Japan - Splurge restaurants in Tokyo?

Been reading this wonderful board in anticipation of my first non-work to Tokyo in October. So much great advice here, I've literally spent hours reading and learning.

I'm looking for recommendations as to the two most splurge-worthy restaurants in Tokyo for two special occasions I am planning. Eyeing RyuGin as one of them, but I could easily be convinced otherwise.

Any help would be much obliged.

It's not exactly "Japanese" in nature but, if you're going to splurge in Tokyo, I think the New York Grill at the top of the Park Hyatt Tokyo is a must, especially if you can get a window seat.

http://ostrovok.ru/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/NewYorkTokyo.jpg

I'm looking for recommendations as to the two most splurge-worthy restaurants in Tokyo for two special occasions I am planning.

What do you want to eat? Tokyo has top-level restaurants for just about every cuisine.

What do you want to eat? Tokyo has top-level restaurants for just about every cuisine.

+1 Let us know what kind of cuisine you're looking for.

Pick up a copy of the Tokyo Michelin Guide.

I would choose Quintessence, although getting a table is impossible.

Definitely keep Ryugin as one of your choices. ^

You could also consider Takazawa.

+1 to Quintessence, although I haven't been there in a while, and the view from NY Grill is lovely in daytime but especially so in the evening.

www.chowhound.com is a much better site with people who like to eat as much as people in FT like to travel. Making Adam Smith and David Ricardo proud.

Thanks, all! Gonna shoot for Quintessence--hoping that between hotel and AmEx concierges it will work out.

Thanks, all! Gonna shoot for Quintessence--hoping that between hotel and AmEx concierges it will work out.

Don't hold your breath waiting for assistance from the Amex concierges. If it's a luxury Tokyo hotel, they will likely do a lot better.

Don't hold your breath waiting for assistance from the Amex concierges. If it's a luxury Tokyo hotel, they will likely do a lot better.

I'm hoping the concierge at the Conrad comes through for me, I've heard good things from friends!

I'm hoping the concierge at the Conrad comes through for me, I've heard good things from friends!

If you are going to stay at the Conrad, Gordon Ramsay has a restaurant upstairs.

Wouldn't call it mind blowing but it was very good.

Michelin is pretty good for non-Asian cuisine, but IMHO it's a little spotty on Japanese and other Asian cuisine.

Michelin is pretty good for non-Asian cuisine, but IMHO it's a little spotty on Japanese and other Asian cuisine.

Indeed. Several Japanese chefs declined their Michelin stars - to horror of many Frenchmen and to the great amusement of this FTer - on the basis that the French didn't understand real Japanese cuisine.

Perhaps you'd like some top-flight sushi? I highly recommend Edogin in Tsukiji. My family has been going there - when we can afford it - for years.

I am trying to stay away from Western-style celeb chefs, I can eat Robuchon, Ramsay, etc. in New York (well was able to eat Robuchon).

Perhaps you'd like some top-flight sushi? I highly recommend Edogin in Tsukiji. My family has been going there - when we can afford it - for years.

Edogin isn't anywhere near top-flight sushi. I love the atmosphere at the honten, but gourmet it isn't.

Edogin isn't anywhere near top-flight sushi. I love the atmosphere at the honten, but gourmet it isn't.

Go on...

Go on...

Meaning, you want my recommendations? It's all spelled out in the place for that, www.chowhound.com

Meaning, you want my recommendations? It's all spelled out in the place for that, www.chowhound.com

Thank you.^

Yeah, Edogin is low to middle end. It's not very expensive either.

I would rate Zanmai or Midori higher.

And I would love to hear how anyone got a table at Quintessence. I have been thinking for the past 9 months of driving over there to try to make a reservation. Trying to phone gets you a busy signal.

Yeah, Edogin is low to middle end. It's not very expensive either.

I would rate Zanmai or Midori higher.

And I would love to hear how anyone got a table at Quintessence. I have been thinking for the past 9 months of driving over there to try to make a reservation. Trying to phone gets you a busy signal.

Looks like we have similar palates. If I can get a reservation will you share the table? :-) Will be a Fri or Sat. but the when is unknown.

Just spoke with them and they are fully booked through Oct. 3 (i.e. the most forward day from today for which reservations can be made.) Will try again tomorrow re: Oct. 4.

Looks like we have similar palates. If I can get a reservation will you share the table? :-) Will be a Fri or Sat. but the when is unknown.

Just spoke with them and they are fully booked through Oct. 3 (i.e. the most forward day from today for which reservations can be made.) Will try again tomorrow re: Oct. 4.

What time do they begin accepting calls?

What time do they begin accepting calls?

9:30am to 11am. I did not ask about lunch so do not know the status of seats for that.

9:30am to 11am. I did not ask about lunch so do not know the status of seats for that.

For those of you providing suggestions, could I ask you to specify the kind of cuisine a given restaurant serves, if it's not glaringly obvious from the name? I ask because I'm following the suggestions closely, but sorting by what kind of cuisine I'm interested in for a particular occasion.

Kawamura was excellent, but on the pricey side as compared to, say, Ron in Osaka. It's a Japanese steakhouse, so not much elaboration is needed.

Sushi Saito was a wonderful experience, far more relaxed and friendly than Sushi Mizutani. Those two are similarly priced and rough equivalents in terms of kinds of fish offered and quality, so for the experience I'd definitely go for Saito's place.

Looks like we have similar palates. If I can get a reservation will you share the table? :-) Will be a Fri or Sat. but the when is unknown.

Just spoke with them and they are fully booked through Oct. 3 (i.e. the most forward day from today for which reservations can be made.) Will try again tomorrow re: Oct. 4.

Hello MJM. I probably won't be around (have RTW booked) in early to mid October. However, if you get through and can get a lunch Sep 11-Sep 30 then please book a table of 2 for me.

Last year they were closed for a week or two around this time of year.

Hello MJM. I probably won't be around (have RTW booked) in early to mid October. However, if you get through and can get a lunch Sep 11-Sep 30 then please book a table of 2 for me.

