Cathay Pacific Asia Miles - Only one person in PE (JFK-HKG)

Flew JFK HKG the other day. I was one of the last to board, and saw only one person sitting in PE as I made my way to the back of the plane.

Economy was nearly but not sold out so I guess there were no op ups, but I was still shocked at the empty PE cabin. Business (new seats) was quite full though.

Flew JFK HKG the other day. I was one of the last to board, and saw only one person sitting in PE as I made my way to the back of the plane.

Economy was nearly but not sold out so I guess there were no op ups, but I was still shocked at the empty PE cabin. Business (new seats) was quite full though.

Similar situation here from recent YYZ flights. Econ was full, but PE was about 20-30% full. I don't think CX is selling PE seats very well. Business class was quite full though. Maybe they were upgrading Y passengers directly to J, skipping PE.

My flight from HKG to JFK just over 3 weeks ago was a full flight in all classes. Massively oversold in Economy so lots of Op ups across all classes.

Seemed to be a lot of families split between business and PE (which resulted in a lot of foot traffic between and a lot of seat sharing)

Flew JFK HKG the other day. I was one of the last to board, and saw only one person sitting in PE as I made my way to the back of the plane.

Economy was nearly but not sold out so I guess there were no op ups, but I was still shocked at the empty PE cabin. Business (new seats) was quite full though.

Why shock? I predicted this. Who the hell wants to spend another $1500 USD just to get a seat that's one inch wider? If you are very rich you buy Business Class. Corporations that can afford premium cabin usually fly employees Business Class. Companies that are on budget flies employees Economy Class. The CX PE is doom in my opinion. If they rolled out 2-2-2, even 2-3-2, maybe it will get some people to think about it, but not 2-4-2 joke that they rolled out.

Why shock? I predicted this. Who the hell wants to spend another $1500 USD just to get a seat that's one inch wider? If you are very rich you buy Business Class. Corporations that can afford premium cabin usually fly employees Business Class. Companies that are on budget flies employees Economy Class. The CX PE is doom in my opinion. If they rolled out 2-2-2, even 2-3-2, maybe it will get some people to think about it, but not 2-4-2 joke that they rolled out.

I fly PE to Europe on BA, as the fares are reasonable. Company pays for it. They would never pay for PE to North America because CX's fares are outlandishly ridiculous.

I flew HKG-JFK-HKG a couple of weeks ago and PE loads were very light on the return JFK-HKG leg. I was seated in Y but could see that PE was not full.

New Y seats are pretty decent, don't see the point really in paying double to get a J main course on a single meal and a marginally better seat.

PE to Europe is priced much more sensibly than to North America.

I fly PE to Europe on BA, as the fares are reasonable. Company pays for it. They would never pay for PE to North America because CX's fares are outlandishly ridiculous.

I flew HKG-JFK-HKG a couple of weeks ago and PE loads were very light on the return JFK-HKG leg. I was seated in Y but could see that PE was not full.

New Y seats are pretty decent, don't see the point really in paying double to get a J main course on a single meal and a marginally better seat.

PE to Europe is priced much more sensibly than to North America.

+1.

CX's PE to North America is priced at insane levels. If you're based in HK but have business in TPE or MNL, you can just fly ex-MNL or ex-TPE to North America in J for the same price as ex-HK in PEY.

So I guess Y+ will now be op-up heaven for elites as economy is bound to be fully booked?

So I guess Y+ will now be op-up heaven for elites as economy is bound to be fully booked?

Yea...I guess if anything this protects the integrity of J and F a lot better

Yea...I guess if anything this protects the integrity of J and F a lot better

It's quite possible that not much will change in this regard as CX may just heavily overbook Y so that they can fill up Y+ as well in case it's empty.

It's quite possible that not much will change in this regard as CX may just heavily overbook Y so that they can fill up Y+ as well in case it's empty.

With the new Y seat, would you stay aisle seat in Y or take middle seat in Y+?
Exit Y seat or middle Y+ seat?

If CX retain anything like the current sales prices for Y+ exAustralia, they will definitely sell tickets in that cabin. J is overpriced on those routes and people want that little bit of extra space for sleeping on red-eye flights or avoiding dueling elbows during meals. I have flown the BA/QF Y+ cabin SIN/HKG-LHR as a satisfied customer.



Happy wandering

Fred

Yea...I guess if anything this protects the integrity of J and F a lot better

Doesn't this hurt CX Y revenue then? The idea was to increase revenue from straight Y+ sales. Now, Y+ is reduced to op-up cabin, and that means less Y revenues because Y seats are used to put in Y+ seats, and now oversold Y's are being put in Y+.

