Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - Minutes of the meeting June 2012 FB Programme Rules Manager, Jouy31 & Gajan

Dear All,

On Monday 11 June 2012, Jouy31 and myself had a short meeting with the Programme Rules Manager at Flying Blue. Our apologies for the delay.

During this meeting, we covered the following topics:

1. New intra EU-Awards with now include the fuel surcharge;
2. Research into new award schedule for long-haul;
3. Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold members.


1. New intra EU-Awards with included fuel surcharge

At the beginning of June 2012, Flying Blue implemented a change in the award schedule for intra-EU awards. Under the new rules, the fuel surcharge is included in the price of the ticket; the fees such as airport taxes are still to be paid.

When implementing these changes, other changes have also been made. In Economy, there are now 4 award booking classes; in Business there are 2 booking classes. Economy and Business each have one flex booking class.

Example of new booking classes

For example, AMS-LHR will give you the following options:

Economy:

10K (Classic);
12.5K (Europe Classic);
20K (No Name);
30K (Flex).


Business:

30K (Classic);
40K (Flex).



Increase in availability

Based on our impression and information from Flying Blue, the number of award seats in the lowest two Economy fare buckets remains the same.
However, they have introduced more award buckets, thus increasing the overall availability, i.e. you are only booked into the more expensive buckets if there is no availability at lower levels. The increase of new award booking classes has led to a significant increase in the number of award seats.

Increase in cost for C-redemption

One significant change is that the number of miles needed for the intra-EU awards in Business Class has increased for the Classic & Flex awards. The reason for this is that the costs have to be budget neutral.
Based on Flying Blue data, the number of intra-EU awards in business class is significantly low (we are talking about less than 10% here). For this reason, they do not expect many flyers to be affected by the increase in intra-EU awards in Business Class.

Grace Period

As the new schedule was introduced without any prior notice, Flying Blue is working on a grace period, i.e. it will be possible to book awards based on the old rules. Flying Blue does recognize that the lack of prior communication needs to be worked on and will take this into account for the future.

It is confirmed that the grace period will continue until the end of 2012. If you want to book old awards under the old scheme, you are requested to book your award via the call center agents (i.e. you can still book intra-EU C-awards at the "old price").


2. Research into new award schedule for long-haul flights

Flying Blue is in the research phase of re-evaluating long-haul awards. We would like to point out that no decision has been made as yet - that is the reason your input was requested.

After the introduction of the new intra-European awards, Jouy31 and I passed the message on that FlyerTalkers were worried that we may see a significant increase for the long-haul awards as well.
Flying Blue is still working on this topic. Certain scenarios are under review; no decision has been made as yet.

One solution we suggested would be to offer to pay the surcharge with miles as a choice, i.e. having two award schemes in place. In this way, no one would be worse off as they would have a choice if they would want to pay the fuel surcharge with miles or with the current scheme.

It is our opinion that we should bring ideas forward that are revenue neutral: it seems unlikely that the fuel surcharge will be included in the ticket without seeing an increase in the number of miles needed.

3. Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold Members

As discussed during the Air France/ADP FlyerTalk Do, Flying Blue is aware that there is hardly any difference between Flying Blue Gold and Platinum members and would like to change this by increasing the benefits for Platinum members.

You are requested to make suggestions and these will be passed on to Flying Blue. Currently the following suggestions have been forwarded:

Give Platinum members lounge access vouchers so they can bring in extra guests / family members;
Companion awards for Platinum members à la Lufthansa;
Separate lounges for Platinum members.
We have been told that this would not be possible due to the current infrastructure at CDG .


4. Final remarks

Please note that our discussions with Flying Blue are ongoing and we will keep you informed of any news. Constructive remarks will definitely be forwarded (and Flying Blue reads this thread as well).

On a final note, in a recent post DutchBoeing (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/18879251-post87.html) referred to an interview Zakenreis had with Harm Kreulen (Director KLM Nederland) that long-haul awards are to increase. After confirmation from Flying Blue, we would like to inform you that no decision has been taken as yet (please refer to the discussion above).

If you have any remarks/questions please do not hesitate to let us know. We look forward to your comments.

With best regards,

Jouy31 & Gajan

First, I'd like to thank both of you for your continuous involvement and efforts with AF/KL for making our favorite airline program ;) better and better. And thank you for sharing your discussions with us.

2. Research into new award schedule for long-haul flights

Flying Blue is in the research phase of re-evaluating long-haul awards. We would like to point out that no decision has been made as yet - that is the reason your input was requested.

After the introduction of the new intra-European awards, Jouy31 and I passed the message on that FlyerTalkers were worried that we may see a significant increase for the long-haul awards as well.
Flying Blue is still working on this topic. Certain scenarios are under review; no decision has been made as yet.

One solution we suggested would be to offer to pay the surcharge with miles as a choice, i.e. having two award schemes in place. In this way, no one would be worse off as they would have a choice if they would want to pay the fuel surcharge with miles or with the current scheme.

It is our opinion that we should bring ideas forward that are revenue neutral: it seems unlikely that the fuel surcharge will be included in the ticket without seeing an increase in the number of miles needed.

As I said in the dedicated thread, I'm not in favor of increasing the fuel surcharge in the award scheme, which will obviously lead to an increase in the number of miles needed to redeem a ticket. But that's just my personal opinion and I acknowledge other FT members might disagree with this. That's why, I completely concur to your suggestion to have the possibility to pay the fuel surcharge with miles as an option. IMO, this is the only thing to do for LH flights, as there are already several redemption scheme (classic, extra inventory for elite, flex) and increasing the number of redemption schemes might make the system more confusing.

3. Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold Members

As discussed during the Air France/ADP FlyerTalk Do, Flying Blue is aware that there is hardly any difference between Flying Blue Gold and Platinum members and would like to change this by increasing the benefits for Platinum members.

You are requested to make suggestions and these will be passed on to Flying Blue. Currently the following suggestions have been forwarded:

Give Platinum members lounge access vouchers so they can bring in extra guests / family members;
Companion awards for Platinum members à la Lufthansa;
Separate lounges for Platinum members.
We have been told that this would not be possible due to the current infrastructure at CDG .


This is a very interesting topic as well and that was also discussed during the CDG DO during the FB workshop (at least in the group I was - Jouy31 was part of it also). What was also discussed during this workshop is that LTPE should have also a few more benefits than non-LTPE, as a recognition of their long loyalty.
For the 2 first points of your list, I agree that it could be nice. For the 3rd one, although it would be wonderful, I understand it's not feasible in short or medium term. However, in the current large lounges at CDG and AMS (and also in some outstations where they have large lounges e.g. JFK, JNB, etc), they could have a dedicated area for plat members. As an example, in CDG 2E main pier lounge (i.e. the one serving the newly named K gates), the best place is the mezzanine (on the left when you enter the lounge). This mezzanine used to be the 1st class lounge before they had the 1st class lounge and is much more quiet and less crowded at peak times than the rest of the lounge. So they could reserve this area for plat members. The same can probably be done in other large lounges.
Another very important point would be that plat members have a clear higher priority for operational upgrades (over gold, then silver, then ivory), while today the rules followed by AF/KL (or Gaetan or other softwares used) are still extremely unclear. It seems to me, based on my own experience during the last 12 months (and on those of other gold and plat colleagues), that elite + members benefit of more op-ups than it used to be. But many factors could be involved and this "potential" benefit should be clearly acknowledged (I insist on the word potential, because of course an upgrade should never be considered as expected by the traveller to not devaluate the product).

Regarding special recognition/benefits for LTPE members :
- I have said to FB people during the CDG DO that giving full free access to La Premiere ground services at CDG (including the lounge) once or twice a year would be a very nice benefit, irrespective of the class of travel. Even for our Dutch friends, I believe it could be a nice benefit as many of them are flying often via CDG.
- Still about La Première ground services, one could also imagine that LTPE departing from CDG could benefit of the private check-in for all LH flights (and non-schengen medium haul flights departing from 2E), but not for the rest of the La Première ground services. I believe this would cost nothing for AF, as the 1st class check-in area is generally empty, can accommodate about 20 pax at the same time, and the dedicated staff is far from being occupied full time right now.
- Another benefit could be to have some extra availability on long-haul business award (at the current redemption schemes, i.e. not by creating and extra case for more miles).
- In case of transfers at AMS and CDG (and why not at other Skyteam hubs where AF & KL have some staff and where a lot of pax connect to other flights, i.e ATL, JFK, ICN, FCO, etc), to have a facilitated/speed-up transfer with an attendant waiting at the arrival of the incoming flight.

That's all at the moment. If I have other ideas, I'll let you know :)
Thanks again !

3. Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold Members

As discussed during the Air France/ADP FlyerTalk Do, Flying Blue is aware that there is hardly any difference between Flying Blue Gold and Platinum members and would like to change this by increasing the benefits for Platinum members.

You are requested to make suggestions and these will be passed on to Flying Blue.

Thanks - interesting meeting, good to read FB is giving more attention to its very frequent flyers!

I have two suggestions for extra benefits on board for Platinum members who fly mostly Y:

1) As mentioned often at FB, it would be nice if Af/KLM would block out middle seat for Plats on intra-European flights that are not full.

2) Increase the number of economy fare-classes that are eligible for upgrades to C (I used this a lot pre-FB when there were more possibilities for upgrading with miles).


What was also discussed during this workshop is that LTPE should have also a few more benefits than non-LTPE, as a recognition of their long loyalty.

Gajan and Jouy31, was this raised at your meeting? Except for no need to reach the 70,000 threshold each year, I have not noticed any other changes since I became LTPE.

(Although.... on my first and only AF flight since reaching LTPE both the Y and C pursers came by to welcome me; first time an AF purser talked to me ;))

One key point, which I'll only reiterate what I said before. I would be very strongly opposed to any increase in long haul J award levels. They are currently either similar or worse than the competition and any further increase would price them out of the market in a significant way. The same is true of P awards which are already far too high compared to the competition. I really do think that FB should consider award travel a market in its own right and compare income (miles retribution) and costs (award pricing levels) vis-a-vis the competition in terms of refering to their own (irrelevant to passengers) accountancy issues, otherwise, they are exactly in the position of the local restaurant which has lost customers and therefore decides to increase the price of the steak and chips from €20 to €40 because they calculate that they need to sell it at that price to break even and then wonder why they lose further customers (and decide to push up the steak price to €60 instead!!)

I do personally think that pricing PE half way between Y and J would not be absurd but that is a very personal statement.

Platinum benefits (vs gold). First of all, restating the obvious, this should be new benefits for platinum, not fewer benefits for gold. There seems to be near universal agreement on this board, for instance, that one feels more of an 'important customer' with BA Gold than with AFKL Platinum.

- I personally have no real interest in extra guests vouchers (but I imagine some others might like it)

- I know I repeat myself but my main priority is the 'what when it goes wrong' care. I think that a system explicitly giving further flexibility to plats in the case of potential irrops (e.g. better rerouting options, possibility to change flight easily a la DL, systematic upgrade in case of significant IRROP, etc) would be good.

- I think some upgrade vouchers would still be both doable and welcome. I also agree with Goldorak about clear upgrade priority in pecking order as opposed to the (unnecessarily?) complex and obscure Gaetan. Not everything that is complicated is necessarily good.

- Depending in what is decided about the new European offer on AF there might be further ways to give Platinum members some benefits.

- I wouldn't be too keen on systems that differentiate by trip/destination and giving access to 'private check in' facilities for 2E would likely to be quite costly in personnel terms and not necessarily a good investment in my view, so I would personally prefer x 'Premiere lounge vouchers' every year (or 'Premiere service vouchers') in addition to the upgrade vouchers would be a good idea I would think.

- chrissxb had one idea I really liked too but don't want to speak on his behalf

- I agree it would be good to have further benefits for life time platinum members, especially as many of them keep flying enough for them to otherwise 'qualify' which they neither need nor get any reward for.

One key point, which I'll only reiterate what I said before. I would be very strongly opposed to any increase in long haul J award levels. They are currently either similar or worse than the competition and any further increase would price them out of the market in a significant way. The same is true of P awards which are already far too high compared to the competition. I really do think that FB should consider award travel a market in its own right and compare income (miles retribution) and costs (award pricing levels) vis-a-vis the competition in terms of refering to their own (irrelevant to passengers) accountancy issues, otherwise, they are exactly in the position of the local restaurant which has lost customers and therefore decides to increase the price of the steak and chips from €20 to €40 because they calculate that they need to sell it at that price to break even and then wonder why they lose further customers (and decide to push up the steak price to €60 instead!!)


+1

and more taking in consideration, at least in my experience, that availability in Biz Classic awards is worse than with other FFP

What about certain benefits which you will earn at threshholds above the main Platinum threshholds? For instance loungemembership when not flying ST for the topflyers à la DL Diamond. Indeed F lounge vouchers or the waiving of all kinds of fees; free phoneline and free change of tickets. And maybe even SDC or choice benefits; upgrade vouchers like LH SEN, Bonus miles or CL/Salon AF vouchers like DL?
But Gold benefits should not suffer to differentiate the benefits.

Thanks Gajan!

Increase in cost for C-redemption

One significant change is that the number of miles needed for the intra-EU awards in Business Class has increased for the Classic & Flex awards. The reason for this is that the costs have to be budget neutral.
Based on Flying Blue data, the number of intra-EU awards in business class is significantly low (we are talking about less than 10% here). For this reason, they do not expect many flyers to be affected by the increase in intra-EU awards in Business Class.

So this confirms what we already expected. And, imho, it does not make much sense. If so few people fly on Europe Business rewards, how are they gonna make up for the losses on Economy rewards? Especially now that with these changes even less people will redeem Business awards..

What was also discussed during this workshop is that LTPE should have also a few more benefits than non-LTPE, as a recognition of their long loyalty.
I am not sure if I agree. LTPE members get something very valuable: The highest tier status for free, for the rest of their life. I fail to see why they deserve to get more than somebody who right now flies over 60 segments a year for example :)

However, in the current large lounges at CDG and AMS (and also in some outstations where they have large lounges e.g. JFK, JNB, etc), they could have a dedicated area for plat members. As an example, in CDG 2E main pier lounge (i.e. the one serving the newly named K gates), the best place is the mezzanine (on the left when you enter the lounge). This mezzanine used to be the 1st class lounge before they had the 1st class lounge and is much more quiet and less crowded at peak times than the rest of the lounge. So they could reserve this area for plat members. The same can probably be done in other large lounges.
I doubt something like this would be feasible. As AFKL currently already has issues fitting everybody in the hub lounges at peak times, reducing capacity by offering Plat members more space would worsen the capacity issue.

