Luxury Hotels - Ritz Carlton: dress code, etiquette, etc

I`ve stayed at some very nice hotels around the world, but I am a newbie to this chain. I`m wondering if there is a dress code while staying there? For breakfast, etc? How much do you tip a complimentary chauffeur? Do you always tip concierge? Will it be ok to wear jeans (I`ll be on a pleasure trip, and don`t feel like wearing anything else) Any other suggestions and tips to enjoy the stay at the most? My first Ritz is going to be in Washington, DC on 22nd St.
Thank you!

I`ve stayed at some very nice hotels around the world, but I am a newbie to this chain. I`m wondering if there is a dress code while staying there? For breakfast, etc? How much do you tip a complimentary chauffeur? Do you always tip concierge? Will it be ok to wear jeans (I`ll be on a pleasure trip, and don`t feel like wearing anything else) Any other suggestions and tips to enjoy the stay at the most? My first Ritz is going to be in Washington, DC on 22nd St.
Thank you!

It's a Ritz, not a palace. Common courtesy and respect are of course desirable. Particularly in the hospitality industry, where employees often have to deal with unreasonable or obstinate requests, a little kindness can go a long way.

Otherwise, jeans are more than fine. That particular hotel during the summer gets a lot of families, and you won't be out of place in casual clothing. Regarding the bar, we all have different standards for what we consider acceptable, but it suffices to say as long as a man has a collared shirt on, he's within the parameters of "smart casual."

You'll also get a number of opinions on tipping, but a few dollars to a driver depending on ease and length of the trip is a nice gesture. I don't usually tip concierges as they're decently well-paid and don't expect tips for normal requests (non-monetary gifts are also generally more appreciated), but $20 to a concierge if he/she helps you with a number of things over a multi-day stay seems fine.

It's a Ritz, not a palace. Common courtesy and respect are of course desirable. Particularly in the hospitality industry, where employees often have to deal with unreasonable or obstinate requests, a little kindness can go a long way.

Otherwise, jeans are more than fine. That particular hotel during the summer gets a lot of families, and you won't be out of place in casual clothing. Regarding the bar, we all have different standards for what we consider acceptable, but it suffices to say as long as a man has a collared shirt on, he's within the parameters of "smart casual."

You'll also get a number of opinions on tipping, but a few dollars to a driver depending on ease and length of the trip is a nice gesture. I don't usually tip concierges as they're decently well-paid and don't expect tips for normal requests (non-monetary gifts are also generally more appreciated), but $20 to a concierge if he/she helps you with a number of things over a multi-day stay seems fine.

Great! So I won`t feel a pressure of wearing jeans then (I am a female :p ), and some decent shirt.
As far as hospitality industry-this experience is for educational purpose also, as I am a future Hospitality leader, and in school we hear a lot about Ritz Carlton as a benchmark, so I am eager to experience their service firsthand and apply to my property.

A few Ritz Carltons may have been the benchmark long ago, but certainly since the chain was acquired by Marriott, that has ceased to be true. Overall I wouldn't categorize RC as the highest status luxury hotel chain. You have nothing to fear if you use ommon sense, no one will be checking that you are using the correct fork.

I usually tip a hotel complimentary chauffeur what the taxi fare would have been, but maybe I am being too generous. I only tip concierges if they do something significantly out of the ordinary for me. Just getting a restaurant reservation doesn't rise to that standard, for example, unless it is for an "impossible to get" restaurant.

A few Ritz Carltons may have been the benchmark long ago, but certainly since the chain was acquired by Marriott, that has ceased to be true.

Oh, what is the benchmark now then?

A few Ritz Carltons may have been the benchmark long ago, but certainly since the chain was acquired by Marriott, that has ceased to be true. Overall I wouldn't categorize RC as the highest status luxury hotel chain. You have nothing to fear if you use ommon sense, no one will be checking that you are using the correct fork.

I usually tip a hotel complimentary chauffeur what the taxi fare would have been, but maybe I am being too generous. I only tip concierges if they do something significantly out of the ordinary for me. Just getting a restaurant reservation doesn't rise to that standard, for example, unless it is for an "impossible to get" restaurant.

+1 - Agreed. Not sure that RC is anything particularly special anymore.

Oh, what is the benchmark now then?
Uhhhhh — THAT is actually a hard question and might start a flame war complete with spittle and froth, not unlike the discussions over in TravelBuzz.

I'll answer, but I need to ask "What variables do you want benchmarked?"

