Hong Kong and Macau - HKG SAR at 15; tell me about the changes since 1st July, 1997

As a traveller who is really fond of Hong Kong, I thought the 15th anniversary of the handover of the former crown colony to PRC was time to look back and hopefully have a non-political discussion about the changes over the year.

My first trip was 27 Jun - 04 Jul, 1998 which was not only during the first anniversary of the SAR it was days before Kai Tak was closed to scheduled airline traffic and Chek Lap Kok opening. It was quite an experience arriving off a NW 747 after an memorable landing at around midnight when it was still a humid 30 celcius and coming off a cool airliner my glasses fogged up like beer mugs coming out of a fridge. :D

I've been back twice since '98 and explored more areas but that's not enough to spot the differences and is why I thought I would ask more frequent visitors and locals to discuss the changes the years have delivered, again hopefully in a non-political context as there's always OMNI P/R for that. I'm curious to here others input. :)

Majority of visitors are from mainland China. Line-ups in front of designer shops, all mainlanders (used to be Japanese tourists decades ago).

(It was kind of fun when we (native HKers) jumped to the front of the line at LV and the Chinese staff tried to stop us, while my friend talked to the Napalese security guard. We got in regardless and saw the commotion of the people waiting in line. We were not VIPs, just going to the art gallery inside the store.)


Government and public services now provide their services in mandarin and simplified Chinese, in addition to what they had before 97.

Around 1997 there was great anticipation of PRC rule. Now there is some longing for the British system and a distaste for PRC visitors.

Pre 1997, cheaper prices than today! :rolleyes:

Difficult to discuss this topic without having a political discussion.

Politics aside the two most obvious changes IMO are the increased pollution and the shrinking harbour.

Air quality worst in the early 2000's, but unrelated to the turnover.

For visitors, changes noticeable include more announcements in Putonghua, even worse English skills among young locals (which was bad to begin with) and more protests. Someone is protesting about something basically every Sunday. And of course the huge influx of mainland shoppers.

But other than those, not much noticeable changes on the surface. Just more buildings, more developments, etc. which would happen under English rule anyhow.

As someone from HK myself, I notice more and more changes as the years go by, and more and more Mainland influence.

We have way too many Mainland tourists now, when you walk around/take transport, you can hear more and more people speaking in Mandarin who are visitors.

Government and politics is increasingly integrated with Beijing and many HK people, including myself are increasingly becoming more anxious at what the future will continue to bring.

Despite these Mainland changes, the spirit of HK people is still strong and we have a very international, modern and cultural city which continues to amaze people around the world. I just hope we can stay this way.

... and a distaste for PRC visitors.

I seem to remember that even before '97. Way before. ;)

As a regular visitor to HK, even I'm quite shocked at all the PRC tourists and the mannerisms they bring. It's so bad that I don't even feel like spending $ at the boutiques because of all the shoving going on.

I left HK in 1994, but returning there at least once a year since then. There are changes I can feel such as the influx of mainlanders, and that you hear Mandarin everywhere. I hate seeing them everywhere especially in theme parks - they grabbed my kids and force them to take a pic with them. Once Mr. Nacho was there and he had to grab our kid back and told them no.

Mr. Nacho started visiting HK in 1998 - he is a westerner and HK is the first Asian place he has ever been to. He could feel the difference since 1998 until now, he thinks HK has become more and more Chinese. He also feels that HK people are jealous of Mainlanders - from what he heard from me reading HK newspapers and my classmates talked about how someone can dig out HKD 70k to buy an Armani leather jacket without even trying it on (she said, 'have no idea where these people got their money from' - she is not a sales girl btw).

I've lived in Hong Kong on and off since the hangover, probably half the time over the last 15 years. To me the city has become more Mainland Chinese, it has always been a Chinese city, no matter what the "World City" boosters have to say.

I think in general that is not a good thing, since the shift is towards rich Mainland Chinese, which aren't exactly German intellectuals fleeing the rise of the Nazi party in the 1930's. Flatly, they tend to be crass boors one step removed from hinterland peasants that spoil a good party. The moniker of "locusts", widely used in Hong Kong to describe them, is apt. Having the opportunity to buy the same Louis Vuitton or Prada crap in 15 different locations in town makes me sad.

