Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Is it only me? A very confused HON ...

I think I was a HON member for almost 8 years (interrupted 1 year because of a bad sickness), and honestly, even if I force my brain to the limits, I cannot find enough reasons to do anything to regain the status again.

As frequent-flyer I have very little basic needs:
1) flexible call-center
2) help in connection-flights
3) possibility to relax when I had to wait longer inbetween flight
4) privileges in bookings

When the HON program started, LH grow to excellences and became a reference point for customer service. For my own company I learned and copied a lot of them. But today I would fire my manager if he would take the HON program as a teaching model.

What changed:
1) Call-center.
Once upon a time, there was a group of LH-entusiastic employers in Kassel, who resolved you EVERYTHING, really EVERYTHING what could be a problem during your trip. I recall a case where I forgot that I needed a Visa for Cuba. LH doesn't fly to Cuba, but nevertheless on my arrival in the HON-Longue in FRA (I flow in from VCE), there was a Visa waiting for me!!

Beside those frequent miracles, you could call them from everywhere in the world, they recognized your cell and you could re-arrange your flights in just seconds. Today you need to remember: your Card, pin-code, booking or ticket- number and who knows what else. The excuse of higher data-security gave LH the possibility to reduce the service. I know for sure that the Law would offer the possibility that with my consensus they could keep the older service, but it would cost LH some money to change their computer-programs.

Btw, I never ever will understand that in 8 years LH was not able to set up a computer-program which takes into account that HON-members probably have two or more addresses (private, business ecc). Each time I have now to spell out my address again and again, once I change from private to business or viceversa.

BUT what (sorry reading Ladies) what pisses me off totally is that lately I discovered that the tickets sold via HON-Call-Center frequently are up to 20-25% higher in price then the same tickets sold on Internet. This is indeed the most outrageous way of discouraging the use of a service!

2) Help in connection flights
I probably always misunderstood this part of the service. I thought the limo-service was to help us to get easier in time to the next flight, but I learned that it was thought as a kind of image-carece. OK, it helped when I flow with the cutest girl of the company, but I rather would prefer to get into a Smart when I arrive from a intercontinental night-flight in the horrible C-Terminal (FRA) and need to get quickly to A for a connection-flight, but no, in that case you are just a nobody. LH doesn't get the mind together to image how much anger a HON can accumulate when he has to walk from C to A, and every step is a promise: NEVER AGAIN will i drop into the temptation to choose LH just fro the status-points!!!
Of course there are enough people who love that image-kick, but after so many years you just don't get that anymore, you want THE real service, not the caricature of a service!

3) possibility to relax when I had to wait longer in-between flight
Two words on the HON-Longues here. Nice, but after 8 years always the same buffet??? The other day I flow with two more employes via Munich and not being able to invite them into the Longue we went to eat at the Kaefer ...Ahhh...what a satisfaction! I forgot in this years how good some airport restaurants are:)))

4) privileges in bookings
Do we really have them? I don't even understand any more the differences between D, P, C, Y, Q, Z and what else are all around. The Call-Center has different, higher prices, and honestly as HON I thought to get things made easier. If I have to sit down and study to get to a level of knowledge like a travel-agent, then the LH manager again haven't understood the HON-Frequent-Flyer. Maybe its just me, but I expected that the HON status should help me to get the best I can for the price, I don't care the image around, and I definitely don't want to be overpriced by 20%!!

What else could I miss not being anymore a HON?
Help on arrival by escorts in unknown airports? Well I remember when once I arrived in Bankong and 2 LH employes came into the aircraft to help me with my handbags. Then while bringing me to the Transfer-Longue they asked me if I need some help in shopping. On my last trip to Bankong there was nobody.
Anyway, honestly I don't miss them really.

Empty seat next to you? Bahhh...

Preferred update from business to first? I may sound like a snob now, but I sleep better in business then in first; in first the ground is very thin and vibrates in many aircrafts when somebody is walking by. Also the seat-belts are shorter in First, so you can not turn and sleep sidewise, like in Business you can.

SEN-Card for your loved one? OK this is a benefit when you live in different places. I will miss this one.

Anything else??? NO!!!

So I decided this early spring to slow down with LH tickets. Indeed I'm somewhere over 300.000 now but with the flights I forecasted for the next 6 months I could still do it if somebody convinces me here WHY being a HON would be still an advantage today. I just cannot see any anymore.

Honestly...
a) you do not seem confused in the slightest way to me
b) you already pointed out the most important things
c) you already seem to have your mind made up ?

But: Without any knowledge about your preferred routes and your expectations probably nobody can really give proper advise if there are alternatives.

That said.. I just agree with your "rant above".

Interesting reflection....

It is true that LH has introduced many setbacks for their HONs in the last couple of years, but still HON is one of the best recognition FF program in the airline industry.

Honestly...
a) you do not seem confused in the slightest way to me
b) you already pointed out the most important things
c) you already seem to have your mind made up ?

But: Without any knowledge about your preferred routes and your expectations probably nobody can really give proper advise if there are alternatives.

That said.. I just agree with your "rant above".

Lets say I'm 90% convinced that it just doesn't make sense to schedule your life and work to make it fit with the LH flight-route just to get the HON points! Because this is what is happening after a time, you program your holydays possibly where LH is landing and don't visit customer so often if LH doesn't have a destination there.

On the other side if after dropping out from the HON status I would see suddenly that LH is transferring HON passengers from Terminal C to A and offer full body massages for free in the HON-longues, and re-establish the original call-centers, then I would feel indeed very stupid that I stopped collecting HON-points.

I'm just curious how other HONs feel about the current situation and what they think will LH do in the next future.

It is true that LH has introduced many setbacks for their HONs in the last couple of years, but still HON is one of the best recognition FF program in the airline industry.

Honestly I don't know of any other program where the call-center for the top clients try to sell you tickets up to 20% more expensive then the price on the company web-side for the same trip. Please correct me if I'm wrong, actually I would love to be wrong!!!

I never booked a ticket from the LH call center so I cannot comment on that. In general though I've learned that if I want to get the cheapest prices, no matter if flights or hotels, I need to book them myself online.

Regarding the HON status itself I agree that it is not as special as the airline is advertising it, specially since they keep on reducing benefits. It became completely ridiculous to call it "exclusive".

Nice small example is when you fly with LH or OS intra-Europe. There is no recognition of the status at all while on the other side flying LX I'm always being greeted by the purser and I get a bottle of water before take-off even when sitting in Y. A little effort that makes the big difference.

Escort on certain airports can be indeed useful to save time, one thing you can call "exclusive". Unfortunately you cannot count on it on every airport. Most idiotic at ZRH, they will not pick up a HON from an outside position unless he is flying to GVA.

Access to F lounges is nice, but SEN/Gold lounges are mostly ok too. HON Priority luggage is good but in many cases arrives with the "regular" Priority luggage so not really an advantage over SEN.

Bottom line is that they really have to get a grip make and HON again what it was and should be. Real benefits, real exclusivity. Otherwise it becomes an "exclusive" joke.

Operating a loyalty program where loyalty is not appreciated anymore is doing the opposite. No rocket science needed here.

I can second the disappointment expressed by the op. When Lufthansa introduced the changes to its program recently I first was quiet exited about the prospect of probably less HON members going forward and a re-focus to the old strngth of the product, but what I can monitor now is a true devaluation of the program. I agree that the call centre has become ridiculous and the days where they where there to help us are over - now they will only try to upsell you, screw fees out of you that don't even exist and they tend to try selling higher fares then necessary (For example: Whenever I can I try to book early to take advnatage of the A fares. Since a year no agent ever offered me an A fare for my routing - I always had to explicitly ask for it).
The intra Europe product is now so bad these days that I can't bear it anymore, in particular on longer flights. Recently on a flight to Beirut I got severe back problems and was suffering for days. I dreaded so much going back that I actually changed to Air France (an airline that I dont appreciate, but use on occasions to destinations other airlines dont fly to) in desperation for a decent seat (AF operates a 777 out of BEY). Where is the point to have a good connection service if the underlying product totally sucks (and this includes the C in longhaul, I tried the new product to Washington recently and it is a joke compared to most other airlines these days. I also dont like the LX C seat)? The new F is nice, but my experience in the past few months has been that it is also well booked and if you can't get an A fare it is just too expensive. Upgrades are not confirmed anymore (now that they only have eight seats to offer) and it has become rediculous to try using miles for F Awards - impossible on any of my private routes in the past year without being waitlisted until the day of departure (a risk not worth having, because there is a high chance you will be stuck on the slopy chair). So practically if you don't want to bear with them in C the miles are useless (I dont understand why they dont introduce vouchers you earn to be able to also book F Awards twice a year on revenue seats like other airlines do. so at least you would have a decent chance for a seat twice a year?).
The arrival Hon service at outstations is a hit and miss now, with hardly any station offering this service in any serious form.
Nice Lounges you can find with most airlines today, the FRA FCT is great, no question, but if you fly in F you get that anyway, so no need to concentrate on LH for HON.
Luckily BA has just this month returned to Dublin (through the BMI merger) with a C product and my experiences in the past few months with them on long haul (and their partners Cathay Pacific and LAN) has been excellent. Even though the transfer in Heathrow is a bit more cumbersome the onboard product is great if you want to sleep in both F and C. The CCR Lounge is very good if you have to wait and the Executive Club with the GGL service has far exceeded my expectations. Very comparable to the old Hon Line.

the tickets sold via HON-Call-Center frequently are up to 20-25% higher in price then the same tickets sold on Internet. This is indeed the most outrageous way of discouraging the use of a service!


I am not HON, so have no way of confirming if this is true, but if this is true this is really pathetic of LH if true.

It is true that LH has introduced many setbacks for their HONs in the last couple of years, but still HON is one of the best recognition FF program in the airline industry.

I would disagree with that. I am HON Circle for two years now and I am also PPS with SQ, and Emerald with both BA and QF. Comparing all of these programs, I think that SQ - while having the least published benefits - is treating me best. I am not really sure what the real HON perks over SEN are these days.

Hotline:
Lufthansa is now routing all HON calls (even those to the Frankfurt number) into their regular call centers. The employees have zero empowerment and often zero clue. They cannot help with anything but bookings and seat assignments and are not able to take care or follow up on anything else. My first question to the agents nowadays is about their location. If the answer is Istanbul, I politely excuse myself and hang up. BA and SQ still have dedicated teams for their top tier members. SQ is having a dedicated PPS coordinator I can contact directly, BA still has small team for BA Gold Guest List but LH has nothing at all for their HONs.

Response Time:
Contacting the HON Circle team by e-mail is the only way to raise anything and most of the times I have to send a chaser after one week to get an answer. Absolutely pathetic. All other airlines get back same day or the next working day.

Operational Upgrades:
Lufthansa is the only airline of the four that has discontinued upgrading by status and is only upgrading by booking class as of today. A base member in J gets the upgrade over the HON in C. Lufthansa doesn't upgrade award bookings. All other airlines still upgrade by status and include award tickets.

Mileage Awards/Upgrades:
Lufthansa has become an absolute pain in the ... to book upgrades or awards for First Class. Living in Singapore, I have similar problems with BA and QF and surprisingly SQ wins hands down: Their availability even on very busy routes in Business and First is great and if the online tool can only waitlist me, I give them a call and my seats are usually cleared the next day.


The HON Circle card is still the most prestigious card due to the high number of miles one does need to qualify. The 'aura' of the card is still there but it won't last forever. If you asked me where Lufthansa has 'vowed' me in the last 18 months, I couldn't come up with anything. If you asked me what went wrong or was outright pathetic, I could come up with a pretty long list.

SQ has delivered the best care and is pocketing most of my travel budget. Wasn't that what loyalty management was all about?

I was entertained in the gate lounge at Jakarta by the silliness of an HON + pretty helper stood waiting to be first on board the CGK SIN flight. As fate had it i was seated next to the HON, who was a sociable sort, but dominated our chat with complaints about LH in general and the HON service in particular.

The biggest complaint seemed to be that he'd been seated next to me. Nothing personal :D, he'd just expected an upgrade or at least an empty seat. I'd rather hoped for the same, but quite clearly his status fed him higher levels of expectation. Still, I was getting off in SIN, so hopefully he continued to MUC in isolation.

I came away from our conversation convinced that LH is handling the programme badly: presenting the status as an aspitational "prize" is silly - it attracts the wrong sort of passenger. I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way: it's simply that if you persuade people to make an effort to enter your club then you run the risk of creating intense disappointment and dissatisfaction if you do not deliver 100% on what is expected.

British Airways gets on with the same sort of programme much more quietly, managing to keep a core group of very high revenure generators happy with benefits and facilities that are (largely) unpublished.

Lufthansa clearly can't match the fairy-tale list of benefits it started out with. I'm sure the airline will claim its HON programme is "a victiim of its own success" by attracting too many members, and these over-loaded the system. But it would perhaps have been better if LH had concentrated on quietly looking after its best customers, and keeping their business, rather than selling an aspirational package they could never deliver to a wider membership.

I discovered that the tickets sold via HON-Call-Center frequently are up to 20-25% higher in price then the same tickets sold on Internet.

By the way, are you sure it's the same ticket? Specially the same booking class? I have a hard time to believe they can make up individual prices.

I would not be surprised if they avoid selling/offering the lowest-fare ticket (aka P-class or saver). That's obviously not very customer friendly but they might sit on a policy that a HON as frequent traveller also needs to be able to rebook/cancel tickets, therefore P-Biz tickets are out of the game.

By the way, are you sure it's the same ticket? Specially the same booking class? I have a hard time to believe they can make up individual prices.

I would not be surprised if they avoid selling/offering the lowest-fare ticket (aka P-class or saver). That's obviously not very customer friendly but they might sit on a policy that a HON as frequent traveller also needs to be able to rebook/cancel tickets, therefore P-Biz tickets are out of the game.

Yes I'm!!! If you speak German, here is the answer I got on my complain:

...bitten hierbei jedoch um Ihr Verständnis dafür, dass sie sich an die gegebenen Tarifstrukturen halten müssen. Abhängig vom jeweiligen Markt und der Buchungssituation können Onlineangebote günstiger sein, als wenn Sie telefonisch buchen. Die Mitarbeiter der Hotline haben bestimmte Zugriffsrechte, die ihnen andere Tarife anzeigen, als es online der Fall ist....

Now it is a semantic question if they invent additional price-classes to avoid to give the lower prices via call-center. The point is that they try to reduce the expenses of the service by lowering the quality.

To explain how it was in the past: I fly often from VCE via MUC/FRA to LAX. In the good old days it happened that the computer of the call-center didn't show up the Z-class on one route. In this cases the operator used to split the trip into two different sections, and most of the time I got the Z-class for both. NB, they used to offer it to go this way and it worked. They always looked to find the best prices for the HONs.

Now I want to underline that the online offer was made not by a 3th party, but by the LH own web-side. And the differences where always hundreds of euros and not the booking expenses.

...
On the other side if after dropping out from the HON status I would see suddenly that LH is transferring HON passengers from Terminal C to A and offer full body massages for free in the HON-longues, and re-establish the original call-centers, then I would feel indeed very stupid that I stopped collecting HON-points.
...


Dreaming of a perfect world ;) ?

This is neither Thai in BKK nor does LH want to spend the extra dime..

Yes I'm!!! If you speak German, here is the answer I got on my complain:

...bitten hierbei jedoch um Ihr Verständnis dafür, dass sie sich an die gegebenen Tarifstrukturen halten müssen. Abhängig vom jeweiligen Markt und der Buchungssituation können Onlineangebote günstiger sein, als wenn Sie telefonisch buchen. Die Mitarbeiter der Hotline haben bestimmte Zugriffsrechte, die ihnen andere Tarife anzeigen, als es online der Fall ist....


This is outright pathetic and ridiculous at once. The retarded monkey that must have been pushing buttons randomly to create an answer consisting of a prefabric text did neither take care of the customers needs nor did he waste a single braincell on what this answer might create on the other side..
This exactly explains the situation they do have at the moment: A customer care that does not care..

Preferred update from business to first? I may sound like a snob now, but I sleep better in business then in first; in first the ground is very thin and vibrates in many aircrafts when somebody is walking by. Also the seat-belts are shorter in First, so you can not turn and sleep sidewise, like in Business you can.


