United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - Why United makes $$$ from Kettles

I had an interesting conversation with my sister this past week, and I would consider her a kettle.

Anyway, she told me when she booked on united.com and there is no regular economy seats left, she had no choice but to book E+ at an additional cost. She feared that if she did not reserve seats in advance, her family might not get a seat on the flight. :confused::confused::confused::mad::mad::mad:

I can understand now why ancillary revenue on United ain't chump change. And that is probably why UA prefers Kettles vs Over-entitled passengers.
:rolleyes:

Btw, she is based in DFW. But from the short conversation we had on this subject, she ain't too happy with any US carriers.

For most "kettles" that I know, this would be a one time event. From then after, United would not be considered as they got "burned" by having to spend more money. This is especially true as I doubt "kettles" would check seat maps prior to making a purchase decision, so the money for reserved seats would have been a surprise.

This will have the same long term effect for kettles that United is causing for elites. Elite benefits have been so diluted with credit card holders and policy changes that they are no longer valuable. So elites are ticked standing in lines flooded with credit card holders, and credit card holder and one-time purchasers are ticked because what they spent money on no longer has value.

Short, one-time profit bumps that kill the value proposition for everyone in the future.

Have to admit that this applies to me, have enjoyed the benefit of E+ at booking as Exec or whatever it was called, but no longer. Would consider AA if I thought it would work for me. Probably slightly less service out of ORD, but not too much.

I get the short term logic, and even understand making the hurdle higher but it just doesn't fit my profile.

Wish I came here more often, I would have done the status match deal over there, but guess it only applies to Gold's and 1K's now.

I had two main goals with flights:

E+ (gone)
Accrue enough miles for biz class to Europe. Not sure best vehicle for this.

I would think this says more about your sister than it does United.

As long as an airline makes it clear that you will get a seat, just not one reserved in advance, then I would think the consumer has all the information to make an open choice.

For most "kettles" that I know, this would be a one time event. From then after, United would not be considered as they got "burned" by having to spend more money. This is especially true as I doubt "kettles" would check seat maps prior to making a purchase decision, so the money for reserved seats would have been a surprise.

This will have the same long term effect for kettles that United is causing for elites. Elite benefits have been so diluted with credit card holders and policy changes that they are no longer valuable. So elites are ticked standing in lines flooded with credit card holders, and credit card holder and one-time purchasers are ticked because what they spent money on no longer has value.

Short, one-time profit bumps that kill the value proposition for everyone in the future.

I don't understand how the person in the OP "got burned". There weren't any E- seats left for selection and she wanted to make sure she had a seat. Unless UA is holding back an inordinate number of E- seats, this doesn't seem any different than how it's done on any other airline with mutliple grades of Y seating. Maybe I'm missing something?

I don't understand how the person in the OP "got burned". There weren't any E- seats left for selection and she wanted to make sure she had a seat. Unless UA is holding back an inordinate number of E- seats, this doesn't seem any different than how it's done on any other airline with mutliple grades of Y seating. Maybe I'm missing something?

It's been noted that not having a seat pre-assigned puts you higher on the list for IDBs.

Wouldn't be surprised if this happened a lot, especially on leisure-heavy routes that fill early with people looking for deals. Last month on a return flight MCO-CLE, there were no free seats available for selection for weeks and weeks in advance of the flight, and E+ was nearly full then too, except the exit rows. 23 hours and 50 minutes before departure, after I (a Silver) had checked in at 23:59 before departure, I got the upgrade email. Yep, almost 24 hours in advance as a Silver. GA told me that another Silver got an upgrade with a companion even! And we went out with an empty seat in First to boot. Who was occupying almost all of that nearly-full E+ section weeks in advance? Yep, non-status people, probably not even MP members, one-time travelers to Disney probably, who wanted to be sure to get a seat or to get seats together for the family. (Thus the exit row emptiness--no kids there.)

So in 10 minutes, I went from the aisle E- seat I managed to snag before nearly all of coach filled up weeks before departure, to the aisle reclining exit row, to First. At least I never paid for E+....I was figuring that the exit would be available at check-in, and I didn't want to pay for E+ in advance and then get upgraded and lose what I paid for E+. Not an issue for non-status members (or nonmembers), who went ahead and paid evidently.

It's been noted that not having a seat pre-assigned puts you higher on the list for IDBs.

