Russia - United's IAD-DME flight may end.

I'm not sure if this is appropriate but my travel coordinator just told me that the IAD-DME flights on United got pulled from the schedule in 2013. :mad:

Allegedly the flight is supposed to come back in April 2013, but it looks like its gone from the GDS. It goes seasonal at the end of August 2012

Personally, I think United should fire their sales staff, and rethink their marketing and sales strategy. If they can't make a route to a country with 7% annual growth rate, (for the last 10 years or so), 4% employment rate work, then something is SERIOUSLY wrong. The people that are supposed to make the route work are not doing their job.

Link (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileageplus-consolidated/1352351-iad-dme-flights-canceled-2.html#post18944124) from the United forum -

I'm on this route every 2-3 months. If you care, please voice your displeasure to United Airlines management, by letter or e-mail.

I know loads are not a predictor of profitability, but good GOD every time I am on this flight, it's packed. I can't believe this isn't making money.

Exactly. What is missing is a feed....they should code share with Transaero...
Business and first is absolutely packed. In fact, I've been downgraded on this flight before

Exactly. What is missing is a feed....they should code share with Transaero...
Business and first is absolutely packed. In fact, I've been downgraded on this flight before

Very interesting. Delta is the other way around. The back is full but BE is mid full at best. Lots of buddy pass riders though fill out the front. If UA pulls theirs then there will be only one true US player in that market. UN and SU are covering the coasts but AA is out, UA is thnking about it, and DL is daily from 2 cities to 1 city now.

This should be a thriving market one would think...

Definitely surprised by this. Thanks for the info.

Looking at a possible return trip in November. Long connections in Zurich, Frankfurt, Munich. Sometimes 3 flights. :mad:

Please voice your displeasure by writing to the man himself
jeff.smisek@united.com

I may have to switch business to SkyPesos next year.:td:

Now if only Transaero would join Star Alliance...that would be answer to my problems.

Loved this route but the terminal, B ?, may be one of the world's worst. Shame Utd is downgrading this service, never had an issue and the DME to IAD leg was always light, had a few lucky trips in coach with an entire row to myself.

I was only on this flight once and on the return the flight got cancelled. It was absolute chaos. 300 passenger and ONE person trained to reroute the passengers. I was really surprised how poor United handled the situation...not surprised that UA is canceling the route considering how little they put in to getting the station even prepared!

I was on this flight every 2-3 months or so. Most of the time in Business Class, though a few times (early on) in Economy as well. Economy in the winter tended to be empty, but the seats were full up front. I had no problems, except getting downgraded C -> Y due to some Russian pax buying full fare at the counter at DME.

The staff manning United rotates, depending on the season. I got to know them quite well.

Anyway, for those seeking Star options to go to Russia, this now SUCKS BIG TIME. It appears that Skyteam has Star beat in this market.

For most people, its 2-3 connections now to get to DME from the US, with awful connecting times.

This flight better come back in 2013, or else United totally sucks now :td:. I can't believe the sales people at United could not make this flight work. To a high growth market, none the less.

BA flies a 4 cabin, 747 on the LHR-DME route, FCOL!

Sidetopic : I wonder what will happen to United's ticket counter at DME, which is, in my opinion prized real estate? Its the most central location, right in the middle of the Intl side of DME. In fact, UA crew use it as a meeting point, regularly. I see them lingering there before and after the flight.

I talked to my dad tonight & he told me that he had to fly to Moscow for work this weekend. The sorrow in his voice was quite noticeable as he told me that he had to fly Lufthansa via Frankfurt. One of his only Star Alliance options left. He also said that he may consider the Delta flight from JFK-SVO next time. Just to try it out.

Just booked a ticket myself. There are some good fares - JFK-DME is under $600. Booked LH via FRA on A380. Not a bad schedule - gets to DME at 12:35pm... Decided to check fares - turns out Expedia booked LH K-class - as I understand it does not get me any miles with United... Rebooked for Brussels Airlines - no A380, get to Moscow later, but get the miles to get Gold by the end of the year.

What I don't understand - are most people do not care about miles? I booked with an agent at Expedia - there was no mention of classes, miles, etc. If I would not accidentally check the itinerary - I would end up with 0 miles after this trip...

IAD-DME is still not in the schedule for next year.

I hope they make some decisions about the schedule and load the flights into the GDS soon.

I sent a message to somebody I know in UA who was involved in their Moscow operations asking the status of this route.

The reply:

At the moment we do not have any plans to come back next summer.
I hope we will back again one day with daily service to the US.


:(
This sucks because I decided to earn my star-gold status in UA exactly due to this route.

Lets discuss why this route didn't work. I can think of a few reasons.

