Chase Ultimate Rewards - Best credit card for restaurants? Citi Forward vs Chase Sapphire Pref

I'm trying to decide what is the best card to earn miles at restaurants: Citi Forward, Chase Sapphire Preferred, or some other card

Citi Forward earns 5x Thank You points for each dollar spent that can be later redeemed for travel at 1.33 multiplier. In other words, total earning rate is 6.66x TYP.

Chase Sapphire Preferred earns 2x at restaurants. Combined with 7% end of the year bonus, total rate is 2.14x UR

In other words, if you can do redeem at 3.11 (6.66/2.14) cpm or better than use Chase Sapphire Pref. Otherwise, use Citi Forward.

Let's look at some examples.

1) Domestic economy ticket:
25,000 miles would require $11,682 in spending on Chase Sapphire Pref. Similar spending on Citi Forward would generate enough TYP for $771.03 airfare. I think it's fair to say that most domestic flights are under $771.

Citi Forward 1 - Chase Sapphire Pref 0

2) International business ticket:
It takes 100,000 miles for RT to Europe, which would require $46,728 in spending on Chase Sapphire Pref. Similar spending on Citi Forward would generate enough TYP for $3,112 airfare.

I don't remember a single instance when I paid under $4,000 for business fare to Europe.

Chase Sapphire Pref 1 - Citi Forward 1

3) Hyatt rooms:
Below is the table of points required for particular category room - required spending to generate enough UR points - dollar equivalent of TYP after similar spending:

Cat 1 - 5,000 - $2,336 - $156
Cat 2 - 8,000 - $3,738 - $249
Cat 3 - 12,000 - $5,607 - $373
Cat 4 - 15,000 - $7,009 - $467
Cat 5 - 18,000 - $8,411 - $560
Cat 6 - 22,000 - $10,280 - $685

I would say that with exception of some very expensive Hyatt properties (in Paris, Sydney, Tokyo, maybe Buenos Aires) Citi Forward spending would generate more benefits than Chase Sapphire Pref

Citi Forward 2 - Chase Sapphire 1

I prefer the forward card as I don't transfer ur points, I redeem airfare thru the ur mall. Though this quarter I've been using my freedom card at restaurants at 5+ ur points. But others may differ. In essence I'm laundering miles. Easy way to reach status with a particulat airline.

Eat only at dining reward places. Buy set specific # of dines to reach VIP example 2 miles to 4 miles a dollar and then register and use your fave credit card.

I was pulling in 5 AA miles + 1 bonus AA mile + 2 ur points per dollar at my fave steak place. Check your options oh and I always go out to pickup lunch for my office and make them pay me back.

Eat only at dining reward places. Buy set specific # of dines to reach VIP example 2 miles to 4 miles a dollar and then register and use your fave credit card.

I was pulling in 5 AA miles + 1 bonus AA mile + 2 ur points per dollar at my fave steak place. Check your options oh and I always go out to pickup lunch for my office and make them pay me back.

Good suggestion!

The good thing is that Dining programs are independent of credit card you use. I linked both Citi Forward and Chase Sapphire with AA Dining program.

Unfortunately, most of restaurants that participate in these Dining programs are sub-par at best (at least in NYC). I found several places that are OK, but those are rare.

Citi Forward earns 5x Thank You points for each dollar spent that can be later redeemed for travel at 1.33 multiplier. In other words, total earning rate is 6.66x TYP.

3) Hyatt rooms:
Below is the table of points required for particular category room - required spending to generate enough UR points - dollar equivalent of TYP after similar spending:

Cat 1 - 5,000 - $2,336 - $156
Cat 2 - 8,000 - $3,738 - $249
Cat 3 - 12,000 - $5,607 - $373
Cat 4 - 15,000 - $7,009 - $467
Cat 5 - 18,000 - $8,411 - $560
Cat 6 - 22,000 - $10,280 - $685

I would say that with exception of some very expensive Hyatt properties (in Paris, Sydney, Tokyo, maybe Buenos Aires) Citi Forward spending would generate more benefits than Chase Sapphire Pref

Citi Forward 2 - Chase Sapphire 1

IIRC you don't get 1.33 multiplier when redeeming TYP for hotel stays, so the above Hyatt comparison table needs be revised for the last column.