Great! So I won`t feel a pressure of wearing jeans then (I am a female :p ), and some decent shirt.
As far as hospitality industry-this experience is for educational purpose also, as I am a future Hospitality leader, and in school we hear a lot about Ritz Carlton as a benchmark, so I am eager to experience their service firsthand and apply to my property.
I work in high tech, so my uniform is jeans (505's) and a nice polo shirt. The only hotel that hassled me has been the Savoy in London. I couldn't even get across the lobby without attracting security.

PS — You'll hear this from many of us here, but I cannot think of an RC anywhere in the world that is a 'benchmark'. Who told you that again?

I'm a regular at the Ritz in DC. Shorts/Jeans are just fine. If you have any specific questions just ask.


Just like Mike I also got stopped by security at Savoy for wearing shorts!

PS — You'll hear this from many of us here, but I cannot think of an RC anywhere in the world that is a 'benchmark'. Who told you that again?

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, so several professors mentions RC as a top notch and a benchmark for Hospitality. RC is the only hotel received Malcolm Baldrige award twice. Maybe the legendary service is a history now, you guys know better since you can compare with what it used to be.


Update: While typing this message, I wanted to confirm that my reservation didn`t include package rate, and I would be receiving 30K bonus points (stay four nights-get that bonus) I called Reservation line, and a female had no idea what I was talking about, she was repeatedly saying "Uhm, uhm, uhm" which was kind of annoying and not as Ladies and Gentleman would have said. She couldn`t answer that question, so she transferred me to the Washington, DC hotel directly to front desk. Another female answered the phone like I called Motel 6, or maybe worse, with an attitude. She also had no idea, and said she`d transfer me to the front desk (apparently, I got transferred to wrong department). Patrick answered the phone, but he had no idea as well and was also kind of with an attitude (not as much as the second female). Then I said I was Gold and could not believe this is RC and nobody knew about the promotion or to confirm my reservation with that promotion- only after that he was apologetic.
I`m shocked. All my fairly- tale thoughts about magical service at RC have disappear. This is a service gap based on expectations and pretty bad Customer Service.

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, ....
I`m shocked. All my fairly-tale thoughts about magical service at RC have disappear.

LOL. Sounds like you just learned your first "real" lesson.... ;)

LOL. Sounds like you just learned your first "real" lesson.... ;)

Yes, indeed. There is no Santa Claus anymore...
:D

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, so several professors mentions RC as a top notch and a benchmark for Hospitality. RC is the only hotel received Malcolm Baldrige award twice. Maybe the legendary service is a history now, you guys know better since you can compare with what it used.
Didn't know that award was still around. Your profs are wrong, but you need to lie to them until you get the degree. You'll find clueless professors to be the norm and not the exception. The REAL world has a different set of rules.

I'll answer your original question:

PS -- For the benchmark question, try this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxury-hotels/1327385-hotel-not-missed.html


For leisure travel, the best chain or 'benchmark' by a wide margin is Aman. I'm at one now.

For business travel, my vote goes to FS.

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, so several professors mentions RC as a top notch and a benchmark for Hospitality. RC is the only hotel received Malcolm Baldrige award twice. Maybe the legendary service is a history now, you guys know better since you can compare with what it used to be.


You might point out to your professors that the Baldrige award is about efficiency of delivery, not about luxury service. Other companies that have been awarded this distinction include the PRO-TEC Coating Company, a leading provider of coated sheet steel to US auto manufacturers.

http://www.nist.gov/baldrige/publications/upload/PROTEC.pdf

While I don't want to sully Pro-Tec's reputation by associating them with Ritz Carlton ;), RC's winning the award twice 15+ years ago says little or anything about how the service experience will be at their Cleveland, Ohio, or Doha, Qatar locations today.

I`ve stayed at some very nice hotels around the world, but I am a newbie to this chain. I`m wondering if there is a dress code while staying there? For breakfast, etc? How much do you tip a complimentary chauffeur? Do you always tip concierge? Will it be ok to wear jeans (I`ll be on a pleasure trip, and don`t feel like wearing anything else) Any other suggestions and tips to enjoy the stay at the most? My first Ritz is going to be in Washington, DC on 22nd St.
Thank you!

Come and go as you please.

Perhaps in the fine dining restaurant at dinner you should turn it up a bit...but in general today luxury in most settings is about being comfortable.

Perhaps don't go in looking like this...
http://www.dailycognition.com/content/image/18/slob.jpg, but shorts or un-ripped/modestly ripped jeans are fine at any meal (other than fine dining dinner).

RC's winning the award twice 15+ years ago says little or anything about how the service experience will be at their Cleveland, Ohio, or Doha, Qatar locations today.


Most likely, this is the case, maybe at that time, it was a benchmark for the industry, but there is only an echo left nowadays... At least, I already received the negative experience :( Maybe I should book something different for less money now.

