Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Do they have to touch my bra every time?

You'd think with all the bra wearing women screened every day, the TSA would be able to recognize a bra strap/back by now. Last week in ATL and SMF I was touched in the middle of my back. In SMF there was no warning - as I was walking away the woman touched my back so hard she pushed me forward. Obviously there's no learning curve, and they don't learn by experience. The rule book probably bans common sense. :mad:

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I could clearly see a yellow box on the screen the secont time, and it looked like the spot was my shoulder. Since I was wearing a thin sleeveless, scoop neck top, it should have been pretty obvious I wasn't concealing anything. Nothing was said either time to indicate a pat down.

Not sure what happened to my post above. Weird.

Anyway, we all know TSA is staffed by epic idiots. The worst part is that agent probably thought that checking your bra strap was stopping terrorism.

You'd think with all the bra wearing women screened every day, the TSA would be able to recognize a bra strap/back by now. Last week in ATL and SMF I was touched in the middle of my back. In SMF there was no warning - as I was walking away the woman touched my back so hard she pushed me forward. Obviously there's no learning curve, and they don't learn by experience. The rule book probably bans common sense. :mad:

Seems that this touching w/out warning is becoming more commonplace. Was this related to passing through ATR technology? Have all of those endless false positives* become a mind-numbing routine matter no longer worthy of following proper procedure for? How is this "going through the motions" making us any safer??? really? I don't believe that we should be expected to submit to being touched w/o warning or cause simply "because". (fill in with whatever reason you think might support these actions).

*due to everyday undergarments and a plethora of benign anomalies flagged by the ATR software demanding resolution by other means.

That the TSA is now physically assaulting women without warning for wearing undergarments is not a surprise. These thugs are violently dedicated to abusing innocent people.

As a prescient Forbes article had it, "The government [the TSA!] is a colossal amoeba twitching mindlessly in response to tiny pinpricks of pain from an endless army of micro-brained interest groups. The point is not to teach the amoeba nor to guide it, but simply to stay away from the lethal stupidity of its pseudopods." http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2012/07/08/july-4th-question-part-iii-americans-revolt-billions-of-times-a-day/

In the spirit of keeping one's self out of harm's way, here's what I recommend NOT wearing when going to battle with the TSA's army of groping slobbering mental and moral midgets: Never wear a skirt, a bra, anything shiny, anything with metallic rivets or threads, anything with buttons, gathers, pockets, zippers, pleats, ties, sequins, or decoration of any kind. Pretty much, I show up in yoga pants and a workout tank top. After a TSA screener raped me with a handheld metal detector as punishment for wearing a skirt to the checkpoint, I wised up.

The childish part of me would like to say that while they don't have to touch your bra, it is very likely that they want to touch your bra.

Without warning is becoming more common place. I recently had a screener who tried to grab my hair without warning. I yelled loudly "don't you DARE touch me without changing your gloves"... and made her tell me exactly what she was doing. She suggested that I could have a full body patdown instead. We exchanged a few words about retaliation and supervisors and she opted to just change her gloves and pat down my hair. She had touched several people without changing her gloves... and touched several people after me... these morons aren't only annoying, they're going to spread disease.

Without warning is becoming more common place. I recently had a screener who tried to grab my hair without warning. I yelled loudly "don't you DARE touch me without changing your gloves"... and made her tell me exactly what she was doing. She suggested that I could have a full body patdown instead. We exchanged a few words about retaliation and supervisors and she opted to just change her gloves and pat down my hair. She had touched several people without changing her gloves... and touched several people after me... these morons aren't only annoying, they're going to spread disease.

TSA, new and improved, now with head lice. :eek:

I know that this sounds naive, but is it not TSA procedure to explain what the are gong to do and where they will touch you before they do so?

Whenever I opt out I have to listen to the entire spiel about resistance and all the rest, even though I have it memorized. If I say that I know the drill and they need not repeat it, the answer is "It is our procedure - we have to tell you."