If you have large spend on dining each month, then I suppose TYP (Forward card) could be useful to generate enough points for a meaningful redemption. For me, when comparing different rewards programs, in addition to one category of spend I also try to account for major/routine spend for total earning potential and reduce opportunity cost. TYP has only a few good earning cards such as Forward card for restaurant (and also Amazon) spend, while Chase UR has a number of CCs that offer much wider selection of favorable spend categories -- in addition to dining Sapphire Preferred covers all forms of travel including commuter transits, Freedom has 5X rotating categories and INK with 5X office supply and others). Overall I like Chase UR program more than Citi TYP program. I have and will continue to hold the Forward card (mainly for Amazon purchases) but will probably cancel TYP Premier card in a few month (annual fee isn't cost efficient in my case).

I'm trying to decide what is the best card to earn miles at restaurants: Citi Forward, Chase Sapphire Preferred, or some other card

Citi Forward earns 5x Thank You points for each dollar spent that can be later redeemed for travel at 1.33 multiplier. In other words, total earning rate is 6.66x TYP.

Chase Sapphire Preferred earns 2x at restaurants. Combined with 7% end of the year bonus, total rate is 2.14x UR

In other words, if you can do redeem at 3.11 (6.66/2.14) cpm or better than use Chase Sapphire Pref. Otherwise, use Citi Forward.



Great analysis. Seems like Citi forward is the way to go for restaurants. And you would also earn EQMs on flights bought with TYP, right? Are there any restrictions on redeeming TYPs?

Keep in mind the Forward card is capped at 75k thank you points a year. That's a ton of spend, but some people might hit that on this board between restaurants and amazon at 5x

I take it as given that folks are earning with Forward but redeeming with Preferred? That seems to be the way to maximize TYPs.

I've been using Sapphire Preferred as my go to restaurant card. I did however just get a limited time bonus good until 9/30 on my Citi AA card that offers 3 AA points per $1 spend on certain categories including restaurants so I'm using that card right now.

I remember the days that the Hilton Amex used to give 5 points per $1 spend but sadly that was removed.

I take it as given that folks are earning with Forward but redeeming with Preferred? That seems to be the way to maximize TYPs.

That is the best way to maximize them, yes. In the past, though, I use my TY points for things/toys I wouldn't normally buy, not really for travel. I got myself a bunch of amazon credit that I'm turning into a t4i. I'm stockpiling UR points to transfer to United, though, once my next app cycle comes up and I can get the CSP.

I'm trying to decide what is the best card to earn miles at restaurants: Citi Forward, Chase Sapphire Preferred, or some other card

Citi Forward earns 5x Thank You points for each dollar spent that can be later redeemed for travel at 1.33 multiplier. In other words, total earning rate is 6.66x TYP.

Chase Sapphire Preferred earns 2x at restaurants. Combined with 7% end of the year bonus, total rate is 2.14x UR

In other words, if you can do redeem at 3.11 (6.66/2.14) cpm or better than use Chase Sapphire Pref. Otherwise, use Citi Forward.

Let's look at some examples.

1) Domestic economy ticket:
25,000 miles would require $11,682 in spending on Chase Sapphire Pref. Similar spending on Citi Forward would generate enough TYP for $771.03 airfare. I think it's fair to say that most domestic flights are under $771.

Citi Forward 1 - Chase Sapphire Pref 0

2) International business ticket:
It takes 100,000 miles for RT to Europe, which would require $46,728 in spending on Chase Sapphire Pref. Similar spending on Citi Forward would generate enough TYP for $3,112 airfare.

I don't remember a single instance when I paid under $4,000 for business fare to Europe.

Chase Sapphire Pref 1 - Citi Forward 1

3) Hyatt rooms:
Below is the table of points required for particular category room - required spending to generate enough UR points - dollar equivalent of TYP after similar spending:

Cat 1 - 5,000 - $2,336 - $156
Cat 2 - 8,000 - $3,738 - $249
Cat 3 - 12,000 - $5,607 - $373
Cat 4 - 15,000 - $7,009 - $467
Cat 5 - 18,000 - $8,411 - $560
Cat 6 - 22,000 - $10,280 - $685

I would say that with exception of some very expensive Hyatt properties (in Paris, Sydney, Tokyo, maybe Buenos Aires) Citi Forward spending would generate more benefits than Chase Sapphire Pref

Citi Forward 2 - Chase Sapphire 1

Why did you not include the TY bonus as you did with CSP?

jamflyer, not quite following your question...

I know this is a bit petty but remember that you'd need thank you premier which is $30 more a year then sapphire pref. So if you only redeem awards once a year you may want to add that $30 into the valuation.

Then again you can earn elite miles on thank you if that matters to you along with regular miles and you don't need to wait for awards. Thank you is starting to interest me more and more. Maybe my next test is getting into thank you points.

jamflyer, not quite following your question...