Last year they were closed for a week or two around this time of year.

Roger that. Have tried the past couple days and the busy signal is incessant. Will keep trying. :)

Researching for my own Tokyo trip brings me to finally register - first post!

Sukiyabashi Jiro is regarded as serving the best sushi in the world. It's not your typical dining experience, but for more, there's an excellent documentary on it - Jiro Dreams of Sushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi).

Researching for my own Tokyo trip brings me to finally register - first post!

Sukiyabashi Jiro is regarded as serving the best sushi in the world. It's not your typical dining experience, but for more, there's an excellent documentary on it - Jiro Dreams of Sushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi).

Welcome to FlyerTalk, JeffAhn.

Researching for my own Tokyo trip brings me to finally register - first post!

Sukiyabashi Jiro is regarded as serving the best sushi in the world. It's not your typical dining experience, but for more, there's an excellent documentary on it - Jiro Dreams of Sushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi).

Hi, JeffAhn, and welcome.

You might be interested to know that whilst Sukiyabashi Jiro has been flooded in acclaim from overseas sources, not all the locals seem to share the same enthusiasm. Makiko Ito, who now occasionally contributes to the Japan Times, recently commented on how paltry the Tabelog rating was for this restaurant
http://tabelog.com/tokyo/A1301/A130101/13002260/
And it's true.
(Quintessence gets a significantly higher score http://tabelog.com/tokyo/A1316/A131602/13022541/ )

I am trying to stay away from Western-style celeb chefs, I can eat Robuchon, Ramsay, etc. in New York (well was able to eat Robuchon).

Dunno. Japanese chefs and patrons tend to have fairly sophisticated taste regarding especially French and Italian (style) food.

And, on the other hand, much of Japanese dining is really an acquired taste. I personally do like offal, fish heads, fish liver and the like but not everyone does, for example.

Dunno. Japanese chefs and patrons tend to have fairly sophisticated taste regarding especially French and Italian (style) food.

And, on the other hand, much of Japanese dining is really an acquired taste. I personally do like offal, fish heads, fish liver and the like but not everyone does, for example.

Yeah, but that's what would we expect from someone who picks the nickname mosburger! :):)

LapLap, is that the same Makiko Itoh who posts about absolutely everything Japanese on the Quora website? Sounds like it and was surprised to see her mentioned here!

LapLap, is that the same Makiko Itoh who posts about absolutely everything Japanese on the Quora website? Sounds like it and was surprised to see her mentioned here!
I don't have a Quora account and know next to nothing about the site.
I AM a fan of the JustHungry and JustBento websites which are hers and what she is best known for.

Here's a second recommendation for reading up at Chowhound Japan. Many great posts over the past couple years.

While I enjoyed Jiro (Roppongi branch more than the original Ginza branch), it is incredibly overpriced. The sushi at Tsukiji (Daiwa in this case) was 85% of Jiro for 10% of the cost.

Most of the "high end" restaurants you'll read about online (in English) aren't really Japanese. Even those that say they are (read: Nobu). Keep in mind, you're reading English, meaning generally targeted at Westerners, so everything is a bit skewed.

I've tried most of the internationally acclaimed "splurge" restaurants in Tokyo. Thus far, I think the one I enjoyed most without completely breaking the bank was Les Creations de Narisawa.

More on the pseudo Japanese side, I highly recommend Ryugin. Perhaps calling it modern Japanese or Japanese fusion is most fair? But I enjoyed my meal at the Robuchon's Chateau even more - the ambiance beats the alley in Roppongi where Ryugin is tucked in.

The NY Grill at the Park Hyatt is a real treat - but only for the view and the music. The experience is great - the food is so so. And that's what I find a lot in Tokyo. Some aspects of each experience are great, other aspects are average at best. Just can't seem to find that one place that nails everything.

Another Michelin restaurant I highly recommend is http://www.jimbocho-den.jp/ ("Japanese"). It's pretty inexpensive at around 9000 yen for a set meal. It gained its first star in 2011 and went up to two stars in 2012. I try to target such restaurants globally (ones that are climbing the Michelin ranks).

What's really cool is that the glassware and napkins are hand made by an artist. You are asked to chose your napkin from an assortment when you are seated.

You can't go wrong if you pick up a copy of the Tokyo Michelin guide. There is also another Michelin guide Petit Bons Plats that lists small French restaurants in Tokyo. It's only in Japanese.

Anyone have any experience with Michel Troisgros?

Just searched on Chowhound, but couldn't find anything other than pictures of the food.

Anyone have any experience with Michel Troisgros?

I had a good time there - creative, modern cooking and stylish presentation. Service was attentive and personal, and the dining room was pleasant enough.

I had a good time there - creative, modern cooking and stylish presentation. Service was attentive and personal, and the dining room was pleasant enough.

Thanks for the response. Do you think that a jacket is necessary even in August?

It might be well air-conditioned, I have no idea. Maybe call them and ask? It's in a hotel, so I'm sure they're used to dealing with English speakers.

Anyone have any experience with Michel Troisgros?

Just searched on Chowhound, but couldn't find anything other than pictures of the food.

You look at: http://www.troisgros.jp/

You can find current lunch and dinner menus there.

I had a good time there - creative, modern cooking and stylish presentation. Service was attentive and personal, and the dining room was pleasant enough.

We had lunch there and agree with lobsterdog's characterization. Food was very good.

I don't have a Quora account and know next to nothing about the site.
I AM a fan of the JustHungry and JustBento websites which are hers and what she is best known for.

Went to the bento site, it's the same person. On Quora she never seems to sleep, she answers everything and anything asked within minutes! We ought to invite her to FT.

Another Michelin restaurant I highly recommend is http://www.jimbocho-den.jp/ ("Japanese"). It's pretty inexpensive at around 9000 yen for a set meal. It gained its first star in 2011 and went up to two stars in 2012. I try to target such restaurants globally (ones that are climbing the Michelin ranks).

