Germany - Driving FAST! should I worry?

I was recently driving through Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, and I like to drive fast. I was regularly going faster than the posted speed. When I got back to the US I was doing some reading and found out that all of those countries employ speed cameras. Should I be worried about getting some sort of ticket? If I do what will the process be and what would be the consequences of doing nothing? I was driving a rental car FYI.

Most regions deploy speed cameras that will give off a bright red flash when they capture you, so you would have noticed. In Germany they have started using cameras with infrared light in tunnels, you won't notice these.

What usually happens is that the authorities contact the car rental companies to find out the drivers details. Hertz and some other companies will provide the data and bill you 20€ for the extra work. That will be the first indication for you that something is going on. Depending on the nature of the violation some authorities may stop pursuing further action once they notice that the driver is resident outside the EU. For example when I rented a Hertz car in Germany with my US address in 2007, I had a parking violation (parked in the handicapped spot at MUC P20, 35€ ticket on the windshield). I forgot to pay in time (7days) and the enquiry went to Hertz (20€) but nothing further happened.

Thanks, I guess I won't worry about being able to drive there in the future then, I just might need to pay a fine. Any clue how big the speeding fines would be should it come to that?

Thanks, I guess I won't worry about being able to drive there in the future then, I just might need to pay a fine. Any clue how big the speeding fines would be should it come to that?

Germany: There is an useful table at this link (http://www.geschwindigkeitsueberschreitung-bussgeld.de/). The fine is speed dependent and increases rather quickly. example: 20km/h too fast costs 35 EUR, 60km/h too fast costs 280 EUR and you are not allowed to drive for two months (they'd take your driver's license from you if you show up in the databases).

Austria: the cost is roughly similar to Germany. see here (http://www.oeamtc.at/media.php?id=%2C%2C%2C%2CZmlsZW5hbWU9ZG93bmxvYWQlM 0QlMkYyMDA5LjA5LjExJTJGMTMyNTk1My5wZGYmcm49c3RyYWZ lbmthdGFsb2cucGRm). Example: up to 20km/h too fast in a city costs up to 60EUR, 50 on the Autobahn. around 50km/h too fast on the autobahn costs between 150 and 300 EUR. There is no country-wide catalogue of fees and variations of up to a factor two are possible.

Switzerland: verrrry expensive. See here (http://www.linker.ch/eigenlink/verkehrsbussen.htm). Same examples: 16-20km/h too fast on normal roads will cost 250CHF (208EUR), faster than 25km/h on the autobahn will result in a law suit. Up to 5km/h too fast (3mph) already costs 20 CHF (16EUR) on the autobahn and 40CHF/33 EUR elsewhere. In other words: do not speed in Switzerland. And if you do, hope you are not caught.

Ouch! Thanks for the info, I have my fingers crossed!

What are the enforcement mechanisms employed against those outside of the country's jurisdiction (like the OP)? Do the various authorities keep a do-not-admit list? Do they issue arrest warrants?

For example, the US maintains a list of citizens from Visa Waiver countries who lose their rights to the Visa Waiver (and would therefore require a formal visa for admittance to the US) for a variety of crimes and misdemeanors. Some traffic violations would qualify.

What are the enforcement mechanisms employed against those outside of the country's jurisdiction (like the OP)? Do the various authorities keep a do-not-admit list? Do they issue arrest warrants?

No such thing that I'm aware of. Similar to the US, traffic violations are a state subject. Criminal offenses are a different matter, those may go into the SIS database which may be a reason to refuse entry into the Schengen zone: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/policies/council-configurations/justice-et-affaires-interieures-%28jai%29/sirene-schengen-information-system.aspx?lang=en/#?lang=en

You might however run into problems, if you are caught on the spot a second time in a certain time and they have you with an open penalty. In this case, they could as far as I know to force you into paying this penalty on the spot as well with all additional costs. But I am not exactly sure about this procedures.

In some areas they use cars and video radar, i.e. they follow you and record you driving too fast and stop you on the motorway.
Usually they use cars like Audi A 6, BMW 3 or 5 series etc. and follow you. If you are driving fast and have a German car (model and license plate) following you, you should consider to reduce speed.

I would advise to make the payment and not worry about it anymore. You don't want an ugly surprise should you get stopped by the border police trying to enter the country with outstanding violations.

