Southwest Rapid Rewards - Customer of Size question

Many years ago I was going to fly Southwest to a job interview. I had just declared bankruptcy and was out of work, so I was looking forward to a chance at a good job.

I weigh 225 pounds plus or minus 10 pounds.

I boarded the flight, sat down and could not buckle the seat belt, the belt seemed shorter, or maybe it was hungup on something, I don't remember exactly, so I moved to a different seat, buckled the seat belt just fine (with at least 6 inches to spare).

The flight was about half full.

A few minutes later the gate agent came on board and told me to come with him.
He said I would have to purchase a second ticket. I said, why, the plane is not full, I am all paid and buckled in, nobody is sitting next to me, and I am NOT overflowing into the next seat.

He told me that when I sat in the first seat and could not buckle the belt, that was evidence that I was a person of size.

I told him there must be something wrong with the belt in that seat, but I told him I can sit in any of the other seats on the airplane.

He said it was the discretion of the gate agent, and I would have to buy another ticket. I told him I didn't have any credit cards or any way to buy the ticket, since I didn't have enough money in my bank account for the ticket.

He told me I would have to buy the second ticket at the walkup rate (which I later learned was not true) and that since the flight was only half full, I would get the money back.


So to make a long story short, I was booted from the plane and given credit for my ticket to use within a year.

Obviously I didn't make the job interview, or get the job. It was a low point for me.

I have been afraid to travel with them ever since and have not used them. Now I want to travel to a place and Southwest makes the most sense because of baggage allowance, schedule, and the fare, but I am mortified of a repeat of the previous experience.
I have flown over 400,000 miles since then and not a dime has gone to Southwest.

Can anybody update me on the current Person of Size policy and enforcement?

We have several commenters in this forum who will know more than I, but can you tell us your height as well, so we can judge the situation better?

I outweigh you probably 40-50 pounds, but I am almost 6'4". Never a problem for me on WN.

Height 5ft 9in

Waist 40 +- 2 inches

I'm 5'10", 210-220, 38" waist and I've never experienced what you did in 100+ WN flights the last 6 years. Then again, I never had an issue with the seatbelt either.

Don't know what to tell you.

I'm 5' 11", 350lbs (although most people think I'm about 275-290 so my 350 is not your normal 350). I can fasten the seat belts on 737-300 and 500's, but only some 700's. Even when I have asked for an extender on the 700's I have never had an issue with any GA, FA or passenger.

The absolute best way for you to handle this will be to proactively purchase the second seat using the COS policy and then apply for the refund after the flight. That will prevent the situation that happened last time from happening again.

However, that said, there is a good chance that you could fly without using the COS policy and no one would call you on it. It's entirely up to the discretion of every SW employee you encounter. The ticket agent could determine you are too large and require a second seat. The agent at the gate could do that as well, or the flight attendant could do it. Or none of them could do it and you could be fine. There is just no way to know in advance. How each of those individuals define "encroachment" can be totally different.

The only way to avoid putting yourself at the mercy of those decisions would be to use the policy as it is intended.

The absolute best way for you to handle this will be to proactively purchase the second seat using the COS policy and then apply for the refund after the flight. That will prevent the situation that happened last time from happening again.

However, that said, there is a good chance that you could fly without using the COS policy and no one would call you on it. It's entirely up to the discretion of every SW employee you encounter. The ticket agent could determine you are too large and require a second seat. The agent at the gate could do that as well, or the flight attendant could do it. Or none of them could do it and you could be fine. There is just no way to know in advance. How each of those individuals define "encroachment" can be totally different.

The only way to avoid putting yourself at the mercy of those decisions would be to use the policy as it is intended.

Does anyone know if buying the 2nd seat somehow marks your account so that it's flagged if you don't buy a second seat on future itineraries?

Does anyone know if buying the 2nd seat somehow marks your account so that it's flagged if you don't buy a second seat on future itineraries?

That's something I've never inquired about. If it does flag there would have to be a fairly simple way to remove it since people do change sizes, some of us rather frequently :)

The absolute best way for you to handle this will be to proactively purchase the second seat using the COS policy and then apply for the refund after the flight. That will prevent the situation that happened last time from happening again.