I think any ideas that we bring forth should be of the kind where AFKL does not incur any (hardly any) extra charges. So kinda like the idea of upgrade priority lists and so on...things that offer something extra, but do not cost extra for the airline. And yes that probably means fewer benefits for Gold/Silver members. I doubt we will be able to avoid that though.

So basically I am sure that we can think of great ways to improve things, but I doubt there is any reasonable budget available for such changes. Not sure if we can get that confirmed though..?

So basically I am sure that we can think of great ways to improve things, but I doubt there is any reasonable budget available for such changes. Which makes this more of a shuffle-game of benefits than anything else.

I can somewhat agree with the above.

Expecting to get access to the F lounge would be nice, but based on my feeling I would not expect anything in that magnitude (as the potential costs are quite high). AF has clearly stated they want to keep the F-product exclusive and allowing PE members on full-fare Business tickets access (for example) does reduce the exclusivity of the product.
Without comparing LH and AF in this matter, LH does not grant its Sentors access to the F lounge/terminal unless flying in F (SEN comparison with PE would seem the more logical choice than comparing PE with HON).

You can think of the line of fine tuning certain things. Blocking of middle seat for PE members, wait list for award seats (a la Lufthansa), companion awards (a la Lufthansa - 50% off for second person), a minimum mileage earning amount for Elite members of 500 miles etc.

Furthermore, I agree with you Xandrios that I fail to see why LTPE should get extra benefits over a PE member - they get the biggest benefit that they do not need to requalify. More important would be to give the current PE members extra benefits that they would feel more differentiated from Gold members - giving future LTPE members added benefits does not give them anything now.

Gajan

What about certain benefits which you will earn at threshholds above the main Platinum threshholds? For instance loungemembership when not flying ST for the topflyers à la DL Diamond. Indeed F lounge vouchers or the waiving of all kinds of fees; free phoneline and free change of tickets. And maybe even SDC or choice benefits; upgrade vouchers like LH SEN, Bonus miles or CL/Salon AF vouchers like DL?
But Gold benefits should not suffer to differentiate the benefits.

To be honest, with current roll-over of miles I these level miles are not lost but are already carried over for next year(s). I am not sure that they are talking about introducing a fifth level but can always ask.

The idea of booking (award) tickets over the phone free of charge is a good idea IMHO.

Furthermore, I agree with you Xandrios that I fail to see why LTPE should get extra benefits over a PE member - they get the biggest benefit that they do not need to requalify. More important would be to give the current PE members extra benefits that they would feel more differentiated from Gold members - giving future LTPE members added benefits does not give them anything now.



I certainly agree that the priority is to give Plats more advantages in addition to what gold's get. However, it is not absurd to think that Lifetime Plats should get more. There are two reasons for that. First, FFPs are supposed to reward loyalty. Long term loyalty is the best of all loyalties for any business. In fact, some airlines (e.g. KE) explicitly base benefit on lifelong loyalty as opposed to yearly loyalty. You are right that not needing to requalify is an important benefit but it does not necessarily mean no other benefit should be thought of (otherwise, one could similarly say: 'there is no need to give extra benefits to Platinums over golds because when you are platinum, you get the biggest benefit of all which is to start accruing towards lifetime status'). The second essential element is that at the risk of expressing a truism, not needing to requalify is only an advantage when you would not qualify in the first place. Many life time platinum members effectively continue to fly well over the 70000 miles a year that would make them qualify for platinum if they were not 'for life' already. In effect, these cumulated level miles are 'wasted'. So in that sense, it would conceivably make sense to create benefits that are meaningful to all LTP including those who continue to fly! Here are a few possibilities that could serve as specific LTP benefits:

- to give LTP a 'companion' gold card (after all, NL Amex Platinum members are given companion cards already even if they do not fly at all so not absurd to extend the benefit to LTP)

- or to allow them to 'offer' their yearly level miles to a companion (e.g., you are LTP, you flew 20k level miles, you could get the right to transfer them to your partner who already accrued 30k and would thus get gold instead of silver)

- or to give LTPs some certificates (again, upgrade certs for example)

- or to allow LTPs to transform their wasted level miles into additional award miles every year (e.g in a year, a LTP member earned 100k level miles which serve no purpose and 200k award miles. At the end of the year he can convert the 'wasted' 100k level miles into a further 100k award miles (it doesn't need to be 1:1 conversion of course, so it would equally be possible to transform those into 50k extra award miles).

Dear All,

On Monday 11 June 2011, Jouy31 and myself had a short meeting with the Programme Rules Manager at Flying Blue. Our apologies for the delay.

Bolding mine.

That's a long delay ;)

Bolding mine.

That's a long delay ;)

Mea culpa. Mistake has been corrected!

Gajan

I certainly agree that the priority is to give Plats more advantages in addition to what gold's get. However, it is not absurd to think that Lifetime Plats should get more. There are two reasons for that. First, FFPs are supposed to reward loyalty. Long term loyalty is the best of all loyalties for any business. In fact, some airlines (e.g. KE) explicitly base benefit on lifelong loyalty as opposed to yearly loyalty. You are right that not needing to requalify is an important benefit but it does not necessarily mean no other benefit should be thought of (otherwise, one could similarly say: 'there is no need to give extra benefits to Platinums over golds because when you are platinum, you get the biggest benefit of all which is to start accruing towards lifetime status'). The second essential element is that at the risk of expressing a truism, not needing to requalify is only an advantage when you would not qualify in the first place. Many life time platinum members effectively continue to fly well over the 70000 miles a year that would make them qualify for platinum if they were not 'for life' already. In effect, these cumulated level miles are 'wasted'. So in that sense, it would conceivably make sense to create benefits that are meaningful to all LTP including those who continue to fly! Here are a few possibilities that could serve as specific LTP benefits:

- to give LTP a 'companion' gold card (after all, NL Amex Platinum members are given companion cards already even if they do not fly at all so not absurd to extend the benefit to LTP)

- or to allow them to 'offer' their yearly level miles to a companion (e.g., you are LTP, you flew 20k level miles, you could get the right to transfer them to your partner who already accrued 30k and would thus get gold instead of silver)

- or to give LTPs some certificates (again, upgrade certs for example)

- or to allow LTPs to transform their wasted level miles into additional award miles every year (e.g in a year, a LTP member earned 100k level miles which serve no purpose and 200k award miles. At the end of the year he can convert the 'wasted' 100k level miles into a further 100k award miles (it doesn't need to be 1:1 conversion of course, so it would equally be possible to transform those into 50k extra award miles).

Orbitmic, you raise a valid point. For discussion purposes it might be advised to split the discussion:

Extra benefits for PE;
Extra benefits for LTPE.

Firstly, many thanks to Gajan and Jouy31 for arranging this meeting, and providing these insightful minutes.

Some quick thoughts:

3. Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold Members
Don't devalue Gold: any differentiation should be achieved by improving the Platinum offering – not by degrading the Gold offering!

Blocked middle seat: As NB00 has said, when a flight is not entirely full, blocking an empty (middle) seat adjacent to Plats travelling in Y would be a welcome additional benefit, that would reward loyal frequent flyers without imposing any additional cost on the airline (other than adjusting the seat allocation system to accomplish such blocking). This could apply to all flights - I wouldn't limit it to just intra-European.

Flexibility in reservations: Although KLFlyerRalph has suggested this, I realise that FB airlines would be reluctant to undermine the commercial basis of their fare-classes, by allowing Plats to have significant additional flexibility on supposedly non-flexible or semi-flexible tickets. However, it should be possible to allow Plats some limited additional flexibility on restricted tickets, without removing the incentive for people to buy fully flexible tickets if their travel plans so require. For example, allowing Plats to change their reservation on the day of departure, to an earlier flight on the same day, regardless of the original ticket conditions (but perhaps subject to availability in the original booking class) would be a useful benefit, but would probably not act as a disincentive for anyone considering buying a full-fare ticket.

Reducing/waiving fees: Although, as noted above, I can understand that the FB airlines would be reluctant to significantly waive the penalty charges incorporated in semi-flex fare rules, it would be nice to waive, or at least reduce, some of the other fees that are around (eg: ticketing/CC fees; handling fees for supposedly 'free to change/cancel' tickets; fees for booking award tickets by phone/at the AMS FB desk; etc).

Selective use of free upgrades: Again, I understand that FB airlines may be reluctant to devalue their J products by ‘guaranteeing’ Plats travelling in Y ‘free’ upgrades on all flights, as this may dis-incentivise such passengers from purchasing J tickets. However, it seems that selective use of free upgrades could be used to reward Plats, without devaluing the J product, by for example:

Free upgrades in the event of significant IRROPS: As orbitmic has said, giving additional flexibility to Plats in the event of significant IRROPs would be very much appreciated. For example, giving Plats free upgrades (subject to availability) in such circumstances would ensure that such members felt appreciated by the airline, despite the disruption – but would not act as a dis-incentive for purchasing a J ticket (as no-one wants or expects IRROPS!)
Upgrade priority in the event of overbooking: as Goldorak and orbitmic have noted, the current criteria for prioritising upgrades in the event that Y is overbooked are somewhat unclear. It would be good to clearly prioritise loyal frequent flyers for such upgrades (eg: FB Plat, then FB Gold, then other ST E+, then FB Silver, then other ST E).
Free ‘system wide upgrade certificates’: I'd agree with orbitmic that it would be nice to give Plats some SWUs each year (I think DL does this?)
Increased availability of award upgrades: I've often found myself wanting to upgrade a Y class ticket, but been unable to do due to lack of availability in the Award booking class (even though there was space in other booking classes in Biz). It'd be nice to give Plats access to additional inventory for upgrades to Biz - and/or allow them to upgrade from a wider range of economy booking classes.


Late Check-In Deadlines: having been on the ramp with AF staff during the CDG DO, I have some appreciation for the complexity of getting a flight to depart on time – and hence the desire of airlines to get all passengers checked in as soon as possible! However, Plats are often very busy people, who are also very familiar with the airports they are travelling through (and have access to SkyPriority channels to speed their passage). So, it might be appropriate to offer Plats reduced minimum check-in times at appropriate airports.

Consistency Across FB Airlines: This is not specific to Plat/Gold differentiation, but it would be nice if, as far as possible, all benefits could be applied consistently across all FB airlines (ie: not just AF/KL, but also KQ, RO and UX - and SB).

2. Research into new award schedule for long-haul flights
While I can understand that in the current financial circumstances, it is necessary to have suggestions that are 'revenue neutral', I can't help thinking that the initial introduction of paid fuel surcharges on Award tickets (and the April Fools Day changes) were significantly 'revenue positive' for the airlines (at least in the short-term) and 'revenue negative' for frequent flyers. However, as orbitmic has said, there is a risk for airlines in taking a narrow or short-term view of what is revenue neutral or revenue positive, and in fact having a revenue negative result in the long run.

I think personally I'd prefer the suggestion to keep the current Award scheme, and simply add an option to pay the fuel surcharges using a (modest) number of miles. However, that said, I am also a great believer in keeping things simple, and so it might make sense to keep the intra-European and long-haul Award schemes as similar as possible. (But I'd be very hesitant to see a 50% increase in the cost of long-haul award tickets in Biz!)


2) Increase the Y fares that are eligible for upgrades to C (I used this a lot pre-FB when there were more possibilities for upgrading with miles).

Just to clarify (in case anyone from AF/KL is reading this), I assume you mean "increase the number of economy fare-classes that are eligible for upgrades to C" (NOT "increase the cost of any Y fares that are eligible for upgrades to C" !) :)

For Plat, would be nice to have a free Gold card for partner.

Let me add some of my thoughts. Some points have been mentioned several times and I will repeat them without explicitly acknowledging them.
Differentiation between Flying Blue Platinum and Gold Members
1) the additional PE benefits should not be viewed by FB team just as an improvement in recognition of PEs but also as motivation for GEs to become PEs - that would be a revenue positive way of framing the changes

2) there are several revenue neutral or slightly positive improvements -
A) blocking a seat next to you subject to space availability (huge benefit to PEs, costs a few lines of code in their software and education of agents)
B) clear specification of upgrade priority in case of overbooking
C) waiving booking fees for tickets that one cannot book online on af.dumb or klm.dumb (complicated multi segment trips, using various Skyteam partners, or including domestic trips on partners like DL, etc). PEs are more likely to fly these, but because of this fee, I use OTAs who can do it either for free or cheaper. If I could do it directly with AF/KL there would be no need for intermediaries and AF would not need to pay them commissions.
D) verbal (aka "DYKWIA") recognition - regular greeting by the purser/chef of the relevant cabin; announcement of the number of PEs, LTPEs, etc - ok might be difficult to make it a written benefit, but would be nice if not thoughtful.


3) Benefits that I would much appreciate and should not be that expensive
I) lounge access to DL Skyclubs on domestic US trips (not connected to same day international Skyteam flights). Skymiles members who have Skyclub membership is free for DMs, and there is a 33% money discount for PMs or they cab just pay measly 40,000 skymiles (sic!) pa. They are entitled to bring "Two guests or spouse and children under 21" to AF or KL lounges, which means they can bring all their children. So in a sense of reciprocity, I do not understand why FB PE could not get access without guests on US domestic flights!
II) all segment PEs would certainly welcome roll-over segments or segments on award tickets that are counted as a level flights.
III) upgrades in cases of IRROPS

4) revenue slightly negative benefits - let's dream
I) free a la carte meals
II) a few complimentary short haul upgrades (but not SWUs as they require expensive fares to begin with)
III) more KLM huisjes - two in WBC and one in Y @:-)
okay, quite boring dreams!

5) instead of focusing on one or two benefits, perhaps offering a basket from which PEs could choose might be a better way of approaching this decision. For instance I have no use for additional lounge guests - I rarely travel with family or companions, perhaps in a decade I might find it useful. I'm also not that interested in SWUs as I can imagine that AF will restrict it only to the highest fare buckets, but it might be very useful for others.

6) As for LTPE recognition, if they keep requalifying for at least gold, they should receive additional perks of perhaps more choices from a basket. If they do not requalify, then I do not see (yet) much need (although I understand the rationale behind the suggestions from fellow FTers)

I know, let's reduce the FB Gold benefits to match those of the current Silver benefits and in turn reduce the current silver to Ivory and finally, erh, get rid of Ivory all together...

This is how I see it:

Being Gold myself, I (of course) would not want to loose out on the current benefits I have through my FB status. Let's just remember that (I could imagine) FB Gold is targeted towards folks who pay for their own flights and many of these are reached by the current flown segment bucket and are a revenue group easily lost to other airlines should this be degraded. This in turn means that there must be something for these kind of PAX to want to stay with the airline instead of abandoning ship...