You aren't getting any points on your license and your insurance isn't going up because of it, so consider yourself lucky to just get hit with a fine.

And next time better behave on the roads like you would behave at home. I never experienced any relaxed highway cop in the US when it came to speeding and I never understood why certain human beings from the land of the free (unexperienced in driving fast) try to copy a formula I pilot on our roads.

I drive fast at home as well, I was not driving any differently than I would here in the US. I was driving in a manner that I considered safe, and I was usually not the fastest person on the road either.

My main concern with this thread was to figure out my chances of getting a fine in the mail from a speeding camera and what the possible ramifications of that would be for me.

I drive fast at home as well, I was not driving any differently than I would here in the US. I was driving in a manner that I considered safe, and I was usually not the fastest person on the road either.

My main concern with this thread was to figure out my chances of getting a fine in the mail from a speeding camera and what the possible ramifications of that would be for me.

If you were driving at 55 mph on the highway, don't worry.....

Most speed limits are there for a reason... and I find that this is particularly true for Germany where speed restrictions are generally well thought out (like the short stretches of 70 kph limit that you commonly find either side of junctions on Bundesstraßen). And speeding drivers, no matter how confident they are of their own ability, make the roads less safe for others whose reactions may be slower.

Last summer, I could not have broken the speed limit in most of Germany if I had wanted to. Almost everywhere we went was a construction zone. Spent 4 days driving 50kph with concrete barriers 6 inches from my door. Just glad someone had some smooth sailing.

I hit a few pockets of construction, but overall it was free sailing and a lot of fun!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahns_of_Austria#Tolls

I drive fast at home as well, I was not driving any differently than I would here in the US. I was driving in a manner that I considered safe, and I was usually not the fastest person on the road either.

My main concern with this thread was to figure out my chances of getting a fine in the mail from a speeding camera and what the possible ramifications of that would be for me.

think in most cases, "I" is a safe driver, regardless of speed. "I" am a safe driver also. never worried about speed, never slowed down, that was until "I"took that little ferrari down the A6(?) at over 200kps.

( ...) took that little ferrari down the A6(?) at over 200kps.

... that was really fast :D

think in most cases, "I" is a safe driver, regardless of speed. "I" am a safe driver also. never worried about speed, never slowed down, that was until "I"took that little ferrari down the A6(?) at over 200kps.

...and then "I" realized that at 220 Km/h there are two more gears to shift up to...

Which car does 200 Km/s???

Which car does 200 Km/s???

Hmm, not sure if anything man-made has ever gone that fast. Sub-light but not by that much!

'kps' is a new unit for me... :D

Well, it seems that I did get at least one speeding infraction. I got a letter in the mail from the rental agency today stating that they have been obligated to turn over my information to the authorities in Switzerland due to a speeding infraction. The date and time of the infraction was listed but nothing else. The notice stated that I would need to wait up to 4 months to receive communication from the Swiss regarding the payment that I actually owe.

The infringement was supposedly only 2 days before I flew back to the US and was from Switzerland. Conjecture here, but any guesses as to whether I (or the rental agency) will not be receiving any notices from Germany or Austria or indeed any additional notices from Switzerland regarding speeding infractions?

I have not received any infraction yet, only a notice that I will receive one from the rental car agency, however any information on the ramifications of not paying the ticket(s) when I receive it?

Thanks!

I have not received any infraction yet, only a notice that I will receive one from the rental car agency, however any information on the ramifications of not paying the ticket(s) when I receive it?

Thanks!

Well, you could have a warrant issued for your arrest in your home country, for starters.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Switzerland

Pay the ticket.

Now the swiss know who was driving fast, what they do with the info is up to them. You will certainly hear from them. Germans take 3-4 weeks, you would get a similar notification from the rental company.

A few years ago, I drove the west autobahn in Austria. Inconveniently, there are no speed limits posted: The authorities just assume you know it's 130 Km/h unless posted otherwise. So didn't know and had speeds up to 160 or more Km/h (our rental car was substituted last-minute for my wife's cousin's 10 y.o. Audi 4 diesel with no a/c (hot hot April)). Seems the worst part for speed traps was near Linz (emission reasons). As far as we know, the cousin did not get any tickets. It's mostly photo radar there (the Austrians know where they are) with the very occasional manned radar trap.