However, that said, there is a good chance that you could fly without using the COS policy and no one would call you on it. It's entirely up to the discretion of every SW employee you encounter. The ticket agent could determine you are too large and require a second seat. The agent at the gate could do that as well, or the flight attendant could do it. Or none of them could do it and you could be fine. There is just no way to know in advance. How each of those individuals define "encroachment" can be totally different.

The only way to avoid putting yourself at the mercy of those decisions would be to use the policy as it is intended.

Well at the time I was unemployed, and when you are in bankruptcy you don't have credit and I was totally clueless to this policy. I had flown many times on many airlines, including Southwest, and NEVER had a problem.
Purchasing a second ticket was completely out of the question.

I did find another way to cope with it, I used other airlines. What I am trying to find out is if in the years since I have flown Southwest whether the policy is still capriciously and arbitrarily enforced, or whether better guidelines/ rules have been put in place.

That seems unfair since the flight wasn't full or nearly full

What I am trying to find out is if in the years since I have flown Southwest whether the policy is still capriciously and arbitrarily enforced, or whether better guidelines/ rules have been put in place.

Yes. No.

225 +/- 10 will not be a problem. I am 290, 5' 10" and I am a marginal COS, but I fly as a COS anyway. I gained a lot of weight due to a recent medical treatment (Steroids-ugh!) but my normal weight before was about 260-265. It was never a problem. That is about 100 segments a year worth for more than 5 years and 50-60 segments a year for the 5 years before that.

Some of the seat belts are too short. Period. Seems to be worse in window seats and on 700's as said above. The seat belt rule no longer applies. It is now the armrest rule. See here. (http://www.southwest.com/html/generated/help/faqs/extra_seat_policy_faq.html)

Well at the time I was unemployed, and when you are in bankruptcy you don't have credit and I was totally clueless to this policy.

I understand that that was the situation before. I was simply trying to suggest how you could avoid that same potential problems this time.

Height 5ft 9in

Waist 40 +- 2 inches

My guess is that you would be more likely to be denied the second seat because you are not large enough than to be denied use of one seat for being too large. It sounds like you encountered a hypervigilant newbie FA who was unwilling to consider the possibility that the first seat belt was too short and insufficiently experienced to know that your size was fine for a normal seat belt.

Chalk it up as one of the things that go wrong when you travel.

While I understand enforcement of the COS policy can be subjective, IMhO the not sold out/refund part of the policy is a fair system (IIRC, F9 does this too).

If you were to fly DL, you could just be held until the next flight.
If you were to fly AA, UA, or NK you would be required to buy an additional seat with no potential for a refund.

I have flown all of those airlines (with the exception of Spirit) and many others without any incident. So on those airlines, I would not have and have never been charged for an extra seat.
It sounds like, while the criteria may have changed (arm rest vs seat belts) the arbitrary and capricious method of enforcement has not.
That still bothers me.
I like my flying to be predictable, stable, and consistent, not inconsistent, uncertain, unpredictable, and subject to the whim of an employee.
I really think the airline needs to have weight/height guidelines, if they are going to have
a Customer of Size charge. That would give a uniformity and certainty.
So Southwest stays in my Not Ready for Prime Time list for now.

I have flown all of those airlines (with the exception of Spirit) and many others without any incident. So on those airlines, I would not have and have never been charged for an extra seat.
It sounds like, while the criteria may have changed (arm rest vs seat belts) the arbitrary and capricious method of enforcement has not.
That still bothers me.
I like my flying to be predictable, stable, and consistent, not inconsistent, uncertain, unpredictable, and subject to the whim of an employee.
I really think the airline needs to have weight/height guidelines, if they are going to have
a Customer of Size charge. That would give a uniformity and certainty.
So Southwest stays in my Not Ready for Prime Time list for now.

I do not understand your complaint. They have a guideline. The armrests must go down. If not, you may be denied seating or forced to buy a second seat. If they go down, no problem. That is the current guideline.

In fact, it appears to be almost an industry standard.

Delta: (http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/special_travel_needs/passengers_of_size/index.jsp)

Customers Requiring Extra Seat Space

Delta does not require passengers who need a seatbelt extender or are unable to lower the armrest to purchase additional seats. However, for the safety and comfort of our other passengers, you may be asked to move to another location that provides additional space. In the event of a full flight you will be asked to take a later flight with available seating. To avoid this situation, we recommend that you purchase an additional seat.