Im sure you could find someone to take your place if you are unlucky enough to be upgraded from C to F :rolleyes:

Unfortunately I can confirm several problems.

I had the experience that the call center is sometimes not even able to confirm a waitlist in D class, if there are seats available, and they want you to upsell to J.

It is completely crazy, and it is frustrating to see that they want to squeeze out more money from their SENs and HON on a flexible D fare, whilst they sell D class to all other customers...

My contribution to the SCORE program has been to include an entire month without setting foot on an LH group airplane !

There was nothing I missed out on as the airlines I travelled with all gave exceptional services (EK, SQ & TG)!

My contribution to the SCORE program has been to include an entire month without setting foot on an LH group airplane !

There was nothing I missed out on as the airlines I travelled with all gave exceptional services (EK, SQ & TG)!

Agreed.

Long-term HON here. I will probably not requalify now in 2014- and I really don't care any longer after years of being a faithful customer and the decision maker on who we fly with.

Fares that are 3 times competition.

Elimination of key business destinations such as Guangzhou China (absurd).

Very slow to deploy new product. No- not very slow- glacial pace.

Management that does not listen to customers at all and want only the opportunistic dollar/euro/reminibi/yen/peso/etc.

All of the points mentioned in this thread.

Last month (June) I flew with BA, IB, and QR for example. Next week QR again. Later this month QR....again. One LX flight to DEL at the end of the month for 1549 EUR business all in RT. Then- I need to go to DEN at the end of August- and the LH fare is a very reasonable 2.5 times the BA fare- if I want a fare even close I need to connect through ORD inbound and IAD outbound and change my flights by a day in each direction and it is still 400 EUR more (pass).

Perhaps someone from LH will notice the drop off in traffic- however with the recent IT implementations which are terrible I doubt they even know.

Well I notice 18 critical replies in 24 hours from different HONs, and nobody tried to defend LH, or give any positive reason why to stay tuned as HON. This is even worst then I thought! :(((

To explain how it was in the past: I fly often from VCE via MUC/FRA to LAX. In the good old days it happened that the computer of the call-center didn't show up the Z-class on one route. In this cases the operator used to split the trip into two different sections, and most of the time I got the Z-class for both. NB, they used to offer it to go this way and it worked. They always looked to find the best prices for the HONs.

I read somewhere that this is strictly against policy because by that they "unmarry" a married segment. If a call center worker does this these days, he or she would be severely punished. Even on a new booking, he or she is no longer allowed to add segment by segment -- the whole itinerary (one way) has to be entered at a time to avoid the chance of un-marrying a married segment.

HTB.

Well I notice 18 critical replies in 24 hours from different HONs...
If you check carefully you will notice not all replies are from HONs. :p

If you check carefully you will notice not all replies are from HONs. :p

You can ask any HON you want and you most likely get a critical response...

The most current discussion among HON is why Lufthansa is now ignoring HON completely on domestic flights.

hey
If you check carefully you will notice not all replies are from HONs. :p

don't want to offend anybody here working in finance industry (some deserve it, though :)), but with current LH CEO's financial background I don't think he gives a s**** about complaints / suggestions / stories we all write here. Even from top-top customers like you folks. LHRelate is gone - a leading indicator?

Look, as long as quarterly targets are met ("we hit 102%"), SCORE savings on track ("we saved xxxEUR") and headcount in check he will feel that he is doing right things and he is on track. Chief Sales complaining about bad PR on some frequent-traveler websites? Bad feedback on HON call center? Who cares - can't you see how much we're earning/saving? (again, simplified, no offence!).

Unless you guys really walk away from the LH business and that action is significant enough to move his "top numbers" needle, he/they will do nothing. And in order to be a significant one it needs to overtake price of oil and EU financial troubles alltogether. Otherwise immediate explanation is "Greece" / "Middle East" and nothing is going to be done to re-elevate HON program. But firstly is your "segment" big enough (revenue-wise) for CEO to notice and secondly does CEO know what the "segment" is?

To be clear folks - you spend half of your life onboard and I do agree that you should have better care from the carrier. My poor SEN is already a big help - can't walk away as it is not that bad yet, but most importantly I have no freaking choice (being based in PL).

good luck guys - I can't wait seeing what is going to happen :)
best
mfk

Unless you guys really walk away from the LH business and that action is significant enough to move his "top numbers" needle, he/they will do nothing. And in order to be a significant one it needs to overtake price of oil and EU financial troubles alltogether.

Isn't that what LH is doing by cutting down the number of HONs: handing out their top elites to competitors on a silver plate :D

Isn't that what LH is doing by cutting down the number of HONs: handing out their top elites to competitors on a silver plate :D

Right, but data would have to show how "significant" that top-elite is in the revenue terms (so. many. indicators.). Maybe CEO is in a "volks-hansa" mode and thinking (NOTE - not my position):
- everybody is equal,
- arpu (or rather per flight) not much different dr HON vs Herr Jedermann,
- churn doesn't matter as new customer isn't as costly as the old one in the internet era,
- little recognition for frequent fliers - want more? Use gulf airlines.

Again, understand your frustration but if the guy is hired to run that company in a efficient/profitable manner (we remember his DB "success") and elites happen not to be a part of his "scorecard" situation will only go worse.

let's see what happens (but please keep companion awards :))
mfk

Isn't that what LH is doing by cutting down the number of HONs: handing out their top elites to competitors on a silver plate :D

Yes. And at least a couple of airline sales teams are very aware of this in NE Italy- they have been around to visit our agencies and not just for us.

I agree LH couldn't care less at the moment- however in a few years someone is going to look back and say:
1) We gave away our highest contributing customers to the competition. Actually we pushed them away.
2) We gave up on Asia and handed it on a plate to the Middle Eastern Airlines.
3) We decided to go head-to-head against BA/IB/AA on the americas route where they have significant advantages against us.
4) We targeted the 49 EUR roundtrip customer on facebook while telling the 850 EUR customer on the same flight they were no longer valuable (think no HON miles) and attempted to make them pay 1300 EUR for a NEK seat and service (and it didn't work not once).
5) We had a very interesting social media person who we didn't renew or have the forsight to retain and replaced them with messages saying "You shouldn't feel entitled to this".

Arrivederci cari amici Lufthansa.

Yes. And at least a couple of airline sales teams are very aware of this in NE Italy- they have been around to visit our agencies and not just for us.

I agree LH couldn't care less at the moment- however in a few years someone is going to look back and say:
1) We gave away our highest contributing customers to the competition. Actually we pushed them away.
2) We gave up on Asia and handed it on a plate to the Middle Eastern Airlines.
3) We decided to go head-to-head against BA/IB/AA on the americas route where they have significant advantages against us.
4) We targeted the 49 EUR roundtrip customer on facebook while telling the 850 EUR customer on the same flight they were no longer valuable (think no HON miles) and attempted to make them pay 1300 EUR for a NEK seat and service (and it didn't work not once).
5) We had a very interesting social media person who we didn't renew or have the forsight to retain and replaced them with messages saying "You shouldn't feel entitled to this".

Arrivederci cari amici Lufthansa.

You forgot:
6) why should we fly to more places in Sud-Amercia, lets wait to get first a stronger competitor
7) Africa? Are there airports around?

BTW, does anybody know how many HONs exist today worldwide?

You forgot:
6) why should we fly to more places in Sud-Amercia, lets wait to get first a stronger competitor
7) Africa? Are there airports around?

Nice one.

BTW, does anybody know how many HONs exist today worldwide?

I have heard the number 8500 thrown around a few times however this is just a rumor (although probably quite close to correct).

In NE Italy by the way there are less than 100.

I have heard the number 8500 thrown around a few times however this is just a rumor (although probably quite close to correct).

In NE Italy by the way there are less than 100.

I remember that about 5-6 years ago somebody in LH talked me about 3000 HONs. So 8500 could be a correct guess for today.

Only 100 in NE Italy? That's really low!

I remember that about 5-6 years ago somebody in LH talked me about 3000 HONs. So 8500 could be a correct guess for today.

Only 100 in NE Italy? That's really low!

I was surprised to hear that number as well- the source seemed to be quite confident however.

It always surprises me, however AF is quite strong at VCE for example. JFK and ATL have the nonstops so all that business goes to DL.

MXP has a number of direct flights with CX/SQ/TG- again a nonstop will win for sure.

And last but not least- both EK and QR have had a huge impact on the LH business- EK is 2X daily now at VCE for example and I have heard that QR will add another flight.

I agree, EK is doing very well in VCE!

BTW, I never understood why LH based LH-Italy at MXP!!!

BTW, I never understood why LH based LH-Italy at MXP!!!

Indeed. Perhaps the understanding of the market was not quite what it needed to be. The frecciarossa has eliminated what at one time was one of the most lucrative air routes in the world.

A reminder not to get personal. Opinions differ, responding to them in a personal way is not very FT like. Two posts deleted.

Regards Oliver2002
Mod M&M forum

I have heard the number 8500 thrown around a few times however this is just a rumor (although probably quite close to correct).

In NE Italy by the way there are less than 100.

In ORD I don't see a lot of HONs nor any LH sales team performing sales calls at corporates here. Probably in ORD region less than a 100.

However, I heard once NYC has the most HONs in N.A.

I have requalified for the next two years already, but with the new rules any additional evoucher (2 per additional 150 k HON miles) have become more or less unusable. This is an invitation to go for the rest of the year to carriers like EK, who have already more passengers for Asia than LH has from DUS. Also A fares ex DUS have become unavailable during the last 2 years, which were around before. LX via ZRH still have these. The C fare has become so costly: last time I paid 5600€ for DUS-ORD RT. No more D fare for HON.
But it is more the small things, which do not cost anything to LH, bothering me. One small example is, when flying in Y you only can check 2 pieces of luggage of max. 23 kgs. each. So one piece of 30 kgs instead of two pieces of 23 kgs is not allowed. To change that for HON and SEN would be so easy without costs.

...bitten hierbei jedoch um Ihr Verständnis dafür, dass sie sich an die gegebenen Tarifstrukturen halten müssen. Abhängig vom jeweiligen Markt und der Buchungssituation können Onlineangebote günstiger sein, als wenn Sie telefonisch buchen. Die Mitarbeiter der Hotline haben bestimmte Zugriffsrechte, die ihnen andere Tarife anzeigen, als es online der Fall ist....


I totally agree that LH's customer service doesn't deserve that name anymore and that the cluelessness of some agents, usually combined with a considerable level of attitude, is getting worse every day.

But I really doubt that a ticket sold by the HOn Circle team would be more expensive than online as long as they would use 100 % the same booking classes and fare codes like you did do online.

The problem is that they are sometimes simply not able to get you into those cheaper booking classes.
As everybody knows, LH is not only offering much better Business-Class fares from anywhere else than from Germany but they also adjust the availability of the cheaper booking classes by the point of sale.
Which means, that when you call LH in UK, Italy or Netherlands they might still see Z/P Availability, but for the
german call center (POS=DE) the Z/P buckets are zeroed out and therefore they can only sell you D or C.

This is exactly what they are trying to say in their reply (in german I would say: herumeiern) and that drives up the price.

Would be interesting to know if this practise is in compliance with EU regulations.

I read somewhere that this is strictly against policy because by that they "unmarry" a married segment. If a call center worker does this these days, he or she would be severely punished. Even on a new booking, he or she is no longer allowed to add segment by segment -- the whole itinerary (one way) has to be entered at a time to avoid the chance of un-marrying a married segment.
HTB.

Maybe a no-go for LH agents but every experienced TA would do it exactly like that. And if Amadeus makes an autoprocing for the Itin then, so what?

I totally agree that LH's customer service doesn't deserve that name anymore and that the cluelessness of some agents, usually combined with a considerable level of attitude, is getting worse every day.

But I really doubt that a ticket sold by the HOn Circle team would be more expensive than online as long as they would use 100 % the same booking classes and fare codes like you did do online.

The problem is that they are sometimes simply not able to get you into those cheaper booking classes.
As everybody knows, LH is not only offering much better Business-Class fares from anywhere else than from Germany but they also adjust the availability of the cheaper booking classes by the point of sale.
Which means, that when you call LH in UK, Italy or Netherlands they might still see Z/P Availability, but for the
german call center (POS=DE) the Z/P buckets are zeroed out and therefore they can only sell you D or C.

This is exactly what they are trying to say in their reply (in german I would say: herumeiern) and that drives up the price.

Would be interesting to know if this practise is in compliance with EU regulations.

Well I was referring to the HON-call-center, which is always the same number from wherever I call. In the past the call-center was in Kassel, then it went to Istanbul, then S-Africa, then Berlin. Currently I think only Berlin and S-Africa is working. So the price-list they have is not linked to a special nation.

Now I'm a HON for some years, and in the past I never ever had this differences in the prices, but lately I had it more often. Maybe I was just extremely unlucky?

Well I was referring to the HON-call-center, which is always the same number from wherever I call. In the past the call-center was in Kassel, then it went to Istanbul, then S-Africa, then Berlin. Currently I think only Berlin and S-Africa is working. So the price-list they have is not linked to a special nation.

Now I'm a HON for some years, and in the past I never ever had this differences in the prices, but lately I had it more often. Maybe I was just extremely unlucky?

Istanbul is working right now.

Hope you never get South Africa on a call.

If you are talking about ex-Italy the prices have indeed increased significantly (see the revenue management thread) primarily due to zeroing out all classes except C and J on some flights (I am referring to business class- don't know about economy).

Istanbul is working right now.

Hope you never get South Africa on a call.

If you are talking about ex-Italy the prices have indeed increased significantly (see the revenue management thread) primarily due to zeroing out all classes except C and J on some flights (I am referring to business class- don't know about economy).

S-Africa:))) well I still wonder how many things could go wrong there once in a booking.

1 hour ago I just booked a flight to LAX for Saturday, I got D and this time the delta to internet was just around 100 euro, so acceptable.

S-Africa:))) well I still wonder how many things could go wrong there once in a booking.

1 hour ago I just booked a flight to LAX for Saturday, I got D and this time the delta to internet was just around 100 euro, so acceptable.

Good news.

If you need a good travel agent for corporate travel in NE Italy PM me and I will send you some details on a potential contact for you.

Isn't that what LH is doing by cutting down the number of HONs: handing out their top elites to competitors on a silver plate :D

This is possible , but how many of the HON's are top revenue and more importantly top profit for LH ?

Maybe a no-go for LH agents but every experienced TA would do it exactly like that. And if Amadeus makes an autoprocing for the Itin then, so what?

The moment you build an itin the married segment rule kicks in and destroys the availability you found segment by segment. If you trick the system, LH will fine you as a TA. They are not stupid, especially since Altea came into place.

This is possible , but how many of the HON's are top revenue and more importantly top profit for LH ?

Probably not so much otherwise they would travel with their private-jet instead of ....

BUT if you ask how many of the HONs are decision makers and influence the opinion between other employes and friends, well probably the most.

BUT if you ask how many of the HONs are decision makers and influence the opinion between other employes and friends, well probably the most.

I believe you would be surprised:eek:

Well, the HONs I know at work may be decision makers, but don't influence travel policy or advise people to fly the LH group, in fact they refuse to waive the +100€ limit for direct LH/*A vs EK/QR/AF-KL/etc for regular employees.

The HONs I know (in person) via FT/VFT are all together low yield and unattractive to LH or for that matter its competition, as they shop around.

...
The HONs I know (in person) via FT/VFT are all together low yield and unattractive to LH or for that matter its competition, as they shop around.

Is this your own opinion or LH opinion ?

Is this your own opinion or LH opinion ?
My own. I may be deluded, but don't think I think like LH :p

Of course the urban legend has it that LH tracks and traces the HONs who post here... dream on :)

My own. I may be deluded, but don't think I think like LH :p

Of course the urban legend has it that LH tracks and traces the HONs who post here... dream on :)

I couldn't care less if LH tracks or traces FTers or not - I post nothing here I wouldn't or haven't told several LH board members in person. :D:p

Well, the HONs I know at work may be decision makers, but don't influence travel policy or advise people to fly the LH group, in fact they refuse to waive the +100€ limit for direct LH/*A vs EK/QR/AF-KL/etc for regular employees.

The HONs I know (in person) via FT/VFT are all together low yield and unattractive to LH or for that matter its competition, as they shop around.

Well, interesting statement! But at this point why do they not kill simply the project, a clear cut would create probably less critics.

