Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - EMTs Frisked Before Treating Pax?

It seemed odd today to witness FA's, who called Narita paramedics for a man in cardiac distress, frisk both EMTs in the jetway before they were allowed to rush aboard. I thought EMT's operating at airports already had full clearance.

Elapsed time between the crew (DL 296) call and the techs arriving was roughly 21 minutes.

As sad as this sounds, if they arrived via the tarmac, I can see the jetway/airplane being one "zone", and the tarmac being another "zone" ("sterile" vs. "safe"?). Then again, given the tools and instruments that is part of their job... huh!

At DTW, I've seen the fire/safety (in full gear, coats and boxes) in the terminal, presumably to respond to a pax issue in the terminal. I couldn't imagine that they wouldn't have something such as a SIDA badge, so they can cross in/out as required.

If we're worried about fire/safety passing something to pax, we have bigger fish to fry.

As sad as this sounds, if they arrived via the tarmac, I can see the jetway/airplane being one "zone", and the tarmac being another "zone" ("sterile" vs. "safe"?). Then again, given the tools and instruments that is part of their job... huh!

At DTW, I've seen the fire/safety (in full gear, coats and boxes) in the terminal, presumably to respond to a pax issue in the terminal. I couldn't imagine that they wouldn't have something such as a SIDA badge, so they can cross in/out as required.

If we're worried about fire/safety passing something to pax, we have bigger fish to fry.

At DTW I've also seen Police Officers, with sidearm mind you, just walk in through the exit and TSA doesn't even bat an eye.

If the outbound 296, it is headed for the US and must therefor abide by TSA rules on liquids.

There had been previous reported incedents of EMT's bringing on board substantially more than 6 ounces of saline solution.

So now they are restricted to 6 ounces (for each EMT).

Stay tuned for next week's episode of "Security Theater", brought to you by your friendly TSA management. We will be discussing the latest IED made from Woodord Reserve amd how this will effect PDB service.

[Yes, I know this is NRT and one can not blaim the TSA, but we do seam to the world leader in this insanity]

At DTW I've also seen Police Officers, with sidearm mind you, just walk in through the exit and TSA doesn't even bat an eye.

That is a horrible procedure. The man with the gun could have 5 inch long scissors and a 4 ounce bottle of water in his pocket. In the sterile area those two items could be a serious threat to the safety of the civil aviation system.

The new home for this discussion is the Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate forum, as this really has nothing to do with Delta Air Lines or the SkyMiles frequent flier loyalty program.

Regards,

Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Delta SkyMiles forum

Here in the USSA, everybody is a terrorist until proven innocent. That is, except low IQ thieves and perverts hired from pizza boxes.

The new home for this discussion is the Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate forum, as this really has nothing to do with Delta Air Lines or the SkyMiles frequent flier loyalty program.

Regards,

Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Delta SkyMiles forum

Should have guessed that "Checkpoints and Border Policy" is the logical forum to discuss Delta personnel declaring a medical emergency at a major DL station and the on-board response.

Apologies.

The TSA requires that any employee entering an aircraft bound for the US be frisked before entering (this is one reason that there are contract security agents standing at the Jetway entrance.)

That said, I have two thoughts:

1. It would be a complicated by potentially useful way to stage an attack. Have someone feign a serious medical condition, then have fake EMTs come on board.

2. Why don't these people have "trusted vendor" IDs that would let them aboard without further formalities?

3. The TSA is clearly unfamiliar with the "golden hour." How much myocardium died while waiting for the EMTs to be searched??

"We're just keeping you safe... by watching you die."

Should have guessed that "Checkpoints and Border Policy" is the logical forum to discuss Delta personnel declaring a medical emergency at a major DL station and the on-board response.

Apologies.It is a situation which could happen with the personnel of any airline at one of their major stations — and if indeed this is a policy where mere seconds could mean the difference between life and death, then should it not be important to share with other FlyerTalk members who may have observed similar experiences in a forum whose topic is travel safety?

The purpose of the move of this discussion was meant to be helpful, not punitive — and there is a re-direct in place in the Delta SkyMiles forum which will last for a month.

Your story doesn't hold water. EMT would have been at the gate prior. That's number one. Number 2) flight attendants don't frisk....ANYONE. We get "frisked" coming through security and we have access to the cockpit :rolleyes:. 3) Many lives are saved by flight attendants in air with CPR and defibrillation. Not to mention we page for medical and have a direct patch to a Doctor on the ground should medical volunteers not be present. Aircraft are equipped with a vast array of medicines as well as IV's and other vital equipment for use in flight.

You know what they say about assuming.