On the other hand, I do think boho Hong Kong has come a long way, positively, and the cultural scene has actually improved dramatically. A lot more grassroots stuff going on, and even government-sponsored events and exhibitions. Political awareness and involvement is also much higher, which can be annoying but a sign of civic engagement, which wasn't the case during the British rule, at least to my recollection. This is probably driven by the fact that Hong Kongers are, paradoxically, much more in control of their future than during the British rule, where the only end-game was to kick them out. Now that they're gone, the possible scenarios for Hong Kong's future are many more, and that makes people engaged and invested in their future.

I've lived in Hong Kong on and off since the hangover

A 15 year hangover? :D

Having the opportunity to buy the same Louis Vuitton or Prada crap in 15 different locations in town makes me sad.

I sometimes think about that too - but then when you think about all the job created and all the sales generated from it, it's good for the economy to have an external buying power. At least Hong Kong can become a shopping paradise - and Hong Kong needs some kind of specialisation.

Hong Kong is definitely less competitive compared to other Chinese cities since the handover. I think for one reason is that HK is practically part of China, and it lost the independent status. Also I think the focus is also shifted from Hong Kong to other Chinese cities.

One thing that I really disliked is the HK govt has no power in restricting Mainlanders giving birth in Hong Kong and the babies got residency by birth.

A 15 year hangover? :D

A hangover would be more enjoyable than the handover.

To those saying a longing for British rule, I find that absurd, I don't think anyone likes being ruled by the Brits any more than they like it by the mainlander / PRC. We all know the saying: 港人治港！

I sometimes think about that too - but then when you think about all the job created and all the sales generated from it, it's good for the economy to have an external buying power. At least Hong Kong can become a shopping paradise - and Hong Kong needs some kind of specialisation.

The danger is that a big chunk of the economy becomes reliant on ONE industry catering to ONE single source of visitors. Chinese policies can change and the prices of luxury goods may become more competitive on the mainland, so there's much less need for mainlanders to come to HK.

Second thing is that while these visitors also spend a lot of money on food or other stuff, who's really being benefitted from all these shopping? Mostly the French/Italian luxury goods conglomerate AND the HK real estate owners. The sales persons or the servers or the hotel housekeepers are fairly low-earning jobs here.

Hong Kong is definitely less competitive compared to other Chinese cities since the handover. I think for one reason is that HK is practically part of China, and it lost the independent status. Also I think the focus is also shifted from Hong Kong to other Chinese cities.

Exactly. For example, not long ago, the HK container port was the busiest in the world. But now, why ship things from China THROUGH HK, when they can ship direct?

Currently, a lot of money is earned in HK in the financial factor. But when China caught up to the rest of the world with their banking and accouting systems, the importance of HK will diminish; just like its ports.

By then, what's left?

One thing that I really disliked is the HK govt has no power in restricting Mainlanders giving birth in Hong Kong and the babies got residency by birth.

Main problem is that there's no population policy. Just like there is no policy in many other aspects of the territory. The government is a weak one, since it's has no mandate, no democratic support from the population. So, they propose something, get criticized, and then turned 180-degree.

Oops... Got into politics. Will stop here.

The danger is that a big chunk of the economy becomes reliant on ONE industry catering to ONE single source of visitors. Chinese policies can change and the prices of luxury goods may become more competitive on the mainland, so there's much less need for mainlanders to come to HK.

Second thing is that while these visitors also spend a lot of money on food or other stuff, who's really being benefited from all these shopping? Mostly the French/Italian luxury goods conglomerate AND the HK real estate owners. The sales persons or the servers or the hotel housekeepers are fairly low-earning jobs here.

It's still better than NO income and NO job. Hong Kong is still benefiting from selling genuine items, from milk powder to medicine to hand bags.

I know some HK people earn very little - you don't even have to look for housekeeping staffs, just look at McDonalds.


Exactly. For example, not long ago, the HK container port was the busiest in the world. But now, why ship things from China THROUGH HK, when they can ship direct?

