and accepted by those who aspire to nothing more. There was a golden era of air travel, when dignity prevailed in Coach. By setting the bar lower, and lower, and embracing the "cheap bus" mentality, Southwest has made the world worse. Although Legacy carriers have been forced to cheapen, degrade, and emasculate their own products, to cater to the masses, they have not destroyed the last shrivels of dignity. Southwest will fail.

towsonattorney, welcome to FlyerTalk!, I think?

[They make me say that.]

Southwest caters to the lowest common denominator. It is in the same category as bad toilet paper, bad wine, Low-bandwidth Internet, Motel Sixes, ghetto housing, shanty towns, Yugos, Taco Bell beef, and all that is cheap, mediocre, and accepted by those who aspire to nothing more. There was a golden era of air travel, when dignity prevailed in Coach. By setting the bar lower, and lower, and embracing the "cheap bus" mentality, Southwest has made the world worse. Although Legacy carriers have been forced to cheapen, degrade, and emasculate their own products, to cater to the masses, they have not destroyed the last shrivels of dignity. Southwest will fail.

Probably the least-informed first post I have ever seen on FT. That is saying quite a lot.

Good job, Supertroll!

Dignity certainly did not prevail in Coach when US Airways dominated the airport closest the poster's supposed location, which would be BWI. Talk about a stinking mess. There's a reason why Southwest was able to spend the better part of a decade growing just by chasing US/HP out of dominant positions at various airports. LAX, BWI, LAS, and to a lesser extent PHX and MCI come to mind.

But it's nice to see that we still are worthy enough to have new trolls join us.

Probably the least-informed first post I have ever seen on FT. That is saying quite a lot.

Good job, Supertroll!

Hey, I took care of the welcome for you! You owe me one.

Legacy carriers have been forced to cheapen, degrade, and emasculate their own products

It sounds as if someone gave you a bum steer about the "cattle call". Oh, and you forgot to mention "Kettles". Take away 2 points for that.

:D

Seriously, check out an SJC-LAX flight during commute hours some day. You might be surprised.

Also, it makes zero sense to blame Southwest for the inevitable results of deregulation and market forces. Especially now that Southwest is in danger of being overtaken by hungrier competitors.

Their fares are already low and they have the best reward program - effectively 10% off.

I typically get 25%-75% back in frequent flyer miles from AA - so I would never say Southwest has the best rewards program. The easiest to understand, yes.

To illustrate, here is my math on some typical tickets (90% of my travel is leisure):
(I have lifetime AA Platinum status so will earn a 100% status bonus on all AA flights I fly)

trip 1: Boston-LosAngles return (non stop) Paid $310 10,444 miles earned
trip 2: Boston-Tampa return (connect in Miami) Paid $190 7,032 miles earned
trip 3: Boston-Indianapolis return (connect in Chicago) Paid $220 5,468 miles earned
trip 4: Boston-Phoenix return (connect in Dallas) paid $280 9,720 miles earned

Total spent on AA tickets: $1000
Total AA miles earned: 32,664

I value my AA miles at 1.5 cents-2 cents each so I get $489.96-$653.28 back in free travel from the $1000 I spent on AA tickets in my above example.

The math will not work the same for everyone but this is why people in my category tend to not prefer Southwest.

I agree with most posts about this. For those flying international and especially business class, clearly that is a better use of the miles. For those mostly flying domestic, especially with a family of any group of three of more, SWA is huge value. Every flight I take with Delta to the markets I fly to is 35-50k points/ticket on 50 seat CRJ's. Every flight with Southwest is 10k-15k points, always on 737s. It totally crushes Delta. And that's not to mention that any change is $450 on Delta for three people. So it not really just the fare, it is paying the fare again many times if making a change. Plus the planes that Southwest flies are so much better (totally depends what cities you are flying from - RDU for me). So if you're right has good planes with others, and you're one of two people and could get upgraded, even domestic works better for those. It is really with 3 or more people with frequent changes to plans that makes a big difference.

Almost 3 years ago I landed a consulting gig in Houston (live in SF/East Bay). At the time CO had just joined the StarAlliance and had many non-stops SFO/IAH. WN had some service OAK/HOU, and I gave it a try. After experiencing the 'your luggage will be on one of the two carousels but we don't know which' at Hobby, I decided that, with all the flying I was probably going to do, I wanted more than a free trip on WN.

Unfortunately, WN has succumbed to big-airline-itis -- frequently I can find a cheaper fare on another carrier. And, the e-mails are no better than any of the other dinosaurs. I got this recently from WN regarding a trip coming up in about 4 weeks. (reformatted due to incompatible e-mail, bold/italics mine)

Date
Nov 25

Flight
Oregon

Departure/Arrival

Depart Oakland (OAK) at 1056
Arrive in Portland (PDX) at 09:05 AM

Depart () at
Arrive in () at


What this actually means is flight 1056 departing OAK 9:05AM arriving PDX 10:50AM. UA couldn't have screwed it up any better.

Hah, got one of those myself:

Date Flight Departure/Arrival

Oct 28 3067 Depart Burbank (BUR) at 06:00 PM
Arrive in Sacramento (SMF) at 07:15 PM


Oregon Depart Sacramento (SMF) at 1780
Arrive in Portland (PDX) at 08:20 PM


Oregon Depart OAK (2012-10-31 00:00:00) at Oakland
Arrive in Portland (PDX) at 903


Oakland Depart OAK (T) at Burbank
Arrive in BUR () at 1044


Depart (T) at
Arrive in () at

No followup or correction either. You've got to wonder if they even know they sent out garbled emails. I usually don't read the "upcoming trip" mails but I noticed this one and had to sign in to make sure everything was OK.

Maybe they have it in for PDX.:D

Or, maybe they'd blame Sandy -- it's a tried and true corporate management tactic to blame the weather for their failings, regardless of relevance.

I did try to use 'Contact Us' to give them some feedback on the e-mail, but it's canned and only deals with travel issues, so I gave up.

One more for the PDX theory

Date
Nov 1

Flight
1096

Departure/Arrival
Depart Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP) at 06:45 PM
Arrive in Denver (DEN) at 07:45 PM

Flight
Oregon

Departure/Arrival
Depart Denver (DEN) at 488
Arrive in Portland (PDX) at 09:15 PM

Departure/Arrival
Depart () at
Arrive in () at