China - Planning trip to China in October, draft itinerary

Hi,

I've been reading through the China board FAQs, travel thread, etc. and have gotten a lot of valuable advice. Now, I would like to put out my draft itinerary and ask for advice, critiques, etc. We are 2 couples turning 60 who wanted to celebrate our 60th in China as water dragons in the year of the water dragon (we're not Chinese but thought this was as good an excuse to visit China as any :cool: )

Oct. 8 - arrive in Beijing around 2 pm for 6 nights at Westin Financial District in 2 bdrm suite. Plan to visit forbidden city, a hutong, the ancient observatory, lamma temple, workers cultural palace, imperial college, summer palace, great wall over those 6 days.
Oct. 14&15 - fly to Xi'an and stay in Sheraton Xi'an to visit terra cotta warriors , city wall, muslim quarter, great mosque, big goose pagoda.
Oct. 16 - return to Beijing to take high speed train to Shanghai for 3 nights at either Le Meridien or Hyatt to see assorted museums and tea houses
Oct. 18 - high speed train to Hangzhou and stay in Hyatt for 2 nights to relax and enjoy the beauty.
Oct. 21 - fly to Guilin and stay for 2 nights in Sheraton to do a Li River tour and visit Dragon's Backbone rice terraces.
Oct. 23 - fly to Hong Kong and stay at IC for 4 nights to enjoy Hong Kong, maybe take a side trip to Macau.
Oct. 27 - return to Canada in evening.

I was not planning on hiring a guide for Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong but am wondering about getting one for Guilin. Any thoughts? I'd like to hire a private car to tour the Great Wall but was wondering if we could do 1 car for the 4 of us, all relatively average weight (for Canadian, not Americans :cool:). Any thoughts about what I've included or not included would be greatly appreciated since I have enough time to make either minor or major modifications to my plans. Thank you in advance.

You are zigzagging. You should save Xian after Hangzhou and before Guilin.

Don't get any guide. Most guides are useless at best, taking you to all the shopping places at worst. Just get a driver.

Since you're planning to visit Macau, might as well stay there for a night, even two nights since hotel there is much cheaper. For the cost of a reflgular room at the IC in HK, you can get a room with own swimming pool at the Banyan Tree, for example.

You are zigzagging. You should save Xian after Hangzhou and befor Guilin.

Don't get any guide. Most guides are useless at best, taking you to all the shopping places at worst. Just get a driver.

Since you're planning to visit Macau, might as well stay there for night, even two nights since hotel there is much cheaper. For the cost of a reflgular room at the IC in HK, you can get a room with own swimming pool at the Banyan Tree, for example.

Agreed on the zigzagging point -- there's no reason to go to Beijing twice, and every flight in China sucks up at least 4 hours of your time, even if you aren't delayed.

Here is the order I would propose:

Beijing
Shanghai
Xi'an
Guilin
HK/Macao

I concur with both of the above as to itinerary order and in general, dispensing with guide. Redraft with days reallocated around and resubmit for next round of commentary. :) You definitely have enough time to get this improved.

Assume bullet train Beijing-Shanghai and flights for the Hangzhou-Xi'an, Xi'an-Guilin, and Guilin-HK portions. Heed moondog's warning to allow enough time before/after the flight itself. I'm not enthralled by your day planning so far. And staying in Guilin for two nights while planning to do both a Li River cruise to Yangshuo and the Rice Terraces ain't gonna work logistically, not enough time.

You are zigzagging. You should save Xian after Hangzhou and before Guilin.


At a minimum, fly from Xi'an to Hangzhou or Shanghai, not back to Beijing just to take HSR--there's no appreciable discount for a R/T ticket. If you want a flavor of HSR, take it from Shanghai to Hangzhou.

Oct. 14&15 - fly to Xi'an and stay in Sheraton Xi'an to visit terra cotta warriors , city wall, muslim quarter, great mosque, big goose pagoda.

This is ambitious.

I assume you arrive on the 14th. Unless you take a very early flight from Beijing, you will have only part of the 14th to explore Xi'an. You might be able to do the pagoda, or perhaps the wall (a portion), muslim quarter, and mosque. The warriors will consume a good part of the 15th, leaving you the rest of the day to hit whatever you didn't get to the first day (which could be everything if your flight is delayed). If you're okay seeing only the warriors, and whatever else you may have time for you'll be okay, but if you really want to explore those other things you may want to schedule some extra time.

Thank you for all of the feedback. When I looked at google maps, I realised what you were all talking about and will change my plans so I'll go from Beijing to Shanghai and then to Xi'an, Guilin and Hong Kong.

As suggested by Drewguy, my main motive in going to Xi'an is to see the warriors and the other items are in the "see if time permits" category. I'd certainly like to see them all but I'll be careful to not overdo it.

