United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - UA vs. LH - Biz vs. First

I'm looking to take my family to England next year using award miles and am ready to book if something comes up that works for my schedule. I have enough miles for First both ways for all travelers using Saver award miles provided there is availability, but would be ok with most other options other than economy both ways (would really prefer First or Business outbound to arrive a bit more rested).

Looks like some current options outbound are:
1. UA Business on a 777 IAD-LHR
2. LH Business on a A330 via Frankfurt

Is one of these options vastly superior? Or should I keep waiting for the possibility of First on either UA or LH.

I flew UA First to LHR about 7 years ago and really appreciated the expedited customs and the arrival lounge to take a shower, so am leaning towards waiting on UA First, but maybe someone would say that is a long-shot and advise otherwise.

Thanks!

Cheers,
HalfSwede

I don't think any FRA-based A330s have the new business class cabin yet, so in my view UA is a winner in C based on seat. There are those who object to UA's 2-4-2 arrangement aboard the 3-cabin 777, but I will take flat over angled any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, especially for an overnight transatlantic leg. On a daylight trip, food, beverage, connectivity and entertainment are more important for me, so LH becomes more competitive in that regard.

LH First is miles ahead of United in almost all measures, but you probably won't find O inventory until <2 weeks from your flight, despite what united.com tries to tell (or sell) you! :) I don't think East Coast-EU is a good value for F awards, but if you choose to go that route, book a UA flight as a placeholder and make change closer-in when Lufthansa availability is better. Also, consider a C out/F return combined award for better value and inflight experience.

I don't think any FRA-based A330s have the new business class cabin yet, so in my view UA is a winner in C based on seat. There are those who object to UA's 2-4-2 arrangement aboard the 3-cabin 777, but I will take flat over angled any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, especially for an overnight transatlantic leg. On a daylight trip, food, beverage, connectivity and entertainment become more important for me, so LH becomes more competitive in that regard.

LH First is miles ahead of United in almost all measures, but you probably won't find O inventory until <2 weeks from your flight, despite what united.com tries to tell (or sell) you! :) I don't think East Coast-EU is a good value for F awards, but if you choose to go that route, book a UA flight as a placeholder and make change closer-in when availability is better.

Excellent advice. LH F > UA F > UA C > LH C. The one caveat is that LH C beats UA old C, but I believe it is all UA new C on the IAD-LHR route or at least that it will be by next year.

I don't think East Coast-EU is a good value for F awards, but if you choose to go that route, book a UA flight as a placeholder and make change closer-in when Lufthansa availability is better.

If I book UA flight now as a "placholder" and change to LH F, will there by any kind of change fee? Does that fact that UA IAD-LHR becomes LH IAD-FRA-LHR make any difference?

Similarly, if I book UA C now as a "placeholder" IAD-LHR, will there by any kind of change fee if I 'upgrade' to UA F?

Thanks for the reply!

Cheers,
HalfSwede

No fees for plat and higher.

For the last few months late afternoon IAD-FRA (LH419) has been operated by the brand new 748i with new F and new C seats 5/6 times a week. IAD-MUC has been operated by one of the A333s with new C most days.

However, next summer's schedule is not yet certain as it might depend on the delivery schedule of more 748i since LH is planning to fly the 748i to India and LAX as well.

United C is just so much better than LH C.

UA has lie flat beds , better food and wine.

I prefer the UA staff vs those of LH as well.

If only UA would stop all of their useless announcements over the PA system!

If I book UA flight now as a "placholder" and change to LH F, will there by any kind of change fee? Does that fact that UA IAD-LHR becomes LH IAD-FRA-LHR make any difference?

Similarly, if I book UA C now as a "placeholder" IAD-LHR, will there by any kind of change fee if I 'upgrade' to UA F?

Thanks for the reply!

Cheers,
HalfSwede

The fee schedule for award changes, redeposits, reissues, etc. can be found here (http://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/mileageplus/awards/travel/ticketing.aspx). In general, it will be based on your status. Keep in mind that most actual LH F inventory is released inside of 14 days prior to departure, so that may inform your expectations as to planning for fees.

I don't actually lie flat in a bed, not fully reclined, when i sleep so prefer LH. I prefer the LH food, service and plane layout.

Excellent advice. LH F > UA FI haven't been on UA F, but I will say that LH's old F seats are terrible for an overnight flight. On that basis, I would consider UA F over LH F depending on whether you knew what configuration you'd get on LH.

I haven't been on UA F, but I will say that LH's old F seats are terrible for an overnight flight. On that basis, I would consider UA F over LH F depending on whether you knew what configuration you'd get on LH.

The new UA F suite has two advantages over the previous generation LH First Class seat: bed comfort (though I do not find old LH F to be terrible for sleeping) and entertainment.

In all other regards LH does a much better job, in my estimation. Aboard a reconfigured A330/340/744 or new 74H/A380, LH F is dramatically better.

Check the reviews of the new catering - I have *zero* complaints with their product, minus occasionally indifferent crews.

That being said, the LHR based crews are my hands-down favorite in the network.

Cheers,
Adam

United C is just so much better than LH C.

UA has lie flat beds , better food and wine.

I prefer the UA staff vs those of LH as well.

If only UA would stop all of their useless announcements over the PA system!

New LH C > new UA C though....

New LH C > new UA C though....
No. They are the same hard stools they have on all their birds. Just on the 748, they let it recline more.

The Airbus will have the old seats or a long time to come.

LH Biz food is worse than UA C food IMO but that is a matter of taste.

For the few minutes ride from IAD to LHR, I would not book F, no matter how cheap it is. I can hardly be regarded as a proper 'overnight' flight.

On such a short flight, go C. However, definitely go UA C, as LH C is garbage.

This.

Just returned last night on LH C FRA - PHL and it was crap. Service and food were good - seat is awful
On such a short flight, go C. However, definitely go UA C, as LH C is garbage.

No. They are the same hard stools they have on all their birds. Just on the 748, they let it recline more.
Really? So they covered the old blue material with grey, arranged them in reverse v-shape and let them recline a bit futher?