The TY premier gets a percentage bonus annually just like the CSP. Just not as much.

What type of points do you value more: TYP or UR points?

I personally value UR points more, but that's just me.

What type of points do you value more: TYP or UR points?

I personally value UR points more, but that's just me.

UR points by a solid amount in my book, BUT, TY points are substantially easier to get, especially with a banking relationship. My girlfriend and I combine for around 6K points a month with under $800 combined spend.

UR points we might be able to pull in half that with similar spend.

jamflyer, not quite following your question...

The TY premier gets a percentage bonus annually just like the CSP. Just not as much.

Correct. - but since I have had this card for a while I get 5% bonus. All the analyses I see trumpet the CSP bonus but not TYP's.

What type of points do you value more: TYP or UR points?

I personally value UR points more, but that's just me.

I like the flexibility and unique advantages of each.

The TY premier gets a percentage bonus annually just like the CSP. Just not as much.

The discussion is about using Citi Forward at restaurants. TY Premier's annual bonus has nothing to do with TYPs earned with the Forward card.

The discussion is about using Citi Forward at restaurants. TY Premier's annual bonus has nothing to do with TYPs earned with the Forward card.

Agree because Forward does not have annual bonus, only Premier has, right?

However, if one also has the Premier, the TYPs from Forward then can be used to redeem for Air Fares that would give you higher discount than the UR pts should you use the UR pts for that purpose.

Overall, the transferability of UR pts thus gives it a higher value when it is in the form of UA miles / Hyatt points, is somewhat balanced by the twice earning rate the Forward card has.

Completely forgot about TYP bonus. From what I understand it is only applicable to points earned with Premier card, not overall TYP balance...

Agree because Forward does not have annual bonus, only Premier has, right?

However, if one also has the Premier, the TYPs from Forward then can be used to redeem for Air Fares that would give you higher discount than the UR pts should you use the UR pts for that purpose.

Overall, the transferability of UR pts thus gives it a higher value when it is in the form of UA miles / Hyatt points, is somewhat balanced by the twice earning rate the Forward card has.

But that's exactly the point I am trying to figure out. Does transferability of UR points makes them more valuable even though the earn rate on CSP is lower?

I have mixed feelings on this one.

The discussion is about using Citi Forward at restaurants. TY Premier's annual bonus has nothing to do with TYPs earned with the Forward card.

The OP referred to the 33% bonus/ 25% discount which is available only with the TY AF cards (Premier and higher).

But that's exactly the point I am trying to figure out. Does transferability of UR points makes them more valuable even though the earn rate on CSP is lower?

I have mixed feelings on this one.

By the same token, to have 1.33 TYP redemption advantage on air travel, you'd have to keep Premier card open ($125/yr after 1st yr) at the time of redemption where earning rate on Premier card itself isn't as great.

With Sapphire Preferred, the annual fee is a bit lower and the 2X earning also applies to all travel (including commuter transportation, taxi cab etc). If you only count restrauant spend, as another poster already pointed out, the no fee Chase Freedom currently has 5X earning on restranuant spend (July - Sept 2012). You can also pool all UR points to transfer out to UA/Hyatt as long as you have Sapphire Preferred or Ink blod/plus cards.

If you are willing to pay annual fees on both the Premier and Sapphire Preferred cards, its fine to put restrauant spend on either Forward or Sapphire Preferred (depends on your redemption pattern); but if you don't have large enough spend on restrauant or you don't want pay both sets of annual fees then keeping Sapphire Preferred is likely better because of the greater overall earning potential on UR points from all spend and UR shopping portal.

If you are willing to pay annual fees on both the Premier and Sapphire Preferred cards, its fine to put restrauant spend on either Forward or Sapphire Preferred (depends on your redemption pattern); but if you don't have large enough spend on restrauant or you don't want pay both sets of annual fees then keeping Sapphire Preferred is likely better because of the greater overall earning potential on UR points from all spend and UR shopping portal.

I'd be willing to pay the annual fee on the CSP, because of the ability to transfer points, among other features.

The Premier card's annual fee would also be worthwhile to me, for two reasons: 1) the companion ticket / 15% discount / flight points, and 2) I earn 60K+ TY points every year, and if I redeem for airfare, the 1.33 boost turns that from $600 to $798, more than offsetting the $125.

I'd be willing to pay the annual fee on the CSP, because of the ability to transfer points, among other features.

The Premier card's annual fee would also be worthwhile to me, for two reasons: 1) the companion ticket / 15% discount / flight points, and 2) I earn 60K+ TY points every year, and if I redeem for airfare, the 1.33 boost turns that from $600 to $798, more than offsetting the $125.