American: (http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/specialAssistance/extraSpace.jsp)

Customers Requiring Extra Space

For the safety and comfort of all customers, we have aligned our seating accommodation policies with other major airlines regarding customers who may require more than one seat because they are:

Unable to fit into a single seat in their ticketed cabin and/or
Unable to properly buckle their seatbelt using a single seatbelt extender (available upon request from a flight attendant) and/or
Unable to lower both armrests without encroaching upon the adjacent seating space or another customer.



United: (http://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/specialneeds/customersize/default.aspx)

Customers requiring extra seating

A customer flying in the economy cabin who is not able to safely and comfortably fit in a single seat is required to purchase an additional seat for each leg of their itinerary. The second seat may be purchased for the same fare as the original seat, provided it is purchased at the same time. A customer who does not purchase an extra seat in advance may be required to do so on the day of departure for the fare level available on the day of departure. The customer may instead choose to purchase a ticket for United First®, United Business® or United BusinessFirst®, or elect to pay for an upgrade to a premium cabin if there is availability to do so. United Airlines is not required to provide additional seats or upgrades free of charge.

A customer is required to purchase an additional seat or upgrade if they do not meet one of the following criteria:

The customer must be able to properly attach, buckle and wear the seatbelt, with one extension if necessary, whenever the seatbelt sign is illuminated or as instructed by a crew member.*
The customer must be able to remain seated with the seat armrest(s) down for the entirety of the flight.
The customer must not significantly encroach upon the adjacent seating space. See our seat maps.

United will not board a customer who declines to purchase a ticket for an additional seat or upgrade for each leg of their itinerary when required.

*The average length of the seatbelt extension is approximately 25 inches. As the seat designs on our aircraft vary, it is possible that the seatbelt extension presented on your flight provides less than 25 inches of additional coverage. Regardless of the actual additional length the extension provides, if you do not meet the first criteria listed above when using the extension provided on your flight, it will be necessary for you to purchase an additional seat or an upgrade, where available.

Frontier (http://www.frontierairlines.com/faqs/customer-of-size-faqs):

How does Frontier determine if an additional seat is required for a customer of size?
The armrests serve as the customary divider between seats. With that in mind, customers unable to lower both armrests into the fully down position and who encroach into any portion of adjacent seat or aisle will be asked to purchase an additional seat. We hope our customers of size will opt to book the number of seats needed prior to travel; thereby, helping ensure the seating of their choice and optimizing their chance to remain on the flights originally purchased.

Spirit: (http://customersupport.spirit.com/entries/21368423-can-i-purchase-an-extra-seat-for-myself-or-something-i-m-transporting)

Can I purchase an extra seat for myself or something I’m transporting?

Yes, in fact we require it in the following circumstances:

To accommodate a customer of size who encroaches on an adjacent seat area and/or is unable to sit in a single seat with the armrests lowered;
To transport a customer who, because of his or her particular disability, would be unable to travel without the purchase of additional space on the aircraft;
To transport large musical instruments or electronic audio/video, medical, or other sensitive equipment unsuitable for carriage as checked baggage, as specified in the Contract of Carriage


US Airways (http://www.usairways.com/en-CH/travel_information/customers_first/carriage2.html), CoC Refusal to Transport:

Are unable or unwilling to sit in a seat with the armrest down and the seat belt fastened;

In my case the arm rests went down fine (see original posting). I do not know if the guideline about that was in place when I flew or not. I know that I fit in the seat fine, both armrests went down and I was not overflowing into another seat.

My questions where about the uneven enforcement, whether I have to worry about being "selected" and whether that was still and issue, and it sounds like it is.

So my "complaint" if any is have GOOD guidelines AND uniform, consistent enforcement of them, so that the uncertainty is removed.

You have no idea how humiliating it is to be blindsided by this while on board the plane.

In my case the arm rests went down fine (see original posting). I do not know if the guideline about that was in place when I flew or not. I know that I fit in the seat fine, both armrests went down and I was not overflowing into another seat.

My questions where about the uneven enforcement, whether I have to worry about being "selected" and whether that was still and issue, and it sounds like it is.