Of course I've only seen photographs and read comments by people who've flown on one of those birds which claim to come with the new C. There are two 748s and 3 A333s with these seats so far by the way.

UA C > LH C for the seat; which is all that really matters on the overnight.

F is a wonderful experience on LH, but more wonderful ex-FRA with the excellent ground product and not wanting to rush through dinner to sleep.

The new UA F suite has two advantages over the previous generation LH First Class seat: bed comfort (though I do not find old LH F to be terrible for sleeping) and entertainment.

In all other regards LH does a much better job, in my estimation. Aboard a reconfigured A330/340/744 or new 74H/A380, LH F is dramatically better.
Oh, yes, based on what I've read about UA F (and what I've experienced on its closest peer, AA F), I'd say that the LH soft product in F is much better than UA.

But the LH old F hard product is awful. I do not find it comfortable to sleep on; on 2 of my 3 flights in that product the seats didn't even go fully flat (apparently a tech issue), and heaven forbid you're traveling alone and get stuck in a center seat where you're practically on top of your seatmate. For a day flight, it'd be fine though (except for the center seat issue).

My concern about the new LH C seat is the very small foot partition between oneself and his/her seatmate and the shared footrest. From the pictures I have seen of it, the partition looks thin and flimsy. I'd be concerned about ending up inadvertently playing footsy with said seatmate.

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/themen/new-business-class

But the LH old F hard product is awful. I do not find it comfortable to sleep on; on 2 of my 3 flights in that product the seats didn't even go fully flat (apparently a tech issue), and heaven forbid you're traveling alone and get stuck in a center seat where you're practically on top of your seatmate. For a day flight, it'd be fine though (except for the center seat issue).

What are you referring to with 'center seat issue' in LH F? All LH F have direct aisle access, there is no middle seat :confused:

Back on topic, based on my experience LH F (new and old) is superior than UA F.

Excellent advice. LH F > UA F > UA C > LH C. The one caveat is that LH C beats UA old C, but I believe it is all UA new C on the IAD-LHR route or at least that it will be by next year.

Basically agree, although I would rank UA F above old LH F primarily because of better seat comfort especially if you're doing a red-eye. New LH F is miles ahead of UA. Also in some U.S. airports, check-in, TSA and boarding are not great when flying LH F.

What are you referring to with 'center seat issue' in LH F? All LH F have direct aisle access, there is no middle seat :confused:
I never once said "middle" seat. I am referring to the two seats in the center of the aircraft, in the 1-2-1 configuration. They are very close to one another; minimal privacy for an F product.

You will be touching elbows:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufthansa/Airbus-A340-642/2002759/

And in the sleeping position, you may very well be staring in your seatmate's face (or he in yours). This is from a 744 across the aisle on the upper deck. You can see how the seat doesn't go fully flat (as I mentioned this seems to be a technical issue, but is alarmingly common), and the privacy screen doesn't screen anything.

http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy350/ijgordon/Aircraft%20Interiors/IMG_1785.jpg

So, I have a related question - am looking to fly NYC - CPH, currently I have two options.
UA F through BRU, or LH C (748i) through IAD and FRA.
I'm torn - UA is only one stop, in F, overnight, bigger seats etc. LH is new C, which is fun, but longer trip, is the soft product that much better on LH?
Thanks

So, I have a related question - am looking to fly NYC - CPH, currently I have two options.
UA F through BRU, or LH C (748i) through IAD and FRA.
I'm torn - UA is only one stop, in F, overnight, bigger seats etc. LH is new C, which is fun, but longer trip, is the soft product that much better on LH?
Thanks

Avoiding a 2nd stop-over, esp IAD, should be a priority! (and FRA's not fun either) Given these choices, there's really no contest: UA F, meaning the new UA F (not the old F still out there on some 777's), is great! The seat is huge and comfortable, lots of storage space and privacy. The service is generally good, occasionally great, and once in a blue-moon poor. They have improved the food a lot in my opinion, since June 1.

I never once said "middle" seat. I am referring to the two seats in the center of the aircraft, in the 1-2-1 configuration. They are very close to one another; minimal privacy for an F product.

You will be touching elbows:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufthansa/Airbus-A340-642/2002759/

And in the sleeping position, you may very well be staring in your seatmate's face (or he in yours). This is from a 744 across the aisle on the upper deck. You can see how the seat doesn't go fully flat (as I mentioned this seems to be a technical issue, but is alarmingly common), and the privacy screen doesn't screen anything.

http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy350/ijgordon/Aircraft%20Interiors/IMG_1785.jpg

I know you did not mention 'middle seat', but I just do not understand why you would be 'on top of your seatmate' on someone sitting next to you :(

All I am saying is I have experienced LH F and I find it superior to UA F, and my seat was fully flat. But great, you prefer UA, then fly them on F.

Just as a note to OP:
Wait and see if LX C opens up, or even better if LX/LH F open up, definitely the better options. In my experience LX C> UA C> LH C

Haven't flown LH new C, but sounds better than UA C, especially considering you get to go on the brand-spanking-new 747-8i.

From what I've read, definitely take LX/LH F if you can, although as mentioned, LH F could go bad if you get old F.

Cheers

I just flew LH C IAH-FRA in May, and I did not like it at all (I assume it's the old product). It was one of the most uncomfortable seats I've had, even just for sitting in. Maybe it's because I'm short, but it just hit me in all the wrong places. I couldn't find a comfortable position. Also, it was the angled lie flat, which affected my sleep a lot more than I thought it would. Service and food weren't that great either, even though I normally like LH service.

I flew UA C LHR-IAH returning, and thought it was awesome - both the hard and soft product. I've never flown F, so I can't compare to that, but it was the best service I've ever had on a plane.

Really? So they covered the old blue material with grey, arranged them in reverse v-shape and let them recline a bit futher?
Yes I agree that they are not physically the same seat as on the older planes and the arrangement is indeed nicer.
But they are still the same narrow stretchers, you still have to climb over your neighbors at the window seats ... so still a long, long shot from anything EK or SQ have on the newer - i.e. 5 to 7 year old - birds.
..There are two 748s and 3 A333s with these seats so far by the way.
The insanely long conversion periods for the new F and the new C were circulated in the LH fora ... it for once is not my speculation.