The infringement was supposedly only 2 days before I flew back to the US and was from Switzerland. Conjecture here, but any guesses as to whether I (or the rental agency) will not be receiving any notices from Germany or Austria or indeed any additional notices from Switzerland regarding speeding infractions?

I have not received any infraction yet, only a notice that I will receive one from the rental car agency, however any information on the ramifications of not paying the ticket(s) when I receive it?

Thanks!

No one can really tell you that. Not sure how it is in Switzerland, but in Germany usually infractions are sent from the Cities or "Landkreise" (some kind of counties). Can be that one City take 2 weeks to notify, some others 1 week. Every infraction will take a different time period for notify your car rental company. Maybe the swiss people were just very fast and some more are coming (no matter if Switzerland, too, or other countries), could be that's the only one (I hope).
However with Switzerland you got probably by far the most expensive one in the 3 countries you drove. Speeding fines in Switzerland are outrageous.

All the best for not getting more notices...

...I have not received any infraction yet, only a notice that I will receive one from the rental car agency, however any information on the ramifications of not paying the ticket(s) when I receive it?
I know someone who recently had to pay a year+ old fine when leaving Switzerland. They do track them and it is a lucrative business (it was for over $1000 with the fees added to it, and had to be paid in cash before being allowed to leave the country). Enforcement does seem to be much stricter than a few years ago, perhaps because fine collection has been outsourced and is a profitable business.

I know someone who recently had to pay a year+ old fine when leaving Switzerland. They do track them and it is a lucrative business (it was for over $1000 with the fees added to it, and had to be paid in cash before being allowed to leave the country). Enforcement does seem to be much stricter than a few years ago, perhaps because fine collection has been outsourced and is a profitable business.Shame about it having to be cash. Using a credit card could have got them some extra miles. This being FT and all....:)

I too know of folk who have not paid their Swiss speeding fines .... and found that they were required to make a forced detour to an ATM in the company of the airport police before they were given their boarding pass back at the security control.

Fess up, pay up. Avoid any interest charges and know that you can return to Switzerland with a clear conscience and where you will be welcomed with your slate wiped clean.

Just want to share my recent experiences regarding a speeding ticket in Germany:

I was caught in one of those photo speed traps on a recent trip to Germany driving a rental car. Clearly noticed the flash from the camera as I was entering the city of Sassnitz . About a month later I recieved a letter at my home address in Denmark with a fine of 25€ for doing 65km in a 50 km zone. In addition to that , the rental company (Sixt) asked for 18.50 € in administration fees and the banks charged about 30€ in between them to handle the payment transaction.
So in the end, a fairly modest 25€ fine turned out to cost a little over 70€.

Which rental company you use also matters (assuming these fines will be pursue from non-EU violators). When I rented from Sixt, they photocopied my passport. Hertz and Avis only asked to see my drivers license (did not photocopy).

Didn't slow down fast enough as the speed limit went from 80 to 60. Was caught at 83 around 12:30AM.

A month later, Sixt charged an administrative fee. Good thing about the Sixt website is that they make the letter available online. 3 weeks after that, I got a letter from the authorities (I live in the US). I ignored it (yes, I'm now a fugitive). Several weeks after that, I got a second notice. This time the envelope had what appears to be a Deutsche Post return receipt except the US postal service had no idea what it is and left the receipt attached to the envelope. Have not heard from the authorities after that. Since they never got the return receipt back, I'm guessing they believe that got a bogus address from Sixt.

If you tavel again to Euope/ Germany you get a huge problem....
Maybe you go in Jail/ Prison for some Days.

@seawolf: don't be fooled by the RR left on the envelope, USPS nowadays provides tracking info back to the German postal system. Last year I mailed a camera that a FTer had forgotten in MUC to Illinois by registered mail and saw the delivery info a few weeks later using the German tracking site. Pay the 70€ fine and move on...

Already been back to Germany several times since the ticket. No issues.

And as for return receipt, I don't see how any information is provided given no bar code or numbers are on the return receipt facing the outside of the envelope. All the identifying information is on the side pressed against the envelope.

Just took another look at the receipt. No article number or bar code whatsoever. This is a old fashion return receipt. The mail carrier was suppose to detach upon delivery and return to Germany.

I didn't look closely at the envelope I got from the Swiss government so I don't recall if there was or should have been any tracking info, but apparently I'm not as brave as you, as I paid my fine!

