Emirates Skywards - Qantas and Emirates alliance moves closer

It has been mentioned on here before but a Qantas/Emirates alliance seems to be moving ever closer according to UK and Australian financial press. e.g. Australian Financial Review:

"Qantas Airways is prepared to sever a 17-year partnership with British Airways as part of its effort to form an .alliance with the world’s biggest .international airline, Emirates.

A tie-up with Emirates will hurt Qantas’s relationship with .partners in oneworld, the powerful travel alliance of 11 .airlines it co-founded with British Airways in 1998.

The Australian flag carrier .confirmed yesterday it was in .discussions with Emirates, among “a number of airlines”, over an .alliance.

Sources close to the situation said management at Qantas has accepted that the long-standing BA relationship would be the price of any deal with the Middle Eastern carrier.

As reported exclusively in The Australian Financial Review yesterday, under the deal being discussed Qantas could shift some of its flights on the Kangaroo route to London from transiting via Singapore to the “Falcon route” via Dubai.

The news sent Qantas shares up 9.6 per cent to $1.085, the biggest gain on the ASX 100 Index.

The move by Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce is part of a strategy to shift the premium airline towards an international model based on alliances – a tactic first enunciated in this country by Virgin Australia’s John Borghetti.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard was caught on the hop when asked about the deal yesterday morning, saying Qantas would always remain majority Australian owned because of the limitations of the Qantas Sale Act.

By the end of the day, Canberra sources said the government would not intervene in a commercial .alliance that did not involve Emirates taking equity in Qantas – something that is not under .discussion.

The only relevant approval would have to come from the competition regulator. While the code-share deal with Emirates has not been finalised, both carriers are confident it will be completed in coming months.

A deal with Emirates is expected to jeopardise Qantas’s existing code-share agreement with British Airways, which along with American Airlines and Cathay Pacific were the other founders of oneworld in 1998.

The Australian flag carrier is increasingly less reliant on traditional links with airlines such as British Airways and Cathay Pacific, and more focused on potential tie-ups with the likes of Emirates, China Eastern and soon, it is expected, Chile’s Latam."

Slightly off topic, but what does the agreement between Australia and Germany look like. Would it allow QF to operate Australia-DXB-BER/STR just as the operate SYD-SIN-FRA today?

Otherwise, I'm all for this, my family still has many QF FF points and it looks like a win-win for both airlines, not forgetting Tim Clark's comments on Pacific services a while ago.

More can be found here, at these existing threads...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/qantas-frequent-flyer/1370582-qantas-forges-emirates-tie.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1370891-future-ba-flights-oz-possible-qantas-emirates-tie-up.html

Slightly off topic, but what does the agreement between Australia and Germany look like. Would it allow QF to operate Australia-DXB-BER/STR just as the operate SYD-SIN-FRA today?

I think that's missing the point.

If an Emirates/Qantas alliance were to proceed, it would almost invariably mean that Qantas would drop both of their European routes, with Qantas passengers for Europe being carried on Emirates services onwards from DXB.

Yes, I know that EK are not allowed to serve BER or STR, so this would still involve a short final hop on a local carrier. But think instead of the number of destinations in Europe that become reachable as one-stops from Australia.

But, I suppose, if EK really wanted access to BER, then perhaps switching the QF route to BER would be one possible way of doing this. I think it is unlikely, though...

The two outcomes I'm hoping for are:

- Earning Skywards when flying Qantas (or Jetstar - unlikely).
- Redeeming my Skywards points to upgrade a Sydney > Santiago or Sydney > Los Angeles flight.

I still don't see this resolving the BER situation. They will just transfer QF passengers onto an EK flight in DXB. EK will still have to obtain landing rights in BER and STR

I'm not sure I get the advantage of such a tie up. One stops from Australia to Europe are possible on EK anyway, so what's the advantage to EK? Is there a limitation on how many services they can operate to Australia? They don't seem to be near capacity anyway.

Is it that QF operated flights on SYD/MEL-LAX will have EK flight numbers?

The two outcomes I'm hoping for are:

- Earning Skywards when flying Qantas (or Jetstar - unlikely).
- Redeeming my Skywards points to upgrade a Sydney > Santiago or Sydney > Los Angeles flight.

If you could earn EK tier miles on QF, then that would alter my flying patterns considerably. That starts to become compelling...for me at least.

From http://www.flightglobal.com/page/interviews/tim-clark/the-interview/

Clark says flying transpacific services between points in the Americas, Asia-Pacific and Australasia is “the only piece of the jigsaw that’s missing. We’re just getting into the start positions – we have the West Coast of the USA, we have Chinese points, we have Asian points, we have Australasian points. So the Pacific is encircled and the next stage is to link the dots – we have the rights.”

Clark says if he could have his way this phase of the Emirates strategy would be initiated “sooner rather than later”, but he recognises the timing is not quite right yet. “We need to consolidate our market presence in places like the USA. We need to be as understood in the USA as we are, for example, in Europe.”

------

That was last fall. Since then their USA destinations have nearly doubled (after including the IAD route starting this September).

This could be big, folks.

I'm not sure I get the advantage of such a tie up. One stops from Australia to Europe are possible on EK anyway, so what's the advantage to EK? Is there a limitation on how many services they can operate to Australia? They don't seem to be near capacity anyway.


Indeed - there are lots of people flying one-stop from Australia on pure EK itineraries already. But EK is not the largest carrier out of Australia. And there are still lots of people flying from Australia on QF itineraries.

But put the two together, and QF/EK should be the largest carrier from Australia, and EK will have quite a considerable immediate uplift in the number of passengers connecting in DXB, and all those passengers that would instead perhaps end up on BA services to get to locations all around Europe will instead travel on EK metal.

Why wouldn't EK like that?

http://centreforaviation.com/images/stories/2012/jul/19/australia_international_capacity.png

Image from CAPA (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/europe-australia-market-changed-forever-as-sixth-freedom-carriers-gain-scale-and-drop-prices-78646), representing Australia international capacity by carrier (seats): 16-Jul-2012 to 22-Jul-2012

Indeed - there are lots of people flying one-stop from Australia on pure EK itineraries already. But EK is not the largest carrier out of Australia. And there are still lots of people flying from Australia on QF itineraries.

But put the two together, and QF/EK should be the largest carrier from Australia, and EK will have quite a considerable immediate uplift in the number of passengers connecting in DXB, and all those passengers that would instead perhaps end up on BA services to get to locations all around Europe will instead travel on EK metal.