Yes I agree that they are not physically the same seat as on the older planes and the arrangement is indeed nicer.
But they are still the same narrow stretchers, you still have to climb over your neighbors at the window seats ... so still a long, long shot from anything EK or SQ have on the newer - i.e. 5 to 7 year old - birds.



Agreed, but we are comparing LH to UA not to EK or SQ in this thread.

My thoughts -

Hard product

New LH F > UA F > Old LH F > UA Biz > New LH Biz > Old LH Biz >old UA Biz.

Soft Product

LH F (either version, big time) > UA F (barely beats LH C) > LH Biz > UA Biz

Various Comments:

Old LH F hard product - I found the bed perfectly comfortable, better than the UA bed which I found narrower, because of the sloping sides. I have never encountered the problem which ijgordon refers to of staring into someone else's face. As to the seat not going fully flat, this slight incline, counteracts the angle at which the plane is flying. Inflight entertainment has never meant that much to me, so old LH F smaller screen wasn't a big problem.

New LH C Hard product. In the angled version, there isn't a problem with the foot separator being effective. It may appear flimsy, but it isn't. My problem is that the space that is left for the feet, is just a bit too narrow. it is ok as a food rest, but not good for sleeping.

Soft Product -

Unlike, some, I find UA's food mediocre and their wines are the basic plonk which are served in chain restaurants, no matter what the class of service. Occasionally, I feel that way about LH C, but am, more often than not satisfied.

Service levels on LH are consistently better than UA. Very rarely, you will get a great UA F crew, but most are just going through the motions. In LH it is the reverse - very rarely you will get an LH crew that is going through the motions, but most of the time, they are really on top of their game.

Agreed, but we are comparing LH to UA not to EK or SQ in this thread.

My thoughts -

Hard product

New LH F > UA F > Old LH F > UA Biz > New LH Biz > Old LH Biz >old UA Biz.

Soft Product

LH F (either version, big time) > UA F (barely beats LH C) > LH Biz > UA Biz

Various Comments:

Old LH F hard product - I found the bed perfectly comfortable, better than the UA bed which I found narrower, because of the sloping sides. I have never encountered the problem which ijgordon refers to of staring into someone else's face. As to the seat not going fully flat, this slight incline, counteracts the angle at which the plane is flying. Inflight entertainment has never meant that much to me, so old LH F smaller screen wasn't a big problem.

New LH C Hard product. In the angled version, there isn't a problem with the foot separator being effective. It may appear flimsy, but it isn't. My problem is that the space that is left for the feet, is just a bit too narrow. it is ok as a food rest, but not good for sleeping.

Soft Product -

Unlike, some, I find UA's food mediocre and their wines are the basic plonk which are served in chain restaurants, no matter what the class of service. Occasionally, I feel that way about LH C, but am, more often than not satisfied.

Service levels on LH are consistently better than UA. Very rarely, you will get a great UA F crew, but most are just going through the motions. In LH it is the reverse - very rarely you will get an LH crew that is going through the motions, but most of the time, they are really on top of their game.

+1 Spot on!!

I know you did not mention 'middle seat', but I just do not understand why you would be 'on top of your seatmate' on someone sitting next to you :(I said "practically on top of your seatmate" which is different from "literally" on top of your seatmate. "On top of" is also an American idiom that in common usage means, simply, "really close." Ugh.

The other thing worth mentioning about the old LH F seat is that it bounces a lot in turbulence when fully reclined. The seat back, in "full" recline (if you should be so lucky -- the poor chap in my picture above clearly isn't just slightly inclined to counter the nose-up attitude of the aircraft) isn't resting on anything. The newer "suite" style seats on almost all airlines are a lot more solid.

I said "practically on top of your seatmate" which is different from "literally" on top of your seatmte. "On top of" is also an American idiom that in common usage means, simply, "really close." Ugh.

The other thing worth mentioning about the old LH F seat is that it bounces a lot in turbulence when fully reclined. The seat back, in "full" recline (if you should be so lucky -- the poor chap in my picture above clearly isn't just slightly inclined to counter the nose-up attitude of the aircraft) isn't resting on anything. The newer "suite" style seats on almost all airlines are a lot more solid.

I know the differece between literally and practically, so we agree to disagree. Happy flying on UA F, I'll stick to LH F (either new or old), which is far superior to UA F.

My thoughts -

Hard product

New LH F > UA F > Old LH F > UA Biz > New LH Biz > Old LH Biz >old UA Biz.

Soft Product

LH F (either version, big time) > UA F (barely beats LH C) > LH Biz > UA Biz

Various Comments:

Old LH F hard product - I found the bed perfectly comfortable, better than the UA bed which I found narrower, because of the sloping sides. I have never encountered the problem which ijgordon refers to of staring into someone else's face. As to the seat not going fully flat, this slight incline, counteracts the angle at which the plane is flying. Inflight entertainment has never meant that much to me, so old LH F smaller screen wasn't a big problem.

Soft Product -

Unlike, some, I find UA's food mediocre and their wines are the basic plonk which are served in chain restaurants, no matter what the class of service. Occasionally, I feel that way about LH C, but am, more often than not satisfied.

Service levels on LH are consistently better than UA.

Could not agree more, +1

Of course I've only seen photographs and read comments by people who've flown on one of those birds which claim to come with the new C. There are two 748s and 3 A333s with these seats so far by the way.

We flew on one of the new A333 IAD-MUC in Jun and old A330 MUC-IAD in Jul. The new F cabin and seats are great, significantly better than the old F. IFE screens are large, like the UA new screens, much nicer than the old F. The new F also has privacy screens that you can raise.

I did not see the new C cabin.

IAD-LHR is one of the shortest TATL flights, so F may not be worth it. However, I would fly IAD-FRA-LHR on the new LH F for the in flight and FRA FCT experiences.