What's really cool is that the glassware and napkins are hand made by an artist. You are asked to chose your napkin from an assortment when you are seated.

You can't go wrong if you pick up a copy of the Tokyo Michelin guide. There is also another Michelin guide Petit Bons Plats that lists small French restaurants in Tokyo. It's only in Japanese.

A napkin butler! So that's where all the hotel "pillow butlers" went when that silly fad died out.

More seriously, Michelin is a great guide but while it is helpful, I think it reflects the culture of the creators. As many have pointed out here, I'd regard it as more useful when evaluating western-style restaurants.

This thread is awesome and why I love FT. You guys rock.

Michelin stated in 2008 that they employed 2 Japanese and 3 Europeans when they launched the Tokyo guide. I would guess that the locals focused on Japanese restaurants. If anything, I think the guide over-rates Japanese cuisine(s). I don't think sushi ever deserves more than 1 star. It seems that Japanese steak houses are capped at 1 star, which I think is correct. In my opinion cooking above 1 star has to be creative.

I think the only weakness of Michelin is that some exclusive Japanese restaurants refused to be listed, but not sure if that is still the case. Some restaurants are now listed without photos, which suggests that they are not "cooperative". Apart from this, it is unlikely that Michelin has missed anything on the high end in Tokyo.

This restaurant is really good and I didn't know that it was in Michelin until after I went there the first time. It was suggested by a Japanese friend who went there with us the first time, and she found it using Japanese "foodie" websites.

If anyone thinks that Japanese websites like tabelog are good sources, please note the recent scandal that restaurants employ paid reviewers to boost their rankings. Generally, I find Zagat type review systems to be useless.

Bento.com is not very good. It omits good restaurants (while listing mediocre joints) around where I live and has nothing that is remotely high end.

On the other hand Michelin's Tokyo Petit Bons Plats (French only) included an excellent restaurant in a quiet residential area that would be very hard to uncover unless you live in the neighborhood. (I found it by chance before the guide was published.) But it also includes uninspired places like Viron (a good bakery), which has a crappy restaurant.


A napkin butler! So that's where all the hotel "pillow butlers" went when that silly fad died out.

More seriously, Michelin is a great guide but while it is helpful, I think it reflects the culture of the creators. As many have pointed out here, I'd regard it as more useful when evaluating western-style restaurants.

I don't think sushi ever deserves more than 1 star.

Ah ha, them's fighting words. Have you ever had the good stuff (and I mean the really good stuff)? If you have, and feel that way, à chacun son goût.

The michelin guide is a good way to find restaurants also a lot of the 1 and 2 star restaurants have great set lunches that are usually 3-5 courses and under 4,000 yen

Ah ha, them's fighting words. Have you ever had the good stuff (and I mean the really good stuff)? If you have, and feel that way, à chacun son goût.

+1. It's like nothing else. Totally worth it - once in awhile.

Ah ha, them's fighting words. Have you ever had the good stuff (and I mean the really good stuff)? If you have, and feel that way, à chacun son goût.

I think it's partly an apples vs. oranges issue and I like apples a lot more than oranges. Yes, I have had 3* sushi and I found it underwhelming and not worth the money. Also, the price level reported in the Michelin guide only reports the cheapest option. The place that I went to had options at 20k, 40k or 60k. Next week I can going to eat a 3* in France where the menu is EUR 110. I suppose if price is the criterion for 3* then sushi wins hands down.

I find the whole experience to be a bit cultish and my guess is that it is a hangover from the bubble era where money (and especially value for money) was not an issue. In fact the faster you can burn it, the better.

I also think my question as to why top wagyu restaurants are capped at 1* is worth contemplation. Don't tell me that the special way that a particular sushi chef prepares the rice makes it worthy of three michelin stars. (I am trying to think of an analogy from French cooking. The best I can think of is that the best choucroute gets 3 stars.) Otherwise it's all raw material driven just like wagyu.

I think it's partly an apples vs. oranges issue and I like apples a lot more than oranges. Yes, I have had 3* sushi and I found it underwhelming and not worth the money. Also, the price level reported in the Michelin guide only reports the cheapest option. The place that I went to had options at 20k, 40k or 60k. Next week I can going to eat a 3* in France where the menu is EUR 110. I suppose if price is the criterion for 3* then sushi wins hands down.

I find the whole experience to be a bit cultish and my guess is that it is a hangover from the bubble era where money (and especially value for money) was not an issue. In fact the faster you can burn it, the better.


Look, my roommate in business school's first job was as a waiter at the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo. He rose to director of Food and Beverage for the hotel, so obviously this guy knew food and food sourcing. He knows the intricacies of French food like nobody else I know.

On the other hand, he couldn't tell the difference between Sushi Zanmai or Edogin and the top-flight stuff. Just didn't register in his palate that these two offerings were vastly diffent in quality, not just in price. Maybe you're like him, and that's perhaps your mindset. To some people, good sushi is better than sex.

I can tell the difference between sushi and sex.

I can tell the difference between sushi and sex.

But can you tell the difference between top-flight sex and just plain sex?

But can you tell the difference between top-flight sex and just plain sex?

There's more than one kind? Wow. Just wow.

There's more than one kind? Wow. Just wow.

I guess you haven't had the top-flight stuff, then. Very different from the more pedestrian plain offerings. Some people say it's better than sushi.

I guess you haven't had the top-flight stuff, then. Very different from the more pedestrian plain offerings. Some people say it's better than sushi.

And then there's nyotaimori, which gives you the best of both worlds.

And then there's nyotaimori, which gives you the best of both worlds.

A warm platform for some fish and a nekkid woman who's been lying under some dead fish... hmm. I'll pass.

On the other hand, he couldn't tell the difference between Sushi Zanmai or Edogin and the top-flight stuff. Just didn't register in his palate that these two offerings were vastly diffent in quality, not just in price. Maybe you're like him, and that's perhaps your mindset. To some people, good sushi is better than sex.