1) United is not luxurious enough, for the Russians. I mean really, SQ fills up and ROUTINELY oversells their flight to DME-IAH in Business. When I was at DME a few days ago there was no window seat to be had in Business class. In fact, the flight was oversold. BA flies a 747 from LHR to DME and F is routinely full. United can't fill up and run a 767 from dulles and make buck like eveyone else?

2) No Russian language support . Go to the United website, the only available language is English. What a way to do business in Russia!

3) No local feed . Not everyone goes to Moscow. It would help if United codeshared with Transaero. I think this could have been a win win relationship, since UN flies to LAX

4) No cargo business . With the exception of NASA cargo (which leaves from IAH anyway, the plane was mostly luggage).

5) No understanding of the local market . Refer back to point #1, #2, and I think marketing is almost no existant. Actually anyone that knows the local market knows that old school travel agents (since extinct in the US) do very well in Russia and that's how a lot of travel is purchased. I'm guessing United is offering 0% commissions....

Lame. Lame. So now I'm stuck with a dicey 40 minute connection in Geneva or overnight in Frankfurt. Who ever does marketing in Europe for United should be given a D- in his/her job rating.

The only positive : The united ticket counter, located right in the center of the international side of DME airport

AA used to fly ORD-DME on a 777 when it started then dropped down to a 767 before dropping the flight entirely.

When the flight began, the planes were mostly full then numbers kept dropping, especially after the 2008 financial crisis, which barely affected Russia, by the way.

I spoke at length to an AA FA and he told me that they had so many issues at DME with high landing fees, one of the highest in the world according to him, and with catering. DME is a privately held airport and the Russian government doesn't even know what's going on there. Seriously.

I'm actually surprised United had hung on for as long as they have, regardless of load. It's an expensive airport with a host of strange rules and regulations. And without any Russian carriers in Star Alliance, the feeder flights would be an issue as well. And DC isn't really a tourist destination for Russians the way NYC or Miami are. Singapore is able to fill that Houston flight because of oil money.

All the EU carriers flocked over to DME as it was undergoing its massive renovation and grew into a decent airport. SVO was a pit prior to the opening of the new terminals D&E. F, the former SVO-2, is still horrible. But, SVO may lure back some of the EU carriers, if they have gate space, that is. Hard to say.

It really is a shame that there are so few non-stop options from Moscow to the US and that another one is apparently biting the dust.

BA flies a 747 from LHR to DME and F is routinely full.

This is a new service from just this March. BA moved Moscow from a European city to an International city and upgraded the metal as a result.

Before, there was no F class on any of their flights; only the crappy Club Europe 'Business' seats which are nothing more than economy with the middle seat blocked. That was the main reason I never bothered to book a business class ticket when flying to the US. I just used my miles to upgrade on AA across the pond.

Aeroflot, which offers a real business class on all its planes, was eating BA's lunch for the high segment flyers doing MOW-LHR and not connecting onward. The front of the plane was always mostly empty on all my flights.

I get to fly on a 767 DME-LHR in November and on the 747 for the return in business. Looking forward to it. Just hoping all my AA flights run on time without any drama...

they had so many issues at DME with high landing fees, one of the highest in the world according to him
What did they expect, Ryanair-style pricing? The yields (at least for medium-haul flights) are also among the highest in the world.

My sources tell me, via my travel coordinator that the flight is not officially "cancelled' but rather suspended until a yet to be known date in the spring / summer. Allegedly. Airiineroute lists the route as "seasonal suspension"

The flight number UA 964 / 965 has not been repurposed for another flight, and UA's ticket counter at DME (right in the middle of the international terminal) is still there. As of two weeks ago.

So I remain hopeful. I think UA is still trying to figure out what to do, frankly, this would be an ideal 787 route, given the economics. Full in the front, half empty in the back. Light load in the back in the winter. This route might do better ex-EWR maybe. Too bad SQ rules the show ex IAH

Its not so easy to give this route up, UA would have to jump hoops to get it back. Russia is not part of open skies, and as others have said, has a vibrant healthy economy, (albeit very dependent on commodity exports and minerals) , easier visa rules now and WTO.

I'm connecting next month in BRU and FRA. If there's a misconnect, I will have to overnight . Not fun :mad:

Too bad skypesos is such a worthless program, though I may be convinced to switch if this continues.

Agree, it looks like the ideal route for a 787. I took this flight 3-4 times and it was full in the back (and even in the front) but it was summer. And there should be enough government traffic in the winter. So let's try to be optimistic. But I wish they would decide something soon, I'm starting to plan my summer vacation for my family and these flights would be my first choice.

Flight gone, per airline routes. :td:

What did they expect, Ryanair-style pricing? The yields (at least for medium-haul flights) are also among the highest in the world.

