Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - FRA-TLV going from L/H to S/H - How do you feel about it? [merged]

while looking at the booking system at lufthansa.com

it seems no more F on TLV-FRA

while looking at the booking system at lufthansa.com

it seems no more F on TLV-FRA

Yes, there's no F on the A32S that will be serving the route.

Yes, there's no F on the A32S that will be serving the route.

it seems as it's going to be A330 on TLV-FRA and A320 TLV-MUC

the lufthansa.com/expedia systems and the winter schedule 12-13 topic in this group show A330.

but for some reason it's also been published (at an Israeli website) they are changing all routs to A320/1

but still....not able to book F on TLV-FRA. (but for some reason it lets you book F on A320 TLV-MUC this winter:))

while looking at the booking system at lufthansa.com

it seems no more F on TLV-FRA

Ah crap.
We're booked JFK-FRA-TLV in F on 12/28-29 returning 1/6.
Still showing a 330 but F is now zero'd out.
4 hours in a 320/321 Y seat masquerading as J? I don't think so.

I think if true (and I read this on the israeli new site as well) it's a really bad move on LH's behalf.

The route has offered a L/H product for years and while I'm sure people can live with losing F on a 4 hour flight, losing the L/H business is a very different matter.

I know plenty of Senators traveling the route for connections and i can't see them sticking with LH if the route goes S/H.

FRA TLV will stay three class, too much business at stake, LH knows that.

To the original question, LH currently has 6 340-300 aircraft configured to be 2 class, they do fixed service to various destinations already.

The new two class 744 and 343 (with new C) are yet to be refitted into a two class config, so you won't see any appearing in the schedules till the Summer 2013 plan is published.

FRA TLV will stay three class, too much business at stake, LH knows that.

To the original question, LH currently has 6 340-300 aircraft configured to be 2 class, they do fixed service to various destinations already.

The new two class 744 and 343 (with new C) are yet to be refitted into a two class config, so you won't see any appearing in the schedules till the Summer 2013 plan is published.


do you have any idea why you cant book F in the LH website for this winter on TLV-FRA?

do all LH A330 have F class?

do all LH A330 have F class?

Yes, they do.

do you have any idea why you cant book F in the LH website for this winter on TLV-FRA?

Good question. Can't book F and F is zero'd out across the board in December and January. Oliver, this smells like they are indeed going to dump F and just haven't updated the schedule to sub 320/321s.

http://sfo777.smugmug.com/Other/Lufthansa/i-jC38kqP/0/L/Screen-shot-2012-07-13-at-L.png

I tried booking F on LH.com and I got this...

http://sfo777.smugmug.com/Other/Lufthansa/i-B4BNMDD/0/L/Screen-shot-2012-07-13-at-L.png

FRA TLV will stay three class, too much business at stake, LH knows Like I said in another thread, I think people can live without F on the 4 hour flight, but going from a L/H to a S/H product is a very different story.

TLV is the only destination in that area they serve with longhaul, recently CAI and previously AMM lost the widebody service. If there is revenue to be had, its in the TLV sector, surely LH knows that. I doubt the DL/CO(UA)/US direct TATL services have hit LH that badly. Who knows. If Easyjet and co kill the yield to TLV ex Europe then filling the widebody and making money on it may convince LH to deploy their aircraft some place else. We all don't know or see the figures they have.

Like I said in another thread, I think people can live without F on the 4 hour flight, but going from a L/H to a S/H product is a very different story.

+1
I can live with long-haul Business from FRA but no way would I put up with 4+ hours in a Y seat sold as C. At least LX still offers long-haul C and BA has three class F on one of its daily LHR flights.

If there is revenue to be had, its in the TLV sector, surely LH knows that. I doubt the DL/CO(UA)/US direct TATL services have hit LH that badly. Who knows. If Easyjet and co kill the yield to TLV ex Europe then filling the widebody and making money on it may convince LH to deploy their aircraft some place else. We all don't know or see the figures they have.

Makes sense and perhaps this is what we're now seeing.

TLV is the only destination in that area they serve with longhaul, recently CAI and previously AMM lost the widebody service. If there is revenue to be had, its in the TLV sector, surely LH knows that. I doubt the DL/CO(UA)/US direct TATL services have hit LH that badly. Who knows. If Easyjet and co kill the yield to TLV ex Europe then filling the widebody and making money on it may convince LH to deploy their aircraft some place else. We all don't know or see the figures they have.

I am asking myself if LH maybe canibalized itself by introducing MUC with a long haul plane. Why bother flying via FRA if I can fly via MUC and I am sure a big portion of european connecting traffic decided to fly via MUC instead on the day flight. What I hope they will do is to offer BER-TLV and MUC-TLV with short haul planes catering to leasure / non premium traffic with goal to operate them as profitable O & D traffic and continue to offer a premium service with a 3 class product on both daily flights via FRA anythig else would not make sense considering the high ratio of HON's and SEN's living in Israel.

I am asking myself if LH maybe canibalized itself by introducing MUC with a long haul plane. Why bother flying via FRA if I can fly via MUC and I am sure a big portion of european connecting traffic decided to fly via MUC instead on the day flight. What I hope they will do is to offer BER-TLV and MUC-TLV with short haul planes catering to leasure / non premium traffic with goal to operate them as profitable O & D traffic and continue to offer a premium service with a 3 class product on both daily flights via FRA anythig else would not make sense considering the high ratio of HON's and SEN's living in Israel.

The MUC-TLV flight is indeed changing to the short-haul 321, effective October 28.

The MUC-TLV flight is indeed changing to the short-haul 321, effective October 28.

this is a fact, the question is the rumours about the FRA flights

Yup. Just dumped my $12,000 LH tickets for Iberia J.
OK, it's not TATL F and I'll miss the FCL/FCT but it is long-haul A340 J all the way to TLV.
And I'm saving money using AA miles.

by the way...last time i checked (last year) Iberia J S/H on A319 to TLV has nice J seats (but if you got the flight with the A340 that's even better)


http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/Iberia/Iberia-A319-business3.jpg

by the way...last time i checked (last year) Iberia J S/H on A319 to TLV has nice J seats (but if you got the flight with the A340 that's even better)


http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/Iberia/Iberia-A319-business3.jpg

These seats are 10 times better than what LH offers in their NEK seats to CAI and BEY and AMM.

by the way...last time i checked (last year) Iberia J S/H on A319 to TLV has nice J seats (but if you got the flight with the A340 that's even better)[/url]

I can confirm the Iberia J on A319 is quite good - not a LH product by any mean but not bad at all. I manage to sleep quite well in that seat when taking the late flight from MAD to TLV. The A340 is flown earlier in the day - much better proper LH J seat.

There are some rumours on the BA board that BA will shortly go to a 321 for LHR-TLV. But apparently in a new configuration, 2 class, with fully flat seats. Seems to be a new mid-haul product resulting from the bmi integration.

There are some rumours on the BA board that BA will shortly go to a 321 for LHR-TLV. But apparently in a new configuration, 2 class, with fully flat seats. Seems to be a new mid-haul product resulting from the bmi integration.


Indeed, plus the rumours say flights will go 3 times daily.

This is a very different story than LH's move (if true) as LHR are talking about downgrading the route to a S/H service.

FRA TLV will stay three class, too much business at stake, LH knows that.

TLV is the only destination in that area they serve with longhaul,

Lufthansa just confirmed on Facebook that FRA-TLV will be with A321, too:

Dear Ariel, with the beginning of the winter flight schedule on October 28th. Lufthansa will offer direct flights to Tel Aviv from Berlin, Frankfurt and Munich on Airbus A321 aircraft. / John

Lufthansa just confirmed on Facebook that FRA-TLV will be with A321, too:

Well, this just plain sucks. Where in the region will they still operate three class planes? I know of RUH, DXB, and AUH. Anywhere else? And is there reason to believe that any of these destinations will be changed as well?

Lufthansa just confirmed on Facebook that FRA-TLV will be with A321, too:

This is absolute madness. All they need to do is take a look at Air France and their market position with their Cont product (A320) on CDG-TLV. Zilch.

Let's just hope that Swiss doesn't lose their mind as well.

If this is true LH's booking site has not been updated. Dummy bookings on random dates in November show LH686/687 and LH690/691 being operated by the A333 while LH688/689 MUC-TLV will be on the A321.

If this is true LH's booking site has not been updated. Dummy bookings on random dates in November show LH686/687 and LH690/691 being operated by the A333 while LH688/689 MUC-TLV will be on the A321.

I've seen that, too.
But I do not dare to contradict....

Lufthansa just confirmed on Facebook that FRA-TLV will be with A321, too:

Grrrrrrr....terrible

does any one know if it's just a change for the winter time table. or something permanent?

and now also BA?! terrible. i'm not a big flyer but i save miles for J\F flights to Europe from TLV...

First my OK-Plus account became pretty worthless so i had to use them on KLM crappy J, and last week LH took my dream of F....and now BA!!

not good couple of week's for Photographer2012....

I wonder if LH will implement something similar to the AF offer for flights without "P"(First) class: 300 EUR to use ground services if you are Plat (=SEN) or 800 EUR otherwise. It could be a way to keep a few customers in the FCL and FCT after they cull 6000 HONs in 2014 ;)

Lufthansa just confirmed on Facebook that FRA-TLV will be with A321, too:

LH should install better C class seating to TLV, CAI, AMM and BEY similar to what BA will introduce on these routes on their A321:

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-confirms-fully-flat-seating-on-bmi-a321s

Otherwise, they will lose a large number of their premium customers, HONs and also me ;)

LH should install better C class seating to TLV, CAI, AMM and BEY similar to what BA will introduce on these routes on their A321:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ba-confirms-fully-flat-seating-on-bmi-a321s
Otherwise, they will lose a large number of their premium customers, HONs and also me ;)

Yup. As I mentioned above, I cancelled our LH rez and booked IB thru MAD.

With LH and BA dropping F to TLV it certainly looks like the demand for paid F to/from TLV is weak? As for the 'premium C on narrowbody' concept... OS tried it to the middle east, and it flopped big time, good luck to BA if they can get it right. BD certainly tried hard with a better A32S product. LX is already subbing A32S with a NEK product to TLV whenever they have tech issues with the A340/330, so that tells a certain story.

LH award booking system now shows A321 on TLV-FRA and also the new timetable with the early departure from FRA

it also let's you book F award on the A321:)

Strange, regular F sales is not possible anymore:

>tn21novfratlv/alh
TN21NOVFRATLV/ALH
** AMADEUS TIMETABLE - TN ** TLV TEL AVIV YAFO.IL 21NOV12 28NOV12
1 LH 686 D FRA 1 TLV 3 0935 1435 0 28OCT12 28MAR13 321 4:00
2 LH 690 D FRA 1 TLV 3 1925 0035+1 0 28OCT12 27MAR13 321 4:10
3 LH 170 7 FRA 1 TXL 0645 0755 0 CONNECT TXL 321
LH 682 7 TXL TLV 3 0845 1345 0 11NOV12 23DEC12 320 6:00
4 LH 098 X35 FRA 1 MUC 2 0700 0805 0 CONNECT MUC 321
LH 688 X35 MUC 2 TLV 3 0925 1405 0 05NOV12 20DEC12 321 6:05
5 LH 070 124 FRA 1 MUC 2 0630 0735 0 CONNECT MUC 321
LH 688 124 MUC 2 TLV 3 0925 1405 0 05NOV12 20DEC12 321 6:35
6 LH 174 6 FRA 1 TXL 0745 0855 0 CONNECT TXL 321
LH 682 6 TXL TLV 3 1120 1620 0 10NOV12 15DEC12 320 7:35
>ad21novfratlv/alh/kc,f
AD21NOVFRATLV/ALH/KC,F
** AMADEUS AVAILABILITY - AD ** TLV TEL AVIV YAFO.IL 125 WE 21NOV 0000
1 LH 686 J9 C9 DL ZL P3 RL /FRA 1 TLV 3 0935 1435 E0/321 4:00
2 LH 690 J9 C9 D9 Z5 P3 R2 /FRA 1 TLV 3 1925 0035+1E0/321 4:10
>

There is no O inventory either:

AD21NOVFRATLV/ALH/CO,I
** AMADEUS AVAILABILITY - AD ** TLV TEL AVIV YAFO.IL 125 WE 21NOV 0000
1 LH 686 IL /FRA 1 TLV 3 0935 1435 E0/321 4:00
2 LH 690 I3 /FRA 1 TLV 3 1925 0035+1E0/321 4:10

Confirmed:

FRA-TLV goes 321

BKK will go 346 and keep First Class:

http://airlineroute.net/2012/07/19/lh-w12update4/

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion (other than a few posts in the "who will lose First" thread) here about the upcoming loss of Long Haul product on the FRA-TLV route.

BA are downgrading the LHR-TLV to an A321 but with a proper business class and lie flat seats, better Economy class, and three daily flight yet we're all moaning about the move bitterly...

LH are properly downgrading the route to an A320/1 with European configuration meaning no proper C, after years of running 744s and A340 with proper C and F yet it hasn't created even a fraction of the "noise" it has on the BA forum (thread about TLV changes now reaching over 300 posts...).

So any of you TLV route regulars, how do you feel about it? I for one cannot see myself choosing LH for future travel and if I were wanting *A I would go for LX (well at least while they still offer a proper L/H product.

It looked to me (maybe I wrong), that BA was 'adding' an A321 on the TLV route. LH runs an A32S from BER, from FRA/MUC they run 747/A340s

Edit: just seen the changes, FRA-TLV will be A330 twice daily, MUC-TLV will be A321 5/weekly

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion (other than a few posts in the "who will lose First" thread) here about the upcoming loss of Long Haul product on the FRA-TLV route.

BA are downgrading the LHR-TLV to an A321 but with a proper business class and lie flat seats, better Economy class, and three daily flight yet we're all moaning about the move bitterly...

LH are properly downgrading the route to an A320/1 with European configuration meaning no proper C, after years of running 744s and A340 with proper C and F yet it hasn't created even a fraction of the "noise" it has on the BA forum (thread about TLV changes now reaching over 300 posts...).

So any of you TLV route regulars, how do you feel about it? I for one cannot see myself choosing LH for future travel and if I were wanting *A I would go for LX (well at least while they still offer a proper L/H product.

As a TLV-based SEN (and HON for past 4 years) I was quite surprised also that there hasn't been so much complaining. For me, there have been a number of changes which have reduced by use of LH from TLV recently, so I have reduced bookings this year (mostly towards BA...);

1. Reduced earning in Z class from September
2. Inability (possibly) to upgrade from Z class using my stack of e-Vouchers
3. Increased spending for business class awards to USA/Far East (last year)
4. Finding FRA frustrating, esp TLV gate which has no lounge after security
5. Reduction of HON bonus from 50 to 25% a few years ago prevented me from renewing HON.
6. If I was still HON, the lack of booking guarantee in D would be very frustrating.

So I guess it's 'death my 1000 cuts'.

My preference for past year has been LX - have made most of my trips on LX as I prefer the seat and transfer in ZRH. I am now more concerned about the impact of LH refugees on limitted LX busioness class seats, than on the loss of LH themselves. Especially Sunday TLV-ZRH and Thursday night ZRH-TLV will be very tight, not sure if I will be able to get reasonable D/J fares then (or upgrade using e-Vouchers).

Having said that, the BA alternative is suddenly less attractive also...

Forgot to add, that one of the biggest problems with the changes (IMO) is the changed timing for LH690 FRA-TLV, to 1930 I think. It is no longer possible to have a full work day outside FRA and connect to overnight flight on Thursday. I used to do that a lot from OSL, HEL, ARN, MUC and many others (even LHR). The new timing makes that impossible, and I don't like returning on Friday in winter (have had some bad experiences). May need to return via LX, or fly on BA (which has some quite good connections to night return flight LHR-TLV).

The changes will also make me much more likely to book cheapest economy class if I do fly LH - previously I would normally spend a few hundred dollars extra to fly business class, no longer....may make renewing SEN a bit more tricky...