I know the differece between literally and practically, so we agree to disagree. Happy flying on UA F, I'll stick to LH F (either new or old), which is far superior to UA F.Well, I may not be "happy" but I'd certainly be more comfortable.

Could not agree more, +1Wait, now you are agreeing that the UA F hard product is > than the Old LH F hard product? :confused:

So, I have a related question - am looking to fly NYC - CPH, currently I have two options.
UA F through BRU, or LH C (748i) through IAD and FRA.
I'm torn - UA is only one stop, in F, overnight, bigger seats etc. LH is new C, which is fun, but longer trip, is the soft product that much better on LH?
Thanks

Avoiding a 2nd stop-over, esp IAD, should be a priority! (and FRA's not fun either) Given these choices, there's really no contest: UA F, meaning the new UA F (not the old F still out there on some 777's), is great! The seat is huge and comfortable, lots of storage space and privacy. The service is generally good, occasionally great, and once in a blue-moon poor. They have improved the food a lot in my opinion, since June 1.

Definitely agree, but I'd even take old UA F over new LH C for the far superior seat, privacy and roominess. Also, LH C service is nothing special; the LH service only shines in F.

Plus, as noted, one connection beats two, and those connections are especially lousy transit points, especially FRA.

Agreed, but we are comparing LH to UA not to EK or SQ in this thread.

My thoughts -

Hard product

New LH F > UA F > Old LH F > UA Biz > New LH Biz > Old LH Biz >old UA Biz.

Soft Product

LH F (either version, big time) > UA F (barely beats LH C) > LH Biz > UA Biz

Various Comments:

Old LH F hard product - I found the bed perfectly comfortable, better than the UA bed which I found narrower, because of the sloping sides. I have never encountered the problem which ijgordon refers to of staring into someone else's face. As to the seat not going fully flat, this slight incline, counteracts the angle at which the plane is flying. Inflight entertainment has never meant that much to me, so old LH F smaller screen wasn't a big problem.

New LH C Hard product. In the angled version, there isn't a problem with the foot separator being effective. It may appear flimsy, but it isn't. My problem is that the space that is left for the feet, is just a bit too narrow. it is ok as a food rest, but not good for sleeping.

Soft Product -

Unlike, some, I find UA's food mediocre and their wines are the basic plonk which are served in chain restaurants, no matter what the class of service. Occasionally, I feel that way about LH C, but am, more often than not satisfied.

Service levels on LH are consistently better than UA. Very rarely, you will get a great UA F crew, but most are just going through the motions. In LH it is the reverse - very rarely you will get an LH crew that is going through the motions, but most of the time, they are really on top of their game.

Very nice summary! And thanks for the info about LH new C and the foot separator, which sounds not as bad as some write-ups at the LH forum originally depicted it.

I'd differ in a couple of minor respects:

While LH C service is ok and more uniform than UA, IME it's nothing special.

For a couple in F, I'd even take old LH F over new UA F for the far superior service, better food and access to the great LH F lounges in Germany, even though the UA F hard product is better.

..New LH F > UA F > Old LH F > UA Biz > New LH Biz > Old LH Biz >old UA Biz..
I for one like both LH F products better than both UA F products (which I find remarkably similar btw and both too hard to sleep on for my quirks).

I have not been in the new LH C and hence have no idea where to sort it.

I'd differ in a couple of minor respects:

While LH C service is ok and more uniform than UA, IME it's nothing special.

For a couple in F, I'd even take old LH F over new UA F for the far superior service, better food and access to the great LH F lounges in Germany, even though the UA F hard product is better.

I don't think that we differ even as much as it might have appeared in the posts, as I pretty much agree with both these comments. LH C service isn't anything special, because its design is clearly a C service, without the added touches that you will find on some Middle Eastern and Asian airlines. However, I find the execution of the service is almost always quite well. When I walk on the plane, there is someone who will take my jacket and hang it up. Staff just seem to take their job professionally.

I agree with you completely regarding LH F, and that is just considering the onboard product. when you add in the lounges in Munich and especially the Frankfurt First-Class Terminal with its oh-so easy security and top-quality food and drink, LH F is a no-brainer.

I have an upcoming award flight from MSY to GVA, currently routed through UA in Global First: MSY-EWR-GVA with an almost 8hr layover in EWR. Found an option to go MSY-CLT-MUC-GVA with MSY-CLT on US and CLT-MUC in LH F on an A330. Having never experienced either International First products I could use the helpful advice of Flyertalkers. Thanks in advance.


It appears based on EF that it's the NEW LH First on CLT-MUC my flight date.

I flew UA C LHR-IAH returning, and thought it was awesome - both the hard and soft product. I've never flown F, so I can't compare to that, but it was the best service I've ever had on a plane. Well you clearly have not been on enough planes....

Recently flew UA Biz (new product) 777 overnight and LH Biz (new product) 748 returning.

IMO service on LH was far superior, as was the food. I never expect the in-flight food to rival anything I will eat in a restaurant at my destination, but the LH 1st course was excellent. UAs salad was the best part of the meal for me, as usual. The LH main course was certainly not gourmet but more edible than UA's tough beef. I also prefer the option of a cheese course or other dessert to the ever-present UA ice cream. LH breads are excellent with a wide variety of choices. The German chocolate offered at the end of the flight was a nice gesture as well.

I think the new seats on the two airlines are comparable in C. I did not find the foot divider flimsy either and would admit the foot well space is a bit tight, but sleeping on my side it was not a problem. The narrow foot well was balanced by being able to drop the wall armrest to increase seat width, as well as the private feel of the 748 upper deck and the seat storage areas (where there is no seat storage around the new UA C seat).

The 748 also offers the option of not having to step over someone fully reclined at all if choosing to sit downstairs in the middle of the aircraft. Those seats also have larger footwell areas and larger divider space between them.

As for old LH C, I pretty much avoid it as the seats are no better than USAirways Envoy. The service does not make up for the hard product IMO.