Why wouldn't EK like that?

http://centreforaviation.com/images/stories/2012/jul/19/australia_international_capacity.png

Image from CAPA (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/europe-australia-market-changed-forever-as-sixth-freedom-carriers-gain-scale-and-drop-prices-78646), representing Australia international capacity by carrier (seats): 16-Jul-2012 to 22-Jul-2012

You have a point, but then EK could also just grow, add frequencies and destinations in the Australian market, and capture that market share on its own. That seems to be their strategy elsewhere, organic growth instead of partnerships, so why change now?

The article in the Sunday Times (which I can't reproduce here because I don't subscribe!) said that one of the main reasons behind the move from the Qantas perspective was to shift a lot of their flights from landing at Singapore en-route to Europe to Dubai. This was as part of a huge cost cutting operation Qantas is undertaking.

Emirates are also meant to be flying into and out of Adelaide from November 1st.

Wouldn't it be much easier for QF to use KUL instead of SIN if they were after lower fees?
I guess another advantage for EK would be that with the extra capacity from Australia, they could open and sustain a lot more routes to Europe. There is a lot of traffic to/from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe where a regular flight does yet have enough traffic...

Wouldn't it be much easier for QF to use KUL instead of SIN if they were after lower fees?
I guess another advantage for EK would be that with the extra capacity from Australia, they could open and sustain a lot more routes to Europe. There is a lot of traffic to/from Scandinavia and Eastern Europe where a regular flight does yet have enough traffic...

I thought SIN had some of the lowest landing fees around. It's a nicer airport than KUL and DXB in any case.

Also if they wanted to use DXB as a stop over point instead, would they need a tie up with EK? I thought the UAE has an open air policy where any airline could do this.

Also if they wanted to use DXB as a stop over point instead, would they need a tie up with EK? I thought the UAE has an open air policy where any airline could do this.

Precisely.

But the EK tie up will not just be about QF changing their stopover location. If it goes ahead, Qantas will not be flying past whichever stopover point they choose - EK would be the carrier onwards into Europe.

Precisely.

But the EK tie up will not just be about QF changing their stopover location. If it goes ahead, Qantas will not be flying past whichever stopover point they choose - EK would be the carrier onwards into Europe.

I read it as: DXB and some of QF's other current Euro destinations... interesting(?).

Cheers ツ

I thought SIN had some of the lowest landing fees around. It's a nicer airport than KUL and DXB in any case.

Also if they wanted to use DXB as a stop over point instead, would they need a tie up with EK? I thought the UAE has an open air policy where any airline could do this.

Agreed. Sorry to repeat my question from the other forum, but maybe is this a realization from Qantas that they can't compete with EK (or SQ/Star Alliance) to Europe in the long-term, and figure that they might as well link up with them to at least get in on the action for part of the journey? How competitive is Qantas now on their Europe routes?

I also wonder what's in it for EK. Maybe they don't forecast enough aircraft coming on-line in the medium-term to match the destinations and frequencies in OZ (and Oceania) that QF can serve?

Agreed. Sorry to repeat my question from the other forum, but maybe is this a realization from Qantas that they can't compete with EK (or SQ/Star Alliance) to Europe in the long-term, and figure that they might as well link up with them to at least get in on the action for part of the journey? How competitive is Qantas now on their Europe routes?

I also wonder what's in it for EK. Maybe they don't forecast enough aircraft coming on-line in the medium-term to match the destinations and frequencies in OZ (and Oceania) that QF can serve?

In an ideal situation, it will be the case that the closest to Europe any QF aircraft will fly will be to DXB, where QF will funnel its passengers to, who in turn will then board an EK flight north west bound (or indeed, to Africa, South America or North America).

I wonder if QF will be allowed to shuffle its current FRA slots to EK, who can then use it for BER instead?

I wonder if QF will be allowed to shuffle its current FRA slots to EK, who can then use it for BER instead?

Absolutely not. Regardless of any future cooperation, EK is a totally different entity, and subject to totally different airport access rules in Germany than is the case for Qantas. QF can't just give their slots/access rights in Germany to a different airline from a different country.

If EK really wanted access to Berlin, they could do something similar to what Etihad did with AB - get QF to swap their FRA flights over to TXL/BER (Air Berlin stopped flying to Dubai, and instead now flies to AUH where they feed into, and from, the EY network, benefitting both EY and AB). (But again, this would be subject to QF's access rights as decided by the German government).

Qantas can just focus on Berlin, and Stutgart in Germany funneling the pax through via DXB to Australia.

Agreed. Sorry to repeat my question from the other forum, but maybe is this a realization from Qantas that they can't compete with EK (or SQ/Star Alliance) to Europe in the long-term, and figure that they might as well link up with them to at least get in on the action for part of the journey? How competitive is Qantas now on their Europe routes

This is certainly how I'm reading it. Qantas currently only fly from Melbourne to London, and from Sydney to London and Frankfurt, both via Singapore (obviously pax from other cities can connect in SIN).

I'm not really sure how an alliance would help them at all, though. Funnelling through DXB would only help Emirates, even on the Australia -> stopping point side of the route. And Berlin is not as valuable as Frankfurt.

Yes, I know that EK are not allowed to serve BER or STR, so this would still involve a short final hop on a local carrier.

Not true. EK can serve any four German cities of its choosing. But if it wants to serve either BER or STR then it would have to drop one of its existing cities and that's something EK is not prepared to do.


http://www.businesstraveller.com/middle-east/news/emirates-starting-a380-munich-flights-and-expan

The SHeikh has spoken, looks like its coming closer to reality...

AusBt (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-tie-up-within-six-months-says-emirates?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper)

The SHeikh has spoken, looks like its coming closer to reality...

AusBt (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-tie-up-within-six-months-says-emirates?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper)

From the above source (02/08):

"Speculation over the Qantas-Emirates relationship late last month saw Qantas confirm it was in discussion with Emirates about a "potential alliance".

The two airlines abandoned plans for a code-sharing agreement almost ten years ago, but much has changed in the market landscape since then."

... as predicted.

Dear me, so glad for Skywards.

Cheers ツ

Completely off-thread Ivanhoe3079, I'm from Williamstown3016 originally (live in Scotland now) - back to Melbourne for 3 months late Nov. FWIW I wouldn't fly Qantas by choice but to be fair have always flown Emirates, Singapore or Malaysian in last decade.

Hold on, there has been no QF flight from OZ to DXB by now??

Hold on, there has been no QF flight from OZ to DXB by now??

:) Yep, just making the point I wouldn't knowingly fly with my national carrier if I had a choice. :D

Qantas really must be on Sheikhy ground...

Not true. EK can serve any four German cities of its choosing. But if it wants to serve either BER or STR then it would have to drop one of its existing cities and that's something EK is not prepared to do.


Precisely. EK doesn't want to drop any of HAM, DUS, MUC or FRA so it's not allowed to fly to BER and STR.