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, so several professors mentions RC as a top notch and a benchmark for Hospitality. RC is the only hotel received Malcolm Baldrige award twice. Maybe the legendary service is a history now, you guys know better since you can compare with what it used to be.


Update: While typing this message, I wanted to confirm that my reservation didn`t include package rate, and I would be receiving 30K bonus points (stay four nights-get that bonus) I called Reservation line, and a female had no idea what I was talking about, she was repeatedly saying "Uhm, uhm, uhm" which was kind of annoying and not as Ladies and Gentleman would have said. She couldn`t answer that question, so she transferred me to the Washington, DC hotel directly to front desk. Another female answered the phone like I called Motel 6, or maybe worse, with an attitude. She also had no idea, and said she`d transfer me to the front desk (apparently, I got transferred to wrong department). Patrick answered the phone, but he had no idea as well and was also kind of with an attitude (not as much as the second female). Then I said I was Gold and could not believe this is RC and nobody knew about the promotion or to confirm my reservation with that promotion- only after that he was apologetic.
I`m shocked. All my fairly- tale thoughts about magical service at RC have disappear. This is a service gap based on expectations and pretty bad Customer Service.


Have you ever stayed in any hotel in the United States before, or, better yet, just walked by a Ritz Carlton? Your expectations seem a little ridiculous--desiring good service is one thing, "magic" for a couple hundred bucks is a little unreal.

Have you ever stayed in any hotel in the United States before, or, better yet, just walked by a Ritz Carlton? Your expectations seem a little ridiculous--desiring good service is one thing, "magic" for a couple hundred bucks is a little unreal.

Have you read my post? Seems like not. Go back and read it before you write something ridiculous.

Uhhhhh — THAT is actually a hard question and might start a flame war complete with spittle and froth, not unlike the discussions over in TravelBuzz.

I'll answer, but I need to ask "What variables do you want benchmarked?"

Well, since we live in the experience economy, ambiance, level of service, and such are all would benchmarked.

Have you read my post? Seems like not. Go back and read it before you write something ridiculous.

As I provided the original reply to this post, yes, yes I did read what you had to say.

As I provided the original reply to this post, yes, yes I did read what you had to say.

Providing the quote doesn`t mean you comprehend the issue. Go back to my OP and read, that will give you answers to your questions on if I have stayed at RC, why my expectations so high, etc-it`s all there.

As long as something is not offensive or horrendously trashy, I don't care what other guests wear.

At the RC, San Francisco, it is not unusual to see folks at breakfast in the Club wearing their RC robes. Also, they wander through the Club in their robes in order to go down to the pool.

At the RC, San Francisco, it is not unusual to see folks at breakfast in the Club wearing their RC robes. Also, they wander through the Club in their robes in order to go down to the pool.

Awesome! So I`ll be under no pressure staying at the Club level :p

This is an interesting thread....sort of reminds me of the day (Austin's tech heyday) when some folks became quite wealthy. There used to be a small company called Vignette and when they had a staggeringly successful IPO, a number of folks became multimillionaires overnight. I know as I was and still am a friend of one of those folks. This guy could literally walk around with thousands in cash in the pockets...of his tye-dye shirts and holey jeans...with different shades of color in his hair....

One day he went into Austin's BMW dealer to buy a new (with cash) 7 Series. The snobs in the tweed, ties, silks,corduroy, etc would not even look at him, much less talk to him. Sad, since he took his money to a dealer about 60 miles north of Austin who was more interested in my friend's money than they were his appearance.

I have never been one to wear extra special clothes just so I can appease certain types of people. Considering the explosion of the young ultra rich, NO place should discriminate against anyone based solely on one's clothing...you never know, that "uncouth" man/woman in faded Levi's/decent shirt could easily be bloody filthy rich and could easily spread word of rude/hateful/snobby treatment by hotel staff around the world faster than one can turn on/off their iPhone....just mt $.02 worth..:)

Cheers,

Welcome to Flyertalk and the Luxury Hotels Forum, txbimmerfan
Thanks for a very thoughtful first post to this forum. Looking forward, with pleasure, to further contributions.
Obscure2k
Moderator
Luxury Hotels

I go to Hospitality College at one of Universities, so several professors mentions RC as a top notch and a benchmark for Hospitality. RC is the only hotel received Malcolm Baldrige award twice. Maybe the legendary service is a history now, you guys know better since you can compare with what it used to be.