It looked to me (maybe I wrong), that BA was 'adding' an A321 on the TLV route. LH runs an A32S from BER, from FRA/MUC they run 747/A340s

Edit: just seen the changes, FRA-TLV will be A330 twice daily, MUC-TLV will be A321 5/weekly

Wrong on both accounts I'm afraid.

All 3 daily BA flights will be operated with A321s (Long Haul product but without PE and F) and LH's FRA-TLV will be operated with a Euro configured A321, not A330 as previously planned.

http://airlineroute.net/2012/07/19/lh-w12update4/

Forgot to add, that one of the biggest problems with the changes (IMO) is the changed timing for LH690 FRA-TLV, to 1930 I think. It is no longer possible to have a full work day outside FRA and connect to overnight flight on Thursday.I've spoken to 3 other TLV based Senators in the past few days and all has the same issue.

2013 equipment to TLV is with A321 from MUC and FRA. And LH is selling F tickets for A321:

Frankfurt (FRA) To Tel Aviv Yafo (TLV) : Thu 3 Jan
From To Flight Duration First Flex
09:35 Frankfurt 14:35 Tel Aviv Yafo
LH686
4h00 € 2337.99
Currency Convertor Rebooking: free
Refund: free
Mileage Credit:* 300%
Mileage Upgrade:** not applicable

Close Conditions Total Price: € 4635.43

Detailed flight information
Flight LH686
Departs 09:35 on Thu 3 Jan
Frankfurt, Frankfurt International, Terminal 1
Arrives 14:35 on Thu 3 Jan
Tel Aviv Yafo, Ben Gurion International, Terminal 3
Duration 4h00
Airline Lufthansa
Aircraft Airbus Industrie A321

Which downgrades to J fare:

Date Departure Arrival Flight Duration Cabin
Thu 3 Jan 09:35Frankfurt 14:35 Tel Aviv Yafo
LH686
4h00 Business (J)
Thu 10 Jan 16:10Tel Aviv Yafo 19:55 Frankfurt
LH687
4h45 Business (J)
Total Price
Fare
(per person) Taxes, fees and carrier charges
(per person) Passengers

Total

4469.00 + 166.43 x 1 Adult = € 4635.43
Total Price for all passengers = € 4635.43

Business Z/D combination fare for same dates is: 2155,43€

Expensive anyway for 4 hrs with NEK seat. What are they thinking there?

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion (other than a few posts in the "who will lose First" thread) here about the upcoming loss of Long Haul product on the FRA-TLV route.


Moved the few (33) posts into this thread.

Regards Oliver2002
Mod M&M forum

I haven't seen an official communication from LH - do we know if this is planned as a temporary or permanent change (eg due to rollout of new C class seat)? Will we return to wide-body service next summer? If not, will be fun next summer!

I haven't seen an official communication from LH - do we know if this is planned as a temporary or permanent change (eg due to rollout of new C class seat)? Will we return to wide-body service next summer? If not, will be fun next summer!

I'm hoping that this is some sort of experiment that will fail and they will go back, but only time will tell.

Already the change from B744 to A346 on the LH687/8 flights seemed off, and now this. The plains are always full and mostly also Biz class.
I hope this is just for the winter season as they replace old Biz seats, because many of us use FRATLV as part of a connecting flight and you can't spend all these hrs on a S/H seat..

It´s a pity LH once again fails to communicate with its customers.

If this is a permanent change, make press release saying "due to economic/demand changes, we are downgrading the equipment bla bla bla" Pax won´t be happy, but they´ll know what the situation is.

If this major equipment downgrade is just temporary and linked to the equipment update, LH could let pax know that many planes are being refurnished this winter and the widebody aircrafts will be back next spring (or whatever). I´m sure most regular TLV-FRA would be somewhat understanding of a temporary downgrade resulting in a better product in the long-run.

With the major downgrade and no explanation/strategy it´s hard to any longer recommend LH to TLV based pax.

With the major downgrade and no explanation/strategy it´s hard to any longer recommend LH to TLV based pax.

Has there been any news on this front? I'm trying to plan November travel. Is the business class on these flights really going to be "Euro Business Class"? Or will it be something else?

Has there been any news on this front? I'm trying to plan November travel. Is the business class on these flights really going to be "Euro Business Class"? Or will it be something else?

Well the winter flight plan changes are being announced piece by piece. LH will service TLV from both hubs MUC and FRA with short haul planes only.

The TLV station people confirmed this, too.

Thanks for the update mamb0. That's really bad news as there are only few reasons to stick with LH to TLV. It seems BA and LX are the only carriers that serve TLV with wide-bodies from Europe or am I missing something? The as we know LX often downgrades to short haul planes on short notice. Not good at all.

That's really bad news as there are only few reasons to stick with LH to TLV. It seems BA and LX are the only carriers that serve TLV with wide-bodies from Europe or am I missing something?

BA will operate 2-class A321 3 times a day on the TLV-LHR route from W12. However, they will have a new club world cabin, which will feature the same seats as LX business class.
More details can be found at the following theards:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1361378-tlv-go-l-h-767-a320-confirmed.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/bmi-diamond-club/1360562-a321-cabin-upgrade.html (with images as well)

Therefore, LX will be the only european carrier operating wide-bodies to TLV.

BA will operate 2-class A321 3 times a day on the TLV-LHR route from W12. However, they will have a new club world cabin, which will feature the same seats as LX business class.
More details can be found at the following theards:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1361378-tlv-go-l-h-767-a320-confirmed.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/bmi-diamond-club/1360562-a321-cabin-upgrade.html (with images as well)

Therefore, LX will be the only european carrier operating wide-bodies to TLV.
Thanks for the info. As long as BA still offer a good seat in C which they obviously do on the A321, I do not mind at all. The only problem is that it will be even more difficult if not impossible to get Business Class award seats on this route :(

So maybe it's time to give LY another try. It seems as if their service has improved in the last years.

BA will operate 2-class A321 3 times a day on the TLV-LHR route from W12. However, they will have a new club world cabin, which will feature the same seats as LX business class.
More details can be found at the following theards:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1361378-tlv-go-l-h-767-a320-confirmed.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/bmi-diamond-club/1360562-a321-cabin-upgrade.html (with images as well)

Therefore, LX will be the only european carrier operating wide-bodies to TLV.

Iberia may run A340's several times/week, they do at the moment. Also TK do sometimes.

IB flies a daily A340 MAD-TLV.

Yes, IB is flying this route but IB is generally a pain and so far my "success rate" of getting stuck on a return trip at least once in MAD is 100%.

IB flies a daily A340 MAD-TLV.

Actually, it's 2 weekly... The rest is A319, however with Business Club (and not with the european business class).

So maybe it's time to give LY another try. It seems as if their service has improved in the last years.Which is more than one could say for their hard product.

Having said that they will still be miles ahead of LH when they switch to S/H configuration, and that includes LY's S/H fleet.

Amazing how LH have gone from offering a proper L/H product including F for years to now offering such an inferior uncompetitive product.

I just hope LX don't follow suit.

The internal explanation:

Tel Aviv – Umstellung notwendig
Jährliche Einsparung im zweistelligen Millionenbereich
Treibstoffkosten machen – je nach Strecken länge – bis zu 40 Prozent aller Kosten eines
Fluges aus. Der größte Hebel, die Wirtschaftlichkeit einer Strecke zu beeinflussen,
ist also der Einsatz eines treibstoffsparenden Gerätes. In Zeiten drastisch steigender
Fuel-Kosten müssen wir auch jahrelange Gewohnheiten infrage stellen. Neuestes
Beispiel ist die zum Winterflugplan 2012/2013 beschlossene Umstellung der Tel-Aviv-
Strecke vom Drei-Klassen-Interkontgerät auf Zwei-Klassen-Kontgerät.

Seit geraumer Zeit sind die Strecken nach Tel Aviv von
Lufthansa nicht mehr wirtschaftlich zu bedienen. An der
Nachfrage liegt es nicht – die Durchschnittsauslastung lag
2011 auf der Frankfurt-Strecke bei fast 80 Prozent. Auch die
Erlöse sind zufriedenstellend. Problematisch sind Kosten und
hier insbesondere die Treibstoffkosten. Da die Strecke nach
Tel Aviv nicht notwendigerweise nach einem Langstrecken -
gerät verlangt, können wir die Tatsache nicht mehr ignorieren,
dass der Fuel-Verbrauch einer A321 um etwa 45 Prozent
geringer als bei einer A330 ist. Aus Marktgründen hatten
wir bisher am Interkontgerät festgehalten. Destinationen mit
vergleichbaren Streckenlängen, wie etwa Beirut, Amman
oder Samara fliegen seit Jahren mit Kontgerät. Lufthansa
ist eine der letzten Fluggesellschaften in Europa, die
mit Interkontflugzeugen nach Tel Aviv fliegt. Nur Swiss,
British Airways und Aeroflot setzen noch Langstreckenmaschinen
ein. El Al verwendet mehrheitlich Kontgerät,
British Airways prüft eine Umstellung auf Kontflugzeuge.
Für den Business-Class-Reisenden ist
der Unterschied zwischen dem Kontund
dem Interkontprodukt deutlich.
Eine solche Angebotsverschlechterung
wollte Lufthansa für ihre Business-
Class-Kunden bislang nicht akzeptieren.
In der gegenwärtigen wirtschaftlichen
Situation des Unternehmens hat sich
Lufthansa unter Abwägung aller möglichen
Auswirkungen entschlossen, den
ILLUSTRATION: FRAPORT
Schritt zum Kontgerät zu tun. Alle verantwortlichen Stellen
sind sich bewusst, dass trotz der schon angelaufenen externen
Kommunikation insbesondere die Kabinencrew auf den Flügen
besonderen Belastungen ausgesetzt sein wird, weil enttäuschte
Business-Class-Passagiere ihren Unmut zunächst bei ihnen
kundtun werden. Eine ähnliche Situation gab es anfangs auf
der Kairo-Strecke, für die Lufthansa den Umstellungsschritt
auf treibstoffsparendes Kontgerät bereits zum Winterflugplan
2011/2012 getan hat.
Selbst einer – in der Wirtschaftlichkeitsrechnung unterstellten
– deutlich rückläufigen Business-Class-Nachfrage stehen
weitaus höhere Kosteneinsparungen gegenüber. Neben den
direkten Einsparungen beim Treibstoff ergeben sich nämlich
zusätzliche Ergebniseffekte im Millionenbereich, indem die frei
werdende A330 auf anderen Strecken effizienter eingesetzt
werden kann, im Winter 2012/2013 beispielsweise nach New
York anstelle einer 744, die dafür freigestellt wird. Auch der
geringere Crewbedarf wirkt sich deutlich auf das Ergebnis aus.
Dr. Sebastian Hollmeier, Leiter Netzplanung Frankfurt, erläutert:
„Es gibt in wirtschaftlich schwierigen Zeiten Entscheidungen,
die man nicht gerne trifft, an denen man aber nicht
vorbeikommt. Die Umstellung auf Kontgerät der Tel- Aviv-
Strecke gehört dazu. Die Wirtschaftlichkeit der Frankfurt-Kairo-
Strecke ist seit Beginn der Maßnahme positiv. Für Tel Aviv
erwarten wir dies auch, zumal wir gleichzeitig den Abendflug
auf 19:25 Uhr vorverlegen konnten. Damit wird die
Anschlusssituation in Frankfurt verbessert und die Kunden
kommen wesentlich früher als bislang in Tel Aviv an.“

Please

It all makes economic sense to them but not to me, I seriously do not care which Lufthansa plane I sit in, I seriously do care about the seat they put me in. Nice of them to put all the other options I have in the internal mail. And also nice spinning because they neglect the fact that others who operate s/h planes to tlv have different and better business seats than they do...
The problem is NEK, not the plane. The problem is, the price they want from me for a business seat is in no relation to the product. That is an economic reality I cannot ignore. Which has repercussions. Me not sitting in an LH plane to Frankfurt or Munich also means me not sitting in an LH plane for the onward journey. This will have an impact on all the people going f or c to and from tlv..

I really doubt they will see all the distinguished and interesting tlv pax I met on that route in their a321.

Please

Google Translate does a decent enough job, you should catch the essentials.

From google translate:


Tel Aviv - conversion necessary
Annual savings in the tens of millions
Fuel costs account - depending on the length distances - up to 40 percent of the cost of a
Flight out. The largest lever to influence the efficiency of a track,
So is the use of a fuel-saving device. In times of drastically rising
Fuel costs, we must also provide years of habits into question. Latest
Example is the winter timetable 2012/2013 decided on conversion of Tel-Aviv
Distance from the three-class Interkontgerät on two-class Kontgerät.

For some time, the routes are to Tel Aviv from
Lufthansa no longer economical to operate. At the
Demand, it is not - the average occupancy rate
2011 on the Frankfurt route, nearly 80 percent. Also
Proceeds are satisfactory. Costs are problematic and
especially the cost of fuel. Since the route to
Tel Aviv is not necessarily for a long haul -
device requires, we can no longer ignore the fact,
that the fuel consumption of an A321 by about 45 percent
lower than for a A330. Had for market reasons
We previously held on Interkontgerät. Destinations with
comparable stretches, such as Beirut, Amman
Samara or fly for years with Kontgerät. Lufthansa
is one of the last airlines in Europe, the
Interkontflugzeugen flies to Tel Aviv. Only Swiss,
British Airways and Aeroflot sit still long-range aircraft
one. El Al used mostly Kontgerät,
British Airways check conversion to Kontflugzeuge.
Is for business class travelers
the difference between the Kontund
the Interkontprodukt significantly.
Such a worsening supply
Lufthansa wanted for their business
Class customers will not accept previously.
In the current economic
Situation of the company has
Lufthansa considering all possible
Effects determined to
ILLUSTRATION: FRAPORT
Step to do Kontgerät. All authorities
are aware that despite the external already underway
Communication especially the cabin crew on the flights
his special loads is because disappointed
Business class passengers their displeasure at them first
be manifest. A similar situation is to initially
the Cairo route, the conversion step for Lufthansa
on fuel-saving Kontgerät already the winter timetable
Has done 2011/2012.
Even a - assumed in the business case
- Significant drop in business class demand are
much higher cost savings over. Besides the
direct savings in fuel costs resulting namely
additional effects on earnings in the millions by the free
used expectant efficient A330s on other routes
may be, in the Winter 2012/2013, for example, to New
York instead of a 744, which is released for it. Also
reduced crew requirement has obvious effects on the result.
Dr. Sebastian Hollmeier, Head of Network Planning Frankfurt, explains:
"There are decisions in difficult economic times,
that you do not like where you meet not,
ignore. The switch to the Kontgerät Tel Aviv
Route is one of them. The economics of Frankfurt to Cairo
Line is positive since the beginning of the measure. Tel Aviv
We also expect this, especially since we simultaneously the evening flight
could bring forward to 19:25 clock. Thus the
Port situation in Frankfurt and improved customer
come much earlier than previously in Tel Aviv. "

It all makes economic sense to them but not to me, I seriously do not care which Lufthansa plane I sit in, I seriously do care about the seat they put me in. Nice of them to put all the other options I have in the internal mail. And also nice spinning because they neglect the fact that others who operate s/h planes to tlv have different and better business seats than they do...
The problem is NEK, not the plane. The problem is, the price they want from me for a business seat is in no relation to the product. That is an economic reality I cannot ignore. Which has repercussions. Me not sitting in an LH plane to Frankfurt or Munich also means me not sitting in an LH plane for the onward journey. This will have an impact on all the people going f or c to and from tlv..
I really doubt they will see all the distinguished and interesting tlv pax I met on that route in their a321.

+1
In my case, I had booked two JFK-FRA-TLV LH First (A) tickets at $6K each but cancelled when LH went to S/H A321 on the FRA-TLV route. No effing way I'm spending 4 hours in a coach seat.

Is that really 45% less fuel PER seat, or is that 45% less fuel for the entire plane with less seats?

Also, it's cynical to whine about the difficult situation they put the crew in. If they wanted to avoid that, they could contact all booked business class passengers and inform them of the change, offering a refund. And they should make it overly clear during the booking process that the business service sold will use an economy seat.

They should also contact and inform all eco pax of the change because someone looking forward to some movies will be upset as well.