I'd still go for a big bowl of miso ramen afterwards.

I'd still go for a big bowl of miso ramen afterwards.

Interesting. I generally just want to lie there cuddling for a while.

Interesting. I generally just want to lie there cuddling for a while.

Or smoke a cigarette.

Interesting. I generally just want to lie there cuddling for a while.

Cuddling with cuddle fish.

Agreed, Pickles, how about a fine cigar after that Tsukiji sushi at 5am.

Just to bring this full circle, I ended up with three bookings: 1) Quintessence, 2) Ryugin and 3) Les Creations de Narisawa.

Thanks again for the recs!

Just to bring this full circle, I ended up with three bookings: 1) Quintessence, 2) Ryugin and 3) Les Creations de Narisawa.

Thanks again for the recs!

Great choices. I've enjoyed 2 and 3 just recently, still looking to try and book 1 sometime.

Great choices. I've enjoyed 2 and 3 just recently, still looking to try and book 1 sometime.

Never been to (1), (2) is one of the finest restaurants I've been to, and (3) was more of an empty suit, famous because it's famous.

Cuddling with cuddle fish.

Agreed, Pickles, how about a fine cigar after that Tsukiji sushi at 5am.

Good idea, bad execution. Proper way would be to start with dinner at some top-flight sushi place, continue onwards with a bottle of Ratafia de Champagne at Elevage. When properly toasted, move on over to Le Con or Chardonnay and smoke a Quay D'Orsay and a Por Larranaga Robusto, accompanied by a bottle of single malt or Ron Zacapa or Havana Club nana-nen. And then, when it isn't clear where you are (or who you are), kaotan ramen at the base of the Aoyama cemetery.

Good idea, bad execution. Proper way would be to start with dinner at some top-flight sushi place, continue onwards with a bottle of Ratafia de Champagne at Elevage. When properly toasted, move on over to Le Con or Chardonnay and smoke a Quay D'Orsay and a Por Larranaga Robusto, accompanied by a bottle of single malt or Ron Zacapa or Havana Club nana-nen. And then, when it isn't clear where you are (or who you are), kaotan ramen at the base of the Aoyama cemetery.


Brilliant as usual - but that was yesterday. What have you got for me today? ;-)

Bento.com is not very good. It omits good restaurants (while listing mediocre joints) around where I live and has nothing that is remotely high end.
:confused:
You're the only person to mention this website in this thread.

:confused:
You're the only person to mention this website in this thread.

FWIW, I'd tend to agree that Bento is an odd mish-mash of mediocre places and not very well updated nor appearing to be written by a 'foodie'. Give that I don't speak the native language and therefore can't use sites like Tabelog, I do once in awhile resort to Bento or Sunnypages, but try to avoid them generally speaking.

Never been to (1), (2) is one of the finest restaurants I've been to, and (3) was more of an empty suit, famous because it's famous.

We started to hear this about Narisawa from a lot of different people. We cancelled and were most fortunate to replace that booking with one at Aronia de Takazawa! Wow, so excited for this trip now!

We started to hear this about Narisawa from a lot of different people. We cancelled and were most fortunate to replace that booking with one at Aronia de Takazawa! Wow, so excited for this trip now!

Aronia will be great, but honestly, my last meal at Narisawa was truly one of my best in Tokyo.

We started to hear this about Narisawa from a lot of different people. We cancelled and were most fortunate to replace that booking with one at Aronia de Takazawa! Wow, so excited for this trip now!

Good call.

If you're adventurous, I highly suggest trying Kaiseki cuisine. It's a type of traditional Japanese cuisine which draws its delicious taste from fine ingredients rather than flavoring. For some people though, it might taste rather bland but it's very unique and healthy!

For Kaiseki cuisine, definitely try Ishikawa at Kagurazaka (it's a 3 Michelin stars restaurant too). If you're staying at Park Hyatt Tokyo, it is very easy to get a reservation there if you go through the concierge. Also, the waitresses are very nice and one even showed me around Kagurazaka after dinner!

For Kaiseki cuisine, definitely try Izakawa at Kagurazaka (it's a 3 Michelin stars restaurant too).
Ishikawa.

Ishikawa.

Beat me to it.

Beat me to it.

Yeah. I first ate there before Tokyo had any stars.

Yeah. I first ate there before Tokyo had any stars.

懐かしい... (http://r.gnavi.co.jp/p388700/)

Ishikawa.

Whoops, sorry about that. Had a brain freeze :D

^懐かしい... (http://r.gnavi.co.jp/p388700/)

For Kaiseki cuisine, definitely try Ishikawa at Kagurazaka (it's a 3 Michelin stars restaurant too). If you're staying at Park Hyatt Tokyo, it is very easy to get a reservation there if you go through the concierge. Also, the waitresses are very nice and one even showed me around Kagurazaka after dinner!

Thanks for the tip -- I live right near there and might make use of it in the near future!

Thanks for the tip -- I live right near there and might make use of it in the near future!

In that case, I recommend you hunt down Shimahei and pre-order a soba kaiseki. (Or just show up and have a bowl of soba, if you prefer). Well worth searching for.

In that case, I recommend you hunt down Shimahei and pre-order a soba kaiseki. (Or just show up and have a bowl of soba, if you prefer). Well worth searching for.

I've done Shimahei many a time for lunch when I worked nearby -- very good, but along with Kyorakutei I don't quite get the hype. Perhaps the omakase at dinner is more impressive.

I've done Shimahei many a time for lunch when I worked nearby -- very good, but along with Kyorakutei I don't quite get the hype. Perhaps the omakase at dinner is more impressive.

I really like Kyorakutei too, although it feels less rare to me than Shimahei. At Shimahei, I'm not aware of an omakase that one can order on spec. AFAIK, you need to give Shimada san 24 hours warning and request the soba kaiseki.

A belated thanks for all the recommendations. Hands down, the best food, wine and experience was at Takazawa! Can't wait to go back now!