I have not had this experience of random pushing on my back/bra strap (yet), but how should I proceed with a formal objection to such an assault?

The blue shirted perverts touch your bra every time just like they touch my junk every time because they like it! Why else would a person subject volunteer themselves for a job lime this.

I know that this sounds naive, but is it not TSA procedure to explain what the are gong to do and where they will touch you before they do so?

Whenever I opt out I have to listen to the entire spiel about resistance and all the rest, even though I have it memorized. If I say that I know the drill and they need not repeat it, the answer is "It is our procedure - we have to tell you."

I have not had this experience of random pushing on my back/bra strap (yet), but how should I proceed with a formal objection to such an assault?

During a regular "opt out" groping the full spiel is part of the seemingly standard operating procedure. I believe that these particular assaults are a result of the ATR finding "anomalies" on a large percentage of the population due to the fact that pleats and layers of clothing, undergarments, sweat stains, raindrops and a host of other common considerations are flagged as an "anomaly" that ~might~ be an IED and therefore must be resolved by further inspection and/or physical contact. Since the software flags so many false "alarms", I believe the clerks are simply getting sloppy with the proper procedure and are merely going through the motions at this point. How to proceed from here? Good question!

And be sure to wear a layer that you can tuck way down into your pants, so when the TSO sticks her hand down there she won't touch skin.

And be sure to wear a layer that you can tuck way down into your pants, so when the TSO sticks her hand down there she won't touch skin.

Good to know if you plan on going Commando.

The childish part of me would like to say that while they don't have to touch your bra, it is very likely that they want to touch your bra.

^^ This is the result of giving up our rights in exchange for more security.

Before writing this, I have thoroughly wrapped my head in duct tape so that when my brain explodes, I will at least have all the pieces contained. The following is my attempt at TSA logic:

We are warned when we enter the CP that our person and belongings are subject to screening. Now, forget belongings as they are not part of this discussion, at least for now.

We are also told that we can opt out and get a full pat down or we can choose to try our luck with the WTMD or the scanner, whichever the TSO chooses. Forget the opt out as it is not part of this discussion.

If the WTMD alarms, we know that it will need to be resolved. This is often accomplished by a series of questions and a likely pat down of specific areas. Stuff may be removed from pockets and the WTMD retried. But, this is old hat for most of us and is not part of this discussion.

The ATR scanner alarm is a yellow box placed over the part of the body that the computer determines may contain a dangerous or hidden item. To the TSA, the yellow box is the exact equivalent of the "beep beep" of the WTMD. Since you can see the block and know where it is, we should not be surprised when that area gets checked. Not seeing the block is the same as not hearing the WTMD beep. It does not matter to them. We should know that area will be check as there is a yellow block over it. The big difference is that we can not "take the keys out" and try again, it can only be resolved by touching. The yellow block is there, so we should expect it.

The outlier here is that the procedure for the opt out was developed with the requirement of the speech of what will be done. It, and the related resolution pat down, is the only part of the whole process that is preceeded by any sort of "this is what you can expect" speech. The TDC does not say "I am going to look at your BP and compare it to your ID." The line monitor does not say "I am going to select which line you will be in." The WTMD operator does not say "I am going to instruct you to walk." It is only the opt out that gets a "This is what will happen" speech. For them, touching you after the scanner without warning is the normal process. The warning of the opt out pat down is what is abnormal.

There is one exception that does not involve our person. When getting a bag check they will always ask if it is your bag and if it is OK to look inside or make additional checks. We may wonder why, we may be instantly concerned that items that we possessed upon entering the CP may not be in our possession upon exiting, but we are not completely surprised by the check. It happens.

Yeah, but how many times does the yellow block appear and the pat down finds nothing? Last week at IAD, the screener said there was something indicated on my upper torso. Uh, yeah, they're BREASTS! What a waste of time. :mad:

Yeah, but how many times does the yellow block appear and the pat down finds nothing? Last week at IAD, the screener said there was something indicated on my upper torso. Uh, yeah, they're BREASTS! What a waste of time. :mad:

:D^^^^^^^^^^^^^:D

They probably cant get enough of them.