Dream on...

HTB.

El Al used mostly Kontgerät

Does that sentence mean El Al use S/H aircraft on the route?

Does that sentence mean El Al use S/H aircraft on the route?

yep. Kontgeraet is LH lingo for continental equipment.

The fact, that EL AL s/h has a different seat in business than in eco seems irrelevant to LH for the sake of the argument.

It all makes economic sense to them but not to me, I seriously do not care which Lufthansa plane I sit in, I seriously do care about the seat they put me in. Nice of them to put all the other options I have in the internal mail. And also nice spinning because they neglect the fact that others who operate s/h planes to tlv have different and better business seats than they do...
The problem is NEK, not the plane. The problem is, the price they want from me for a business seat is in no relation to the product. That is an economic reality I cannot ignore. Which has repercussions. Me not sitting in an LH plane to Frankfurt or Munich also means me not sitting in an LH plane for the onward journey. This will have an impact on all the people going f or c to and from tlv..

I really doubt they will see all the distinguished and interesting tlv pax I met on that route in their a321.


I've done CAI-FRA once on the night flight in an NEK seat and I'm not ever going to do this again!
Nowadays I fly with MS. Their loads have improved significantly in my experience and it is sometimes difficult to get a C seat!

I've done CAI-FRA once on the night flight in an NEK seat and I'm not ever going to do this again!
Nowadays I fly with MS. Their loads have improved significantly in my experience and it is sometimes difficult to get a C seat!

Bey-Fra. In 1C. C was packed, everybody was complaining, some even loudly and inappropriately to the poor crew, who also were not looking forward to being in this plane for so long. The immovable armrests killed me. My colleague sat in the first row of y, had an empty seat and more space than me.
The food was a joke and all the people shlepping to the restrooms, bumping into me, kept me from sleeping.

After arrival in FRA I entertained the thought of walking over to the building of Lufthansa Passage and see if I could beat up one of the idiots responsible for this with the backrest of a NEK seat. But since the backrests are only a thinly upholstered piece of hard plastic, I didn't want to risk to accidentally club anybody to death with it. I mean this thing already inflicts serious pain just standing there (ok, not many just stand there anymore, but even the autorecline versions do hurt). Imagine a raging HON swinging it at you full force...

Imagine a raging HON swinging it at you full force...

Don't hold back ;)

Considering how Lebanese can get emotional and aggressive you would assume someone would have done this already years ago when the A300 stopped flying to BEY in 2009? Even with the AB6 flying to BEY in 2005 you had reactions like the one posted in post#35 in this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles-more-lufthansa-austrian-swiss-other-partners/459594-a300-horrible.html

I can understand that flying to TLV with a long haul plane is not as fuel efficient however flying this route with a short haul equipment equiped with NEK seats is unacceptable. If LH decided to go that way they should have a sub fleet of A321's equiped with a proper long haul business class product as BA will do or at least craddle seats including a AVOD entertainment system. There are enough routes LH flies to with flight times of around 4 hours that if flight arrivals and departures will be coordinated between the routes to use the aircraft efficiently that sub fleet can also be operared with nice yields and possibly the one or the other business class seat more that willl be sold. I really don't think Lufthansa knows what they are getting themselves into on the TLV makrket and what they can potentially loose. Israel has one of the highest density of HON's and SEN's for sure more than applicable for CAI or AMM. Also you can't "cheat" Israelis; they will not pay a business class ticket if they get economy class. Although EL AL is not a very good airline they will be starting a aggresive capaign to give SEN and HON's their highest tier frequent flyer status when switching to them. And the one or the other will do it because although LY mainly flies with short haul equipment to European destinations they have at least a Business Class with craddle seats. Except for AF all major european airlines offer at least craddle seats to TLV and now LH wants to come with their NEK seats...

A few years ago, LH used to operate Private Air's 737 on the MUC-TLV route. This allowed them to offer their L/H business class product on that route.

It is a shame that they are not able to do this now, either by using Private Air planes or by creating a sub-fleet with proper business class...

BTW, in the letter posted here explaining the change, LH forgot to mention that IB and AB also operate wide-bodies (on same flights), with IB operating proper business class product on all flights.

It all makes economic sense to them but not to me, I seriously do not care which Lufthansa plane I sit in, I seriously do care about the seat they put me in. .

+1 ^

BA did it (321 with long haul C), I am surprised LH can not do the same, especially when they acknowledge that the FRA/TLV route has a great load factor.

Time to spend more time with BA.....

BA seems to be considering the same move as LH AFAIK

LH like many other airlines has to make sound economical decisions. If destinations like BEY, CAI or EBL can be served with NEK, I really don't see why on the 4hr flight to TLV this should be such a disgrace...
Also, the fare levels in Israel seem to be rather low. In another post here somebody is mentionning having bought a $6k fare in First Class to the States on LH... not a good yield for the airline...
After all, NEK is a reasonably good product for a flight of 4 or so hours. The seat is not everything! LH in general has a modern fleet, friendly service and good on-time performance.
And no, I don't work for LH, I just fly with them as a normal fare-paying passenger.

...
After all, NEK is a reasonably good product for a flight of 4 or so hours. The seat is not everything! ...

You obviously don't fly a lot...:confused:

After all, NEK is a reasonably good product for a flight of 4 or so hours. The seat is not everything!

You obviously don't fly a lot...:confused:

+1

BA seems to be considering the same move as LH AFAIK

What move? BA already announced moving to A321 with new CW product.

That's what I was referring to. Not quite NEK, but not their long-haul configuration either.

Not quite NEK, but not their long-haul configuration either.

Indeed, but for CW, they will be using the same business class seats that LX does. That is what I consider as an upgrade (I really like the solo seats).

LH will be adding more TLV flights:
Starting November 1st they will operate 2 weekly A320 (couldn't they find A330 or A340? :( ) on DUS-TLV-DUS.
Source (hebrew): http://www.tnet.org.il/sitefiles/1/2444/67731.asp

4U also has a few Israel flights loaded... AFAIR they used to operate the DUS TLV flight before? In any case, LH has no spare aircraft available this winter as the C refit starts.

LH will be adding more TLV flights:
Starting November 1st they will operate 2 weekly A320 (couldn't they find A330 or A340? :( ) on DUS-TLV-DUS.
Source (hebrew): http://www.tnet.org.il/sitefiles/1/2444/67731.asp

Two weekly is not a serious flight schedule. Should be at least daily or 5x if they want business travelers to use it!

4U also has a few Israel flights loaded... AFAIR they used to operate the DUS TLV flight before? In any case, LH has no spare aircraft available this winter as the C refit starts.

They currently operate CGN-TLV
and this has been their only TLV route (they never flew TLV-DUS)

I will now give LY another try. It's a pity that it is so difficult to find award space on BA. I have lots of BA miles to burn but never manage to make use of them on my way to TLV :( Alternatively, I will book the LX day flight when possible.

4U also has a few Israel flights loaded... AFAIR they used to operate the DUS TLV flight before? In any case, LH has no spare aircraft available this winter as the C refit starts.

There has never been DUS-TLV on Germanwings... The only 4U flight out of DUS I know of is to Pristina but I have no clue why. Kind of odd.

Anyway, the only carrier currently doing TLV is AirBerlin and only on an Airbus321. (few days with A332)

Ok Boss, I meant CGN... CGN & DUS are almost the same from here you know ;)

The only 4U flight out of DUS I know of is to Pristina but I have no clue why. Kind of odd.

Because Pristina only started serious international traffic recently (since the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo) and the market is heavily underserved, so loads are fantastic for quick-starters :)

Sorry for OT.

So LH will be an all narrow body operation at Tel Aviv soon.
Quite sad if you ask me, they're bound to loose lots of premium traffic.
Maybe we'll see the heavies back on TLV from at least FRA and maybe MUC once some are freed up from cabin re fits.

Although, they do have a nice little portfolio of destinations served non stop from TLV now. FRA, MUC, TXL and DUS. Anyone think they might add CGN sometime?

So LH will be an all narrow body operation at Tel Aviv soon.
Quite sad if you ask me, they're bound to loose lots of premium traffic.
Maybe we'll see the heavies back on TLV from at least FRA and maybe MUC once some are freed up from cabin re fits.

Although, they do have a nice little portfolio of destinations served non stop from TLV now. FRA, MUC, TXL and DUS. Anyone think they might add CGN sometime?

LH? No! "Direct4U", yes. Germanwings already does CGN-TLV as clearly posted by Oliver :p

So LH will be an all narrow body operation at Tel Aviv soon.
Quite sad if you ask me, they're bound to loose lots of premium traffic.
Maybe we'll see the heavies back on TLV from at least FRA and maybe MUC once some are freed up from cabin re fits.

Although, they do have a nice little portfolio of destinations served non stop from TLV now. FRA, MUC, TXL and DUS. Anyone think they might add CGN sometime?

Obviously you don't fly a lot + 2

Anyway, TLV is not just any route from the status custumer side it is one of the most important routes in the LH Group network. Supposedly 10% of all the HON Circle members are Israelis this really means a lot not to forget the couple of thousand SEN's. It will cost them more to loose these custumers than anything else in the long run. 4 hours is maybe to shor to offer a real First Class product but much too long for the NEK seats and just right to offer at least a real Business Class product.

4 hours is maybe to shor to offer a real First Class product but much too long for the NEK seats and just right to offer at least a real Business Class product.

BA did it :D:D

Obviously you don't fly a lot + 2

Anyway, TLV is not just any route from the status custumer side it is one of the most important routes in the LH Group network. Supposedly 10% of all the HON Circle members are Israelis this really means a lot not to forget the couple of thousand SEN's. It will cost them more to loose these custumers than anything else in the long run. 4 hours is maybe to shor to offer a real First Class product but much too long for the NEK seats and just right to offer at least a real Business Class product.

How on earth would you know how much I fly. I'm doing 280,000 miles p/ calendar year if not more....
A lot of that travel is to and from TLV Mr expert.

In any case, I was well aware that Germanwings flies CGN-TLV, my question was will LH use their own plane's to offer a full service option.

I'm not aware of the stats regarding HON and SENs in Israel but I suspect that LX will see an increased demand for premium cabin seats.

Interesting article/interview with VP Lufthansa for SE Europe, Middle East and Africa (Schaeffer) on page 6 of this magazine (in Hebrew).
http://www.tnet.org.il/upload/infocenter/info_images/12092012155003@HT_767.pdf

I won't post full translation here, but basically;

i) The TLV route has been discussed at almost every board meeting, there was huge pressure to downgrade
ii) They expect to lose many business customers to LY and BA especially
iii) Even if they lose ALL business class passengers (which they don't expect), this move will still be profitable due to lower costs of A320

iii) Even if they lose ALL business class passengers (which they don't expect), this move will still be profitable due to lower costs of A320

Yeah maybe from a aircraft utilization point of view. But hardly from an LH group point of view. If I lose people on TLV-FRA, I most likely lose them for FRA-SFO and FRA-GRU as well. If these people move their business, they move it substantially and not only for this route.

I didn't read the interview, but if this was their view for assessing this cut, then I suggest we change LH management for some 1st year business students :rolleyes:

LH will be adding more TLV flights:
Starting November 1st they will operate 2 weekly A320 (couldn't they find A330 or A340? :( ) on DUS-TLV-DUS.
Source (hebrew): http://www.tnet.org.il/sitefiles/1/2444/67731.asp

Yeah maybe from a aircraft utilization point of view. But hardly from an LH group point of view. If I lose people on TLV-FRA, I most likely lose them for FRA-SFO and FRA-GRU as well. If these people move their business, they move it substantially and not only for this route.

I didn't read the interview, but if this was their view for assessing this cut, then I suggest we change LH management for some 1st year business students :rolleyes:

+1 At least half of my flights through Europe are connecting to somewhere else and even more reason to want better seats. When you just got off an overnight from SFO and have to do another "overnight" from FRA that lands at 3:30am, you want to go back to sleep, not in a coach seat. This used to be the only thing that made connecting in Europe better than connecting in PHL or JFK, but without that, there's no reason not to fly the US carriers, or BA. At least on DL and US you get a flat bed in business for the overnight portions and slightly better 1st class seats for the US domestic!

LH will be adding more TLV flights:
Starting November 1st they will operate 2 weekly A320 (couldn't they find A330 or A340? :( ) on DUS-TLV-DUS.
Source (hebrew): http://www.tnet.org.il/sitefiles/1/2444/67731.asp

Yeah maybe from a aircraft utilization point of view. But hardly from an LH group point of view. If I lose people on TLV-FRA, I most likely lose them for FRA-SFO and FRA-GRU as well. If these people move their business, they move it substantially and not only for this route.

I didn't read the interview, but if this was their view for assessing this cut, then I suggest we change LH management for some 1st year business students :rolleyes:

+1 At least half of my flights through Europe are connecting to somewhere else and even more reason to want better seats. When you just got off an overnight from SFO and have to do another "overnight" from FRA that lands at 3:30am, you want to go back to sleep, not in a coach seat. This used to be the only thing that made connecting in Europe better than connecting in PHL or JFK, but without that, there's no reason not to fly the US carriers, or BA. At least on DL and US you get a flat bed in business for the overnight portions and slightly better 1st class seats for the US domestic!

Plus AC and UA.
Lots of options. When I have to go to TLV as a single destination I usually take AC or UA. Both good options.

Interesting article/interview with VP Lufthansa for SE Europe, Middle East and Africa (Schaeffer) on page 6 of this magazine (in Hebrew).
http://www.tnet.org.il/upload/infocenter/info_images/12092012155003@HT_767.pdf

I won't post full translation here, but basically;

i) The TLV route has been discussed at almost every board meeting, there was huge pressure to downgrade
ii) They expect to lose many business customers to LY and BA especially
iii) Even if they lose ALL business class passengers (which they don't expect), this move will still be profitable due to lower costs of A320

Wow! They must have an excellent cost structure meanwhile if they can afford to lose ALL business class passengers!
I'm impressed with the progress Mr Franz is making! :rolleyes:

Wow! They must have an excellent cost structure meanwhile if they can afford to lose ALL business class passengers!
I'm impressed with the progress Mr Franz is making! :rolleyes:

I am really not sure if Mr. Franz and his team have done a good job on this one. Given that 80+ % of the passengers on the FRA-TLV-FRA route are conecting passengers and again taking into consideration that 10% of all HON's are from Israel at least on this route the long haul product should remain and honestly they should've thought how to run the route more profitable using the current product. 2 things come up, operate the route with minimum crew and one purser only; no layover for crews operating night flight (except for cockpit crew) and operate the flight with a more economical air speed instead of maximum speed, take as an example daughter SWISS. When considering all the connecting traffic mainly in the premium segment that gets lost I think the loss operating an A321 will be greater.

Wouldn't it make more sense to give the crew who arrive in Tel Aviv at 3:30am the layover an have the afternoon arrival turn straight back to Frankfurt? Even the pilots of the morning departure from FRA could probably operate the return without any issues.

In any case, they should at least have a sub fleet of A320/1's that have a proper J class. It doesn't have to be like what BA is offering but it should at least match what LY and IB have on offer. Same goes for Brussels Airlines.

Eggendorfer on meilenschwund.de reports that LH Cargo will launch 4 return flights weekly to/from TLV with an MD11-F and speculates that this move has become necessary because the A321s have much less cargo capacity than the A330.

If this is true, that really makes you wonder how the use of a A321 over a A330 and additional MD11-F can save 45% in fuel, and whether that decision is good for LH as a whole or only LH passage.

HTB.

A32S also have a restriction of max 80-85cm height on Cargo. LHC flies all over the middle east while flying to SE Asia, so this will just be an eroute stop...

A32S also have a restriction of max 80-85cm height on Cargo. LHC flies all over the middle east while flying to SE Asia, so this will just be an eroute stop...

No, the cargo flights are actually turnaround services.

LH8340 is doing FRA-IST-TLV vv on Day 2/3/7, LH8432 FRA-TLV vv on day 5. Can't find 4x weekly directs anywhere. I Source: http://lufthansa-cargo.com/index.php?id=379

Eggendorfer on meilenschwund.de reports that LH Cargo will launch 4 return flights weekly to/from TLV with an MD11-F and speculates that this move has become necessary because the A321s have much less cargo capacity than the A330.