Jiejie, how many days should I allocate to Guilin to see both the Li River and the rice terraces? Would there be tours to do the rice terraces or would I be looking at a private car in order to see them?

Thank you for all of the feedback. When I looked at google maps, I realised what you were all talking about and will change my plans so I'll go from Beijing to Shanghai and then to Xi'an, Guilin and Hong Kong.

As suggested by Drewguy, my main motive in going to Xi'an is to see the warriors and the other items are in the "see if time permits" category. I'd certainly like to see them all but I'll be careful to not overdo it.

Jiejie, how many days should I allocate to Guilin to see both the Li River and the rice terraces? Would there be tours to do the rice terraces or would I be looking at a private car in order to see them?

1) Xi'an is more than the Warriors. (And I could argue other Xi'an sights are at least as enjoyable, though I do like the soldiers.) If you're going to put the effort into going there, then I'd allot it two full days and overnights. Separate from air travel.

2) You should allocate Zero days to Guilin. What you should do is use Guilin as a transport hub, and as quickly as possible, boogie out of there and spend 3 days at Yangshuo....which is where the REAL scenery is and where you can also take a local boat or bamboo raft to see the best of the Li River. You may safely avoid the Guilin-Yangshuo Li River ultra-expensive and overvalued tourist boat experience....where for a large part of the trip the scenery isn't all that great. Then boogie in the opposite direction (a private car will be pricey but will save you time since you need not fumble with switching transport in Guilin city)--and head up to the other bastion of good scenery which is the Rice Terraces.

The switch of locations will take about a half-day, then have the rest of a day, overnight, another full day, another overnight, then return to Guilin airport to fly on. Of the two major Terrace staging areas/villages, Dazhai is now generally preferred over the larger Ping'an. You can have tours set up, but most people just get transport up there arranged (can be done in Yangshuo once you get there), and make a reservation at a guesthouse in advance. A guesthouse rep can meet your bus/car. Understand that staying at the Rice Terraces is not going to be a luxury exercise, and you don't want to be trekking up hills with lots of luggage. But staying at least one overnight up there will be worthwhile. Once you get to the Terraces, mostly what you'll be doing will be on foot. Your guesthouse can arrange for transport back to the Guilin airport, or can help you get a public minibus/bus to Guilin city, where you can get a taxi to the airport.

Let me give you fair warning for your particular itinerary: if you insist on having a specific hotel selection (Sheraton) dictate your plans for this area, your overall experience will be diminished, as the Sheraton or any Guilin city-based hotel is simply not well-situated for taking advantage of this region's best sights and activities. So, you can choose experiences and maybe going downmarket a bit (though comfortable and clean independent accommodation is definitely available, if you are willing to do your homework)....or stick with the international brand name. For the other places on your itinerary, hotel selection is not so much of an issue since the sights/experiences are pretty much in/near the city.

You may find that at the time you are planning to go, the Rice Terraces will be in process of harvesting and things will be very yellow. Also with the rice high enough, the outlines of the terraces may not be as distinct as during other times of the year and it may look more like yellow mountainside. No way of knowing exactly how this will play out, as each year is a little different depending on how the summer rains go.

Okay, back from our sojourn to Montana for the last month - I try not to plan my next trip while I'm on a trip. I have hotels booked for Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou and Hong Kong. I'm trying to use up hotel points, if it makes sense, and can book either the Hilton or the Sheraton in Xi'an. All are reasonable in terms of points required - does anyone have a preference for either one?

Okay, back from our sojourn to Montana for the last month - I try not to plan my next trip while I'm on a trip. I have hotels booked for Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou and Hong Kong. I'm trying to use up hotel points, if it makes sense, and can book either the Hilton or the Sheraton in Xi'an. All are reasonable in terms of points required - does anyone have a preference for either one?

There's a thread on Xi'an hotels--check that. The Hilton appears to be closer to the center of town, although both require a taxi.

Thanks, drewguy, I didn't see that thread before I posted. I've decided to go with the Hilton.

Now, a question about stay sequence. We are staying in Beijing for 6 nights, then heading to Shanghai/Hangzhou for 3/2 nights before flying to Xi'an. I was thinking of going by HS train all the way to Hangzhou from Beijing, thinking that a couple of days there would refresh us before we head back to Shanghai. However, does it make more sense to stay in Shanghai and then head to Hangzhou?

I've checked the air prices and the fare seems to be the same, 450 yuan, but there seems to be more flight options from Shanghai.

Thanks, drewguy, I didn't see that thread before I posted. I've decided to go with the Hilton.

