New York City - Underutilized Westside train line

After reading the thread (here)http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/new-york-city/1363611-jfk-manhattan.html, the long distance to get (via subway) from JFK to upper Manhattan, I did some "browsing" and noted that Amtrak uses trackage (between 10th and 11th Aves for part of the route) to go from Penn. Sta. to places like Albany. Why couldn't this line be utilized for mass transit operations. [In Wikipedia, it was noted that once(:p) stops were planned for 62nd and 125th St.]
NYC probably has lots of other lines which could (without spending billions of $) be used for mass transit.
PS: Paris France, on a pretty regular basis is adding new stuff to their transportation system (light rail, new metro stations, extending lines etc)--why is NYC/MTA, so slow in acting?

The MTA has a capital project called East Side Access to route some LIRR trains to Grand Central. This will free up room in Penn Station (which is at capacity), and the MTA is considering then routing some Metro-North trains into Penn Station, from the Hudson Line (these would use several miles of the track Amtrak uses to Albany) and the New Haven line (these would use several miles of the track Amtrak uses to Boston).

Here is what Wikipedia says about East Side Access:

The project's estimated cost has increased from $3 billion in 1998[citation needed] to $6.3 billion in 2006 and $8.4 billion in 2012.[5] Though construction work is ongoing, the completion date for the project has been continually pushed back by the MTA. Once planned to be operational by 2013, the MTA has pushed back the completion date several times, most recently to August 2019.[6][7][8][9] As for why the MTA can't get anything built on time or near budget, I don't know.

MTA is really not that smart or efficient. Why can't they use Metro North track into Grand Central when most people prefer Midtown to Penn Station?

As for the West Side, its probably used, what, 20 times a day? Two reasons it can't be used for mass transit right now is, its not electified, and there's single track over a moving bridge around Spyten Duyvil which would cause congestion. But could they modify it a bit and make it work? Yeah, probably.

Did you hear that when they built the double decker trains for LIRR they made them a bit too large so that they can't fit into some of the Queens/Manhattan tunnels? More stupidity.

Did you hear that when they built the double decker trains for LIRR they made them a bit too large so that they can't fit into some of the Queens/Manhattan tunnels? More stupidity.The double decker trains are also diesel engines. Diesel engines can't be used in the East River tunnel. The LIRR had to order diesels as much of the LiRR network isn't even electrified. I always thought that some of the trains had duel engines (electric and diesel). Not sure.

Did you hear that when they built the double decker trains for LIRR they made them a bit too large so that they can't fit into some of the Queens/Manhattan tunnels? More stupidity.

That sounds about right. Reminds me of a few years ago, when the MTA closed one of the staircases at 86th and Lex for repair. It took them 3+ years! One staircase!

And I'm sure it cost something to install the pretty mosaics, but couldn't they have used the money to clean and paint the stations instead? Every time I look at those tiles, I look two feet above them to the peeling, leaking ceiling that was last painted decades ago.

(Sorry...I needed to gripe this morning!)

After reading the thread (here)http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/new-york-city/1363611-jfk-manhattan.html, the long distance to get (via subway) from JFK to upper Manhattan, I did some "browsing" and noted that Amtrak uses trackage (between 10th and 11th Aves for part of the route) to go from Penn. Sta. to places like Albany. Why couldn't this line be utilized for mass transit operations. Does that somehow solve the problem of JFK being a bit of a distance from upper Manhattan?

North of midtown, the location of the line is such that it probably would not draw much traffic from the 1/2/3 trains on Broadway.

that last post actually gives me an idea for a rant that they could use it to go to LGA - if the MTA had any brains, they would actually get something for LGA already. Oh, and make EWR more accessible from Newark train station rather than the current system where there's one NJT train every 45 minutes or so.

Oh, and make EWR more accessible from Newark train station rather than the current system where there's one NJT train every 45 minutes or so.Every 45 minutes? My last trip, there were 3 options in a 20 minute window.

Doesn't it really depend on when you're traveling?

Did you hear that when they built the double decker trains for LIRR they made them a bit too large so that they can't fit into some of the Queens/Manhattan tunnels? More stupidity.That's not entirely true. There are a couple of double-decker trains that do go in/out of Penn Station every day. Such as the 5:09pm to Speonk/Montauk. Not sure why there aren't more, but perhaps it is more the diesel issue and this train has a dual diesel/electric engine whereas most of the double-deckers are diesel only?