If this is true, that really makes you wonder how the use of a A321 over a A330 and additional MD11-F can save 45% in fuel, and whether that decision is good for LH as a whole or only LH passage.

HTB.

Excellent point.

Not only will they use more fuel- they will lose all premium traffic on this important route. Genius really.

LH8340 is doing FRA-IST-TLV vv on Day 2/3/7, LH8432 FRA-TLV vv on day 5. Can't find 4x weekly directs anywhere. I Source: http://lufthansa-cargo.com/index.php?id=379

Starting end of October.

Still doesn't change the fact that they had to add 4 cargo flights weekly to TLV, even though the effect mitigated by the fact that they fly via IST.

Do you know whether they added IST-TLV to existing flights, or whether FRA-IST is a new business opportunity not feasible on its own?

HTB.

Starting end of October.

Still doesn't change the fact that they had to add 4 cargo flights weekly to TLV, even though the effect mitigated by the fact that they fly via IST.

Do you know whether they added IST-TLV to existing flights, or whether FRA-IST is a new business opportunity not feasible on its own?

HTB.

In the cargo business, it is pretty normal to do flights IST-TLV as part of the entire itinerary. Only doing FRA-IST-FRA would probably not justify the flight since you need the extra heavy and extra high cargo to fill the freighter. (in comparison to a narrowbody) There are plenty flights a day on narrowbody pax planes between Germany and Turkey (TK is obviously getting plenty of the load), they also used to have (not sure if still the case) an A300 freighter between FRA-IST. So not a big piece of the cake left for LH Cargo but combining IST and TLV in the itinerary might make it work.

The other Day i was flying F On FRA-TLV together with 7 HON Members of which all of them complained to the purser about the downgrade and they also spoke amongst each other and Said that as of the downgrade they will not fly LH anymore. Really i don't understad this stupidity if u make a Business decission that guarantees you to loose your Most Important customers!

Really i don't understand this stupidity if u make a Business decision that guarantees you to loose your Most Important customers!

It's a new strategy that LH is adopting these days: to save few cents lose many bucks ;)

The other Day i was flying F On FRA-TLV together with 7 HON Members of which all of them complained to the purser about the downgrade and they also spoke amongst each other and Said that as of the downgrade they will not fly LH anymore. Really i don't understad this stupidity if u make a Business decission that guarantees you to loose your Most Important customers!

Obviously HONs in F aren't the most important customers! :idea:

I honestly cannot judge this, since I lack all basic economic info. I guess the difference in operational costs between an A340 and an A321 must be quite massive.
All I know, the regional LH marketing office was very aggressive in the past with rebates and fare prices.. It might very well be that all the TLV Hons were not creating that much yield because of LH's marketing strategy.
And even the added LHC trips might make economical sense
So they may have all good reasons on their side.
Still I will do what is best for me. And what they are expecting.
Avoiding LH on this route at all cost. Yes I am willing to spend more money to be comfortable. But looking an d/c/j fares by LH, this is hardly possible...

Avoiding LH on this route at all cost. Yes I am willing to spend more money to be comfortable. But looking an d/c/j fares by LH, this is hardly possible...

I am also not ready to spend twice the price I always paid with LH in C for a basic C product.
LH has its economical rules, I have mine: price/quality ratio
Just booked my next TLV flight with BA.

Really i don't understad this stupidity if u make a Business decission that guarantees you to loose your Most Important customers!

I do understand!

Mr. Franz wants to reduce the number of HONs at all costs. TLV is one "hotspots", as there are many HONs flying F to FRA and onwards to the US. The easyest way to get rid of a maximal numbers of HONs at once is to twit the F-passengers ex-TLV @:-)

I am also not ready to spend twice the price I always paid with LH in C for a basic C product.
LH has its economical rules, I have mine: price/quality ratio
Just booked my next TLV flight with BA.

Sure BA is a far better product (at least in C) but isn't BA putting 321 to replace 767 / 747 on the LHR - TLV?

I am also not ready to spend twice the price I always paid with LH in C for a basic C product.
LH has its economical rules, I have mine: price/quality ratio
Just booked my next TLV flight with BA.

Sure BA is a far better product (at least in C) but isn't BA putting 321 to replace 767 / 747 on the LHR - TLV?

Yes they are but it's an A321 with refitted cabin interiors with LX style biz class seats and PTV, AVOD nose to tail.

Yes they are but it's an A321 with refitted cabin interiors with LX style biz class seats and PTV, AVOD nose to tail.

^^^

Yes they are but it's an A321 with refitted cabin interiors with LX style biz class seats and PTV, AVOD nose to tail.
I understand this is thanks to bmi's plan before it was sold to BA.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/sugababe-albums-bmi-a321-new-cabin-picture4488-business-single-seat.jpg

Photo courtesy of sugababe in the bmi/BA A321 Cabin Upgrade (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/19193824-post42.html) thread.

I understand this is thanks to bmi's plan before it was sold to BA.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/sugababe-albums-bmi-a321-new-cabin-picture4488-business-single-seat.jpg

Photo courtesy of sugababe in the bmi/BA A321 Cabin Upgrade (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/19193824-post42.html) thread.

Dear LH guys, BA did it. And what about you ?

Dear LH guys, BA did it. And what about you ?
Actually bmi was going to do it while still owned by LH.

Dear LH guys, BA did it. And what about you ?

http://www.reise-wahnsinn.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/neue_sitze.jpg

I do understand!

Mr. Franz wants to reduce the number of HONs at all costs. TLV is one "hotspots", as there are many HONs flying F to FRA and onwards to the US. The easyest way to get rid of a maximal numbers of HONs at once is to twit the F-passengers ex-TLV @:-)

Obvously they know to value HON's but when LH decided to put TLV in line with CAI, AMM and BEY they maybe didn't do their homework as thorough as they should have and "forgot" to look at the statistics on the amount of HON's and SEN's living in Israel... well in that case they will feel it the hard way in the next months. I really hope that LH has prepared their ground and mainly cabin crews as the first weeks will be war on the FRA and MUC TLV route and after by the latest a drastic decrease in premium traffic and yes... all these HON's that filled up F class on long haul flights from MUC and FRA they will probably be missing somwhere in the best case with SWISS and in the worst case with BA etc.

@Rambuster , funny :D

bmi/BA A321 economy cabin

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh498/TCX69K/A9D7B16E-1F8B-4C65-9195-7AD08C148867-1590-0000017446AD6BFB.jpg

Courtesy of sugababe

I really hope that LH has prepared their ground and mainly cabin crews as the first weeks will be war on the FRA and MUC TLV route and after by the latest a drastic decrease in premium traffic and yes... all these HON's that filled up F class on long haul flights from MUC and FRA they will probably be missing somwhere in the best case with SWISS and in the worst case with BA etc.

IMO, BA is now a viable premium option to TLV. We flew BA First LHR-ORD this past week and I was pleasantly surprised. In flight service and food was superb. Sure, wines were horrid but we just stayed with the Grand Siecle. The Concorde Room at LHR was on a par if not better than FCT/FCL. And BA just started curbside valet service for F pax. If BA ever started limo service from the CCR to the gate, that would be a game changer despite 14 pax in First.

IMO, BA is now a viable premium option to TLV. We flew BA First LHR-ORD this past week and I was pleasantly surprised. In flight service and food was superb. Sure, wines were horrid but we just stayed with the Grand Siecle. The Concorde Room at LHR was on a par if not better than FCT/FCL. And BA just started curbside valet service for F pax. If BA ever started limo service from the CCR to the gate, that would be a game changer despite 14 pax in First.

:eek:

I really must catch up on your latest trip report.

http://www.reise-wahnsinn.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/neue_sitze.jpg

Oh GOD. I HATE THESE SEATS WITH ALL THEIR INNOVATIONS :td::td:

Oh GOD. I HATE THESE SEATS WITH ALL THEIR INNOVATIONS :td::td:

And thebest one is not in there:
No coat hanger, limited luggage space and the best of them all: not removable armrests in the first 3 rows.

Seriously, what is LH thinking here? This is bound to cost them dearly!
At least if they'd create a sub fleet of A320's and A321's that fly to TLV, BEY, CAI, AMM and where ever else in the middle east, with proper business class seats and none of that NEK business it wouldn't be so bad. It would be fine with me even. But this is just ridiculous!

Please Lufthansa, listen to your customers and take a page from the BMI handbook here!

Please Lufthansa, listen to your customers and take a page from the BMI handbook here!

There are so many proper options with other airlines, why do you all care so much for Lufthansa. Obviously LH does not care for you in return.

Well, changing one's flight patterns isn't always that simple, and I can see why many would hesitate to backtrack from central or eastern Europe all the way to LHR only to fly to TLV.

Well, changing one's flight patterns isn't always that simple, and I can see why many would hesitate to backtrack from central or eastern Europe all the way to LHR only to fly to TLV.

So, difference is:

Either fly back to MUC or FRA or ZRH or LHR, so you have various flight times.
Now comes the hard question: At FRA for 10pm departure for TLV, because of weather, all take offs are queued and FRA is closing. Each captain is asking for special take off permit. Waiting on tarmac. Arrive in TLV between 4 and 5 am, in hotel between 6 and 7am, shower, change, get to the meeting.

You feel great after Non stop you in NEK

And thebest one is not in there:
No coat hanger, limited luggage space and the best of them all: not removable armrests in the first 3 rows.

The "no coat hanger" option is very much appreciated in the winter when flying to destinations such as Moscow or Stockholm or anywhere in North America besides Miami and Los Angeles for that matter.

Well, changing one's flight patterns isn't always that simple, and I can see why many would hesitate to backtrack from central or eastern Europe all the way to LHR only to fly to TLV.

True, but especially coming from Eastern Europe, TK always was and now even LY direct is a good option, compared to LH.

^ Exactly. TK is a fantastic option for anyone, especially the folks east of Austria, and fares are usually in the sub-1200€ range, plus you get to enjoy the new C lounge at IST. Even the stopover is sort of halfway there, making the trip more bearable than with NEK.

So, difference is:

Either fly back to MUC or FRA or ZRH or LHR, so you have various flight times.
Now comes the hard question: At FRA for 10pm departure for TLV, because of weather, all take offs are queued and FRA is closing. Each captain is asking for special take off permit. Waiting on tarmac. Arrive in TLV between 4 and 5 am, in hotel between 6 and 7am, shower, change, get to the meeting.

You feel great after Non stop you in NEK

That is not even an option now, as the late flight FRA-TLV has been retimed to 1930 I believe. This removes almost all connection options in Europe which allow a full day's work. This is probably even worse news for me than the equipment downguage - Thursday night flight FRA-TLV was always full with connecting pax (esp from scandinavia, France, US West Coast, E Europe). If these all go to ZRH or LHR, it will be near-impossible to get a seat!

THe flights usually always have good loads out of FRA, especially in C and F really LH I don't understand; this hopefully is some nightmare that will begin with the wintertimetable and hopefully end just intime for the summer timetable 2013 when the long haul planes and service are back at least from either MUC or FRA!

As for my self , just booked tlv-iad via Fra , on the way back its the a321.
will never pay c to fly in y seat.
after this flight my SEN status will renew til 2014/15.
then bye bye LH , will move my biz to DL or UA (11 r/t per year tlv-USA), when proper c class will return to TLV i will be back.

As for my self , just booked tlv-iad via Fra , on the way back its the a321.
will never pay c to fly in y seat.
after this flight my SEN status will renew til 2014/15.
then bye bye LH , will move my biz to DL or UA (11 r/t per year tlv-USA), when proper c class will return to TLV i will be back.

Same here, I do TLV-Americas once a month.
I'll star within Star Alliance but I'll be flying on Air Canada and United a whole lot more than I already do..

Same here, I do TLV-Americas once a month.
I'll star within Star Alliance but I'll be flying on Air Canada and United a whole lot more than I already do..

I just recommended the same to a friend who kept going on about how Lufthansa could have made this decision, that they didnt look right at all the data and statistics, yada yada yada.

I see this differently. They have all the data, they looked at it properly and all ramifications of their plan seem fine to them.

I told him to get over it and find a new airline to fall in love with, because LH has gone cold on her lovers.

LH wants a divorce.

Thank god I do not need a prenup to keep all my money.

I just recommended the same to a friend who kept going on about how Lufthansa could have made this decision, that they didnt look right at all the data and statistics, yada yada yada.

I see this differently. They have all the data, they looked at it properly and all ramifications of their plan seem fine to them.

I told him to get over it and find a new airline to fall in love with, because LH has gone cold on her lovers.

LH wants a divorce.

Thank god I do not need a prenup to keep all my money.

:D

Well, if your friend flies paid J/C, he´ll be quite pleased with the AC product, UA isn´t too bad either. Both airlines have a superior FFP compared with LH M&M IMO.

Otherwise LX still is a decent option in terms of hard and soft productdepending on where in the US he´s flying.

Same here, I do TLV-Americas once a month.
I'll star within Star Alliance but I'll be flying on Air Canada and United a whole lot more than I already do..

I just recommended the same to a friend who kept going on about how Lufthansa could have made this decision, that they didnt look right at all the data and statistics, yada yada yada.

I see this differently. They have all the data, they looked at it properly and all ramifications of their plan seem fine to them.

I told him to get over it and find a new airline to fall in love with, because LH has gone cold on her lovers.

LH wants a divorce.

Thank god I do not need a prenup to keep all my money.

To be honest, the only reason I flew with LH was because I'd use them to connect to Air Canada 871 to YUL from FRA at 10:30am and arrive in YUL by mid day.

Now I can just as easily take UA's red eye and be in YUL for the morning!
I could have been doing this already but it always worked out cheaper with LH :P

To be honest, the only reason I flew with LH was because I'd use them to connect to Air Canada 871 to YUL from FRA at 10:30am and arrive in YUL by mid day.

Now I can just as easily take UA's red eye and be in YUL for the morning!
I could have been doing this already but it always worked out cheaper with LH :P

AC 875 is anyway changing to 13:30, so you will be better with UA.

Saw the 2 A321's of LH at TLV on sunday at their first day of operations on this route; one for MUC and the other to FRA it just looked so wrong. Instead of flying F via MUC I had to fly with SWISS. I really hope LH will change back to long haul operations at least from FRA as of summer timetable 2013.

Was booked in C on BA064 TLV-LHR yesterday.

At check-in, the clerk told me that the flight would be delayed for one hour and also was overbooked.

I have been offered a 125 £ compensation for a re-booking in C on TLV-ZRH-LHR with LX, which I did.

Short comments after a friendly discussion with the check-in clerks:

All TLV BA flights are late :mad:
All are oversold :mad:

On the positive side, the new C class is a real pleasure in terms of comfort, but a shame in terms of AVOD (Winner is by far LX with a hundreds of CD's and movies in many languages)

Was booked in C on BA064 TLV-LHR yesterday.

At check-in, the clerk told me that the flight would be delayed for one hour and also was overbooked.

I have been offered a 125 £ compensation for a re-booking in C on TLV-ZRH-LHR with LX, which I did.

Short comments after a friendly discussion with the check-in clerks:

All TLV BA flights are late :mad:
All are oversold :mad:

On the positive side, the new C class is a real pleasure in terms of comfort, but a shame in terms of AVOD (Winner is by far LX with a hundreds of CD's and movies in many languages)

LH seems to be good for the competition:
ex-CAI it's diffcult to get a C seat on MS to FRA since LH NEK'd the route, now BA seems to be oversold perhaps also due to LH NEKing ?

Nevertleless I am sure the premium loss for LH is worse on the TLV routing considering the HON numbers. SUpposeldy the number is less than it has been but almost everytime I was on F between FRA and TLV I was surounded by at least 4 or 5 HON's in F, I am sure you don't get that on to many other routes.

Nevertleless I am sure the premium loss for LH is worse on the TLV routing considering the HON numbers. SUpposeldy the number is less than it has been but almost everytime I was on F between FRA and TLV I was surounded by at least 4 or 5 HON's in F, I am sure you don't get that on to many other routes.