With the new Y seat, would you stay aisle seat in Y or take middle seat in Y+?
Exit Y seat or middle Y+ seat?

It's been years since I've flown any kind of middle seat on CX, so it's hard for me to say... ;)

However, if I had to make spot decision based on incomplete information, I'd probably take an op-up to middle Y+ rather than aisle Y (for longhaul, where Y+ service is offered).

I would never pay for Y+ unless I was guaranteed to get either an aisle or window seat.

I don't like exit rows much. My preference for Y seating is a D or G aisle seat as far in front as possible, excluding exit or bulkhead rows. For Y+ I would prefer a bulkhead AC or HK seat.

Doesn't this hurt CX Y revenue then? The idea was to increase revenue from straight Y+ sales. Now, Y+ is reduced to op-up cabin, and that means less Y revenues because Y seats are used to put in Y+ seats, and now oversold Y's are being put in Y+.

Yea, this is absolutely correct on the 77H configuration. Frankly, I do not understand why CX configured 77H as they did because it's even MORE premium than 77A/77D, just with additional segmentation that comes at the expense of Y .

Look at these comps:
77A: 301 total seats. 6/57/00/238 F/J/Y+/Y.
77D: 297 total seats. 6/53/00/238 F/J/Y+/Y.
77H: 275 total seats. 6/53/34/182 F/J/Y+/Y.
77G: 340 total seats. 0/40/32/268 F/J/Y+/Y.

The 77G evolution makes sense to me (it's an admission that yields aren't as premium as CX expected, that F/J had gotten too premium for many routes, and there was yield enhancements to be had by growing Y class to increase total seat count).

77H does not. 77H is actually the MOST premium config that CX has! I might add that I do not know of ANY other major commercial carrier flying 777-300ERs with seat counts even close to as low as 275 for the same aircraft type. Anything under 300 is already very low. CX kept J seat count the same as 77D, just grew PEY at the expense of Y class. I think this business decision may end up being a mistake....I would've thought that CX would do better to add PEY at expense of J, not Y. Everything else the company is doing in their network seems to be an admission that their configs were simply too premium, yet they go ahead with 77H and make the most premium config of them all.

JFK is a perfect example.On JFK, which is probably on average the most expensive long-haul route in the CX network, you say it yourself - you get heaps of op-ups into J class, very frequently. Which tells me that CX is still not successfully selling the 53 J seats on a consistent basis. The solution to that problem, which means yield improvement, to that is add PEY by REMOVING extra J seats!!! Not by reducing seat count in Y!

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fyi jal and ana fly a even lower seat count 77w

Yea, this is absolutely correct on the 77H configuration. Frankly, I do not understand why CX configured 77H as they did because it's even MORE premium than 77A/77D, just with additional segmentation that comes at the expense of Y .

Look at these comps:
77A: 301 total seats. 6/57/00/238 F/J/Y+/Y.
77D: 297 total seats. 6/53/00/238 F/J/Y+/Y.
77H: 275 total seats. 6/53/34/182 F/J/Y+/Y.
77G: 340 total seats. 0/40/32/268 F/J/Y+/Y.

The 77G evolution makes sense to me (it's an admission that yields aren't as premium as CX expected, that F/J had gotten too premium for many routes, and there was yield enhancements to be had by growing Y class to increase total seat count).

77H does not. 77H is actually the MOST premium config that CX has! I might add that I do not know of ANY other major commercial carrier flying 777-300ERs with seat counts even close to as low as 275 for the same aircraft type. Anything under 300 is already very low. CX kept J seat count the same as 77D, just grew PEY at the expense of Y class. I think this business decision may end up being a mistake....I would've thought that CX would do better to add PEY at expense of J, not Y. Everything else the company is doing in their network seems to be an admission that their configs were simply too premium, yet they go ahead with 77H and make the most premium config of them all.

JFK is a perfect example.On JFK, which is probably on average the most expensive long-haul route in the CX network, you say it yourself - you get heaps of op-ups into J class, very frequently. Which tells me that CX is still not successfully selling the 53 J seats on a consistent basis. The solution to that problem, which means yield improvement, to that is add PEY by REMOVING extra J seats!!! Not by reducing seat count in Y!

i totally agree with you!
and not only JFK, also goes to all North America destinations with 77D/77H...
you can check the availability throughout the whole summer, it is always like that:
J9 C9 D9 I9 Y0 B0....
there are so many J-seats left unsold while Y is always full! you can hardly buy a Y-ticket now.
I do think CX should add more Y-seats and remove some of the J-seats for 77H
probably 41 J-seats (removing 3 rows) and adding 45 Y-seats (adding 5 rows) will be better for CX! (apart for CX251/250)
182 Y-class is too little for any CX routes

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fyi jal and ana fly a even lower seat count 77w

wow you're right, I didn't realize that. JAL has 272 and ANA has...gulp...215. Unbelievable. What a gamble on premium loads.

