Credit Card Programs - Apply for Citi Card again after 30 days

I think this should have been discussed over quite some time in the forum but if possible I would like to confirm again the current rules of Citi.

I kept hearing that if one applied for a Citi card, he/she won't get approved for another Citi card within 90 days. So basically one can only apply for another after 90 days.

But many mentioned one can apply a Citi AA Business card 60 days after applying for the Citi AA personal card, that got me confused as I thought we need to wait 90 days. Just wonder if I am getting the info wrong and there is some other trick to it?

Also I heard that when apply for more than one Citi cards, one should keep the application time as close together as possible, let's say the same day or next day and at most 30 days. So if I have applied for a Citi card on 6/25 and apply for another card today, is there a separate pull or will Citi approve or there's no such 30 days rule?

Thanks in advance for all the time and help. Have a good day.

To apply for two citi cards you need to do it same day and preferably back to back. If not, you'll be stuck waiting the 60 (business)/90 (personal) days you mentioned in your post.

Read this.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/14386923-post2.html

Also I heard that when apply for more than one Citi cards, one should keep the application time as close together as possible, let's say the same day or next day and at most 30 days. So if I have applied for a Citi card on 6/25 and apply for another card today, is there a separate pull or will Citi approve or there's no such 30 days rule?

Thanks in advance for all the time and help. Have a good day.

Why wouldn't you read the Post No.1 of the AA card thread when you have asked similar question(s) before and were pointed to that direction? Right on the very top of the post there is a link to the previous long-running thread which the post no.2 has a very detailed explanation / instruction on why / how things should be properly done.

To apply for two citi cards you need to do it same day and preferably back to back. If not, you'll be stuck waiting the 60 (business)/90 (personal) days you mentioned in your post.

You are as confused as the OP.

Read this.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/14386923-post2.html

^ @:-)

Those who dont spend time to read and understand it, would forever be confused.

You are as confused as the OP.

To apply for two citi cards you need to do it same day and preferably back to back. If not, you'll be stuck waiting the 60 (business)/90 (personal) days you mentioned in your post.

Care to elaborate? I took the following from post #2...

There are two different application timeframes that are important in this offer. Citi only allows 2 applications for ANY Citi card within a 60 day timeframe. Citi only allows 1 application for a business card every 90 days. So if you apply for a Sears card and an AA Visa, you have to wait 60+ days before applying for the business card. If you applied and were denied for just a business card, you have to wait 90+ days before trying again.

I read my post and this post as saying the same thing (I should have clarified that I meant two personal cards upfront), but I may be missing a nuance of which I am not aware.

Semi-related question:

I got 2 Citi card earlier this year (Visa and Amex). Did the spend, got the bonus.

Got an email touting the biz card. I believe my credit rating will easily stand it, but exactly what do they require as proof that you are a real business? I think the last time I did it I was a one-man shop with little or no profits, etc. As far as they knew, anyhow. :)

Do they normally require Schedule C or P/L statements or the like, or do they just take your word for it?

TIA

1) Citi only allows 2 applications every 60/65 days. This governs ALL cards regardless the genre / personal / business.

This rule is ABOVE all other citi rules that govern different type of cards.

2) Citi only allows 1 application of business card for the SAME business every 90 days. Though in practice it seems apply to any business card even though for different biz.

3) Because of the enforcement of the "first time customer only", the only chance you would get 2 AAdvantage personal cards without being rejected based on the first timer restriction, is to apply 2 personal AAdvantage cards simultaneously - in the hope that the system would only see 1.

4) Citi has separate entities for personal card and business card. In addition, HHonor Visa seems to come from a 3rd entity. No idea about Citi-managed Sears card (who wants that card anyway?)
Only inquiries coming from the SAME entity with identical address on the same day would be merged by the credit reporting agency. Therefore one should take it into account when trying to minimize the inquiries on one's credit report, pairing your Citi applications carefully!

Rule 1) is the Cardinal Rule.

Business card also is subject to Rule 2), in addition to Rule 1).