Currently, a lot of money is earned in HK in the financial factor. But when China caught up to the rest of the world with their banking and accouting systems, the importance of HK will diminish; just like its ports.

By then, what's left?

I think the harbour will still be there, hopefully. It's established and there aren't any big ports around HK except Shanghai.

I know, I'm also worried about HK's future - what's left? What's their core competence?

Main problem is that there's no population policy. Just like there is no policy in many other aspects of the territory. The government is a weak one, since it's has no mandate, no democratic support from the population. So, they propose something, get criticized, and then turned 180-degree.

Oops... Got into politics. Will stop here.

Totally agree, and the funny thing is that no political/opposition parties brought up the topic. People are so annoyed about it. I kind of know that the policy encourages birth rate - which makes sense because birth rate in HK is low.

I can see more HK resentment towards mainlanders - my family who lives in Hong Kong feels very annoyed by them populating Hong Kong - they have given up on going to Ocean Park, Disneyland, New Town Plaza, Festival Walk...... they said they'd rather stay at home.

Letting Mainlanders coming to HK like this is the most efficient way for China to take back Hong Kong - you don't even need liberation army :D

... I can see more HK resentment towards mainlanders - my family who lives in Hong Kong feels very annoyed by them populating Hong Kong - they have given up on going to Ocean Park, Disneyland, New Town Plaza, Festival Walk...... they said they'd rather stay at home. ...

How about giving birth at a hospital? you can't stay home for that. But again, there is surplus capacity in the maternity wards in HK; if only they get paid for the services rendered.

... Letting Mainlanders coming to HK like this is the most efficient way for China to take back Hong Kong - you don't even need liberation army :D

^^^ :D

As someone who was born in HK and lived for first 12 years of my life in relatively privileged HK and still have some family roots and strong business and consulting tie there; this is my take:

HK is like the divorced child. Having lived in boarding school exclusively while knowing about the parent and now has moved back with that parent without any growing up ties.
All Chinese know how assertive parents can be.

HK is like the divorced child. Having lived in boarding school exclusively while knowing about the parent and now has moved back with that parent without any growing up ties.
All Chinese know how assertive parents can be.

I like today's cartoon in the SCIMPY. At a 15th birthday party, British bulldog asks Chinese panda bear, "so, how's the SAR these days?" and panda bear says, "judgmental, rebellious, ungrateful, surly, prone to mood swings, too cool to be seen with us, but occasionally charming when it wants something... much like any 15-year-old."

^^^

I like today's cartoon in the SCIMPY. At a 15th birthday party, British bulldog asks Chinese panda bear, "so, how's the SAR these days?" and panda bear says, "judgmental, rebellious, ungrateful, surly, prone to mood swings, too cool to be seen with us, but occasionally charming when it wants something... much like any 15-year-old."

How about giving birth at a hospital? you can't stay home for that. But again, there is surplus capacity in the maternity wards in HK; if only they get paid for the services rendered.

My mum is done with that more than 20 yrs ago, my siblings are single - with no plans for marriage or having children :D.

There is very capacity in the maternity wards in HK - I read something in Ming Pao a while ago about 1 midwife have to cope with 3 births at the same time in a hospital. Its supposed to be at least 1:1, and that is for normal birth. For complicated birth, you'll need more staff, I have been through that.

What about the one the ran through the border and rushed to the emergency rooms? And those who gave birth to handicap kids and left them behind?

There are FB group for mothers protesting mainlander women taking up spaces at maternity wards. My friend told me that her sis in law gave birth at a public hospital and she is the only native in the ward, the rest are mainlanders :(

Once in a while I was thinking about giving birth in HK to give my kids HK residency, and Mr. Nacho doesn't like the idea and I was scared after hearing all those stories.

A lot of people have to start booking for hospital as soon as they found out they are pregnant.

IMO it's ridiculous. I know the ward shouldn't be empty but at the same time you shouldn't need to choose a hospital as soon as you are pregnant.

I just caught a BBC News story about how poor Hong Kong's air quality and it's rated as among the worst in Asia. I hadn't heard that up until now so thought it was only a mainland problem.