Anyway thank you all for expressing your ideas, it helped me to organize better my ideas.

Well, the HONs I know at work may be decision makers, but don't influence travel policy or advise people to fly the LH group, in fact they refuse to waive the +100€ limit for direct LH/*A vs EK/QR/AF-KL/etc for regular employees.

HON Circle may not influence travel policies but they are for sure opinion leaders that people listen to.

The HONs I know (in person) via FT/VFT are all together low yield and unattractive to LH or for that matter its competition, as they shop around.

If you shop around AND maintain HON, chances are you are a very attractive customer. Maintaining 600,000 miles flown every two years on LH only with full pricing control by LH for those miles and the ability of still flying other carriers you are for sure not sitting at home all year waiting for the next 1.111-EUR-Deal...

LH can't stand price-sensitive people though and has no interest in making people happy that travel without a company budget. For corporate accounts, pricing matters less and quality of the product is not really taken into consideration.

That strategy has worked very well in the past and time will tell how long LH can dream on that this will never come to an end.

The HONs I know (in person) via FT/VFT are all together low yield and unattractive to LH or for that matter its competition, as they shop around.

i highly doubt that, two of them i know are anything but low yield...

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies, without asking his TA/travel office to use the WL to get D confimed on sold out flights etc. This is definitely high yield. Again, there might be some HONs posting here who do that, but personally I have not met them yet.

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies, without asking his TA/travel office to use the WL to get D confimed on sold out flights etc. This is definitely high yield. Again, there might be some HONs posting here who do that, but personally I have not met them yet.

A couple of years ago I met in Hollywood the son of a very famous movie-director. He told me that as child when they behaved well they could use daddy's private jet, BUT if they behaved badly they where punished to fly First Class.

On the subject:
Nobody who produces and sells products gets exited about the customer who shops around to find better deals. On the other side personally I believe strongly that to be a successful entrepreneur or higher leveled manager you need to be almost foolishly fallen in love with your customers regardless of the level of price-sensitivity they have.

[...]On the other side personally I believe strongly that to be a successful entrepreneur or higher leveled manager you need to be almost foolishly fallen in love with your customers regardless of the level of price-sensitivity they have.

back to my earlier point - in LH case: does a CEO (with a heavy financial background) love his customers OR his general ledger? Where's the balance of focus between customers vs balanced scorecard?

mfk

back to my earlier point - in LH case: does a CEO (with a heavy financial background) love his customers OR his general ledger? Where's the balance of focus between customers vs balanced scorecard?

mfk

I think it was the CEO from GE who said once something like: "The only part a CEO can never delegate to anybody is the contact with the customer"

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies, without asking his TA/travel office to use the WL to get D confimed on sold out flights etc. This is definitely high yield. Again, there might be some HONs posting here who do that, but personally I have not met them yet.

Honestly, I can not understand you here.
Assume that there is the complete opposite: A person who flies only on V or Q fares and makes HON.
Why should this not be a highly profitable customer for LH??

Except from flying ex FRA/MUC (where the person could make use of FCL/FCT and produces some more costs), this person does not generate much costs to LH than any other person owning an Aegean Airlines Star Gold Status!!?? The evouchers are only confirmed once there would be an empty seat otherwise in C. And he would spend sooooo much money on LH only for their economy product. Why shouldn't this be a really great customer??

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies, without asking his TA/travel office to use the WL to get D confimed on sold out flights etc. This is definitely high yield. Again, there might be some HONs posting here who do that, but personally I have not met them yet.

Interesting point of view.

In other words- LH would like the "unicorn" customer. As with the pot of gold, the leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, the winning of the lottery- it is simply unrealistic.

I was out for dinner last night with a very frequent traveller who has a few hundred regular travelling employees- he was super annoyed as a HON that another passenger got upgraded HKG/FRA from C to F ahead of him because they had a higher fare class even though they were FTL.

IF LH group wants to award only on higher revenue customers as measured transactionally- they really should just cancel the Frequent Flyer program right now altogether and set something that awards on marginality.

Rarely do we disagree- however your analysis that HON circle customers are low yield and not attractive differs significantly from mine- it could be that you are correct- however it is completely different information than the CFO of Lufthansa gave me at a dinner last year in Hamburg.

Cheers

Honestly, I can not understand you here.
Assume that there is the complete opposite: A person who flies only on V or Q fares and makes HON.
Why should this not be a highly profitable customer for LH??

Except from flying ex FRA/MUC (where the person could make use of FCL/FCT and produces some more costs), this person does not generate much costs to LH than any other person owning an Aegean Airlines Star Gold Status!!?? The evouchers are only confirmed once there would be an empty seat otherwise in C. And he would spend sooooo much money on LH only for their economy product. Why shouldn't this be a really great customer??

He is indeed a really great customer. Always paying relatively high mid-week fares in Economy Class which (as no free middle seat is part of the Eco product) can be filled up with 3-3 compared to the Business Class with 2-2.

And the same humble seat pitch. As these higher fare classes of Economy Class (Y,B,M,K) are often not dicounted 33% against the C,D fares he delivers more margin for every flight!

In terms of profit contribution the flexible HON Eco traveller in SH/MH is delivering the highest possible profit margin.



So *my assumption* is that they have bought some "great" advice at a consulting firm knowing really nothing about air travel. Can assume some great names. ;)

They will take their classic instrument box of cost-cutting and staff-axing from customer to customer. And one of the measures which are the easiest ones to implement is: Cost reduction. :confused:

So they get huge paybacks by the customer (the airline buying their "services"). Maybe based on "reached" cost reductions, maybe based on some other criteria. Naturally the annoying of customers and the migration of them is not measured by any statistics they deliver.

First step before "consulting" a target company is to slash nearly all of the regional sales/customer service representatives and installing a dedicated service provider. He will overflood the management with senseless statistics, complaints. And naturally their surveys are using terms and questions not reflecting the reality. So the first step is: Build an artificial wall between the customer and the company. Called the "Verl wall".

And in the long run they can destroy the reputation of the inner core and values of ANY of their consulted companies. :mad:

But no harm to the cost cutters and "consulters": The next step of advice is waiting for the use on hundreds of customers.

Then called: Business rebuilding, Hire an architect for remodelling the company.

Waiting in the "refrigerator" for use since 2009, e.g. here: :-:

http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Rebuilding_corporate_reputations_2367

But don´t forget the intermediate step in order to enable your staff to operate all the issues: Control the mess/control the crazy.

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies,

It is NO problem to pay higher fare buckets. But first let LH have a better C class seat then we will stop whining about their unjust fares.

I strongly believe that LH C class seat does not worth more than what many flyers grabbed it last year at the special sale of euro 1,111.

LH current C class seat is amongst the worst in the industry comparing it to CX or SQ or BA or even their sister company LX and if you notice all flyers they try to grab a C ticket at a discounted price and the aim is to upgrade it to First ;)

I think it was the CEO from GE who said once something like: "The only part a CEO can never delegate to anybody is the contact with the customer"

can't agree more but does HE know about it? :)

mfk

Interesting point of view.

In other words- LH would like the "unicorn" customer. As with the pot of gold, the leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, the winning of the lottery- it is simply unrealistic.

I'm pretty certain there are 2000 or so customers like the one described above among the 16 million who fly LH Group each year and that is what they are looking for.

Of course the V fare HON sebfra describes is profitable too, but they want to award HON to the ultra pr:rolleyes:fitable leprechaun. Life goes on...:D

In terms of profit contribution the flexible HON Eco traveller in SH/MH is delivering the highest possible profit margin.

That's me :) But it seems they don't love me anymore, because my travel policy says Y only for EMEA and that will not change... but because of that policy I often get the most expensive Y class fares due to my last minute trips. And also that will not change.

That's me :) But it seems they don't love me anymore, because my travel policy says Y only for EMEA and that will not change... but because of that policy I often get the most expensive Y class fares due to my last minute trips. And also that will not change.

:(

Sorry to hear this.

Two ways to make this travel pattern more bearable:
1.) I think Oliver2002 has opened a great threat with the topic of the New OS Upselling policy in selling upgrades from 149 Euro for European travel. So in case of extremely fully booked flights this would be an option for some flights.
2.) Just add up your last years revenue stream and start letters directly to members of LH's board of directors. Both as an eye opener and enabling them to have a look into the reality of air travel. Be sure to send a letter directly to the Corporate HQ and jump over the Customer annoyance ah service centre.

Maybe this helps the management to have a clearer view on their business decisions. Would really appreciate if they extend the HON membership using the old qualification rules. ;)

Be sure to send a letter directly to the Corporate HQ and jump over the Customer annoyance ah service centre.


HQ just sends them over to customer relations... many many many try to outsmart the regular channels and send a letter to the CEO each day ;)

It is NO problem to pay higher fare buckets. But first let LH have a better C class seat then we will stop whining about their unjust fares.

I strongly believe that LH C class seat does not worth more than what many flyers grabbed it last year at the special sale of euro 1,111.

LH current C class seat is amongst the worst in the industry comparing it to CX or SQ or BA or even their sister company LX and if you notice all flyers they try to grab a C ticket at a discounted price and the aim is to upgrade it to First ;)

Why whine? Just don't use them ;)

I believe that the old C is not even worth the $1,500 they sold it for.. but unfortunately a lot of people are willing to pay a lot more.. so it will take
a) a lot of customer decrease to get C fares that are worth it and
b) a long time to complete the rollout of the new C as enough people fly the old one still..

Any bets on A) not happening ?

HQ just sends them over to customer relations... many many many try to outsmart the regular channels and send a letter to the CEO each day ;)

Ummm.. you really call sending a letter to LHs CEO "outsmarting" :D ? I would rather call that.. brillant selfown ?

HQ just sends them over to customer relations... many many many try to outsmart the regular channels and send a letter to the CEO each day ;)

But you can be sure that at "the receiving end" of this transmission there is a real human being assisting/working for one of the managers of the Board. ;)

Some years ago I tried this with Hartmut Mehdorn´s Deutsche Bahn and got a response by a human far exceeding the usual blablabla E-Mails. :o

So for alfahund it would be a time good invested.

And in the case of his travel pattern it would be really worth to contact this "human-being assistant to the manager" next year or whenever his status ends for a "status match".

Besides that I have no idea for a wake-up call from Alfahund to LHs management. :confused:

:(

Sorry to hear this.

Two ways to make this travel pattern more bearable:
1.) I think Oliver2002 has opened a great threat with the topic of the New OS Upselling policy in selling upgrades from 149 Euro for European travel. So in case of extremely fully booked flights this would be an option for some flights.
2.) Just add up your last years revenue stream and start letters directly to members of LH's board of directors. Both as an eye opener and enabling them to have a look into the reality of air travel. Be sure to send a letter directly to the Corporate HQ and jump over the Customer annoyance ah service centre.

Maybe this helps the management to have a clearer view on their business decisions. Would really appreciate if they extend the HON membership using the old qualification rules. ;)

1. I find 149 Euro for OS far too much! Not worth it. That would be 149 x 100 flights out my own pocket? Why would I do that?
2. I sent them several letters, they know. But they don't care.

And BTW, LX is still holding up the good old HON Circle... last 4 flights - 4 upgrades (last week), always a call from customer care when something goes wrong plus sensible compensation without any argument... a pity that they will not be able to keep it up if the cost savings saga continues...

I'm pretty certain there are 2000 or so customers like the one described above among the 16 million who fly LH Group each year and that is what they are looking for.

Of course the V fare HON sebfra describes is profitable too, but they want to award HON to the ultra pr:rolleyes:fitable leprechaun. Life goes on...:D

Probably they are 2000 customers like that, but how many of them would fly 600.000 miles in 2 years exclusively with LH?

Anyway, I think you pointed to something very interesting: when I first time became a HON, many, many years ago, I was surprised to receive invitations to shows where very high priced luxury products where sold. I love luxury products, and have fun to buy sometimes toys, but why did LH think I would need them to get into that field? You really don't need to be a HON to buy a Ferrari!

One thing is living the fun of luxury and an other thing is to suffer while walking in FRA from terminal C to A to catch the connection flight. As HON I always hoped to get help in the second part and I would not care after a bad intercontinental night-flight to be escorted in this case also in a SMART.

But beside my provocative statement, the question is really open: should the HON status "in primes":
a) satisfy the practical needs of the FT
b) protect the VIP-image which for sure many people have

Could it be that LH pointed to b) and has now problems to deal with a)???

I'm pretty certain there are 2000 or so customers like the one described above among the 16 million who fly LH Group each year and that is what they are looking for.


Agreed , and I would guess that was a typical HON of the 2000 or so when hon was implemented. I can not believe it is so difficult to understand that these are the HONs LH want to reward and nurse , not the 6000 or so cheapo HONs .
Makes sense to me ;)

But beside my provocative statement, the question is really open: should the HON status "in primes":
a) satisfy the practical needs of the FT
b) protect the VIP-image which for sure many people have

Could it be that LH pointed to b) and has now problems to deal with a)???

I guess you can take that for granted. LH does not want a)

Agreed , and I would guess that was a typical HON of the 2000 or so when hon was implemented. I can not believe it is so difficult to understand that these are the HONs LH want to reward and nurse , not the 6000 or so cheapo HONs .
Makes sense to me ;)

Maybe somebody could explain me why in that case LH simply didn't choose to award ONLY the FirstClass passengers? HON is who pays 20 FC intercontinental tickets a year. This would have made much more sense then. The message would be clear and no cheapo would have entered into that club.

Maybe somebody could explain me why in that case LH simply didn't choose to award ONLY the FirstClass passengers? HON is who pays 20 FC intercontinental tickets a year. This would have made much more sense then. The message would be clear and no cheapo would have entered into that club.

I think your approach is not correct. If you set up impressive hardware for this "exclusive Club" like HON (First) Lounges you need a specific MINIMUM number of members. This enables you to deliver perfect services without e.g. every morning throwing away the remaining items of the extensive breakfast selection.

Therefore my approach would be to start an exclusive club of all those who are often on board the aircrafts. This would include the "movers/shakers" of the CEO type similarly to those who are daily on the road and living between two cities.

And with the numbers growíng the revenue stream arises. And on the long run I can build up an even more impressive VIP/HON building and multiply revenues and keep F-Class and dedicated services on the major outstations.

This would mean a standard and everytimeeveryseateveryflight available Business Class fare anyhwere between C and D (my controllers would calculate the percentage for me). ;)

Furthermore I could start with an impressive cross-selling facility selling these high-yield passengers also the related services. This "German-based" relationship centre then would be financed by commissions of the hotels. They would be the most experienced reservation-shifters and connection-guaranteers of the whole network.

To make it short: Such an exclusive club needs a MINIMUM number of members not a reduction of the maximum number involved.

I think your approach is not correct. If you set up impressive hardware for this "exclusive Club" like HON (First) Lounges you need a specific MINIMUM number of members. This enables you to deliver perfect services without e.g. every morning throwing away the remaining items of the extensive breakfast selection.

Therefore my approach would be to start an exclusive club of all those who are often on board the aircrafts. This would include the "movers/shakers" of the CEO type similarly to those who are daily on the road and living between two cities.

And with the numbers growíng the revenue stream arises. And on the long run I can build up an even more impressive VIP/HON building and multiply revenues and keep F-Class and dedicated services on the major outstations.

This would mean a standard and everytimeeveryseateveryflight available Business Class fare anyhwere between C and D (my controllers would calculate the percentage for me). ;)

Furthermore I could start with an impressive cross-selling facility selling these high-yield passengers also the related services. This "German-based" relationship centre then would be financed by commissions of the hotels. They would be the most experienced reservation-shifters and connection-guaranteers of the whole network.

To make it short: Such an exclusive club needs a MINIMUM number of members not a reduction of the maximum number involved.

Sounds all very nice to me, but this would not be luxury! If (!) you aim to the luxury customer, you have to throw away 4-5-6 times a day the remaining food from the buffet. Actually put quality food on the desk which is not mostly from the supermarket.

I mean: LH should decide or to flirt with the luxury concept and be fanatic in the quality of everything, or decide to service the need of the customers who use the plane for work. Today for me it's more something what in Italian is called "ne pesce, ne carne" (neither fish nor meet)

Well, LH wants their HON to be this C/F travelling person who buys LH Group regardless of price, ie F/A/J/C/D where ever he flies, without asking his TA/travel office to use the WL to get D confimed on sold out flights etc. This is definitely high yield...