I'm still pretty amazed that for all CX's rhetoric about competing and how tough the environment is yadda yadda, they rolled out the 77H. I really had expected them to remove J seats for that config, not Y.

wow you're right, I didn't realize that. JAL has 272 and ANA has...gulp...215. Unbelievable. What a gamble on premium loads.

I'm still pretty amazed that for all CX's rhetoric about competing and how tough the environment is yadda yadda, they rolled out the 77H. I really had expected them to remove J seats for that config, not Y.

272 is the old config. Latest generation has 246 instead (and number should further decrease when the new C seats are rolled out early next year). Also NH is adding PY seats back so the 215 config will become 212 :)

Why shock? I predicted this. Who the hell wants to spend another $1500 USD just to get a seat that's one inch wider? If you are very rich you buy Business Class. Corporations that can afford premium cabin usually fly employees Business Class. Companies that are on budget flies employees Economy Class. The CX PE is doom in my opinion. If they rolled out 2-2-2, even 2-3-2, maybe it will get some people to think about it, but not 2-4-2 joke that they rolled out.

Agree, why should anyone in their right mind personally pay out of their own pocket over $1000 extra for PE to get the slight extra inch when food/service is almost similar to Y. Same $$ saved, I can have a great time on ground to make up the discomfort of the little squeeze in Y. Someone in CX is not thinking right as to what the customers will accept. You cannot take (fool) everyone (for a ride) all the time.

I predict, Y will be overbooked and PE will take the overflow as OP upgrade or the customers will be forced to purchase PE as a scare tactics when the plane is showing "full" in Y- PE or no seat is a tough choice, if passenger has to travel on a specific date.

One has to know the rules and on even field to play and win the same games played by airlines industry but usually the unsuspecting naive travellers are at a disadvantage.

Agree, why should anyone in their right mind personally pay out of their own pocket over $1000 extra for PE to get the slight extra inch when food/service is almost similar to Y. Same $$ saved, I can have a great time on ground to make up the discomfort of the little squeeze in Y. Someone in CX is not thinking right as to what the customers will accept. You cannot take (fool) everyone (for a ride) all the time.

I predict, Y will be overbooked and PE will take the overflow as OP upgrade or the customers will be forced to purchase PE as a scare tactics when the plane is showing "full" in Y- PE or no seat is a tough choice, if passenger has to travel on a specific date.

One has to know the rules and on even field to play and win the same games played by airlines industry but usually the unsuspecting naive travellers are at a disadvantage.

No worries. If CX go to the block Y route then those pax will simply switch to other airlines. The 2-4-2 PE is a horrible idea when they rolled it out. I can't believe CX pulled this amateurish crap. Again, maybe the other posters have a point: it seems Australian and European routes are reasonably priced, but the North American route are ridiculously prices. Anyway, the 2-4-2 is a big loser, and now the dumb pricing. Expect PE to be simply op-up cabin.

No worries. If CX go to the block Y route then those pax will simply switch to other airlines. The 2-4-2 PE is a horrible idea when they rolled it out. I can't believe CX pulled this amateurish crap. Again, maybe the other posters have a point: it seems Australian and European routes are reasonably priced, but the North American route are ridiculously prices. Anyway, the 2-4-2 is a big loser, and now the dumb pricing. Expect PE to be simply op-up cabin.
Why is it so horrible for CX but not for BA, AF or QF?

Why is it so horrible for CX but not for BA, AF or QF?

It's not so horrible. I suspect Cathay Boy, as a fellow North American flyer, is irritated that the pricing is so high to start. Ergo, clearly the product is a terrible mistake.

But I've suspected all along this would be the case, and I also think we should bide our time until the fares to North America come down. Y+ is more reasonable to Australia and Europe because other carriers already offered it. So CX could observe what fares the market will bear and price at that level to start.

They'll probably need to experiment a bit more on the NA routes where they're the only ones offering a product like this. While perhaps they could have started low and ratcheted their way up, maybe they decided to start high to create a consistent impression that you should expect to pay more for it and then quietly ratchet down over time. Who knows. I'm not an airline economist. And neither are most other people on this board.