And I think it's highly unlikely that EK would "encourage" QF to fly onwards to BER or STR from DXB.

Qantas really must be on Sheikhy ground...

:D Yep, Sheikh, Rattle and Roll etc, etc

The announcement is expected on Thursday, the 6th September in Sydney.
Clark will be there and the Auckland leg of EK 412/413 has been cancelled on this day (Dep DXB 5/9), presumably to allow Joyce and Clark to get a nice picture of them with the big bird(s).

Sources: AusBt and The Ek Source

I'm not sure I get the advantage of such a tie up. One stops from Australia to Europe are possible on EK anyway, so what's the advantage to EK? Is there a limitation on how many services they can operate to Australia? They don't seem to be near capacity anyway.

Is it that QF operated flights on SYD/MEL-LAX will have EK flight numbers?

I think this is a great deal for EK and a bad one for QF, in the longer run.

If EK can capture all of QF's European business for the leg DXB-Europe, then this will further push utilization up. Also, it will strengthen EK's position for DXB-Australia, since many QF-passengers will realize EK is the better airline than QF.

QF only gains in the short run, with maybe some cost savings compared to their current Asian hub operations. They also ensure that their new European hub will NEVER be congested (EK&airports is a strategic industry for Dubai). In the longer run, they are in danger of being marginalized by EK on Europe-bound traffic. And - even worse - if EK should ever start Australia-USA services, many Australians might have developed a preference for EK at that time as well.

Chapeau, Mr. Clark!

Do you think you would be able to earn Skywards on Qantas flights?

Do you think you would be able to earn Skywards on Qantas flights?

I would imagine so but maybe not tier miles

Mulling over something...
Could this also have to do with EK's expansion? Meaning if QF provides part of the feeder traffic into DXB then EK could free up some of its birds and announce yet more destinations...?

Mulling over something...
Could this also have to do with EK's expansion? Meaning if QF provides part of the feeder traffic into DXB then EK could free up some of its birds and announce yet more destinations...?

Doubt it, QF does not have the capacity to send current SIN flights to DXB and replace EK flights to Down Under.
EK will most likely have to increase capacity on some routes (FRA, LHR?, LGW?, SIN(Is the A380 a coincidence???)) to cope with extra flights from QF coming in and the removal of 3 Daily flights between SIN and DXB.

Doubt it, QF does not have the capacity to send current SIN flights to DXB and replace EK flights to Down Under.
EK will most likely have to increase capacity on some routes (FRA, LHR?, LGW?, SIN(Is the A380 a coincidence???)) to cope with extra flights from QF coming in and the removal of 3 Daily flights between SIN and DXB.

What do you mean removal of 3 daily flights between SIN and DXB?

Officially announced:

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/sep-2012/5440/global/en

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/announcements.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=qan&timeframe=Y&year=2012

And a new website to show:

http://www.qantasandemirates.com/

Please, tell me that this does NOT mean that the EK flights to/from of Australia will soon be QF flights.

Please, tell me that this does NOT mean that the EK flights to/from of Australia will soon be QF flights.

As far as I understand it, no. For example, EK404/405 will also carry QF flight numbers. Same goes for the flights to BNE (will carry both).

Reverse is true for QF metal operating to SIN - they will carry EK flight numbers as well.

Is there any word on what EK gets out of this? They don't seem the type to sit on the fence while another airline gets what they want!

I'm not too happy with the 'deal' if you want to call it that! :mad: Qantas (Alan Joyce) has not only ruined Qantas's reputation in Australia but on a international scale! I sure hope Emirates have considered this prior to signing with Qantas.

More info on the signing here:

Qantas to fly via Dubai under Emirates partnership deal (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/qantas-to-fly-via-dubai-under-emirates-partnership-deal/story-e6frfq80-1226465555243)

Qantas signs historic tie-up with Emirates (http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/09/qantas-signs-historic-tie-up-with-emirates/)

As far as I understand it, no. For example, EK404/405 will also carry QF flight numbers. Same goes for the flights to BNE (will carry both).

Reverse is true for QF metal operating to SIN - they will carry EK flight numbers as well.

Thanks eightblack. Let's hope it stays that way.

As far as I understand it, no. For example, EK404/405 will also carry QF flight numbers. Same goes for the flights to BNE (will carry both).

Reverse is true for QF metal operating to SIN - they will carry EK flight numbers as well.

eightblack you don't happen to know if flights such as BKK-DXB etc... will have QF call-signs attached?

eightblack you don't happen to know if flights such as BKK-DXB etc... will have QF call-signs attached?

Not sure. And the EK SIN team are no wiser yet either. I'm compiling a list of questions to send off and this will be one of them.

Is there any word on what EK gets out of this? They don't seem the type to sit on the fence while another airline gets what they want!

I'm not too happy with the 'deal' if you want to call it that! :mad: Qantas (Alan Joyce) has not only ruined Qantas's reputation in Australia but on a international scale! I sure hope Emirates have considered this prior to signing with Qantas.


Joyce isn't a one man wrecking ball like some believe. The Qantas A380 product (and refurbished 747s) is amongst the best airline product in the world imo. I have experienced better overall service and food with QF than with EK.

EK are getting a fair bit out of this. They become the providers of flights from BNE, ADL and PER on one-stop Australia-Europe services on QF. They also gain access to QF's domestic network and presumably codeshare on Australia-Asia services from PER and BNE on QF, to then link up with EK services from Asia (HKG and SIN) to DXB and beyond. I can only presume the all important trans-pacific services from SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX/DFW/SCL become codeshare for EK at some point in the future too.

Of course, I also believe that somewhere in the desert on the outskirts of Dubai, a statue of the Crown Prince has just been erected with a prominent extended middle finger pointed in the direction of Abu Dhabi. Next to it is a giant neon sign containing the EK and QF logos, which reads: "Hey Al-Nahyan, who the hell are Virgin Australia??"

As an Emirates frequent flyer and gold status holder - I cannot see a positive side to this at all for existing Emirates customers. In fact I can only see downsides.

I feel that the Emirates brand and product is in a different class to Qantas and will be dragged down. For example, the Emirates lounge at Melbourne is very pleasant, with excellent staff. It's quite small and has good food and high quality items such as Moet/Veuve champagne etc. How long will this last when opened to Qantas travellers?

EK are getting a fair bit out of this. They become the providers of flights from BNE, ADL and PER on one-stop Australia-Europe services on QF. They also gain access to QF's domestic network and presumably codeshare on Australia-Asia services from PER and BNE on QF, to then link up with EK services from Asia (HKG and SIN) to DXB and beyond. I can only presume the all important trans-pacific services from SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX/DFW/SCL become codeshare for EK at some point in the future too.Yeah, I don't quite see how Emirates benefits from a lot of that. Pretty tenuous at best. Emirates has an extensive network already from Dubai to Asian destinations and the US cities you mentioned. I'd be surprised if there were any significant numbers of people for these codeshare flights (which they are even stating will be untouched). The domestic connections too - how many Emirates customers will really be utilising that? You can already fly to Dubai from most of the major cities.