Now, a question about stay sequence. We are staying in Beijing for 6 nights, then heading to Shanghai/Hangzhou for 3/2 nights before flying to Xi'an. I was thinking of going by HS train all the way to Hangzhou from Beijing, thinking that a couple of days there would refresh us before we head back to Shanghai. However, does it make more sense to stay in Shanghai and then head to Hangzhou?

I've checked the air prices and the fare seems to be the same, 450 yuan, but there seems to be more flight options from Shanghai.

Putting either Shanghai or Hangzhou first is OK, for this itinerary with Xi'an after, there's no ironclad preference. Not sure if a visit to Hangzhou will actually "refresh" you (whatever that means) but it's pleasant enough. If you decide Hangzhou is first, take the G train from Beijing for speed rather than the D.

And staying in Guilin for two nights while planning to do both a Li River cruise to Yangshuo and the Rice Terraces ain't gonna work logistically, not enough time.

Here is what we did: arrived late one night into Guilin, stayed at the Sheraton. Arranged for a driver to meet us at 5:30 am to take us to Yangdi, a place on the Li River where we could take a bamboo boat along the prettiest stretch at sunrise. The driver picked us up downriver at Xingping, where we had breakfast and continued to Yangshuo. We had that full day to bike and hike around Yangshuo and enjoy the amazing scenery. We stayed that night near Yangshuo. We arranged at the lodge for a driver to take us the next day to the rice terraces (at Ping An), where we had some hours to hike. The driver waited for us, then took us to the airport for a late flight out. So the timing is not impossible if you do one of the nights in Yangshuo, though obviously there are tradeoffs. We only had a little time, but greatly enjoyed the trip.

Here is what we did: arrived late one night into Guilin, stayed at the Sheraton. Arranged for a driver to meet us at 5:30 am to take us to Yangdi, a place on the Li River where we could take a bamboo boat along the prettiest stretch at sunrise. The driver picked us up downriver at Xingping, where we had breakfast and continued to Yangshuo. We had that full day to bike and hike around Yangshuo and enjoy the amazing scenery. We stayed that night near Yangshuo. We arranged at the lodge for a driver to take us the next day to the rice terraces (at Ping An), where we had some hours to hike. The driver waited for us, then took us to the airport for a late flight out. So the timing is not impossible if you do one of the nights in Yangshuo, though obviously there are tradeoffs. We only had a little time, but greatly enjoyed the trip.

It's certainly workable if he's taking a late flight out, but definitely not ideal. With the time he has, I'd still recommend he just focus on Yangshuo and dispense with the terraces. Actually, what he should do is take a day off of Beijing (unless he must be there for 6 days for business reasons) and put it on this part of the trip, which then makes including a visit to the terraces--even as a daytrip--a better prospect.

No, the entire trip is strictly tourism. In order to see the terraces, which are high in my to-do list, I could either take a day from the 6 in Beijing or one from the 5 in Hong Kong - any recommendations?

No, the entire trip is strictly tourism. In order to see the terraces, which are high in my to-do list, I could either take a day from the 6 in Beijing or one from the 5 in Hong Kong - any recommendations?You definitely don't need 5 days to see HK - it's not that big! Beijing has a lot to see - and because it's not as efficiently run as HK, you might need the time. I'd recommend the Mutianyu section of the Great Wall - it's at least 90 minutes northeast of the city - but less crowded. As someone mentioned, get a driver but no tour guide.

Okay, one last question before we head to China. I'm booking our flights from Guilin to Hong Kong and the only direct options are on either Hong Kong Airline or Hong Kong Express Airline. Looking at airline ratings on airlinequality.com, neither one of them seems all that great. Any feedback from people who really know?

Thanks

Okay, one last question before we head to China. I'm booking our flights from Guilin to Hong Kong and the only direct options are on either Hong Kong Airline or Hong Kong Express Airline. Looking at airline ratings on airlinequality.com, neither one of them seems all that great. Any feedback from people who really know?

Thanks

They are basically the same airline, both owned by HNA Group.

Dragonair also flies this route and is the better option.

Yes, my plan was to take Dragonair but when I tried to book, the flight is sold out on my day of travel.

Yes, my plan was to take Dragonair but when I tried to book, the flight is sold out on my day of travel.

So, there's really no option. HX and UO are the same airline and it's the same flight KWL-HKG whether you ticket it as HX122 or UO4122.

Well, I thought I was finished with questions but we've hit a major hiccup. Everything is booked except for the flight from Guilin to Hong Kong on Oct. 23. I've been trying to book on Ctrip but three times I've booked a flight only to received an email several hours later saying the reservation was cancelled as the flight was sold out. So, it appears as if there are no flights available to Hong Kong that day.