Sure, I get that. But that's not any different on UA than any other domestic carrier, is it? The OP's sister chose to protect against the IDB by buying up to E+.

The "kettles" usually go for what the cheapest. Even if they feel they got burned they will come back if the price is right. Heck my first ever flight on US Airways i got burned but yet I flew with them again many times even making silver elite because the schedule and price were the best

Sure, I get that. But that's not any different on UA than any other domestic carrier, is it? The OP's sister chose to protect against the IDB by buying up to E+.

Well, not many other airlines have as much E+ revenue......but your point is well-founded. It's not just a UA thing.

I don't understand how the person in the OP "got burned". There weren't any E- seats left for selection and she wanted to make sure she had a seat. Unless UA is holding back an inordinate number of E- seats, this doesn't seem any different than how it's done on any other airline with mutliple grades of Y seating. Maybe I'm missing something?

I think we will start to see airlines holding back large amounts of inventory to do exactly what happened to the family member. I don't think this is unusual, and I could see a class action in the future around this practice. While it can be argued that E+ is a separate product, hiding E- seats to encourage a traveler to buy E+ to confirm a seat is disingenuous IMO. W/R/T US and AA, I have seen a lot of normal seats in the back of the plane marked as "special" when in fact they are not. I believe there was an article about it somewhere, it gave US as an example.

It's been noted that not having a seat pre-assigned puts you higher on the list for IDBs.

Indeed, another reason why this practice walks a fine line.

I think we will start to see airlines holding back large amounts of inventory to do exactly what happened to the family member. I don't think this is unusual, and I could see a class action in the future around this practice. While it can be argued that E+ is a separate product, hiding E- seats to encourage a traveler to buy E+ to confirm a seat is disingenuous IMO. W/R/T US and AA, I have seen a lot of normal seats in the back of the plane marked as "special" when in fact they are not. I believe there was an article about it somewhere, it gave US as an example.



Indeed, another reason why this practice walks a fine line.

May be, but is there any evidence that they are witholding E-now? Seems like a high risk, low reward strategy to me (e.g. higher price for E+ will drive customers to other carriers an they'll end up with more seats than butts).

Have to admit that this applies to me, have enjoyed the benefit of E+ at booking as Exec or whatever it was called, but no longer. Would consider AA if I thought it would work for me. Probably slightly less service out of ORD, but not too much.

I get the short term logic, and even understand making the hurdle higher but it just doesn't fit my profile.

Wish I came here more often, I would have done the status match deal over there, but guess it only applies to Gold's and 1K's now.

I had two main goals with flights:

E+ (gone)
Accrue enough miles for biz class to Europe. Not sure best vehicle for this.

I believe you really are still better off with UA. The fact that award tickets on *A partners carry far fewer fees than dealing with OW partners when going through AA means that it's almost always a better deal. Furthermore, there are fare more nonstops from ORD to Europe on *A than OW.

If we go beyond the obvious, with SkyTeam you can only nonstop to CDG (AF) or AMS (KL) and while the food may be better than on AA/UA, the attitudes of the surly FAs is the same At least with *A you can get to IST (TK) and get a really good experience. I have not flown LX and LH for a while but they both used to be pretty good. Connecting in Europe is a pretty miserable experience all around but I guess AMS is the least painful of the obvious choices (LHR, CDG, IST, FRA, MUC) so you might consider that.

If you decide to redeem miles for Y, UA has AA beat in terms of both availability and cost in miles.

That being said, I really hope AA doesn't give up on ORD because it'll mean fewer nonstops and less competition which is bad for all of us in Chicago.

I don't understand how the person in the OP "got burned". There weren't any E- seats left for selection and she wanted to make sure she had a seat. Unless UA is holding back an inordinate number of E- seats, this doesn't seem any different than how it's done on any other airline with mutliple grades of Y seating. Maybe I'm missing something?

A kettle would look at the all in price of the ticket, make the purchase, then chose seats. As they were not able to secure seats together as a family without an up-charge, there is an unexpected outlay of cash that would leave a bad impression. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I think it would be perceived.

Maybe the next trip they would consider UA again but check for open no-charge seats before purchase....but they may also say to hell with UA and look to Southwest to avoid all the fees.

I can only imagine the kettle response when their seats are re-assigned by UA a day before the flight...and they learn that seat assignments are not guaranteed and are a "courtesy". :eek:

Well, not many other airlines have as much E+ revenue......but your point is well-founded. It's not just a UA thing.