Sick people.

ALB patted the back of my bra this morning. I couldn't resist commenting to the screener that with as many women as they see every day, they should beable to recognize them by now. Her answer was " It's not us, it's the machine." :rolleyes:

" It's not us, it's the machine." :rolleyes:

Welcome... to the Machine...

There is one exception that does not involve our person. When getting a bag check they will always ask if it is your bag and if it is OK to look inside or make additional checks. We may wonder why, we may be instantly concerned that items that we possessed upon entering the CP may not be in our possession upon exiting, but we are not completely surprised by the check. It happens.
That always makes me wonder... what if I simply say "Yes, that is my bag," but I remain silent or refuse consent for further searches.

It seems weird to me that the TSA would ask consent for this one thing, but nothing else. Supposedly (based on the decision in the Aukai case), consent is granted by putting your bags in the scanner, and further searches triggered by reasonable suspicion do not require consent.

So why do they ask? From other procedures, it doesn't seem like 'politeness' or a general desire to put passengers at ease is at work here.

That always makes me wonder... what if I simply say "Yes, that is my bag," but I remain silent or refuse consent for further searches.

It seems weird to me that the TSA would ask consent for this one thing, but nothing else. Supposedly (based on the decision in the Aukai case), consent is granted by putting your bags in the scanner, and further searches triggered by reasonable suspicion do not require consent.

So why do they ask? From other procedures, it doesn't seem like 'politeness' or a general desire to put passengers at ease is at work here.

That is an interesting question. I always do and say the same thing at the inevitable bag check.

First, they will be standing there with my bag longingly looking for someone to claim it. I give a quick wave to indicate it is mine. I say "Let me gather my stuff, and I will follow you."

At the stainless table, I will volunteer that there is nothing pointy or sharp and say that nothing will hurt them unless they drop it on their foot. (OT: If TSO's are required to carry luggage, they should have safety shoes. But, what can one expect from an organization that does not require dosimeters around xray equipment?)

I say nothing else. They usually never ask permission and I do not give it. I would if they asked, but since I usually lead the conversation, it does not come up. "May I look inside?" might just be a conversational technique and not a legal requirement.

Welcome... to the Machine...

See the next evolution of the Machine here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbgyppGqBgg). Sorry if you get an ad first.

Mike

"May I look inside?" might just be a conversational technique and not a legal requirement.
You are correct. "I need to look inside your bag" is what is required. Along with asking if you have your other belongings and if there is anything sharp or dangerous in the bag. The rest is smalltalk.

The rest is smalltalk.

And if you don't reply to their small talk, you're pegged a terrorist.

Anyone have ideas of avoiding small talk with them and not getting stripped searched in retaliation?

And if you don't reply to their small talk, you're pegged a terrorist.

Anyone have ideas of avoiding small talk with them and not getting stripped searched in retaliation?
Tell them you are hard of hearing.

And if you don't reply to their small talk, you're pegged a terrorist.

Anyone have ideas of avoiding small talk with them and not getting stripped searched in retaliation?

Smile, tap your throat and make gestures indicating you can't speak. Then proceed to make more gestures, smiling all the time, like you're trying to explain something. Act slightly unbalanced, enough to throw them off, but not nearly enough to put you at risk of not flying.

Alternatively adapt a very thick accent - ENGLISH ONLY, for obvious reasons. Cockney, australian, heavy heavy texan drawl. Talk at them and smile.

Or become an upper class Brit circa 1950 and repeat back to them what they're saying with a baffled air. Sorry, I'm afraid I'm not quite following your banter. My holidays? We wintered at the cottage with the Duke, it was ghastly. Purpose? Oh, I seeeeee. Dear oh dear, ol' hearing is not what it used to be, ay? Nonetheless, we shoulder on, do what we must, one tires, Land rover, range rover, sorry?