FB Platinum PAX is the group of FF who often have their flights paid by someone else and often hold other high level/status FF cards (I know, this is very generally speaking) so even though the benefits for the two groups are minimal in their difference's, they are in fact very important to the the airlines.

This said, I can understand that Plat holders wants a little extra, but at the end of the day, is it only because Gold card holders are breathing them in the necks with almost the same benefits bar the extra bonus earnings on miles?

I do agree that plat holders should get a few extra perks such as guest vouchers to the lounge as well as be the first in line when upgrades are concerned (yes, I know we all laugh at this as it is). I guess it also comes down to how many plats actually are out there (we'll never know for sure) for it to make it viable in a financial sense.

I am trying to wear AFKL shoes. The motivation for the FFP is to incentivize people to fly more in the future (not reward past loyalty). That sounds sad to say, but a business is a business and bygones are bygones.

I agree with Orbitmic that current Longhaul J awards are already more expensive than on most airlines, so any increase would be absurd. No need to get back to the discussion of burn/earn rates and the relative ease to earn miles in various programs. In my (strong) opinion, the burn/earn rate is very poor for my usual flight patterns. The mere fact that I can get with BAEC a RT J CX HKG-CDG for 120Km compared to AF 160Km is a huge factor (along with quality factor) to fly on OW and accumulate there. Further deterioration will be damaging for AFKL premium rev.

If AFKL truly wish to see how they can differentiate Gold and Plat, they should look at what BA is doing for Silver and Gold (although BAEC G is above PE). No need to reinvent again. Features that I like on BA (sometimes available to both Silver and Gold) is the more-systematic blocking of the middle seat, the advance seat selection in Y for European and domestic flights, the clearer upgrade system, the better lounges,...

Regarding PE for life from the viewpoint of AFKL, it is hard for me to understand why they should grant additional benefits. Reaching Plat for life is by itself an incentive that should induce more future revenues. The benefit is to be assured to keep all the benefits of PE even in years with less travel or after retirement. By itself it is a huge benefit that should induce active members to try to reach it by prioritizing flights on AFKL. Sadly, airlines are not in the business of rewarding past loyalty, they are forward looking.

I would suggest:
- moving OLCI from 30 hours before to 48 hours before
- lounge access irrespective of the airline flown

Plats:
- Please block that middle seat! It can't be that difficult given that many many other airlines do it already - in fact, some more intelligent out-stations already do it by intuition as being simply a good idea... and often asking at check-in if they could block the middle seat also works. Jus make it official and automatic!
- Companion Gold status - most of the time Mrs Fr flies with me and therefore has all the benefits anyway, so no cost there. Very occasionally she flies without (when I can find an excuse not to visit the in-laws) in which case a gold card would come in handy. Occasionally we travel with a friend and being able to get invite the friend to the lounge instead of Mrs Fr would be nice. The biggest benefit, would really be in (slightly) mitigating the strife many of us get at home from being away so much travelling so often!
- Lounge access even when not flying AF, wouldn't cost them much as most times when not flying AF we're not in a terminal with an AF lounge anyway...

LTPE:
- I'm there and I still travel a lot... Still enough each year to re-qualify Plat... One day (maybe soon) that will stop, I am a lot less "stressed" about qualifying levels now which is already a nice benefit! I don't think as an LTPE I deserve more benefits than a normal Plat - but... AF could still do something to still encourage me to give them as much of my business as possible (like one GUV per x flights)

Flexibility in reservations: Although KLFlyerRalph has suggested this, I realise that FB airlines would be reluctant to undermine the commercial basis of their fare-classes, by allowing Plats to have significant additional flexibility on supposedly non-flexible or semi-flexible tickets.


Note (and again, credit where credit is due, I'm mostly interpreting one of chrissxb's ideas) that additional flexibility does not have to be general greater flexibility. Suspension of regulations could be conceived on a 'voucher' system basis of trump cards. Imagine giving Golds 1 trump card a year and platinums 3 trump cards a year which would allow a one off suspension of regulations (e.g. you can use it to change a non-flexible ticket, or upgrade a ticket from non-eligible fare classes [although I also like the idea mentioned by KQ321 to allow Platinums to upgrade from more reservation classes generally], or cancel a ticket that was not meant to be cancellable, or change a changeable ticket when your original booking class was not available, etc...). This would not devalue reservation differentiations as it would be on a certificate basis but would allow controlled additional flexibility for top flyers (and also give FB's "own customers" a reason to fly FB "own airlines" further, and give them rights which fellow ST members do not have, two things which are more or less not the case right now)

This said, I can understand that Plat holders wants a little extra, but at the end of the day, is it only because Gold card holders are breathing them in the necks with almost the same benefits bar the extra bonus earnings on miles?

No it's not. It is because as you say, many FB Plats effectively have multiple top tier cards and can therefore compare benefits, and as brunos mentioned, it is too easy to pick a winner for comfort. Being top tier on FB is simply underwhelming as compared to being top tier on LH or BA. Having multiple top tier status does not mean that you randomly choose who you fly with, and for many people it means more choice. I genuinely wish I flew AF more than I currently do but in truth, I am not really given many reasons to. Having just completed another great long haul J trip with DL (outbound) and AZ (inbound), I can confirm that not only are the two products vastly superior (something FB can do nothing about and with the proviso I was on flat bed flights with both airlines) but the benefits are exactly the same as when I fly AF or KL's own flights. A few weeks ago it was BA, and that time, it meant far greater benefits (such as being able to assign seats which no non-gold can, access to F lounges in every place, ability to upgrade to first from the cheapest business bucket which was cheaper than AF Z and for far fewer miles -- in fact for fewer miles than what it now takes to get the mere 'F airport experience' with the new AF offer, etc).

So no, I have nothing against golds and don't mind them 'breathing in my neck' but I just think that top tier on FB is simply uncompetitive per se. I would not mind further benefits for gold members too but pragmatically, considering the relative ease of segment qualification to gold and current financial restrictions, I doubt FB will go for a vastly sweeping improvement of elite plus benefits and starting with Platinums would not strike me as illegitimate.

Last point, the two issues (new award structure and further top tier benefits) are not unrelated. I said it before and will say it again, elite members are far more likely to book front classes awards than non-elites. Therefore, the choice to make Y award more affordable by making C award more expensive is, in practice, a strategic decision that explicitly sacrificed top members for the benefit of less frequent ones. It does not matter much on short haul, but on long haul, I do think that it would be a highly consequential decision. If FB decide to make long haul J more expensive (a la short haul) to get rid of fuel surcharge while keeping Y at the same price, they must realise that it strategically says: 'I'd rather sacrifice my top flyers to be more attractive to my least frequent flyers' because in practice, this is most literally what it will mean.

I agree with pretty much all that has been said here. The FB programme has become so uncompetive recently. We have well over a million miles sat around. BA does the Amex companion voucher scheme; upgrades from even cheap C class fares are reasonable, Miles and More companion redemption fares and upgrade vouchers ever year if a Senator are attractive. Alot of earning rates are pawltry if flying economy.

I was also thinking of lounge access irrespective of airline flown. But wouldn't that mean even more busy lounges thus deteriorating the product? (some even want a seperate lounge)
I have the feeling that there are more FBPE than BA Gold or am I wrong?

Features that I like on BA (sometimes available to both Silver and Gold) is the more-systematic blocking of the middle seat,

Do you mean in the Club Europe cabin?

Because BA certainly does not block the seat beside Elite members

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/692590-does-ba-block-middle-seats-elites.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1363866-space-available-blocking-neighbouring-seat-popular-not.html

I was also thinking of lounge access irrespective of airline flown. But wouldn't that mean even more busy lounges thus deteriorating the product? (some even want a seperate lounge)

A separate lounge is perhaps going a bit far...look at AMS, where they have reduced the number of lounges over the years.

The "Open Doors" concept was once a feature of the Flying Dutchman program, or so I learned here relatively recently, around the time that BA removed their equivalent policy for Golds.

It would be hard to see them re-introducing that. Am I right in thinking that, in some/most parts of CDG (for instance), you can only get at the lounge if you are on an AF flight anyway? I could never see it being brought back in AMS - given the layout, you can access the lounge from any part of the airport (except the low cost pier) so there would be the potential for huge numbers to swamp the lounge.

A separate lounge is perhaps going a bit far...look at AMS, where they have reduced the number of lounges over the years.

The "Open Doors" concept was once a feature of the Flying Dutchman program, or so I learned here relatively recently, around the time that BA removed their equivalent policy for Golds.

It would be hard to see them re-introducing that. Am I right in thinking that, in some/most parts of CDG (for instance), you can only get at the lounge if you are on an AF flight anyway? I could never see it being brought back in AMS - given the layout, you can access the lounge from any part of the airport (except the low cost pier) so there would be the potential for huge numbers to swamp the lounge.

The FD open doors policy was actually removed when FB was introduced (in 2005).

Oh yes, I know it was never part of Flying Blue. I came to FB via Fréquence Plus, not via Flying Dutchman.

Oh yes, I know it was never part of Flying Blue. I came to FB via Fréquence Plus, not via Flying Dutchman.

I agree with you that it is unlikely that that will come back (specially as their main competitors have removed the benefit recently).

Gajan

I agree with you that it is unlikely that that will come back (specially as their main competitors have removed the benefit recently).

Gajan

It seems that Iberia is the only European airline that still offers lounge access to its top tier elites (plus one guest!) regardless of the airline with which they are travelling: Iberia Plus Platinum lounge access (http://www.iberia.com/OneToOne/v3/obsmenu.do?prgOid=536885082&tabId=5&menuId=11050000000000&menuRP=1&language=en&country=GB&market=GB&IS_ANONYMOUS=true#ancla8)

No it's not. It is because as you say, many FB Plats effectively have multiple top tier cards and can therefore compare benefits, and as brunos mentioned, it is too easy to pick a winner for comfort. Being top tier on FB is simply underwhelming as compared to being top tier on LH or BA. Having multiple top tier status does not mean that you randomly choose who you fly with, and for many people it means more choice. I genuinely wish I flew AF more than I currently do but in truth, I am not really given many reasons to. Having just completed another great long haul J trip with DL (outbound) and AZ (inbound), I can confirm that not only are the two products vastly superior (something FB can do nothing about and with the proviso I was on flat bed flights with both airlines) but the benefits are exactly the same as when I fly AF or KL's own flights. A few weeks ago it was BA, and that time, it meant far greater benefits (such as being able to assign seats which no non-gold can, access to F lounges in every place, ability to upgrade to first from the cheapest business bucket which was cheaper than AF Z and for far fewer miles -- in fact for fewer miles than what it now takes to get the mere 'F airport experience' with the new AF offer, etc).

So no, I have nothing against golds and don't mind them 'breathing in my neck' but I just think that top tier on FB is simply uncompetitive per se. I would not mind further benefits for gold members too but pragmatically, considering the relative ease of segment qualification to gold and current financial restrictions, I doubt FB will go for a vastly sweeping improvement of elite plus benefits and starting with Platinums would not strike me as illegitimate.

Last point, the two issues (new award structure and further top tier benefits) are not unrelated. I said it before and will say it again, elite members are far more likely to book front classes awards than non-elites. Therefore, the choice to make Y award more affordable by making C award more expensive is, in practice, a strategic decision that explicitly sacrificed top members for the benefit of less frequent ones. It does not matter much on short haul, but on long haul, I do think that it would be a highly consequential decision. If FB decide to make long haul J more expensive (a la short haul) to get rid of fuel surcharge while keeping Y at the same price, they must realise that it strategically says: 'I'd rather sacrifice my top flyers to be more attractive to my least frequent flyers' because in practice, this is most literally what it will mean.

As usual, you say it much better than I can ever say it. FB is not doing much for its high revenue pax, much much less than other programs. It is geared to those qualifying on Y segments and enjoying the lounge. Until AF adopts a systematic policy of trying to attract premium pax, including by its FFP, it can hardly complain to be losing extensive market share in premium cabins. Those who fly regularly in Y strongly enjoy the pleasure of being able to periodically upgrade (or get awards) in J. Those who fly regularly in J strongly enjoy the pleasure of being able to periodically upgrade (or get awards) in F. But that's impossible on AF. And everything in FB makes it unattractive to "top fleyrs" compared to other FFPs.
I am exhausted after twenty longhaul and regional segments for business purpose in the past two weeks and going to Phuket in C tomorrow :). I have sampled all alliances and really wonder why I would use AFKL or ST, except for DL excellent flat bed.
As orbitmic say, this is a strategic decision by AF, but then the new CEO should do something about it or stop complaining about the sad situation of its premium cabins.

Thanks for sharing with us............

As a US traveller, I harp back to the 'Good Old Days' (?) when Northwest was the significant partner., (at least with KL.) Perhaps very difficult, but I would like to see Delta, First Class, space available upgrades again, and again pressure applied to use Delta US Domestic lounges regardless, not just for their members, but for our own Premium passengers and Economy as well while travelling the States.
Perhaps this could be linked to 'Platinum Lifetime ' members only as a subtle difference ?
And one thing that has annoyed me this year is the number of reward seats avaialable to Delta members, but blocked out for Europe. There really should be more cooperation between Delta and KL/AF in my opinion.

I am exhausted after twenty longhaul and regional segments for business purpose in the past two weeks and going to Phuket in C tomorrow :). I have sampled all alliances and really wonder why I would use AFKL or ST, except for DL excellent flat bed.


Unfortunately they don't have a great network to Asia, but if it ever matches your itineraries and you haven't tried it yet, I would very strongly recommend you the new AZ J ("Magnifica"). This is even much better than DL (much more private, and same 1x2x1 config but on the width of a 772 or a 333 instead of DL's narrower 764s) and BA (much more space, much large screen, and a fuller mini-cabin feel), and has the strongest sense of privacy I have experienced on an airline in J thus far. Nearly all 772s and 330s are now equiped. Plus unlike BA and even more than on DL, the food in J is great. Simple but extremely fresh tasting, all plate served from the cooking tray by FAs who have clearly received proper waiting training, with a genuine Italian identity (focusing on two regions each trimester, which is indeed consistent with eating in Italy, which is very explicitly regiona) and very generous (typically, three antipasti, two cold and a hot, two types of pasta, a choice of two mains, three fresh vegetables and a salad, fruit, and dessert. Only the two mains are to choose from, all the rest is and-and if you want). This is simply a highly pleasurable experience. Short haul C food is also vastly superior to KL and even more AF and you get both personal video entertainment and a full bar. So here is your next reason to fly Skyteam from time to time! :) AZ is the living proof that when an airline on the verge of bankrupcy decides to straighten its act and strategically chooses to focus on recapturing premium passengers and to put the means to make it well, it can do so with resounidng success.