Franz and his team do not care about a sharp drop in the number of HON in Israel or any where else.

May be they think that a lot of HON are not profit generating tools for and kicking them out to competitors is better than keeping their business within the group.

As a matter of fact, a part of their strategy to cut losses and improve profit margins is to slash the number of HON by almost 70% :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact, a part of their strategy to cut losses and improve profit margins is to slash the number of HON by almost 70% :rolleyes:

Well this part of the strategy (slashing the number of HON) seems to be working quite well. I cannot understand why they did not just implement a minimum spend in EUR/GBP/USD/JPY etc- it would seem a lot simpler and may generate more revenue per customer?

Did the A321 flight from TLV yesterday. It is a nightmare to say the least.
There where 20 rows of C and the flight was full. No entertainment, its just like a flight from Dublin to Frankfurt, just soooo much longer. My back still hurts.
I rebooked my Beirut flight at the End of November to BA. Lufthansa has become such a disgrace, there is just nothing positive left to say.

Did the A321 flight from TLV yesterday. It is a nightmare to say the least.
There where 20 rows of C and the flight was full. No entertainment, its just like a flight from Dublin to Frankfurt, just soooo much longer. My back still hurts.
I rebooked my Beirut flight at the End of November to BA. Lufthansa has become such a disgrace, there is just nothing positive left to say.

I recently did the CAI-FRA flight on the A321 in C at 04:00am ... won't be doing that again! (MS next mornig was fully booked)

Being on a RTW *A ticket, continuing on SQ, I am stuck with the TLV FRA segment on LH, paying for C and getting nothing. On the other hand, LY would not be a big improvement, not every day, and no RTW fares.

Well this part of the strategy (slashing the number of HON) seems to be working quite well. I cannot understand why they did not just implement a minimum spend in EUR/GBP/USD/JPY etc- it would seem a lot simpler and may generate more revenue per customer?

Their IT is not capable of doing so. I think Franz would love to that. To be fair, LH has to deal with a lot more tickets issued by so many different partners. SQ faced a lot of problems when they started tracking revenue and they are still not perfect...

Their IT is not capable of doing so. I think Franz would love to that. To be fair, LH has to deal with a lot more tickets issued by so many different partners. SQ faced a lot of problems when they started tracking revenue and they are still not perfect...

If the IT is not capable of tracking revenue, what data was used to determine the number of HON members was too high or not profitable?

what data was used to determine the number of HON members was too high or not profitable?

just pure speculation (HUNCH) :D

If the IT is not capable of tracking revenue, what data was used to determine the number of HON members was too high or not profitable?

Any airlines IT can only track the revenue spend on that particular airlines ticket stock. The value of the coupons issued by other airlines is not public knowledge.

For monitoring corporate spend (if you have year end bonus or certain % share commitment), airline usually ask for explicit authorisation to receive a report on the agency office ID your company uses to book travel. Its not as easy as it looks on the surface @:-)

Any airlines IT can only track the revenue spend on that particular airlines ticket stock. The value of the coupons issued by other airlines is not public knowledge.

For monitoring corporate spend (if you have year end bonus or certain % share commitment), airline usually ask for explicit authorisation to receive a report on the agency office ID your company uses to book travel. Its not as easy as it looks on the surface @:-)

Having some experience previously in this area it is possible to get the reports as long as you buy them. They are not cheap but they are very informative.

Secondly- if you wanted to get the information in a different way:

1) Take the data from every HON member extracted from the M&M database [there are only 8000 of them]- you know the flight, date, class of service and etix number or flight coupon reference (very few paper tickets now anyway)
2) For each flight coupon calculate the NET value
3) Load this in a database

Sounds like a great job for a team of summer interns:
a) Assume each HON takes 200 flights per year
b) Assume 5 minutes work to pull each flight and calculate value [gross overestimation most likely]
c) Each intern can input into the system 96 flights per day or 480 flights per week [and thus clear 2 HON per day]
d) Assuming there are 8000 HON you have 4000 working days
e) In a four month period [Internship] you would need 1000 working days per month
f) 1000 working days per month /22 (per FTE)= 45 FTE (interns) for 4 months. At a cost of 2000 EUR per month (intern small re-imbursement + some cost for management) your total cost would be 360K EUR.

I would certainly spend that before I cut 6000 customers with a spend of 80K per year each. Put a discount rate on that of 15% (assume WACC of LH group) and see what number comes out as an annuity. It is huge.

Of course outsourcing this to India would probably be much easier.

And this is assuming that:
a) Need to audit every HON
b) No purchasing of reports
c) No need only to control exceptions (which there would be)
d) Every HON has an average of 200 flights per year
e) This is a fully manual process (it wouldn't be) and that nothing can be automated

Everything can be done- it is just a matter of wanting to see the data and knowing where to look for it.

Do we know for sure that this is a permanent change (at least for the foreseeable future) or is there a chance they will go back to three class planes after the winter schedule?

Do we know for sure that this is a permanent change (at least for the foreseeable future) or is there a chance they will go back to three class planes after the winter schedule?

The downgrade is not driven by a possible change in demand in winter.

It is a strategic decision
This will stay unless the strategy changes.

The downgrade is not driven by a possible change in demand in winter.

It is a strategic decision
This will stay unless the strategy changes.

Let's give it a couple of months. At this stage quite a lot of passengers propbably don't know what they got themselves into before they see the plane at the gate...ok at that stage they think it's a fata morgana but by the latest when they take a seat in the lovely NEK seats they face the reality. I am very sure that the passenger rates will decrease esepcially in the premium segment. By the time they will only be able to fill an A320 with only a few rows of C without all those HON's and SEN's some bells might ring up at the revenue center especially when the demand is lost on those onward long haul C and F flights from FRA and MUC. LH clearly has two options; to bring back a long haul product at least again from FRA to keep it's Israeli HON's and SEN's or to loose always more premium traffic and end up barelly filling A320's with a couple of C Class rows.

I have yet to purchase my FRA-TLV for late May but right now I'm looking at going through ZRH or flying TK. I hope LXA350 is right and the negative blowback over this decision happens sooner rather than later.

Let's give it a couple of months. At this stage quite a lot of passengers propbably don't know what they got themselves into before they see the plane at the gate...ok at that stage they think it's a fata morgana but by the latest when they take a seat in the lovely NEK seats they face the reality. I am very sure that the passenger rates will decrease esepcially in the premium segment. By the time they will only be able to fill an A320 with only a few rows of C without all those HON's and SEN's some bells might ring up at the revenue center especially when the demand is lost on those onward long haul C and F flights from FRA and MUC. LH clearly has two options; to bring back a long haul product at least again from FRA to keep it's Israeli HON's and SEN's or to loose always more premium traffic and end up barelly filling A320's with a couple of C Class rows.

Based on all what i have heared from LH people and what you could read in their internal employee magazin I have to completely disagree with you.

The ramifications of the downgrade were not ignored or overlooked. They are fully anticipated, calculated and accepted as a downside to realise savings.

I hate this decision and I also wished it were different. But this wont change because business ticket sales are going down or HONs move business.

That is exactly what they expect to happen and therefore want to happen.

I can only suggest that everybody gets over it and either accepts to fly NEK or looks for one of the many alternatives.

... ticket sales are going down or HONs move business...

Why could that be?

If the IT is not capable of tracking revenue, what data was used to determine the number of HON members was too high or not profitable?

Lufthansa does not need numbers to manage. They know intuitively what to do.

8000 HON were responsible for 5% for the revenue. Kicking out half of them will make 4000 HON responsible for 3% of the revenue.

Any airlines IT can only track the revenue spend on that particular airlines ticket stock. The value of the coupons issued by other airlines is not public knowledge.

For monitoring corporate spend (if you have year end bonus or certain % share commitment), airline usually ask for explicit authorisation to receive a report on the agency office ID your company uses to book travel. Its not as easy as it looks on the surface @:-)

How can they calculate something rather complex like customer equity, when they are not capable of tracking revenue?

How can they calculate something rather complex like customer equity, when they are not capable of tracking revenue?

That M1-7 thingie is derived from distance flown and booking class. I would assume they start on the premise a segment flown in V for 4000 miles is weighed with a factor of x. I'm sure the Walldorf & Stattler fraction will rush to weigh in on that calculation shortly. :)

That M1-7 thingie is derived from distance flown and booking class. I would assume they start on the premise a segment flown in V for 4000 miles is weighed with a factor of x. I'm sure the Walldorf & Stattler fraction will rush to weigh in on that calculation shortly. :)

Okay, I assumed that it is actually based on revenue, gross margin, potential, etc.

But especially for HON, where is the problem? I would assume 80% of the HON flying is on LH, LX or OS ticket stock. The remaining 20% that come from other *A stock can be extrapolated then?!

But anyways, I'm no HON and probably won't be in the near future and I don't fly to TLV so why am I bothering with this :D

LH called me today, to inform me of the change to A321 for my flight in 12 days (*A Gold), LH RTW ticket in C. I guess they have been getting flack from passengers who were surprised !

I requested that she pass on my regret over the change. She did not know if 3 class would return next summer, but "it is being discussed" she said.

LH called me today, to inform me of the change to A321 for my flight in 12 days (*A Gold), LH RTW ticket in C. I guess they have been getting flack from passengers who were surprised !

I requested that she pass on my regret over the change. She did not know if 3 class would return next summer, but "it is being discussed" she said.

I would have asked to be send by the way of ZRH to fly on the LX A333.... (if LH is asking anyway)

Based on all what i have heared from LH people and what you could read in their internal employee magazin I have to completely disagree with you.

The ramifications of the downgrade were not ignored or overlooked. They are fully anticipated, calculated and accepted as a downside to realise savings.

I hate this decision and I also wished it were different. But this wont change because business ticket sales are going down or HONs move business.

That is exactly what they expect to happen and therefore want to happen.

I can only suggest that everybody gets over it and either accepts to fly NEK or looks for one of the many alternatives.

I nevertheless think that TLV can not be compared to CAI; again I will bring up the HON and SEN story you have many more of them based in TLV than CAI. Also the clientele seems not that demanding and they are living with the A321; at least i looks like the capacity is needed. The Israelis will look at alternatives and dump LH and soon we will get to see A320's out of FRA and MUC. DUS and BER for instance that were (will) be served from the begining are classical O&D routes also consisting of mainly leasure non premium passengers hence this is and will be another story and honestly probably MUC could be used with the same strategy. However at least out of FRA LH needs a premium product to feed it's passengers and if they will not offer it we will see in future also there an A320 with mainly non premium passengers. Neverthleless supposedly LH made it's calculations and they seem ok with loosing all this premium demand to the competitors. BTW: SWISS have good loads themselves hence feeding all the premium demand with ZRH also doesn't make any sense if this was the calculation of LH.

On another note I have noticed that the ontime performance of LH686/687 ( the day flights out of FRA) is not very good, almost daily delays....So on top of all the NEK frustrations various passengers probably are missing their connecting flights.

Nice thread about the (unmet) expectations of a TLV pax towards BA. Widebody vs narrowbody and T5 to T1 seems not to be the icing on the cake either: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1406096-new-route-tlv-disaster.html

That should be the FT poster child thread.
- Some facts from the OP mixed with emotion/personal opinions/DYKWIA, some slightly skewed hints at ethnic/racial/religious/elite mistreatment.
- Full blown viral reaction from disagreers/apologists/ with emotions/denials/facts/English grammar . A couple of supporters for the facts.
- Thread closed

Love it.
GBM

Due to the current conflict (Israel / Gaza), LH makes a stop in ATH for their LH690 (FRA-TLV) to change the crew in Athens so they don't have to overnight in TLV...

(planned to do so until Thursday)

Apparently, there has been no ahead-info for the passengers...

Due to the current conflict (Israel / Gaza), LH makes a stop in ATH for their LH690 (FRA-TLV) to change the crew in Athens so they don't have to overnight in TLV...Making an already uncomfortable flight an even more uncomfortable one.

Making an already uncomfortable flight an even more uncomfortable one.

This one never gets old over here: nonstop you :D

This one never gets old over here: nonstop you :D

I really hope LH slowly seriously reconsiders it's decision. Supposedly there were also various newspaper articles in the local Israeli media about the lovely new NEK service to TLV. Since TLV was downgraded to A321 they are now flying 4 LH Cargo flights to TLV a week; where is the logic. Also when it comes to cost cutting they can take an example on LX and have the same crew operated the outbound and inbound leg on the night flight and only switch the cockpit crew.

Apparently, there has been no ahead-info for the passengers...

Of course not. A German court has just decided that the M&M award redemption table is not part of M&M's T&Cs and can be changed without prior notice at any time.

It is only logical and fair that LH now assumes that the time table is not part of the transportation contract and can be changed at any time without prior notice. :D

Nevertheles, in this case I agree that there's a good reason for the change. It would just have been nice to inform customers ahead of time.

HTB.

Due to the current conflict (Israel / Gaza), LH makes a stop in ATH for their LH690 (FRA-TLV) to change the crew in Athens so they don't have to overnight in TLV...

Amazing how other carriers' underwear remains unsoiled and they are operating normally. I guess LH knows better. :rolleyes:

Also when it comes to cost cutting they can take an example on LX and have the same crew operated the outbound and inbound leg on the night flight and only switch the cockpit crew.

Exactly. If LH knows how to operate a 12-hour flight with a single flight crew, there is no good reason that they can't operate two back-to-back 4-to-5 hour flights with a single flight crew. They should have been doing that all along.

Exactly. If LH knows how to operate a 12-hour flight with a single flight crew, there is no good reason that they can't operate two back-to-back 4-to-5 hour flights with a single flight crew. They should have been doing that all along.

The last time I flew FRA TLV several months ago, I came in Thursday morning 2am or so and did return friday 3something am, the cabin crew was the same, so they had one day in TLV (but were all tired). That was fare wise one of the most effective trips in my live:), would be a pity if the F gets removed..

I enjoyed TLV very much, we spend the evening after the meetings near the Rothschild Boulevard, very nice place.

would be a pity if the F gets removed..Already has been, as well as any decent sort of Business product.



I enjoyed TLV very much, we spend the evening after the meetings near the Rothschild Boulevard, very nice place.Glad to hear!

Already has been, as well as any decent sort of Business product.


Glad to hear!

I have seen now:( last time I anyway could only sleep one h on the return as I was chatting too much with the cabin crew, and if I take more a day time flight, this should be managable.. but to fly F with a Z ticket was a nice experience:)

TLV, unique place, I wanted to go there in spring again, also to go for a couple of days more to the north (chasing some anarchist white balls), but I have currently a small explanation problem at home, lets see how the dust settles and what BN intends to do after the election (if he gets elected..)

ps. my stomach tells me that we will see a lasting peace in that part of the world in the very near future, I am of course a hopeless optimist, but the stars are moving in the right place..

ps. my stomach tells me that we will see a lasting peace in that part of the world in the very near future, I am of course a hopeless optimist, but the stars are moving in the right place..

You should watch less TV and read media "reports" :) Instead fly over here (even on S/H 321) and enjoy the 22 degrees with sun. :D

Why doesn't LH simply follow the model set by IB, LY, BA, as well as a few other airlines for putting in a proper mid-haul C class seat on these Airbus? Seems like such a tremendous loss in premium product offerings on a route that supposedly did quite well.

You should watch less TV and read media "reports" :) Instead fly over here (even on S/H 321) and enjoy the 22 degrees with sun. :D

Stop it please:(
I thankfully watch very little TV:) If I would, I would not have been in TLV, and it would have been a great loss. This is the most vibrant and most welcoming place I have ever been to.

My lady watches unfortunately a bid more, and all these discovery channel flight desaster things, so she has her own "view".

The last time, I wanted to to extend the stay to have a short vacation, I did even reserve the ticket for her, but no 10 horses..today, she watched during breakfast how some Hamas guys are chanting against Sharon.. (not the newest of stuff) and they showed a firework of images. The only reminder in Israel I got about whats going on there was the cabby showing me on his smartphone his devastated yard from some time ago, still have his number, we made friends in less than 40 minutes taxi ride south of TLV:)

4 hours is a nap, two magazines, a news paper and a meal, don't want to rail against anyone here rooting for something better, but for me it is still in bounds (in C).