As an Emirates frequent flyer and gold status holder - I cannot see a positive side to this at all for existing Emirates customers. In fact I can only see downsides.

I feel that the Emirates brand and product is in a different class to Qantas and will be dragged down. For example, the Emirates lounge at Melbourne is very pleasant, with excellent staff. It's quite small and has good food and high quality items such as Moet/Veuve champagne etc. How long will this last when opened to Qantas travellers?

I have similar concerns, but there will be multiple options in MEL. For example, you and I as EK Golds, could use either the EK lounge or the QF Business lounge on the lower floor. We couldn't use the QF F lounge though.

QF Gold's could use either the EK lounge, or the QF Business Lounge. And QF Plats/Plat Ones, could use the EK lounge or the QF F lounge. Maybe, they'll be forced to channel each respective tier level to the most appropriate lounge if things start to get out of hand...

I like the EK MEL lounge the most and it's a calm place to spend an hour or so before the flight. You can be sure loads on the EK lounges across the network will increase though...and I bet they will hold off re-instating the Gold guest policy (although I wonder if QF Golds/Plats etc will be allowed to bring a guest into EK lounges, as per their current terms and conditions)

The other thing to come out of this today was that Emirates will create a new top tier of Skywards, above Gold, which will match to Qantas Platinum.

The other thing to come out of this today was that Emirates will create a new top tier of Skywards, above Gold, which will match to Qantas Platinum.

Where was that mentioned? I mean the reality is the majority of Emirates customers and business is not in Australia and will never have anything to do with Qantas - why would they change their programme to match Qantas when it would impact every Emirates frequent flyer?

The other thing to come out of this today was that Emirates will create a new top tier of Skywards, above Gold, which will match to Qantas Platinum.

Actually, this is not that new. EK has been planning a 4th tier for ages and apparently, it is all ready to roll. Be interesting to see when this will be actually announced as I have given up waiting ;)

I think people here are underestimating three major things at play here.

1) The value to EK of being able to sell domestic flights in Australia. They went to the length of selling Virgin Blue (effectively an LCC) flights in the past.
2) The value to EK of adding one additional A380s to each of SYD and MEL (via codeshare) at no cost or expense of other route growth to them, along with gaining favourable opinion as a result of the tie-up in Canberra.
3) The value to the Al-Maktoum's to look up the road and make faces at the Al-Nahyan's. (hehe)

I think people here are underestimating three major things at play here.

1) The value to EK of being able to sell domestic flights in Australia. They went to the length of selling Virgin Blue (effectively an LCC) flights in the past.
2) The value to EK of adding one additional A380s to each of SYD and MEL (via codeshare) at no cost or expense of other route growth to them, along with gaining favourable opinion as a result of the tie-up in Canberra.
3) The value to the Al-Maktoum's to look up the road and make faces at the Al-Nahyan's. (hehe)

1) Limited domestic flights that form a segment of an international flight that EK are flying.
2) That goes both ways - you could have more people booking through Qantas and using up EK capacity, especially if Qantas brand recovers and people perceive themselves as buying Australian.
3) Who are now picking up disgruntled ex-Emirates flyers on their Etihad planes.

Actually, this is not that new. EK has been planning a 4th tier for ages and apparently, it is all ready to roll. Be interesting to see when this will be actually announced as I have given up waiting ;)

There is a 4th tier already, the 'Invitation Only' tier.

There is a 4th tier already, the 'Invitation Only' tier.

It is not a tier. Benefits are not published. It is available by Invitation Only. Tier levels are determined by tier miles (ie Blue = 0, Silver = 25,000 and Gold = 50,000)

You can argue with me all you want...but you'd be wrong :)

Where was that mentioned?
This wasn't in the QF-EK announcement but Tim Clark told me in response to my question during the media Q&A. I reckon he's a pretty good source. :P

As an Emirates frequent flyer and gold status holder - I cannot see a positive side to this at all for existing Emirates customers. In fact I can only see downsides.

I feel that the Emirates brand and product is in a different class to Qantas and will be dragged down. For example, the Emirates lounge at Melbourne is very pleasant, with excellent staff. It's quite small and has good food and high quality items such as Moet/Veuve champagne etc. How long will this last when opened to Qantas travellers?

Certainly agree. I don't think its positive for EK flyers at all.

Wonder if the regulators will have concerns. I hope so!

I have similar concerns, but there will be multiple options in MEL. For example, you and I as EK Golds, could use either the EK lounge or the QF Business lounge on the lower floor. We couldn't use the QF F lounge though.

QF Gold's could use either the EK lounge, or the QF Business Lounge. And QF Plats/Plat Ones, could use the EK lounge or the QF F lounge. Maybe, they'll be forced to channel each respective tier level to the most appropriate lounge if things start to get out of hand...

I like the EK MEL lounge the most and it's a calm place to spend an hour or so before the flight. You can be sure loads on the EK lounges across the network will increase though...and I bet they will hold off re-instating the Gold guest policy (although I wonder if QF Golds/Plats etc will be allowed to bring a guest into EK lounges, as per their current terms and conditions)

Eightblack I just can't see anyone choosing to use the QF J lounges. The are crap compared with the EK ones. I can only see the quality of the EK lounges dropping to cope with the masses, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

I like the EK MEL lounge the most and it's a calm place to spend an hour or so before the flight. You can be sure loads on the EK lounges across the network will increase though...and I bet they will hold off re-instating the Gold guest policy (although I wonder if QF Golds/Plats etc will be allowed to bring a guest into EK lounges, as per their current terms and conditions)

This often happens in 'remote' lounges. QF's HKG lounge is wonderful and calm. Now when you look at the EK J lounge in Dubai, I would not say that is a calm place. It has to be close to being one of the worst 'major' airline lounges in the world. Last time I went through there I was sat on the floor it was so busy. This was at least 18 months ago, so maybe things have improved.

This often happens in 'remote' lounges. QF's HKG lounge is wonderful and calm. Now when you look at the EK J lounge in Dubai, I would not say that is a calm place. It has to be close to being one of the worst 'major' airline lounges in the world. Last time I went through there I was sat on the floor it was so busy. This was at least 18 months ago, so maybe things have improved.

Hopefully this will change when the new concourse opens up early 2013. I think an additional J lounge catering for 2000 people is part of that.

Yeah, I don't quite see how Emirates benefits from a lot of that.