PS: Enjoy Phuket! :)

What is FB designed to do? Retain frequent AFKL flyers and reward them for their loyalty. Sorry, but I have been retained for >10 years, achieved LTPE but never felt rewarded for my loyalty.

Since my start in the old FD programme, what has been 'enhanced':
- no more open doors
- no more separate Royal Wing lounges at AMS
- no more European C classs (5 years of Europe Select, at least KL realized this mistake, but now they are removing the wardrobe) so why bother to upgrade or book an European C award?
- no more awards inclusive of YQ
- ridiculously unaffordable C to P upgrades on the very few AF flights that have P (I fly C long haul almost all the time)
- no more upgrades to US F on NW (oops, DL now)
On the positive:
-free Economy Comfort is a nice perk
-Lifetime Platinum and improved award availability. Lifetime Platinum so I won't have to requalify (so far I have had one paid AFKL flight this year!) and good availability to spend my miles.

For me FB or FD before was not the main factor: availability of flights where and when I want to go, plus comfort on long haul (and price, of course, as a third factor) are much more important.

For long haul, AFKL have nearly completely lost me, the grass is much greener with the likes of LX, BA, CX and SQ. Even LH gets my business because I can upgrade from their angled flat to F with vouchers.

So to come to the point in this rather long rant: what do I want to see improved?

Better recognition as Plat: someone who for years flew AFKL around 90-100 segments annually should get better treatment than someone who steps on board an AFKL plane for the first time. I often did not experience any distinction!

Additional Plat benefits: most have already been mentioned, but they include all the examples of benefits that the European competition (the likely benchmark) has. Upgrade vouchers a la bmi or LH, ASR on European Y flights a la BA, a middle tier lounge at home airports a la LH Senator or BA Galleries First lounges. Cash + miles awards a la bmi and BA. Middle seat blocking a la bmi or LH (but remember, do it consistently). And why not improved meals, bmi had the meal deal for gold's.

IRROPS: I have had my share and AFKL most of the time treated me well, but BA and LH/LX have treated me better. As an example, when a short haul BA flight to LHR went tech, they rebooked pax on the next BA flights. I and the other GCH were offered to rebook on the competitor flight leaving at the same time. In C. Enough said about feeling special and rewarded for loyalty.

And, probably wishful thinking, awards inclusive YQ at the current levels. That would be a real benefit and genuine improvement (or, more cynically, bring the programme back to pre 2002 levels) and allow FB to claw back lost ground.

Will all that be enough to bring me back to AFKL? Not until the hard product is improved. Specifically: flat C seats on long haul (and not by 2015 or so) and consistent enforcement of rules, such as priority boarding, no upgrades of F&F after doors close, etc.

I have to close by stating that I appreciate that AFKL/FB genuinely seek to improve the programme and reach out to the FT community. So how about an official rep here? Joanna from the bmi board will be out of a job in two days...

D) verbal (aka "DYKWIA") recognition - regular greeting by the purser/chef of the relevant cabin; announcement of the number of PEs, LTPEs, etc - ok might be difficult to make it a written benefit, but would be nice if not thoughtful.

Although this is nice, I'm not too fussed about it. I'm much more concerned about a level of recognition (and hence hopefully proactivity and flexibility) from customer service staff when dealing with IRROPs, delayed baggage, or other problems. As other people have probably said, one of the most important distinguishing factors between airlines is how they respond when things go wrong (not how they respond when everything is going normally.)


II) a few complimentary short haul upgrades (but not SWUs as they require expensive fares to begin with)
Who says that SWUs have to require expensive fares!? Surely for FB and AFKL, they can apply whatever rules they want? (And I would say that SWUs should come with no fare-class restrictions... :) )


III) more KLM huisjes - two in WBC and one in Y @:-)

Not sure it'd be practical to hand out huisjes to what would appear to be 'random' pax in Y; but an extra one in WBC would be nice.

Being Gold myself, I (of course) would not want to loose out on the current benefits I have through my FB status.

I think everyone here is saying that improving benefits for Plats should not be achieved by devaluing Gold...

- moving OLCI from 30 hours before to 48 hours before
Would it be technically feasible to do this for some pax, and not for others? (Do other airlines manage to differentiate OLCI in this way?)

Note (and again, credit where credit is due, I'm mostly interpreting one of chrissxb's ideas) that additional flexibility does not have to be general greater flexibility. Suspension of regulations could be conceived on a 'voucher' system basis of trump cards.

This sounds like a clever idea, for allowing additional flexibility without making "all tickets held by Plats fully flexible". I wonder if it would get quite complex to implement (a lot of agents would have to be trained in the system (ie: that holding a trump card means something which is not normally possible becomes possible, but only within certain limits); and FB would have to track how many trumps each member had used). However, it would certainly be nice if it could be implemented.

I was also thinking of lounge access irrespective of airline flown. But wouldn't that mean even more busy lounges thus deteriorating the product? (some even want a seperate lounge)
Unfortunately, given the current capacity constraints in many lounges, I would tend to agree that lounge access irrespective of airline flown is probably not viable.

Dear all,

Thank you all for your comments. Ideally, we would like to report back to Flying Blue by the end of this week.

If there are any pressing issues, we kindly request you to bring them forward.

Best,

Jouy31 & Gajan

II) a few complimentary short haul upgrades (but not SWUs as they require expensive fares to begin with)
Who says that SWUs have to require expensive fares!? Surely for FB and AFKL, they can apply whatever rules they want? (And I would say that SWUs should come with no fare-class restrictions... :) )

I certainly second that, but realistically if FB introduces something like SWUs, they will be attached to highest fares like DL does.




III) more KLM huisjes - two in WBC and one in Y @:-)

Not sure it'd be practical to hand out huisjes to what would appear to be 'random' pax in Y; but an extra one in WBC would be nice.

well Plats in Y usually sit in EC or in bulkhead seats, so it would not be that random! ;)

This sounds like a clever idea, for allowing additional flexibility without making "all tickets held by Plats fully flexible". I wonder if it would get quite complex to implement (a lot of agents would have to be trained in the system (ie: that holding a trump card means something which is not normally possible becomes possible, but only within certain limits); and FB would have to track how many trumps each member had used). However, it would certainly be nice if it could be implemented.


I don't think it would be that hard. You could have an MMB flexibility which would say 'use your trump card on this booking' and would be related to the FB account (either in general or you could have to choose the 'trump functionality' e.g. make the booking flexible, make the booking upgradeable, etc). It would basically work exactly like SWUs on airlines where they are used over the internet. Once the booking is 'trumped', either the ticket rules would be updated accordingly (I'm not a specialist but would imagine this can be done on a GDS, after all, this is in a way what airlines do in case of irrops) or the AF or KL agents would have an apparent instruction to suspend regulations on that booking (again, not unsimilar to the instructions that airlines put on GDS in case of advance notice Irrops). Now of course, AF and KL IT systems being what they are, maybe they would find it harder than it should be ;)

PS: like you totally not fussed about the 'verbal recognition'. I must admit I derive no pleasure whatsoever in being 'addressed by name' and in fact in cases when it seems artificial/commercial seems altogether unpleasant for me. I'm mostly keen on crew being courteous and smiling with everyone. I'd be equally not tempted to hear how many plats or ltp are on my flight, in fact if there are none other than myself and I saw some other people being upgraded I'd probably feel a bit frustrated! ;)

PPS: for the huisjes, it would seem easier to just send one to Plat members for xmas every year. Maybe the 'new one of the year'? BTW I've never understood why members in some countries seem to get presents every year while in other countries (hmm hmm...) we never do! :(

PPPS: BA and formerly BD (even more so) are/were very good at organising special events for top tier members in various cities/regions on an occasional basis. I was invited to a Thames cruise with BD's CEO, received some free tickets to some food and wine festivals, etc. Could be an easy way for AF-KL to 'connect' to top passengers (and in some cases to showcase AF or KL sponsored events!)

Just some comments about a few ideas which have been expressed in this thread :
- access to lounge when not flying AF/KL : frankly, I don't see this going anywhere. We have to keep in mind that the primary objective of any FFP is to give incentive to fly the airline owning this FFP. Here we are suggesting that AF/KL should spend money to welcome us in their lounge if we fly another airline ? I know this exists in a very few cases for other airlines, but this is becoming extremely rare and knowing the financial condition of AF right now, this is going nowhere IMO
- adding an additional tier in FB for more recognition :I also don't think it will bring anything as we are already discussing here about how to improve recognition of plat vs gold members. And if they add another tier, then we'll discuss in a few years about another higher one for the "top of the top" ? I think this is too much looking like Gilette razors when every 2 years they add another extra blade for a so-called better shaving experience :rolleyes:
- better differentiation between gold and plat and need for additional benefits/recognition for LTPE : of course, there should be no downgrading of benefits of gold members. I think we all are in agreements on this. Regarding LTPE, I understand what has been expressed by some very valuable members of this forum saying that LTPE have already the best benefit ever of the programme. Although this is true, I strongly believe it's not a reason to not give extra benefits to pax who showed a very long loyalty at the top tier f the programme. The reason is that, when you achieve LTPE, you will have basically 2 categories of pax : the one that continues to fly a lot on AF (I am among these ones, as I fly 150-160 qualifying miles every year, even after I achieved LTPE) but of course that has slightly less "pressure" to fly AF because whatever happens, you are still plat. The 2nd category is the pax who will stop or fly less AF after having achieved LTPE. And what is the interest of AF with LTPE ? Of course, it is their interest that they continue to fly AF a lot and if possible in high revenue fares (full fare Y, PV, J, P). So providing extra benefits and recognition to LTPE vs "regular plat" is clearly in the interest of AF, as it gives extra incentives to continue to fly them while you could basically stop to fly them and not care anymore. My friend Cupart has also written that plat and LTPE members is a population with tickets paid mostly by another person (company), so it's not necessarily useful to provide extra benefits. Although, this is true that some tickets are paid by a company, this applies also to many gold members and many plat members are also paying a lot of personal tickets on AF in addition to their company business trips (I'm one of those). So whoever is paying the ticket, it's the FB member who is flying and has partial to full power to choose the airline he is flying, and this choice is heavily influenced by the benefits provided by the FFP.

I think key additional benefits for Platinum could be:
* A dedicated line not only for reservations but also for customer service issues, delayed baggage, etc (like for most US airlines), so PEs can be taken care of when things go wrong.
* I don't see why separate lounges are not possible, at least in some airports. In AMS they could make a special section in the lounge. In CDG they might give access to the F class lounge.
* Upgrades. In US they upgrade people easily. In Europe they don't, but some airlines (even AZ !) have upgrade vouchers. PEs could hence get upgrades, whether regularly, or a certain number of vouchers per year.
* When seating in Economy Comfort for free, it woud be good to also have your companions there for free.
* Waivers for some penalties for changes and cancellations (as done by many US airlines).
* More baggage allowance. Instead of one piece more, could be two pieces more.
* About the hujses, the Palace and Waag... Maybe get one at some point wether by post or other ?
* Maybe special alliances with hotels etc, to give top status automatically.

PS: like you totally not fussed about the 'verbal recognition'. I must admit I derive no pleasure whatsoever in being 'addressed by name' and in fact in cases when it seems artificial/commercial seems altogether unpleasant for me. I'm mostly keen on crew being courteous and smiling with everyone. I'd be equally not tempted to hear how many plats or ltp are on my flight, in fact if there are none other than myself and I saw some other people being upgraded I'd probably feel a bit frustrated! ;)


This reminds me of one of the few flights where the purser did go and greet all Elite+ pax personally. There were 8 of us, all in the first few rows of Y. The only non-Elite+ pax in those rows was rather puzzled why she was not welcomed on board by name...

Guess you can't have your cake and eat it....

I think key additional benefits for Platinum could be:
* When seating in Economy Comfort for free, it woud be good to also have your companions there for free.

It won't work: One person with PE status, family of four in total. That's then suddenly three additional seats lost to someone who actually hold PE.


* Maybe special alliances with hotels etc, to give top status automatically.

Doesn't this exist through Hilton and/or A-Club? At least they often have promotions giving away high tier status to Elite+ members. I know that some hotel chains should in theory give special perks to the top members of FB, but if this happens in real life is a different story...

Otherwise a decent list of improvements you have there welltravelled88.

* When seating in Economy Comfort for free, it woud be good to also have your companions there for free.


It won't work: One person with PE status, family of four in total. That's then suddenly three additional seats lost to someone who actually hold PE.


Delta gives up to 8 companions on the same reservation free access to EC, but I am sure that has more to do with United offering Economy Plus for up to 8 people on the same reservation.

It would be nice if they would offer it to at least one companion.

Gajan

- access to lounge when not flying AF/KL : frankly, I don't see this going anywhere. We have to keep in mind that the primary objective of any FFP is to give incentive to fly the airline owning this FFP. Here we are suggesting that AF/KL should spend money to welcome us in their lounge if we fly another airline ?

On the particular flight where a member is not flying AFKL, yes, you're right. But don't forget that we are talking about us Platinum members - it takes a lot of flying and money to become Plat! This benefit would be a further incentive to "aim for plat" instead of stopping at gold....


The reason is that, when you achieve LTPE, you will have basically 2 categories of pax : the one that continues to fly a lot on AF (I am among these ones, as I fly 150-160 qualifying miles every year, even after I achieved LTPE) but of course that has slightly less "pressure" to fly AF because whatever happens, you are still plat. The 2nd category is the pax who will stop or fly less AF after having achieved LTPE. And what is the interest of AF with LTPE ? Of course, it is their interest that they continue to fly AF a lot and if possible in high revenue fares (full fare Y, PV, J, P). So providing extra benefits and recognition to LTPE vs "regular plat" is clearly in the interest of AF, as it gives extra incentives to continue to fly them while you could basically stop to fly them and not care anymore.

I am one of the still flying LTPE's, because I have not changed my career simply because I acheived the LTPE status (although Mrs Fr thought it would be a good idea). However, I think you are overlooking that one of the objectives of LTPE is to set a goal for people to "strive" for in their flying patterns... It is probably not aimed at the people that have 10 years of plat - more at the people that have 5-6-7-8 years of Plat to make sure they keep flying and spending in order to hit the 10 year mark.

As for the 2nd category - well, if they don't fly AFKL it doesn't cost them anything...

One day I will move from category one to category two, and after decades of top tier status and loyalty and having lounge access I think I would be rather disappointed if all of a sudden when I travel less and only for leisure I am relegated to realm of the amateur travellers...