In F, the new LH F hard product now matches their great service and food service. The movable ottoman is great for relaxing and provides a large space for storage. If going through FRA, the FCT almost makes old LH F worth it over any UA alternative.

I realize service can be hit or miss. However, I have never had a bad experience on LH C or F. I only occasionally find great service on UA (F or C). As an example, it took 4-5 requests over several hours on UA to address my IFE which froze up about 90 minutes into the flight. The first request was toward the end of meal service. I get it, bad timing to do anything. However, the next few hours were repeated trips to the galley (where the FAs were all chatting) to ask someone for help. They reset the system, mentioned the purser was aware, and that was it. Only with 2 hours left in the flight was I offered a different seat. In contrast, LH service staff have always taken ownership of a problem for me until it is fully-addressed either way. They also seem much more available, passing through the cabin throughout the flight rather than spending most of it chatting with their colleagues and non-revs.

Well you clearly have not been on enough planes....

Or maybe I just happened to get a flight that had very good service from my perspective. The FA was very friendly without being overbearing, and always around when I needed something. Unless you were on the same flight, I don't see how you can disagree. I may not fly as much as other people, but I don't see how that invalidates my opinion.

People are referring to old and new LH products.

Is the old LH F on everything BUT the A333, A380 and 748i? Are conversions happening?


Thank you,

M59

People are referring to old and new LH products.

Is the old LH F on everything BUT the A333, A380 and 748i? Are conversions happening?


Thank you,

M59

There is a whole thread dedicated to this in the LH forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/1318664-new-first-class-retrofit-thread.html

C/J on LH A330 is horrid. The seat is slanted and doesn't even have the standard headphone jack - you are forced to use the crappy LH headphones (without noise cancellation) that come with the seat and that are covered with all the germs - and probably earwax - from all the pax who used them before you. Oh, and to make things worse, FAs don't know whether the seat has standard jacks and where the existing jacks are - you have to look for the concealed jacks and headphones yourself.

UA new BF is much much better.

Excellent advice. LH F > UA F > UA C > LH C. The one caveat is that LH C beats UA old C, but I believe it is all UA new C on the IAD-LHR route or at least that it will be by next year.

+1

Check the reviews of the new catering - I have *zero* complaints with their product, minus occasionally indifferent crews.

That being said, the LHR based crews are my hands-down favorite in the network.


LH crews are professional but I've had excellent crews on UA and BA too. It is luck of the draw. You have to go to Asian-based carriers if you want to see a noticeable difference in the C cabin.

On such a short flight, go C. However, definitely go UA C, as LH C is garbage.

I would not go that far, LH is not "garbage" like old DL and AA seats :) LH is simply inferior in terms of seat comfort and IFE, and IMO no better than UA on food and service. LH also takes forever to bring the meal which is not good on a 7-hour TATL overnight and annoying given the # of personnel. The only area where LH shines is a better beer selection. I guess UA management aren't beer drinkers or get sweet perks from their suppliers, because nobody I know drinks any of those crap beers.

Another consideration is that depending on how many are in your family, you may have a problem with LH opening enough seats in F (generally don't see more than two seats available). So I'd go with a combination of UA F and C if I were you.

Since LH flies various plane configs to/from US, what would be the preferred aircraft in F to/from FRA?

A380 > B748 > B744 > A343/A346/A333

Amongst B744 aircrafts, currently 14 out of 24 planes are fitted with new F. Do only the refurbished planes have the separate seat and bed in F, or do some of the older planes also have separate seat and bed in F?

Is getting an award F seat on a A380 fairly difficult?

+1

LH crews are professional but I've had excellent crews on UA and BA too. It is luck of the draw.


While I agree that it is the luck of the draw, I find that I 'get lucky' far more often on LH and BA than on UA, which suggests that the overall percentage of well-trained, motivated crew is higher on LH and BA than UA.

Since LH flies various plane configs to/from US, what would be the preferred aircraft in F to/from FRA?

A380 > B748 > B744 > A343/A346/A333

Amongst B744 aircrafts, currently 14 out of 24 planes are fitted with new F. Do only the refurbished planes have the separate seat and bed in F, or do some of the older planes also have separate seat and bed in F?

Is getting an award F seat on a A380 fairly difficult?

The old 744 have 16 seats, but only 8 are sold. So in essence, the seat next to you will be a fully dedicated bed. FAs will usually make the bed after dinner service (unless you request otherwise), but I think it's specially nice when travelling with someone else, you can both have dinner together.

Only negative (IMO) about old 744 are IFE, which is not that great.

The old 744 have 16 seats, but only 8 are sold. So in essence, the seat next to you will be a fully dedicated bed. FAs will usually make the bed after dinner service (unless you request otherwise), but I think it's specially nice when travelling with someone else, you can both have dinner together.

Only negative (IMO) about old 744 are IFE, which is not that great.

Thank you for the clarification. I suppose that means the refurbished 744's don't have a dedicated bed next to the seat.

I'm trying to see if I can get an award F on an A380 or B748 and will track 2 weeks out, what the F seat availabilities are like.

Thank you for the clarification. I suppose that means the refurbished 744's don't have a dedicated bed next to the seat.


The refurbished 744's do have a dedicated bed next to the seat (with a much better mattress compared to the roll-down one which is placed on the flattened seat in the old config). You lose the ability to dine next to a companion (the bed is fixed and cannot be converted into a seat), but refurbished first on the 744 is probably the best experience within the LF fleet.

Is getting an award F seat on a A380 fairly difficult?

Almost impossible. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

but refurbished first on the 744 is probably the best experience within the LF fleet.

Really? Thanks for the rec, this has helped me greatly in the planning of my award trip to MXP next year.

The refurbished 744's do have a dedicated bed next to the seat (with a much better mattress compared to the roll-down one which is placed on the flattened seat in the old config). You lose the ability to dine next to a companion (the bed is fixed and cannot be converted into a seat), but refurbished first on the 744 is probably the best experience within the LF fleet.

^

Although any LH F (refurb or not) will beat anything US carriers provide. It's going to be a nice experience regardless which bird you take.