Update: While typing this message, I wanted to confirm that my reservation didn`t include package rate, and I would be receiving 30K bonus points (stay four nights-get that bonus) I called Reservation line, and a female had no idea what I was talking about, she was repeatedly saying "Uhm, uhm, uhm" which was kind of annoying and not as Ladies and Gentleman would have said. She couldn`t answer that question, so she transferred me to the Washington, DC hotel directly to front desk. Another female answered the phone like I called Motel 6, or maybe worse, with an attitude. She also had no idea, and said she`d transfer me to the front desk (apparently, I got transferred to wrong department). Patrick answered the phone, but he had no idea as well and was also kind of with an attitude (not as much as the second female). Then I said I was Gold and could not believe this is RC and nobody knew about the promotion or to confirm my reservation with that promotion- only after that he was apologetic.
I`m shocked. All my fairly- tale thoughts about magical service at RC have disappear. This is a service gap based on expectations and pretty bad Customer Service.
So you're a student and you're RC Gold but you've never stayed in a RC? How can that be?

So you're a student and you're RC Gold but you've never stayed in a RC? How can that be?

http://www.ritzcarlton.com/en/Rewards/CreditCard.htm

So you're a student and you're RC Gold but you've never stayed in a RC? How can that be?

What would being a student have to do with hotel status? :confused:

R-C Rewards = Marriott Rewards, so one could have status and never set foot in a Ritz-Carlton.

So you're a student and you're RC Gold but you've never stayed in a RC? How can that be?

Because I am not a typical student :p This is my second degree, by choice, in an older and wiser age, and to get RC Gold status, you just need to apply for RC credit card with either 50K or 70K bonus points.

I have never been one to wear extra special clothes just so I can appease certain types of people,

This is not to appease certain types of people, but rather not to offend anybody. More of etiquette, if you wish. When I go to a foreign country, I always read about culture, learn some phrases in that language, etc. I do not expect everybody to speak English, the dress code is in that category of new and unknown, since I have never stayed at RC before, so I don`t know if the chain has certain rules. Of course, you can go to a theater in jeans, but it`s rather not to be desired.

Ritz used to have dress codes, but that was way back when they were truly Ritz-Carlton rather than a Marriott clone. Nowadays, they have a penchant for sports bars and fastish food. Fine dining is a thing of the past.

I agree that the benchmark for high-end resorts is Amanresorts and for Business/City Hotels, Four Seasons.

Professors at universities tend to like case studies where there are training programmes and written manuals and books about how a certain aspect (for hotels: service) should be. Case studies with surveys showing that after a special programme was implemented, consumer satisfaction or occupancy levels etc. went up, they like as well. I guess that RC was able to show such a theoretical case to universities, meaning they become famous case studies, maybe even used for decades after things changed.

Really good service, like Aman service, cannot be in such a book or case study. There are no fixed manuals about how to greet guests, what to talk to them about and how to treat them (thank God). The kind of service offered there, is a way of living a vision and really understanding each individual and often very different guest. There might thus maybe never be a case study about them for professors to present to their students, but the experience of staying in such a place, is way more useful than theoretical talk about something else, like a RC in this case.

This means that I would recommend OP not to stay in a RC if he/she really want to experience top service but rather wait until an opportunity to stay at an Amanresort (or FS if we are talking business trip).

Maybe very generalising, but still my view.

I am amused how, so far, the bad service of a RC hotel is due to staff not knowing about a points promotion.
I stay at RC, 4S, MO because of the service, confort and location. I respect that people like to earn points when staying at a hotel, I am happy to take them from airlines.
I think today true luxury hotels are getting harder to find as the operating costs are just to high to get the right training in place and the right number of staff. I believe RC, 4S, MO still do a good job, they do slip up on occassion but overall my stays are very enjoyable. Compared to Hilton's, Sheraton and others, RC is still a benchmark.

lesson re communication = only deal with mgmt, many here do that

gold for $100/yr http://www.abercrombiekent.com/marcopoloclub/benefits_ritz.cfm

Maybe very generalising, but still my view.

actually not generalizing or your opinion at all, but pretty hard fact, and well said.

aman >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxury-hotels/1297098-amanresorts-thread-2012-started-amanjunkie-post18454969.html#post18454969

end of what makes lux hotel thread, for other companies' docs (look at my posts)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxury-hotels/765493-serious-question-what-makes-luxury-hotel-post18459362.html#post18459362

Professors at universities tend to like case studies where there are training programmes and written manuals and books about how a certain aspect (for hotels: service) should be.
This means that I would recommend OP not to stay in a RC if he/she really want to experience top service but rather wait until an opportunity to stay at an Amanresort (or FS if we are talking business trip).

Maybe very generalising, but still my view.