It seemed odd today to witness FA's, who called Narita paramedics for a man in cardiac distress, frisk both EMTs in the jetway before they were allowed to rush aboard. I thought EMT's operating at airports already had full clearance.

Elapsed time between the crew (DL 296) call and the techs arriving was roughly 21 minutes.

Your story doesn't hold water. EMT would have been at the gate prior. That's number one. ...

You know what they say about assuming.

I know what they say about assuming. The OP could be talking about the outbound from NRT to ATL, and the event could have happened before drparting. In that case it would have been unlikely for the EMT's to already be present at the gate.

Your story doesn't hold water. EMT would have been at the gate prior. That's number one. Number 2) flight attendants don't frisk....ANYONE. We get "frisked" coming through security and we have access to the cockpit :rolleyes:. 3) Many lives are saved by flight attendants in air with CPR and defibrillation. Not to mention we page for medical and have a direct patch to a Doctor on the ground should medical volunteers not be present. Aircraft are equipped with a vast array of medicines as well as IV's and other vital equipment for use in flight.

You know what they say about assuming.

Being a Paramedic I've responded to the local Airport more than once(GRB). We drive in at a special gate, then are escorted to the plane and go on board to start treatment. I've been retired for 2 1/2 years but never had anybody slow our arrival to the Pt. I've also been onboard a flight this last Memorial day when a person had a syncapol episode. I did go and help. The Doctor couldn't work the Chem Bg,(blood gluclose machine) and finally just went back to his seat. The flight attendent said the Pilot was asking if we needed to divert. I made the decission not to and gave him the pt.'s vitals and that she was improving. No complaints except she had been up for over 24 hrs, hadn't eaten but did have a drink onboard. Chem Bg was normal and she had no medical Hx. Paramedics are used to working in the mud, having the Pd hold a flashlight so we could see the veins to start a Iv. We are the MD, Respitory Therapist and nurse when all hell is breaking loose outside of the Hospital.
Yes some large airports do have EMT's and Paramedics on duty, but they usually have other duties too. But if they don't have them they call 911 and know exactly when we arrive and who was sent by 911. Here it could be Green Bay, Ashwaubenon, or Depere so it would be very unlikely someone just showing up and being in the right Rescue Squad. We also do yearly exercises with the Airport to coordinate responses and work out any problems before they can happen.

I thought basically all airports with air carrier services had to have ARFF (aircraft rescue and firefighting) on site as part of their Part 139 certification. Maybe EMTs and not paramedics, but I'd think they would have EMS available with airport IDs.

I've been called to the airport a number of times. For the most part to avoid TSA we drive on the tarmac to the jetway with a police or fire escort. Which we bypass TSA since they cause more harm then good.

TSA leaves us alone now, but 2 years was a different story.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15900230-post31.html

So now they are restricted to 6 ounces (for each EMT).


Interesting. So what happens when they need to run a bag of fluid? Standard IV bags are usually either 500 or 1000 ml (16.9ish to 22.8ish fl oz).

Yeah, it's a real pain to do a rapid infusion of a liter of saline using TEN 100 mL vials from a plastic bag :) Maybe we can work around it by having the TSA wave magic test strips over the IV bags.

On the other hand, we now have free portable x-ray from the backscatter machines.

Yeah, it's a real pain to do a rapid infusion of a liter of saline using TEN 100 mL vials from a plastic bag :) Maybe we can work around it by having the TSA wave magic test strips over the IV bags.

On the other hand, we now have free portable x-ray from the backscatter machines.

LMAO!

I thought basically all airports with air carrier services had to have ARFF (aircraft rescue and firefighting) on site as part of their Part 139 certification. Maybe EMTs and not paramedics, but I'd think they would have EMS available with airport IDs.

Yes they all have(CRF) Crash Fire Rescue. That refers to getting people out of the plane, foaming the plane and runway and rescuing people from the smoke or fire on the plane. EMS is not mandated, but many CRF people are cross trained as First Responders or EMT's. Only at the larger airports do they pay for the extra training to be a Paramedic. It probably costs the airport $10,000-15,000 more for the Paramedic training (2 years of schooling) and a extra $1,000 a year for continuning medical education per person. If they have high turnover that can get pretty expensive for the Airport.

Yeah, it's a real pain to do a rapid infusion of a liter of saline using TEN 100 mL vials from a plastic bag :) Maybe we can work around it by having the TSA wave magic test strips over the IV bags.

On the other hand, we now have free portable x-ray from the backscatter machines.

Yes that is a good one. ^

EWR-paramedics are on site from Newark's University Hospital.
JFK-ambulance is staffed by Port Authority PD police officer EMTs, paramedics come from Kennedy Medical Clinic.
LGA-ambulance from New York Hospital-Queens. Not sure if EMT or paramedic, but I would bet paramedic because of New York State Department of Health public event medical staffing requirements.