Almost impossible. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


The A380 had F seats available the other day, but they only appeared 1 day out.

So I am sitting here and wanted to get peoples opinion. I have seats on AA F in just over 2 weeks and I have been watching availability of LH F and there is a possibility that I can book for my flight to Europe so either JFK-MUC or EWR-MUC. Currently have AA F JFK-LHR. It sounds like with the chance of getting the older LH F on my flight it will be better to stay with the AA F for the night flight.

Coming back I am working on the same thing trying to get LH F on my return. My current return flight is on BA F. I have flown them before and the only thing that could happen is its old BA first but won't know till the day of. I will definitely jump on LH for the return if I can because I will save a fortune on the Fuel surcharge.

So if you do reply please don't tell me that you would never use points on such a short TATL flight because that doesn't help me. I play the points credit card game and get more than enough points to fly 2 times a year with the wife and its going to be in first if I have my way.

Only negative (IMO) about old 744 are IFE, which is not that great.The "only" negative?!? For me, a big negative is the general discomfort of the old LH F seats in bed mode. Many of them don't actually go full flat (I think it's a maintenance thing), the seat back stops about 5-10 degrees short of horizontal. Makes laying on ones stomach a little tricky. Plus the seat backs bounce up and down a bit in turbulence (more than just from the movement of the plane), as they're not fixed on anything.

So I am sitting here and wanted to get peoples opinion.If you can get any of the new LH F seats (guaranteed on 748/380, hit-or-miss on 744/330/340 - see the LH thread linked above for the latest), that would probably be the best choice. The JFK lounge is much better than EWR in terms of preflight dining. But I would probably go with AA F over old LH F for the better seat/bed on a redeye. FWIW, AA's Flagship Lounge preflight dining is probably better than what you get in the SK lounge in EWR (but not nearly as good as the LH Lounge in JFK). AA's on-board catering is pretty decent, but won't be as luxurious as LH.

On the return, again, new LH F over any BA F. Lounge is a bit better, on-board catering is somewhat better, and I think the seat is probably a little better even vs. BA new F. I'd probably lean toward old LH F over BA as well, as this is would be a day flight so the good flat bed isn't as important. But this is a closer call, although the BA fuel surcharge probably tips it toward LH.

As far as I can tell:

IAD-MUC-LHR
Pros:
Departs after 10pm and longer flight, so I'll probably actually sleep
LH F service > UA F service


Cons:
Arrives LHR much later in the day (though my friend is working all day, so it may be tired, aimless time)
~50% more "travel time"
GF is probably a more comfortable hard product from what I can tell
AVOD vs looped (though I have an iPad)


Thoughts? Suggestions? What would you do?

Edit: RE: thread being moved. I saw this thread, but didn't think it applied. Whatever...

Hi,

I have the option to choose between taking an 8 hr overnight flight with either UA in F (777) or Lufthansa in C (new 747-8). The departure and arrival times are almost identical. Say price is fairly irrelevant in this particular case. So it really comes down to carrier and class of service. Any suggestions?

BTW: We're a party of three...

Thanks!

What are the start and end points? Are you *G? Connecting in FRA or MUC? All these variables will make the ground experience slightly different. If you're flying F on UA from SFO, the use of the IFL is a nice touch. Also the lounges open to you in FRA will differ depending on your status...

Status is long gone...
The flight will be HNL-IAD-FRA. First leg is in UA domestic first.
Have canned a HNL-SFO-LHR-FRA flight (ua eco/ua first/ua biz) for that...

F . . .

Status is long gone...
The flight will be HNL-IAD-FRA. First leg is in UA domestic first.
Have canned a HNL-SFO-LHR-FRA flight (ua eco/ua first/ua biz) for that...

Are you saying you canned the SFO-LHR in F (GF) over taking domestic F HNL-IAD? If so, I think we have a difference of opinion on which is more comfortable. But, maybe you had a huge connection time in SFO?

Anyways, I haven't flown the LH 747-8 yet but of course that aircraft has the new C and heard it is similar to UA's C, so I don't think you can go wrong trying it.

Personally, I would take the longest leg in lie-flat and thus this is why I booked my wife and I a OGG-LAX-SFO-FRA (with SFO-FRA in GF and other in domestic F) this coming February. But, I know we all have a different opinion on how we like to fly.

If you go with the LH flight, please let us know what you think of their new C.

Well, the flight HNL-SFO-LHR-FRA was a daytime flight from HNL (at 7:25 am). So I'd be in eco and wide awake for a good part of the morning. That I didn't like so much.

The SFO-LHR in UA F must be superb and I would like this flight very much.

But having about two hours in Lufthansa's economy feel Europe business class on the back end of that flight didn't convince me.

With HNL-IAD-FRA I will have two overnight flights. I hope that I can get some kind of rest on the flight HNL-IAD. If that won't work, then I will have a very good sleep option on the second leg anyways (no matter if I eventually choos LH or UA)

Personally, I would take the longest leg in lie-flat and thus this is why I booked my wife and I a OGG-LAX-SFO-FRA (with SFO-FRA in GF and other in domestic F) this coming February. But, I know we all have a different opinion on how we like to fly.

If you go with the LH flight, please let us know what you think of their new C.


I would love to have the longest flight in a lie flat, too. But I can't get that to work for the specific dates I need. I know I could fix that taking the UA GF from SFO, but that would put in plain eco for the flight to the mainland...

If I end up taking LH I will pass on my info. Sure that.

I would take the LH 747-8 in C over UA GF. I flew the 747-8 in F twice this summer/fall & tried out the C seat. It's very comfortable. The UA GF seat is comfortable as well but the service, food, etc will be better in LH C then UA F & if you get a seat over the wing, you can spend the flight watching it flex up & down :)

.... & if you get a seat over the wing, you can spend the flight watching it flex up & down :)
It's the little things in life, isn't it (LOL) :D

I would love to have the longest flight in a lie flat, too. But I can't get that to work for the specific dates I need.
What dates are you looking at? The Hawaii flights open and close F inventory all the time, I can't make any sense of it, which I think IM is very happy to hear;)
PS: Do all 3 of you need to fly together?