Definitely a great point. Some of the professors at my school are recent PhD`s, and they base their teaching on those case studies. I try to avoid those prof as much as I can though and tend to favor Korean professors who are the best in my opinion.

I still have to make a business trip to DC, where should I stay to experience the highest level of hospitality?

I am amused how, so far, the bad service of a RC hotel is due to staff not knowing about a points promotion.
.

Yes, it is a bad service, as a great service starts with pre-arrival, and is a part of the whole experience.

NO place should discriminate against anyone based solely on one's clothing...
Cheers,

From a legal point, a hotel or a restaurant can discriminate based solely on one`s clothing; restaurants have even more power to do so; with hotels, it is possible, but they tend to not abuse it much. Poorly or inappropriate dressed person does not fit into protected class.

Yes, it is a bad service, as a great service starts with pre-arrival, and is a part of the whole experience.

Totally agree.

Yes, it is a bad service, as a great service starts with pre-arrival, and is a part of the whole experience.

Definitely agree!

I`ve stayed at some very nice hotels around the world, but I am a newbie to this chain. I`m wondering if there is a dress code while staying there? For breakfast, etc? How much do you tip a complimentary chauffeur? Do you always tip concierge? Will it be ok to wear jeans (I`ll be on a pleasure trip, and don`t feel like wearing anything else) Any other suggestions and tips to enjoy the stay at the most? My first Ritz is going to be in Washington, DC on 22nd St.
Thank you!

Out of curiosity, could you name some of those hotels?

I still have to make a business trip to DC, where should I stay to experience the highest level of hospitality?

St. Regis, Le Meridien, W

St. Regis, Le Meridien, W

St Regis perhaps, though it's considered in the second-tier of DC luxury hotels. The W is a far cry from luxury and has consistently poor service according to reviews from multiple sources. And, I"m not aware of a Le Meridien in DC, so I'm not sure what you're talking about....


Also, this really is a bizarre thread.

I've never stayed at the W in DC but been multiple times for drinks/dinner and it has been fine. Le Meridien is on the other side of the river in Arlington. Agree on the bizarre thread part.

St. Regis, Le Meridien, W

Was the original question asking only for Starwood hotels? I can't seem to find it.

In DC The Four Seasons is almost always my choice, but I do also like The Hay Adams for its location and service. I don't consider any other hotels.

At the RC, San Francisco, it is not unusual to see folks at breakfast in the Club wearing their RC robes. Also, they wander through the Club in their robes in order to go down to the pool.

Aikes. I don't mind people going to and fro in their bathrobes (to the pool or spa), but taking breakfast in the club while robe-clad strikes me as a little too far for any hotel.

I've seen club managers politely eject guests over the years (particularly the tough Penny at the Laguna club) for such attire.

Ritz used to have dress codes, but that was way back when they were truly Ritz-Carlton rather than a Marriott clone. Nowadays, they have a penchant for sports bars and fastish food. Fine dining is a thing of the past.

I agree that the benchmark for high-end resorts is Amanresorts and for Business/City Hotels, Four Seasons.

I've got a trip to Dallas next week and dinner at Fearing's in the RC. I have a feeling it will be decent. Not staying at the hotel.

I've got a trip to Dallas next week and dinner at Fearing's in the RC. I have a feeling it will be decent. Not staying at the hotel.

Ah, but Dallas is a whole different ball game. Dallas is more English than England. They used to do high tea much better than the English, or at least, more traditionally (white gloves etc). :D

Yes, it is a bad service, as a great service starts with pre-arrival, and is a part of the whole experience.

Knowing about some hidden point promotion is really not very important unless than is you rmain reason to stay at the hotel. Marketing produces so many promotion you will find front office staff are not aware of most.

[QUOTE=RichardInSF;18865888]A few Ritz Carltons may have been the benchmark long ago, but certainly since the chain was acquired by Marriott, that has ceased to be true.

Amusing, so you would not buy a Ferrari since Fiat owns it, a Lamborghini as VW is the owner? Still great cars, actually got better with the new ownership. Bulgari is also owned by LMVH, and the list continues. Luxury is great but few people actually buy into it! A financially strong parent company is essential, 4S is owned by two people who enjoy the brand however even they want to see some return!

A few Ritz Carltons may have been the benchmark long ago, but certainly since the chain was acquired by Marriott, that has ceased to be true.

Amusing, so you would not buy a Ferrari since Fiat owns it, a Lamborghini as VW is the owner? Still great cars, actually got better with the new ownership. Bulgari is also owned by LMVH, and the list continues. Luxury is great but few people actually buy into it! A financially strong parent company is essential, 4S is owned by two people who enjoy the brand however even they want to see some return!