A belated thanks for all the recommendations. Hands down, the best food, wine and experience was at Takazawa! Can't wait to go back now!

hah, It's always a relief when a restaurant I recommend is enjoyed as much by others! Glad to hear you had a great time. :)

I'm going to add a new one to the list: Sushiso Masa in Roppongi.

Sushi Saito was fully booked, so I asked my concierge for a recommendation of someplace similar. Sushiso Masa totally fit the bill. Small, just seven seats, in a basement space that's got that wonderful "hidden gem" feel. Wonderful sushi-- everything tastes like butter. Very personable chef. All-in check for two pax, including corkage for one bottle, was about 41,000 yen. I would heartily recommend it.

Not quite a splurge restaurant, but certainly worth honorable mention: Omae XEX, a teppanyaki and sushi restaurant tucked into a residential neighborhood a short walk from the main strip in Roppongi, it has a design look like a swank nightclub but delivers very good food and fine service. The only knock, such as it is, is that the patrons on a recent holiday Sunday were almost all foreigners, so you might miss out on the feel of an authentic Japanese place. Dinner for two, including one bottle by corkage, was about 32,000 yen.

FWIW, I'd tend to agree that Bento is an odd mish-mash of mediocre places and not very well updated nor appearing to be written by a 'foodie'. Give that I don't speak the native language and therefore can't use sites like Tabelog, I do once in awhile resort to Bento or Sunnypages, but try to avoid them generally speaking.

I used bento.com when I was in Japan in 2006 - and actually dined with the fellow who writes it. I think it's the best food website written in English when it comes to Japan. Robyn

P.S. I think a lot of people here have very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

P.S. I think a lot of people here have very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

"Here" being near Jacksonville, FL?

"Here" being near Jacksonville, FL?

Here being Flyertalk. Robyn

I used bento.com when I was in Japan in 2006 - and actually dined with the fellow who writes it. I think it's the best food website written in English when it comes to Japan. Robyn

P.S. I think a lot of people here have very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

Have you tried eatpia.com? and if so, thoughts...? I think it puts Rob's site to shame for detail and discerning, but lacks the volume.

P.S. I think a lot of people here have very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

So, pray tell, where in Tokyo would you consider dining that would be up to your standards?

Have you tried eatpia.com? and if so, thoughts...? I think it puts Rob's site to shame for detail and discerning, but lacks the volume.

Thanks for the website. I've bookmarked it - and should get a chance to look at it over the holidays (or in January). Today I finished our airline booking and made a tentative hotel reservation. I think that's enough for one day :). Robyn

So, pray tell, where in Tokyo would you consider dining that would be up to your standards?

It's not only a question of standards - but of different kinds of restaurants. And catching up on Tokyo 2013 versus Tokyo 2006. And - like I said above - first things first. Like airline tickets and hotel reservations. FWIW - my husband and I eat very little beef. We didn't eat beef at all in Japan during our last trip. And I doubt we'll eat beef on this trip. Also - unless there's a great reason not to do it - we will skip all "international" restaurants in favor of those that serve Japanese food. Some of our best memories from our last trip involved learning about all different kinds of Japanese food that were difficult/impossible to find anywhere near home/in the United States.

I have never seen a Michelin Guide to Tokyo. And will probably take a look at it. The old one is out of stock on Amazon - and it looks like the new one will arrive in January.

Also - I'll start to explore restaurant websites. Someone told me the most famous Tokyo one is Tableog. Unfortunately - it's only written in Kanji. Which - of course - I can't read. Still - the main restaurant guide to Sweden - the White Guide - is written only in Swedish. I can't read Swedish either - but I learned a lot from the White Guide just looking at the ratings and the icons. Robyn

I have never seen a Michelin Guide to Tokyo. And will probably take a look at it. The old one is out of stock on Amazon - and it looks like the new one will arrive in January.

Many people I know consider people who rely on the Michelin Guide to Tokyo as having very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

It sounds to me like you're making a blanket statement as you go to the stable to milk the cows, when many people who post in this forum are coming back with trays of aged cheeses.

Many people I know consider people who rely on the Michelin Guide to Tokyo as having very unadventurous/undiscerning palates.

It sounds to me like you're making a blanket statement as you go to the stable to milk the cows, when many people who post in this forum are coming back with trays of aged cheeses.

I might well agree with you. When we were in Japan in 2006 - Michelin hadn't arrived. Perhaps it isn't something one should follow slavishly. OTOH - perhaps it isn't worth ignoring either. I'll just have to take a look - and cross-check - and make up my mind after I read it. Robyn

I might well agree with you. When we were in Japan in 2006 - Michelin hadn't arrived. Perhaps it isn't something one should follow slavishly. OTOH - perhaps it isn't worth ignoring either. I'll just have to take a look - and cross-check - and make up my mind after I read it. Robyn

The Michelin Guide did uncover for me some new food vistas I had previously not known about, so it was helpful. On the other hand, there is a fixation with many foreigners to get the guide, rank order the restaurants based on the number of stars, and then star-fecking and filling the schedule from top to bottom based purely on what Michelin says. That's just daft.

Tabelog is much broader and crowd-sources local Japanese tastes, which aren't necessarily Western tastes, and in some cases, just plain wrong, especially when it comes to non-Japanese, non-European food. But is also a good resource.

star-fecking
:D

Star-fecking... across the universe
Boldly going forward
'Cos we can't find reverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=FCARADb9asE)

I just ran across this. Ought to make things interesting:

http://www.timeout.jp/en/tokyo/feature/6433/Michelin-Guide-2013-in-3-minutes

Robyn

I just ran across this. Ought to make things interesting:

http://www.timeout.jp/en/tokyo/feature/6433/Michelin-Guide-2013-in-3-minutes

Robyn

In what way? Araki closed his restaurant and moved to London. Nothing else has really changed. Not printing the edition in English should reduce annoying culinary star-fecking tourism, which is a plus. The locals don't rely on it as much, and many find it completely misguided, if you excuse the pun.