I'd go for LH. UA GlobalFirst is a joke, onboard service can be spotty to nonexistent. The 748i is a fantastic new aircraft with the new LH lie flat J seat. I'd say your miles/money and go with LH. Of course if it were LH F/LH J I'd go definitely go with LH F-the onboard and ground experience is as different as night and day.

What dates are you looking at? The Hawaii flights open and close F inventory all the time, I can't make any sense of it, which I think IM is very happy to hear;)
PS: Do all 3 of you need to fly together?

The flight will be February. But you're very correct: F inventory is unpredictable...

And yes, all three of us need to fly together - which doesn't make things easier...

I would take the LH 747-8 in C over UA GF. I flew the 747-8 in F twice this summer/fall & tried out the C seat. It's very comfortable. The UA GF seat is comfortable as well but the service, food, etc will be better in LH C then UA F & if you get a seat over the wing, you can spend the flight watching it flex up & down :)

I'd take UA F for a sure thing for a flat bed seat.

My problem with the LH 747-8 is that they have what, one aircraft? There have already been complaints in the LH forum about it not flying all the time. The risk is that they sub something else for the 747-8 and then you wind up in the LH crappy old C seat.

Now, on the other hand, if you can get LH F, that is not a whole different ball game, it's another sport entirely!

The UA 777 F is a nice hard product and only 12 seats in the cabin. The LH 747-8 has a high amount of C seats. Anyone have the exact amount-on my phone ATM? I would go with UA 777 F.

The first 3 Sundays and the last 2 Saturdays in Feb are wide open for 3 people in GF SFO-FRA

The UA 777 F is a nice hard product and only 12 seats in the cabin. The LH 747-8 has a high amount of C seats. Anyone have the exact amount-on my phone ATM? I would go with UA 777 F.

92

The UA 777 F is a nice hard product and only 12 seats in the cabin. The LH 747-8 has a high amount of C seats. Anyone have the exact amount-on my phone ATM? I would go with UA 777 F.

Yes, the UA F is a beautiful and comfortable hard product. Since June, they've also improved the food a lot, and usually the service is fine - nothing spectacular. The nice thing about UA F is that you have much more privacy and personal space than C on most airlines. So I guess it's what you value. I've flown LH C but only in Europe where it's not so great.

(I *was* amused by the sight of LH FA's wiping hand smudges off the overhead bins - and they literally ran down the aisles with the food service :)

Got to fly LH C from FRA-DEL a few weeks ago in the upper deck. I love the new plane smell, the food was pretty good and the seat very comfortable. I didn't find it that much different from the new UA C seats, though. What a plane, though.

My dilemma is LH C on 747-8 or UA F on 744. I've got row 1 on the 744 FRASFO or I could take LH C to IAD. My thoughts are 1) not having to deal with winter wx issues in IAD, 2) UA F on a 744 in row 1 seems to be decent, 3) LH C may not feel as private in light of more seats, 4) longer flt=hopefully more sleep.

Ultimately destination is SAN; I think I'd take my chances with the wx if LH F opens up...realize LH service is probably better overall but I've heard mixed reviews on C in general so maybe its a tossup.

Honestly, I'd pick LH C in 747-8 over any UA international F.

Much better value, too.

For eastbound redeye flights, I would certainly choose UA GF, especially if it is from the west coast. Longer flight time allows better sleep and the privacy in GF is nice.

However for westbound day-time flights, I can see someone wanting to "try out" the new 748 planes.

I know someone mentioned 748 C is a better value, but I assume OP is using miles, so I don't think C class award redemptions are that much of a value redemption compared to F. Sure if F seats opened up on the 748, it would be a no brainer.

Now if there was a comparison between NH 787 C vs. UA 777 F on NRT-SEA, it would be a different story.

Don't the new 747-8 C seats have an angle that allows you to give your seat mate a foot massage?
Personally, UA F and LH F are great seats. Service is great at LH I would always take F over C. The fact that its a new plane definitely piques my curiosity, but I vote with my butt and it says always go in F. Not too shabby a choice for you in either situation.

The -8i is awesome. LH in a minute, unless you plan just to sleeo. Food and service was better. And the plane is gorgeous.

Your foot space is clearly separate; I don't see how anyone could have a problem.

Many thanks for your posts. I really think it comes down to personal preferences. I received a very mixed picture, which I think is good because it shows that either product isn't terminally bad.

Regarding value of mile redemption in first class: I think it is a lot of price savings that you make, but in terms of value I am not so sure.

I'd take UA F for a sure thing for a flat bed seat.

My problem with the LH 747-8 is that they have what, one aircraft? There have already been complaints in the LH forum about it not flying all the time. The risk is that they sub something else for the 747-8 and then you wind up in the LH crappy old C seat.

Now, on the other hand, if you can get LH F, that is not a whole different ball game, it's another sport entirely!

They have more then 1 aircraft. That was the problem during the summer when they only had 1, flying 6 days a week IAD-FRA w the 7th day used for training. Now they fly the 747-8 to IAD & 2 cities in India (they have at least 4 now). The 2 times I took it, it was right on time

Don't the new 747-8 C seats have an angle that allows you to give your seat mate a foot massage?
Personally, UA F and LH F are great seats. Service is great at LH I would always take F over C. The fact that its a new plane definitely piques my curiosity, but I vote with my butt and it says always go in F. Not too shabby a choice for you in either situation.

It looked that way from the original pictures before anyone saw the actual product. Of course, the LH thread on FT were up in arms about this, even though no one had seen the actual seat in real life :rolleyes: Turns out LH did a good job. Yes, the seats are angled at each other but unless you & the person next to you is well over 2 metres tall w size 14 feet, you won't have a problem

Instead of UA metal from Ord to Europe tried LH from JFK to FRA in business. I know there have been other threads but this is an update. Great experience. First downside is not flat seats. But then real professionalism on board. Food good. Very clean AC. Great lounge. Super clean, modern and great selection of food and drink. But again it's the overall professionalism (yes a bit cold) but on time and done with a very positive attitude. I'm not sleeping for days so I think FOR ME LH in business works well. I have a sense that I'm getting (almost) what I paid for with good execution. On UA hit or miss in J. That's my impression and I still got my UA miles.