Kettles use Kayak and could care less what airline they are flying. UA tickets are usually higher priced so they may not be getting all the kettles they could or should.

Kettles use Kayak and could care less what airline they are flying. UA tickets are usually higher priced so they may not be getting all the kettles they could or should.

Relative pricing of the airlines is geographically variable. Out of ABQ, UA is usually the lowest price on most routes. It's an airport with substantial traffic (not ORD, but not RAP either), but WN is by far the dominant carrier. So UA has decent frequency but has to keep prices low to compete with WN.

Obviously, if you're flying out of IAH or something, it's a totally different price landscape. But UA is the cheapest carrier out of some airports.

When I book tickets (and I never do well in advance) then I frequently notice that E- is completely full while the flight has 30-50+ seat availability in E+, e.g. on a 777, and the cheapest booking classes are available. So that's not unusual. They are not blocking seats in E-.

Doesn't not getting a seat in E- nearly guarantee a free op-up into E+? Unless a lot of other E- passengers pay up into E+ on day of departure. The downside is that you are also near the top of list for IDB.

p.s. I think the "kettle" might be nervous because he sees a full seatmap since all E+ seats show as being occupied when he books the ticket.

p.s. I think the "kettle" might be nervous because he sees a full seatmap since all E+ seats show as being occupied when he books the ticket.
Don't they see the E+ seats with the "available for $42" popup?

Don't they see the E+ seats with the "available for $42" popup?

I think the issue is some folks may not realize you don't have to pick a seat at all when you buy your ticket.

This has happened to me before - usually, it is because E- (being the cheapest option) is genuinely filled. So your options are to choose an E+ seat and pay for it, or not choose a seat at all. If you do the latter, chances are you will get an E+ seat anyway at check in (if there's no E- open, E- customers get E+ seats).

All that said - while I mainly travel for leisure, I'm a pretty experienced traveler and fly UA quite a bit so I know how it works.

Your average "kettle" (such a derogatory term! :p) probably doesn't really realize they don't have to choose a seat, so they pick E+ and pay.

I don't understand how the person in the OP "got burned". There weren't any E- seats left for selection and she wanted to make sure she had a seat. Unless UA is holding back an inordinate number of E- seats, this doesn't seem any different than how it's done on any other airline with mutliple grades of Y seating. Maybe I'm missing something?

It is a bait and switch, illegal, and if the FTC or dot had any gonads, the practice would be prosecuted.

UA advertises that a kettle or 2p can select economy seats at time of booking for no extra charge, but if e- is fully assigned, the kettle/2p is out of luck unless he wants to accept the switch to a higher total fare.

Connecting in Europe is a pretty miserable experience all around (...)

As someone who does connect in Europe frequently (mostly ZRH, MUC, FRA, but sometimes AMS), and just came back from Europe connecting through EWR - there is nothing in Europe that remotely approaches an international connection in EWR as far as miserable experiences are concerned.

Now if you add LHR in the bag, you may get closer to the EWR experience...

.... UA advertises that a kettle or 2p can select economy seats at time of booking for no extra charge, ....I guess I have never noticed a promise to have an assigned seat at booking --- can you point to a reference?

In my family, it gave you a different learning experience than what United intended. In our trip last year, my parent book the ticket earlier and had separate seat in the back. By the time me and my brothers had to chose the seat, it's all filled up except the E+. We decided to just wait and were assigned a better seat in a row during boarding. Thus, now my family learned to not reserve the seat in advance if we didn't get the seat we want :p

For most "kettles" that I know, this would be a one time event. From then after, United would not be considered as they got "burned" by having to spend more money. This is especially true as I doubt "kettles" would check seat maps prior to making a purchase decision, so the money for reserved seats would have been a surprise.

This will have the same long term effect for kettles that United is causing for elites. Elite benefits have been so diluted with credit card holders and policy changes that they are no longer valuable. So elites are ticked standing in lines flooded with credit card holders, and credit card holder and one-time purchasers are ticked because what they spent money on no longer has value.

Short, one-time profit bumps that kill the value proposition for everyone in the future.

Beautifully stated - and interesting enough, it's actually happening now...in a year, this will be the case IMO.

It is a bait and switch, illegal, and if the FTC or dot had any gonads, the practice would be prosecuted.