I'm pretty certain there are 2000 or so customers like the one described above among the 16 million who fly LH Group each year and that is what they are looking for...

if that was really 100% true, why don't they make it a invitation program!? i know they want to lose some HONs but they don't want to cut too much. i personally will get to the 600k again, and i fly mainly Z/D ex somewhere. so the sept. changes don't affect me much.

what i do see though is that they piss of HONs all over the place right now. i hear it almost every time when i'm in FRA from PAs that i know for some years now. i'm certain that there is a few of so called high yield HONs that are not happy right now...

if that was really 100% true, why don't they make it a invitation program!?

I was having the same thought. The reason why they did not make it an invitation only program was that published criteria were an incentive to put all flights on LH metal: By giving a guarantee to award HON at a certain mileage count, a lot of people were willing to accept that prices were higher than competition and product quality is not that important. It has proven to be an extremely powerful tool: Instead of the envisioned 2,000 member, HON Circle became a club of 8,000. What Lufthansa did not like was that a lot of HON Circle members were extremely savvy when it came to fares and price per mile paid: The average turn-over per HON is ways below what they had calculated and they felt they had to readjust the program.

As the total numbers of HON fell to 6,000 as per March of this year, I am not sure why they are still ruining their best loyalty asset at this speed. Once they are down to 3,000 HON, these 'exclusive' HONs will then still raise a couple of questions: why is service so bad, why don't I get a decent line to call, why are there almost no benefits over HON, why are you giving upgrades to people with no status just because they bought a higher booking class for one particular flight only.

LH will reduce the number of HON to those who reach HON by accident anyway and those HON won't actively increase the number of flights flown to make it to HON again. But if I have a program with 'passive' members only, why do I have a program in the first place?

HON is a carrot to increase engagement with LH and without the carrot being attractive that won't work. Consultants might have calculated that reducing the number of HON by 5,000 with an average turnover of 25,000 EUR p.a. for those low-yield HON is just 125 million EUR turnover a year at stake and if one assumes that 50% of that business will still stick on not go anywhere else, then 'cleaning up' might be of very little financial risk.

I believe that HON Circle members are a great multiplier and can influence a number of people to fly or not to fly LH. But more important is the bottom line result will move a lot more: while LH's operational margin at the moment is close to zero, I would believe that HON Circle members represent a turn-over with a very juicy operational margin. While removing 125 million of turn-over compared to a 20 billion EUR operation looks tiny, 60 million EUR of bottom-line result jeopardized looks different to me.

Instead of the envisioned 2,000 member, HON Circle became a club of 8,000. What Lufthansa did not like was that a lot of HON Circle members were extremely savvy when it came to fares and price per mile paid: The average turn-over per HON is ways below what they had calculated and they felt they had to readjust the program.


I fully agree with your observations and conclusions. One thing that puzzles me is that they behave like a HON is such a financial burden. What exactly makes a HON so expense to the airline? The few schnitzel they have to cook more in the lounge? Some more luggage traveling HON Priority? Some more 5 minute limo rides? It's not that those 8000 HON all travel every day together from the same airport and jam the whole system.

I mean were talking here about services and infrastructure that is anyway there for first class passengers. And if a service is not available to First Class then also a HON will not get it, like escort on some airports.

So what's the problem of having 8000 HONs?

I mean were talking here about services and infrastructure that is anyway there for first class passengers. And if a service is not available to First Class then also a HON will not get it, like escort on some airports.


Actually there are services which are not available to F pax but to HON, especially on arrival.

So what's the problem of having 8000 HONs?

* Lounge space FCL/FCT (sometimes crowded so high yield PAX feel uncomfortable and annoyed)
* PAs at the Lounge (1 PA can only handle x PAX, reducing PAX means reducing PAs means saving money)
* Call Center (less HON means less Agents means reducing cost)
* PAs at remote stations (arriving in SIN/BKK/KUL sometimes I'd 1-3 PAs waiting for HONs, reducing HONs means reducing PAs....)
* Operational costs (each HON gets a gift, mailings etc.)
* SEN partner card
* Award booking guarantee
* ...

Agreed , and I would guess that was a typical HON of the 2000 or so when hon was implemented. I can not believe it is so difficult to understand that these are the HONs LH want to reward and nurse , not the 6000 or so cheapo HONs .
Makes sense to me ;)

Some of the original 2.000 first generation HONs were quite savvy with fare pricing back then too!

I think I was a HON member for almost 8 years (interrupted 1 year because of a bad sickness), and honestly, even if I force my brain to the limits, I cannot find enough reasons to do anything to regain the status again.

As frequent-flyer I have very little basic needs:
1) flexible call-center
2) help in connection-flights
3) possibility to relax when I had to wait longer inbetween flight
4) privileges in bookings


Honestly, I don't get your complaint. You are telling us that you need only a basic service (points 1 to 4) and on the same time you are complaining that the HON status doesn't give you REAL benefits.

Well, I agree with you that there is almost no REAL special service. And that is the reason why I won't continue to be loyal to the LH group. I will let my HON status run out and then start to chose the cheapest flights, regardless of the Alliance.

I purchased already an American Express Platinum card which comes with two Priority Club passes.

It is true that LH has introduced many setbacks for their HONs in the last couple of years, but still HON is one of the best recognition FF program in the airline industry.

Maybe you are right. Maybe it is still one of the best. And nevertheless, it's simply baaaaaad (compared to a top tier status with a hotel chain).

* Lounge space FCL/FCT (sometimes crowded so high yield PAX feel uncomfortable and annoyed)

What? How do you know all those annoying PAX are HON? There are also annoying people flying F. Besides that, don't see a direct financial impact.


* PAs at the Lounge (1 PA can only handle x PAX, reducing PAX means reducing PAs means saving money)
* Call Center (less HON means less Agents means reducing cost)
* PAs at remote stations (arriving in SIN/BKK/KUL sometimes I'd 1-3 PAs waiting for HONs, reducing HONs means reducing PAs....)


Sure you might be able to reduce 5,6 ... 10 people. What's to gain? Half a million?


* Operational costs (each HON gets a gift, mailings etc.)
* SEN partner card
* Award booking guarantee


Come on, that's absurd. I am talking about what significant costs a HON creates for LH. Sending out a 20 Euro gift to some thousand people will not kill them. 8000 info letters neither. And they can also drop both and nobody will be angry.

Guys, don't get me wrong. Maybe I just don't see it. But I'm thinking several thousand HON less must mean some loss in revenue, SMK77 was calculating 60 million. This compared to maybe one million they save on services by reducing HON. That's weird.

* Lounge space FCL/FCT (sometimes crowded so high yield PAX feel uncomfortable and annoyed)

this only holds true for MUC, never seen the FCT, FCL A or B crowded since at least 2 years...

* PAs at the Lounge (1 PA can only handle x PAX, reducing PAX means reducing PAs means saving money)

but less PAs with less HONs will mean NO better service

* Call Center (less HON means less Agents means reducing cost)

again, less agents, NO service improvement and the level at the moment is mostly unacceptable...

* PAs at remote stations (arriving in SIN/BKK/KUL sometimes I'd 1-3 PAs waiting for HONs, reducing HONs means reducing PAs....)

make better (more efficient) use of them on stations where they can't help with immigration anyway then...

* Operational costs (each HON gets a gift, mailings etc.)

cut the gifts then, i'm sure no one would mind not getting a keychain, better to bring back the birthday voucher which cost them absolutely nothing!

* SEN partner card

how many partnercard holders really travel without the HON and wouldn't hold status!? my guess is that group is very small, let alone the cost for it...

* Award booking guarantee

that probably costs them some money, but how substantial could that be?! the ones who make HON without any runs are probably the only ones making use of this. all the fun HONs need to keep flying revenue tickets or they wont make the 600k...

* Lounge space FCL/FCT (sometimes crowded so high yield PAX feel uncomfortable and annoyed)
* PAs at the Lounge (1 PA can only handle x PAX, reducing PAX means reducing PAs means saving money)
* Call Center (less HON means less Agents means reducing cost)
* PAs at remote stations (arriving in SIN/BKK/KUL sometimes I'd 1-3 PAs waiting for HONs, reducing HONs means reducing PAs....)
* Operational costs (each HON gets a gift, mailings etc.)
* SEN partner card
* Award booking guarantee
* ...

Lounge space: This can be fixed by excluding domestic and European flights in Y. SQ allows only F tickets holders into their 'Private Room' at Changi. Solitaire need to use the regular First Class lounge.

Call Center: They have already discontinued special services for HON and even HON are routed into the regular call centers. They need to spend more money again on this, regardless of how many HON they wanna have in 2014.

PA at FCL/FCT: I could do without them. They might only offer them to First Class pax as well.

PA at remote stations: Remove the benefit and offer it for a 50 EUR fee. After one year LH will easily figure out where PA makes sense because HON would only pay for them when they see a real benefit. At most stations, arrival PA is not useful at all.

SEN card / Awards guarantee: Not much different from SEN today anyway, I don't see much reason to review this.

PA at remote stations: Remove the benefit and offer it for a 50 EUR fee. After one year LH will easily figure out where PA makes sense because HON would only pay for them when they see a real benefit. At most stations, arrival PA is not useful at all.



In ORD and LAX it is the best thing you will get upon arrival at these two crowded airports. I would pay much more than Euro 50 for this service if it is to be suspended.

Honestly, I don't get your complaint. You are telling us that you need only a basic service (points 1 to 4) and on the same time you are complaining that the HON status doesn't give you REAL benefits.

Well, I agree with you that there is almost no REAL special service. And that is the reason why I won't continue to be loyal to the LH group. I will let my HON status run out and then start to chose the cheapest flights, regardless of the Alliance.

I purchased already an American Express Platinum card which comes with two Priority Club passes.

What I wanted to say its that those "basic" services are the essential ones for me as FT and not the luxury, image building add-ons. But those basic services I would expect to get as HON at the highest level:

1) flexible call-center
(a center who not only is able to answer me my questions, but advises me also to notions/facts I'm not aware of; i.e. weather forecast -to have or not to have a small umbrella is a live changing question , guess what if you have to thank LH because you have it with you, or receive a reminder of special events which can create confusion on destinations like strikes or others. I other words after all this years I would have expected that the HON-service should have grown to a level, where the call-center is my personal preflight agent for my next trip)

2) help in connection-flights
(I hate it when LH personal brings as excuses the fact that the FRA is just too big! True, its not only big but also horribly organized, a nightmare! So what? For me as businessman it would be a chance to show off how I do care about MY special customers! I don't think now about a helicopter service from terminal C to A, but even the funny golf-car would do it. Whymust LH have this extreme way of thinking: or escort with a Mercedes 300 luxury, or nothing! But beside Terminal C, generally I would except to see somebody waiting on the intercontinental arrival-gates for the HON members just to verify if anybody of the HONs, after a log trip, need anything, and pack them into a small bus, bring them quickly through a short custom control and then to the further terminal.)

3) possibility to relax when I had to wait longer in-between flight
(How many things could be done here:))

4) privileges in bookings
(often the term cheapo and low yield HONs where mentioned here. I have full understanding that LH gives a higher booking guaranty to customers who pay more for the same ticket, but I do not have any understanding if sales people are not trained to advice and offer their customers the best price-combinations. Personally I'm the owner of a smaller software house. When I would find out that one of my salesperson, just to get a higher sales statistics, would hide to a customer a deal, this person would get immediately fired! Yes, as HON I do expect that LH's salesperson offer me the best price combination and just because of this "cheapo" mentality I do consider myself a very high yield customer! )

Are this all dreams?

In ORD and LAX it is the best thing you will get upon arrival at these two crowded airports. I would pay much more than Euro 50 for this service if it is to be suspended.

My curiosity: what does PA in LAX do for you? There used to be this beautiful nordish blond girl C. who helped you to jump the waiting lines, but since she got twice mother there is now nobody like her. Now they pick you up at the gate and leave you at the waiting line of the custom. Also today I had to wait about 40 minutes:(((

Today happened something very unexpected, something what didn't happen since years to me: I had a flight booked (D) from VCE to LAX. During boarding in FRA I got the information that I was upgraded for free to FirstClass.

Maybe it was just a coincidence, but maybe, as I started this thread, LH choose an elegant way to show that they are listening what we are discussing.

Probably I'm just too romantic, but I wanted to share this fact anyway.

Lounge space: This can be fixed by excluding domestic and European flights in Y. SQ allows only F tickets holders into their 'Private Room' at Changi. Solitaire need to use the regular First Class lounge.

PA at FCL/FCT: I could do without them. They might only offer them to First Class pax as well.

PA at remote stations: Remove the benefit and offer it for a 50 EUR fee. After one year LH will easily figure out where PA makes sense because HON would only pay for them when they see a real benefit. At most stations, arrival PA is not useful at all.

SEN card / Awards guarantee: Not much different from SEN today anyway, I don't see much reason to review this.

What's the benefit of being HON if all those perks you mention suddenly cost money or being removed? F lounge access and PA at remote stations are IMHO still the most useful and noticeable advantages over SEN.

Today happened something very unexpected, something what didn't happen since years to me: I had a flight booked (D) from VCE to LAX. During boarding in FRA I got the information that I was upgraded for free to FirstClass.

Maybe it was just a coincidence, but maybe, as I started this thread, LH choose an elegant way to show that they are listening what we are discussing.

Probably I'm just too romantic, but I wanted to share this fact anyway.

Dream on... ! ;)

What's the benefit of being HON if all those perks you mention suddenly cost money or being removed? F lounge access and PA at remote stations are IMHO still the most useful and noticeable advantages over SEN.

PA would be a useful benefit if they were using good people and there is an arrangement with the airport in place for preferred treatment.

If you ever bought a welcome service, you wouldn't have missed the huge gap between LH's 'for free service' and a paid offer. Nice gesture of LH but most often useless. Most HON in most cases just leave the PA at the gate.

Dream on... ! ;)

Looks like they can't get J and C sold anymore ;-)

Looks like they can't get J and C sold anymore ;-)

That's what I thought too...:D

Looks like they can't get J and C sold anymore ;-)

Exactly.

Probably I'm just too romantic, but I wanted to share this fact anyway.

Here is a candle for your romantic trip back in Y (they will downgrade you to keep the balance on your C tickets)...


(\
.'.
| |
| |
|_|

Here is a candle for your romantic trip back in Y (they will downgrade you to keep the balance on your C tickets)...


(\
.'.
| |
| |
|_|

well:)))))

Here is a candle for your romantic trip back in Y (they will downgrade you to keep the balance on your C tickets)...


(\
.'.
| |
| |
|_|

no open fire allowed onboard; send a torch...

;)

Funny thing is that this weekend I received a nice letter which fits very well to this thread:

Air France now offers a VIP service, based in FRA, including a Frankfurt based telephone number, offering some of the discussed services here.

Whilst LH is reducing all kind of services and is producing a lot of problems, some competiting airlines seem to listen to the LH customers very well right now :)

Will see how this developes. Have some upcoming flights to SIN, were the service in C was completely crazy bad during the last flights. Not even was it possible to be addressed by name etc. Depending on these next flights I will decide if it is a good decision to give 20% more money to LH then to another airline, which offers nice service etc....

A friend of mine has handed in a complaint to HON Circle noting that the management decisions to devalue HON (especially around the new upgrade hierarchy) have reached the mindset not only of domestic and European crews but now also those on international flights where HON (in C) are basically totally ignored as well.

Taking away the monetary HON benefits has sent a strong signal to cabin crew saying 'not worth bothering' and this message seem to have been very eagerly accepted by a number of purser and cabin crew already.

A friend of mine has handed in a complaint to HON Circle noting that the management decisions to devalue HON (especially around the new upgrade hierarchy) have reached the mindset not only of domestic and European crews but now also those on international flights where HON (in C) are basically totally ignored as well.

Taking away the monetary HON benefits has sent a strong signal to cabin crew saying 'not worth bothering' and this message seem to have been very eagerly accepted by a number of purser and cabin crew already.

Wow- that was unexpected...

Taking away the monetary HON benefits has sent a strong signal to cabin crew saying 'not worth bothering' and this message seem to have been very eagerly accepted by a number of purser and cabin crew already.