To me, it looks like my best option is to fly to Guangzhou, there are flights every hour so hopefully one of them is actually available, then take one of the luxury intercity buses to Hong Kong. But, I have some questions:

1) Is that the best way or is there a better option for getting from Guilin to Hong Kong, such as private car, train, etc.?

2) Will it actually be feasible for 4 non-chinese speaking tourists?

3) Most of the posts I found on the bus option are for going from Hong Kong to Guangzhou. To go from Guangzhou, where and when can you buy the bus tickets? Do I have to worry about sold-out buses? I don't want to trade being stuck in Guilin for being stuck in Guangzhou.

4) As I understand it, we'll have to cross a "border" crossing from China to almost China, ie. Hong Kong. Will this be challenging for us non-chinese speakers?

5) Do the buses only go to the Hong Kong Airport or do they go to hotels downtown - we're staying at the InterContinental?

Thank you for your patience and valuable information,

You need to fly to Shenzhen, not Guangzhou. Much closer with lots of transportation option from SZX to HK, while it's a pain in the butt and 3 hours minimum to get from CAN to HK.

Book your KWL ticket now and then we can talk about transportation options.

My plan was to fly to Shenzhen too. But, while there are flights throughout the day from KWL to CAN, there are only flights at 8 am or after 10 pm to SZX. Since we're staying in Yangshuo, I didn't think that the 8 am flight was a realistic option for us and the flights after 10 pm would mean we'd get into SZX after 11:30 pm, which I would assume would make getting to HKG that night challenging.

For CAN, there are flights at 9:35 am, 12:30 pm, 5:55 pm and 7:30 pm. To me, while the subsequent bus trip would be longer, the arrival times would be much better.

Sorry, but I'll still pick SZX over CAN. Spend your last night in Guilin or just arrange the car to drive you from Yangshuo to KWL early.

Or just take the late flight to SZX. It's a cheap taxi ride to the 24-hr Huanggang crossing. Then, several lines of 24-buses to various points in HK.

If you decide to do CAN, there is no direct bus to Hong Kong that I know of. The best ways are either direct bus to Shenzhen, or go to GZ-East station and take either the direct train to Hung Hom in HK or the faster train to Shenzhen.

Okay, one last question before we head to China. I'm booking our flights from Guilin to Hong Kong and the only direct options are on either Hong Kong Airline or Hong Kong Express Airline. Looking at airline ratings on airlinequality.com, neither one of them seems all that great. Any feedback from people who really know?

Thanks

May not be non-stop, but maybe "direct" - CZ has connections via CAN.

Well, have you considered a connection? Besides via CAN, there's a KWL-XMN (Xiamen) flight in the late morning on JD and an early afternoon one on MF, after which you could get an XMN-HKG flight in the afternoon or evening respectively. Looks like there's availability on the 23rd for 4 people. The main downside is if the first flight gets cancelled, you've got few options for recovery.

On the nonstops, I'll back up rkkwan on flying to SZX over CAN also. If you already feel you have enough time in the Yangshuo area, then sign up for the 8 am flight and have a car take you from Yangshuo directly to Guilin Airport, leaving at 5:30 am. Or if you feel your time is too short, take the 10 pm flight and give yourself most of the additional day in Yangshuo, again having a car leave there about 7 pm to take you to the airport. It really comes down to the balance of Guilin/Yangshuo vs Hong Kong time that you want.

There's an overnight Guilin-Shenzhen train leaving daily at 9:18 pm arriving Shenzhen 10:35 the next morning. If you're up for a train experience and can get hold of sleeper tickets (need to get in advance), then that's an option which is not expensive and saves a hotel night. Getting the tickets is the tricky part, though.

I won't recommend the overnight sleeper bus at all. :p I think there's now a day bus from Yangshuo to Guangzhou and/or Shenzhen but it eats up much of a precious day, and you still have to get to HK which wastes the rest of that day.

If you already feel you have enough time in the Yangshuo area, then sign up for the 8 am flight and have a car take you from Yangshuo directly to Guilin Airport, leaving at 5:30 am.


If I were the OP, I'd be monitoring the HK flights daily, in case more seats are released. But, I'd also stay on top of the 8a flight to SZX; if fares start to rise, I'd lock it in. The only way I'd entertain any sort of connection is if the second flight went directly to HKIA (connections suck, but so does the Shenzhen Shuffle.... and the idea of a Guangzhou Shuffle simply sends shivers up my spine).

In the event you end up on the 8a flight, you might want to grab lunch somewhere in Shekou (lots of nice restaurants, but since you'll have all of your luggage, it would be advisable to pick a spot in advance). The border crossing in Shekou (I forget it's official name) is my favorite, and from there, it's only a 40 minute ride to Central/Wanchai. Feel free to PM me if you want Shekou restaurant suggestions; my business partner lived there for 2 years, and I have a few friends that are working there now.