In what way? Araki closed his restaurant and moved to London. Nothing else has really changed. Not printing the edition in English should reduce annoying culinary star-fecking tourism, which is a plus. The locals don't rely on it as much, and many find it completely misguided, if you excuse the pun.

I meant from the "no English" POV. FWIW - I think the easiest way that restaurants in Japan eliminate non-Japanese (if they care to) is by having websites only in Japanese (or no websites at all). Also - by refusing to accept reservations from people who can't speak fluent Japanese. I can't say that we ran across the "no non-Japanese speakers" policy too often on our first trip. But we did run across it. And we solved the problem by "meeting" Japanese speaking friends who were interested in dining on line and inviting them to be our guests for a meal. Note that my husband learned to speak a little Japanese for our last trip - and he will probably learn more for this trip. But no way he is or ever will be fluent.

You are probably right that the locals don't rely as much on Michelin as they rely on Tableog - but an on line friend of mine who knows a lot more about these things than I do says there is a pretty decent correlation between Michelin and Tableog - with an occasional "one off" (he gave the example of Hamadaya).

And I honestly don't know why culinary tourism should be scorned. How would you like it if you came to the US from Japan and wanted to dine at a great restaurant - or play a great golf course? And you were told "sorry - only local fluent English speakers allowed". Japan's economy hasn't been great in a long time - and its tourism industry lags far behind that industry in many other countries. So I don't see the point of your point of view. Robyn

I meant from the "no English" POV. FWIW - I think the easiest way that restaurants in Japan eliminate non-Japanese (if they care to) is by having websites only in Japanese (or no websites at all). Also - by refusing to accept reservations from people who can't speak fluent Japanese. I can't say that we ran across the "no non-Japanese speakers" policy too often on our first trip. But we did run across it. And we solved the problem by "meeting" Japanese speaking friends who were interested in dining on line and inviting them to be our guests for a meal. Note that my husband learned to speak a little Japanese for our last trip - and he will probably learn more for this trip. But no way he is or ever will be fluent.

You are probably right that the locals don't rely as much on Michelin as they rely on Tableog - but an on line friend of mine who knows a lot more about these things than I do says there is a pretty decent correlation between Michelin and Tableog - with an occasional "one off" (he gave the example of Hamadaya).

And I honestly don't know why culinary tourism should be scorned. How would you like it if you came to the US from Japan and wanted to dine at a great restaurant - or play a great golf course? And you were told "sorry - only local fluent English speakers allowed". Japan's economy hasn't been great in a long time - and its tourism industry lags far behind that industry in many other countries. So I don't see the point of your point of view. Robyn

On the correlation between Michelin and Tabelog, yes, there is one, but it is the jarring discrepancies (Hamadaya, as you point out, being one of them) that generate all the controversy and the brouhaha. Very simply, the view among many in Japan is: if they can't get Hamadaya "right", why should we trust the rest of these interlopers with their reviews? Never mind that most (I believe all now) of the reviewers are Japanese and that there is still a high correlation between Michelin and the vox populi.

As for culinary tourism, when star-fecking seagulls swoop in to poop and clog up restaurant reservations for months in advance such that it is impossible to go to certain places without a six-month lead time (if at all), and in the end cancel for whatever reason leaving an unannounced hole in the schedule that prevents others from eating there and supporting the restaurant (and trust me, this happens all the time among the fickle), that's just destructive.

I'm all for full restaurants and a strong culinary economy, and even having to plan days or maybe couple of weeks to eat somewhere interesting (as one plans a vacation), but these six-month lead times to some places, driven primarily by star-feckers, that's just distorting the market and pissing off the locals, both the restaurant and the natives.

And that's how they respond: print the guide only in Japanese, refuse non-Japanese speakers, or lately, the best one is to charge out-of-country reservations up-front non-refundable deposits equivalent to the cost of the meal. Kind of what some high-end restaurants in the US do, by charging the credit card in case of a no-show, they know what kind of shmendriks they are dealing with and behave accordingly. The Japanese are simply responding in their own way, which may appear dissonant among the White Water Buffalo, but the economic effect is the same, to discourage market-distorting star-fecking tourism. And I'm all for that.

On the correlation between Michelin and Tabelog, yes, there is one, but it is the jarring discrepancies (Hamadaya, as you point out, being one of them) that generate all the controversy and the brouhaha. Very simply, the view among many in Japan is: if they can't get Hamadaya "right", why should we trust the rest of these interlopers with their reviews? Never mind that most (I believe all now) of the reviewers are Japanese and that there is still a high correlation between Michelin and the vox populi.

As for culinary tourism, when star-fecking seagulls swoop in to poop and clog up restaurant reservations for months in advance such that it is impossible to go to certain places without a six-month lead time (if at all), and in the end cancel for whatever reason leaving an unannounced hole in the schedule that prevents others from eating there and supporting the restaurant (and trust me, this happens all the time among the fickle), that's just destructive.

I'm all for full restaurants and a strong culinary economy, and even having to plan days or maybe couple of weeks to eat somewhere interesting (as one plans a vacation), but these six-month lead times to some places, driven primarily by star-feckers, that's just distorting the market and pissing off the locals, both the restaurant and the natives.

And that's how they respond: print the guide only in Japanese, refuse non-Japanese speakers, or lately, the best one is to charge out-of-country reservations up-front non-refundable deposits equivalent to the cost of the meal. Kind of what some high-end restaurants in the US do, by charging the credit card in case of a no-show, they know what kind of shmendriks they are dealing with and behave accordingly. The Japanese are simply responding in their own way, which may appear dissonant among the White Water Buffalo, but the economic effect is the same, to discourage market-distorting star-fecking tourism. And I'm all for that.

I'm not sure any guide gets everything right. That's why I try to cross-check best I can before reserving at a very expensive place.

