China - China HSR in California

Great news. HSR approved for CA.
China participation should expedite
the process.
Even if there is no CEQA ecemption doesn't matter.
They have a work around.

MOU (http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/assets/0/152/198/94697030-c981-45db-a815-7ef7b87184e3.pdf)

In plain English, please. ;)

In plain English, please. ;)

Xi wants HSR sold internationally
JB wants HSR in CA

BO gives seed money CH finances and builds it.

WinWin!:D

Chinese laying railroad tracks in California? Just old news, very very old ones. History repeating itself.

Chinese laying railroad tracks in California? Just old news, very very old ones. History repeating itself.

How else can they comply with CEQA?

A shovel doesn't leave much carbon footprint.

Chinese laying railroad tracks in California? Just old news, very very old ones. History repeating itself.
:D:D:D

HSR is a colossal waste of money in the U.S. outside the NE corridor. The reason is population density - people simply live far too dispersed across a very large geographic area. As long as driving is affordable Americans will continue to prefer a big backyard and 2400+ square foot house for raising kids - and keep in mind that U.S. has a far higher fertility than China and all other developed countries.

Having lived in both China and U.S. and raising kids as I speak, I can attest without a shred of doubt that a big house and a big yard is nicer for kids - no matter what the environ-wackos say in public (not to mention most of them continue to live in houses with big yards themselves)

Xi wants HSR sold internationally
JB wants HSR in CA

BO gives seed money CH finances and builds it.

WinWin!:D

In English please.

Having lived in both China and U.S. and raising kids as I speak, I can attest without a shred of doubt that a big house and a big yard is nicer for kids - no matter what the environ-wackos say in public (not to mention most of them continue to live in houses with big yards themselves)
Massive urban sprawl and 45+ minute drives to work/school aren't exactly ideal for raising children either. A big house and a big yard do not make a good place to raise kids, there's so much more than that. Of course I'd agree that the US is a better place to raise kids than China but big houses would be far down on my list of reasons why.

I personally think SFO-LAX is one of the few places outside the NE corridor that HSR would possibly be feasible in the US. With a growing population, it's unreasonable to continue to solely rely on air travel between SFO and LAX which are already stretched. Remember, Amtrak did not have even close to the ridership it has today on the NE corridor in the days before Acela. Only time will tell whether this HSR project is successful.

In English please.

Xi Jinping (presumed #2 in PRC after Nov) wants the trains sold
Jerry Brown (loser 2 time CA governor) wants trains as his legacy

Barack redistributes wealth to fund it; PRC finances and builds it

I think this is what it means.

Xi Jinping (presumed #2 in PRC after Nov) wants the trains sold
Jerry Brown (loser 2 time CA governor) wants trains as his legacy

Barack redistributes wealth to fund it; PRC finances and builds it

I think this is what it means.

Yeah, we got an offer you can't refuse (http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Xi+Jinping/Chinese+Vice+President+Attends+LA+Lakers+Game/2EzQKUfywnF).

I personally think SFO-LAX is one of the few places outside the NE corridor that HSR would possibly be feasible in the US. With a growing population, it's unreasonable to continue to solely rely on air travel between SFO and LAX which are already stretched. Remember, Amtrak did not have even close to the ridership it has today on the NE corridor in the days before Acela. Only time will tell whether this HSR project is successful.

Only if they can build the terminus all the way into the SF Peninsula, with BART access and no further away from SFO. And the Southern end has to go into LA Union Station. With the proposal to build it stretch by stretch in the Central Valley, the whole thing will bleed money equivalent to some countries' GDP for years until it reaches those terminals I mentioned.

I personally think SFO-LAX is one of the few places outside the NE corridor that HSR would possibly be feasible in the US. With a growing population, it's unreasonable to continue to solely rely on air travel between SFO and LAX which are already stretched. Remember, Amtrak did not have even close to the ridership it has today on the NE corridor in the days before Acela. Only time will tell whether this HSR project is successful.

How about a revival of the already once cancelled Tampa - Orlando - Miami-HS line?

Having my US based family in the area it would be so nice to get directly to MCO from the Space Coast instead of cumbersome car rides. (There are other airports closer but availability is sometimes an issue) Wouldn't hurt the tourism business either...

Only if they can build the terminus all the way into the SF Peninsula, with BART access and no further away from SFO. And the Southern end has to go into LA Union Station. With the proposal to build it stretch by stretch in the Central Valley, the whole thing will bleed money equivalent to some countries' GDP for years until it reaches those terminals I mentioned.

Even if it reaches LA Union Station and SF downtown, what then? There is not enough population density in those two cities to support sustainable rail travel between them.