Instead of UA metal from Ord to Europe tried LH from JFK to FRA in business. I know there have been other threads but this is an update. Great experience. First downside is not flat seats. But then real professionalism on board. Food good. Very clean AC. Great lounge. Super clean, modern and great selection of food and drink. But again it's the overall professionalism (yes a bit cold) but on time and done with a very positive attitude. I'm not sleeping for days so I think FOR ME LH in business works well. I have a sense that I'm getting (almost) what I paid for with good execution. On UA hit or miss in J. That's my impression and I still got my UA miles.

Having flown LH a few times, I have to agree totally with the above OP. Will be looking to fly them a few times this year as I am tired of the UA hit or miss experience.

LH J is a no-go for me due to the non-lay-flat seats. Their food and service is good, but no better or worse than any foreign-flag carrier as best I can tell. Very consistent, which is always a good way to manage a product.

Food on OS and TK is better thanks to DO&CO.

RIP TK F.

LH J is a no-go for me due to the non-lay-flat seats. Their food and service is good, but no better or worse than any foreign-flag carrier as best I can tell. Very consistent, which is always a good way to manage a product.

Food on OS and TK is better thanks to DO&CO.

RIP TK F.

New LH J has lie-flat seats. I agree the food on TK is better, but the service of food and drink is often lacking because the service process is designed badly. TK is hit or miss on lie-flat seats as well.

UA C on 772 >> LX C on 333 >> LH C on 333

UA - very comfy seat, great IFE choices, good service
LX - seat air padding too hard, good service, but not as good as on UA
LH - seat & hardware awful, limited choices for IFE (lots of EU programming that I'd never watch), service somewhat cold

My service impressions are pretty subjective, because I usually make good contact with US/UA FAs, we have small talk, etc., so, I get excellent & frequent service pretty much every time I fly. This never happens on LH / LX - FAs either don't speak good English (and I don't speak German or French) and / or are not particularly interested in making conversation. It's pretty much "here is your food, sir, enjoy".

I find UA service better as well, they have trained the FAs to regularly walk the aisles with water, etc. during the non-meal hours. LH service is glacial (it should not take 3 hours to complete dinner service, esp. when you know people want to sleep) - usually 1 hour from takeoff to first drink orders. Yes I have timed it and it is consistent (a I find LH staff to be pleasant but a bit lazy after meals are done and worst on the new 380s. I haven't had any communication issues though sometimes I have a little fun by responding in German as the FAs often (incorrectly) assume that's my native language due to my German surname. :D

That being said, UA should start planning its next move as I can see many people switching to LH when the lie-flat installation is completed over the next few years as LH-LH connections are often better. Then again maybe there is no incentive due to the revenue-sharing pact. :(

For SFO-FRA, I have an option of either UA F (via GPU; 1k so guessing it will clear) or LH Z -- WWFTD? Continuing flight is LH either way...

Also, for a codeshare on UA metal, do UAMP mileage/benefits follow as if it were a UA ticket (particularly w/ weaker partnerships like 9W)?

For SFO-FRA, I have an option of either UA F (via GPU; 1k so guessing it will clear) or LH Z -- WWFTD? Continuing flight is LH either way...

Also, for a codeshare on UA metal, do UAMP mileage/benefits follow as if it were a UA ticket (particularly w/ weaker partnerships like 9W)?

I personally would take UA in F for the seat and entertainment. Both of those are more important to me than the soft product.

Codeshare really has no relevance as to what benefits your entitled to. If the flight was *A flight then you would get *G recognition as a 1K, but with the "weaker partnerships" the only real benefit is mileage accrual unless otherwise stated to my knowledge.

For SFO-FRA, I have an option of either UA F (via GPU; 1k so guessing it will clear) or LH Z -- WWFTD? Continuing flight is LH either way.

Unless you could somehow get into LH F, I would take UA F or C over LH old C. The seat and IFE are much better in UA C versus LH slanted C seat. LH food is marginally better, but not enough to give up a true flat bed seat. Haven't been in new LH C yet, so can't comment on that.

Now if you could get into LH F, then it's a whole different ball game.

Now if there was a comparison between NH 787 C vs. UA 777 F on NRT-SEA, it would be a different story.

Off topic, but I do this route a lot and would always take UA GF over NH C. Nice service on NH, but for someone's who is tall the GF seat is much better. GR also gets you into the NH or UA IFC at NRT.

Off topic, but I do this route a lot and would always take UA GF over NH C. Nice service on NH, but for someone's who is tall the GF seat is much better. GR also gets you into the NH or UA IFC at NRT.

Yeah of course, but then again you are comparing an F product to a C one.

My service impressions are pretty subjective, because I usually make good contact with US/UA FAs, we have small talk, etc., so, I get excellent & frequent service pretty much every time I fly. This never happens on LH / LX - FAs either don't speak good English (and I don't speak German or French) and / or are not particularly interested in making conversation. It's pretty much "here is your food, sir, enjoy".

LX and LH FAs are professional. In C they will definitely have extended chats in the galley but in the cabin they are working hard to serve the entire cabin efficiently.

On the other hand UA FAs do what they want - they are more than happy to loudly chat at a pax seat while ignoring the needs of others.

In F on LX or LH where there is a higher ratio of FAs they will engage while you are at your seat as they have back-up.

Codeshare really has no relevance as to what benefits your entitled to. If the flight was *A flight then you would get *G recognition as a 1K, but with the "weaker partnerships" the only real benefit is mileage accrual unless otherwise stated to my knowledge.

Sorry, I probably phrased that poorly. If the operating airline owns the pax FF, then do they handle mileage credit directly, or does it first have to report via the ticketing airline? (e.g. can UAMP support resolve credit issues for UA metal on a codeshare? Hence my concern of LH vs. 9W)