Isn't that a well known fact for a long time that the management of LH doesn't bother to listen to its customers and they implement only what they think is right for them ignoring all complaints ;)

Isn't that a well known fact for a long time that the management of LH doesn't bother to listen to its customers and they implement only what they think is right for them ignoring all complaints ;)

Why *should* the management of LH bother to listen to its customers?

As long as the flights are full they do everything right.

...that the management decisions to devalue HON (especially around the new upgrade hierarchy) have reached the mindset not only of domestic and European crews but now also those on international flights where HON (in C) are basically totally ignored as well.
Not true on LX even on intra-European flights in C and Y. A bottle of water in Y, extra chocolate, etc.

Not true on LX even on intra-European flights in C and Y. A bottle of water in Y, extra chocolate, etc.

Correct, LX always acknowledge, but on LH intra European not once this year :td:

I have seen very different HON-treatment on board -- from personal greeting by the purser, magazines, C-drinks served in a real glas, etc. in Y over menus with a hand-written "welcome aboard" on it in C to flights where I had no personal greeting and just the regular, efficient and "boardering on unfriendly and arrogant" LH service.

I guess HON-service is as everything with Lufthansa: No standardization, just depending on how seriously the Pursers and FAs take their job ...

I guess HON-service is as everything with Lufthansa: No standardization, just depending on how seriously the Pursers and FAs take their job ...

And exactly this is the problem. Every big company has some witten regulations and the staff has to follow them, if they like or not. It is simply not acceptable when everybody makes up his own rules.

"The quickest way to get rid of your customers is inconsistency in product and service."

from Jack Welsh, former CEO of GE.

And exactly this is the problem. Every big company has some witten regulations and the staff has to follow them, if they like or not. It is simply not acceptable when everybody makes up his own rules.

"The quickest way to get rid of your customers is inconsistency in product and service."

from Jack Welsh, former CEO of GE.

I don't say I disagree but Mr. Neutron should have thought not only of his customers..
Meanwhile he turned around and announced that Shareholder Value ist not the best way to manage a company...

Seems to me that this is exactly what LH does at the moment ?

LH like many others, tries to achieve something similar to the process described here:

http://ourpax.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Loyalty-matrix.png

http://ourpax.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Loyalty-matrix.png

Sadly it doesn't always work...

Most of us seem to be in the bottom left hand square and in the firing process ...

Most of us seem to be in the bottom left hand square and in the firing process ...

Good terminology "Cheap Haters". I have never been fired before- guess there is a first for everything!

I thought everyone here were high yield haters...? :D

I thought everyone here were high yield haters...? :D

+1

I thought everyone here were high yield haters...? :D

Im a cheap lover :D

Identify and get rid of the "cheap serial complainers"

How to deal with them elegantly? Stop sending them special offers. No discounts, no double points. Ignore them. It's preferable that they swamp the Internet with complaints about our high prices than about your service.

http://ourpax.com/uncategorized/ffps-stop-rewarding-the-wrong-customer-get-the-experience-right/#more-1068

Correct, LX always acknowledge, but on LH intra European not once this year :td:

LX is the airline to fly for HON. Upgrades are still possible for lower booking classes. Getting into A is no problem. They have decent F availability throughout the year. I don't have to beg for anything and I am respected as a customer - both by the management and crew.

I am not surprised that LX is constantly having a seat load factor that is 5% over LH's SLF... Congrats to the LX management that is withstanding pressure from FRA to change things to the worse.

LX is the airline to fly for HON. Upgrades are still possible for lower booking classes. Getting into A is no problem. They have decent F availability throughout the year. I don't have to beg for anything and I am respected as a customer - both by the management and crew.

I am not surprised that LX is constantly having a seat load factor that is 5% over LH's SLF... Congrats to the LX management that is withstanding pressure from FRA to change things to the worse.

+1 (Billion) ;)

LX is the airline to fly for HON. Upgrades are still possible for lower booking classes. Getting into A is no problem. They have decent F availability throughout the year. I don't have to beg for anything and I am respected as a customer - both by the management and crew.

I am not surprised that LX is constantly having a seat load factor that is 5% over LH's SLF... Congrats to the LX management that is withstanding pressure from FRA to change things to the worse.

Completely agree with everything you say. LX is the only reason why I decided to requal for HON. Now if they only would start flying to ICN... sigh

Completely agree with everything you say. LX is the only reason why I decided to requal for HON. Now if they only would start flying to ICN... sigh

+ 1 & many more routes, please ^

Now if they only would start flying to ICN... sigh

Also increase back their presence in the Middle east ^

Completely agree with everything you say. LX is the only reason why I decided to requal for HON. Now if they only would start flying to ICN... sigh

LX is not the only reason I choose LH group more than enough for HON requalification- however it is the most significant reason. The management and staff are really very good. I doubt however that:

1) FRA will leave LX alone

2) Any of the small things that are being done which seriously annoy "cheap hater" or any other name you will like to call your customers who spend 80K a year with you each will really do anything to solve the fundamental problem which is that is impossible to be both an LCC and a full service carrier at the same time. Yes- the HON which are undesired will certainly go away- however given the marginal cost associated with this it may look good in a powerpoint yet won't make an inch of difference in the P&L. Just look at the situation with Germanwings and you can understand really where the problems are- and it is not with customers using the D booking guarantee twice a year to bring their wife with them on a business trip.

3) Anyone at LH group cares less what we say on the Internet or anywhere else- witness the considerable number of articles on LH recently which made international press- ZERO changes. Not even a response.

Off to another QR flight today...

Off to another QR flight today...

And that is the bottom line ^

And that is the bottom line ^

I have not been on a Lufthansa aircraft since May 27th.

QR, IB, BA/CX even KL, AZ, and DL- but not LH. I will not pay 6000 EUR for a poor seat, the cheapest food experience in C of all the carriers, NEK, and demotivated employees (it shows a lot), and the icing on the cake- a transfer in Frankfurt??

And if "Y" tickets are so useless to the LH P&L at 800 EUR for a one hour flight- OK- I can take the 300 EUR flight with IB or BA thanks.

...and demotivated employees (it shows a lot)

i can't confirm that at all, if anything i meet a lot of LH staff that completely agrees with "us" on the current climate. i've found a lot of the pursers and FAs on recently flights making a statement in putting in extra effort to show that not all of LH is bad...

i can't confirm that at all, if anything i meet a lot of LH staff that completely agrees with "us" on the current climate. i've found a lot of the pursers and FAs on recently flights making a statement in putting in extra effort to show that not all of LH is bad...

Actually, I can second that - especially for flight crews. On some of my last flights I'd long conversations with some FAs and pursers about my decission and got more than once the feedback "we hear you, that's what we hear from others, too". Not sure if it's true, of course, but why should the lie to me?

3) Anyone at LH group cares less what we say on the Internet or anywhere else- witness the considerable number of articles on LH recently which made international press- ZERO changes. Not even a response.



Well they actually responded to one article lately. The story about the 2 indians girls being stuck.... Great sense of priority for LH...

I have not been on a Lufthansa aircraft since May 27th.

QR, IB, BA/CX even KL, AZ, and DL- but not LH. I will not pay 6000 EUR for a poor seat, the cheapest food experience in C of all the carriers, NEK, and demotivated employees (it shows a lot), and the icing on the cake- a transfer in Frankfurt??

And if "Y" tickets are so useless to the LH P&L at 800 EUR for a one hour flight- OK- I can take the 300 EUR flight with IB or BA thanks.

based on the new business model that LH is adapting: You are catogrized by LH as someone who is looking for a low price not someone who will fly LH brand at any price.

Then LH wouldn't mind loosing your business and take away your HON card ;)

based on the new business model that LH is adapting: You are catogrized by LH as someone who is looking for a low price not someone who will fly LH brand at any price.

Then LH wouldn't mind loosing your business and take away your HON card ;)

I have a feeling that the group of passengers they are looking for (i.e. oblivious to market pricing) is smaller than they think it is ...
Good luck hunting though !

i can't confirm that at all, if anything i meet a lot of LH staff that completely agrees with "us" on the current climate. i've found a lot of the pursers and FAs on recently flights making a statement in putting in extra effort to show that not all of LH is bad...

I tip off my hat to any employee doing a great job and HONoring loyalty with Lufthansa. That makes the difference between a good employee and a lousy management: getting it right.

The number of HONs noting that service levels are dropping are not just anecdotal, it seems that on more and more flights HON don't get any attention anymore. I got that feedback from all HONs I know and I tested the water TXL-MUC myself and came to the same result.

I tip off my hat to any employee doing a great job and HONoring loyalty with Lufthansa. That makes the difference between a good employee and a lousy management: getting it right.

The number of HONs noting that service levels are dropping are not just anecdotal, it seems that on more and more flights HON don't get any attention anymore. I got that feedback from all HONs I know and I tested the water TXL-MUC myself and came to the same result.

You can add me to the list... Once in a while (maybe 1 out of 20 flights shorthaul) you will find a purser / crew who take the time on LH to introduce themselves and check if everything is alright and if they can do anything (which I always decline but I appreciate the effort). After all its the little things that make a difference. As it is so rare, I usually reward their efforts by sending a positive feedback letter. LX is much better in that respect.

You can add me to the list... Once in a while (maybe 1 out of 20 flights shorthaul) you will find a purser / crew who take the time on LH to introduce themselves and check if everything is alright and if they can do anything (which I always decline but I appreciate the effort). After all its the little things that make a difference. As it is so rare, I usually reward their efforts by sending a positive feedback letter. LX is much better in that respect.

In May I had excellent service on an LH longhaul flight and sent feedback to Lufthansa and also posted here on FT.

LX I usually send an email directly to the sales manager about good service and they pass it on to the appropriate employees.

When I say staff are demoralized- it does not mean they are taking it out on HON- however is does show.

based on the new business model that LH is adapting: You are catogrized by LH as someone who is looking for a low price not someone who will fly LH brand at any price.

Then LH wouldn't mind loosing your business and take away your HON card ;)

How someone can pay 6K EUR for a ticket when all competitors including BA, AF/KL, etc are offering for a maximum of 2.7 boggles my mind. And the "bad guy" middle eastern companies are offering for 1700. If that makes me a bad customer no problem at all to take away HON card or anything else. It is just "bad business" for me to overcharge my company like that in any circumstance.

The only argument remaining is the "middle of the night" transfer- however when I really think about it given there is also a timezone change it is not that big of a difference and particularly how easy QR makes it with the premium terminal transfer it just doesn't give me this much pain.

I may well requalify anyway- the difference now is that where I would go out of my way to give incremental business to LH group- now I am not doing that and rather flying only by schedule, price, and product quality. And with the very notable exception of LX the rest of LH group really comes in close to last place on product quality (I put them in a tie with IB for the business class product).

I have a feeling that the group of passengers they are looking for (i.e. oblivious to market pricing) is smaller than they think it is ...
Good luck hunting though !

The group must be VERY small.

Rambuster- do you personally know anyone who is oblivious to market pricing? I know a couple of people- however they are the same people who very rarely fly commercial.

The group must be VERY small.

Rambuster- do you personally know anyone who is oblivious to market pricing? I know a couple of people- however they are the same people who very rarely fly commercial.

Actually I know at least 2 HONs. They typically buy C fare on MUC-LHR-MUC and on TATLs. Only LH, rarely LX, sometimes BA.
Never heard any complaints about treatment. eVoucher/miles upgrade almost always clear.

Eek. C is very expensive...MUC-SFO-MUC 6405,79€ + TSC, booked 1 month in advance

Actually I know at least 2 HONs. They typically buy C fare on MUC-LHR-MUC and on TATLs. Only LH, rarely LX, sometimes BA.
Never heard any complaints about treatment. eVoucher/miles upgrade almost always clear.

Eek. C is very expensive...MUC-SFO-MUC 6405,79€ + TSC, booked 1 month in advance

I am not talking about HONs- also on this board there are a lot of HONs we all know and also off it- however I am wanting to think of ONE who is oblivious to market pricing.

6405.79 EUR + TSC to SFO? Why not just fly BA 1st at that price? Or get one of their 1700 EUR tickets in Club World they had on sale recently and MFU it to F?

Evoucher upgrades almost always clear in my case.

Mileage upgrades I don't do very often- and if so at checkin and yes they work (however are very very costly now).

Remember that after 01SEP you need D fare or above to use a mileage upgrade on LH (LX still good however).

Flying to London in business with LH? Yes- I do it sometimes- however not that BA is also launching flights to LCY from my home airport it will pretty much be done. And NEK takes any remaining joy out of inter-Europe C flights- Club Europe is a far superior product in every measurable way even with the most simplistic thing of having a closet to hang up your winter jacket instead of cramming it in the overflowing bins above you or keeping it on your lap (thus making it somewhat difficult to work productively).

Eek. C is very expensive...MUC-SFO-MUC 6405,79€ + TSC, booked 1 month in advance

Don't most big companies have discounted rates?

Don't most big companies have discounted rates?

LH discounts P,Z and D class.
C and J is the holy grail.
Companies usually only get a rebate at the end of the year based on their revenue targets. However, this usually isn't too much in percentages.

LH discounts P,Z and D class.
C and J is the holy grail.
Companies usually only get a rebate at the end of the year based on their revenue targets. However, this usually isn't too much in percentages.

Yes companies have disc rate its called adf rates. They offer only 50% miles on those rates.

Yes companies have disc rate its called adf rates. They offer only 50% miles on those rates.

Some route deals even only credit status miles and no award miles.

LH discounts P,Z and D class.
C and J is the holy grail.
Companies usually only get a rebate at the end of the year based on their revenue targets. However, this usually isn't too much in percentages.

Correct- not enough to make the price difference initially worth it in many cases.

Companies usually only get a rebate at the end of the year based on their revenue targets. However, this usually isn't too much in percentages.

I know for sure that the maximum LH pays back in rebate is 3% for very big accounts in the US and CAN markets.

I know for sure that the maximum LH pays back in rebate is 3% for very big accounts in the US and CAN markets.

3% is also what I had in mind.

3% is also what I had in mind.

So on a 6000 EUR ticket 18 EUR. Well that will make the difference.

So on a 6000 EUR ticket 18 EUR. Well that will make the difference.

3% of 6,000 EUR should be 180 EUR and I promise I haven't even touched my pocket calculator to do the math...

The rebate will be paid at the end of the year based on the total volume a company spends with LH.

For each and every ticket, LH is giving a lot bigger discounts for tickets in Y and B as well as Z and D.

So on a 6000 EUR ticket 18 EUR. Well that will make the difference.
:confused:

3% of 6,000 EUR should be 180 EUR and I promise I haven't even touched my pocket calculator to do the math...
:D

3% of 6,000 EUR should be 180 EUR and I promise I haven't even touched my pocket calculator to do the math...

The rebate will be paid at the end of the year based on the total volume a company spends with LH.

For each and every ticket, LH is giving a lot bigger discounts for tickets in Y and B as well as Z and D.

Excellent point.

My calculator is not working nor my brain today.

Thanks guys for fixing this up.

LH discounts P,Z and D class.
C and J is the holy grail.
Companies usually only get a rebate at the end of the year based on their revenue targets. However, this usually isn't too much in percentages.

I know that LH discounts C, D and Z class upfront (at least in the market where I start most of my travel from), plus provides a revenue-based kicker at the end of the year.

I know that LH discounts C, D and Z class upfront (at least in the market where I start most of my travel from), plus provides a revenue-based kicker at the end of the year.

LH tries to stay away from discounting C at any price. The only know deals to me are the upgrade-to-F based on availability for full fare C (and J for whoever is crazy enough to cough up money for that...).

3% of 6,000 EUR should be 180 EUR and I promise I haven't even touched my pocket calculator to do the math...

The rebate will be paid at the end of the year based on the total volume a company spends with LH.

For each and every ticket, LH is giving a lot bigger discounts for tickets in Y and B as well as Z and D.

Umm.. so you did spend 5,820 EUR on a ticket that you probably could get for 3,500 on another airline and call that a "rebate" ?
Whether I use a calc or not - the outcome is.. unpleasant for LH..

Some route deals even only credit status miles and no award miles.

Let's assume your company has this deal.. why should it make sense for the company to award you anything else than status miles ?
Everything else is just a bonus and there are better methods of awarding those..

Umm.. so you did spend 5,820 EUR on a ticket that you probably could get for 3,500 on another airline and call that a "rebate" ?
Whether I use a calc or not - the outcome is.. unpleasant for LH..