Inter-city rail can compete successfully against air travel only when population density reaches a certain level. That's simply not going to happen in the U.S. until it reaches about 1.5B population (keep in mind that U.S. has more flat and arable land areas than China hence there more potential places to build new cities).

Even if it reaches LA Union Station and SF downtown, what then? There is not enough population density in those two cities to support sustainable rail travel between them.
If such a rail link magically appeared today and was genuinely high-speed, it would immediately command a large market share of the O&D traffic between SFO and LAX. We're not talking about a US-wide HSR network here, the issue here isn't ridership or population density, it's mainly to do with initial cost.

We're not talking about a US-wide HSR network here, the issue here isn't ridership or population density, it's mainly to do with initial cost.

Cost would not be an issue, 100 billion would be financed by the builder.
Issue is lawsuits involving CEQA which would halt construction. If not much
tunneling or overhead then GHG could be mitigated with hand labor.

No Diesel (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/04/08/business/08rail1/08rail1-articleLarge.jpg)

If not much
tunneling or overhead then GHG could be mitigated with hand labor.

Isn't that what Chinese do best though? ;)

Even if it reaches LA Union Station and SF downtown, what then? There is not enough population density in those two cities to support sustainable rail travel between them.

Inter-city rail can compete successfully against air travel only when population density reaches a certain level. That's simply not going to happen in the U.S. until it reaches about 1.5B population (keep in mind that U.S. has more flat and arable land areas than China hence there more potential places to build new cities).

I'd say that it would. SF is compact enough with good public transportation, and Union Station in LA is central enough in the basin - I'd assume there will be lots of rental cars available there, just like at LAX.

And, Lyon wasn't really THAT populous, was it? But that got the very successful TGV system started.

But actually, the bigger problem is distance. SF and LA are much further apart than NY-Boston or NY-DC. I don't know what travel time they're proposing now, but because of terrain, the actual route has to be quite a bit more than the 340 air miles. Even running at non-stop 180MPH, it still takes 2+ hours, while I think final operating trains will take at least 3. That makes flying competitive even with all the security and airport issues.

I don't know what travel time they're proposing now, but because of terrain, the actual route has to be quite a bit more than the 340 air miles. Even running at non-stop 180MPH, it still takes 2+ hours, .

SFO airport- LA Union Station
distance 418 miles
travel time 2 hr 27 mins

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/trip_planner.aspx

One of the issues lost in the shuffle is that the Chinese with their system, view it as much more than just a method of transportation for people. It's a pipeline for economic development, has national security implications, etc. In short, they framed the entire discussion and decision long ago to do an HSR rail system on more than just weighing options of planes vs trains vs buses vs cars. It is not a system that pays for itself, and I don't think any seriously-thinking Chinese official would ever acknowledge that it could. At least for the present and foreseeable future, it is massively subsidized for reasons the Chinese feel are worthwhile. One might be able to say that the Consumers of America have in recent years, helped fund a lot of this. (grin)

Whereas in the USA, every discussion I have heard on this issue is narrowly focused as the system purely as a transportation option, very little on benefits beyond moving a person from Point A to Point B. The cost issues assume that any system must pay for itself. Despite all evidence that elsewhere high-speed rail has been emplaced (Japan, Europe), there has never been a system that actually does cover all its operating costs. The capital costs are a separate issue.

Two different cultures, governments, and public opinion mindsets. Not sure if there is a "right" or "wrong" on this, but it is quite clear that the USA is falling behind China (and likely many more countries) in developing modern infrastructure. China currently has HSR stations and tracking under construction out in Gansu and Xinjiang....and those are hardly bastions of population density, particularly by Chinese standards.

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Chinese laying railroad tracks in California? Just old news, very very old ones. History repeating itself.

Only diff. This time: Ameircans laying the track and $$$$ goes to CN.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.1))



Only diff. This time: Ameircans laying the track and $$$$ goes to CN.

Due to the specialized nature of the construction and reduction of dust ppm would
need about 25,000 temporary work visas for Chinese labor.

Of course at prevailing wage...about 65 usd/hour.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlsr/pwd/Southern.html
How many US jobs created?...ah well none.

:)

State of California:
area 424 000 square km, including sparsely settled north and east;
population 37,7 millions
GDP (2010) 1936 milliard US$

Kingdom of Spain:
area 506 000 square km, including mountains, population centres rather more scattered around the country;
population 47,2 millions
GDP (2010) 1395 milliard US$

AVE network is 2665 km. 4 main lines, crossing difficult mountainous terrain.

Madrid-Barcelona line is 621 km long. It covers the distance in 2:38.

Airplanes? Madrid-Barcelona was the busiest route in the whole world!