Some companies buy brands and respect those brands, so do not try to change them. LVMH, for instance, are known to buy brands and then let them get on with it, which is a very sensible attitude, as why would you buy a successful brand and then try to change it? Marriott, however, HAVE changed Ritz-Carlton. At first, they left well alone, but, as predicted, gradually they began to make cost conscious decisions and it was at this point that R-C began to decline as a high-end brand. I suspect that Fiat has rather more respect for Ferrari than Marriott has for Ritz.

You'll hear this from many of us here, but I cannot think of an RC anywhere in the world that is a 'benchmark'. Who told you that again?

Update -- There is a Ritz Carlton (http://www.fourseasons.com/chicagorc/) in Chicago that is very good, but it is really an FS. Does that count?

I think today true luxury hotels are getting harder to find as the operating costs are just to high to get the right training in place and the right number of staff. I believe RC, 4S, MO still do a good job, they do slip up on occassion but overall my stays are very enjoyable. Compared to Hilton's, Sheraton and others, RC is still a benchmark.

I think the above is a good post as it lumps in RC/FS/MO which is the right thing to do. They're practically indistinguishable at check-in, check-out and in-room...and that's 90% of most stays as there are tiny few tangible differentiators among them.

I find it curious that so many people look for these little clues for RC's or FS' supposed decline; RC is getting picked on in this thread, but it could be either.

Though the detailed analysis is often interesting, we shouldnt necessarily mind that a certain RC GM came from a career at Marriott if the service is still superb. -I've had the misfortune of staying at Marriott hotels and they have as much in common with FS properties as they do RC. Nor should we necessarily mind that FS' upper management has turned over at a supposed alarming rate if the chain still provides great service...nor should any other such "insider" triviality necessarily be of consequence.

These tidbits make nice fodder on a online board and unfortunately seem to affect the mindset of a few that seem to cheer for one brand over the other like it's a sporting event. As a consumer I care about the product that is delivered and the value for the dollar, whether Im paying personally or not, irrespective of brand. While upper mgt/ownership moves may be indicative of future changes that affect consumers, I find most of these assertions & projections to be of very little use. However...when RC goes generic in their toiletries, then yes I care. When FS changes its reservations-change-price policies, then yes I care. When RC gives you access to a loyalty program, yes I care. It's these differences at the fringes that might make a difference in my choices of hotel.

But the reality is that despite all the openings and a few closings and both RC and FS selling out...not too much has changed in the last 10+ years that I've been an FS/RC/MO regular other than the rates rising.

RC still is the best for business travelers and it's not close. Until FS commits to buildings club levels in the States it really isnt a fair fight.

FS still is the best, by far, for leisure among the big lux chains. Especially outside the US. They have apparently made the model work in smaller formats while RC seeks volume in leisure.

MO is nice in certain markets when the rates are right.

RC still is the best for business travelers and it's not close. Until FS commits to buildings club levels in the States it really isnt a fair fight.
Care to give a single example of where this is true? Also, I haven't the slightest idea what a 'club level' at an FS would accomplish. Please elaborate.

Care to give a single example of where this is true? Also, I haven't the slightest idea what a 'club level' at an FS would accomplish. Please elaborate.

Hi Mike,

This is one of the few non-subjective aspects that we can judge these properties on. So other than someone saying they simply dont value club lounges or value them less than I do or that they think the quality of them is poor, this isnt a particularly debatable subject.

Im guessing we could list 50 examples where one of these brands has a club level and the other does not, so there seems to be little need to list just one. I dont think it's necessary for much elaboration unless you've never been to an FS or RC club level before; and I assume you have experienced a handful at least.

Ritz used to have dress codes, but that was way back when they were truly Ritz-Carlton rather than a Marriott clone. Nowadays, they have a penchant for sports bars and fastish food. Fine dining is a thing of the past.

I agree that the benchmark for high-end resorts is Amanresorts and for Business/City Hotels, Four Seasons.

There is no need to exclude FS from having sports bars and non-fine-dining restaurants. That's what FS builds now. The latest opening in Baltimore is yet another one to join in on the sports bar theme...

Even though it is another FS that is not fine dining, I have thoroughly enjoyed the food at the main restaurant at FS Baltimore despite very spotty service. I've been trying to get to the new sushi outlet there too, but havent yet. Maybe next time Im through Baltimore.

Hi Mike,

This is one of the few non-subjective aspects that we can judge these properties on. So other than someone saying they simply dont value club lounges or value them less than I do or that they think the quality of them is poor, this isnt a particularly debatable subject.