I am glad you see it this way. Over on the QF we wonder what is in it for QF. :)

The concern for Qantas as a company is that with this partnership there is really no incentive to fly QF metal anymore. So the gain EK will see is to get a hold of all those Qantas Frequent Flyers which will now start to fly EK. QF is working hard to make themselves obsolete.

This might be of interest...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1384818-ek-qf-conference-call-open-invitation.html

IMHO the key to the announcement is the ditching of the QF/BA agreement which I think has been holding QF back for years. LHR has reached it's 'use by' date as far as being a hub for flights to Europe. BA just offers no value to QF anymore. And BA's service offering is inferior to QF. A hub in the Middle East makes incredible sense. And think of the better utilisation of aircraft - fewer jets sitting idle on tarmacs for most of the day because QF will simply turn them around as they do with the new schedules at BKK. QF may even terminate at DXB rather than go onto LHR. It makes so much sense to offer your premium service on the lengthy 14 or so hours sector of MEL,SYD,BNE etc to DXB than on the DXB to European cities sector of about 6 or 7 hours.

So what's in it for EK travellers - probably a more open frequent flyer scheme. But you can be certain that the EK/QF tie up will infuriate and threaten SQ, BA, and Etihad/Virgin, and so price wars are likely :)

A HUGE unanswered question:

-

Will this mean passengers wishing to fly between LHR and DXB can try Qantas?

In other words, will Qantas have fifth freedom rights between Heathrow and Dubai?

A HUGE unanswered question:

-

Will this mean passengers wishing to fly between LHR and DXB can try Qantas?

In other words, will Qantas have fifth freedom rights between Heathrow and Dubai?

Yes, according to this press release.

http://www.emirates.com/ae/english/about/news/news_detail.aspx?article=972231&offset=0

"In addition, Qantas will launch daily A380 services from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via Dubai for a combined unprecedented seven daily A380 flights to London Heathrow."

And they will be using T3 facilities alongside EK. I for one am looking forward to this, as I always wanted to try Qantas F on A380, but never had a reason or flight to do so. If all goes to plan, operations scheduled tp start in April 2013!

My question is how does this effect QF and their relation with OW? Can we earn miles for OW and Skywards if flying QF metal on the DXB-LHR route?

In other news:

Dubai set to become capital city of the Earth.




^

Hi there,
I am still confused over the wording of the takeover and terms

I have x amount of points in my QF flyer account.
I have y amount of points in my EK skywards account.

Am I able to use x points from QF account towards my Skywards account?

Am I able to gain points by flying domestic QF and use towards Skywards account? If so there is going to be an awful lot of happy miners out there who do fly in fly out.

what a great article from crikey http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/

Google is such a b*tch. On the day of the Qantas-Emirates deal reveal, this pops up from the transcript of the ABC TV program Lateline Business on 29 September 2009, when Qantas CEO Alan Joyce was interviewed about alliances with Middle East carriers, and in particular what he saw as the flawed alliance between Etihad and as it was then called, Virgin Blue.


TICKY FULLERTON: How do you think Virgin’s gonna go in the Middle East, because originally Etihad asked you to do this sort of deal, didn’t they?

ALAN JOYCE: We did. I mean, we had the option. We had a co-sharing agreement with Etihad. Etihad approached us about flying into Abu Dhabi, doing a joint venture with them and getting closer. When we looked at the numbers, we couldn’t make it work.

And we – you have to pick your partners to various destinations and we’ve got a great partnership with British Airways, which has stood the test of time, and we’ve got a great partnership with Air France into Paris.

So as a consequence, we looked at the numbers into the Middle East, felt that you were flying into a very competitive market with Emirates and Qatar. You were going to also have those carriers losing a lot of money, so they don’t absolutely operate commercially.
.
And we felt our best alternatives were sticking with the partnerships that work, that’s why we are staying with British Airways and Air France.

At the time, Joyce was wrong, and this writer said so.

Now he is right, unless he stuffs it up, like the share price, the simultaneous domestic capacity and fare war, the Red Q project, the global grounding, fleet choices, and inflicting two hour Q400 turbo-prop flights on the Canberra-Adelaide route.

This could be a turning point. Google us again in a year or so.

Hi there,
I am still confused over the wording of the takeover and terms

I have x amount of points in my QF flyer account.
I have y amount of points in my EK skywards account.

Am I able to use x points from QF account towards my Skywards account?

Am I able to gain points by flying domestic QF and use towards Skywards account? If so there is going to be an awful lot of happy miners out there who do fly in fly out.

My understanding is that you can only earn Skywards miles on domestic flights if they are part of an international itinerary

Haven't read the entire thread, but conjecture amongst QF-haters is that the upside for EK is that QF passengers will get to experience the EK product, and might then become long term EK customers.

Just a thought.

Dave

Quick question from a thicko....

How many Qantas flights will there be into DXB? Just the one each from MEL & SYD?

Quick question from a thicko....

How many Qantas flights will there be into DXB? Just the one each from MEL & SYD?

Plus two from LHR.

Dave

In other news:

Dubai set to become capital city of the Earth.




^

sorry that is already taken ..................... New York

Finally, been waiting for this forever :D :D :D :D

My question is what Emirates ports are included in this deal. Obviously Europe, Middle East and Africa are, but is the Indian Sub-continent or America?.

Especially America could be interesting, because especially for East Cost trips from Perth DXB is often the fastest way. I once read the PER is the highest premium market on EK's new IAH service.

many questions yet to be answered....

Finally, been waiting for this forever :D :D :D :D

My question is what Emirates ports are included in this deal. Obviously Europe, Middle East and Africa are, but is the Indian Sub-continent or America?.

Especially America could be interesting, because especially for East Cost trips from Perth DXB is often the fastest way. I once read the PER is the highest premium market on EK's new IAH service.

many questions yet to be answered....

But you can do that now with pretty decent connection times, or am I missing something.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/sep-2012/5443/global/en

Sydney, 07 September 2012
Qantas today announced a new chauffeur service for Qantas travellers as part of its global airline partnership with Emirates.
Chauffeur Drive, which is planned to start in April 2013, will be offered to Qantas passengers travelling in First and Business on flights greater than 12 hours long.
Passengers will be collected in a luxury vehicle and driven to the airport to meet their flight. On arrival at their destination, they will be met by another chauffeur service and driven to their hotel, office or home.
Travellers connecting via a domestic flight from Adelaide, Brisbane, Canberra, Hobart, Perth, Sydney or Melbourne to an eligible Qantas international flight will have access to Chauffeur Drive. The offer also extends to Qantas customers travelling from Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington to Australia to connect to an eligible Qantas international flight.
Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said the service would be one of the many new benefits stemming from Qantas and Emirates aligning their products to provide a consistent, world-class customer experience.
“Qantas is pleased to offer this new chauffeur service to our premium customers,” said Mr Joyce.
“We know this door-to-door service will be very well received and it’s a prime example of the kind of benefits customers can expect from the new partnership.”
The Chauffeur Drive service will be available to eligible Qantas customers travelling on flights between Australia and London, Dubai, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York, Santiago and Johannesburg.
Subject to regulatory approval, Qantas and Emirates will form a global partnership and provide customers in Australia access to more than 70 one-stop destinations in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
The two airlines’ frequent flyer programs will also be aligned, giving members more opportunities to earn and redeem points on the joint network.
For further details visit www.qantasandemirates.com

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/sep-2012/5443/global/en

Answers a lot of the speculation in the thread as to the why's and wherefore's and when. It is of course all subject to regulatory approval.