If I were the OP, I'd be monitoring the HK flights daily, in case more seats are released. But, I'd also stay on top of the 8a flight to SZX; if fares start to rise, I'd lock it in. The only way I'd entertain any sort of connection is if the second flight went directly to HKIA (connections suck, but so does the Shenzhen Shuffle.... and the idea of a Guangzhou Shuffle simply sends shivers up my spine).

In the event you end up on the 8a flight, you might want to grab lunch somewhere in Shekou (lots of nice restaurants, but since you'll have all of your luggage, it would be advisable to pick a spot in advance). The border crossing in Shekou (I forget it's official name) is my favorite, and from there, it's only a 40 minute ride to Central/Wanchai. Feel free to PM me if you want Shekou restaurant suggestions; my business partner lived there for 2 years, and I have a few friends that are working there now.

You men the Shenzhen Bay crossing? Why even bother stopping in Shekou proper, since one can just take the ChinaLink bus from SZX to the Elements Mall in HK, with just one stop at the border. Better to just get to their hotels in HK ASAP.

You men the Shenzhen Bay crossing? Why even bother stopping in Shekou proper, since one can just take the ChinaLink bus from SZX to the Elements Mall in HK, with just one stop at the border. Better to just get to their hotels in HK ASAP.

Because I'd be mad hungry after waking up at 5, dining at a 7-11, and enduring a domestic Chinese flight. Second, it's on the way, and we're only talking about a y70 taxi plus a y15 taxi. That y85 easily makes up the difference between a meal in Shenzhen and a meal at a comparable eatery in HK. Third, I'm a firm advocate of the idea that anyone who subjects himself to the Shenzhen Shuffle should at least try to do something/anything in Shenzhen in order to justify it. Finally, when getting a bus at SZX, there's a chance of picking a bus company that uses one of the less pleasant border crossings; yeah, you can ask them, but those who don't speak decent Chinese are prone to being mislead.

Because I'd be mad hungry after waking up at 5, dining at a 7-11, and enduring a domestic Chinese flight. Second, it's on the way, and we're only talking about a y70 taxi plus a y15 taxi. That y85 easily makes up the difference between a meal in Shenzhen and a meal at a comparable eatery in HK. Third, I'm a firm advocate of the idea that anyone who subjects himself to the Shenzhen Shuffle should at least try to do something/anything in Shenzhen in order to justify it. Finally, when getting a bus at SZX, there's a chance of picking a bus company that uses one of the less pleasant border crossings; yeah, you can ask them, but those who don't speak decent Chinese are prone to being mislead.

Which is why I only tell people to use ChinaLink, as they only use Shenzhen Bay (except the very last SZX departure at 11:00p); and all buses go directly to Elements first. The Shenzhen Shuffle is done only because of cost, or there's no non-stop flights to HKG. Plain and simple. No other reason needed to justify it.

For someone who has luggage, and/or doesn't speak Chinese, there's no better option other than private van. And nothing in Shekou is worth an extra stop - it's not like the restaurants are right at the border - as you said, it's one taxi to that particular place to eat, and another taxi to get back to Shenzhen Bay.

as you said, it's one taxi to that particular place to eat, and another taxi to get back to Shenzhen Bay.

There's no "back" about it because it's literally "on the way". Maybe you or the OP would be able to enjoy the food on the airplane enough to refrain from a desire to eat upon landing in Shenzhen, but I certainly wouldn't.

There's no "back" about it because it's literally "on the way". Maybe you or the OP would be able to enjoy the food on the airplane enough to refrain from a desire to eat upon landing in Shenzhen, but I certainly wouldn't.

Not that I'll enjoy the food in flight, but my sight will be straight towards Hong Kong. Nothing will detour me between SZX and the border. ;)

I'm going to monitor the direct flights to HKG for the next few days, as suggested, to see if any seats open up. After that, I'll try booking the flight through XMN. It is only 6 hrs traveling time and there are tickets available for CNY1120+290 tax/fees.

Just out of idle curiosity, why are there so many flights to HKG connecting through PVG and only 2 direct flights? I can't imagine why it's even an option, when it's only 300 miles to HKG from KWL but PVG is 800 miles each way from KWL. Mind you, if you're planning a mileage run, who'd complain :cool:

Thanks again for the help.

I'm going to monitor the direct flights to HKG for the next few days, as suggested, to see if any seats open up. After that, I'll try booking the flight through XMN. It is only 6 hrs traveling time and there are tickets available for CNY1120+290 tax/fees.