I don't understand this comment at all. The prices on the AA ORD-DME flights were in the $750-$1,250 range, hardly RyanAir prices. And is a 9 hour flight considered medium-haul?

I really don't understand. What am I missing?

Sadness.

United 964/965 has now been reassigned.

The flight numbers that were once on IAD-DME-IAD now serve SFO-YVR :td:

It's time for me to retire.

a friend of mine who works in Delta Russia told me that they believe there is almost no chance that United will restart the route within the next 3-5 years.

a friend of mine who works in Delta Russia told me that they believe there is almost no chance that United will restart the route within the next 3-5 years.

Did that friend say anything about DL waking up ATL to SVO? I ask every time I fly though and the counter folk just shrug and say "not our decision."

Gah!!! Somehow I missed this thread until now.

This is really terrible news. This means unless I'm mistaken Delta is the only non-Russian carrier that flies US->Russia direct.

This seems like a boneheaded move and like others I have flown this route several times and it seemed to be doing good business, once I even got bumped up from a full-fare ticket to J with no status because economy was overbooked.

Considering just this past Friday the House passed a resolution to grant Permanent Normal Trade Relation status to Russia this seems like a horrible time to bet against increasing US<->Russia commerce. Not to mention I can't help but think there is a pretty large gov't presence on this flight, what with Russia having one of the largest US consular presences in the world.

Very dumb decision IMHO, although I'm not privy to the economics of it.

Moscow seems to be pretty well served by *A partners. I've flown to DME on LH, LX and SQ. I wanted to try the UA flight when it existed, but a 55 minute connection at IAD seemed too risky.

I think DME is a dump, though. Would prefer if UA were to reinstate this flight to make it to VKO instead.

Did that friend say anything about DL waking up ATL to SVO? I ask every time I fly though and the counter folk just shrug and say "not our decision."

sorry I didnt reply earlier. he said they are lobbying to restore it for next summer but it is far from certain.

I think DME is a dump, though. Would prefer if UA were to reinstate this flight to make it to VKO instead.

Your comment that DME is a 'dump' makes me wonder if you have ever actually flown to Russia. Ever.

DME is Russia's ONLY major airport that is all new from the ground up. There isn't a shred of the Soviet Union left there. It has some of the easiest to access check-in counters I've ever encountered. I've flown both international and domestic from there and customs, passport control and security for the international side are fairly fast. On the domestic side, there are a large number of security lanes. For both sides, I've never taken longer than 20 minutes to get through security.

VKO, which does have a new terminal, still has it's old Soviet heritage front and center and that part is a pit, and that's being polite.

SVO finally has the new Terminal D for international flights. Still, many international flights have to go through Terminal F, the old SVO 2, which is awful. And the domestic side of SVO is still awful as only a handful of flights use the newer terminal.

Also, DME was the first Moscow airport to have the Aeroexpress service.

So, I don't know what airport you went through but to call DME a dump is just absurd. It's bright, clean, organized, has ample food and shopping past security on both the international and domestic side. My only complaint is the constant construction, but that is done to continue to improve the experience for the traveler, something the other major Russian airports should undertake as well.

(righteous indignation)


Been to Moscow (and DME) 4 times this fall, so yes, been to Russia quite a bit lately. Let me see: Gate waiting areas are generally tight. If you aren't riding business or first class, security lines can be quite long. Getting to car rides are a pain with the construction, and, BTW, Aeroexpress is only hourly vs. every half hour to SVO.

Anything else?

Been to Moscow (and DME) 4 times this fall, so yes, been to Russia quite a bit lately. Let me see: Gate waiting areas are generally tight. If you aren't riding business or first class, security lines can be quite long. Getting to car rides are a pain with the construction, and, BTW, Aeroexpress is only hourly vs. every half hour to SVO.

Anything else?

Again, just wrong.

Aeroexpress to DME has always been every 30 minutes, same for SVO once they finally got that service up and running.

VKO, on the other hand, is every hour.

Try again.

http://www.aeroexpress.ru/en/domodedovo.html

http://www.aeroexpress.ru/en/sheremetyevo.html

http://www.aeroexpress.ru/en/vnukovo.html

On my last trip in October, the trains were only leaving once and an hour.

Whatever. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and my experiences clearly differ from yours. Feel free to be outraged at mine, but I still don't like DME, regardless of what you say.

bigboy
Generally, trains run every 30 minutes, though there are 'holes' in the timetable (https://aeroexpress.ru/en/domodedovo.html).

bigboy
Generally, trains run every 30 minutes, though there are 'holes' in the timetable (https://aeroexpress.ru/en/domodedovo.html).