@seawolf

In this case, I suggest you avoid renting Sixt again, because they have you in their system for sure.

I do not comment on doing something against the law and not taking the responsibility (= paying the fine), but I had the pleasure to hear by a colleague, that Police in Düsseldorf waited for someone from UAE as he picked up a rental car at Düsseldorf Airport. He had open fines for some 350 EUR excluding costs. He had rented again and the rental company had informed the police the renter would pick up the rental car at a certain station and he also had notified the rental agency of his incoming flight. It must been a nice surprise for him to be set back close to 600 EUR after arriving in Germany and his diriving license was suspened for one month and he was not allowed to drive on German streets.

On another occasion police in Munich waited for a US driver who drove with more than 120 km/h where only 60km/h were allowed (city limit) and did not stop as the driver was requested to do so. The rental company informed the local authorities when the rental car was scheduled to be returned and waited for the driver at the airport in MUC.

Beeing lucky once or twice does not mean you are lucky all the way in the future.

I have not rented from Sixt since for the reasons stated but I'll find out next week in Munich. Not sure if Bavaria will try to collect a ticket from NRW.

If you just received the second letter so far you are probably not on any watch list yet. Such lists are maintained at a federal level in Germany and the Bavarian state police are known to be the nastiest enforcers of the law. So good luck to you when your ID is checked with a database for some reason ;)

Immigration cross check your details with the SIS, though I doubt that has records of non criminal offenses.

Back from Germany. Non-event. Even rented from Sixt using my membership number.

I'm not a lawyer but I think if they have 3 months to prosecute and 3 years to collect.

Statue of Limitations (http://www.21tsc.army.mil/aerja/LegalAssist/Areas-German%20&%20EU%20Issues/01-05-DUI.pdf) information (page 10).

With respect to most traffic law violations § 26 para. 3 StVG (“Straßenverkehrsgesetz”, German Road Traffic Act) calls for a 3-month period only as far as the limitations of prosecution are concerned. The Administrative Fine Order (“Bußgeldbescheid”) has to be issued within a 3-month period. If done, a 6-month period follows before the Statue of Limitations runs out ON CONDITION that the Administrative Fine Order was served within 2 weeks after its issuance (§ 33 No. 9 OWiG).

German Road Traffic Law (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvg/)
Act on Regulatory Offences (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_owig/index.html)

This is how it went down.
Penalty authority sends questionnaire sent out to owner (Sixt). No fine information since this is not the Bußgeldbescheid.
Sixt sends my info to the penalty authority.
Penalty authority sends questionnaire to me. Again, this is not the Bußgeldbescheid.
Penalty authority didn't get response from me and assumes I'm guilty and sends me the Bußgeldbescheid. This had the return receipt. They need the return receipt to prove that they served notice within the 3-month period of offense else statue of limitations runs out in 3 months vs. 6 months from when Bußgeldbescheid was issued.

USPS did not return the return receipt. So it seems to me they can't be sure the Bußgeldbescheid was served.

Bottom line is if you know you're not going to be back in Germany within 3 years, you probably don't need to respond to their correspondence.

This is how it went down.
Penalty authority sends questionnaire sent out to owner (Sixt). No fine information since this is not the Bußgeldbescheid.
Sixt sends my info to the penalty authority.
Penalty authority sends questionnaire to me. Again, this is not the Bußgeldbescheid.
Penalty authority didn't get response from me and assumes I'm guilty and sends me the Bußgeldbescheid. This had the return receipt. They need the return receipt to prove that they served notice within the 3-month period of offense else statue of limitations runs out in 3 months vs. 6 months from when Bußgeldbescheid was issued.

USPS did not return the return receipt. So it seems to me they can't be sure the Bußgeldbescheid was served.

Bottom line is if you know you're not going to be back in Germany within 3 years, you probably don't need to respond to their correspondence.

Are you that sure? I did not get very many tickets so far, just 2 and it is a long time since I got the last one. AFAIK, they always send a Bußgeldbescheid right away and you have to return it with proper information in case you did not commit the offence. So the 3 month period is ticking. It would be stupid if they would do it otherwise, since one can just wait around and do nothing (as you are trying). Further on, as stated before, USPS is returning the information about the delivery. I would bet that the return ticket is not needed therefore.

Based on the research above and again, I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice. This is just a my interpretation. I leave it to you to come to your own conclusion based on the regulations above.