I would never spend a single EUR on the current LH Business product if I am not getting a guaranteed upgrade to F.

LH's C would need a deep discount over competitors to make up for its shortcomings. But obviously there are still enough people around that are not interested in getting any bang for their buck...

picking up the question from the OP....


no, it is not only you.


I am pretty much done with LH. Had the pleasure of sitting in the new C on a TATL. That was it then.. LH only when upgraded in F or a cheap A-Ticket from an outstation.

Other than that, it is LX and BA on TATL with preference on LX.

To Asia it is LX, CX and EK ( just realized again how great Terminal 1 in MUC actually is)

To TLV LX

To LCY LH as long as they fly this route from muc, after that, let us wait and see.

Within germany and other european destinations, I invested in Telepresence and shifted my travel budget over to our "outstations" so that they come visit me.

Although I already have 350k Hon Miles this year, I am pretty sure I will not extend it next year. BA, CX and EK are eating too much from the pie.

Although I already have 350k Hon Miles this year, I am pretty sure I will not extend it next year. BA, CX and EK are eating too much from the pie.

And this is really the point of the thread.

Perhaps one of the team who led the concept of eliminating the series of benefits in the last 18 months of the HON program could crack out the same spreadsheet that showed there would be little effect on said elimination on P&L and track the activity and revenue impacts of the most recent series of changes on the same group- given it is only 8000 members we are talking about it should not take more than 2 weeks with 2 FTE and could be interesting data (or maybe they have already done this, are happy with the results, and that is the way the dice roll).

I wonder how long it will be before the spreadsheet begins to show any difference.
Lufthansa German Airlines carried a total of 35.8 million passengers in the six-month term in 2012, an increase of 3.4 per cent on the year-earlier level. Capacity was up by 1.8 per cent, while sales increased by 2.8 per cent. The seat load factor rose accordingly on the prior-year level by 0.8 percentage points to 76.5 per cent.

The business figures of the Lufthansa Group in the first six months of 2012 will be released on 2 August 2012

Lufthansa Group: More passengers in first half of 2012 (http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-releases/singleview/archive/2012/july/10/article/2193.html)

I wonder how long it will be before the spreadsheet begins to show any difference.


Lufthansa Group: More passengers in first half of 2012 (http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-releases/singleview/archive/2012/july/10/article/2193.html)

It will depend probably if looking at leading or lagging indicators. Lagging tend not to be particularly good predictors of the future however who knows in this case?

I wonder how long it will be before the spreadsheet begins to show any difference.


Lufthansa German Airlines carried a total of 35.8 million passengers in the six-month term in 2012, an increase of 3.4 per cent on the year-earlier level. Capacity was up by 1.8 per cent, while sales increased by 2.8 per cent.

So capacity (and, presumably,cost) went up while average yield per passenger went south. Not an entirely happy picture.

Lufthansa German Airlines carried a total of 35.8 million passengers in the six-month term in 2012, an increase of 3.4 per cent on the year-earlier level. Capacity was up by 1.8 per cent, while sales increased by 2.8 per cent.

So capacity (and, presumably,cost) went up while average yield per passenger went south. Not an entirely happy picture.

LX seems to be doing something better: Coming from a higher seat load factor already they increased the number of seats offered and increased the seat load factor further...

Can anyone tell me when LH implemented the new upgrade hierarchy where HON's are not upgrade 1st but rather most expensive fair ticket?
Is this also applied by Austrian for upgrades from economy to business?
Has this been officially communicated to HON's?

Can anyone tell me when LH implemented the new upgrade hierarchy where HON's are not upgrade 1st but rather most expensive fair ticket?
Is this also applied by Austrian for upgrades from economy to business?
Has this been officially communicated to HON's?

It appears the upgrade hierarchy changed in May with LH.

LX seems to still be following the "old" system of upgrading based first on status.

OS no idea really.

Nothing communicated officially as there was never an official benefit to be first in line for an operational upgrade- to be fair to Lufthansa they can really upgrade whomever they choose- we just got used to it as an unpublished perk.

I have no idea about other fare classes, however P does seem to have a "do not upgrade" tag on it of some sort. Given that customers really don't buy tickets based on fare codes- it does seem rather short-sighted to say the least- however not being in Lufthansa management perhaps this is other data to the contrary (I really doubt it).

It appears the upgrade hierarchy changed in May with LH.

some recent op-ups from Z contradict this though. i know the new rules should be in place, but on some flights i can't believe that there is no one with a higher class than Z above me on the flight... i even had recent experiences where i got an op-up to F (or C intra EU) without C (or Y) even being full... :confused:

Given that customers really don't buy tickets based on fare codes- it does seem rather short-sighted to say the least- however not being in Lufthansa management perhaps this is other data to the contrary (I really doubt it).

That has been exactly my thought from the beginning. People will stay with LH because they gain status and can expect to be upgraded every once in a while. Once they realize that other people get upgraded because they bought a more expensive ticket, even though they don't even have status, frustration will set in. It may not have been a published benefit, but how else would you reasonably expect loyalty to be honored?

HTB.

It seems OS did not change the upgrade hierarchy. A colleague of mine was upgraded yesterday from economy to Business being Senator. He had the cheapest possible economy ticket.

back to my earlier point - in LH case: does a CEO (with a heavy financial background) love his customers OR his general ledger? Where's the balance of focus between customers vs balanced scorecard?

mfk

Looks like QF has a similar issue.....

I guess when you keep losing money it's not a bad idea to focus heavily on the general ledger. The challenge is ofcourse to do that without impact on customers. Something more easily said than done....

I would never spend a single EUR on the current LH Business product if I am not getting a guaranteed upgrade to F.

LH's C would need a deep discount over competitors to make up for its shortcomings. But obviously there are still enough people around that are not interested in getting any bang for their buck...

I could not agree more .
Over 1 mill HON miles in this qualifying period , never put my foot in C long haul so far.

Was on LH FRA-EWR on Sunday. Fully packed flight F0,C0,Y0.
Several HON's in C

a) No greeting by Purser ( in fact I first time saw him when deplaning at EWR)
b) No preference asked before meal service by CC, only "semolina" available when it was my turn, which I did not like since I was young
c) No PA in EWR waiting for us ( useless anyway )

On the other hand when irops came up for our connecting flights due to the bad thunderstorms the two UA receptionists in the UA lounge really went extra miles to get us to airports near our final destinations. However with 45 minutes the whole departure board went from white on time to red "canceled".

Seems that they are enhancing more little things ( which not even cost a penny ) to devaluate the HON status or was it just a grumpy purser on this flight ?

Was on LH FRA-EWR on Sunday. Fully packed flight F0,C0,Y0.
Several HON's in C

a) No greeting by Purser ( in fact I first time saw him when deplaning at EWR)
b) No preference asked before meal service by CC, only "semolina" available when it was my turn, which I did not like since I was young
c) No PA in EWR waiting for us ( useless anyway )


LX C the other week from ZRH to EWR

a) Purser recognized me, welcomed me back and went the extra mile to ensure I'm comfortable and well looked after
b) Asked first about meal preferences - before SEN and *G
c) Delta PA whisked me through immigration and 5 minutes after deplaning I was in my car

...just to show how the HON experience could be. Hoping FRA leaves LX to stay successful and doesn't start to interfere!

LX does it just perfect indeed. I never had a flight with LX in Europe in economy where the purser did not great me, offer extras... The service is consistant and you always receive what you expect. And their planes are also full.
On the other hand, with LH and OS, no consistency at all. I wrote the other day to CEO of OS among others about this lack of consistency which in my mind is terrible. I told him they should either leave it so nobody is disappointed or make sure it is implemented on 100% of the flights. I appreciated very much his answer:

"Please accept my sincere apologies if you felt that the service you were rendered by our staff on that occasion was neither adequate nor satisfactory. All Hon Circle members shall be welcomed personally on board and special care should be offered to them. High level talks within management crew will be done. I hope that your next flights will be comfortable and trouble free again and that you still choose Austrian Airlines for your trips."

Nice, isn't it! From what one can see from his actions, I am sure he will bring this company in the right directions. It might take some time, especially after the changes he has done in HR and reduced motivation of some staff, but it will get there where LX now is.

From Lufthansa, I am sure the CEO would not answer personnaly to a HON. Or am I wrong? Did any HON receive an answer from LH's CEO?

LX does it just perfect indeed. I never had a flight with LX in Europe in economy where the purser did not great me, offer extras... The service is consistant and you always receive what you expect. And their planes are also full.
On the other hand, with LH and OS, no consistency at all. I wrote the other day to CEO of OS among others about this lack of consistency which in my mind is terrible. I told him they should either leave it so nobody is disappointed or make sure it is implemented on 100% of the flights. I appreciated very much his answer:

"Please accept my sincere apologies if you felt that the service you were rendered by our staff on that occasion was neither adequate nor satisfactory. All Hon Circle members shall be welcomed personally on board and special care should be offered to them. High level talks within management crew will be done. I hope that your next flights will be comfortable and trouble free again and that you still choose Austrian Airlines for your trips."

Nice, isn't it! From what one can see from his actions, I am sure he will bring this company in the right directions. It might take some time, especially after the changes he has done in HR and reduced motivation of some staff, but it will get there where LX now is.

From Lufthansa, I am sure the CEO would not answer personnaly to a HON. Or am I wrong? Did any HON receive an answer from LH's CEO?

Franz is all about lip-service. What would he be bothered if his promises are not delivered?

While it was annoying to see that on domestic and European flights both purser and crew don't seem to bother it is actually alarming that I am hearing this now from a number of HONs for international flights in C as well: no welcome, no meal preference, no assistance offered.

Was on LH FRA-EWR on Sunday. Fully packed flight F0,C0,Y0.
Several HON's in C

a) No greeting by Purser ( in fact I first time saw him when deplaning at EWR)
b) No preference asked before meal service by CC, only "semolina" available when it was my turn, which I did not like since I was young
c) No PA in EWR waiting for us ( useless anyway )

On the other hand when irops came up for our connecting flights due to the bad thunderstorms the two UA receptionists in the UA lounge really went extra miles to get us to airports near our final destinations. However with 45 minutes the whole departure board went from white on time to red "canceled".

Seems that they are enhancing more little things ( which not even cost a penny ) to devaluate the HON status or was it just a grumpy purser on this flight ?

YMMV (especially with regard to LX and OS) but in my experience it's a sneaky but steady devaluation of HON status:

--The level of service by LH pursers on TATL flights has become unpredictable (meaning an overall substantial deterioration in both greeting and in leadership of the cabin crew, even by women pursers; the men are almost invariably sub-par) since the beginning of 2011.

--It's been a long time since an FA asked me beforehand for my meal preferences, although my choice has always been available.

--Whatever seat-blocking possibly existed in the past has disappeared.

--Judging by a recent experience at the FCT I imagine LH is again actively considering whether to ban HONs in whY from the FCT.

When reading all this one could think, CO/UA and LH had a worst practice exchange

Mamb0 unfortunately you are spot on. I fully agree to the statement of freindlyconfines, the level of service on TATL filights seems to be constantly declining since two years. Maybe US/UA complained to Lufti to narrow the gap between the carriers and Lufty agreed.

LH Service on Asian routes is in IMHO much better ( still ? )

Maybe US/UA complained to Lufti to narrow the gap between the carriers and Lufty agreed.

and how would that matter with the revenue sharing already in place!?

Just flown RUH-MUC in Y. Very uncomfortable in the new seats. Now on an Augsburg Airways flight to VIE. Seats are much wider and more comfortable. They should use Augsburg Airways to the Middle East. Flight from RUH was empty in all classes. Purser said hello and hoped that I would enjoy the new Y seats. I would have enjoyed an upgrade but there you go ;)

When reading all this one could think, CO/UA and LH had a worst practice exchange

Agreed.

Fly QR or BA and you will really shake your head as to why you gave all your business to LH.

East. Flight from RUH was empty in all classes. Purser said hello and hoped that I would enjoy the new Y seats. I would have enjoyed an upgrade but there you go ;)

I think very soon LH will drop MUC-RUH-MUC service soon. The flight flies most of the times empty and now BA will deploy 744 to RUH in order to combat LH expansion there.

I think very soon LH will drop MUC-RUH-MUC service soon. The flight flies most of the times empty and now BA will deploy 744 to RUH in order to combat LH expansion there.

They should close it and give the business to LX...

--Judging by a recent experience at the FCT I imagine LH is again actively considering whether to ban HONs in whY from the FCT.

OK, I'm biting. What has happened?

HTB.

OK, I'm biting. What has happened?

HTB.

probably more request for "3 Schnitzels to go!"

When reading all this one could think, CO/UA and LH had a worst practice exchange

Good observation. In fact, although the service attitude of UA cabin crews is beneath description, in some ways UA is more dependable:

--UA consistently handles IRROPS re-bookings much more coherently;

--Boarding by groups, with the group number prominently printed on the BP, works better than the scrums in FRA and MUC;

--UA takes *G more seriously than LH: I've had courtesy "upgrades" to E+ and when Mrs. FriendlyConfines' travel was disrupted overnight by bad storms the phone assistance to her as a SEN was outstanding.

OK, I'm biting. What has happened?

HTB.

Sorry. Didn't mean to put that sentence out as bait and it's really not worth going into. Just an odd but telling notation on the passenger sheet for two HONs traveling independently in whY on the same flight at the dispatcher's desk at the limo exit of the FCT.

probably more request for "3 Schnitzels to go!"

No, trying to cart off the whole jamon iberico...

NOT.

Sorry. Didn't mean to put that sentence out as bait and it's really not worth going into. Just an odd but telling notation on the passenger sheet for two HONs traveling independently in whY on the same flight at the dispatcher's desk at the limo exit of the FCT.

Now we are interested. ;)

Agreed.

Fly QR or BA and you will really shake your head as to why you gave all your business to LH.

I just finished a RT to SYD on EK in F. Liked the seat, although my feet were dangling below the rest of my body. The massage function I loved, the IFE was great, food was good, service on outbound was "OK" with a fairy laissez faire aussie guy high fiving the pax...and on the return 2 asian ladies who were exemplary.
Enjoyed the shower, was very helpful since my schedule was very tight and it saved me the trip to the lounge or the hotel before my meetings. did like the spacious feel of the 777, loved the led-star-sky.

The f lounge in the dubai shopping mall doesn't do anything for me, too noisy, showers too small, rest is too huge.. Not a place to relax and refresh

Limo service is perfect.

Only big downside: I need sunglasses to prevent my eyes from going blind because of the dodgy noveau riche look of the cabin interior...

My colleague who flew with lh/tg for the (hon)miles looked like .... when he arrived.

I couldn't find it anywhere, but is it true that the UA chairman at their investor's conference said their elites are over-entitled? That was, what I was referring to with the worst practice exchange between them and LH..

UAs elites are a very strange bunch... lets not go there...

I just finished a RT to SYD on EK in F. Liked the seat, although my feet were dangling below the rest of my body. The massage function I loved, the IFE was great, food was good, service on outbound was "OK" with a fairy laissez faire aussie guy high fiving the pax...and on the return 2 asian ladies who were exemplary.
Enjoyed the shower, was very helpful since my schedule was very tight and it saved me the trip to the lounge or the hotel before my meetings. did like the spacious feel of the 777, loved the led-star-sky.

The f lounge in the dubai shopping mall doesn't do anything for me, too noisy, showers too small, rest is too huge.. Not a place to relax and refresh

Limo service is perfect.

Only big downside: I need sunglasses to prevent my eyes from going blind because of the dodgy noveau riche look of the cabin interior...

My colleague who flew with lh/tg for the (hon)miles looked like .... when he arrived.

I couldn't find it anywhere, but is it true that the UA chairman at their investor's conference said their elites are over-entitled? That was, what I was referring to with the worst practice exchange between them and LH..

Personally I far prefer QR to EK. EK is a bit too much bling for me. My problem is that the F fares EK has been offering ex-Italy are less than half the business class fares of LH to SE Asia. LH revenue management has effectively doubled prices in Italy in the last 3 months while halfing the miles with the P and Z enhancements.

UA elites are way over-entitled. In fact the whole program in the United States of frequent flyers has gone crazy- I have never seen so many people as in a USA airport saying "I am a frequent flyer... bla bla bla" and wanting free upgrades.