UA advertises that a kettle or 2p can select economy seats at time of booking for no extra charge, but if e- is fully assigned, the kettle/2p is out of luck unless he wants to accept the switch to a higher total fare.

What would you have them do? Not offer E+?

Unless they're witholding E- inventory intentionally (which I have no reason to think), I still can't see the problem.

What would you have them do? Not offer E+?

Unless they're witholding E- inventory intentionally (which I have no reason to think), I still can't see the problem.

I see a jaded FTer making up "bait and switch" instead of actually confirming as such versus regulations.

I only occasionally fly UA but am hardly a "kettle" with 100K+ BIS miles/year, however UA's method of displaying available seats at the time of purchase is confusing and starting to pi$$ me off!

I am escorting my elderly parents to visit relatives (BTR-IAH-TUS return all on RJ145s) and despite the fact that they have flown 100's of flights in their lifetime, at their age traveling is highly anxiety-provoking. Having a "FF" like me sitting with them is intended to alleviate some of this.

Problem is, on some legs, the only seats 3-across selectable at the time of ticketing are exit row, which they don't qualify for. But at the same time there is row after row of E+ "reserved seats" open but not selectable prior to purchase.

I am happy to pay extra for E+ seats that I can lock in now. Is that possible? I recall the option doesn't come up until AFTER you have committed to a purchase but I could be wrong.

Lastly, I know I can just take my chances but I don't intend on playing seating roulette at T-24, there are other ways to get to TUS. Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

It's been noted that not having a seat pre-assigned puts you higher on the list for IDBs.

Which is why I, for one, am always tempted not to request a seat assignment. But fears of getting stuck in the middle always outweigh the hopes of beign IDB.

As an aside, I never saw an IDB situation on CO, only on pmUA and the new UA. Either CO preferred to buy everyone off or CO flyers were more prone to be vols.

What would you have them do? Not offer E+?

Unless they're witholding E- inventory intentionally (which I have no reason to think), I still can't see the problem.

All airlines, including UA, withhold a small portion of seats from advanced seat assignment -- some are released for assignment a day or two before the flight while some are released for assignment only at the airport. This gives the gate a little flexibility in dealing with and re-arranging families and demanding travellers.

Part of me misses the old days when seat assignment was done only at the gate when the gate agent pulled a seat sticker off a sheet and affixed it to one's boarding card.

I am happy to pay extra for E+ seats that I can lock in now. Is that possible? I recall the option doesn't come up until AFTER you have committed to a purchase but I could be wrong.

Lastly, I know I can just take my chances but I don't intend on playing seating roulette at T-24, there are other ways to get to TUS. Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Hmm, yeah, kind of a problem with no status on the 145s.

Those seats aren't Economy Plus, which is why you cannot purchase them. They are reserved for elites, but even Silvers don't pay for them.

You might consider flying American through DFW. You can get a 757 into TUL from DFW, plus you can select seats right away.

although not mainline, 2 out of the 4 flights today on IAH-TUS are flown by CRJ700, which is slightly better than ERJ145s

When I was still a kettle:

Before my frequent flying days, I remember spending ~$800 for a coach ticket just to earn UA miles (of course, I didn't pay for it myself). They gave me a middle seat in E+ and I was pretty happy.

I ventured into the FC bathroom, and managed to wet my face and the entire floor. The FC agent thought I peed all over the bathroom, so she shut the lavs for the flight duration. Then she pulled me over to scold me (I looked like a college student back then.)

Needless to say, I switched my next 400k flying miles to AA.

When I was still a kettle:

Before my frequent flying days, I remember spending ~$800 for a coach ticket just to earn UA miles (of course, I didn't pay for it myself). They gave me a middle seat in E+ and I was pretty happy.

I ventured into the FC bathroom, and managed to wet my face and the entire floor. The FC agent thought I peed all over the bathroom, so she shut the lavs for the flight duration. Then she pulled me over to scold me (I looked like a college student back then.)

Needless to say, I switched my next 400k flying miles to AA.

I just died laughing...

It's been noted that not having a seat pre-assigned puts you higher on the list for IDBs.

Perhaps but the ultimate decider is when you check in. If you check in late, you run a greater list of getting IDB. Honestly it's hard for me to imagine any airline needing to IDB people. There are way too many people willing to volunteer for the voucher in most cases.

I think it's just paranoia on some people's part. I hear it a lot and I always tell them it's not the case. Some listen, but many don't. Just makes me SMH.