You should watch less TV and read media "reports" :) Instead fly over here (even on S/H 321) and enjoy the 22 degrees with sun. :D


I thankfully watch very little TV:) If I would, I would not have been in TLV, and it would have been a great loss. This is the most vibrant and most welcoming place I have ever been to.
My lady watches unfortunately a bit more...

Tell me. Unfortunately, I was outvoted 3-1 by Mrs. SFO and our travel buddies, so New Years in Israel has now become New Years in Spain. Hopefully, next year. And maybe LH will have reinstated long-haul AC.

Tell me. Unfortunately, I was outvoted 3-1 by Mrs. SFO and our travel buddies, so New Years in Israel has now become New Years in Spain. Hopefully, next year. And maybe LH will have reinstated long-haul AC.

We should throw the TVs out of the window and should return to more old school family models, they have too much say (good that she does not read here:)), btw. one of the most laid back and amusing New Years ever I did spend in Girona, no fire works, idiots, whatsoever, until 12 midnight, the whole town was totally deserted, just seconds after mid night and having eaten the 12 grapes (or were it 24), all houses emptyied and the streets were full of people having fun:)

Just returned from Israel. I love Tel Aviv, it slowly becomes one of my favorite cities. Anyone not visiting TLV because he let himself be dictated by TV-induced-fear or other vague reasons misses a great opportunity. Great food, wonderful beaches, nightlife, sightings, history etc etc.

However, I have been (and still are) a great fan and thankfull of the Iron Dome and IDF....
Just my 0.02$
W

Just returned from Israel. I love Tel Aviv, it slowly becomes one of my favorite cities.

It already is... Have to go a lot for work and have many friends there. And it always is my most favorite stop.

Booked a few days ago a reward ticket using United miles to SFO through FRA, sold to me as Biz all the way.
Went to select seats and realized this fake-biz seats. Darn it.
Now looking on united website it is marketed as "single-cabin flight", **uckers! couldn't specify it when I booked it?
Wrote to united, feel really **itty about it, we'll see how goes.
Maybe if they give me F instead of C on the second leg I'll be content.

Booked a few days ago a reward ticket using United miles to SFO through FRA, sold to me as Biz all the way.
Went to select seats and realized this fake-biz seats. Darn it.
Now looking on united website it is marketed as "single-cabin flight", **uckers! couldn't specify it when I booked it?
Wrote to united, feel really **itty about it, we'll see how goes.
Maybe if they give me F instead of C on the second leg I'll be content.

If you are saying that UA put you in Y instead of C, aka the fake-biz... UA.com's "Single cabin flight" on LH short-haul flights is yet another flaw with .bomb. If ANA shows C available, call UA. MP agent should see C, and upgrade that segment.

If you are saying that you just realized that C is the fake-biz, live and learn. You might try LX which still offers real C all the way.

Still hoping that LH will put the long haul product back at least on FRA-TLV as of summer timetable 2013.

Their premium loads really must go down as slowly everyone is aware that you get NEK which will cause you a bad NE(C)K :confused: after paying C and getting thise Y product for a 4 hour flight.

If you are saying that UA put you in Y instead of C, aka the fake-biz... UA.com's "Single cabin flight" on LH short-haul flights is yet another flaw with .bomb. If ANA shows C available, call UA. MP agent should see C, and upgrade that segment.

If you are saying that you just realized that C is the fake-biz, live and learn. You might try LX which still offers real C all the way.

I am right now on the "live-and-learn" path...
But what I'm saying is that the website showed C (which is this fake-biz seats) and now "corrected" to show single-cabin flight, but that's AFTER I booked.
That's all...venting out...hoping for an advice...no response from UA so far.

The commercial chief of FRA (who also makes decisions like the A321 to TLV) recently did a customer contact trip on the TLV flight:

Impulse für Führungskräfte
„Management in Practice“ und „Führungskräfte im Kundendialog“ künftig gebündelt
Unter dem Titel „Kundenorientierung und Marke von innen stärken“ hat FRA PE, die
Personalentwicklung der Lufthansa Passage, Mitte 2012 das Programm für die rund
175 A-, B- und C-Leiter der Passage neu aufgesetzt. Bestandteile sind neben einem
Praxiseinsatz auf der Station oder in der Kabine auch die Bearbeitung von drei
Kundenfeedbacks pro Jahr.


Mehr als die Hälfte der Passage-Führungskräfte hat sich
für mindestens einen der Programmbestandteile über
die Buchungsplattform angemeldet, so auch Dr. Alexis von
Hoensbroech, Leiter Commercial Frankfurt, FRA EN. Von
Hoensbroech flog am 9. November als zusätzliches
Crewmitglied mit der A321 unter der Flugnummer LH 686
von Frankfurt aus nach Tel Aviv und wieder zurück. „Den
Flug nach Tel Aviv habe ich bewusst gewählt“, sagt von
Hoens-broech. Seit Kurzem setzt Lufthansa auf dieser Route
nur noch Kurzstreckenflugzeuge ein, eine Entscheidung, die
von Hoensbroech maßgeblich verantwortet hat.
„Am Anfang wussten die Kabinenmitarbeiter nicht genau,
ob und wie sie mich einsetzen dürfen. Aber dann haben
mich die Kollegen voll in die Serviceabläufe integriert“,
berichtet von Hoensbroech. „Der Flieger war ausgebucht. Ich
habe Mahlzeiten und Getränke serviert und wieder abgeräumt.
Das hat Spaß gemacht, war aber auch anstrengend. “
Lydia Blättler, Purser an Bord des Streckenerfahrungsfluges
von Alexis von Hoensbroech, war begeistert von ihrem
zusätzlichen Teammitglied an diesem Tag. „Herr von
Hoensbroech hat sich sehr gut in den Service integriert. Die
Gäste konnten sich mit Fragen direkt an ihn wenden.“ Von
Hoensbroech: „Viele Kunden waren recht verärgert und
wollten wissen, warum wir für die Tel-Aviv-Strecke nur
noch Kontgerät einsetzen. Ich habe mir viel Zeit genommen,
um ihnen die Gründe für diese unpopuläre Entscheidung
zu erläutern. Zwar hat das den Sitz nicht bequemer
gemacht, aber jeder hatte am Ende zumindest Verständnis
für die Entscheidung. Natürlich bleibt eine gewisse Enttäuschung,
die künftige Kaufentscheidungen beeinflussen
dürfte. Das haben wir allerdings einkalkuliert, und angesichts
der Streckenergebnisse war die Maßnahme notwendig.“
Auch Blättler und ihr Team profitierten von den Erläuterungen
des Managers. „Diese Hintergrundinformationen über
die Umstellung auf Kurzstrecke machen uns das Gespräch
mit dem Kunden leichter. Nur wenn wir im Vorfeld ausreichend
informiert werden, können wir solche Entscheidungen
der Firma auch vertreten.“
Gutes Management sei nur möglich, wenn man beide Seiten
betrachtet, lautet das Fazit von Alexis von Hoensbroech. „Ich
kann allen Führungskräften nur empfehlen, einen Praxiseinsatz
zu buchen. Ich konnte für meine Arbeit wertvolle Impulse
sammeln. Die Kundenperspektive kennen wir Manager ja
recht gut von unseren Dienst- und Privatreisen, aber die
Perspektive unserer operativen Mitarbeiter erleben wir nicht.
Dabei haben viele Entscheidungen, die wir am Schreibtisch
treffen, unmittelbare Auswirkungen auf unsere Kollegen an
der Front.“
Während von Hoensbroech sich für einen Einsatz an Bord
entschieden hat, schaute Jost Lauter, Leiter Crewplanung &
Service Kabine, MUC EK/U, unter anderem den Service
Professionals am Gate in München über die Schulter. „Beeindruckt
hat mich, dass bei der Suche nach einem fehlenden
Gast aus Kolumbien sofort eine Kollegin am Gate war, die in
fließendem Spanisch eine Ansage machen konnte – einfach
toll, was die Kollegen Tag für Tag leisten“, sagt Lauter.
Außer seinem Einsatz am Gate besuchte Lauter den Betreuungsdienst,
ließ sich erklären, was es am Lost-and-Found-
Schalter jeden Tag zu tun gibt, und nahm an einer der täglichen
Abschlussbesprechungen zwischen dem Verkehrsleiter
vom Dienst, Franz Pfaffinger, und dem HOC-Schichtleiter
Stefan Dürr teil. „Ich habe mich für den Tag auf der Station
München entschieden, denn die detaillierten Abläufe im
Stationsbereich kenne ich
noch nicht. Ich konnte viele
wichtige Erfahrungen sammeln.
Das ‚Management in
Practice‘-
Programm ist eine wichtige
Horizonterweiterung“, sagt
Lauter.
„Durch das persönliche
Erleben von Prozessen und
Produkten aus Sicht der
Mitarbeiter im operativen Bereich erhalten die Führungskräfte
wertvolle Hinweise zur Verbesserung unserer Qualität.
Gleichzeitig stärken wir die Marke von innen“, sagt
Peter Gerber, Passagevorstand Personal & Infrastrukturleistungen.
„Deshalb unterstütze ich dieses Programm uneingeschränkt“,
so Gerber.
„Der erfolgreiche Start des Programms ist auch auf die
hervorragende Zusammenarbeit mit den Fachbereichen
von der Station, den fliegerischen Bereichen und dem
Kundenfeedbackmanagement zurückzuführen. Ziel ist es,
Service Excellence auch auf der Ebene des Managements
zu leben und allen operativen Mitarbeitern zu signalisieren,
wie wichtig uns unsere Kunden sind. Gleichzeitig
erhalten die Führungskräfte einen tieferen Einblick in die
tägliche Praxis. Dieses Ziel
kann aber nur durch eine
maximale Teilnehmeranzahl
unter den Führungskräften
erreicht werden“, sagt
Matthias Borchers, Leiter
Personalentwicklung Passage,
FRA PE.


The commercial chief of FRA (who also makes decisions like the A321 to TLV) recently did a customer contact trip on the TLV flight:

"... It is true that the seat is not comfortable... "
At least the guy is honest. :D

Let's see, in a year I am sure this route will not fill more than an A320. Also LH could've saved in other ways on this route such as more economical air speed, operation of the flights with minimum crews as found with their daughter LX. Due to the A32S used LH needs to operate now a few times a week a MD11 Cargo aircraft to TLV, this also makes addtional costs.

Chance for translation/summary for non German speakers?

Tried google translate - was impossible to read.

Chance for translation/summary for non German speakers? Tried google translate - was impossible to read.

It's not that bad. I tried the google translation and I got the gist of it...

"...We've received a lot of complaints. Yes, the product sucks and people are booking away from us, but we took that into account in our analysis of the impact before we made the decision. Blah, blah, blah..."

Let's see, in a year I am sure this route will not fill more than an A320. Also LH could've saved in other ways on this route such as more economical air speed, operation of the flights with minimum crews as found with their daughter LX. Due to the A32S used LH needs to operate now a few times a week a MD11 Cargo aircraft to TLV, this also makes addtional costs.

Most cargo actually generates decent income, and it doesn't complain. ;)
It is the profitable transport of live 50-100kg carbon units to from FRA to TLV that is the problem LH can't seem to solve...

The commercial chief of FRA (who also makes decisions like the A321 to TLV) recently did a customer contact trip on the TLV flight:

Impulse für Führungskräfte
„Management in Practice“ und „Führungskräfte im Kundendialog“ künftig gebündelt
Unter dem Titel „Kundenorientierung und Marke von innen stärken“ hat FRA PE, die
Personalentwicklung der Lufthansa Passage, Mitte 2012 das Programm für die rund
175 A-, B- und C-Leiter der Passage neu aufgesetzt. Bestandteile sind neben einem
Praxiseinsatz auf der Station oder in der Kabine auch die Bearbeitung von drei
Kundenfeedbacks pro Jahr.


Mehr als die Hälfte der Passage-Führungskräfte hat sich
für mindestens einen der Programmbestandteile über
die Buchungsplattform angemeldet, so auch Dr. Alexis von
Hoensbroech, Leiter Commercial Frankfurt, FRA EN. Von
Hoensbroech flog am 9. November als zusätzliches
Crewmitglied mit der A321 unter der Flugnummer LH 686
von Frankfurt aus nach Tel Aviv und wieder zurück. „Den
Flug nach Tel Aviv habe ich bewusst gewählt“, sagt von
Hoens-broech. Seit Kurzem setzt Lufthansa auf dieser Route
nur noch Kurzstreckenflugzeuge ein, eine Entscheidung, die
von Hoensbroech maßgeblich verantwortet hat.
„Am Anfang wussten die Kabinenmitarbeiter nicht genau,
ob und wie sie mich einsetzen dürfen. Aber dann haben
mich die Kollegen voll in die Serviceabläufe integriert“,
berichtet von Hoensbroech. „Der Flieger war ausgebucht. Ich
habe Mahlzeiten und Getränke serviert und wieder abgeräumt.
Das hat Spaß gemacht, war aber auch anstrengend. “
Lydia Blättler, Purser an Bord des Streckenerfahrungsfluges
von Alexis von Hoensbroech, war begeistert von ihrem
zusätzlichen Teammitglied an diesem Tag. „Herr von
Hoensbroech hat sich sehr gut in den Service integriert. Die
Gäste konnten sich mit Fragen direkt an ihn wenden.“ Von
Hoensbroech: „Viele Kunden waren recht verärgert und
wollten wissen, warum wir für die Tel-Aviv-Strecke nur
noch Kontgerät einsetzen. Ich habe mir viel Zeit genommen,
um ihnen die Gründe für diese unpopuläre Entscheidung
zu erläutern. Zwar hat das den Sitz nicht bequemer
gemacht, aber jeder hatte am Ende zumindest Verständnis
für die Entscheidung. Natürlich bleibt eine gewisse Enttäuschung,
die künftige Kaufentscheidungen beeinflussen
dürfte. Das haben wir allerdings einkalkuliert, und angesichts
der Streckenergebnisse war die Maßnahme notwendig.“
Auch Blättler und ihr Team profitierten von den Erläuterungen
des Managers. „Diese Hintergrundinformationen über
die Umstellung auf Kurzstrecke machen uns das Gespräch
mit dem Kunden leichter. Nur wenn wir im Vorfeld ausreichend
informiert werden, können wir solche Entscheidungen
der Firma auch vertreten.“
Gutes Management sei nur möglich, wenn man beide Seiten
betrachtet, lautet das Fazit von Alexis von Hoensbroech. „Ich
kann allen Führungskräften nur empfehlen, einen Praxiseinsatz
zu buchen. Ich konnte für meine Arbeit wertvolle Impulse
sammeln. Die Kundenperspektive kennen wir Manager ja
recht gut von unseren Dienst- und Privatreisen, aber die
Perspektive unserer operativen Mitarbeiter erleben wir nicht.
Dabei haben viele Entscheidungen, die wir am Schreibtisch
treffen, unmittelbare Auswirkungen auf unsere Kollegen an
der Front.“
Während von Hoensbroech sich für einen Einsatz an Bord
entschieden hat, schaute Jost Lauter, Leiter Crewplanung &
Service Kabine, MUC EK/U, unter anderem den Service
Professionals am Gate in München über die Schulter. „Beeindruckt
hat mich, dass bei der Suche nach einem fehlenden
Gast aus Kolumbien sofort eine Kollegin am Gate war, die in
fließendem Spanisch eine Ansage machen konnte – einfach
toll, was die Kollegen Tag für Tag leisten“, sagt Lauter.
Außer seinem Einsatz am Gate besuchte Lauter den Betreuungsdienst,
ließ sich erklären, was es am Lost-and-Found-
Schalter jeden Tag zu tun gibt, und nahm an einer der täglichen
Abschlussbesprechungen zwischen dem Verkehrsleiter
vom Dienst, Franz Pfaffinger, und dem HOC-Schichtleiter
Stefan Dürr teil. „Ich habe mich für den Tag auf der Station
München entschieden, denn die detaillierten Abläufe im
Stationsbereich kenne ich
noch nicht. Ich konnte viele
wichtige Erfahrungen sammeln.
Das ‚Management in
Practice‘-
Programm ist eine wichtige
Horizonterweiterung“, sagt
Lauter.
„Durch das persönliche
Erleben von Prozessen und
Produkten aus Sicht der
Mitarbeiter im operativen Bereich erhalten die Führungskräfte
wertvolle Hinweise zur Verbesserung unserer Qualität.
Gleichzeitig stärken wir die Marke von innen“, sagt
Peter Gerber, Passagevorstand Personal & Infrastrukturleistungen.
„Deshalb unterstütze ich dieses Programm uneingeschränkt“,
so Gerber.
„Der erfolgreiche Start des Programms ist auch auf die
hervorragende Zusammenarbeit mit den Fachbereichen
von der Station, den fliegerischen Bereichen und dem
Kundenfeedbackmanagement zurückzuführen. Ziel ist es,
Service Excellence auch auf der Ebene des Managements
zu leben und allen operativen Mitarbeitern zu signalisieren,
wie wichtig uns unsere Kunden sind. Gleichzeitig
erhalten die Führungskräfte einen tieferen Einblick in die
tägliche Praxis. Dieses Ziel
kann aber nur durch eine
maximale Teilnehmeranzahl
unter den Führungskräften
erreicht werden“, sagt
Matthias Borchers, Leiter
Personalentwicklung Passage,
FRA PE.