I notice the Economist published a nice article today about QR (note that LH group are not even in the top 10 airlines worldwide): http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/airline-rankings?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/qatargetsthecream

I notice the Economist published a nice article today about QR (note that LH group are not even in the top 10 airlines worldwide): http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/airline-rankings?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/qatargetsthecream

While QR is certainly a nice airline, the Skytrax 'survey' is a total scam and I wouldn't for one moment use it to make any kind of decision.

While QR is certainly a nice airline, the Skytrax 'survey' is a total scam and I wouldn't for one moment use it to make any kind of decision.

While I do agree with you- it does receive strong coverage in both the Economist and FT which are probably the closest target publications which are read on a regular basis.

If I compare "business class to business class" QR does a better job than anyone else I have flown with.

If I compare "business class to business class" QR does a better job than anyone else I have flown with.

Despite you are being number 1 lobbyist for QR in LH forum praising everything about QR, I never seen you posting anything in QR forum for a long time :confused: !!!

Despite you are being number 1 lobbyist for QR in LH forum praising everything about QR, I never seen you posting anything in QR forum for a long time :confused: !!!

I am actually number 1 lobbyist for Lufthansa and a long-term HON customer- I give the great majority of my business to LH group although this is changing over time. I do post over in the QR forum once in a while- however there is not really that much to post- if I think I have some value to add I will do it.

If there are any questions I can answer feel free to PM me.

Ciao, Travelsig.

A loyalty program should live to his name, loyalty from both partners.
With the recent "enhancements" for HON's LH clearly and willingly broke this mutual trust as evidenced here in 100+ posts.

For me therefore M&M has changed into now to a LH illoyalty program.:mad:

A loyalty program should live to his name, loyalty from both partners.
With the recent "enhancements" for HON's LH clearly and willingly broke this mutual trust as evidenced here in 100+ posts.

For me therefore M&M has changed into now to a LH illoyalty program.:mad:

+1

and +300 for my company trying to avoid booking LH whenever we can..

An interesting read on a quiet Sunday morning. Just went through the 14 pages.

I observe that LH seems to be doing what AirFrance has been going through some years ago: running the company no longer with the interest of their customers in mind but by silly spreawdsheet indicators. They cut service wherever they could, and their CFO was saying things like "There are too many Business Class passengers, not good, the average space in square meters taken up by a Business Class seat is too high". And so on. Result was several years of absolutely colossal losses (we talk billions of EUR), and only now are they trying to win back customers. However, if you read the AFKL forum they find this very very hard, their reputation is really tarnished. As a datapoint, in 2005 my travel mix was 45% Air France, 45% LH Group, 10% others. Today, it is 85% LH group (of which Swiss gets 90%), 2% Air France, and the rest others, primarily ME carriers. The way things are going at LH I am less and less inclined to use them, but I am still super happy with Swiss, especially the extra assistance I receiving when needed. Thus I believe that LH is entering a slippery slope.

But then, there still are some benefits that I do not receive from any other FFP. I have AFKL Platinum, Emirates and Etihad Gold and will have Qatar Gold next week. Seriously none of these programs offers me anything like HON. It is actually quite shocking how little benefits come with these programs. So HON stil has a certain attraction. BUT: indeed my barrier to switch is currently going down and I am not going to renew it at any price.

Lastly, a word on the ME airlines:

Qatar is good, but overrated. They are absolutely outstanding on catering and amenities, and their Premium Lounge in DOH is very nice. But don't even try to get competent help for complex ticket situations. And the seats: the ones on the Airbus fleet are not much better than LH, not flat either. No own lounges outside DOH and LHR so often one is in drab airport lounges. No WiFi on the longhaul fleet. All this busing and limousining to the plane in DOH is another annoying thing, although I won't hold it against them since the new airport is going to open up in a couple of months. And status recognition: zero.

Emirates, again, good, but with some noteable weaknesses. The seats on the A380 are greaat in Business, but less so on the B777-300ER (again not fully flat). And let's not even go to the Airbus A330 fleet with their 2-3-2 config in C and 2-2-2 in First. The First Suites: comfortable, but completely tasteless. Food: extremely (!) un-impressing. Service: I just don't like the vulgar informality of their Anglo-Saxon staff (whenever I see them I must think that underneath their uniform they are heavily tatooed). The Asian crewmembers are better in that respect, but then sometimes a bit too "devote" and trying to smile away incompetence. The lounges in DXB are nice but not up there with the QR Premium Terminal or the FCLs. Lounge availability in other parts of the network is of course a strong point. Again, useless call center, worse than LH. Status recognition for Gold: zero.

Etihad: the inflight product is probably the best average of the three. But AUH airport is not pleasant, and again the same weaknesses on lounges, no WiFi. Status recognition for Gold: zero.

In the end my choice is based first on schedule, then a mix of inflight product quality and FFP benefits that make my travel more stress-free (shorter waits, space to relax, assistance for needs). LH managed to compensate the weaknesses of its cabin product with superior FFP benefits. With the devaluation of their FFP benefits the overall mix edges closer and closer to the ME carriers who dominate on cabin product. So the barriers to exit a loyal relationship with LH are lower and lower...

Great post San Gottardo ^

San Gottardo, Thank you for great post and good overview of different programs.

An interesting read on a quiet Sunday morning. Just went through the 14 pages.


But then, there still are some benefits that I do not receive from any other FFP. I have AFKL Platinum, Emirates and Etihad Gold and will have Qatar Gold next week. Seriously none of these programs offers me anything like HON. It is actually quite shocking how little benefits come with these programs. So HON stil has a certain attraction. BUT: indeed my barrier to switch is currently going down and I am not going to renew it at any price.

Lastly, a word on the ME airlines:

Qatar is good, but overrated. They are absolutely outstanding on catering and amenities, and their Premium Lounge in DOH is very nice. But don't even try to get competent help for complex ticket situations. And the seats: the ones on the Airbus fleet are not much better than LH, not flat either. No own lounges outside DOH and LHR so often one is in drab airport lounges. No WiFi on the longhaul fleet. All this busing and limousining to the plane in DOH is another annoying thing, although I won't hold it against them since the new airport is going to open up in a couple of months. And status recognition: zero.

Emirates, again, good, but with some noteable weaknesses.

That is excellent review for me, thanks. This is interesting to read this HON thread as I´m only to stick in FT or *G status. This forum is invaluable. Keep going.

Still sometimes you get very much surprised, as yesterday when my family (3 out of 4) were upgraded from economy to business on OS to Vienna.

Still sometimes you get very much surprised, as yesterday when my family (3 out of 4) were upgraded from economy to business on OS to Vienna.

Would be interesting to know where they came from.. because an upgrade from Muc to Vie is pretty useless.. whereas Iad or Jfk would be a pleasant surprise indeed..

In the end my choice is based first on schedule, then a mix of inflight product quality and FFP benefits that make my travel more stress-free (shorter waits, space to relax, assistance for needs). LH managed to compensate the weaknesses of its cabin product with superior FFP benefits. With the devaluation of their FFP benefits the overall mix edges closer and closer to the ME carriers who dominate on cabin product. So the barriers to exit a loyal relationship with LH are lower and lower...

Probably the best analyses I have read in the last weeks regarding LH and the competitors. In fact LH is lowering the barriers for their loyal customers to use other airlines.
In the last 2 weeks I have used AF and IB in C on a short haul, although I have tried to avoid these airlines the last years. I was surprised to see that the service was not worse than LH. The down side for AF is CDG which is not convenient to transit. But IB has with MAD a really good airport with great lounges.
I will still fly LH in the future but I will be open for alternatives, especially if the prices are better.

Probably the best analyses I have read in the last weeks regarding LH and the competitors. In fact LH is lowering the barriers for their loyal customers to use other airlines.
In the last 2 weeks I have used AF and IB in C on a short haul, although I have tried to avoid these airlines the last years. I was surprised to see that the service was not worse than LH. The down side for AF is CDG which is not convenient to transit. But IB has with MAD a really good airport with great lounges.
I will still fly LH in the future but I will be open for alternatives, especially if the prices are better.

Well said.

Probably the best analyses I have read in the last weeks regarding LH and the competitors. In fact LH is lowering the barriers for their loyal customers to use other airlines.
In the last 2 weeks I have used AF and IB in C on a short haul, although I have tried to avoid these airlines the last years. I was surprised to see that the service was not worse than LH. The down side for AF is CDG which is not convenient to transit. But IB has with MAD a really good airport with great lounges.
I will still fly LH in the future but I will be open for alternatives, especially if the prices are better.
A lot of the so-called barriers do not really matter, when it comes to it.
Several years ago, I made a decision that rather than be blindly loyal to one airline (BA), I would hedge my bets. Once you build status in multiple alliances it increases your options. So I fly CX more even though I am a BA Gold, SQ even though I am a SEN. For my regular LHR- MOW trips in the past few years ( about 30-40 per year), I chose BD as they are the best option compared to BA and SU in terms of cabin.
I have lost out BA GGL because of this (and maybe HON if I am stupid enough to transit via FRA/ZRH for intra Europe C flights), but is it really worth the hassle?
So I completely agree- get the best comfort/ schedule/price combination within your constraints rather than let any airline fleece you in terms of loyalty.

Lastly, a word on the ME airlines:
Emirates Service: I just don't like the vulgar informality of their Anglo-Saxon staff (whenever I see them I must think that underneath their uniform they are heavily tatooed).


:Hilarious and spot on. Will be next week on EK to PVG and will ask. Result might be either a slap in the face or some interesting insights;)

:Hilarious and spot on. Will be next week on EK to PVG and will ask. Result might be either a slap in the face or some interesting insights;)

Yes, please post the photos :) either of your swollen face or of the tattoos :)

will do provided they don't violate the code of ethics in this forum;)

Sorry for the error. Was actually a flight from Vienna to Bangkok, so was really great value to get upgrade for 3 of us.

That is excellent review for me, thanks. This is interesting to read this HON thread as I´m only to stick in FT or *G status. This forum is invaluable. Keep going.

What is so super great about that report? It is indeed a good summary - in a sense. Moreover, it is very simple: it should open you guys your eyes. What Gottardo basically wrote is, that it makes not much sense to invest extra money in order to get a status. It's not worth it! HON may be a better status than some others - and yet, it's not worth the money!

...
I have lost out BA GGL because of this (and maybe HON if I am stupid enough to transit via FRA/ZRH for intra Europe C flights), but is it really worth the hassle?...

clearly NO, it's not worth the hassle ^

Or "The HON Circle status will be upgraded" (according to Google Translate). :rolleyes:

An article in Welt Online (http://bit.ly/OHK3ag) obviously written for readers in Germany.

It is crazy that even newspapers like "Die Welt" just write word-by-word the stuff supplied by Alexander König and even reference to his pages.

Even if parts of the content are indeed correct, some parts are very strange and this is not a high-quality article.

It is crazy that even newspapers like "Die Welt" just write word-by-word the stuff supplied by Alexander König and even reference to his pages.


Who else should a reporter call? We are all anonymous here, so all that is left are the self styled 'Guru's out there :)

It is crazy that even newspapers like "Die Welt" just write word-by-word the stuff supplied by Alexander König and even reference to his pages.

Even if parts of the content are indeed correct, some parts are very strange and this is not a high-quality article.

I think this article should be a wake-up call for the revisor/compliance manager/fraud manager or similar person within the newspaper publishing company. :eek:

Referring to a page where subscriptions for information is sold which you can easily access for free. :mad:

Who else should a reporter call? We are all anonymous here, so all that is left are the self styled 'Guru's out there :)

FT was able to reach out and quote people posting here, why would 'Welt' not be able to?

I suppose someone googled 'miles and more änderungen' and got results on M&M, VFF, VFT, Eggy Articles and then a few mentions of 'first class and more', ie Königs operation ;)

I suppose someone googled 'miles and more änderungen' and got results on M&M, VFF, VFT, Eggy Articles and then a few mentions of 'first class and more', ie Königs operation ;)

So what did the article say more or less?

Welt? Nothing that was not said before.

So what did the article say more or less?

Nothing we don't already know: in a nutshell... no more HON miles in Y, companies not sending staff in C, Z and P class enhancements.

HON getting more exclusive but simply because it is getting harder to obtain, not because of any additional benefits.

Nothing we don't already know: in a nutshell... no more HON miles in Y, companies not sending staff in C, Z and P class enhancements.

HON getting more exclusive but simply because it is getting harder to obtain, not because of any additional benefits.

Thanks.

Welt? Nothing that was not said before.

I'm actually trying to remember the last time I read sth in the "Welt" that was news of any kind.. and I'm having a hard time :D

Do they have any frequent readers that did not subscribe due to the miles offered?

The moment you build an itin the married segment rule kicks in and destroys the availability you found segment by segment. If you trick the system, LH will fine you as a TA. They are not stupid, especially since Altea came into place.
I suppose, you could book on separate PNRs if you leave enough time to protect against misconnection.
back to my earlier point - in LH case: does a CEO (with a heavy financial background) love his customers OR his general ledger? Where's the balance of focus between customers vs balanced scorecard?

mfk
Good question!
Ummm.. you really call sending a letter to LHs CEO "outsmarting" :D ? I would rather call that.. brillant selfown ?
Agreed. I have to say I find people who do this very arrogant.
Let's assume your company has this deal.. why should it make sense for the company to award you anything else than status miles ?
Everything else is just a bonus and there are better methods of awarding those..
Aren't there some countries where employees have to pay tax on redeemable miles earned if they use them for personal travel?
While QR is certainly a nice airline, the Skytrax 'survey' is a total scam and I wouldn't for one moment use it to make any kind of decision.
Why do you say that?
Or "The HON Circle status will be upgraded" (according to Google Translate). :rolleyes:

An article in Welt Online (http://bit.ly/OHK3ag) obviously written for readers in Germany.
Enhancement, I assume!

I'm actually trying to remember the last time I read sth in the "Welt" that was news of any kind.. and I'm having a hard time :D

Do they have any frequent readers that did not subscribe due to the miles offered?

Great! +1 :D

Why do you say that?

Are you serious? Skytrax is a total scam where pretty much anyone can pay (or bribe) their way to a good review. While QR might be a good airline, trusting Skytrax judgement of this is like asking a blind man if the girl across the street is good looking or not.

I had never read anything like that before, to be honest.

Nothing we don't already know: in a nutshell... no more HON miles in Y, companies not sending staff in C, Z and P class enhancements.

HON getting more exclusive but simply because it is getting harder to obtain, not because of any additional benefits.

that's actually the thing that is mostly pissing me off: you only get HON Circle miles if you book in C or F - and if you book in Z (discounted business) you get LESS miles.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/discussion/topic/Changes-to-LH-Miles-and-More

Since a few HONs and SENs stated to to put their money somewhere else I was wondering whether LH or LX have been reaching out to check with you with regards to your changed patterns. Our corporate travel office told my assistant the LH rep asked them what is up with me. Do not know whether this was a joke or not.

I was on LH last week for the first time since a long period (at least for me).

Crew was ambivalent, no hello, no greeting, no preferred food choice, had to discuss to get a big bottle of water. The old biz seat still horrible (and mine even had its own life - changing positions of seat elements without pressing any button. And Flynet - which actually could be a good reason for me to fly LH - as usual not working.


Since we are prepping the budget and travel for 2013 (as I guess most of you), all 6 in my team followed my lead to spread the joy and book less LH.

The only trips I have locked in on LH so far are trips to CGN and NCE. The rest is spread out. From looking at it, if I would have to renew it, I would not even make Sen next year on LH...

To quote my boss (SEN and with HON envy) after his first trip in business on NEK from Cairo: F**** this s***. I am out of here.

Since a few HONs and SENs stated to to put their money somewhere else I was wondering whether LH or LX have been reaching out to check with you with regards to your changed patterns. Our corporate travel office told my assistant the LH rep asked them what is up with me. Do not know whether this was a joke or not.

Not every SEN/HON has a corporate travel office or a LH/LX/OS sales person handy.
My company i.e. with 6 HON and 7 SEN out of 20 people does not have anything like this.

Since a few HONs and SENs stated to to put their money somewhere else I was wondering whether LH or LX have been reaching out to check with you with regards to your changed patterns. Our corporate travel office told my assistant the LH rep asked them what is up with me. Do not know whether this was a joke or not.

I was on LH last week for the first time since a long period (at least for me).