With the 50K sign up bonus on CSP one, but not necessarily the best, way of looking at it is I am being paid to use the card for several years. CSP has better perks and more flexible rewards, but Citi Forward's TYPs can play a useful role as long as you can redeem at the higher Preferred mill rate. I generally separate out rewards from perks as some awesome rewards cards have few perks while som cards with great rewards (e.g., Amex Platinum) have meager rewards.

Have anyone had any success getting AF waived for Premier card?

Personally, I would get Citi Premier card for signup bonus and/or any upcoming TYP redemptions and then downgrade it to Preferred card. I will keep CSP card for international travel, UR mall, and random non-indexed spending.

I can generate 60-75K TYP or 24-30K UR per year from restaurant spending, so this is important strategic decision for me.


5 UR points from Freedom card is awesome. But isn't it limited to $1500/Q?
As someone mentioned, Citi AA is offering 3 AA/$1 up to $1250 until 9/30

Have anyone had any success getting AF waived for Premier card?


Nope, can't really get that waived beyond the 1st year. Retention offers are shoddy at best on this card. If you use TYPs, earn a lot, and use the companion ticket, this card is more than worth its annual fee. If you pull in 75K TY points a year, but cancel the Premier card, those points are worth $750. If you keep the premier card, they're $997, assuming you redeem them for airfare. That's not even counting flight points or the companion ticket as benefits.

Nope, can't really get that waived beyond the 1st year. Retention offers are shoddy at best on this card. If you use TYPs, earn a lot, and use the companion ticket, this card is more than worth its annual fee. If you pull in 75K TY points a year, but cancel the Premier card, those points are worth $750. If you keep the premier card, they're $997, assuming you redeem them for airfare. That's not even counting flight points or the companion ticket as benefits.

Companion ticket is not a great benefit because prices for 1st ticket can be up to 2x regular prices.:td:

Companion ticket is not a great benefit because prices for 1st ticket can be up to 2x regular prices.:td:

YMMV, obviously, but even with Citi's markup on the base ticket, I saved well over $200 the last time I used it when all was said and done

I have the CSP, the Citi Forward (from an older mtvU card), and Chase Freedom.

Right now, I'm using Freedom, since 5.1x + 10 UR beats 5x TYP. I don't think I'll reach the $1500 limit until the end of the quarter.

In other quarters, for smaller things (like a $2-$3 item), I'll still use the Freedom, since that's 12-13 points.

It's where it gets to $10 or more where I have to make the decision ... ~20 UR or ~50 TYP. While I value UR more than TYP, I do have a cache of a few thousand TYP which may come in useful down the road. For bills like $50, we're talking about 250 TYP vs. ~100 UR. At those values, I'd be more likely to take the TYP. However, those won't be redeemed until I get a Premier card where I can get more value/point.

(The only reason I have the CSP is to "activate" the UR points). Don't have an Ink card yet, but I will soon and will downgrade that after the 1st year to the free version.

5 UR points from Freedom card is awesome. But isn't it limited to $1500/Q?

Yes, the limit is up to $1500/quarter for each Freedom card. I have 2 Freedom cards under my name and was able to "spend" 2*1500 at grocery stores in last quarter :p Some people have taken earning UR points to another level, via gift cards/reload cards purchased thru INK Bold, but one needs to be willing to take on the risk and exercise self-control to not pushing the limit.

Another possibility could be that you alternate having/paying Premier card and Chase Sapphire Preferred for a given year or across several years. You can continue to accumulate TYP and UR at the same time, but time your card application/recycle at meaningful redemption cut points and/or when the banks offer big sign-on bonuses. Moreover, if you have a spouse or significant other, have her/him sign-up for Forward, Freedom and/or the no fee Sapphire card (which also earns 2X for dinning btw), then alternate between 2 people to pool TYP or UR points to redeem in favorable conditions. In a way its separating the accumulation phase from redemption phase, could be a useful approach in some situations.

If paired with the Freedom with 3/12 months giving 5x points and 9/12 months giving 2x points, it averages out to close to 3 points per $. This assumes up don't spend more than $1,500 on restaurants in 3 months and that you restaurant spending stays fairly consistent throughout the year.

So you can still decide what's best for you, but I would use the higher return for Ultimate Rewards to calculate.

Some people have taken earning UR points to another level, via gift cards/reload cards purchased thru INK Bold, but one needs to be willing to take on the risk and exercise self-control to not pushing the limit.