My friend Cupart has also written that plat and LTPE members is a population with tickets paid mostly by another person (company), so it's not necessarily useful to provide extra benefits. Although, this is true that some tickets are paid by a company, this applies also to many gold members and many plat members are also paying a lot of personal tickets on AF in addition to their company business trips (I'm one of those). So whoever is paying the ticket, it's the FB member who is flying and has partial to full power to choose the airline he is flying, and this choice is heavily influenced by the benefits provided by the FFP.

Agreed - who pays is not the question - it's who chooses.

Doesn't this exist through Hilton and/or A-Club? At least they often have promotions giving away high tier status to Elite+ members. I know that some hotel chains should in theory give special perks to the top members of FB, but if this happens in real life is a different story...


I've also had great status matches in the past from AFKL to Marriott and Accor - but it only lasts a year. Whilst a guaranteed Platinum status with Accor would be nice that lasts as long as youu are AFKL Plat, I don't see what's in it for the Hotel company?

Whilst a guaranteed Platinum status with Accor would be nice that lasts as long as youu are AFKL Plat, I don't see what's in it for the Hotel company?

Increased business?

They'd hope that at least some of these people would be more inclined to stay at their hotels as a result. The benefits associated with hotel programs typically only apply while you're staying in one of their properties - so it's not like they're going to lose any money giving you benefits. If you're getting the benefits, it means that you're giving them money.

Upgrade certificates for Elite (which you can use for yourself or for travelling companion) would certainly be a nice gesture, easy to implement and enticing customers to fly more with AF/KL (which is the purpose of a FFP).

Rules for using them should be flexible and simple.

Given AF's aversion for voluntarily upgrading PAX (other than GP, friends and family), I am not confident this idea will be well received.

* Maybe special alliances with hotels etc, to give top status automatically.

Doesn't this exist through Hilton and/or A-Club? At least they often have promotions giving away high tier status to Elite+ members. I know that some hotel chains should in theory give special perks to the top members of FB, but if this happens in real life is a different story...

It's my impression that it is not well known that Plats have have complimentary upgrades to the next room category subjext to availability with Global Hotel Alliance - e.g Kempinski or Omni Hotels. This benefit has worked very well for me :)
Obviously having it with a larger chain would be nice

One more thing you could suggest to FB.

FB Gold and Plat can have one guest with them in the lounge.

However, it appears that access to Sky Priority is restricted to the FB member only (some airport staff enforce it, some don't).

This means that if you are travelling with your best half or friend, then you are de facto denied the Sky Priority service (who would be rude enough to tell his/her travelling party "go through he huge queue for checking luggage and security while I go through the premium area").

Furthermore, it means that if you are in the same car, you have to arrive early enough for the least favoured Pax in the party.

If the lounge is land-side, then you have to leave the lounge earlier due to the longer queue for the non FB Elite Pax.

So I suggest that the "one guest" rule extends to Sky Priority services.

Award flights:

- Give the choice between cash or miles payment for the YQ is a good idea. Taking the insane YQ away and make reward tickets "free" again, like it was before, would be an even better one. Removing the YQ on awards would make me fly Skyteam whenever I have the chance, so I am not sure this would be revenue negative for the airlines!

- Increasing either the redemption levels or the YQ in ANY way would lead to me leaving the programme or at least reduce my AF/KL travelling to a strict minimum. We have been seeing increases of redemption levels on a monthly basis for a few years now (either through the miles or through the YQ) so I do not see the reason why levels need to be further increased. Fares for paid tickets have not increased in the same way.


Advantage for Plat members - of course, without "enhancing" the Gold benefits: this is really necessary, as FB Plat is a joke compared to other airlines. Some possibilities for improvements are:

- Companion award (would be a very well appreciated benefit). This is the reason why I still choose LH for most of my travelling. I am usually saving enough FB miles to make one or two long haul trips out of Amsterdam on connections that are not well served by LH (e.g. direct KL connections to Indonesia). If you are travelling with your partner it eases the pain of the insane YQ at least a little bit.

- Giving one (only one!) companion of plat members (same flights on same booking) on paid tickets also access to priority seating for free (eg KLM comfort seats) - would increase comfort without filling up the priority seating area by entire families of plat members.

- Priority with op-ups for platinum. Haven't had an upgrade in years, while before it happened much more often.

- Middle seat blocking

- Free gold card for partner

- Giving extra vouchers to plat members or lounge access irrespective of airline would lead to even more people in the lounges, so without corresponding increase of lounge capacity this is not preferred from my point of view.

One more thing you could suggest to FB.

FB Gold and Plat can have one guest with them in the lounge.

However, it appears that access to Sky Priority is restricted to the FB member only (some airport staff enforce it, some don't).

This means that if you are travelling with your best half or friend, then you are de facto denied the Sky Priority service (who would be rude enough to tell his/her travelling party "go through he huge queue for checking luggage and security while I go through the premium area").

Furthermore, it means that if you are in the same car, you have to arrive early enough for the least favoured Pax in the party.

If the lounge is land-side, then you have to leave the lounge earlier due to the longer queue for the non FB Elite Pax.

So I suggest that the "one guest" rule extends to Sky Priority services.

That would be confusing (at outstations/ with other airlines), no? SP is made to make things more clear; the same designated pax (=E+, C or F) have the same priority service around the world.

That would be confusing (at outstations/ with other airlines), no? SP is made to make things more clear; the same designated pax (=E+, C or F) have the same priority service around the world.

Maybe.

However, there must be ways to make it not confusing, such as have the "SkyPriority" logo printed on the boarding pass of the other party.

To do that, there should be a possibility to check in both passengers jointly when doing OLCI (I am not sure, but isn't it then case that upon OLCI, we are asked if there is another passenger travelling; maybe it is with another airline; am not sure)

It should not be too difficult to add the sky priority logo to the guest boarding card... Use a rubber stamp... Though I have never have trouble going through priority lines with companion travelers. A smile and "she (he) is with me " has always worked!

One the issue of upgrade, yes it would be nice to give more flexibility to plats.. I am flying tomorrow jnb Cdg in PE, thi king I could upgrade with points to biz... Well seems like I can't as I am on an A fare... I know if I want to fly biz I should pay for biz... Well this is company policy so not!

It should not be too difficult to add the sky priority logo to the guest boarding card... Use a rubber stamp... (...)!

Quite true!

Some stations have "Fast Track" stamps :) Just saw one used in HAM recently.

1) I think the most important thing is to set clear rules for upgrade, as United airlines do: it must not be Russian roulette...
Upgrade should be available automatically some days before, depending on your status, and class that you have paid.
The competition with low cost companies involved new rules for people that pay more money to fly with AF/KL. The loyalty program must be the big difference, and "new upgrade rules" the Graal for the company :)
As a frequent flyer, I am shocked with systematic upgrade for company members and/or their children before all paying passengers.

2) Platinum for life could earn 50% more miles than Platinum.(150% vs 100%)

3) First lounge access at CDG could also be facilitated at a reduced price for LTPE, even if they travel in economy.

Giving out 50% more miles is something that costs a lot, however most people would hardly notice it. I doubt FB would be willing to introduce something like that.

As for access to the First Class lounge I firmly believe people on Economy tickets should not be allowed access. In any case. The experience is supposed to be something extraordinary, and flying First would lose a big part of its appeal if masses with a LTPE card are allowed access.

(Sorry to be such a downer. I still believe that whatever we think of should be of the kind that does not cost the airline anything. Asking them to invest in any way other than perhaps a one-time training for crew is, i suspect, unrealistic. )

(Sorry to be such a downer. I still believe that whatever we think of should be of the kind that does not cost the airline anything. Asking them to invest in any way other than perhaps a one-time training for crew is, i suspect, unrealistic. )

I believe there is budget, but I am not sure the budget is of that magnitude to allow (LT)PE access to the La Premiere lounge.

With regards to access to the F lounge I can see the reasoning and this IMO is brought about by the poor offerings in the CDG/AMS lounges. I.e. BA and LH/LX/OS operate a three tier lounge system. It is quite odd there is no differentiation between Gold and Plat in terms of lounges.

I find the AF guest rules peculiar. I cannot guest in another pax who is on another ST flight, only the same one. This could be abolished for Platinum and make it like Star.

(Sorry to be such a downer. I still believe that whatever we think of should be of the kind that does not cost the airline anything. Asking them to invest in any way other than perhaps a one-time training for crew is, i suspect, unrealistic. )

I believe there is budget, but I am not sure the budget is of that magnitude to allow (LT)PE access to the La Premiere lounge.

@Xandrios - I do not think that you are a downer. Given what Gajan and Jouy31 wrote in the first post, many wishes in this thread seem to beyond AF-KL's financial strength.
@ Gajan - has there been any indication when the new benefits could be introduced? :)

@ Gajan - has there been any indication when the new benefits could be introduced? :)

I talked to FB today and review of the Platinum level is to commence shortly. Hence the reason to have all idea's in before the starting of next working week:)

Dear All,

On Monday 11 June 2012, Jouy31 and myself had a short meeting with the Programme Rules Manager at Flying Blue. ....

Jouy31 & Gajan


Thank you, both, for your noble work. Most informative. It just goes to show that when everyone on all sides of an ongoing discussion is decent and reasonable, then so too is the discussion.

Should one consider nominating this thread (of the regular consultations twixt pax and airline(s)) for a special prize in the constellation of FQTV prizes?

- Paul
entering my 14th year as C2, and still appreciative

I should specify that I am gold, so my point of view may not be the best to address the changes to platinum. However, here are a few ideas.

The Sky Priority for companions (for as many guests as one is allowed to take to the lounge, i.e. one currently) would be a welcome addition, as mentioned here and in another thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/flying-blue-air-france-klm-other-partners/1364048-sky-priority-companion.html).

I think reasonable (and not too expensive for FB) benefits for platinum may be:
1) Free access to lounge (and, possibly to SkyPriority) for the whole party traveling on the same booking (tipically, the whole family).
2) A few vouchers per year for upgrade to business, when available (I would say from any economy fare).
3) Maybe vouchers for first class lounge, but I have no idea of whether that is feasible.

I do not think that LTPE should systematically get better perks than Platinum (earning more, etc.). However, maybe one could think, as a nice present from FB when turning platinum for life, of one present such as one voucher for upgrade from business to first class (just once) for two people on a return trip. Maybe, but that may be too much, FB could award also one such voucher every two (or three) years to LTPE that have flown a lot in those years, to recognise their continued loyality evne after getting LTPE (also, to encourage them to keep flying SkyTeam).

Quite a few posts above mention suggested changes to Sky Priority. I think it is worth noting that Sky Priority is a Skyteam-wide policy, not an FB-specific one, so it seems to me unlikely that FB could unilaterally change SP rules.

However, of course, this does not prevent us from mentioning to them that we think the benefit should apply to a travel companion (or indeed check that this is not the case) so that they can perhaps discuss that with their ST partners as SP will undoubtedly be reviewed in the next few months as it is a new alliance policy.

For plat advantages what would makes me really happy while keeping my requirements reasonable is:
- Companion Gold card (or companion status upgrade ivory->silver, silver -> Gold, Gold -> Plat)
- Middle seat block if space permits
- A clear recognition of Plat status for operational upgrades
- OCLI sooner 6 hours in advance


LTPE vs PLAT
with the new rules in place since several years (miles earning reduced, no more Amex status miles etc) it is really much more difficult to reach LTPE. I will be LTPE next year but with my flying pattern if I would have started few years ago I would have never been able to make it.
Therefore LTPE being much more difficult to reach I think it would make sens to add a few perks to it in addition to the life time which is a real perk in it self.
what would make the most sens for me is a companion card. Achieving LTPE means being very often away from home and giving the privilege to a companion to have a few benefit when flying sounds reasonable to me.

what would make the most sens for me is a companion card. Achieving LTPE means being very often away from home and giving the privilege to a companion to have a few benefit when flying sounds reasonable to me.

I like your way to present it. In fact, if FB had a bit of a cheek, I could imagine the following message: "Dear Companion of Mr/Ms xxx, We have very much enjoyed all the time we have spent with your partner over the past 10 years but understand that you may have sometimes wondered if he/she was married to you or to us. As a token of our appreciation and promise that we never tried to replace you, may we offer you a Gold card who will enable you to enjoy for yourself some of the perks which we hope that your partner appreciated in our company over the years. Welcoming you into our midst... FB'

Basically all points I wanted to bring forward are already mentioned in previous comments. For me any further devaluation of the FB programme from this point would make me leave the programme. If the additional perk for Plat would include same status for companion, I might reconsider.

I like your way to present it. In fact, if FB had a bit of a cheek, I could imagine the following message: "Dear Companion of Mr/Ms xxx, We have very much enjoyed all the time we have spent with your partner over the past 10 years but understand that you may have sometimes wondered if he/she was married to you or to us. As a token of our appreciation and promise that we never tried to replace you, may we offer you a Gold card who will enable you to enjoy for yourself some of the perks which we hope that your partner appreciated in our company over the years. Welcoming you into our midst... FB'

Love it - they should just sign "Hugs and Kisses" (and hire the gang from Diamond Club)

Love it - they should just sign "Hugs and Kisses" (and hire the gang from Diamond Club)

Ah ah, yes I like xoxo at the end! :D -- and yes, I'd love FB to hire the DC lot. They had definitely put together a great FFP.

Most of the points that I am interested in have already been covered. My main focus would be more about streamlining the programme than introducing sweeping changes. Most important would be:

- protect award availability for Air France/KLM Elite+ members vs members from US-based FFPs
- SkyPriority for companions of Elite+ members for AF-operated fligts; actually, I have always benefited from this at AF hubs when it had no name and when it was labelled in a quaint fashion by ADP "Accès n°1". I can't see how an enhancement offer could result in cheapening my travel experience
- ensure that Air France/KLM Elite+ members are well taken care in case of irrops and for customer service (baggage delays, claims ....)
- start renovating Air France lounges worldwide; they are not bad, but many look dated

One item I would strongly disagree with is opening the La Premiere Lounge to Platinum members unconditionally. I would say the new offer is quite adequate and a good benefit for Platinum members vs other members.

Finally, if it is not possible to significantly differentiate benefits between Platinum and Gold members, just scrap the Platinum level. If Platinum does not offer anything meaningful, it is unneeded.

One item I would strongly disagree with is opening the La Premiere Lounge to Platinum members unconditionally. I would say the new offer is quite adequate and a good benefit for Platinum members vs other members.
I've never been anywhere near the La Premiere lounge, but I can understand the argument for keeping it exclusive. I'd rather see the effort spent on ensuring the regular business/E+ lounges are of sufficient quality and space.