I have a couple of rtw world leisure trips in the planning, whilst cx advertises that they may subst Econ with no compensation, I would prefer to book elsewhere or in business where what I am paying for is more guaranteed

Why shock? I predicted this. Who the hell wants to spend another $1500 USD just to get a seat that's one inch wider?

19.3" doesn't seem all that compelling.

Would be better if they managed 21" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-asia-miles/1317258-photos-new-premium-economy-economy-seats-14.html#209 . Though this seems like a hard ask on a 77W.

19.3" doesn't seem all that compelling.

Would be better if they managed 21" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-asia-miles/1317258-photos-new-premium-economy-economy-seats-14.html#209 . Though this seems like a hard ask on a 77W.

I would probably pay for 21", but never 19.3". One inch wider and I needed to pay a significant extra for it? Even if they offer it at $2500 USD JFK-HKG-JFK I wouldn't pay for it, especially if the Y seat is going to be a big improvement.

They'll probably need to experiment a bit more on the NA routes where they're the only ones offering a product like this. While perhaps they could have started low and ratcheted their way up, maybe they decided to start high to create a consistent impression that you should expect to pay more for it and then quietly ratchet down over time. Who knows. I'm not an airline economist. And neither are most other people on this board.

EVA Airlines has been offering PE to Taipei from New York/New Jersey for years.

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fyi jal and ana fly a even lower seat count 77w

Yeah, NH's 77Ws are configured F8 J77 (!!!) W24 Y138 for a total of 247. JL's 77Ws are even more "premium": F8 J77 W46 Y115 for a total of 246.

It's not so horrible. I suspect Cathay Boy, as a fellow North American flyer, is irritated that the pricing is so high to start. Ergo, clearly the product is a terrible mistake.
On that basis, I guess going to 1-1-1 in F in the 773 (compared to most carriers at 1-2-1) was a terrible mistake because they want $25k r/t for NY-HK. And there always seems to be plenty of availability (for awards) in that cabin, but nobody's complaining.

I would probably pay for 21", but never 19.3". One inch wider and I needed to pay a significant extra for it?Well, one extra inch between the armrests and maybe another 1.5" separation between seats means I won't be bumping shoulders and elbows with a stranger for 16 hours. That is priceless. I'm not exactly svelte, but my bum does fit fine in a coach seat, it's the shoulders that are a problem.

Just bought PE class to HKG recently, and the only reason i did was because PE was $100CAD more expensive the Economy (which was selling around $2200 -$2400 for my desired flights)...

Just bought PE class to HKG recently, and the only reason i did was because PE was $100CAD more expensive the Economy (which was selling around $2200 -$2400 for my desired flights)...

Which means the Y fares had been heavily inflated for the low difference with PE only $100 more (or PE was heavily discounted which is very unlikely) was and in strong contradiction to the words of Cathay Pacific Chief Operating Officer Ivan Chu.
QUOTE: "the cost of a premium economy ticket will be 50 to 80 percent higher than for a standard economy ticket, Cathay Pacific Chief Operating Officer Ivan Chu said that Cathay is stressing the "premium" over "economy."

SOURCE:
http://www.cnngo.com/explorations/life/cathay-pacific-new-premium-economy-class-takes-843613

Actually I have to disagree on the sentiment here that PE is a bad product with unwanted price point.

I agree companies probably will go C/J or Y and overlooking PE entirely, but for personal travels, I find the price point of PE very reasonable. A J seat is $6k for my SF-HKG flight, $1k for Y, but only $2k for PE. I will pay as much money as I can to get the best seat, but oh boys my wife will kill me if I pay $6k for a seat. Yeah the seat is not much wider, but for me the extra inches and recline are the MOST important thing. I am not big, but rather tall, so length is important to me.

Why shock? I predicted this. Who the hell wants to spend another $1500 USD just to get a seat that's one inch wider? If you are very rich you buy Business Class. Corporations that can afford premium cabin usually fly employees Business Class. Companies that are on budget flies employees Economy Class. The CX PE is doom in my opinion. If they rolled out 2-2-2, even 2-3-2, maybe it will get some people to think about it, but not 2-4-2 joke that they rolled out.

AMEN

CX Boy and I have our (massive) differences but I cannot agree more on this. It's just a marketing gimmick.

Right now there is no differentiation between upgrading from Y to J or from PE to J. If and when they only allow upgrades to J from PE (is that what BA does?) or differentiate the amount of miles needed, then there should be greater demand for PE. Also, if op-ups are not processed from Y to J (seems the case from what I read here) then perhaps people wishing for op-up might buy PE.