There are two different documents sent. One was to find out who the driver is. The first one is always sent to the owner. It will refer to the law which was broken, has no fine amount and asking for identity of actual driver. This is to identify the person in the photo.

One they get the driver information (or no response) they send the actual fine notice. If they don't issue the fine notice within 3 months, they have to drop the matter. The fine notice, once issued and uncontested (seems like you have a 2 week period) is valid for 3 years. During which time they can collect on the fine, hold your license, or ask a judge to throw you in jail and/or seize your property. (I think this is where a lawyer would come in and ask for proof that the fine notice was issued and served within the statue of limitations.)

As for USPS, again there is zero identifying information on the return receipt facing the outside of the envelope. So unless USPS is using RFID on a return foreign return receipt (when they don't use on US return receipts), I don't see how they can say to Detusche Post, it was delivered. Additionally, the return receipt had a section for addressee delivered to and signature of addressee. This is hard paper proof that the fine notice was served on actual date to person accused but it is here in the US and not in Germany.

One thing to keep in mind is that this process was designed for domestic drivers. It would be difficult not to run into law enforcement within 3 years if you were living there.

Another interesting note is that according to the US State Department, serving notice across borders is governed by treaty. Germany prohibits (http://travel.state.gov/law/judicial/judicial_648.html#service) foreign plaintiffs from serving to a German defendant directly by mail. So if the situation was reversed (German driver with US ticket), the US authority probably can not serve the ticket to the German driver directly through the postal system. It has to go through a process specified by treaty.

Adding the following so that if the links in post 40 were to be ever be removed, the information can still be Googled.

StVG = Straßenverkehrsgesetz = German Road Traffic Act
Bußgeldbescheid = Administrative Fine Order
OWiG = Gesetz über Ordnungswidrigkeiten = Act on Regulatory Offences
Bußgeldkatalog (http://www.bmvbs.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artikel/StB-LA/bussgeldkatalog.html?nn=35732) = Traffic Fines

PDF (http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/contentblob/29064/publicationFile/60016/bussgeldkatalog-verordnung-bkatv.pdf) document containing fines (in German)

Another interesting note is that according to the US State Department, serving notice across borders is governed by treaty. Germany prohibits (http://travel.state.gov/law/judicial/judicial_648.html#service) foreign plaintiffs from serving to a German defendant directly by mail. So if the situation was reversed (German driver with US ticket), the US authority probably can not serve the ticket to the German driver directly through the postal system. It has to go through a process specified by treaty.

Last time I got a ticket in the US I was stopped on the road by two policemen with guns. No discussion, no such attempts to escape from what I deserved. I paid 30 USD and continued my travel.

By the way: There are ways to extend the three month period. And there are ways to serve documents on you (if your currents domicile is unknown) validly even without you getting aware of it. WE WILL GET YOU - even without two policemen with a gun:D

I can;t beleive there is all this debate. You got a ticket, pay it! SMH!

There is a "fee" for not paying fines. So not paying helps the local/federal budget once caught :D. Pls. keep on not paying. Well will catch you. That might end up very expensive for you and very positive for the local & federal bugets. ^ Thanks for your support. :cool:

On the other hand, if you want to avoid extra costs and problems, just pay. @:-)

BTW: Tickets are now issued within the EU. There are quite a number of very astonished Germans who are receiving foreign speeding tickets and the invoice order in their mail.

Only up to 70€!
Except Austria <-> Germany the have a special Contract about.

Last time I got a ticket in the US I was stopped on the road by two policemen with guns. No discussion, no such attempts to escape from what I deserved. I paid 30 USD and continued my travel.

By the way: There are ways to extend the three month period. And there are ways to serve documents on you (if your currents domicile is unknown) validly even without you getting aware of it. WE WILL GET YOU - even without two policemen with a gun:D

???

Polizei have guns. :confused:

Polizei have guns. :confused:Yes, for many years now.

???

Polizei have guns. :confused:

In particular in the US.

In particular in the US.

OK, now I'm confused. I worked alongside the Nürnberg Mitte polizei and have done joint training exercises with various agencies in both the Mittelfranken and Oberpfalz Polizeipräsidiums, and all of their officers had guns. The riot polizei have bigger guns. The Bundespolizei at the airports walk around with sub-machine guns in addition to their handguns.

Why the comment on US police and their guns?