Just out of idle curiosity, why are there so many flights to HKG connecting through PVG and only 2 direct flights? I can't imagine why it's even an option, when it's only 300 miles to HKG from KWL but PVG is 800 miles each way from KWL. Mind you, if you're planning a mileage run, who'd complain :cool:

Thanks again for the help.

I really hate doing connecting flights within China, and I also hate waking up at 5a in order to catch a flight. That having been said, the latter is the lesser of the two evils (1.5 hours v. 6 hours). Furthermore, less time in Yangshuo = more time in HK.

Regarding the mileage run aspect, nobody plays that game here.

I'm going to monitor the direct flights to HKG for the next few days, as suggested, to see if any seats open up. After that, I'll try booking the flight through XMN. It is only 6 hrs traveling time and there are tickets available for CNY1120+290 tax/fees.

Just out of idle curiosity, why are there so many flights to HKG connecting through PVG and only 2 direct flights? I can't imagine why it's even an option, when it's only 300 miles to HKG from KWL but PVG is 800 miles each way from KWL. Mind you, if you're planning a mileage run, who'd complain :cool:

Thanks again for the help.

Like moondog says, just as huge a hassle doing connecting flights in China. A lot of times, bags cannot be transferred and you are required to check-in again at your connecting airport. Not to mention, PVG/SHA-HKG flights are often delayed, as the airways are congested between the cities.

And to answer your question, simply there's no demand for KWL-HKG. Guilin is a tourist attraction, not a major industrial or financial base. It's not even the capital of Guanxi Province, one of the poorer and less industrialised in all of China. So, no business trips, and also no wealthy Chinese from Guilin coming to Hong Kong for shopping trips.

Add to that Guilin is an old tourist place for Hong Kongers. I'll say probably most locals who have a "Homeland Return Permit" has visited Guilin and it's not a place one needs to visit and visit again. And for the budget travellers in Hong Kong, cheap tour groups will use buses to get from Hong Kong, and not by plane. Other budget travellers from Hong Kong (on photo-club trips, or volunteering work in the poor rural areas, or visiting relatives) will fly from SZX, poor timing flight or otherwise.

So, those two flights are enough to satisfy the few foreign tourists who decide to make Guilin and Hong Kong on the same trip, or the few relatively wealthy Hong Kongers who want to visit Guilin/Yangshuo for the 20th time, or the few wealthy Guiliners who decide to come to HK for some LV bags.

On the other hand, who are the majority of tourists in Guilin? They are the newly wealthy Chinese from coastal cities. Like Shanghai or Hangzhou or Nanjing or Suzhou, and so on... Not Canadians or Hong Kongers or Japanese. And Shanghai itself has population many times that of Hong Kong, with plenty of them still haven't got their pictures taken in Guilin.

And if you look at flights between HKG and China, most cities only get a few flights a day, except Beijing and Shanghai. Even Kunming - capital of Yunnan, a province with vastly more interesting attractions than Guangxi - only gets three. And Chengdu, one of the largest cities in China and most important in Southwest China - gets five and that's it.

Well, we just got back from our 3 week trip through China and I wanted to thank all of you who gave me advice. It was spot on and helped make it a great trip with no issues that we had any control over.

Our final itinerary was:
Beijing for 6 nights
Hangzhou for 2 nights
Shanghai for 3 nights
Xi'an for 2 nights
Yangshuo for 3 nights
Hong Kong for 4 nights

Beijing - our stay here for 6 nights was pretty well a perfect length of stay. We saw everything we wanted to see without feeling rushed or getting ourselves exhausted. The first day was pretty well just recovering from the flight and going for Peking Duck at Made in China, which was outstanding. After that, we spent the next 5 days visiting hutongs, Lama Temple, Ancient Observatory, Forbidden City, Summer Palace, Tiananmen Square, the Panjiayuan Market and the Great Wall, Mutianyu. We enjoyed each site and didn't regret visiting them. We also spent a couple of hours on several days just wandering around, taking pictures and shopping - ie. we walked back from the Lama Temple to our hotel, the Hilton Wangfujing.

I must admit that walking, or make that climbing, the wall at Mutianyu was quite strenuous, especially the km or so to the right when you get off the chairlift. The views were definitely worth it, once we caught our breath. :D For our trip to the Wall, I asked the concierge but the hotel was charging ¥1200, which was way too much. So, on the way back from the Forbidden City, a random man came up and asked if we wanted a tour to the Wall for ¥350. From reading FT, I knew what was coming but we huddled and decided to see what his offer was. ¥350 for the trip to the Wall and to the Summer Palace, with 30 min. stops at the "silk factory" and a "tea ceremony" or ¥850 for the trip without any side stops. We decided to go for the one with the side stops but before we got in the van the next morning, I discussed the itinerary with our "guide". She seemed honest and said no more than 30 mins at each with at least 2 hrs each at the Wall and at the Summer Palace. So, we went with it. Our guide, Miumyu, turned out to be very personable with good English and kept to her schedule. And, the tour of the silk factory and the tea ceremony were interesting with no pressure at all to buy, which we didn't (although our friends bought a silk blanket that makes into a pillow for ¥250). The ride down from the Wall in the sleds was fun too and totally seemed safer to me than the old ski-lift they were using - at least you're on the ground so you can't fall.