And that's different from my advice how? Certainly much more detail, but the point is the same.

1)3) Because of the enforcement of the "first time customer only", the only chance you would get 2 AAdvantage personal cards without being rejected based on the first timer restriction, is to apply 2 personal AAdvantage cards simultaneously - in the hope that the system would only see 1.I presume you've done your homework, but:

1. I applied for the Visa and Amex the same day (IIRC) and the same browser. Was instantly approved on both.

2. I've had both cards before and still got the bonii, so the 'enforcement' of the "first time customer only" rule is spotty at best.

3. Yes, it was more than 60 days from the last time I had the cards.

To apply for two citi cards you need to do it same day and preferably back to back. If not, you'll be stuck waiting the 60 (business)/90 (personal) days you mentioned in your post.

And that's different from my advice how? Certainly much more detail, but the point is the same.

You are guaranteed for a decline if you apply a 2nd business card 60 days after the previous
one.

You do not need to wait for 90 days lapse between applying personal cards.

You got the very basic rules totally reversed and you do not even realized it. :rolleyes:

I presume you've done your homework, but:

You dont need to pay attention to what I post. Do whatever you think working for you... These rules are very well tested and work for majority of people. Of course there is always YMMV element, especially when it comes to Citi.


1. I applied for the Visa and Amex the same day (IIRC) and the same browser. Was instantly approved on both.

Many people have done that. It depends on one's computer set up, the 2 browsers are not a must but it prevents cookies migrated to another applications. It is a safer approach for those who are not well-verse with the set up of their computers.


2. I've had both cards before and still got the bonii, so the 'enforcement' of the "first time customer only" rule is spotty at best.

How long ago you had the cards?

Have you been able to apply a second pair within the same year, recently? If you have, then you would be the extremely lucky few. Though I have a hunch that it is NOT the case.

What we are talking here is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and N time of the AAdvantage cards - this has become very difficult since Citi started enforcing the first timer clause started in 2009 but getting much more restrictive from 2011.

FYI, since 2012, it seems even 18 months lapse from previous successful application would not guarantee you to become "new" again... There are many many data points that people were declined even at the 18 to 19 months mark, but were successful at 21+ months mark.

I can tell you that the time lapse needed can vary from 11 months to 22 months based on ACTUAL cases - take your pick and try your luck.

You should read the long running thread (the 2nd version of it) in the Miles Buzz forum to update your knowledge which is obviously not very up to speed.


3. Yes, it was more than 60 days from the last time I had the cards.

Again, please read the Post One on the AAdvantage card in Miles Buzz, in particular, read the link right at the top of the Post One - that would lead you to the Previous version of AAdvantage card, and hopefully you would finally understand how the environment has evolved.

You are guaranteed for a decline if you apply a 2nd business card 60 days after the previous
one.

You do not need to wait for 90 days lapse between applying personal cards.

You got the very basic rules totally reversed and you do not even realized it. :rolleyes:

Thank you for the clarification. I was trying to help quickly without doing the research and as I said...

I may be missing a nuance of which I am not aware.

However, the OP's original question was applying for a business card 60 days after a personal card (a fact I should have included in my first response). In this case, the 60 days does apply to the business card and I do admit that the 90 day personal card comment was probably wrong.

Why wouldn't you read the Post No.1 of the AA card thread when you have asked similar question(s) before and were pointed to that direction?
You are as confused as the OP.
Those who dont spend time to read and understand it, would forever be confused.
... to update your knowledge which is obviously not very up to speed.
You got the very basic rules totally reversed and you do not even realized it. :rolleyes:
It is possible to write explanatory sentences without the implied "..., you moron!" at the end.
3) Because of the enforcement of the "first time customer only", the only chance you would get 2 AAdvantage personal cards without being rejected based on the first timer restriction, is to apply 2 personal AAdvantage cards simultaneously - in the hope that the system would only see 1.
My wife applied for the City Master Card last month and got it. She applied for the Visa last week and it was approved this week.

getting much more restrictive from 2011.