So my "complaint" if any is have GOOD guidelines AND uniform, consistent enforcement of them, so that the uncertainty is removed.

You have no idea how humiliating it is to be blindsided by this while on board the plane.

My point is that the enforcement has changed since your incident. If the armrests go down, you will not have another problem. You wanted assurance that things have changed and many of us have tried to give you that assurance. If you do not want to fly WN, then don't. A lot of people will not use them for a lot of reasons.

As for me, I will never fly UA again for a completely different reason. Therefore, I understand the one failure/no forgiveness mindset. In my case, it is still illogical, but I am going to stick with it.

As an aside, never pay to get a job. If they wanted to fly you for an interview, they should have paid for it.

They were going to reimburse me for the price of the ticket at the interview. Their corporate agency did not use Southwest and they asked if I would book it and they would reimburse me, since it was a quick booking, and Southwest was direct and cheaper than the alternatives.
I suppose I could have insisted that they buy the ticket, but the reimbursement offer seemed fine to me ... at the time. Also I didn't want them to know that basically it was my last few hundred bucks. They had a driver to meet me at the airport and a hotel room booked, since I was arriving at night.
I was unable to reach them until the next morning to tell them I would not arrive. They were NOT happy, needless to say.

I have flown all of those airlines (with the exception of Spirit) and many others without any incident.

It's not widely known (sorry about that inadvertent pun) that the Airbus narrowbody planes are 6 inches wider and have 1 inch wider seats than Boeing's narrowbody planes. This is part of the reason JetBlue's seating is so very comfortable. That and the use of normal thickness seats. ;)

I am female, 5'7 and my weight is pretty normal (fluctating between 130-140). Several times I have had seat belts that have been much too short ~ causing me great alarm that I might have ballooned in the last week! I could barely barely buckle them and the flights have been miserable. Including CW! So ~ yes. seat-belts are not equal and this should be monitored by ground maintenance

In my salad days when I flew coach exclusively, I have bee squiched in between large, and even not particularly large passengers (usually rum drenched tourists) and while the arm "rests were down their actual arms/elbows were on my seat, sometimes in my ribs. I tried to shrink, but never a word from the FA's to which it should have been totally apparent and who should have moved me; maybe because these pax were quite drunk and the flights were full. These were NOT charters.

40+2 is a ridiculous width, as is the height of 5ft 9' for gauging a person's size. Next they'll want to know your sleeve length and shoe size:rolleyes:

I'd like to know how the Olympians bypass these draconian guide-lines? No way could the arm-rests meet the ridiculous requirements, and their feet would probably reach up to the third row in front of them.

I'm really sorry OP, that you weant through such an unnessary ordeal. Wouldn't it be great if that in addition to learning evacuation routes, which in most case of a crash would not apply anyway, they could be taught discretion? ~ not only in the sense of manners, but the reliance of their own intelligence capacities. Bummer about the job but you strike me as quite competent and will likely land something else. Good luck!

I have flown all of those airlines (with the exception of Spirit) and many others without any incident. So on those airlines, I would not have and have never been charged for an extra seat.
It sounds like, while the criteria may have changed (arm rest vs seat belts) the arbitrary and capricious method of enforcement has not.
That still bothers me.
I like my flying to be predictable, stable, and consistent, not inconsistent, uncertain, unpredictable, and subject to the whim of an employee.
I really think the airline needs to have weight/height guidelines, if they are going to have
a Customer of Size charge. That would give a uniformity and certainty.
So Southwest stays in my Not Ready for Prime Time list for now.

With all due respect, your question has been answered many times over. You will either fly WN or you won't. What happened to you (many years ago) was terrible. But, from a sample given here, it seems that it was an isolated occurence. No one can guarantee that you will or will not encounter the same situation on a future flight. Situations such as this are completely subjective based on flight variables and the employee handling them.

I am a little lighter than you and I've never even been glanced at for another seat on any airline. In fact, it has never even occured to me that I would face that as I comfortably fit into a standard seat with a fitting seat belt. Clearly, the GA (many years ago) was in the wrong.