Finally, if it is not possible to significantly differentiate benefits between Platinum and Gold members, just scrap the Platinum level. If Platinum does not offer anything meaningful, it is unneeded.
I'm not sure if you're just being provocative, but I hope that you're not, in any way, suggesting scrapping LTPE!? (Neither for people who already have it, nor for those who are earning their way towards it). Access to LTPE is obviously one clear distinction between Gold and Plat, and there are others as well (eg: free access to EC seating on KL is probably an important one for Plats flying in Y on KL).

Finally, if it is not possible to significantly differentiate benefits between Platinum and Gold members, just scrap the Platinum level. If Platinum does not offer anything meaningful, it is unneeded.

I wouldn't agree with that part. At the risk of sounding arrogant/self-serving, I do think that with my over 200k level miles last year much of which in high contribution classes, I 'objectively' represent a different level of flying than Mr Gold who has done 8 connecting returns in R class. I think the latter is definitely a frequent flyer and fully deserves gold and I think that gold is a relatively coherent level of benefit for Mr Gold. I think that the extra benefits I get over Mr Gold, while not entirely inexistant, are just a bit underwhelming and less than I get with the competition for similar flying patterns. Getting rid of Platinum would simply result in making the contrast between what I get with FB and what I'd get with others for the same level of flying even more massive. Or was it a rhetorical question, as we all know it is, indeed, perfectly possible to differentiate between Gold and Platinum (indeed, much has been offered in this thread on how this could be done) but the question is one of will and strategic focus.

I wouldn't agree with that part. At the risk of sounding arrogant/self-serving, I do think that with my over 200k level miles last year much of which in high contribution classes, I 'objectively' represent a different level of flying than Mr Gold who has done 8 connecting returns in R class.True but it is also true that you would 'objectively' represent a different level of flying than Mr small-Plat, with 15 connecting returns in R class or 70K miles, a different level of flying than Mr Medium-Plat with 110K miles last year, and Mr XL-Plat at 400K level miles last year is also at a different level of flying than you are.

Now, we could theoretically conceive an FF programme with as many rungs to the ladder as there are cells in the periodic table and make our way from Aluminimum to Scandium to Titanium To Vanadium, etc... but that would be unwieldy.

You are never going to design a viable system that will match the rungs to the variability of flying patterns and levels.

I would however agree with you that just two elite levels provides little flexibility and most programme have at least three of them. I am not sure, however, that the kind of benefit you can have with a third level would be commensurate to what somebody flying 200K level miles a year would find appropriate. At that level, you are in HON/GGL territory and you would really want a fourth level to allow for the relative personalisation that becomes possible at that level of flying.

Of course, I would not dream of removing the lifetime status, as it takes many years of continued loyalty to the FFP. I am just saying that I have had good recognition with FFPs that have two Elite levels and lackluster performance with FFPs that have four Elite levels. As a passenger (which is a different viewpoint from the FFP), I am more interested in the tangible benefits I receive than on the marketing exercice.

Platinum should get some "no fee" policy:
- no revenue ticket booking fee on AFKL by phone/internet/airport
- no credit card fee
- no reissue fee (like when booking through TA and changing through AF)
- no award booking fee by phone/airport
- no award change/cancel fee

Obviously that does not waive penalty charges on revenue tickets to change or cancel such non/semi flexible tickets.

Thank you all for comments ^.

I will be working a document for FB this weekend, so please get your comments in before Saturday end of day.

True but it is also true that you would 'objectively' represent a different level of flying than Mr small-Plat, with 15 connecting returns in R class or 70K miles, a different level of flying than Mr Medium-Plat with 110K miles last year, and Mr XL-Plat at 400K level miles last year is also at a different level of flying than you are.

Now, we could theoretically conceive an FF programme with as many rungs to the ladder as there are cells in the periodic table and make our way from Aluminimum to Scandium to Titanium To Vanadium, etc... but that would be unwieldy.

You are never going to design a viable system that will match the rungs to the variability of flying patterns and levels.

I would however agree with you that just two elite levels provides little flexibility and most programme have at least three of them. I am not sure, however, that the kind of benefit you can have with a third level would be commensurate to what somebody flying 200K level miles a year would find appropriate. At that level, you are in HON/GGL territory and you would really want a fourth level to allow for the relative personalisation that becomes possible at that level of flying.

Indeed, there are many variations in flying patterns, but that is the reason why I was refering to competition. As you said, HON is far more 'distinctive' than anything FB offers (I'd mention GGL too but what I heard from people who've reached it was not quite as positive). However, Platinum is the only level that has the potential to match, in principle, EC Gold or LH Sen. Removing it would make a second level - with far more members concerned - not having a relevant FB level either. I'm personally not in favour of FB creating an additional layer, largely because knowing their way of doing things I would suspect that they would be more likely to deprive Platinum of some benefits rather than genuinely create added value for the new tier. However, a 'simple' solution could be that they could discretionarily gift Club 2000 to some 'extreme flyers' (no need to publish anything but in short, Club 2000 is meant to mean VIP and it would not be absurd to considering someone who flies 400 or 500k miles in a year a true VIP for instance at least as much as some large company VP or an MP who may rarely or never fly AF or only on a few domestic segments). I'm not aware of FB doing that.

@JOUY31 I do agree with you that the numbers of levels per se is not what makes the difference, but if the sort of programmes you have in mind are Frequence Plus rouge or BD Gold, I think the issue is that the great level of care and service one used to get with these two (sorry I know BD Gold still 'exists' in its own idiosynchratic principle but you know what I mean!) was not due to the small number of levels in the programme but to the small number of people in the said category. At the time you and I were FP rouge, FP was only a fraction of what FB is today, Skyteam as an alliance was a far smaller operation than it is today, and the number of rouge was probably a tiny portion of what the contingent of FB Gold is today. what I mean here is that it is not levels for the sake of levels that matter but also - in part - for the sake of stratification and targeting benefits. Or, another way of putting it, the larger the programme, the more segmentation is needed based on sheer numbers.

I do not know the actual numbers of silver's, gold's, and platinum's. However, I would guess that the number of platinum members is probably at least 3 or 4x more important than the number of golds and the number of golds again at least 3 or 4x more important than the number of silvers. What this means is that if FB wanted to introduce a new benefit, if they do it for platinum and the cost is 100, if there was no platinum and the top tier was gold, the cost would probably be between 400 and 500 (100 + 3 or 4x100). Or the alternative would be to make gold harder to get which I think would be unfair and undesired.

Another argument against getting rid of platinum is related to your point on differentiating between FB FFers and fellow ST Elite Plus (you mention a specific point but I am mentioning the more general issue here). The thing is that Gold is skyteam elite plus and as this goes, there are typically an increasing number of benefits which by nature extend to all ST elite plus at the same time as gold. By contrast, Platinum is an FB idiosynchratic 'own' level and as such it is easier for FB to defend allocating extra privileges to that level without necessarily extending them to alliance partners, the same way DL extends some specific benefits to their own Platinum and Diamond medallion members which we do not get.

Anyway, I do think that FB often slaloms between two apparent values (corporatism and egalitarianism) which are either far less present or altogether more or less absent from most other FFPs and I am not personally sure that it helps the programme. I may be wrong but I also personally think that getting rid of Platinum would only be a further step towards this egalitarianism in practice while I suspect the programmes you have in mind had the exact opposite pattern (but again, in my personal guess because of numbers of people - not numbers of tiers - involved).

FB should also make much more effort to explain KLM / AF staff that we as Plats (golds etc) are VERY important customers. MOST have no idea what we spend (or are spend on) flying around the world. They only know the prices of their IPB tickets... :p

if the sort of programmes you have in mind are Frequence Plus rouge or BD Gold, I think the issue is that the great level of care and service one used to get with these two (sorry I know BD Gold still 'exists' in its own idiosynchratic principle but you know what I mean!) was not due to the small number of levels in the programme but to the small number of people in the said category. At the time you and I were FP rouge, FP was only a fraction of what FB is today, Skyteam as an alliance was a far smaller operation than it is today, and the number of rouge was probably a tiny portion of what the contingent of FB Gold is today.I agree. It is really a numbers game. If you want to have a semi-personalised service, you can do it at normal 2nd or 3rd rung level in small FFPs but you cannot do it at that level on large FFPs as there are just too many elite members. Whatever one thinks of the value of the perks of GGL or HON, that is basically the idea behind them: you place them high enough so that you have numbers with which you can manage a semi-personalised service. Things such as access to your true first class lounge, dedicated team to solve problems, etc... become possible.

You just cannot do that at FB Platinum level, though. You may well be right that a 4th level might not be the way forward for FB. But then let us not expect too much of Plat. There are things that could be done, such as SWUs, fee-waivers on some operations, etc... These things have a cost but are in line with what other comparable FFPs do. Given that the requirements for FB Platinum are rather higher than equivalent tiers in other FFPs (BA Gold, M&M SEN) given the earning structure on FB, if they cannot offer at least similar perks, you have to wonder whether AFKL really take their FFP as seriously as their competitors.

Here are my ideas of the additional benefits I would love to see for Platinum members (with some kind of decreasing order in my list below):

- x free upgrades per year (for self or companion).
- a clear recognition of Plat status for operational upgrades
- access to First Class Lounge. If all-the-time is not feasible, then why not x vouchers per year, or even with a special price
- special discount or specific soften rules for upgrades by miles to First
- special discount or specific soften rules for upgrades by miles to Business
- x vouchers or special price for the new personalised services available at the airport ('first-class' fast track)
- an additional xxxxx miles as a gift every year
- taxi/limousine transport offered if flying in Business/First. (Emirates already offers this for all his Business/First customers. One can imagine that AF could offer it for his Business/First customers that are Platinum). One can also imagine that this could be offered only in France, or only in some foreign destinations, or only for the inbound or outbound...
- better recognition during the flight (For example, one can imagine that the flight attendant could bring one glass of wine from the upper cabin. It happened to me once, and I found it was a nice gesture)
- special gift offered for each long-haul trip, that could become a collection for Platinum frequent travelers, like the small houses offered in KLM in Business Class
- invites for special events in France or worldwide (even 2 seats for an avant-premiere movie in a theatre)
- x vouchers to business class lounge for friends (in addition of the 1 free invitee)
- Access to Business Class Lounge even while flying with another company (although I personally have the Priority Pass card)
- getting more tolerance if one luggage is heavier than 23kg or 32kg (and so avoid the very frustrating situation where one must transfer some things from one luggage to another one). Concretely, this may be applied by allowing 26kg and not 23, and 35 and not 32 (in addition of the additional piece of lugage that we already get)
- 'no fee' policy as described in other posts
- FB platinum of gold card for companion (I put it at the last rank in my opinion, since this already exists if FB Platinum + Amex AF Platinum)

Also, my personal opinion is that:
- the ultimate idea would be if we could be offered the choice in the specific privilege we can choose between few of them within a selection...
- LTPE should have more recognition that basic Platinum, especially if they do requalify (LTPE+P...)
- I would be personally happy to see an additional tier (Diamond?), like the HON from LH

Thanks very much Jouy31 & Gajan for relaying this request between FB and us.
Just to ensure what will be the next step (I guess it will not be the case, but it's likely my suspicious part of me that speaks here)...: I don't know for the other people that contributed to this thread, but as far as I am concerned, I would appreciate if my ideas could be shared to FB and not pre-filtered based on any suppositions that it's not technically feasible, or it doesn't make sense for their business, ot it's too complicated, or it's not really fair, or one imagines that it would decrease the value of the First class, or...
I think each and every idea developped by everybody in this thread should be transmitted to FB, and let them to take care of what makes sense or not and how this can be implemented.

In my own opinion and from reading the majority of posts, it is obvious that FB have to do something to differentiate the levels than at present. I do disagree on some of the posts with the expectation that LTPE is somehow more privileged than normal bog standard plats. I would imagine that to KLM/AF revenue personnel LTPE pax are classed as dead revenue having already guaranteed their membership till death (no pun intended) The trick is to keep people happy, as in all business and it is obvious the lack of clear distinction between gold and platinum is a big concern to many (especially if your plat it seems)

I'm personally not in favour of FB creating an additional layer,
I would also say that the current four levels in FB are sufficient. Linked to this, and some of the discussion above, I would also add that my comments in this thread (and I guess many other people's as well) are given in the context of the current qualifying thresholds. I wouldn't want to see the suggestions in this thread for differentiating between Gold and Plat being used as a justification for increasing the qualifying thresholds!

- an additional xxxxx miles as a gift every year
I am not sure whether it makes more sense to do this, or just increase the Plat award miles earning bonus (eg: 125% or 150%, rather than just 100%).

- taxi/limousine transport offered if flying in Business/First. (Emirates already offers this for all his Business/First customers. One can imagine that AF could offer it for his Business/First customers that are Platinum).
Personally, I'm really not fussed about limo transport - but I guess that's because my travel patterns are such that I generally wouldn't benefit from it. However, presumably it is attractive to some people - otherwise EK wouldn't do it. I guess that's where the suggestion to have a 'menu of additional benefits', which each pax can select from, comes in - as different benefits are of interest to different people. (However, having such a menu adds complexity - and hence presumably costs...)

- invites for special events in France or worldwide (even 2 seats for an avant-premiere movie in a theatre)
I once got invited to a pre-Christmas reception at a KQ outstation in Africa (I was working in that location at the time), which was very pleasant (if not to say slightly surreal...)

- getting more tolerance if one luggage is heavier than 23kg or 32kg (and so avoid the very frustrating situation where one must transfer some things from one luggage to another one). Concretely, this may be applied by allowing 26kg and not 23, and 35 and not 32 (in addition of the additional piece of lugage that we already get)
This is a very good point. To be fair, I've generally found AF/KL/KQ/DL staff to be fairly tolerant when it comes to overweight bags (ie: a few kgs above 23kg). In some ways it'd be nice to know that such tolerance is a published (and hence claimable) benefit, rather than unpublished/discretionary. However, I guess if it was published, then people would interpret it as the maximum weight being increased, and then still push for flexibility above the higher weight.
I think the 32kg limit is set by some airports (or perhaps even some countries' health and safety regulations) so there may not be much chance to increase that limit.

Thanks very much Jouy31 & Gajan for relaying this request between FB and us.
+1

I agree. It is really a numbers game. If you want to have a semi-personalised service, you can do it at normal 2nd or 3rd rung level in small FFPs but you cannot do it at that level on large FFPs as there are just too many elite members. Whatever one thinks of the value of the perks of GGL or HON, that is basically the idea behind them: you place them high enough so that you have numbers with which you can manage a semi-personalised service. Things such as access to your true first class lounge, dedicated team to solve problems, etc... become possible.