I honestly can't relate to people canceling reservations at the last minute for no reason - especially at far-away "destination" restaurants. I've never done that. OTOH - I resent some of the new reservations practices I've seen at US restaurants. Pay in advance - no refunds. My husband and I aren't young (nor are our siblings) - and my father is 94. I would never cancel a trip unless there was a health emergency. And - in all the years we've traveled - we've only had to do it once - when my late MIL got very sick about a month before a scheduled trip to Norway. We had booked a cruise on the Hurtigruten - excellent cabin - high season. $500 deposit. And the operator wasn't even willing to give us a partial refund if it re-booked our cabin at the same or a higher fare (which I'm sure it did). Anyway - these days - I only do reservations that can be canceled pretty much near last minute (within 1-7 days) - except for airline tickets (where my maximum downside is - for example - $300 on this trip).

I think the way to do away with bookings 6 months in advance is not to allow bookings 6 months in advance. Most of the restaurants we reserve just about everywhere will only take bookings 1-2 months in advance (although I've found that the rules can be bent somewhat when booking lunch instead of dinner - or if you're booking at a hotel restaurant and staying at the hotel).

Anyway - none of this should prove much of a hindrance in terms of our dining in Tokyo. Tokyo has more restaurants than my county has people :D. And I don't eat to put "restaurant notches" on my belt these days (I'm kind of a black belt - retired). I eat to enjoy good ---> great food. And - although we have great golf where I live now - our restaurant scene is kind of feeble (and the ethnic food scene is pretty awful). I doubt I will be disappointed in Tokyo.

BTW - that whole restaurant reservation thing works both ways. When we went to Germany in 2007 - we made a reservation at Vendome months in advance. Even stayed at the frigging hotel there. We reconfirmed our restaurant reservation when we arrived at the hotel 2 nights before. And when we showed up for dinner - dressed to the "nines" - they told us they didn't have our reservation. But I didn't believe it - not for one minute. Because the guy who took the last table in the place - who was standing right in front of us when we arrived - was some kind of movie star who apparently didn't have a reservation (we can understand some German). We wound up seated at a make-shift table in front of the serving station. Didn't go down the right way with me at all (although the hotel tried to make amends the next morning with some vinegar and olive oil that I couldn't carry on board and obviously would never put in my luggage). Robyn

Have you tried eatpia.com? and if so, thoughts...? I think it puts Rob's site to shame for detail and discerning, but lacks the volume.

Just thought I'd mention it here. This book that Robb wrote is pretty good in terms of defining the structure of dining in Japan and the important cuisines/types of restaurants found there (note that I don't get a sales commission if someone buys the book ;)):

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-What-Japanese-Restaurants-Ordering/dp/4770020864/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355702399&sr=8-2&keywords=robb+satterwhite

Robyn

Just thought I'd mention it here. This book that Robb wrote is pretty good in terms of defining the structure of dining in Japan and the important cuisines/types of restaurants found there (note that I don't get a sales commission if someone buys the book ;)):

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-What-Japanese-Restaurants-Ordering/dp/4770020864/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355702399&sr=8-2&keywords=robb+satterwhite

Robyn

Hmmm.... I believe it does one no good at all to be able to order without understanding the meal in the greater sense. Robb has always been more of a Sake guy since I started reading his stuff back in the 90's. His reviews are frustratingly geared towards the lower end diner and show a bias that exudes a lack of understanding of the finer side of dining.

Take his writing with a large grain of salt. Knowing what is on the menu will not help one iota when the key top the meal is the specific piece of fish the chef bought that day. Often that is far more important than what the menu says.

Keiji salmon is a good example. Would not be on the menu but would be something a Washoku aficionado would relish.

Come on, the reason that Michelin didn't publish a 2013 English version is surely that the 2012 English guide didn't sell last year post Fukushima.

Had dinner a few weeks ago at Pierre Gagnaire @ the Intercontinental at Ark Hills. It was as stuffy, pretentious and modern as I expected.

On the plus side, I had absolutely the most divine mushroom truffle risotto I can ever remember enjoying. I was so incredibly pleased with the flavor of the shaved truffles on top, I honestly declared it to the waiter as the single best dish I've had all year long. And it was absolutely true. Phenomenal and incredibly memorable. I can't often say that about any particular meal, let alone one dish at even some of the best restaurants in the world I've had the pleasure of dining at.

That said, one thing I was UNIMPRESSED with was the corkage fee. Sure, I brought my own bottle of Opus One, sure the waiter informed me that he'd be glad to pour it and there'd be a corkage fee. And no, I didn't ask how much, because I _assumed_ it would be reasonable.

On the bill, the corkage fee was listed: 12,000 Yen. About $140 USD of pure profit for Mr. Gagnaire! At least I enjoyed the truffle risotto!

I can't wait to learn where Robyn and her hyper-discerning palate dined in Tokyo!

Hmmm.... I believe it does one no good at all to be able to order without understanding the meal in the greater sense. Robb has always been more of a Sake guy since I started reading his stuff back in the 90's. His reviews are frustratingly geared towards the lower end diner and show a bias that exudes a lack of understanding of the finer side of dining.

Take his writing with a large grain of salt. Knowing what is on the menu will not help one iota when the key top the meal is the specific piece of fish the chef bought that day. Often that is far more important than what the menu says.

Keiji salmon is a good example. Would not be on the menu but would be something a Washoku aficionado would relish.

Well - I like this book of his because it contains brief explanations of most/all of the kinds of restaurants - especially specialty restaurants - you're likely to encounter in Japan. I never knew there was such a thing as a tempura restaurant or an eel restaurant or a tofu restaurant. Along the same lines is an article in issue 62 (2002) of the Art of Eating - "Twelve Restaurants in Tokyo" - which also deals with some of the various kinds of specialty restaurants.

I also liked the book because it contained some useful information about Japanese dining habits/etiquette.

I think it's hard to go wrong spending $8 for the book on Amazon (there's a new edition which I can't vouch for - I have the old edition). I'm not sure the back issue of the Art of Eating is worth the price ($13.50).