If you choose to write off WN based on your previous experience, you are justified and it's your right to do so. I just fail to see the point of a thread where you solicit experience based on current policy, are reassured by people larger than you that they've never had an issue and "decide" that you will stick with your current no-fly policy. If your mind is already made up based on your previous experience (many years ago), why does the current policy even matter? To my knowledge, no American airline has specific height/weight requirement to fly. It's all dependant on whether or not the equipment functions properly for your seat. (I.E. Armrests go completely down)

Yes I agree the question has been answered, my post that you quote is my statement to that effect. Anything after that is just the thread taking on a life of its own. MODS, as far as I am concerned my question has been answered. My last post on this thread. Jim.

As an aside, never pay to get a job. If they wanted to fly you for an interview, they should have paid for it.

This comment is a little off topic. So my response is a little off topic.

However, I must say that I disagree with this statement.

Sorry. but in this economy, way toooo many new graduates and unemployed people out there. Therefore, if jobs are not in your area, you are left with no choice but to look at relocating for employment.

The company is extremely unlikely to pay for you to travel for an interview, because even if you are the best candidate for the job, they have many other choices located in the same area (not requiring travel).

It would be nice if they would offer video conferencing interviews, but many will not.

It might be useful to share what you know unless it infringes witness protection or international treaty.

I'm 5' 11", 350lbs (although most people think I'm about 275-290 so my 350 is not your normal 350). I can fasten the seat belts on 737-300 and 500's, but only some 700's. Even when I have asked for an extender on the 700's I have never had an issue with any GA, FA or passenger.

The last time i flew Southwest is was 2002 and I could not get the seat belt to click at all,I was much lighter then.

This last year I flew with them several times and I bought a belt extender just in case,I was in fact not thinking of flying at all, since my 2002 experience was not good,good thing my friend was the next seat over and it was a short flight.


Well at the time I was unemployed, and when you are in bankruptcy you don't have credit and I was totally clueless to this policy. I had flown many times on many airlines, including Southwest, and NEVER had a problem.
Purchasing a second ticket was completely out of the question.

I did find another way to cope with it, I used other airlines. What I am trying to find out is if in the years since I have flown Southwest whether the policy is still capriciously and arbitrarily enforced, or whether better guidelines/ rules have been put in place.

Yes I agree the question has been answered, my post that you quote is my statement to that effect. Anything after that is just the thread taking on a life of its own. MODS, as far as I am concerned my question has been answered. My last post on this thread. Jim.

Anyhow,i stand 5'10" and weight 360 now, the armrests do go down,but i do not even try the seat belt,i just use the extension. Not once was I looked at in anyway that they would say hey NO,you need a 2nd seat.

I have read articles that some people have been asked to leave the airplane or buy a extra seat,not with me, and i have flown all the way to Texas from Los Angeles. So i think it has been answered but that FA was out of line,maybe she was new and wanted to act on something that with time he/she would not view it as a big deal.

Just wanted to chat in,even though the last statement was in October of last year.

The last time i flew Southwest is was 2002 and I could not get the seat belt to click at all,I was much lighter then.

This last year I flew with them several times and I bought a belt extender just in case,I was in fact not thinking of flying at all, since my 2002 experience was not good,good thing my friend was the next seat over and it was a short flight.






Anyhow,i stand 5'10" and weight 360 now, the armrests do go down,but i do not even try the seat belt,i just use the extension. Not once was I looked at in anyway that they would say hey NO,you need a 2nd seat.

I have read articles that some people have been asked to leave the airplane or buy a extra seat,not with me, and i have flown all the way to Texas from Los Angeles. So i think it has been answered but that FA was out of line,maybe she was new and wanted to act on something that with time he/she would not view it as a big deal.

Just wanted to chat in,even though the last statement was in October of last year.

You may not need an extra seat. I don't need one.

The person that has to sit next to me will wish I had gotten one, though.

You may not need an extra seat. I don't need one.

The person that has to sit next to me will wish I had gotten one, though.

InkUnderNails, you've always seemed the voice of reason in this discussion, admitting that you get a second seat. But if I'm the person next to you on a flight, I'll be sorry:confused: What gives?

InkUnderNails, you've always seemed the voice of reason in this discussion, admitting that you get a second seat. But if I'm the person next to you on a flight, I'll be sorry:confused: What gives?

If he didn't use the COS benefit to reserve a middle seat, you would be uncomfortable sitting in the middle seat next to him and "wish [he] had gotten one."