FYI, since 2012, it seems even 18 months lapse from previous successful application would not guarantee you to become "new" again... There are many many data points that people were declined even at the 18 to 19 months mark, but were successful at 21+ months mark.

.



Just from my own experiences which I had posted, I was declined at 18mts and again at 22mts, but took a chance at 26mts and finally "approved" as a new member again. So set the new time clock for roughly 2 years+ after application.
But only problem I foresee is that all could change (for the worst) 2 yrs from now if more restrictions are put in place. Then the age of churning may finally be over by then. I hope not as I'll go into depression.

My wife applied for the City Master Card last month and got it. She applied for the Visa last week and it was approved this week.

The majority of folks is far less lucky than your wife. My comment is for the general rules that based on empirical data have posted so far, apply to 95% or even more, of the applicants.

See below the fresh data.

Just from my own experiences which I had posted, I was declined at 18mts and again at 22mts, but took a chance at 26mts and finally "approved" as a new member again. So set the new time clock for roughly 2 years+ after application.
But only problem I foresee is that all could change (for the worst) 2 yrs from now if more restrictions are put in place. Then the age of churning may finally be over by then. I hope not as I'll go into depression.

I am afraid your experience would become more and more common in coming future. There are still a very few lucky souls can get their cards with very little time lapse, but the data points since beginning of this year, has heavily skewed to the 20+ months side of the range - your case is one of the worst scenarios posted, no doubt.

There are also some odd scenarios - they are odd because the data points are far and few in between, and are outside the usual path folks would take...

1) If you have the $450 AA Executive card, it seems you are not being restricted as those who only apply the 1st year fee waived cards.

2) If you forgo the high sign up bonus, i.e. the 40 to 50K varieties, but take the 35K or even below, offers, because you are being rejected multiple times on the first timer clause when trying for the higher bonuses, you seem to have a much higher chance to get approved on the 35K or below offers.

May be Citi has designed its system to:

1) give the high paying customers a break.

2) does not attach a filter list to the low sign up bonus cards.

Just some thought to ponder.

2. I've had both cards before and still got the bonii, so the 'enforcement' of the "first time customer only" rule is spotty at best.
Citi has weird definitions. "First time" means "no successful AA card app within the past 12 to 20 (sometimes maybe even 26?) months. It does not really mean "first time ever in the history of AA cards".

(Basically, their credit department sets policies for their computers to enforce, and then their marketing department "simplifies" that into a stating of the policy simply as "first-time customer only".)

3. Yes, it was more than 60 days from the last time I had the cards.
It does not matter when you last had the cards. It maters only when you last applied for the cards. Citi does not look at whether you currently have an AA card or when you last held an AA card, they only look at when you last successfully applied for an AA card.

And then, separately, they also check that you have not applied for more than 2 cards of any type in the past 60ish (65ish) days.

(In case you're not aware, Citi counts 60 days weirdly. So 65ish days is safe, 60 days or even 61 or even 62 days may not be safe! So while 60 days is the official policy, 65ish days is a better rule of thumb.)

2) If you forgo the high sign up bonus, i.e. the 40 to 50K varieties, but take the 35K or even below, offers, because you are being rejected multiple times on the first timer clause when trying for the higher bonuses, you seem to have a much higher chance to get approved on the 35K or below offers.My cards were for the 50K bonuses. My wife's were for the 30-35K bonuses (I forget which). I don't make plans for squirreling away that many miles, not only because I don't know what's happening with AA vis-a-vis BK, US, etc., but also because I tend to gather miles for a specific trip, usually involving anywhere from 3 or 4 to 10 people (big family reunions in Europe). I shove them in Y and I/spouse travel over in J/F.

Besides, I don't have a 20-30 year horizon to look at. :)

30-35K is not that far from 40-50K, and some necessary spend (taxes, HO insurance, etc.) gets the initial hill clumb (climbed?) and after that it's just a matter of putting more on whatever card is active at the moment. I can always dump some miles in from SPG, HH, etc., depending on who's running a bonus.