I agree with you that the menu information in the book is kind of worthless for occasional leisure travelers like me and my husband. My husband speaks very basic conversational Japanese - and he doesn't read a word. Nor are we - coming from Florida - likely to learn everything about fish in Japan during a short trip (although it's fun to try to learn a little going through department store food basements).

So - on our first trip - we either ordered "omakase" at higher end places or set meals at lower end places. And we plan to do the same on this trip.

FWIW - although one might consider the "plastic food" set meals in restaurant windows kind of tacky - I thought they were great guides in terms of what to expect/order (it's also a lot of fun browsing the area in Tokyo where the "plastic food" is sold). I never could have figured out this eel restaurant without "plastic food":

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10505567@N07/2499532649/in/set-72157605103825380

Also - for a country that is seemingly very serious - there are a surprising number of goofy youtubes about Japan - including ones about dining :):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAJeUONc3b0

Robyn

Come on, the reason that Michelin didn't publish a 2013 English version is surely that the 2012 English guide didn't sell last year post Fukushima.

Sounds plausible. But the problem with that theory is the 2012 Guide is sold out - at least on places like Amazon (book is available from 3rd party sellers). Robyn

I can't wait to learn where Robyn and her hyper-discerning palate dined in Tokyo!

Well - I did post a fair number of messages about our trip in 2006 - but won't be able to post about our trip in 2013 until months from now.

At this point - I don't have a clue where we'll eat. About the only thing I can say is we really love a lot of types of Japanese food - and will be exploring them. Also - we will be doing some big deal restaurants - and some not big deal restaurants. We will have some reservations - and other days that are open for exploring. Also - we may try "Modern Japanese" (although we probably won't be doing French and the like - if I want to eat French food - I'll go to France). Part of the fun here is the learning and the planning :). Robyn

Sounds plausible. But the problem with that theory is the 2012 Guide is sold out - at least on places like Amazon (book is available from 3rd party sellers). Robyn

Rubbish. I can have it delivered tomorrow and the price is heavily discounted from the list price of 2500 or 2400 yen.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Michelin-Guide-Tokyo-Yokohama-Shonan/dp/2067169823/ref=pd_sim_b_8

And they also still sell the 2010 guide in English. Also the 2011 and 2012 Osaka guides in English on Amazon.co.jp. The only Japanese guides for sale there are Tokyo 2013 and BPT (see below). I think the evidence points to that English language guides have sold poorly in Japan.

The Bonnes Petites Tables Tokyo (small French restaurants) is also Japanese only. It came out July 2011. I don't think it had a follow up (?). I highly recommend it.

p.s. The theory that "they" don't want tourists clogging up top restaurants and therefore don't publish in English is ridiculous. Michelin guide publishing is a business. If they perceived demand in French they would publish the Tokyo guide in French.

Rubbish. I can have it delivered tomorrow and the price is heavily discounted from the list price of 2500 or 2400 yen.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Michelin-Guide-Tokyo-Yokohama-Shonan/dp/2067169823/ref=pd_sim_b_8

And they also still sell the 2010 guide in English. Also the 2011 and 2012 Osaka guides in English on Amazon.co.jp. The only Japanese guides for sale there are Tokyo 2013 and BPT (see below). I think the evidence points to that English language guides have sold poorly in Japan.

The Bonnes Petites Tables Tokyo (small French restaurants) is also Japanese only. It came out July 2011. I don't think it had a follow up (?). I highly recommend it.

p.s. The theory that "they" don't want tourists clogging up top restaurants and therefore don't publish in English is ridiculous. Michelin guide publishing is a business. If they perceived demand in French they would publish the Tokyo guide in French.

You're apparently located in Tokyo looking at amazon.jp. I'm in the United States - and ordering from amazon.com. I can understand why there would be less demand in Japan for the English Michelin than there is in the United States. Also - it is possible that when the news of the no new English guide in 2013 was announced in November - lots of 3rd party sellers bought the remaining stock from various places - including Amazon (which is perhaps why Amazon itself doesn't have the 2012 edition - but has the editions from 2008-2011).

In any event - regardless of theories we might come up with - I wound up buying the 2012 guide from a 3rd party seller for about $1 more (book + shipping) than I would have paid using Amazon Prime. Note that I agree that Michelin is in business to make money. And it will come up with new guides or not publish new editions of existing ones depending on its perception of demand. FWIW - I don't know if Japan is a popular tourist destination for people from the west these days (it didn't seem to be when we were there in 2006).

Thank you for recommending Bonnes Petites Tables Tokyo. I think that since our trip will only be for a week - we will stick pretty much to Japanese food. It's really hard to get excellent Japanese food in north America - and I am looking forward to trying various specialty restaurants.

Finally - since this is a thread about "splurge restaurants" - what do people think of Ryugin - 7chome Kyobashi - or Saito? Robyn

...(although we probably won't be doing French and the like - if I want to eat French food - I'll go to France)...

I would not be so quick to dismiss the French option in Tokyo. The Japanese take on it can be very interesting, incorporating Japanese ingredients and surprising taste riffs on French classics.

Chapel Hill is 100% correct. Especially if you are coming from the US where regular French restaurants often are dreadful to mediocre.

Here is the list of new entrants and upgrades for 2013.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/list-newly-michelin-starred-tokyo-restaurants-2013-113945233.html

I like to target upgraded restaurants, so Jushu and Ryuzu should be interesting. Jinbocho Den went from zero to two stars (2012) within two years and I started going there before their first star. Otherwise, Tsukiji Suzuki and Liberte de Takeda piqued my interest of the newcomers.

Chapel Hill is 100% correct. Especially if you are coming from the US where regular French restaurants often are dreadful to mediocre...

I agree about French food in most of the United States. And I'm not going to rule out anything at this point. Especially since a quick look revealed that Pierre Gagnaire has lunch menus starting at 8000 yen (http://www.anaintercontinental-tokyo.jp/pierre_gagnaire/eng/lunch/index.html). That's a much better deal than that 12000 yen corkage fee! Robyn