Thanks for this.
I like the part where he admits that the seats suck! Unbelievable.
Really their loss, LX still has a proper offering at least.
Truth is though, for those of us connecting to North America we have a more than adequate offering, between AC,UA,US and even DL we'll be ok.

It's our European colleagues who will suffer. Our Belgium office used to send everyone via FRA on LH, no more. The backlash was too severe. I think they've arranged for a contract with LY.

Well anyways, point is that this downgrade is gunna cause lots more headaches than it is already.

Thanks for this...

...It's our European colleges who will suffer. Our Belgium office used to send everyone via FRA on LH, no more...

Well anyways, point is that this downgrade is gunna cause lots more headaches than it is already.

(today): "The FRA/TLV market conditions simply do not support intercontinental service, so we are switching to continental service..."

(next year): "The market conditions on the FRA/TLV route are such that we can no longer continue this service"

..and so it goes...

I witnessed the same dynamic/excuses with service to CAN, a relatively wealthy industrial city of 15 million people or so and the third largest in China (and a lot of German-speaking traffic, based on the conversations I overhear in hotel lobbies)...

I am sure others here can cite their own anecdotal examples.

One wonders: is it really the "market conditions", or is it the product being offered, or is it the organization offering the product, or the management leading the organization that offers the product...or the Board that hires the Management...or what? :confused:

(today):
I witnessed the same dynamic/excuses with service to CAN, a relatively wealthy industrial city of 15 million people or so and the third largest in China (and a lot of German-speaking traffic, based on the conversations I overhear in hotel lobbies)...

+1

(today): "The FRA/TLV market conditions simply do not support intercontinental service, so we are switching to continental service..."

(next year): "The market conditions on the FRA/TLV route are such that we can no longer continue this service"

..and so it goes...

I witnessed the same dynamic/excuses with service to CAN, a relatively wealthy industrial city of 15 million people or so and the third largest in China (and a lot of German-speaking traffic, based on the conversations I overhear in hotel lobbies)...

I am sure others here can cite their own anecdotal examples.

One wonders: is it really the "market conditions", or is it the product being offered, or is it the organization offering the product, or the management leading the organization that offers the product...or the Board that hires the Management...or what? :confused:

This is what we will see with lounges next year.

1.) ban FTLs from the Business lounge or ask them to cough up €25
2.) ban *Gs from lounges when travelling on 4U

Next step will be to give up two separate lounge at airports (C lounge and SEN lounges) as there is not enough traffic to support both.
I guess the SEN lounges will go first and there will only be one Business lounge - if at all.
Quote predictable actually.

This is what we will see with lounges next year.

1.) ban FTLs from the Business lounge or ask them to cough up €25
2.) ban *Gs from lounges when travelling on 4U

Next step will be to give up two separate lounge at airports (C lounge and SEN lounges) as there is not enough traffic to support both.
I guess the SEN lounges will go first and there will only be one Business lounge - if at all.
Quote predictable actually.

And then, until the number of HONs has been chopped down to only those flying C or F, no more FCT/FCL access for HONs flying whY.

And then, until the number of HONs has been chopped down to only those flying C or F, no more FCT/FCL access for HONs flying whY.

I predict this for 2014 if not prior to.

One wonders: is it really the "market conditions", or is it the product being offered, or is it the organization offering the product, or the management leading the organization that offers the product...or the Board that hires the Management...or what? :confused:
.. or maybe problems with landing rights in pure democracies as China or overflight rights in pure democracies as Russia or... whatever. Lots of room for speculation...

.. or maybe problems with landing rights in pure democracies as China or overflight rights in pure democracies as Russia or... whatever. Lots of room for speculation...

Speculation is fun, sometimes especially in mixed company, but adding facts to the discussion makes it harder to speculate wildly.

Unfortunately, in the cases of TLV and CAN I only have a few facts available to me at this time:

--some airlines offer wide-body intl. C-class service to TLV and LH does not.
--most (if not all) EU-based major airlines do NOT offer wide-body premium service to TLV.


--most (if all) EU-based major airlines do NOT non-stop service to CAN.

So, without stretching logic too much, one might speculate that:
--LH was trying to fill niches in the market with services no one else was offering, and retreated, AND/OR
--LH finally learned something that their competitors have already known and fell in line with them.

My interest in speculations centers primarily on a.) what motivated to LH offer these (apparently unique services EX-EU) in the first place, and b.)why they failed...

--most (if all) EU-based major airlines do NOT non-stop service to CAN.

Except AFKL and reportedly next year BA.

--some airlines offer wide-body intl. C-class service to TLV and LH does not.
--most (if not all) EU-based major airlines do NOT offer wide-body premium service to TLV.Surely you're aware that LX offer a wide-body on the route, so it is most definitely not all, and while BA no longer offer a wide-body aircraft on the TLV route (for now...) you cannot compare the A321 they are flying (3 x Daily), as they have installed a proper Long Haul hard product on it (C seats identical to LX's).

Speculation is fun, sometimes especially in mixed company, but adding facts to the discussion makes it harder to speculate wildly.

Unfortunately, in the cases of TLV and CAN I only have a few facts available to me at this time:

--some airlines offer wide-body intl. C-class service to TLV and LH does not.
--most (if not all) EU-based major airlines do NOT offer wide-body premium service to TLV.


Now, add to the equation the fact that HON/SEN numbers based in TLV are high (and while not supported by numbers, I think that *A is the most popular alliance, and more *G people in TLV than in OW/ST), add to the equation the Israeli high-tech doing TLV->West coast/Far east/... on the last minute (many B,Y tickets as well, not just C/J/D/), and factor the fact that many people do their flights without Sunday rule (due to Shabbat issues), and you obtain quite a few high-yield costumers who preferred LH because of the C-cabin, IFE, nice planes (amazing how even the older 747s look with comparison's to LY's), who will actually stop flying LH.

As a personal example - my next trip is going to be on Y/B-class, and while in the past I was temped enough to pay the upgrade to C out of my own pocket (~150$ to EU, in the past), I now actually prefer to fly Y, where I (still) get some more legroom at exit seat row, and same lack of power socket ...

Surely you're aware that LX offer a wide-body on the route, so it is most definitely not all, and while BA no longer offer a wide-body aircraft on the TLV route (for now...) you cannot compare the A321 they are flying (3 x Daily), as they have installed a proper Long Haul hard product on it (C seats identical to LX's).

IB flies the A340 MAD-TLV although not necessarily daily. And I believe their short haul flights to TLV all have proper/real 2x2 J seating.

Surely you're aware that LX offer a wide-body on the route, so it is most definitely not all, and while BA no longer offer a wide-body aircraft on the TLV route (for now...) you cannot compare the A321 they are flying (3 x Daily), as they have installed a proper Long Haul hard product on it (C seats identical to LX's).

I stand corrected. :)

Excellent point also that BA offers a proper hard product.

This increases my curiosity as to why LH would choose to NEK their customers on this route...

Except AFKL and reportedly next year BA.

Thanks, I didn't know that. Is the current non-stop from to CAN ex- CDG or AMS? and is it daily? Since moving to the EU (and indeed in the middle of LH territory), I need an excuse to use SkyTeam once in a while...;)

Thanks, I didn't know that. Is the current non-stop from to CAN ex- CDG or AMS? and is it daily? Since moving to the EU (and indeed in the middle of LH territory), I need an excuse to use SkyTeam once in a while...;)

CDG (AF). Daily AFAIK although you may want to check if travelling after or close to CNY as the airlines tend to readjust their schedules for that period (Feb 2013- late for CNY next year).

CDG (AF). Daily AFAIK although you may want to check if travelling after or close to CNY as the airlines tend to readjust their schedules for that period (Feb 2013- late for CNY next year).

Thank you. Yes, there is a nice window this year to actually get some work done between the solar and lunar new years...

IB flies the A340 MAD-TLV although not necessarily daily. And I believe their short haul flights to TLV all have proper/real 2x2 J seating.Very true, while the A340 is offered occasionally, the Mid Haul A319s have a proper business seat which is very comfy (not flat bad good enough for length of flight).

Also, not EU based of course but LY do offer a proper business hard product on their narrow bodies to FRA.

Surely you're aware that LX offer a wide-body on the route, so it is most definitely not all, and while BA no longer offer a wide-body aircraft on the TLV route (for now...) you cannot compare the A321 they are flying (3 x Daily), as they have installed a proper Long Haul hard product on it (C seats identical to LX's).

And dont forget Iberia which chopped their C service to the Fake-Biz like LH and then realized their mistake and installed decent C seats back, so although not a wide-body, it still feels like C and not crappy domestic fake-biz.

And we can all see how well they're doing :D

Yep, I would not mind at all if LH flew with narrow bodies instead of wide bodies to TLV and other similar destinations. But at least the could do it the BA/LY way and offer a propper C hard product on these flights. But that would certainly decrease LHs flexibility with deploying their "kont-geraet" (short haul fleet) on various routes.

I cannot comment on IBs product but try to stay away from them anyway. Uninspired FAs, poor service and a fairly high chance to miss your connection in MAD :mad:

And dont forget IberiaIndeed, read my post above...

I cannot comment on IBs product but try to stay away from them anyway. Uninspired FAs, poor service and a fairly high chance to miss your connection in MAD :mad:

Had excellent service recently MAD-TLV.

Why high chance of missing connection?

Had excellent service recently MAD-TLV.

Why high chance of missing connection?

Well in the last 18 month or so I connected in MAD (luckily only) 6 times. Of these 12 IB legs in total 10 were delayed and I missed my connection 4 times. I had to stay overnight in MAD twice and it was all just a mess.

Well in the last 18 month or so I connected in MAD (luckily only) 6 times. Of these 12 IB legs in total 10 were delayed and I missed my connection 4 times. I had to stay overnight in MAD twice and it was all just a mess.

With the inevitable risk of jinxing myself for future connections- fortunately MAD has not led to a misconnect for me in more than 5 years now.... I suppose it is the role of the proverbial dice at all European hubs particularly in the winter. The only "nice" thing about a misconnection at Madrid is that there is some seriously good food nearby in the centro.

..."nice" thing about a misconnection at Madrid is that there is some seriously good food nearby in the centro.

This is getting off topic, but +1^^
***********

My take from recent comments here boil down the the following points (my emphasis added):

the Mid Haul A319s have a proper business seat which is very comfy (not flat bad good enough for length of flight).

Yep, I would not mind at all if LH flew with narrow bodies instead of wide bodies to TLV and other similar destinations. But at least the could do it the BA/LY way and offer a propper C hard product on these flights. But that would certainly decrease LHs flexibility with deploying their "kont-geraet" (short haul fleet) on various routes.


So it seems that customers want (and seem willing to pay some kind of premium for) a "proper" C hard product on the TLV (and other mid-distance) routes.

Since I like numbers, I went to a mapping application and looked at a few routes to see what the flight time is:

Route: Distance: Flight Time (M=0,82):
LHR/TLV: 2233 mi 4:07
MAD/TLV: 2207 mi 4:04
FRA/TLV: 1837 mi 3:24
ZRH/TLV: 1747 mi 3:14
(note those are [distance / speed] flight times, not scheduled block times)

4+ hours (total block time) does seem to be a long time to sit on a NEK seat while paying a C fare-basis. Customers who pay for C probably expect more than they are currently getting with LH on the TLV route. I speculate that the lack of content in the FRA/TLV product is eroding and will continue to erode the LH share of the EU/TLV market (perhaps leading to the death spiral described earlier).


But that would certainly decrease LHs flexibility with deploying their "kont-geraet" (short haul fleet) on various routes.


I am sure adding proper C-product to some of the narrow body equipment costs a lot, and reduces some flexibility.

But how much does it cost, how much does it reduce "flexibility", and does it make your product offerings to your customers more flexible, so that one might even capture more premium revenue with a (not so huge) cut in capacity?

I am not convinced it would destroy LH operations planning or cost structure if once in a while they had to operate an A32x with real C seats FRA/DRS/MUC (or some such route) to keep equipment properly positioned in order to provide decent middle-distance ("transcontinental") service. It might even be a nice surprise for some of the customers.


Zwar hat das den Sitz nicht bequemer
gemacht, aber jeder hatte am Ende zumindest Verständnis
für die Entscheidung.


Note: Understanding a decision and agreeing with it are not the same thing.

The shift in LH management attitude away from doing things customers want and will pay for (which is hard work and takes imagination) toward doing what is convenient for them (because they made some bad bets and have dug themselves into a hole they are not sure they can get out of), is a topic I will take up again in the "smarter than LH executive thread" in coming days...

I might also point out that the continued scaling back of service (both schedule and equipment) on many routes does seem to run counter to the (publicly stated) strategy of being 'the leading airline to, from and within Europe' and tarnishes the reputation as a 'premium airline'.

I need to understand how SWISS is capable to run the TLV route economical with a long haul product and LH didn't considering as well the extra revenue LH generated from selling more premium seats. It's not like LH needed the aircraft and use them instead to TLV to some ultra high yielding destination. In the contrary LH has enough spare aircraft available.

I'm flying to TLV from FRA once or twice each year -- in Y. (It's the routing I have experienced the largest number of upgrades to C, so I always assumed that they need a widebody simply because they need a lot of seats.)

I certainly resent the change to continental service because I enjoyed the IFE, so I was looking for alternatives.

I didn't find any for "normal" departures: FRA am departure, arrival in the afternoon, TLV pm departure, arrival early evening. Pretty much everything I did find was evening FRA departure for midnight arrival and early am TLV departure.

The Swiss flight departs very early and seems to be solidly booked as far as my dates go. I'll probably end up booking LH again :-/

HTB.

I need to understand how SWISS is capable to run the TLV route economical with a long haul product and LH didn't considering as well the extra revenue LH generated from selling more premium seats. It's not like LH needed the aircraft and use them instead to TLV to some ultra high yielding destination. In the contrary LH has enough spare aircraft available.

Expect the route ZRH <> TLV to have a higher profile in terms of net value of passengers and cabin luggage..So the ticket price is not that important on this route.

Does anybody have photos of the S/H fake biz cabin they can post?

http://www.reise-wahnsinn.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/neue_sitze.jpgDoes anybody have photos of the S/H fake biz cabin they can post?

http://www.reise-wahnsinn.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/neue_sitze.jpg

Why would anyone complain about 4 hours in those plush and comfy seats? :D:D

Why would anyone complain about 4 hours in those plush and comfy seats? :D:D

.... if someone can complain already after a 40 minute flight frm ZRH to FRA on those lovely seats :D:D:D

4+ hours (total block time) does seem to be a long time to sit on a NEK seat while paying a C fare-basis. Customers who pay for C probably expect more than they are currently getting with LH on the TLV route. I speculate that the lack of content in the FRA/TLV product is eroding and will continue to erode the LH share of the EU/TLV market (perhaps leading to the death spiral described earlier).