Yes, there is a one whole gap from the 12.00 train to the 13.00 train. What a huge hole. Oh no! However will I manage to schedule my trip to the airport!

I realize that what you don't know about DME far exceeds what you do know, but, like you said, it's your opinion.

But, facts are facts, whether you like them or not and the fact is, DME is far from being the dump you imagine it to be.

It's as if your mother-in-law runs DME or something like that. I've never seen such a hilariously vigorous defense of a building with lots of concrete around it in a long time.

U mad bro?

BTW, no other snide, arrogant and ad hominem comments on my other points? Just one on Aeroexpress?

The old DME was demolished, the new DME is a private venture. Its Russia's largest international airport, with no traces of soviet past. The present building is probably 10 years old?

I will say though DME has a weird layout, (with hidden passageways [ I wonder why :rolleyes: , and back doors :rolleyes: )

For all intents and purposes SVO is a Skyteam airport stronghold of Aeroflot and legacies. Its closer to town, but if you are married to anyone else besides skyteam, you'll be using DME.

By the way, the United sign from DME is gone, replaced by TAP Portugal.

Just to tie this off - landed at VKO yesterday on a LH flight from FRA. Based on the photographs from the VKO thread, it looks like we landed at the new terminal. I tried taking pictures but it was dark and my old iPhone 4 couldn't handle it very well. Unfortunately, given the LH schedules, I will have to leave from DME so I won't be able to comment on the departing experience.

This terminal is definitely nicer than DME and the parking for car services and taxis doesn't require walking long distances and crossing barriers to an uncovered parking lot. Very helpful given that it was bone-chilling cold when we landed.

Based on this (sample size = 1) experience, if UA were to restart MOW service, I think VKO would indeed be a good option.

DME is Russia's premier international airport. SVO is a skyteam / aeroflot "dog and pony show" for the most part, but they are at a detriment in my honest opinion for keeping everyone else out. Yeah, its closer to town, but it doesn't have the same volume/connection options.

Everyone flies into DME, including the Emirates A380, and SQ, to name a few.

I think it depends on what you need the airport for. If Moscow is O&D for you (as it is for me - a destination), then VKO = DME = SVO with schedule being the tiebreaker.

That's why I arrived at VKO (which was 2 hours earlier than if I landed at DME), and why I'm leaving via DME, because the VKO schedule for LH didn't work for me.

Since we started talking about schedules... Are there any Start Alliance flights with connections from US that get to MOW in the morning?

United used to arrive around 11AM. I would be at my hotel for a short zzz by 1PM. The return would leave at 12:30PM-1PM and arrive at Dulles around 4PM.
United 964/965.

SQ arrives at around 2PM, which is an awful ( not terrible arrival time)

Awful for the following reasons
- QR, EY, and EK arrive within 30-60 minutes of this time
- The baggage carrousel is total chaos
- Bags can take forever to show up (even if you bag says First/Business)


2PM means that by car you'll be in Moscow Centro at 4PM (with a good driver that knows side roads and avoids the MKAD)


In short, DUE TO THE LOSS OF UA 964/965, any flight from the US arrives late in the afternoon now. ( either via Zurich, Geneva or FRA), adding hours ( and a total loss of a day)

United used to arrive around 11AM. I would be at my hotel for a short zzz by 1PM. The return would leave at 12:30PM-1PM and arrive at Dulles around 4PM.
Appreciate your information. I was making sure I was not missing any options.

Sorry to bring up this old(er) thread...

Wondering if there are any better ways to get to Moscow on *A that I am missing - all I see are connections through GVA or BRU (had hell of a time to get my UA miles from SN last time)...

Trying to get to Moscow as early as possible, to may be have a meeting in the afternoon. Otherwise the whole day is killed.

Sorry to bring up this old(er) thread...

Wondering if there are any better ways to get to Moscow on *A that I am missing - all I see are connections through GVA or BRU (had hell of a time to get my UA miles from SN last time)...

Trying to get to Moscow as early as possible, to may be have a meeting in the afternoon. Otherwise the whole day is killed.

You might want to consider VKO. TK and LH fly there. I heard a rumor that SQ might move to VKO (in the same fashion that UN moved much of its long haul flying to VKO) due to higher landing fees / better facilities at VKO, which just got built.

The soonest possible arrival time I know of is 230PM, connection from GVA. Its a tight connection, but given that Geneva is a small airport, doable. Available on select days.

I was checking schedules lately and saw LH flights from MUC and FRA arriving in the 12:00 - 12:30 window... Might try those. Since I am paying for tickets myself, I am torn between convenience/ service (SQ through IAH) and price.

On top of that, I need at least 1 connection here, in the US...

If you see something new - please post it here...