Emirates don't put a 'flights over 12 hours' minimum' condition on chaffeur drive.

QF is naturally excluding the chauffeur drive for all flights to SE Asia/NZ from this arrangement while still sounding positive. It reminds me that of Apple vs PC PR lady ad.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0UwO9JWTxQ

My only concern about this Q+E partnership is price fixing. What we'll see is a harmonisation of fares across both airlines, on top of the premium that Aussies pay to fly out. In the long run this might be bad, financially for us the frequent flyers.
I would really like to see a submission (petition?) made to the ACCC on this very issue.

QF is naturally excluding the chauffeur drive for all flights to SE Asia/NZ from this arrangement while still sounding positive. It reminds me that of Apple vs PC PR lady ad.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0UwO9JWTxQ

My only concern about this Q+E partnership is price fixing. What we'll see is a harmonisation of fares across both airlines, on top of the premium that Aussies pay to fly out. In the long run this might be bad, financially for us the frequent flyers.
I would really like to see a submission (petition?) made to the ACCC on this very issue.

Just thinking aloud - it's not a takeover or merger but an alliance and it seems to me enough other airlines fly these routes for it to not be monopolistic or 'referrable'?

Emirates made the announcement today of the planned alliance:

http://www.emirates.com/english/about/qantasandemirates.aspx?intcid=emirates_qantas_230x 210_tcm233-972242

Whilst a merger or takeover is not the only grounds for possible collusion or monopolistic behaviour I do agree that their should be sufficient choice on the routes for it not to be an issue on those grounds.

Perhaps I'm being negative, but I still do not understand the entire deal and for myself can see many negatives.

Commercially, Emirates are doing well, with a growing Australian market. Qantas international was heading towards oblivion, and was almost becoming a tarnished brand. It's history, some patriotism and scant alternatives to some routes and FF programme saving it IMO - I know many business travellers on Qantas who hate them, but blindly fly them because of company policy, keeping their Platinum status or because their credit cards earn Qantas points.

Now we see reports about a $400 million loss being turned around, Qantas back in profit etc. This money has to come from somewhere, increased revenue or cost savings. Revenue has to come from either increased passenger numbers or at the expense of Emirates. Maybe some cost savings because of changing routes/frequencies/fuel etc. The converse is true for Emirates, they must like the deal, presumably because they must be getting increased revenue - which has to come from Qantas's bottom line. I'm pretty sure the market is not going to grow that much, especially with the mining boom slowing down.

I fly MEL-SIN about 15 times a year, so as a gold Skywards I really see negative impacts personally. I don't think the 2 lounges are sustainable, especially as the Emirates one is so small at MEL. That will get shut down and will be a combined Qantas/EK one. Then would they even keep that MEL-SIN route anymore? Or would they let Qantas focus on the Aus-Asia flights?

And lastly, the 4th tier will probably not be attainable for me, our company policy is economy, so around 12 flights economy and 2-3 business a year for me. If they remove benefits from gold then I am starting to struggle to see why I would fly Emirates.

I'm also Air NZ Star Alliance Gold from my several AUS-USA flights and all my intra-Asia flights, that Emirates don't do, I now have to wonder whether I'm better off switching entirely to Star Alliance and using SIA.

It is win-win for everyone - win for both airlines but more importantly, big win for customers.

Perhaps I'm being negative, but I still do not understand the entire deal and for myself can see many negatives.

Commercially, Emirates are doing well, with a growing Australian market. Qantas international was heading towards oblivion, and was almost becoming a tarnished brand. It's history, some patriotism and scant alternatives to some routes and FF programme saving it IMO - I know many business travellers on Qantas who hate them, but blindly fly them because of company policy, keeping their Platinum status or because their credit cards earn Qantas points.

Now we see reports about a $400 million loss being turned around, Qantas back in profit etc. This money has to come from somewhere, increased revenue or cost savings. Revenue has to come from either increased passenger numbers or at the expense of Emirates. Maybe some cost savings because of changing routes/frequencies/fuel etc. The converse is true for Emirates, they must like the deal, presumably because they must be getting increased revenue - which has to come from Qantas's bottom line. I'm pretty sure the market is not going to grow that much, especially with the mining boom slowing down.

I fly MEL-SIN about 15 times a year, so as a gold Skywards I really see negative impacts personally. I don't think the 2 lounges are sustainable, especially as the Emirates one is so small at MEL. That will get shut down and will be a combined Qantas/EK one. Then would they even keep that MEL-SIN route anymore? Or would they let Qantas focus on the Aus-Asia flights?

And lastly, the 4th tier will probably not be attainable for me, our company policy is economy, so around 12 flights economy and 2-3 business a year for me. If they remove benefits from gold then I am starting to struggle to see why I would fly Emirates.

I'm also Air NZ Star Alliance Gold from my several AUS-USA flights and all my intra-Asia flights, that Emirates don't do, I now have to wonder whether I'm better off switching entirely to Star Alliance and using SIA.

I also fail to see the benefits for customers, Many loyal Emirates flyers will feel let down when they learn on boarding that they are indeed flying Qantas. Remember the vast majority of travellers don't understand what codesharing even means. They'll see the EK flight number on their itineraries and assume its an EK flight.

Qantas will have to bring its long haul product up to speed, not just offering the chauffeur service to business and first, but also IFE, catering and customer service. I worked for the Qantas Group for 4 years and can tell you that cost cutting takes priority over providing a quality product/service. Hopefully Emirates can change this trend.

I fly Emirates, but not Qantas... I will be very angry if I am bumped to a QF service on an Emirates ticket given the current differences in product.

I guess what we can all agree on is that this alliance is a win/win for the airlines in terms of cost cutting, network reach and the ever important bottom line (especially for QF). Emirates will however be gambling with their customers.