I usually start planning these things a year in advance, so I can afford to play a bit of the waiting game.

Citi has weird definitions. "First time" means "no successful AA card app within the past 12 to 20 (sometimes maybe even 26?) months. It does not really mean "first time ever in the history of AA cards".

.)


Correct as I had suggested that 24+ months is safer. Reason why I said that is in my case, I applied and was rejected at 18mt and 22mts and finally approved at 26mts. Reason why it matters is b/c all this required 3 hard pulls to finally get the cards. So don't take the chance and go with 24+ mts and save the hard pulls for applying for other cards. lesson learn for me as I was declined for other cards because of the extra hard pulls.

Correct as I had suggested that 24+ months is safer. Reason why I said that is in my case, I applied and was rejected at 18mt and 22mts and finally approved at 26mts. Reason why it matters is b/c all this required 3 hard pulls to finally get the cards. So don't take the chance and go with 24+ mts and save the hard pulls for applying for other cards. lesson learn for me as I was declined for other cards because of the extra hard pulls.

Very good points but very few can see that.

The goal is to make it a high probability bid when you apply - so you dont waste the hard pull for nothing, and such wasteful hard pulls also negatively affect your other chances.

Thanks everyone for all your great comments and tips. Sorry I strayed away from this after posting as I was away for some time. Now I am back to the situation and let me explaining more on what's been happening.

A little more than a month ago I applied for both Citi AA Visa and AE, the Visa got approved but not the AE as it says I have too many recent inquiries with Experian (wonder why the Visa got approved then?)

Then I sent in a letter but I just called to check the outcome and Citi showed they haven't received any letter so I have to resend.

Now the dilemma is it's been more than 30 days since my app and the rep already said they don't have access to my report anymore, so should I resend risking another pull on Experian? But if I don't resend then I may not be able to get the Citi AA AE as I have already got the Citi AA Visa. Just wonder what's your comment, should I wait another 90 days for the Citi AA AE or I won't even have a chance by then? Please help, thanks :)

I am hoping someone has any insight on this.

I applied for and was approved for a Citi AA visa in March.

I then applied for a Citi Business card in June. I wasn't denied, per se, but I wasn't approved as I don't have a business.

Can I apply for another personal card now, or does the fact that I applied for a business card reset the waiting period? and does anyone know if not getting approved due to not having a buisness results in a "denial"? or does it just wipe it from my record?

I am hoping someone has any insight on this.

I applied for and was approved for a Citi AA visa in March.

I then applied for a Citi Business card in June. I wasn't denied, per se, but I wasn't approved as I don't have a business.

Can I apply for another personal card now, or does the fact that I applied for a business card reset the waiting period? and does anyone know if not getting approved due to not having a buisness results in a "denial"? or does it just wipe it from my record?

You cannot apply for another Citi AA personal card for 12 to 26 months after March (the last time you successfully applied for a Citi AA personal card).

The only way to get two personal cards in less time is to apply for both of them at virtually the same time (the so-called "two browser type trick"). If you wait even a day between the first personal Citi AA card app and the second one, you get denied. (So since you didn't do that in March, you have to wait a long time before you can even apply for one card again. But remember this, so that the next time you apply for two at a time, if you're really want to get two!)

You are getting multiple Citi clocks confused.

The Citi AA personal card clock I just described is one.

A totally separate one is: No more than 2 Citi AA apps of any type every 65 days. (But, in view of the Citi AA personal card clock described above which is way longer, the 65 days clock only helps if you're trying to apply for a non-AA Citi card right now!)

A yet totally separate clock is: 90 (I'd suggest 95) days between business card applications. (Keep this one in mind in case you want to try for the business card again. The business card is your only option until at least sometime well into next year.)

Thanks for the explanation! So if I understand this correctly, I can still obtain a NON-AA Citi card, right? I was thinking about applying for the Citi Thank you Premier.