Crew was ambivalent, no hello, no greeting, no preferred food choice, had to discuss to get a big bottle of water. The old biz seat still horrible (and mine even had its own life - changing positions of seat elements without pressing any button. And Flynet - which actually could be a good reason for me to fly LH - as usual not working.


Since we are prepping the budget and travel for 2013 (as I guess most of you), all 6 in my team followed my lead to spread the joy and book less LH.

The only trips I have locked in on LH so far are trips to CGN and NCE. The rest is spread out. From looking at it, if I would have to renew it, I would not even make Sen next year on LH...

To quote my boss (SEN and with HON envy) after his first trip in business on NEK from Cairo: F**** this s***. I am out of here.

Same goes for me.
I had some very unpleasant flights with LH recently. Crew was not very attentive, altough I was the only HON on board.

It seems that LH management is telling their staff that HON is not the best customer any more but costing them money.

What p****s me of the most is the fact that they are not taking HON into consideration any more for op ups in lower booking classes and this stuff. It is not that I am expecting an op up, however, it shows to me that only the current ticket matters to them, not your total business. I think it is a big mistake.

Have had 3 flights where FTL were upgraded C-F and Y-C while I was not, because they had more expensive tickets.

However, I believe that many many HON can decide about their airline by themselves, and they are exactly doing this now. At the same time, I believe that many FTL and SEN fly LH because it is their company policy. At least this is what I see at my friends and colleagues.
So what LH is doing now is not the best way to go.

And besides all this, LH seems to have lost the mind to take care about the details. There are so many flights where crew is talking to each other instead of taking care for the customers, or where crew is loud during night flight. On 2 flights I have seen the purser upgrading friends&family on board. This does not show to the customer that the business is really valued.

And some more details: why do they not change their movies on long haul more often? Since 3 months now in a row they are showing the same "How I met your mother" episode. Thats crazy. And same is for many other movies.
And why is there less and less PA arrival services for HONs. I just do not understand this.

And why is there less and less PA arrival services for HONs. I just do not understand this.

+1

Not every SEN/HON has a corporate travel office or a LH/LX/OS sales person handy.
My company i.e. with 6 HON and 7 SEN out of 20 people does not have anything like this.

Just like your experience with Vodafone, there is a sales rep assigned to your firm via ppb and he/she probably even doesn't know about his/her luck :D

Same goes for me.
I had some very unpleasant flights with LH recently. Crew was not very attentive, altough I was the only HON on board.

It seems that LH management is telling their staff that HON is not the best customer any more but costing them money.

What p****s me of the most is the fact that they are not taking HON into consideration any more for op ups in lower booking classes and this stuff. It is not that I am expecting an op up, however, it shows to me that only the current ticket matters to them, not your total business. I think it is a big mistake.

Have had 3 flights where FTL were upgraded C-F and Y-C while I was not, because they had more expensive tickets.

However, I believe that many many HON can decide about their airline by themselves, and they are exactly doing this now. At the same time, I believe that many FTL and SEN fly LH because it is their company policy. At least this is what I see at my friends and colleagues.
So what LH is doing now is not the best way to go.

And besides all this, LH seems to have lost the mind to take care about the details. There are so many flights where crew is talking to each other instead of taking care for the customers, or where crew is loud during night flight. On 2 flights I have seen the purser upgrading friends&family on board. This does not show to the customer that the business is really valued.

And some more details: why do they not change their movies on long haul more often? Since 3 months now in a row they are showing the same "How I met your mother" episode. Thats crazy. And same is for many other movies.
And why is there less and less PA arrival services for HONs. I just do not understand this.


Well said; LH becoming a transactional airline -- this is exactly what they do.

On your movies comment: I think this still is an Antinori heritage. Antinori was convinced that savvy frequent fliers have their own movies with them on iPad and the like, anyways. So it is useless to invest into expensive entertainment offerings. I do not believe this is true. I fly more than 1M FF miles every year, and I have never brought my own movies on board. And most of my frequent flying buddies don't, either.

Well said; LH becoming a transactional airline -- this is exactly what they do.

On your movies comment: I think this still is an Antinori heritage. Antinori was convinced that savvy frequent fliers have their own movies with them on iPad and the like, anyways. So it is useless to invest into expensive entertainment offerings. I do not believe this is true. I fly more than 1M FF miles every year, and I have never brought my own movies on board. And most of my frequent flying buddies don't, either.

I really like good inflight entertainment systems- I end up watching something new I never new about.

I probably bring a film on my Ipad about twice a year.

Same goes for me.
I had some very unpleasant flights with LH recently. Crew was not very attentive, altough I was the only HON on board.

It seems that LH management is telling their staff that HON is not the best customer any more but costing them money.

What p****s me of the most is the fact that they are not taking HON into consideration any more for op ups in lower booking classes and this stuff. It is not that I am expecting an op up, however, it shows to me that only the current ticket matters to them, not your total business. I think it is a big mistake.

Have had 3 flights where FTL were upgraded C-F and Y-C while I was not, because they had more expensive tickets.

However, I believe that many many HON can decide about their airline by themselves, and they are exactly doing this now. At the same time, I believe that many FTL and SEN fly LH because it is their company policy. At least this is what I see at my friends and colleagues.
So what LH is doing now is not the best way to go.

And besides all this, LH seems to have lost the mind to take care about the details. There are so many flights where crew is talking to each other instead of taking care for the customers, or where crew is loud during night flight. On 2 flights I have seen the purser upgrading friends&family on board. This does not show to the customer that the business is really valued.

And some more details: why do they not change their movies on long haul more often? Since 3 months now in a row they are showing the same "How I met your mother" episode. Thats crazy. And same is for many other movies.
And why is there less and less PA arrival services for HONs. I just do not understand this.

Do not have the same experience when it comes to your comment about the crew .
Fully agree on the rest and would add that the HON hotline is crap these days.

Fully agree on the rest and would add that the HON hotline is crap these days.

It does seem that the calls now get forwarded to any available call centre (including the best of them all in Capetown and Istanbul).

It is not that I am expecting an op up, however, it shows to me that only the current ticket matters to them, not your total business. I think it is a big mistake.
Exactly my feeling. This completely destroys any feeling of loyalty that frequent flyers may still have for LH.

And some more details: why do they not change their movies on long haul more often? Since 3 months...
I don't fly longhaul too often, but I felt the same. In addition, the choices they offer is questionable as well, and even less choice in economy than in business. My wifes almost begs not to have to fly LH because of the entertainment program...

HTB

What p****s me of the most is the fact that they are not taking HON into consideration any more for op ups in lower booking classes and this stuff. It is not that I am expecting an op up, however, it shows to me that only the current ticket matters to them, not your total business. I think it is a big mistake.

I think you are feeling a little over entitled..... It's not like they are giving the upgrades to just anybody. The ones that got them were probably SEN's with higher priced tickets, their total business might be less than yours but is still substantial. There is something to be said for upgrading your (other) loyal customers on high fare tickets. If you also had one you would still be given priority...

I think you are feeling a little over entitled..... It's not like they are giving the upgrades to just anybody. The ones that got them were probably SEN's with higher priced tickets, their total business might be less than yours but is still substantial. There is something to be said for upgrading your (other) loyal customers on high fare tickets. If you also had one you would still be given priority...
In my mind there are three points to consider relating to HON entitlement vs individual trip fare:
1. HON status is the only one within M&M where you can be sure substantial business was made within LH group. SEN and FTL status can be achieved by flying *A partners
2. Does it make sense to look at the fare just for the current flight? I at least had combinations were I had a J class ticket on the outbound flight and a Z ticket on the return leg. Should one get the upgrade vs one who has a C+C combination which may be overall more expensive?
3. Does the fare price delta of a few hundred US$ up to maybe 2 - 3k US$ in favor of pax A justify the op - up vs the total business delta of several 10k US$ in favor of the HON. To me it seems like many HONs just feel it is not right. Especially given that due to the new rules in order to qualify for HON (no HON miles in Y, less miles for P and C fares) will lead to an increased delta between the total annual business of an HON to any other pax.

Have had 3 flights where FTL were upgraded C-F and Y-C while I was not, because they had more expensive tickets.



How do you know all this?

People are probably being upgraded all round me, but I'm mostly unaware of it.

And if I do notice it, I've no idea how I might go about getting information on the passenger's status and the amount he/she paid for the ticket.

Just like your experience with Vodafone, there is a sales rep assigned to your firm via ppb and he/she probably even doesn't know about his/her luck :D

:D:D:D
Good to know! Thank you.
Fortunately (for LH) I'm not in charge for our travel management :p

Exactly my feeling. This completely destroys any feeling of loyalty that frequent flyers may still have for LH.


I don't fly longhaul too often, but I felt the same. In addition, the choices they offer is questionable as well, and even less choice in economy than in business. My wifes almost begs not to have to fly LH because of the entertainment program...

HTB

True, I second that. For me personally I do not care very much for the Lufthansa IFE besides perhaps The Lounge Channel once in a while. I have everything I need on my devices.... when I flew with Emirates I have to say ICE blew me away... But last week my kids were really annoyed by the IFE on LH and it's offerings... Wife also mentioned that she would prefer an airline with better food and entertainment on board...

In my mind there are three points to consider relating to HON entitlement vs individual trip fare:
1. HON status is the only one within M&M where you can be sure substantial business was made within LH group. SEN and FTL status can be achieved by flying *A partners
2. Does it make sense to look at the fare just for the current flight? I at least had combinations were I had a J class ticket on the outbound flight and a Z ticket on the return leg. Should one get the upgrade vs one who has a C+C combination which may be overall more expensive?
3. Does the fare price delta of a few hundred US$ up to maybe 2 - 3k US$ in favor of pax A justify the op - up vs the total business delta of several 10k US$ in favor of the HON. To me it seems like many HONs just feel it is not right. Especially given that due to the new rules in order to qualify for HON (no HON miles in Y, less miles for P and C fares) will lead to an increased delta between the total annual business of an HON to any other pax.
Welcome and congratulations to a very sensible 1st post! ^

In my mind there are three points to consider relating to HON entitlement vs individual trip fare:
1. HON status is the only one within M&M where you can be sure substantial business was made within LH group. SEN and FTL status can be achieved by flying *A partners
2. Does it make sense to look at the fare just for the current flight? I at least had combinations were I had a J class ticket on the outbound flight and a Z ticket on the return leg. Should one get the upgrade vs one who has a C+C combination which may be overall more expensive?
3. Does the fare price delta of a few hundred US$ up to maybe 2 - 3k US$ in favor of pax A justify the op - up vs the total business delta of several 10k US$ in favor of the HON. To me it seems like many HONs just feel it is not right. Especially given that due to the new rules in order to qualify for HON (no HON miles in Y, less miles for P and C fares) will lead to an increased delta between the total annual business of an HON to any other pax.


From a financial and economic point of view this policy makes very little sense. The proportion of J fare flyers that do so on a continious basis is probably marginal compared to lets say the average HON flying on a combination of Z/D/C fares.
The largest number of people flying J fares is usually (and this is only from my personal experience) people with no status, who fly LH very spontanously and mostly because they have to rather than because they actively chose to do so.
E.g. two weeks ago on BOS-FRA, there were 3 Op-ups from C to F and I saw the pax receiving them as they were in front of me in the priority boarding line. 1x FTL, 2x M/M on J ticket. Based on their conversation and their appearance they were definitly no frequent flyers and no frequent customers to LH. One of them didn't even realise that he actually got upgraded.

Now the question: Who is more likely to return to LH on a continous basis paying for high yield fares (Z and up)? The HON, who has proven its loyalty to LH group in the past or the 3 first time corporate flyers on a last minute J ticket?
Now, where is more potential for upsetting a customer? And where's more business at stake? 60-80k revenue from corporate Z/D or C fares and potentially the power to decide over preferred travel partner (for himself or even the whole company)?
Even though the Op-Up is no official benefit and no one should feel entitled to fly in a higher COS for free, I understand anyone who feels it is a punch in its face, to see no reward for continous loyalty (a lot of HONs are making efforts to stay with LH and to justify the higher prices in their travel departments) in such cases.

LH can only hope that the large number of HONs and SENs isn't aware of the poicies and won't even notice. Otherwise, I believe this move will hurt LH in the long run along with all the other enhancements they implemented.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8900/4.6.1.168 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/130)

Remember, a few weeks ago I was posting here that the company I am working for is still booking LH C and J fares. Seems like this is about to change as recent TA trips for non senior people went to AA and UA due to much lower prices. Waiting to see if this is temporary or a dramatic change in our booking behaviour.

From a financial and economic point of view this policy makes very little sense. The proportion of J fare flyers that do so on a continious basis is probably marginal compared to lets say the average HON flying on a combination of Z/D/C fares.
The largest number of people flying J fares is usually (and this is only from my personal experience) people with no status, who fly LH very spontanously and mostly because they have to rather than because they actively chose to do so.
E.g. two weeks ago on BOS-FRA, there were 3 Op-ups from C to F and I saw the pax receiving them as they were in front of me in the priority boarding line. 1x FTL, 2x M/M on J ticket. Based on their conversation and their appearance they were definitly no frequent flyers and no frequent customers to LH. One of them didn't even realise that he actually got upgraded.

Now the question: Who is more likely to return to LH on a continous basis paying for high yield fares (Z and up)? The HON, who has proven its loyalty to LH group in the past or the 3 first time corporate flyers on a last minute J ticket?
Now, where is more potential for upsetting a customer? And where's more business at stake? 60-80k revenue from corporate Z/D or C fares and potentially the power to decide over preferred travel partner (for himself or even the whole company)?
Even though the Op-Up is no official benefit and no one should feel entitled to fly in a higher COS for free, I understand anyone who feels it is a punch in its face, to see no reward for continous loyalty (a lot of HONs are making efforts to stay with LH and to justify the higher prices in their travel departments) in such cases.

LH can only hope that the large number of HONs and SENs isn't aware of the poicies and won't even notice. Otherwise, I believe this move will hurt LH in the long run along with all the other enhancements they implemented.

Great post and summary!

+1

All good points... but I would start with the assumption that there has been a decent analysis by LH what this change is intended to achieve.

In these discussion I feel the assumption is made a little to easy that LH is incompetent. And that surely is the case sometimes... but since they are the ones that have all the data that is needed to make these decisions it's not unreasonable to assume there is a solid reason to back-up the changes. It might even be as simple as trying to seduce the people that normally fly other airlines and just fly LH at the last minute. But without the numbers this is all speculation.

And I'm quite sure that most SEN's fly the LH airlines also quite regularly. Sure, you can earn miles with others but that's probably going to be a minor percentage. Upgrading people without status, or status outside M&M, before those with (especially HON's) does seem to be a very strange one...

To me it seems that where most of the M&M changes fail is in the execution. For example the lack of communication but also the really weird revenue management that makes the pricing of the different fare classes sometimes really weird. And that might be something that wasn't envisioned when making these changes....

All good points... but I would start with the assumption that there has been a decent analysis by LH what this change is intended to achieve.

I am not sure about this assumption and perhaps on how you define "decent".

In these discussion I feel the assumption is made a little to easy that LH is incompetent. And that surely is the case sometimes... but since they are the ones that have all the data that is needed to make these decisions it's not unreasonable to assume there is a solid reason to back-up the changes.

I think the reason is very clear.

Someone in the management has declared that by upgrading PAX they are losing revenue that could have been had if that person had booked the higher class to begin with. The perceived loss becomes a benchmark to measure the effectiveness of applied measures to "improve" the situation.

Clearly, only upgrading the pax on the highest booking classes improves this benchmark considerably and most effectively. The new policy is therefore regarded as a complete success.

I just can't see another logical explanation for LH's behavior. Other than contempt, maybe.

HTB.

I think the reason is very clear.

Someone in the management has declared that by upgrading PAX they are losing revenue that could have been had if that person had booked the higher class to begin with. The perceived loss becomes a benchmark to measure the effectiveness of applied measures to "improve" the situation.

Clearly, only upgrading the pax on the highest booking classes improves this benchmark considerably and most effectively. The new policy is therefore regarded as a complete success.

I just can't see another logical explanation for LH's behavior. Other than contempt, maybe.

HTB.

Anything's possible, and a dose of contempt could well be in the mix. However, it seems to me this newer upgrade policy reflects senior management's resentment at "over-entitled" HONs (and SENs) and desire to teach us a lesson in the best Nurse Ratched manner.