Other than all the amazing sites, the things that stood out the most for me were:
- how there are not thousands of accidents a day on their road system - we saw only 2 but I was sure our taxi was going to hit another car at least 5 times on each ride. We were all amazed at the avoidance skill of the drivers;

- the amount of air pollution - some days you could see the mountains around Beijing, but most days you couldn't see the building next to us. I don't understand how the government doesn't understand that unless this is brought under control, the people of China will start dropping like flies from cancer, emphysema, etc. And the worst pollution wasn't in Beijing but in Xi'an where we all got sore throats and headaches for the unbelievable air pollution levels. The more frightening thing is that supposedly the month of October is the month with the best air quality. Anyone with an existing respiratory condition should think twice about visiting China;

- the neglect of the treasures of China. Wherever we went, whether to monuments or gardens, there were weeds throughout the gardens and damage to the structures. One would think that the government would care more about the historical foundations of China. Mind you, the new China is much worse off. The level of quality of buildings seems to be way below North American/European standards and reminded all of us more of Mexico than Canada. I can't imagine any of the new buildings being around more than 50 years, never mind 500 years;

- what's with the price of tea in restaurants? For example, the first meal we had was Peking Duck at Made in China and tea for the four of us. The duck was ¥285 and the tea was ¥240! And this was repeated at pretty well any restaurant we ate at, whether in a hotel or a stand alone restaurant. Any time I've had dim sum or other chinese meals here in Canada, tea is usually either part of the meal or a couple of bucks a person. Is tea in China like popcorn here at the movies - where the theatre makes all of its profits from the popcorn/drinks;

- we only got ripped off by taxis twice, once on the way from the Ancient Observatory to the Lama Temple which should have only cost around ¥15 but near our destination, the driver blocked the view of the person in the front seat and when he looked again, the price had jumped from ¥16 to ¥28 in 2 blocks and the second time was to the train station for the hs rail to Hangzhou, where one taxi was ¥30 and the other was ¥60. What are you going to do, so we chilled and used it as something to talk about. Good entertainment for a couple of dollars. :cool: ;

- the Hilton Wangfujing was amazing. Although only a gold member, they upgraded me and our traveling companions, who have no status with Hilton. The rooms were outstanding, with views of the Forbidden City, huge bathrooms, very comfortable king beds and not a wiff of cigarette smoke in the entire hotel. They also gave me lounge access and allowed our friends to join us for breakfast in the lounge for free - they asked and access per day was ¥600 for them. Also, after leaving, my friend realised that he had left his noise cancelling headphones in his room. I contacted the lounge attendant and she couriered them to us at the next Hilton we stayed at in Xi'an. All in all, if the HIltons in the US or Canada were even remotely close to this one in luxury of the rooms, food in the lounge and service, I don't think I'd stay anywhere else.

Hangzhou - our stay here was for 2 nights/3 days but we should have stayed longer, 3 or even 4 nights, as we all enjoyed our stay immensely. We stayed at the Hyatt on the lake and it rivaled the Hilton for the quality of its rooms, had a slightly less impressive breakfast but, although I'm only Platinum with Hyatt, they upgraded both rooms and gave all of us lounge access. I can't remember ever getting lounge access as a platinum member before. We spent one whole day wandering around the lake and the other seeing Quyuan Garden and exploring the Qinghefang Old Street area. The fountain show on the lake was right outside our hotel and we watched it a couple of times. It was quite enjoyable. The other thing we all liked was the many public displays of music, dancing, etc. All around the lake, we saw groups of people dancing, singing, playing instruments, etc. - it looked like just random people would come and perform, not organised concerts or shows at all. Also, the level of air pollution was very low here which made staying here more enjoyable.

Shanghai - we stayed here for 3 nights and we all agreed that it was our least favourite place. It was just too much a big city without a lot of interesting sites to visit. If anyone asked me, I would recommend only a short visit to see the Shanghai Museum and to wander around the Bund/French Concession area, maybe even just a day trip for Shanghai. We stayed at Le Royal Meridien and I upgraded both rooms to the club floor with lounge access - which in my mind is a great deal for only 4k points per day per room. Mind you, I wanted to upgrade to an Imperial Suite on the 63rd floor for 12k points a day but I was outvoted by my wife who wants to keep points for Italy next year. :cool: The rooms were much smaller than the first two hotels we stayed in but were still very comfortable with luxurious touches.