You just cannot do that at FB Platinum level, though. You may well be right that a 4th level might not be the way forward for FB. But then let us not expect too much of Plat. There are things that could be done, such as SWUs, fee-waivers on some operations, etc... These things have a cost but are in line with what other comparable FFPs do. Given that the requirements for FB Platinum are rather higher than equivalent tiers in other FFPs (BA Gold, M&M SEN) given the earning structure on FB, if they cannot offer at least similar perks, you have to wonder whether AFKL really take their FFP as seriously as their competitors.

Totally agree! including the bit about HON/GGL level being all about semi-personalisation. I just personally don't think AF-KL are capable of it. If they were, indeed an additional level could make sense but my guess is that they would only make it a glorified plat which would be useless.

Luggage, excellent idea: when travelling in economy on skyteam for all elites: one additional free bag or increased allowance from 23 kg to 32 kg for one single bag. Platinum members on AF KL (DL AZ?) could be allowed a second extra bag (so 3 bags in Y).

Today I got a FB email. From now, PE members who fly C-class long-haul (except on long-haul flights where F-class exists) can use the F facilities at CDG for EUR 300.

Is this supposed to be a perk ? I was hoping they would allow PE to use F facilities anyway, ok, maybe I was too optimistic. So I thought, well, at least when flying C class, that would make sense: PEs in Y use the C lounge, and PEs in C use the F lounge, right ? But no... I am even doubful of the restriction that it should only apply when flying on flights without F-class. But what's more shocking: EUR 300 for it ?! That's not a perk, that's a way to get more money.

FB used to be the most generous programme in my view and that's why so many of us are loyal AF/KL customers. But frankly this is starting to change and I am starting to look elsewhere...

But frankly this is starting to change and I am starting to look elsewhere...

(bolding/colouring mine) - You and I don't have the same conception of chronology (or of starts) - where were you on 1 April 2009? ;)

I think FB may 'have' been a generous programme to start with but it did not last very long...

I do not know the actual numbers of silver's, gold's, and platinum's. However, I would guess that the number of platinum members is probably at least 3 or 4x more important than the number of golds and the number of golds again at least 3 or 4x more important than the number of silvers.
I would rather think that it is the opposite : the higher you get in the pyramid levels, the less members you have (Ivory members > silver > gold > plat > LTPE/Club 2000)

I would imagine that to KLM/AF revenue personnel LTPE pax are classed as dead revenue having already guaranteed their membership till death (no pun intended)
According to the discussion we had with FB and AF people during the CDG DO, it's not what they think (although this kind of LTPE profile exist of course). Many LTPE still fly a lot with AF/KL, and FB people during the DO were not against the principle to give more perks to this category of members.

As a special perk for Plats it would be nice to be able to carry over qualifying segments ( in excess of 60) as well to the following year.

(I understood from another thread that this might be exceptionally be the case for 2012 -2013, but a general rule would be very much appreciated).

Thanks for the useful thread.

+1 for the idea of carrying over qulifying segments above 60 for Platinum members. This would definitely be a nice perk.

One thing to keep in mind in regards to luggage: Bags over 32KG will always be refused. This has to do with certain laws on how much the loaders are allowed to lift or something like that. It's a limit imposed by the airport.

Allowing bags up to 32KG for elites in Y would be nice. Although personally, I pretty much never check a bag...and if I do it's for other reasons (liquids), and not weight. I don't think I have ever hit 23 KG..

I would rather think that it is the opposite : the higher you get in the pyramid levels, the less members you have (Ivory members > silver > gold > plat > LTPE/Club 2000)
.

Like Orbitmic, I am not so sure about Gold>Plat.
Plat is an "accumulation point". Meaning that anyone who qualifies above the Plat threshold will get Plat, whether it is 1% above the threshold or 100% or 300%. Taking the example of non-French members, Gold is between 40 and 70Km (or 30 and 60), while Plat is any number above that and I know members who clock several hundreds Km every year. Remember that they have already made it much more difficult for those qualifying on miles (April' Fool and AF Amex).

Frankly, with the very low qualification level for Plat (60 segments is so easily reached especially since domestic flights count for non-French), it is hard to see why AFKL would grant more perks. It would not be surprising if they raised the thresholds for Plat, especially on segments to accomodate some of the requests mentioned in this thread.

And it is quite funny to see the divide in this thread between the current Plat for life and the others. Current ones ask for more perks, while the others regard this status as inferior or equal to Plat.

Like Orbitmic, I am not so sure about Gold>Plat.
Plat is an "accumulation point". Meaning that anyone who qualifies above the Plat threshold will get Plat, whether it is 1% above the threshold or 100% or 300%. Taking the example of non-French members, Gold is between 40 and 70Km (or 30 and 60), while Plat is any number above that and I know members who clock several hundreds Km every year. Remember that they have already made it much more difficult for those qualifying on miles who had an AF Amex.
Like Goldorak, I would be very surprised if that were the case. FFPs normally have a pyramidal structure, with numbers diminishing as you go higher in the hierarchy. If FB is structured like an inverse pyramid, then they have done something massively wrong.

The fact that Plat is an accumulation point is not, in itself, significant. If you were to stratify ages, people "over 100" would use an accumulation point too. Yet, I am sure that you would find far more people in the 50 to 99 defined range than in the >100 range.

Or perhaps an even better example would be income. If you were to take "over £1 million" as your highest category, therefore the category with an accumulation point, the number of UK taxpayers falling within that category would be lower than the category just below of people earning £500000 to £999999. You can translate that to other locales with other currencies. My point, however, is that the "accumulation point" element has in itself relatively little significance when you are speaking of equations with asymptotic curves.

The fact that you know frequent flyers with several hundred km per year under their belt is also unreliable and a good reflection of anecdotal bias. I think it is fair to say that you tend to fly rather more than the average person found on an AF plane. Extrapolating from your own experience and that of people you know will tend to give you a skewed perception, as, on the whole, people we know tend to have experiences and consumption patters which are closer to us than the average person.

I would also add that the assumption that Plat is too easy to reach is, imo, problematic when you compare it to other FFPs. It may be easier than comparable FFPs for one particular category of flyers, namely those that rely on segments. On miles, however, the level is significantly more difficult to reach than other FFPs given the restrictive earning structure of FB in discounted premium classes.

I would not think that the counting of domestic segments for non-French residents is a huge factor either. I would have thought that relatively few non-French residents make extensive use of AF domestic services. There may be some people who are actually French resident but have a registered address with FB outside France for that reason. But I would be surprised if we were talking here of significant numbers.

And it is quite funny to see the divide in this thread between the current Plat for life and the others. Current ones ask for more perks, while the others regard this status as inferior or equal to Plat.

yes, we all have different expectations depending of our status, flying patterns, type of flights taken (short, medium or long-haul), usual class of travel, etc. And these expectations may change during our life time. That's what make this forum very nice and rich of various opinions :)

And it is quite funny to see the divide in this thread between the current Plat for life and the others. Current ones ask for more perks, while the others regard this status as inferior or equal to Plat.

yes, we all have different expectations depending of our status, flying patterns, type of flights taken (short, medium or long-haul), usual class of travel, etc. And these expectations may change during our life time. That's what make this forum very nice and rich of various opinions :)

As a many-years-left-to-LTPE Ihave no problem with giving LTPEs additional benefits provided they keep flying at t least beyond a gold level (see my comrehensive post early in this post)

I will give my brutally honest opinion again and must admit that at every level up on FB I have been left with a "well that was not what I was hoping for" I always imagined every level above me was treated better (in what way, please do not ask) But at this point I look at all levels and just thank God I do not have to queue at CDG immigration!

- protect award availability for Air France/KLM Elite+ members vs members from US-based FFPs
- SkyPriority for companions of Elite+ members for AF-operated fligts; actually, I have always benefited from this at AF hubs when it had no name and when it was labelled in a quaint fashion by ADP "Accès n°1".
- start renovating Air France lounges worldwide; they are not bad, but many look dated.

espcially protect award availability would be a great improvement... if I'm not mistaken Sky Miles members even get access to KL/AF award seat before we do..

Sky Priority for companions - also for KL-operated fligths as AMS is my home airport ;)

And AF should definuetly improve the TXL lounge (now that we have to use that airport till next year....)

As we will be working on preparing a document for FB now, we would like to thank you all for your key points.

Jouy31 & Gajan

I would rather think that it is the opposite : the higher you get in the pyramid levels, the less members you have (Ivory members > silver > gold > plat > LTPE/Club 2000)


Yes sorry I did mean the other way round! Thanks for noticing!! ^

Like Goldorak, I would be very surprised if that were the case. FFPs normally have a pyramidal structure, with numbers diminishing as you go higher in the hierarchy. If FB is structured like an inverse pyramid, then they have done something massively wrong.

The fact that Plat is an accumulation point is not, in itself, significant. If you were to stratify ages, people "over 100" would use an accumulation point too. Yet, I am sure that you would find far more people in the 50 to 99 defined range than in the >100 range.

Or perhaps an even better example would be income. If you were to take "over £1 million" as your highest category, therefore the category with an accumulation point, the number of UK taxpayers falling within that category would be lower than the category just below of people earning £500000 to £999999. You can translate that to other locales with other currencies. My point, however, is that the "accumulation point" element has in itself relatively little significance when you are speaking of equations with asymptotic curves.

The fact that you know frequent flyers with several hundred km per year under their belt is also unreliable and a good reflection of anecdotal bias. I think it is fair to say that you tend to fly rather more than the average person found on an AF plane. Extrapolating from your own experience and that of people you know will tend to give you a skewed perception, as, on the whole, people we know tend to have experiences and consumption patters which are closer to us than the average person.

I would also add that the assumption that Plat is too easy to reach is, imo, problematic when you compare it to other FFPs. It may be easier than comparable FFPs for one particular category of flyers, namely those that rely on segments. On miles, however, the level is significantly more difficult to reach than other FFPs given the restrictive earning structure of FB in discounted premium classes.

I would not think that the counting of domestic segments for non-French residents is a huge factor either. I would have thought that relatively few non-French residents make extensive use of AF domestic services. There may be some people who are actually French resident but have a registered address with FB outside France for that reason. But I would be surprised if we were talking here of significant numbers.

You age comparison is fun but a bit unfair. I would rather set Plat at the new French retirement age of 60 years. Are they more French between 40 and 60 or above 60?
of course, this is just a ;) as no comparison is of real interest, just the hard stats that AFKL will not release.

Regarding French domestic flights, I think that anyone who qualifies on segments is tempted by a non-French address. And many foreign residents do use domestic flights for business or (more often) for vacation. I am not saying that it is "huge factor" but it is certainly not negligible. And we have a few examples among regular posters.

I agree with you that the miles qualifying level for Plat has become harder and can be higher than in other FFPs.

OK, it is probably too late. But I just had today a beach discussion with a large group of French families at Sheik O. They all fly a lot from Asia to Paris and noticed that their opup rate has gone down drastically. Only one of them ever got the famous "paid upgrade email", none got an opup in 2012. Hence they assumed that this new feature apparently open to everyone, including (or prioritizing) infrequent flyers, other FFPs and awards, is highly detrimental to E+ members. This is a major drawback at a much higher level than a possible additional lounge voucher or some minor perks mentioned here.
I think that you should mention to AF that their increased revenues from paid upgrade is reducing a major benefit of E+ and that they should seriously reconsider their email allocation algorithm.
I am "forced" to fly AF biz to CDG this week, but this new nail in the coffin is another push to let my FB status drop.

You age comparison is fun but a bit unfair. I would rather set Plat at the new French retirement age of 60 years. Are they more French between 40 and 60 or above 60?
of course, this is just a ;) as no comparison is of real interest, just the hard stats that AFKL will not release.

Regarding French domestic flights, I think that anyone who qualifies on segments is tempted by a non-French address. And many foreign residents do use domestic flights for business or (more often) for vacation. I am not saying that it is "huge factor" but it is certainly not negligible. And we have a few examples among regular posters.

I agree with you that the miles qualifying level for Plat has become harder and can be higher than in other FFPs.

On your first point, I would just note that 60 is nearly 20 years below the average French life expectancy. 70,000 miles is not 20k below the average yearly FBer flight expectancy ;)

I'm also not too worried about the second point personally. It sounds a bit like the 'Euro cheat' argument that some regular posters on the BA board seems to be fond of. Personally and intuitively I have always tended to see it as a likely extremely marginal problem. The immense majority of the people I know in France would simply not be in a position to provide any address abroad. You are absolutely right that probably a few individual people may find it possible and worth their while to find a secondary address abroad while they mostly live in France and cash inon domestic segments they may use a lot, but I would be very surprised if we were talking about more than - literally - a few dozen people across the whole programme.

Finally, as stated before, I do agree with you both that there is a significant discrepency in the ease to qualify by segments vs miles. The above-threshold transfer of level miles may help slightly but will still not completely cancel out this discrepency.

I do accept that we don't have hard date and thus my pyramidal assumption is unverifiable but somehow, I do think that if there were twice more plats than golds we (I and some others) would have heard about it on some past occasions. I would be really surprised if it were so.

On your first point, I would just note that 60 is nearly 20 years below the average French life expectancy. 70,000 miles is not 20k below the average yearly FBer flight expectancy ;)

I'm also not too worried about the second point personally. It sounds a bit like the 'Euro cheat' argument that some regular posters on the BA board seems to be fond of. Personally and intuitively I have always tended to see it as a likely extremely marginal problem. The immense majority of the people I know in France would simply not be in a position to provide any address abroad. You are absolutely right that probably a few individual people may find it possible and worth their while to find a secondary address abroad while they mostly live in France and cash inon domestic segments they may use a lot, but I would be very surprised if we were talking about more than - literally - a few dozen people across the whole programme.

Finally, as stated before, I do agree with you both that there is a significant discrepency in the ease to qualify by segments vs miles. The above-threshold transfer of level miles may help slightly but will still not completely cancel out this discrepency.

I do accept that we don't have hard date and thus my pyramidal assumption is unverifiable but somehow, I do think that if there were twice more plats than golds we (I and some others) would have heard about it on some past occasions. I would be really surprised if it were so.

It was your post #71 that got me to find a logical explanation for your statement about the larger number of Plats than Gold :confused:
And now you attack me (<= that's a joke).

One piece of data is that there are a lot of Plats posting here and not so many Golds (like me now). But that is a biased sample and I have discovered that many posters tend to inflate their status as well as their frequency of lfying in F and J...

One piece of data is that there are a lot of Plats posting here and not so many Golds (like me now). But that is a biased sample and I have discovered that many posters tend to inflate their status as well as their frequency of lfying in F and J...

;)

As a rule of thumb, a frequent flier forum is more likely to attract the high-end flyer than the person who flies one off as he will more likely qualify for the benefits than the person who flies one or two trips a year.