Im guessing we could list 50 examples where one of these brands has a club level and the other does not, so there seems to be little need to list just one. I dont think it's necessary for much elaboration unless you've never been to an FS or RC club level before; and I assume you have experienced a handful at least.

I am curious why you find the club level so essential. I am only an occasional business traveler, but this is something I never seek out. In my experience I have preferred the Four Seasons to the equivalent Ritz Carlton almost every time. Do you need it for work? I have only ever paid up for the club floor a few times and I rarely think it is worth the money, but that is just my opinion. I know lots of other folks feel differently.

I am curious why you find the club level so essential. I am only an occasional business traveler, but this is something I never seek out. In my experience I have preferred the Four Seasons to the equivalent Ritz Carlton almost every time. Do you need it for work? I have only ever paid up for the club floor a few times and I rarely think it is worth the money, but that is just my opinion. I know lots of other folks feel differently.

Perhaps this is wholly off-topic, but the thought just hit me: wouldn't the Ritz-Carlton (Four Seasons) Chicago be the perfect American Four Seasons to incorporate a Club Level? Given the hotel's large size for FS, a 'hotel within a hotel' could be a perfect complement to its (few) shortcomings.

I am curious why you find the club level so essential. I am only an occasional business traveler, but this is something I never seek out. In my experience I have preferred the Four Seasons to the equivalent Ritz Carlton almost every time. Do you need it for work? I have only ever paid up for the club floor a few times and I rarely think it is worth the money, but that is just my opinion. I know lots of other folks feel differently.

Four Seasons does a fine job of explaining the reasons why:
http://www.fourseasons.com/hongkong/services_and_amenities/executive_club/

In summary:

no waiting for room service; I can grab a bite and head out on my schedule
no eating room service breakfast in a usually humid post-shower room
no eating breakfast in a restaurant, no need to interact with wait staff and wait for a check (but sometimes I enjoy that anyway and can partake with club staff)
no worry coffee and espresso usually 24/7
no counting pennies for every sparkling water I grab
A nice place to relax out of the room at the end of the day with no expectations of ordering anything
A nice place to grab a cocktail and be as leisurely as a wish
Sort of a butler's pantry with noshes both fancy and not-so-fancy food out usually 6-11 and a few things usually out 24/7
Complete anonymity if I want it, yet still highly personalized and easily accessible service if I need it. No need to get to know a manager or anyone else. Anonymity, when Im focused on business, is bliss...yet I dont have to hold up in my room to get it nor do I have to miss out on F&B.

...Im sure others could list more reasons that it is helpful for them (I know I could but this is probably sufficient for this purpose)...

And it's always nice to know that if I am not in the mood for any of this, there's nothing stopping me from having breakfast in the main restaurant or a drink at the main bar or having a chat with senior staff., etc.

Perhaps this is wholly off-topic, but the thought just hit me: wouldn't the Ritz-Carlton (Four Seasons) Chicago be the perfect American Four Seasons to incorporate a Club Level? Given the hotel's large size for FS, a 'hotel within a hotel' could be a perfect complement to its (few) shortcomings.

If I am not mistaken, it had a club level in the past. And then (again if Im not mistaken) FS took it over and shut the club down.

And forget "fine dining" as noted above by a different poster as a problem with RCs-only, this FS shuttered its restaurant years ago and has attempted to transform a bar into a make-shift restaurant which turns out nice food in a very odd setting...and it's too bad because I very much enjoyed Seasons when it was there. I'll see if I can dig up my trip report on it.

So in the light of the limited food options, a club would be especially nice to have. And surmising that the floorplan accommodated it at one point; I'd assume it wouldnt be too hard to retrofit it back in. Here's hoping as I had a pretty nice stay here early this year.

no waiting for room service; I can grab a bite and head out on my schedule

no eating room service breakfast in a usually humid post-shower room

no eating breakfast in a restaurant, no need to interact with wait staff and wait for a check (but sometimes I enjoy that anyway and can partake with club staff)
included buffet breakfast


no worry coffee and espresso usually 24/7

no counting pennies for every sparkling water I grab

in room


A nice place to relax out of the room at the end of the day with no expectations of ordering anything
guest only seating areas plus libraries/lounges

A nice place to grab a cocktail and be as leisurely as a wish
luxury - being able to order to a guest only seating area

Sort of a butler's pantry with noshes both fancy and not-so-fancy food out usually 6-11 and a few things usually out 24/7.