It will be interesting to see how Etihad/Virgin/Air NZ will react to this newly combined threat

I also fail to see the benefits for customers, Many loyal Emirates flyers will feel let down when they learn on boarding that they are indeed flying Qantas. Remember the vast majority of travellers don't understand what codesharing even means. They'll see the EK flight number on their itineraries and assume its an EK flight.

Qantas will have to bring its long haul product up to speed, not just offering the chauffeur service to business and first, but also IFE, catering and customer service. I worked for the Qantas Group for 4 years and can tell you that cost cutting takes priority over providing a quality product/service. Hopefully Emirates can change this trend.

I fly Emirates, but not Qantas... I will be very angry if I am bumped to a QF service on an Emirates ticket given the current differences in product.

I guess what we can all agree on is that this alliance is a win/win for the airlines in terms of cost cutting, network reach and the ever important bottom line (especially for QF). Emirates will however be gambling with their customers.

It will be interesting to see how Etihad/Virgin/Air NZ will react to this newly combined threat

I think it's too early to tell. I for one am watching this with close interest, as EK is my primary carrier between Australia and SIN (I am in Aus twice a month) and when all the details are clear, I am going to focus my spend on what makes sense. While I have not set foot on a QF long-haul product for 10+ years, I will/may give it another go, especially if I can credit to Skywards.

I dont see them consolidating the lounge product in MEL (in fact, more options if you are travelling F, as you could technically take your pick of which one you wanted to use), I would prefer to use the new QF lounge in SIN (over the EK lounge) and I think the EK F lounge in DXB is excellent (and what promises to be very good lounge product in the new C3 concourse).

My biggest concern is what they have affectionately referred to in the PR materials as being "price consolidation". Which in my books is a polite way of saying that someone is about to crawl up my bottom with a toilet brush. Or something like that.

At present, EK is anywhere between 30-40% cheaper than QF/SQ (ticketing out of SIN), and in my opinion far better overall value. If a price "equalisation" happens, then I will simply use SQ and push everything to Star Alliance. And if I do need to use QF, I'll credit to AA.

The other alarming PR blurb is this mantra "treat each customer as your own". Which is a bit rich coming from the wee Irishman. So at some point next year, as I am about to push back from the gate at say LHR, I'll find myself unceremoniously dumped in the middle of the airport, because he's had another hissy fit with his unions and decides to ground the entire fleet again.

I really do like QF. I have a soft spot for them. I think most Aussies do. But they are now like my favourite Uncle, who I just discovered is sleeping with my sister. I don't trust them.

PS My Uncle isn't really sleeping with my sister.

I also fail to see the benefits for customers, Many loyal Emirates flyers will feel let down when they learn on boarding that they are indeed flying Qantas. Remember the vast majority of travellers don't understand what codesharing even means. They'll see the EK flight number on their itineraries and assume its an EK flight.

Qantas will have to bring its long haul product up to speed, not just offering the chauffeur service to business and first, but also IFE, catering and customer service. I worked for the Qantas Group for 4 years and can tell you that cost cutting takes priority over providing a quality product/service. Hopefully Emirates can change this trend.

I fly Emirates, but not Qantas... I will be very angry if I am bumped to a QF service on an Emirates ticket given the current differences in product.

I guess what we can all agree on is that this alliance is a win/win for the airlines in terms of cost cutting, network reach and the ever important bottom line (especially for QF). Emirates will however be gambling with their customers.

It will be interesting to see how Etihad/Virgin/Air NZ will react to this newly combined threat

Welcome to FT, storm716!

I think many people will actually be please when they step onboard a QF A380. At the same time QF flyers will be pleased when stepping onboard an EK A380.

So far, the majority of what I've heard from family and coworkers about EK says it is overrated.

QF is naturally excluding the chauffeur drive for all flights to SE Asia/NZ from this arrangement while still sounding positive. It reminds me that of Apple vs PC PR lady ad.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0UwO9JWTxQ

My only concern about this Q+E partnership is price fixing. What we'll see is a harmonisation of fares across both airlines, on top of the premium that Aussies pay to fly out. In the long run this might be bad, financially for us the frequent flyers.
I would really like to see a submission (petition?) made to the ACCC on this very issue.
But the chauffeur drive limit also excludes flights from London to Dubai.

My biggest concern is what they have affectionately referred to in the PR materials as being "price consolidation". Which in my books is a polite way of saying that someone is about to crawl up my bottom with a toilet brush. Or something like that.

At present, EK is anywhere between 30-40% cheaper than QF/SQ (ticketing out of SIN), and in my opinion far better overall value. If a price "equalisation" happens, then I will simply use SQ and push everything to Star Alliance. And if I do need to use QF, I'll credit to AA.


My point exactly. EK have always been the good value player in the AU market specially to SIN/BKK (and KUL), though in recent years the whole thing became just another alternative when weighing up QF/BA/CX/SQ/MH/GA/PR/TG -and some Chinese airlines for EU/Middle East destinations.

What scares me the most is that because QF and EK combined will have the largest chunk of passengers in/out of AU, it will be just a toss up between expensive QF/EK and expensive CX/BA/TG/SQ etc.
At the moment EY only does SIN out of BNE (with excellent fares I might add). And QR strategy isn't about running stopover points en route to/from SYD (which is supposed be its next destination down under).

I am not saying the partnership is negative, it has a lot of advantages but my only gripe is/will be the pricing and what this exactly means to the average frequent traveller who spends ~AUD50k a year (out of own pocket) with EK, just because if it was with QF or SQ it would mean a lot more in dollars.

Over the years QF have been losing business to other airlines precisely for this reason, while EK coming out of no where really was attracting business for its good-value fares. I am pretty sure the clever guys in the room would have thought long and hard about this when considering this partnership, it is afterall a lot about more revenue for minimal capital costs. EK brought an extra ~1000 seats between UAE and AU, and the same for UAE and UK for next to nothing (no need for 4-5 A380s, or very expensive slots at LHR). Plus revenue sharing for other points in EU/Subcontinent and Africa. EK also will have what it always wanted, an AU-US revenue tunnel, the possibility to sell circle/RTW fares on own metal (sort of).

BUT, and it's a big but, I really hope that we will not see EK/QF fares going north now that they could (and probably would) drive competitors out of the AU market, simply because no one (including SQ, CX, MH and to a lesser degree BA, EY, QR and many others) can match them for convenience/frequency/product/destinations offered.

I know others will not agree with what I am saying, but there is always the shining example of BA (an airline of great scale) that in the past served quite a few E.Asia/AU points and today only the daily SIN/SYD run. It is possible that other airlines serving AU will meet a similar or even more bleak fate because these routes will become unsustainable. Even if they price competitively, like BI is doing at the moment, in the long run it's a great financial loss in the face EK/QF economies of scale.