Polite way of saying, the benefit isn't just for yourself, but for your fellow passengers too.

The person that has to sit next to me will wish I had gotten one, though.

How so? you mentioned you do not need one,but yet sound like you do.

How so? you mentioned you do not need one,but yet sound like you do.

This may answer your question.

This last year I flew with them several times and I bought a belt extender just in case,I was in fact not thinking of flying at all, since my 2002 experience was not good,good thing my friend was the next seat over and it was a short flight.

This may answer your question.

Actually it does not,I posted that and my friend actually was next to me in 2002,since then i have flown alone on several SW flights from LAX-SFO & LAX-SAT.

Still wondering why he would ask,just my wondering mind.

Actually it does not,I posted that and my friend actually was next to me in 2002,since then i have flown alone on several SW flights from LAX-SFO & LAX-SAT.

Ink can get the armrests down just like yourself (meeting the technical definition of not being a COS), but it would be uncomfortable to sit next to him, and thus he gets the 2nd seat to make both himself AND the person that doesn't have to sit next to him more comfortable.

You said you are even heavier now than when you flew with your uncomfortable friend in the next seat in 2002. Getting the 2nd seat is not just for your comfort.

Still wondering why he would ask,just my wondering mind.

Nobody asked you a question.

Nobody asked you a question.

And i did not ask you to reply,but yet you did, the question was actually meant for InkUnderNails

And i did not ask you to reply,but yet you did, the question was actually meant for InkUnderNails

This is a forum where people come and go and ask and answer questions at their leisure. I figured you would like a prompt response. I'm sure Ink will be back to give you the same answer eventually, possibly with a joke about a quarter pounder and fries away from being a COS thrown in there. Or you could just read his post on page one (post 12 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/19009707-post12.html)) of the thread.

You don't disagree that when you flew in 2002 with your friend, your "experience was not good". I bet it wasn't good for your friend either. You also state that you are "much" heavier now than then. So it is certainly not going to be more comfortable now for you or the person next to you. Come to your own conclusion from there.

How so? you mentioned you do not need one,but yet sound like you do.

I might as well bounce of this one as any.

I do not need one means that if I wanted to squeeze myself into the seat I can. The armrest will almost go all of the way down but will rest on my legs and part of me will overhang the armrest. This means that the person in the middle will get no use of the armrest, even if I wanted them to, and would have to lean slightly away for comfort.

And if you go back and read my original response to you:

You may not need an extra seat. I don't need one.

The person that has to sit next to me will wish I had gotten one, though.

I make no assumption or suggestions about your specific body shape and configuration that would affect the comfort of the middle seat person, just mine. The person that sits next to you may not care.

In other words, for different reasons, neither of us necessarily needs the extra seat. In my case, I get one and pay for it using CP, because of my comfort (I admit that) and because it prevents the discomfort of someone having to sit next to me.

You don't disagree that when you flew in 2002 with your friend, your "experience was not good". I bet it wasn't good for your friend either. You also state that you are "much" heavier now than then. So it is certainly not going to be more comfortable now for you or the person next to you. Come to your own conclusion from there.

The experience was actually with the seat belt,and not with the arm seat coming down or me intruding in his area back in 2002 or now.

That is why now I take my seat belt extender, I was surprised to hear that some seatbelts are longer then other on flights,figured it was a standard through out the industry.

I might as well bounce of this one as any.

I do not need one means that if I wanted to squeeze myself into the seat I can. The armrest will almost go all of the way down but will rest on my legs and part of me will overhang the armrest. This means that the person in the middle will get no use of the armrest, even if I wanted them to, and would have to lean slightly away for comfort..

I understand,I guess I am larger in the stomach part then on my legs, but I do agree that i have broad shoulders,so I tend to choose the window seat so i can somewhat lean towards the window.

And if you go back and read my original response to you:

I make no assumption or suggestions about your specific body shape and configuration that would affect the comfort of the middle seat person, just mine. The person that sits next to you may not care.

Never took it that way,Only wondering why, since I knew I have a problem on my stomach area,figured everyone that is a large individual has sections (lower half) (upper half) situations that they may/may not need a extra seat.

I will be honest with you, back in 2002 I noticed a gate attendent looking me over,now they do not even show it, but it is in the back of my mind,always is.

Very considerate of you by the way.