Xi'an - we were really torn about our stay here. The level of air pollution was so extreme during our visit that we all suffered. I have never seen such unbelievable air pollution. We visited the Big Goose Pagoda, Watch and Bell Towers (outside only), walked the old city wall and explored the Muslim Quarter. Of course, we also took a tour to the Warriors, which my friend and I both thought were amazing but our wives were totally underwhelmed. Is this a guy thing only? Here we stayed at the Hilton and we were all upgraded to lounge access. Again, another outstanding hotel which makes the Hiltons in North America look sick by comparison.

Yangshuo - we all loved it and thought this was the place we should have stayed the longest. We could have easily spent 5 or 6 days here. But, we didn't. c'est la vie. We stayed at the Yangshuo Village Retreat and loved it. We had booked their 2 bedroom "penthouse" suite which turned out to be on the 5th floor and an immense unit, probably over 150 m2. When I saw the 4 flights of stairs and then looked at our mountain of luggage, I got a sore back just thinking about it. But, the staff waved us away and said they'd deliver it. We went to pick up some of the small hand luggage but they looked like we'd insulted them and shooed us away.

The suite was filled with the most ugly furniture and tons of empty space but the master suite had a huge bed, and an en suite bathroom with a steam shower, a jacuzzi tub and a shower while there was a separate bathroom with shower for the other bedroom, but not en suite. The food was excellent and reasonable and the service was outstanding. I had decided to see if we could do a Yulong River raft tour on the way from Guilin to the hotel on the day we left Xi'an so I sent an email from our ipad but didn't get a reply before we had to board the plane. When we landed, the driver, who couldn't speak english, handed me his cell phone and the person from the hotel confirmed that we could do the raft tour if we still wanted and the price was ¥250/raft - 2 people on a raft. We did and loved it, the weather was perfect, the trip was amazing and we just felt ourselves getting more relaxed and happier by the minute. What a great decision!

While in Yangshuo, we also climbed Moon Hill - which made climbing the Wall seem like a stroll in the park - but was totally worth it for the amazing views, toured Silver Cave, which was totally not worth it, saw the river light show, which was totally enjoyable and worth it at ¥350 per person including transportation for the vip seats - everyone gets a bottle of water so you don't have to bring any with you. On the way back from Moon Hill, we asked the driver to drop us off in town and we wandered around for a couple of hours, taking pictures and buying some souvenirs, before walking the km or so back to the hotel. All in all, we loved our stay and the whole stay, including tours, meals, several taxis, river cruises and accomodation cost us less than ¥3000.

Hong Kong - Our final stop in China we visited twice, once when we arrived from Guilin and a second time when we did a day trip to Macau, where we got lucky at the Wynn casino. We stayed at the Inter Continental, with a view of Hong Kong Island, which was quite impressive especially at night for the light show. We had 2 full days and half a day in Hong Kong before we had to go to the airport, along with the day trip to Macau. We enjoyed the bus ride up and the tram ride down the Peak, especially the bus ride - I can't believe how close the bus gets to both the trees on one side and the traffic on the other, just unbelievable. We also did a day excursion to Stanley, passing Repulse Bay which we all agreed we should have taken time to check out as it looked gorgeous. Stanley was definitely worth visiting. We also enjoyed wandering up Nathan and Granville for some shopping and people watching.

Transportation -
Train - we took the high speed train from Beijing to Hangzhou and from Hangzhou to Shanghai, both times great with no issues, tickets easily bought by the hotel, easy getting on the train even with the crush of non-queuing Chinese, trains on time almost to the second. In my opinion, the first choice for inter-city travel in China.

Air - we flew between Shanghai and Xi'an on China Eastern, between Xi'an and Guilin on China Southern and between Guilin and Hong Kong, through Xiamen, on Xiamen Air. Of the three, we left 30 min. late from Shanghai, 5 min. late from Xi'an and on time from Guilin and 20 min late from Xiamen. They were all relatively similar but I thought the best service and cleanest planes were on Xiamen Air. I'm not sure why but at each hotel, when we asked about how early to get to the airport for our flights, they all said to be there at least 2 hours early, 3 hrs being better. Each time, we took their advice and ended up sitting around for 2 hours once we checked our bags and cleared security. I also made my one big oops by leaving my Diners card at home when I was emptying out my wallet. There are lounges at Shanghai, Xi'an and Guilin that I could have accessed with it but as a gold star alliance member, I had nothing. So, don't leave home without it, if you've got one. :D

So, we had an amazing adventure in China and I think that a large part of our enjoyment was due to the advice and help from all of you kind people here on the China board. Thank you again.