You cannot apply for another Citi AA personal card for 12 to 26 months after March (the last time you successfully applied for a Citi AA personal card).

The only way to get two personal cards in less time is to apply for both of them at virtually the same time (the so-called "two browser type trick"). If you wait even a day between the first personal Citi AA card app and the second one, you get denied. (So since you didn't do that in March, you have to wait a long time before you can even apply for one card again. But remember this, so that the next time you apply for two at a time, if you're really want to get two!)

You are getting multiple Citi clocks confused.

The Citi AA personal card clock I just described is one.

A totally separate one is: No more than 2 Citi AA apps of any type every 65 days. (But, in view of the Citi AA personal card clock described above which is way longer, the 65 days clock only helps if you're trying to apply for a non-AA Citi card right now!)

A yet totally separate clock is: 90 (I'd suggest 95) days between business card applications. (Keep this one in mind in case you want to try for the business card again. The business card is your only option until at least sometime well into next year.)

Thanks for the explanation! So if I understand this correctly, I can still obtain a NON-AA Citi card, right? I was thinking about applying for the Citi Thank you Premier.
Yes. You can alternatively apply for one or two-at-a-time of this card if you wish (since I notice you're already an HHonors member):

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/1219687-50-000-citi-hilton-hhonors-visa.html

(or apply for one of those and the TY Premier).

Unlike the AA cards, the Citi HHonors Visa Signature is "quickly" churnable. Unless you have a lot of spend each month you can put on credit cards, the spend requirements for the bonus will probably slow you down more than Citi's overall "only 2 personal card applications every 65 days" rule. :)

Great. this will open up my app strategy, which is coming up shortly. I just have one follow up question.

you mentioned I could apply for the TY premier and the hhonors card. I've read on these forums that sometimes they don't consolidate the both apps into one pull. if this is turns out to be the case, does this conflict with the general guidelines of credit card apps which is only apply for one personal card from each issuer at a time?

in other words, is it ok to apply for those two cards (TY premier and HHonors) in one "churn"?

there are so many rules and guidelines around here to keep track of. sometimes I don't know which ones are applicable to one another or which are exempt...


Yes. You can alternatively apply for one or two-at-a-time of this card if you wish (since I notice you're already an HHonors member):

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/1219687-50-000-citi-hilton-hhonors-visa.html

(or apply for one of those and the TY Premier).

Unlike the AA cards, the Citi HHonors Visa Signature is "quickly" churnable. Unless you have a lot of spend each month you can put on credit cards, the spend requirements for the bonus will probably slow you down more than Citi's overall "only 2 personal card applications every 65 days" rule. :)

Great. this will open up my app strategy, which is coming up shortly. I just have one follow up question.

you mentioned I could apply for the TY premier and the hhonors card. I've read on these forums that sometimes they don't consolidate the both apps into one pull. if this is turns out to be the case, does this conflict with the general guidelines of credit card apps which is only apply for one personal card from each issuer at a time?

in other words, is it ok to apply for those two cards (TY premier and HHonors) in one "churn"?

there are so many rules and guidelines around here to keep track of. sometimes I don't know which ones are applicable to one another or which are exempt...

Yes. They are still subject to the no more than 2 Citicard applications every 60/65 days.

On top of that, HHonor and TYP cards are administered by 2 DIFFERENT entities within Citi - so if you apply them together, you dont gain any benefit by way of having the hard pulls merged into one by the reporting bureau.
The merger of hard pulls has NOTHING to do with Citi - Citi still pulls TWO inquiries on you, but if the inquiries are from the SAME entity with same name, same address, same phone number, etc. on the same day, the reporting agency would merge them into one inquiry. Since HHonor and TYP are from different entities, you lose this benefit from the reporting agency.

It is better to apply 2 HHonor cards by themselves, and then 2 other TYP cards by themselves.

You do not need to wait for 90 days lapse between applying personal cards.




Does that mean apply for additional personal cards without cancelling my 2 existing personal cards?