Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Which routes will loose First Class

Has it been already defined on which routes LH will remove First Class?

Bos-fra
maa-fra

I'm guessing that SEA is next.
I know someone who used a UA SWU from Z. He was the only one in F.
(SEA-FRA)

I'm guessing that SEA is next.
I know someone who used a UA SWU from Z. He was the only one in F.
(SEA-FRA)
A one time experience tells nothing about the average load of a route. ;)

Please for the love of God, fix the thread title to say "lose".

What I heard is that BKK will switch from 747 to A340.... Only question is as 2 class or 3 class... I fear it will be the former.

What I heard is that BKK will switch from 747 to A340.... Only question is as 2 class or 3 class... I fear it will be the former.

TG is launching their new F Suites on their 747 fleet between FRA and BKK soon. Why would LH think anyone would be willing to cough up substantially more money for a product that is ancient? Old F on the A340 still comes without any mattress. Better to scrap F altogether and put 2 classes only on that route.

Simple answer: All routes where you had a remote chance to use your e-vouchers will be converted to C/Y only:mad:

Simple answer: All routes where you had a remote chance to use your e-vouchers will be converted to C/Y only:mad:

High likelihood of being able to use your vouchers = zero chance to sell the seats = why have the F seats to begin with = fly 2 class config instead

If the C product was bearable this logic would be more palatable to the flying public. Now you are only left with the choice of taking your business elsewhere. That's of course not part of the above equation but management will find out rather sooner than later...

If the C product was bearable this logic would be more palatable to the flying public. Now you are only left with the choice of taking your business elsewhere. That's of course not part of the above equation but management will find out rather sooner than later...

Yup. Just dumped my $12,000 LH tickets for Iberia J.
OK, it's not TATL F and I'll miss the FCL/FCT but it is long-haul A340 J all the way to TLV.
And I'm saving money using AA miles.

What I heard is that BKK will switch from 747 to A340.... Only question is as 2 class or 3 class... I fear it will be the former.

I have read here for years how bad BKK and KUL/SGN are doing. Still nothing has happened to that route yet and even for the winter 2012-2013 cuts, BKK was left untouched.

I guess that this might be do to high season, and that the days of F into BKK might be over in 2013?

Simple answer: All routes where you had a remote chance to use your e-vouchers will be converted to C/Y only:mad:

Given that evouchers are only good on D fare and above you might as well just purchase an A class ticket and save some money.

Given that evouchers are only good on D fare and above you might as well just purchase an A class ticket and save some money.

And on which routes A fares are cheaper than D fares :confused: !!!

A one time experience tells nothing about the average load of a route. ;)

Well, let's put it this way then: in my time of looking for LH F availability for *A awards, SEA-FRA tended to have it an awful lot. Also, PDX-FRA and YVR-FRA (neighboring cities, similar demographics) got the 346 with no F at various points in time. SEA, unlike UA hubs LAX and SFO, doesn't really have a lot of *A feed connectivity that might help F sales.

I think what keeps F on the SEA-FRA route is the fact that you can run SEA-FRA on an A333, which helps save fuel expense over a 343, so that might be a reason they'd keep it (cheaper to run a plane with F, and if necessary oversell a cabin and op-up some Y/C pax), until such time as LH has a "right sized" twin-engine, no F plane for the route.

I'm surprised LH isn't converting some A333s into two-class birds, or taking some two-class A333 deliveries- do the markets where LH generally sends A333s end up being strong F markets? I can't see it on ORD-DUS or SEA-FRA... but I don't work in LH revenue management...

And on which routes A fares are cheaper than D fares :confused: !!!

On TG you can get the following discounted First Class fares ex-Italy as an example (all taxes and surcharges and fees in)- they now book into TG code "P" which is their discounted First Class:
BKK 3006
SIN 3300
HKG 3466
PEK 3700
PVG 3556

These are public offers posted on their web page.