I am sure adding proper C-product to some of the narrow body equipment costs a lot, and reduces some flexibility.

But how much does it cost, how much does it reduce "flexibility", and does it make your product offerings to your customers more flexible, so that one might even capture more premium revenue with a (not so huge) cut in capacity?

I am not convinced it would destroy LH operations planning or cost structure if once in a while they had to operate an A32x with real C seats FRA/DRS/MUC (or some such route) to keep equipment properly positioned in order to provide decent middle-distance ("transcontinental") service. It might even be a nice surprise for some of the customers.



Note: Understanding a decision and agreeing with it are not the same thing.

The shift in LH management attitude away from doing things customers want and will pay for (which is hard work and takes imagination) toward doing what is convenient for them (because they made some bad bets and have dug themselves into a hole they are not sure they can get out of), is a topic I will take up again in the "smarter than LH executive thread" in coming days...

I might also point out that the continued scaling back of service (both schedule and equipment) on many routes does seem to run counter to the (publicly stated) strategy of being 'the leading airline to, from and within Europe' and tarnishes the reputation as a 'premium airline'.

Looks like LH management decided to listen again to some expensive consultants they probably hired that have no clue from the daily airline work and only look at naked numbers...If I remember correct Mr. Franz said aproximately a year ago that a low cost airline is no option for LH well some consultants probably see it differently let's hope the concept Germanwings will work for them.

And No if they kill the TLV route they will loose lots of premium traffic that will hurt in the long run...Again LH fogets that most passengers are only connecting via FRA. I don't think it's a problem to operate TLV with an A321 however looking at the distance you can't serve it with the NEK product that's really low cost airline style and not something to expect from a premium airline. As a hug carier you must rely on feder flighs and TLV is in a special situation being a premium feder looking at the distance and the amount of HON's, SEN's and FTL's based in Israel. Of course if in ATH there would be the same situation it is clear that this route can't be operated by lon haul planes however TLV wiith it's 4 hour flight time is absolutely to long for NEK hence the premium traffic will switch to the competition of which only part of it will go to the daughter airline SWISS and who knows maybe the same stupd idea to replace the A333 to A321's is already in the making...

http://www.reise-wahnsinn.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/neue_sitze.jpg

OMFG this looks worse than domestic IB :mad:

But hey, the middle seat remains empty. Maybe....
W

The regular C travellers on the route, not to mention the HONs, surely must have switched to LX now?

The regular C travellers on the route, not to mention the HONs, surely must have switched to LX now?

Yes. And to BA.

Yes. And to BA.Yes, makes sense, especially as I assume price wise nothing has changed and people are still paying the same Prices for C as before.

Can imagine there are still some pretty shocked passengers booking C on the route, to then discover this when walking into the plane...

just booked a ticket with LH to TLV in Y, no seat selection allowed in advance like flights within Europe, was this changed together with the downgrade to s/h?

Yes, makes sense, especially as I assume price wise nothing has changed and people are still paying the same Prices for C as before.

Can imagine there are still some pretty shocked passengers booking C on the route, to then discover this when walking into the plane...

It will take a while until everyone has noticed and the passenger figures go down significantly. However as long as LH can fill their A321's to FRA they will not reconsider. By the time the route only fills A321's I am sure they will as their plan was to loose the premium volume that filled the A343 / A346's to A321's, but going below than that surely wasn't their idea either.

You are, actually posted even better picture with hard, rear wall on it. Last time I flew on FRA-TLV route, there were mere curtains and not even C class kits!!! Only small bottle of water and a wet napkin (probably meaning: "go, ..... wipe yourself"!) ;)

I am on the FRA flight now at the gate in TLV. Wow are these seats hard. AF has the same seats but they are softer somehow. I will definitely consider BA more for long haul even in Y. I have flown the new BA 321s and they are much nicer than this including great AVOD. To SFO even US is better than this! To-From Europe I see myself flying TK more, especially with that great lounge in IST. Big disappointment.

After having flown the route numerous times, I complained (along with every other pax on board) to LH. I got a reply and attach this for your enjoyment. LH Customer Service really does not get it...

So, this the initial email from LH

We are writing today in regards to a report we received from our crew onboard your flight LH687 from Tel Aviv to Frankfurt on 19 December 2012. As a Senator Card holder and one of our most valued customers, we appreciate your patience whilst waiting for a response in regards to this matter.

We fully understand your frustration when you found that your in-flight entertainment screen and the electrical power supplies on this journey did not work. We can certainly appreciate that this affected your comfort levels during your flight with us.

Kindly allow us to explain that in order to ensure a high degree of user comfort in practice and to be able to take the demands of our aircraft passengers into account, we performed extensive tests before installing the individual screens onboard. Unfortunately, despite our thorough maintenance in advance, system problems may still occur in isolated cases since there is always a slight possibility of malfunction when using a large number of electronic entertainment devices. Our crews will try to assist with minor faults however, on occasions more technical expertise is required. We confirm that we have notified the responsible department of your concerns for their internal handling.

It is not our endeavor to compromise the experience for our valued customers and we certainly do not take this feedback lightly. In addition, when our product fails to meet our customer’s expectation we feel it important to acknowledge this and appeal for a degree of understanding. We are therefore pleased to advise that we have credited your Miles and More account with 10000 air miles as a token of our apologies.

It is very important to us to be able to look upon you as one of our valued customers, and we hope that you will continue to fly with Lufthansa in the future. Please be assured that we will do our utmost to make sure that your future flights with us are enjoyable in every way.

Yours sincerely,


To which I replied:

am quite certain that your entirely wrong response was not your fault, and I am also quite certain that the report filed by the very, very good crew on board of my flight was not factually wrong.

Your response rather quite clearly highlights the problems of Customer Service that uses canned responses. As always, using a formula only works, if the case fits the fact pattern for which the formula was devised. Sadly, this was not the case. As such, I will be very happy to show this conversation in my teachings as how to NOT handle customer complaints - of course, in an anonymized way.

I also suggest you forward this thread to your supervisor - again, picking the wrong canned response will not have been your fault, but it shows there is somehting wrong with the system in which you work.

Now, what was my complaint about? Lufthansa changed the flight gear for the FRA-TLV routes from a wide-body plane to a narrowbody A 321, that is configured with the European C, a product sadly lacking and certainly not worth the price increase over Economy.

The loss of comfort, quality in terms of seating, entertaiment and food was not off-set whatsoever by the price paid. Lufthansa quite simply degraded the product, but left the price intact. Thus, my complaint had nothing to do whatsoever with non-functioning in seat entertainment: there WAS NO in seat entertainment. Therefore, no inspection would have been able to cure the defect!

The only positive thing about this flight - and also the flight to TLV - was the crew. This is where LH actually has a superior product: the patience and good humor of the crew to handle the quite substantive compaints of passengers, who rightly so felt cheated, at having to pay a quite high C fare, but not finding themselves in the cabin they had anticpated. Suffice it so say that I have sympathy, and actually a lot of it, for the crews, who have to defend a decision not of their making, which infuriates passengers!

Certainly, I am not in a position to question the decision of LH managment to downgrade the equipment. They will have reasons for this.

I am however positive that for this product, I cannot with good conscience ask my clients or my company to pay a C fare. With this sentiment, I am certain, I will not be alone, but this will be shared by many, at least after flying with the new equipment once. Thus, of course I will continue to fly LH, as this simply is convenient; but I will not pay upwards of 2.500 EUR for C, but rather book the cheapest Eco fare available.


Now guess what: here is the LH reply::D

Thank you for your continued correspondence. We appreciate your kind patience whilst waiting for our response.

We note from your feedback that our previous email of 3 January 2013 did not meet your expectations. Please be advised that this was unintentional and it was in no way our intention to disregard your status as a Senator. We offer our sincere apologies for this unfortunate misunderstanding.

Kindly allow us to explain that the cabin report we received regarding your flight LH687 from Tel Aviv to Frankfurt had regrettably been misinterpreted in relation to the lack of in-flight entertainment and no electronic power supply in the seats.

We now understand from your correspondence and from further information from our cabin crew that a change prior to departure had resulted in a smaller aircraft being used on this segment of your journey, which unfortunately did not have the amenities you had expected when you booked your flights. We appreciate your understanding, however, that in order to be able to continue providing a service when unavoidable situations occur prior to departure, we make use of the smaller aircraft, which meet aviation standards on safety and reliability.

Nevertheless, it is of the utmost importance to us that you are comfortable and relaxed onboard our flights. We can only offer our most sincere apologies that this was not the case on this occasion.

Thank you once again for giving us the opportunity to respond regarding this matter. Please do not hesitate to write to us again in the future. As a Senator Card holder your feedback is greatly appreciated since it helps us to further improve our service.

Lufthansa makes every effort to provide the highest possible standard of service in all areas of our operations, and we hope for the opportunity to welcome you on board in the future in an effort to regain your confidence. Thank you again for your patience and understanding.

Yours sincerely,



To which I replied::D:confused::rolleyes:
this is taking on a level of absurdity that is quite beyond what I had expected...Lovely und brilliant. I amstarting to be quite concerend that obviously I am not able to make myself understood. This is of great concern to me. Or, maybe, there is another reaosn for receiving yet another non-sequitur?

Now, again: there was no change made prior to departure. The airplane flying the route was downgraded. NOT for this one flight due to some unexpected mishap...this can always happen and would be no cause of concern for me... BUT, rather, LH has choosen to ALWAYS (or at least for the time being!) to DOWNGRADE the equipment.

I suggest you now route this thread to the appropriate channels, or I shall do so. Again, your email gives ample evidence to the fact that customer service on canned responses does not work.

Thus, again: I AM COMPLAINING BECAUSE LH HAS MADE A PASSENGER UNFRIENDLY DECISION TO DOWNGRADE THE METAL FOR ALL FLIGHTS ON THE GERMANY-TLV ROUTES.

I hope I have now managed to reach a level of lucidity that allows a response that actually has a connection to my complaint.


Now, let´s see what comes up next...


here is the reply:

Thank you once again for your continued correspondence and please accept our apologies for any further inconvenience and frustration caused.

Kindly allow us to explain that we have regrettably misinterpreted the basis of this complaint. We appreciate your understanding that the cabin report did not refer to the utilisation of smaller aircrafts when travelling to and from Tel Aviv. As we understood from the cabin report, the aircraft had been changed prior to departure and no in-flight amenities were available to our Business class passengers. Therefore, we responded in what we considered to be an adequate manner.

As we now fully understand that your concerns are related to the use of smaller aircrafts on this route, please kindly allow us to explain the background of our recent decision. For us it is important that you know these and we hope that we can gain your understanding for it.

Lufthansa’s largest ever investment in new state-of-the art, fuel efficient aircraft, will allow the company to expand during this decade and offer its customers in Israel and around the world the widest network of destinations. Currently, the order books for Lufthansa stand at 168 aircraft, which at list price are worth 17 billion euro. A further 3.6 billion euro are earmarked to upgrade Lufthansa’s current fleet with the latest generation of onboard products as well as upgrade existing lounge and ground facilities at Lufthansa’s German hubs.

According to our customers’ requests we include new destinations in our flight plan and increase flight frequencies whenever there is a demand for it. Consequently, we have to adapt our flight operation schedules from time to time. Besides the current aircraft availability the respective demand in the destination area plays a major role when deciding which aircraft type will be used on which routing. As part of the company’s financial preparations for the mentioned multiyear investment and in order to increase global profitability of the Lufthansa fleet, it has been decided to operate long haul aircraft strictly on long haul flights and not short flights such as those from Frankfurt and Munich to Tel Aviv.

A benefit for our passengers will be one in schedule. The daily night flight from Frankfurt will, effective from the winter schedule; depart around 7:30 PM, offering you an arrival in Tel Aviv around midnight, instead of 3:30 am, currently. Apart from that, you may rest assured that our Product Management constantly examines different options how existing differences regarding the service concept could be best compensated.

The Israeli market has always been and will always be of prime importance for Lufthansa. Since the start of June, Lufthansa operates 21 weekly flights between Germany to Tel Aviv, offering Lufthansa customers 4 daily flights on Sundays and Saturdays, the key days for corporate and leisure travel, respectively. This is an unprecedented number of flights, ever operated by the company to and from Israel.

In regards to the pricing as such, we do consider direct flights to be of a higher value as they are more convenient for our passengers. Our pricing is furthermore based on the general availability on offer, the individual load capacity as well as on the purchasing power of each respective country. As you can see, we take many different factors into consideration. Please also bear in mind that the type of aircraft, the seating on board as well as the cabin equipment are all not part of the actual contract of carriage.

We want to provide our Senator members with a superior travel experience from the time they check in until they reach their destination, and it is with great regret that we learn your experience has proven otherwise.

Please rest assured that we do our utmost to provide priority services for our esteemed passengers where possible and we hope that this response will reaffirm our commitment to customer service in your mind and that you will remain a valued patron of our services.

We truly appreciate your loyalty to Lufthansa and thank you for choosing Lufthansa to fulfill your travel needs. It is our pleasure to be of service to you. Again, we apologise for any earlier misunderstanding.

Yours sincerely,

and my reply...

Dear Ms Tyrer,

again, let me suggest you make this known to your superiors: this reply is wholly inadequate and LH should urgently reconsider the argument and the reasoning. I am a customer and feel no need to suffer a deteriorated product to finance LH`s expansion plans. If tihis is the standard reply, I predict LH will find it very difficult to even fill an A 321.

On a personal note: I also find it very amusing that you inform me about the content of the contract of carriage, as I am not only a lawyer practising in the field of travel and tourism, but even teach this matter at university. Thanks for the info...

Best regards

They have clearly made the decision not to care about the long haul business traveler from TLV so you may as well fly other carriers. The crazy thing is that I don't understand how it is supposedly economical for LY to fly 747/777s to CDG and LHR when BA and AF don't seem to feel the same way. There are so many better options (hell, even flying UA to the west coast is better now from TLV) that it just isn't worth fighting them about. Especially when Tuesday night's a321 was half empty and I still paid $1050 in Y for a ticket to FRA.

El Al is now having deals to Germany.
For example upgrading from economy Y/S/M for only 1 point...

It sounds like they made a bit of money off you then!

It sounds like they made a bit of money off you then!

?

Now, let´s see what comes up next...I can't wait! :D

After having flown the route numerous times, I complained (along with every other pax on board) to LH. I got a reply and attach this for your enjoyment. LH Customer Service really does not get it...


You can´t make this stuff up. Too funny.:D

I fully appreciate that canned responses are required to some extent, but the fact that LH manages to completely screw up addressing a SEN´s valid complaint who paid 2500€ for a 4h flight in a NEK seat not once, but twice (the third response is at least on topic, though not necessarily appropiate) actually is quite sad.

El Al is now having deals to Germany.
For example upgrading from economy Y/S/M for only 1 point...

Is that upgrade promo valid ex-Israel only or also ex-FRA?

Is that upgrade promo valid ex-Israel only or also ex-FRA?

All flights. I used it on MUC-TLV

I am right now on the "live-and-learn" path...
But what I'm saying is that the website showed C (which is this fake-biz seats) and now "corrected" to show single-cabin flight, but that's AFTER I booked.
That's all...venting out...hoping for an advice...no response from UA so far.

Well...I gotta hand it to UA, they really came through.
They let me / helped me change the itinerary, not going TLV-FRA now. They actually put me on a flight TLV-EWR in C on a reward although there was no C reward availability on that flight, just to make me happy and avoid the TLV-FRA fake C LH seats, and on top of this they didn't charge me change fee.
Hat off.
:-)

Swiss called (as in a human being picked up the phone to dial my number) to tell me that they had to change the equipment for my upcoming muc-zrh-tlv. She asked whether I would want to change to the direct flight on LH from muc. I laughed out loud and told her that I rather sit in LXs short haul business than LHs since the seat is still more comfortable and the service and food is better than with LH. I also told her that I really am pleasantly surprised about this call. In the past I would have been lucky to receive an SMS.