It was your post #71 that got me to find a logical explanation for your statement about the larger number of Plats than Gold :confused:
And now you attack me (<= that's a joke).



But I did appreciate your supporting me even when I was wrong! ;) -- more seriously it is perfectly possible that you are right (I had just inverted categories in post 71 so meant the opposite of what I said! :( )

I fully agree with your fuller point. We did make a strong point in a recent meeting with AF that paid upgrades should absolutely be systemtatically offered to Platinum/Gold in priority (currently the system sends offers randomly), especially since it seemed likely that this would be offered a lot on flights that are overbooked at the back and with space at the front (ie flights which would be natural 'opup territory') and thus will implicitly deprive eligible pax from upgrading opportunities. I very much believe that the person in charge agreed with us that this would be a fair idea and did mention that they will migrate to a new automated system in the next couple of months for the upgrade offers (it is currently managed manually) so I would hope that this will be taken into account then and certainly intend to keep checking on it.

;)

As a rule of thumb, a frequent flier forum is more likely to attract the high-end flyer than the person who flies one off as he will more likely qualify for the benefits than the person who flies one or two trips a year.

I fully agree with you.

However, there is also an element of passion and dream in spending a large amount of time on such forum. Frequent flyers are extremely busy and tired, so it must be passion that motivates them. On the other hand, some of the posters (I am not necessarily referring to the FB forum) are primarily aviation-bugs/dreamers who hardly ever fly. And when their do, their only experience with premium cabins is during boarding.;)

If AF decides to implement a consistent and systematic opup policy (including from J to F as all other airlines), I will consider flying climbing back the status ladder when they install flat beds in J. But if they keep playing Russian roulette to try to attract new customers or keep favoring AF family/friends/staff, then...

However, there is also an element of passion and dream in spending a large amount of time on such forum. Frequent flyers are extremely busy and tired, so it must be passion that motivates them. On the other hand, some of the posters (I am not necessarily referring to the FB forum) are primarily aviation-bugs/dreamers who hardly ever fly. And when their do, their only experience with premium cabins is during boarding.;).

Ah that explains why the Y cabin has become over the years more and more crowded. All these dreamers board once and never leave the plane ;)

It is my impression/experience that AF does not send paid upgrade emails to Plats. However for KL it makes sense for WBC and my experience confirms that. As a PE you get EC for free and if KL wants to raise additional revenue X it is cheaper for me as a PE to pay X than someone who had already paid Y for EC (and Y < X) and assuming we both paid around the same for
the flight. Will such KL
behavior provide a disincentive for purchasing a WBC ticket? Depends on a previous purchase pattern and other factors. All I am saying is that T-30 KL does have more incentives than AF to extract additional revenue from PE passangers in Y.

It is my impression/experience that AF does not send paid upgrade emails to Plats.

They do send these upgrade e-mails to plats. I have a friend who is LTPE and received it once for an upgrade from PV to J on SFO-CDG. She accepted it but, at the end, was not selected but...at boarding was finally upgraded for free :D.
But, personally, I never received this kind of e-mails.

Is it too late to comment? Otherwise, here are a couple of ideas to differentiate Plats from Gold:

- reservation guarantee also for Business Class, including at popular travel dates
- blocked middle seat in Y (and adjacent seats in longhaul J) when plane isn't full
- pre-reservation of seat assignments also in European PE (maybe exists already) and Y, including domestic flights
- taking meal orders before other pax
- extending certain benefits to travel companions, such as overbooking/offloading protection
- allowing lounge acces with under-age family members
- allowing lounge anytime access
- companion bonus for award bookings
- definitive and transparent priority on upgrade list for op-ups
- "unbureaucratic" assistance in case of irreg ops

Most of these things do not cost any or not a lot of money but would be in line with the ambition to be attractive to premium flyers.

For those things that cost money: so they do. But AFKL expects us to spend more money with them as well, don't they?

Also, they could be revenue-generating. Take my case. With Paris as one of my two "operational bases" about 60% of my travel goes from/to Paris. AF only gets a very very small portion of that spend because of the perks of the FFP that make me chose other airlines not necessarily because they are always better in the air (e.g. Lufty intercontinental C class is quite terrible as well) but because my traveling with them is easier. Also, the same amount of travel gets me Platinum on AFKL but HON on LXLH with vastly superior benefits. So why go for Plat? Revamping the Plat benefits in combination with improving the product as announced may shift the balance slightly towards AFKL (although I wouldn't put my HON requalification at risk). That would be additional revenue for AFKL

As a LTPE, I shall happily and gratefully avail myself of any new perks that I find useful, but if KL want to see me back on their longhaul flights they had better install flatbed seats first. Their frequent flier program is of secondary importance, if that.

Johan

One last thing.... Am sitting outside the ram lounge in Casablanca using their wifi ... Just landed on af w premium, connecting on ram to Niamey in 4 hours. Ram lounge handles air france here, but will not let me in on incoming af transfer. They will though honor my flight and status when I come back through here in a few days time. So one perk for plats would be to not have hosmosis lounge access , but rather both ways... Dauberman a the lounge not helpful at all claiming this is an af pb.to sum up, arrival lounge access is all I want!

J

One last thing.... Am sitting outside the ram lounge in Casablanca using their wifi ... Just landed on af w premium, connecting on ram to Niamey in 4 hours. Ram lounge handles air france here, but will not let me in on incoming af transfer. They will though honor my flight and status when I come back through here in a few days time. So one perk for plats would be to not have hosmosis lounge access , but rather both ways... Dauberman a the lounge not helpful at all claiming this is an af pb.to sum up, arrival lounge access is all I want!

J

I don't see anything abnormal in the fact you can't enter AT lounge during this transit, as you a not flying AF (or have a AF coded-flight) for CMN-Niamey because AF doesn't code share with AT beyond CMN and AT is not part of Skyteam. As you said, on the way back, it's a different story, because you'll be about to board an AF flight and your status will allow you to have lounge access (only Skyteam elite + status will grant you lounge access in this case, because flying premium Eco only gives you lounge access in CDG and AMS).
What you are facing here is just following the rules, and those are the same for most airlines, AFAIK

I don't see anything abnormal in the fact you can't enter AT lounge during this transit, as you a not flying AF (or have a AF coded-flight) for CMN-Niamey because AF doesn't code share with AT beyond CMN and AT is not part of Skyteam. As you said, on the way back, it's a different story, because you'll be about to board an AF flight and your status will allow you to have lounge access (only Skyteam elite + status will grant you lounge access in this case, because flying premium Eco only gives you lounge access in CDG and AMS).
What you are facing here is just following the rules, and those are the same for most airlines, AFAIK

fully understand. just saying would be nice when exiting an AF flight in transit to access the lounge ( as plat perk) .

Ad those who added their comments on Sunday, we were able to incorporate these into the document we sent to Flying Blue today.

Flying Blue appreciated the assistance of the AF/KL/FB board of Flyertalk; Jouy31 and I appreciated the civil discussion:)

As soon as we receive any feedback we will share it here (no time frame has been given as yet).

Jouy31 & Gajan

I fully agree with you.

However, there is also an element of passion and dream in spending a large amount of time on such forum. Frequent flyers are extremely busy and tired, so it must be passion that motivates them. On the other hand, some of the posters (I am not necessarily referring to the FB forum) are primarily aviation-bugs/dreamers who hardly ever fly. And when their do, their only experience with premium cabins is during boarding.;)


I am not that sure. We would see a lot more people who idealizes the premium cabins in that case.

I was reflecting on this right now, as I was assessing my BA experience. The combination of very advantageous summer promotion plus status match through their purchase of BMI made me try them for my holiday. I was pointing the good and bad points, with mention that newspapers weren't offered on the European leg, that the flat bed was good but slightly cramped for me, and evaluating the quality of the meal offering... when I remembered boarding on LHR-LAX : lots of people exactly "from the general public" who crossed the Business class cabin on their way to the back. The comment were unanimously impressed (in several language) [most believed it was first class, but maybe it's an analogy with train terminology...]. Those are the one who hardly flight, dream about premium cabins, and would certainly be very happy. Totally different from the vibes I got from Flyertalk, where I guess my experience and reaction was more typical (even if I don't get grumpy when I don't get the exact seat I have located on a flight map, which is the step just after that).

I was just thinking, in the final months of bmi they made a real effort to recognise Gold (and maybe Silver) members onboard, ensuring everything is good. I personally noticed the difference in the attention the crew gave me. In all my flights on AF/KL I have NEVER been acknowledged or had any little benefit, as suggested before, perhaps another drink (not necessarily from a different cabin!) or a G&T etc

It seemed like they hardly use the PIL, has anyone seen what they say? Even my experiences on Lufthansa (while probably different to others on the M&M board) have been quite positive. Quite often on EDI-FRA with it being a longer flight, the purser came to ask if everything was alright.

My best experience to date since Plat was when travelling to CDG from FCO this Spring on my way to work in Lagos. The Business cabin was very light -/+10 pax (strange, as it is normally full of the usual suits) Anyway it was during the Rugby World Cup and I was wearing a team shirt, the FA invited me to the cockpit and I sat in the jumpseat chatting to the Capt and F/O on approach through the landing and to the terminal. Only the 3rd time its happened in 20 years and 1st since 9/11. It was a great touch and she never did explain why she chose me? I put it down to my rugged good looks and rugby frame, not to my Plat card! BTW I did not talk when the crew were occupied! The other pax must have thought I was AF crew going back home....

I was just thinking, in the final months of bmi they made a real effort to recognise Gold (and maybe Silver) members onboard, ensuring everything is good. I personally noticed the difference in the attention the crew gave me. In all my flights on AF/KL I have NEVER been acknowledged or had any little benefit, as suggested before, perhaps another drink (not necessarily from a different cabin!) or a G&T etc

It seemed like they hardly use the PIL, has anyone seen what they say? Even my experiences on Lufthansa (while probably different to others on the M&M board) have been quite positive. Quite often on EDI-FRA with it being a longer flight, the purser came to ask if everything was alright.

On my side, I've been greated many times on-board and been asked to not hesitate to give them comments, which I did a few times (and I know this was transmitted, as once I received a response letter from the customer service). But it's far from being a systematic attitude of course.

I am always greeted by name on CX, TG or SQ (the new norm) when I fly in Biz. I mean not only greeted after sitting down, but most often when served a meal. Even on regional CX flight in Y because if am OW Emerald. Even on DL, I am greeted by name in Biz (when sitting down and when served). And they come to ask for meal choice among the first ones because of my status in the alliance.
They did not do it on my last AF flight from HKG in biz.

Even on DL, I am greeted by name in Biz (when sitting down and when served). And they come to ask for meal choice among the first ones because of my status in the alliance.

I agree, DL is very good at this. KL is not doing bad also in J.

I am always greeted by name on CX, TG or SQ (the new norm) when I fly in Biz. I mean not only greeted after sitting down, but most often when served a meal. Even on regional CX flight in Y because if am OW Emerald. Even on DL, I am greeted by name in Biz (when sitting down and when served). And they come to ask for meal choice among the first ones because of my status in the alliance.
They did not do it on my last AF flight from HKG in biz.

I agree, DL is very good at this. KL is not doing bad also in J.

On my recent AF long haul in June I was seated in row 91 of the A380. Just before meal service was supposed to start, the cabin attendant came to me and said:
"Mr. Gajan, we see that you are a Platinum member and we would like to offer you first choice of meals, as you are seated towards the back of the cabin and your meal choice may not be available by time we reach you."^

The FB Gold member sitting next to me was not offered his choice of meal first.

In my opinion these small things can make a big difference.

I am always greeted by name on CX, TG or SQ (the new norm) when I fly in Biz. I mean not only greeted after sitting down, but most often when served a meal. Even on regional CX flight in Y because if am OW Emerald. Even on DL, I am greeted by name in Biz (when sitting down and when served). And they come to ask for meal choice among the first ones because of my status in the alliance.
They did not do it on my last AF flight from HKG in biz.

With KLM I am normally always greeted by name in WBC. A few weeks ago with my father... they where confused as they though the OLDER mister Guggenheimer was the plat elite.. but it was the young guy!

Hello All and Hel!o Gajan/Jouy31,

Hoping all goes well.

Sorry i arrive a bit late for the letter & discussion ;-)
It's excellent you do that , didn't knew :)
Looking forward to hear the news.

Just a random / odd question maybe for next time:
Wondered if with the new "modification fees" which went up quite a bit in eco and other classes if this couldn't one day lead to somehow earning "status miles"...

As many, from company policy, I can --on most european flights-- only travel in Eco (absolutely fine with me) and generally "modification with fees" category...
I guess i am not the only one changing -very- frequently ? (as cannot take fully flexible rates)

It is for instance frequent than on a "Q-H-K" (eco) i change 1 or 2... and this 2 or 3 times / month.

I was wondering if either status miles (on the modification fee) aka maybe 100 / 200 miles pro modification, on a year 10/20 times it can make a little bonus rather than nothing...

Or even better "flexibilty" condition for FB Plat or Gold (1 change free or whatever) would be excellent.

What would you and member see on this ?
Many thanks and have a good day,
Alex

On my recent AF long haul in June I was seated in row 91 of the A380. Just before meal service was supposed to start, the cabin attendant came to me and said:
"Mr. Gajan, we see that you are a Platinum member and we would like to offer you first choice of meals, as you are seated towards the back of the cabin and your meal choice may not be available by time we reach you."^


I must admit I couldn't care less about being greeted by name, but this, on the other hand, is a real and important benefit. Note that BA does it formally in J: FAs go and ask everyone for their meal choice in advance of service, compare choices to actual availability and formally have to give priority to their own (and later other OW) elites over 'regular' passengers in case there is a mismatch. It is of course harder to do in Y (where the service you received showed excellent initiative) but should be easy to implement in J. On AF, it has occasionally happened to me not to get my first choice of main when I wasn't able to secure front of cabin seats.

Any updates on possible tweaks ?

Any updates on possible tweaks ?

Sorry for the delayed response, my original post must not have posted.

We have been informed that certain improvements may be implemented in the shorter-term, but for other items more research may be required (i.e. implementation may take longer).

Sorry for the delayed response, my original post must not have posted.

We have been informed that certain improvements may be implemented in the shorter-term, but for other items more research may be required (i.e. implementation may take longer).

Err... right. Good to know that certain things in life happen before others ;)

Seriously: were the FB folks that evasive/vague or did they tell you more and you cannot disclose it?

Thanks for keeping up the link with them.

The word "improvements" always makes me very very nervous...

improvement is usually not too bad... the problematic wording is most often "enhancement based on customer feedback".