Amtrak uses trackage (between 10th and 11th Aves for part of the route) to go from Penn. Sta. to places like Albany. Why couldn't this line be utilized for mass transit operations.

They did a full study back in 2000-02 proposing Metro-North usage of the Empire Connection, but results seem to have been put on the back burner. One proposal envisioned as many as 10 stops along Manhattan's West Side on the way to Penn Sta ^

http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/index.html

http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/psas/pdf/comp_results.pdf

--why is NYC/MTA, so slow in acting?

Next step is release of an environmental assessment in 2013, which is waiting on input from a "Penn Sta Operations Study". My guess is the proposal, ensnared by the confusion surrounding the future of Penn Station (the on-again, off-again Moynihan terminal, cancellation of ARC), was just forgotten. :(

Given how congested Penn Sta is, I don't think there's room for Metro-North to set up operations without a 4-way deal with Amtrak + NJT + LIRR, which requires clarity about who will be where at Penn. Plus the cost estimates from the 2002 study are outdated, which means another study...

Does that somehow solve the problem of JFK being a bit of a distance from upper Manhattan?

North of midtown, the location of the line is such that it probably would not draw much traffic from the 1/2/3 trains on Broadway.

No, it doesn't make the distance shorter, but (if things were done efficiently--an oxymoron when MTA is involved), the time could be less.
Utilizing this line, could be a prod for building housing closer to the water.

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that last post actually gives me an idea for a rant that they could use it to go to LGA - if the MTA had any brains, they would actually get something for LGA already. Oh, and make EWR more accessible from Newark train station rather than the current system where there's one NJT train every 45 minutes or so.

The MTA has long wanted to have a subway to LGA; Rudy Giuliani pushed for it, as have other elected officials. Local opposition in Queens has blocked it, along with other priorities for limited funding.

For the other post about "why can't the MTA go to Grand Central when people prefer it over Penn Station"- well, it does. The Amtrak line from Albany to NYC is the same line that Metro-North uses along the Hudson River. It splits just south of Riverdale, in the Bronx. So the only line that could go to either Penn Station or Grand Central, without about a 10-minute backup move, is the Metro-North Hudson Line.

Finally, for yet another post, Amtrak tracks cannot be used for things such as subways. The electrification systems, signaling, etc. are all different, and the Federal Railroad Administration has to approve these things- and it wouldn't. Subways and intercity passenger trains are apples and oranges.

PS: Paris France, on a pretty regular basis is adding new stuff to their transportation system (light rail, new metro stations, extending lines etc)--why is NYC/MTA, so slow in acting?



What a great point! In the past, several junkets, err, I mean government-funded study trips to Paris have brought us back such things as the Metro Card fare gate to replace the turnstile and the Muni Meter to replace the regular parking meter.

Tell the mayor I will volunteer my time pro bono to join such an all-expense paid trip and study these ideas. In fact, I am confident my French is much better than Bloomberg's Spanish. :D

oh, and while we're ranting about the MTA

How many years will it be before buses start accepting dollar bills? in what country can you not use the most common currency to board a bus?

oh, and while we're ranting about the MTA

How many years will it be before buses start accepting dollar bills? in what country can you not use the most common currency to board a bus?
Hopefully never. Waiting for people trying to feed bills into the machine is a huge time suck.

Hopefully never. Waiting for people trying to feed bills into the machine is a huge time suck.

I see people put dollar bills in the machines at CVS all the time, most recently a few minutes ago. I think the amount of time required to insert two bills is very minimal.

I see people put dollar bills in the machines at CVS all the time, most recently a few minutes ago. I think the amount of time required to insert two bills is very minimal.Except when there are 5 people waiting to insert bills, and even if 1 out of 5 gets rejected or takes 2 tries, the bus misses the light, and this process is repeated 8 times over a 50 block trip, and it turns a 15 minute ride into a 35 minute ride.

My grocery store also accepts bills at the 4 self-checkouts, but it's not nearly the bottleneck it turns into on public transit.

The double decker trains are also diesel engines. Diesel engines can't be used in the East River tunnel. The LIRR had to order diesels as much of the LiRR network isn't even electrified. I always thought that some of the trains had duel engines (electric and diesel). Not sure.

The problem is they don't have enough dual-mode locomotives.