What's odd is that all three airports are covered by PAPD for policing and crash-rescue, yet they only provide EMS at one of the three. Many, many PAPD police officers have previous EMS experience (probably between 1/3-1/2 of the force were/are EMTs or paramedics.)

Scot

Yes they all have(CRF) Crash Fire Rescue.

Not any more. "Crash Fire Rescue" (CRF) was dumped many years ago in favor of "Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting" (ARFF). Purely semantics, though - it was to eliminate the word "crash."

Being a Paramedic <<SNIP>>The flight attendent said the Pilot was asking if we needed to divert. I made the decission not to and gave him the pt.'s vitals and that she was improving.

Hope this isn't too pedantic (is that even possible on FT?) but you didn't make that decision. You provided advice in the form of an opinion to the captain, who made the decision.

Hope this isn't too pedantic (is that even possible on FT?) but you didn't make that decision. You provided advice in the form of an opinion to the captain, who made the decision.

No you are correct, the pilot makes the choice. He may even have wanted the information to check with the Ground Medical for their opinion. ^

FYI for the public’s information from an available online SOP supposedly from a certain gumment agency, nothing in the redacted zone, I have no idea if this is real or an internet fabrication ;), bolding mine:

"T*A SCREENING MANAGEMENT SOP

4.3.8. EMERGENCY PERSONNEL

If emergency personnel (for example, law enforcement, fire, medical) approach a TSO, the TSO must notify the STSO. The STSO must permit emergency personnel responding to an emergency and their equipment into the sterile area without screening.

Emergency personnel must be accompanied into the sterile area by a sufficient number of escorts to preclude the transfer of a weapon between emergency personnel and other individuals in the sterile area. The escorts may be representatives of the airport or aircraft operator or individuals who are authorized unescorted access to the airport’s secured areas."

Okay, so we have some evidence that the TSA would not interrupt emergency personnel in the event of an emergency.

But the rule still stands for US carriers operating international flights to the United States. It sounds like the staff at Narita were following a rule that pre-dated the TSA: anyone with access to a US-operated plane must be searched.

The same rule (theoretically) applies to contract airline staff who are permitted access to a US-operated plane destined for Israel. If you watch at the gate, contract catering and support staff are frisked or wanded if they need to set foot on a Tel Aviv-bound flight.

I should add that these friskings or wandings are usually very, very brief and ceremonial. It's questionable if this serves any purpose at all, but it certainly would defy common sense in the setting of a life-threatening emergency.

FYI for the public’s information from an available online SOP supposedly from a certain gumment agency, nothing in the redacted zone, I have no idea if this is real or an internet fabrication ;), bolding mine:

"T*A SCREENING MANAGEMENT SOP

4.3.8. EMERGENCY PERSONNEL

If emergency personnel (for example, law enforcement, fire, medical) approach a TSO, the TSO must notify the STSO. The STSO must permit emergency personnel responding to an emergency and their equipment into the sterile area without screening.

Emergency personnel must be accompanied into the sterile area by a sufficient number of escorts to preclude the transfer of a weapon between emergency personnel and other individuals in the sterile area. The escorts may be representatives of the airport or aircraft operator or individuals who are authorized unescorted access to the airport’s secured areas."

&

Okay, so we have some evidence that the TSA would not interrupt emergency personnel in the event of an emergency.



The only problem is it has never happened that way...Again theory ("policy") and reality are 180 degrees off. When I've responded to the airport; TSA has been more of a hindernce that required LE involvement to get TSA removed so we could work and help the patient.

The TSA requires that any employee entering an aircraft bound for the US be frisked before entering (this is one reason that there are contract security agents standing at the Jetway entrance.)


That is an incorrect statement. If you can provide a citation, that'd be great. (This would be safer for you to do than for me to disclose how it's not.)


2. Why don't these people have "trusted vendor" IDs that would let them aboard without further formalities?


Large(r)airports have exactly a procedure in place for this.

Tehiota,

I should correct my statement.

Based on my observation in nine countries, non-crew who need to gain access to an aircraft operated by a US carrier have to be frisked or wanded.

There is usually contract agent standing at the entrance to the aircraft with a wand or to do the frisking.

I assumed that this was a TSA regulation (and it predates September 11th, so it was probably an FAA regulation before then.) I can't imagine that they would require this procedure without a US mandate.

It's possible that this only applies at "Category X" ("extraordinary risk") airports. Flights from Canada, Bermuda, etc. may be exempt.

You're right, I've never seen a document stating that this is the rule, but I've also haven't searched for one.