So, how many km high speed lines does California need?

Two different cultures, governments, and public opinion mindsets. Not sure if there is a "right" or "wrong" on this, but it is quite clear that the USA is falling behind China (and likely many more countries) in developing modern infrastructure. China currently has HSR stations and tracking under construction out in Gansu and Xinjiang....and those are hardly bastions of population density, particularly by Chinese standards.
The thing is, there is no country in the world which has more commercial airports than the US. The average person in the US is more willing to pay $500 to travel around the country by air than the average person in China. In China the norm is to take a train which takes hours, sometimes days to reach the destination. China had a choice between more airport infrastructure and more rail infrastructure and they chose rail. This was the correct choice too, because we all know how congested all aspects of China's air travel network is. It's not like the US where any HSR network would have to compete directly with a very well-established airline industry.

It's not like the US where any HSR network would have to compete directly with a very well-established airline industry.

What's wrong with a very well functioning air transportation system? U.S has world's most efficient ATC system measured by flight operations per controller. It is also far ahead of most countries in efficient ATC procedures (how often do you encounter a holding pattern in the U.S, even arriving into a busy area such as NYC?) For its vast size and low population density, it is the right choice to develop air transportation vs. rail.

What's wrong with a very well functioning air transportation system?
Nothing. I never implied that a national HSR network would be feasible in the US because it wouldn't.

California has a higher population density than Spain, a country with both mature HSR and air transportation systems. Like SFO-LAX, the MAD-BCN route is one of the busiest domestic air routes in the world and the cities are a similar distance from each other. If it works in Spain where the major cities are spread out all over the country it should definitely be easier to make it work in California where the major cities could be pretty much connected by one line from SFO-SAN with a spur line to SMF.

Actually, that's a pretty good comparison between Spain and California.

Spain is a country.
California is a "state" of mind.

Disneyland
Hollywood
Dreamworks
I pod phone pad
Facebook

Its fantasy land...all make believe.

If Walt Disney can build a railroad around his Holmby Hills estate,
why can't Jerry?

http://carolwood.com/

I think the only way the Calif HSR will succeed is if it takes cars like Amtrak on the East Coast. Many drive and don't fly because of the need of rental on the other end.

The Calif HSR being "Chinese" or not, there's already a huge "Chinese" transportation system in the NE US. Even inter-borough NYC.

I think the only way the Calif HSR will succeed is if it takes cars like Amtrak on the East Coast. Many drive and don't fly because of the need of rental on the other end.

The Calif HSR being "Chinese" or not, there's already a huge "Chinese" transportation system in the NE US. Even inter-borough NYC.

Ah yes, the Chinatown buses, including the (in)famous Fung Wah. Most of the time they get you there in one piece. :D

Never going to happen here in CA.

1. Politics
2. Bankrupt state
3. Inefficient gov

Never going to happen here in CA.

1. Politics
2. Bankrupt state
3. Inefficient gov

Since the Chinese have no problem building roads and railroads and power plants across many countries in Africa, the conclusion must be.....

Since the Chinese have no problem building roads and railroads and power plants across many countries in Africa, the conclusion must be.....

If China offers to finance it and build it...and 70% of the project value flows to China...might not be a railroad to oil, but sure would put China HSR on
the intl map.

Some other choices which might spring to life if the Chinese can make SFO-LAX work...

Los Angeles-Las Vegas
Milwaukee-Chicago-St Louis
Dallas-Houston

Interestingly the Australians can get up to 160km/hour (100mi/hr) for at least part of the journey with a regional train Perth-Kalgoorlie. And I have been on the Spanish network Madrid-Toledo.

Speed and frequency at a reasonable price would create "the better mousetrap".

Happy wandering

Fred

If China offers to finance it and build it...and 70% of the project value flows to China...might not be a railroad to oil, but sure would put China HSR on
the intl map.

I actually believe this scenario has the best chance of actually playing out than anything else, but it's a few years away because there is enough local/regional demand to keep the companies that build this stuff busy for the foreseeable future. By 2017, I figure they will be pretty good at building railroads and all of the things that go along with them. Plus, they will be cash rich, and in need of new work. Any company that's willing to extend credit to Sudan can certainly take a gamble on the US (hit them at the federal level, not the state of California).

[QUOTE=moondog;18992625]I actually believe this scenario has the best chance of actually playing out than anything else, but it's a few years away QUOTE]

Chinese are buying up properties to construct the rolling stock in central California.

The project is going to be put up for bid. Duh, who will win the bid.:D

Its no longer an issue, Made in China, the general public is OK with
the US Olympic Team uniforms made in China, that's decent quality at
an affordable price, so goes the HSR.^