Hi, my name is BigRedBears. I am one of those people took earning UR points via Ink Bold to another level :D

If paired with the Freedom with 3/12 months giving 5x points and 9/12 months giving 2x points, it averages out to close to 3 points per $. This assumes up don't spend more than $1,500 on restaurants in 3 months and that you restaurant spending stays fairly consistent throughout the year.

So you can still decide what's best for you, but I would use the higher return for Ultimate Rewards to calculate.

Averaging isn't the way to look at this, I think. No one is forcing you to use the Sapphire Preferred for 9 months if you use the Freedom for 3 months. They are mutually exclusive.

Would you rather have 2.14x UR or 5x TYP? At $4500 over 9 months, that's either 22,500 TYP or 9,630 UR (in addition to the ~8,000 UR you'd earn from $1500 on the Freedom).

If you value UR points as much as I do, I will make the effort to go buy gift cards to frequent restaurants either with my Bold card (from staples or office depot) or my freedom card (depending on the category). I'll use my freedom card at grocery stores, gas stations, or even home improvement stores to buy restaurant gift cards that I know I will eat at. I never get less than 5 points at my favorite restaurants.

I think the US Bank Cash + is actually a better choice.

you can select Restaurant as your 5% Category + US Bank Gold Checking bonus 0.25% ( no fee with $500/mo DD ) = 5.25%

+ $25 redemption bonus when redeem at $100 level.

= 6.5625% Cashback

+ No annual fee.

I think the US Bank Cash + is actually a better choice.

you can select Restaurant as your 5% Category + US Bank Gold Checking bonus 0.25% ( no fee with $500/mo DD ) = 5.25%

+ $25 redemption bonus when redeem at $100 level.

= 6.5625% Cashback

+ No annual fee.

This might be very interesting and not only for restaurant spending.

Is there a list of all categories you can select? Can we select "restaurants" as your 5% category every quarter?

This might be very interesting and not only for restaurant spending.

Is there a list of all categories you can select? Can we select "restaurants" as your 5% category every quarter?

Lengthy discussion here:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1197402/

I'm thinking about signing up for the citi forward card for the 5x restaurant and amazon earn only. I primarily use chase sapphire preferred (and eventually will incorporate freedom for the chase triple threat) as I value UR points the most.

I don't have citi premier (although maybe I'll look into this for a later cycle)

My question to everyone here is does this sound like an ok strategy ( citi fwd for restaurants/amazon, chase csp for everything else--at least until i get more diversified) I spend $500-$800 a month on restaurants usually, so if i start to rack up some TY points, are there decent redemption options? Could I get 1:1 cash back for any number of points? Are there travel redemption options without a citi premier?

Thanks in advance!

I'm thinking about signing up for the citi forward card for the 5x restaurant and amazon earn only. I primarily use chase sapphire preferred (and eventually will incorporate freedom for the chase triple threat) as I value UR points the most.

I don't have citi premier (although maybe I'll look into this for a later cycle)

My question to everyone here is does this sound like an ok strategy ( citi fwd for restaurants/amazon, chase csp for everything else--at least until i get more diversified) I spend $500-$800 a month on restaurants usually, so if i start to rack up some TY points, are there decent redemption options? Could I get 1:1 cash back for any number of points? Are there travel redemption options without a citi premier?

Thanks in advance!

You can get 1:1 redemption for travel without Premier.
You can also get a number of $100 gift cards at 1:1

I'm thinking about signing up for the citi forward card for the 5x restaurant and amazon earn only. I primarily use chase sapphire preferred (and eventually will incorporate freedom for the chase triple threat) as I value UR points the most.

I don't have citi premier (although maybe I'll look into this for a later cycle)

My question to everyone here is does this sound like an ok strategy ( citi fwd for restaurants/amazon, chase csp for everything else--at least until i get more diversified) I spend $500-$800 a month on restaurants usually, so if i start to rack up some TY points, are there decent redemption options? Could I get 1:1 cash back for any number of points? Are there travel redemption options without a citi premier?

Thanks in advance!

You cannot get 1:1 on cash, I think it's 1.6:1. But, most gift cards have 1:1 redemption. Sometimes, even better (1.1:1 / 9K points for $100). That is a good strategy IMO. While I value UR points higher than TY points, I'll take 5x/$1 over 2x with CSP any day. With your spend, that's 2500-4000 TY points a month, or 30k-50k per year. The forward makes TY points crazy easy to earn.

Anyone know if buying a Kindle gets the 5x TYP? I've seen direct from Amazon = yes and marketplace/AP = no so I assume the answer is yes, but just wanted to double check.