Complete anonymity if I want it, yet still highly personalized and easily accessible service if I need it...yet I dont have to hold up in my room to get it nor do I have to miss out on F&B.
a smaller hotel with guest only seating areas is going to be more private than a fee-based club in a possibly large hotel. note im using "smaller" to emphasize the comparison, NOT only referring to tiny hotels where one could argue from the standpoint of less anonymity.

but then i recognize im not addressing F&B (arguable to a certain degree) because while luxury is order anything served anywhere, thats not really that standard. as you say "theoretical" from the standpoint of standardization.

I was disappointed with the club lounge at the four Seasons Hong Kong,it did not deliver for the premium paid.
The staff there were effecient but clinical,they weren't personable at all and often asked for my room number :eek:
They would pour different wines into the same glass (I had to alert them to this,to looks of surprise) and God forbid that you arrive at lunchtime wanting more than cookies to eat,there was certainly nothing else at that time.

The design of the terrace is crazy too,it's just a narrow walkway that's effectively a glorified smoking area.Whose idea was that?

It's nice to be able to sit outside in a club lounge.
Four Seasons can get it wrong too,even at flagships.
To date,our best lounge experiences have still been in Ritz Carltons,but one of the best was last year actually on the newly renovated club floor of the New Orleans Windsor Court.
To go on topic,most people there were in semi formal wear and we were smart casual.
The athmosphere couldn't have been more contrasting with say the Hk four seasons one.Windsor was far more homely.

included buffet breakfast
club can be less crowded, but can be less quality


in room


guest only seating areas


luxury - being able to order to a guest only seating area

not everyone does lounge food. it would be nice if clubs with limited rooms like FS maui and buenos aires were exceptions, but not sure. personally, im a fan of small luxury all-inclusive.


a smaller hotel with guest only seating areas is going to be more private than a fee-based club in a possibly large hotel. note im using "smaller" to emphasize the comparison, NOT only referring to tiny hotels where one could argue from the standpoint of less anonymity.

but then i recognize im not addressing F&B (arguable to a certain degree) because while luxury is order anything served anywhere, thats not really that standard.

It's hard to discuss this in light that you've now moved into the fictional or, well, theoretical. In any case, as mentioned above, one's own utility realized from these enhancements is indeed a highly subjective matter...yet they are enhancements nonetheless and they are material.

I was disappointed with the club lounge at the four Seasons Hong Kong,it did not deliver for the premium paid.
The staff there were effecient but clinical,they weren't personable at all and often asked for my room number :eek:
They would pour different wines into the same glass (I had to alert them to this,to looks of surprise) and God forbid that you arrive at lunchtime wanting more than cookies to eat,there was certainly nothing else at that time.

The design of the terrace is crazy too,it's just a narrow walkway that's effectively a glorified smoking area.Whose idea was that?

It's nice to be able to sit outside in a club lounge.
Four Seasons can get it wrong too,even at flagships.
To date,our best lounge experiences have still been in Ritz Carltons,but one of the best was last year actually on the newly renovated club floor of the New Orleans Windsor Court.
To go on topic,most people there were in semi formal wear and we were smart casual.
The athmosphere couldn't have been more contrasting with say the Hk four seasons one.Windsor was far more homely.

Yes, I think I read about your thoughts on the FS recently and I was surprised to hear it. I'd still like to give it a shot anyway. My experience of going off RC for clubs is very limited and has usually been quite positive.

Given the hotel's large size for FS, a 'hotel within a hotel' could be a perfect

second largest FS
largest is sydney (former regent)

regardless of anything else, RC has a lot more larger properties
clearly a factor in having clubs, even at smaller properties too
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13584042-post73.html

FS club >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxury-hotels/1341291-peninsula-mandarin-oriental-hkg.html#post18521340

Oh don't get me wrong driving rain.
The four S Hkg is lovely throughout.
The restaurants are fantastic,we ate at caprice and Lung.The pool area is great and service is very good.
The club,we thought was bad value.

Some companies buy brands and respect those brands, so do not try to change them. LVMH, for instance, are known to buy brands and then let them get on with it, which is a very sensible attitude, as why would you buy a successful brand and then try to change it? Marriott, however, HAVE changed Ritz-Carlton. At first, they left well alone, but, as predicted, gradually they began to make cost conscious decisions and it was at this point that R-C began to decline as a high-end brand. I suspect that Fiat has rather more respect for Ferrari than Marriott has for Ritz.

I actually hate LVMH and what they do their brands.

R-C still has some quality properties-such as the R-C Central Park, and it sounds the Georgetown property in D.C. is pretty solid. New properties in Toronto and Hong Kong are nice as well. I do think the FS is the best in terms of a consistent level of service across it's chain, but they seem to be a little particular in the locations they go into.

I always hated the comparisons of an Aman resort to a FS, RC, MO or PH property.