BUT, and it's a big but, I really hope that we will not see EK/QF fares going north now that they could (and probably would) drive competitors out of the AU market, simply because no one (including SQ, CX, MH and to a lesser degree BA, EY, QR and many others) can match them for convenience/frequency/product/destinations offered.

Well they have already said there will be collusion on pricing, there will be absolutely no incentive for them to drive prices down.

The only competitive pressure coming from maybe Singapore Airlines who could launch an all out assault on the Australian market. People do love Singapore as a stopover destination, more than Dubai I think. The other carriers just don't carry enough traffic.

Welcome to FT, storm716!

I think many people will actually be please when they step onboard a QF A380. At the same time QF flyers will be pleased when stepping onboard an EK A380.

Very well put.

I have never been on an EK A380, I admit, but I have been on two QF ones and they are a fantastic product. They certainly match what is offered in EK 777s. The IFE on QF A380s is absolutely fine, many many movie options and fully on-demand.

I received better food and service in QF Premium Economy than EK Business (777), by a long long long long margin.

But the chauffeur drive limit also excludes flights from London to Dubai.

Well- not if you're on a codehare flying on EK metal which is what I don't really understand, on the QF website it states:

"Travelling on the Qantas-Emirates network?
Subject to regulatory approvals, Qantas codeshare customers travelling on an Emirates service to/from Dubai will also be eligible for the service including when connecting to other Emirates codeshare destinations where Emirates offer Chauffeur Drive."

The above means that if you're on a QF flight number flying on Emirates metal, you can still get the chauffeur drive. They can't then possibly penalize you if you're on QF metal instead due to the 12 hour rule, can they? :confused:

Very well put.

I have never been on an EK A380, I admit, but I have been on two QF ones and they are a fantastic product. They certainly match what is offered in EK 777s. The IFE on QF A380s is absolutely fine, many many movie options and fully on-demand.

I received better food and service in QF Premium Economy than EK Business (777), by a long long long long margin.

A lot of interesting stuff there, Ms Must Fly.

As a EK gold (and QF Gold and Star Alliance Gold) you might imagine that I do a lot of travelling. That would be true.

In my travels, I have found 380's to be absolutely horrible for Y class pax. Not much better for C class pax. Ask battery hens. They have a better life.

As for the 777's, they are much nicer in every respect.

Please tell me (in clear, non emotional terms) exactly why the 380 is better.

A lot of interesting stuff there, Ms Must Fly.

As a EK gold (and QF Gold and Star Alliance Gold) you might imagine that I do a lot of travelling. That would be true.

In my travels, I have found 380's to be absolutely horrible for Y class pax. Not much better for C class pax. Ask battery hens. They have a better life.

As for the 777's, they are much nicer in every respect.

Please tell me (in clear, non emotional terms) exactly why the 380 is better.

I've only flown the EK 380... but Y is a lot better than the B777 IMO. Although it's 10 across on both planes, the A380 is wider, so there seems to be a lot more room.

The A380 is also a lot quieter than the B777. If you can get a seat near the front of Y - you can hardly hear the engines or any wind noise.

You also get the advantage of not having to wait for the J & F passengers to disembark :)

In J, the A380 is obviously better... BAR! Although I guess some people are not quite the bar animal that I am, and may disagree.

A lot of interesting stuff there, Ms Must Fly.

As a EK gold (and QF Gold and Star Alliance Gold) you might imagine that I do a lot of travelling. That would be true.

In my travels, I have found 380's to be absolutely horrible for Y class pax. Not much better for C class pax. Ask battery hens. They have a better life.

As for the 777's, they are much nicer in every respect.

Please tell me (in clear, non emotional terms) exactly why the 380 is better.
As someone, who has done both EKs A380 and 777s on ULH segments - JFK for the A380 and 777s (13+ hrs of flying time) and IAH for the 777s (16+ hours of flying time), I can clearly vouch for the A380. I hate the 777s so much that I stopped doing IAH and chose to take a break at JFK.

Reasons for Y on A380:
1. Wider seats on the A380
2. A380 is much wider and hence less claustrophobic.
3. Much more space to amble around and stretch yourself on the A380 - the space next to the F stairs is a great place to stretch out and so is the space behind row 51 and the galley.
4. Much quieter and less turbulence.
5. Far more loos on the A380. The front of the a/c has 5! On the 777s, you'll always find a queue of at least 10 people for the loos.
6. And as DYKWIA has said - really quick to get off. Don't have to wait for J and F pax to get off. And quite a few times I've found that I am able to do that before J and F pax at JFK as they have to take a ramp to come down. Saves me so much time at the immigration queue.

Reasons for A380 in J:
1. Fully flat bed on the A380. I get a backache on the 777s
2. Much more privacy on the A380.
3. Really cozy when travelling with partner on vacations in seats E+F. Seems like a private suite.
4. Aisle access for every seat. No need to jump over neighbor.
5. Lounge at the back is awesome.
6. Plus the bench style seats next to the lounge are such a great way to have a conversation with a colleague or just stretch out.

A lot of interesting stuff there, Ms Must Fly.

As a EK gold (and QF Gold and Star Alliance Gold) you might imagine that I do a lot of travelling. That would be true.

In my travels, I have found 380's to be absolutely horrible for Y class pax. Not much better for C class pax. Ask battery hens. They have a better life.

As for the 777's, they are much nicer in every respect.

Please tell me (in clear, non emotional terms) exactly why the 380 is better.
Also, a lot of people have complained that they don't like the service on the A380J. I was in the A380 J and A330J last week and chose to question myself why I didn't seem to mind the A380 J service at all. I came up with 2 answers:

1. Typically if I needed something, I would just get up and get it myself. And whenever, I've asked a passing FA I've never been disappointed (except when the lunch or dinner service is on, which is what I've learnt, is not the best of times to catch an FA's attention).

2. During meal times, because the J seats on the A380 give you an element of privacy, you really don't feel that you are being serviced late because you don't get to see anyone else having food. The only thing you get to see, if you aren't watching a movie, is the FAs going by with meal trays in their hands. On the 777s, I've found myself getting impatient as soon as my neighbors on the other side of the aisle have started to enjoy their food, their sounds and smells permeating the entire cabin and the FAs on our aisle are either still not done with the drinks or servicing a pax with some special request. That's what really irritates me sometimes on the 777s/ 330s and why I choose the A380.

May I know whether the QF flights WLG-SYD-WLG and SYD-MNL-SYD sectors are included in this partnership? And how many miles would it be required for Y and J classes? Thanks for your answers.

This thread had no posts from Sep 9 2012 to Mar 5 2012 (#93) (Mr Google?)

The other EK QF thread here (stated Sept 26 2012) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1391340-ek-qf-partnership.html has more recent posts