SQ also has a number of offers ex-MXP- certainly not that good in First but their 3400 all in roundtrip MXP/SIN with the SQ business is a much better product and deal and is a nonstop versus going through either FRA or MUC.

D fares are not a particularly good deal.

they now book into TG code "P" which is their

I wonder if M&M will give 300% for P class bookings on TG or only 100% ?

I wonder if M&M will give 300% for P class bookings on TG or only 100% ?

Yes they do:
TG First Class A F P x 3,0

My bet is the flight from DFW-FRA will lose F.

Of all the North America to Europe flights on LH, this route is consistently booked the lightest in premium cabins – especially F.

It's great for redeeming F awards, but...

Well, let's put it this way then: in my time of looking for LH F availability for *A awards, SEA-FRA tended to have it an awful lot. Also, PDX-FRA and YVR-FRA (neighboring cities, similar demographics) got the 346 with no F at various points in time. SEA, unlike UA hubs LAX and SFO, doesn't really have a lot of *A feed connectivity that might help F sales.

Hope we see PDX-FRA back soon...with First class or not. Obviously there is demand if PDX-FRA was operated with A346 on somedays.

Hope we see PDX-FRA back soon...with First class or not. Obviously there is demand if PDX-FRA was operated with A346 on somedays.

I doubt that there's demand for both SEA-FRA and PDX-FRA (given that LH is dropping routes right and left), and if you're going to fly to one or the other, it's going to be SEA.

I doubt that there's demand for both SEA-FRA and PDX-FRA (given that LH is dropping routes right and left), and if you're going to fly to one or the other, it's going to be SEA.

We'll see CLE-FRA before PDX-FRA returns.

We'll see CLE-FRA before PDX-FRA returns.

My understanding on the PDX flight was that it had a subsidy from the Oregon and Portland governments- once the subsidy was axed the flight followed shortly afterwards. It is a shame as Portland is a major USA business centre with some very large companies that have European subsidiaries (i.e. Nike, Intel).

My understanding on the PDX flight was that it had a subsidy from the Oregon and Portland governments- once the subsidy was axed the flight followed shortly afterwards. It is a shame as Portland is a major USA business centre with some very large companies that have European subsidiaries (i.e. Nike, Intel).

Compared to Seattle, however, Portland has a considerably smaller metropolitan area population (with commensurately lower demand outside of corporate traffic, and last I checked Seattle has some large companies with European operations like Microsoft, as well as Boeing factories). Without a subsidy, you want to fly to the place with a 6 million population and have 150 mile shuttle flights to the one with 2 million, not the other way around (like it was in 2008 when I flew PDX-FRA-PDX- there was no SEA service, you had to take a UX flight or drive down), especially given that Delta/SkyTeam has much better network feed (thanks to AS) into either SEA/PDX than *A does (given that UA will want to flow you into SFO or LAX, and AC will want to put you into YVR).

Oh, and I think Delta gets the subsidy these days; they serve both AMS and NRT from PDX.

BKK will be switched to A346 - still with F cabin!
(Some of my flights for next year have been changed)

Oh, and I think Delta gets the subsidy these days; they serve both AMS and NRT from PDX.

What are you talking about? The subsidy was nearly 3-years ago! The subsidies have been long gone. And PDX-AMS was never subsidized, just PDX-NRT after the economic fallout.

What are you talking about? The subsidy was nearly 3-years ago! The subsidies have been long gone. And PDX-AMS was never subsidized, just PDX-NRT after the economic fallout.

Good to know what I thought might be the case actually isn't- that's good for PDX that they can sustain TATL and TPAC service with a carrier like DL.

In other news, UA decided to pull all F from MUC in W12-13 and replace it with 2 class pmCO 764 (much nicer business seat compared to the 'lets rub shoulder and look at each other' 772/763 UA C seat):

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileageplus-consolidated/1366325-ord-iad-muc-get-767-400-sfo-lhr-getting-3-class-767-300-iad-dme-ending-aug-28-a.html