I just caught a BBC News story about how poor Hong Kong's air quality and it's rated as among the worst in Asia. I hadn't heard that up until now so thought it was only a mainland problem.

Pollution doesn't stop at borders. Hong Kong is just dozens of kilometers away from one of the biggest manufacturing centers of all of China - in Dongguan between HK and Guangzhou!

But again, good thing is that air quality hit bottom around 5-6 years ago. Many smaller - meaning older and worse-polluting - ones have shut down. The main ones now are modern factories building high-tech stuff for foreign companies. Air quality is quite acceptable in Hong Kong now. In fact, we get very blue skies the last few days here.

And more to the point, I've moved back here for a year, and haven't had any serious respiratory disease yet. Before, any stay of over a week almost guaranteed coughing.

Seems like 15 years later there is a stronger "HK identity" than ever before... 1997 was a honeymoon period after getting rid of the "gwai lo's" and finally returning to China... but then people saw that the mainlanders were different from them just as the gwai lo's were. 100+ years of separation has created this unique identity.

I think the harbour will still be there, hopefully. It's established and there aren't any big ports around HK except Shanghai.

Shenzhen and Guangzhou are both major ports, 10 years ago they couldn't hold a candle to HK even combined but they are serious competitors to HK now.

I first visited HK in the later years of British rule when I was a kid. It was the first place I remember travelling to and I've been there many times since and now (at least officially) live here. I saw the influx of HKers move to Vancouver in the 90s to escape the Chinese government and living in Canada at the time only strengthened my affinity towards HK. HK is such a special place but I feel everyday it is becoming more eroded by Mainlanders. I travel often to a few cities in the Pearl River Delta and I cannot even begin to describe how much more comfortable I feel in HK than those cities. I fear one day I may not notice the difference.

Seems like 15 years later there is a stronger "HK identity" than ever before... 1997 was a honeymoon period after getting rid of the "gwai lo's" and finally returning to China... but then people saw that the mainlanders were different from them just as the gwai lo's were. 100+ years of separation has created this unique identity.

HK people never cared about getting rid of the British (or other foreigners), and there was never any "honeymoon" or anything. Locals didn't have a say in any of this anyways.

As for current "HK Identity", seriously I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just "We speak Cantonese and we don't eat on MTR (but it's okay to eat on buses if we do it discretely)"; but that doesn't mean we are necessary more courteous. Look at all the local young people rushing onto MTR trains and grab the seats, with no regard for older folks or pregnant ladies needing the seats. So, yeah, they don't eat there, but are HK people really THAT civil? Hardly.

Shenzhen and Guangzhou are both major ports, 10 years ago they couldn't hold a candle to HK even combined but they are serious competitors to HK now.

Exactly!!! Go to Northwest part of the N.T. in HK and you can see all the massive container terminal cranes in Shekou; or go to the Northeast part and see all those in Yantian. You don't even need to get out of the HK to see all those. And if you fly into/out of SZX, even more apparent how huge the ports of Shenzhen are.

Or ask those who used to make good money driving container trucks across the border. Most of them have switched careers and now drive green minibuses and making much less. I live near Yuen Long, and the long lines for trucks crossing the border has all but disappeared (though also due to faster processing). Point is, why ship things from China through HK when you can ship direct? What does HK produce that require shipping through containers? Nothing!

[Actually, I do have future relatives who are cross-border truckers. Their jobs are still secure because for some companies, it's still more secure to ship things directly from their Chinese factories through HK rather than Chinese ports, for highly valuable stuff (in terms of material and/or intellectual rights). But the volume of these stuff is much less than general merchandise.]

I just caught a BBC News story about how poor Hong Kong's air quality and it's rated as among the worst in Asia. I hadn't heard that up until now so thought it was only a mainland problem.

even back in 2000, there's the joke among expats. During CNY they would stay in HK rather to travel elsewhere, because that's the only time HK had clean air, as all the factories north of the border shut down for the holiday.

Greetings, all.

My first visit to HK was in 1995, and I was also there during the handover thing in 1997.

I love HK, hanging out by the pool at the Grand Hyatt, in particular.

The thing is, many things have changed during the course of the past 15 years.

Back then, people in Beijing were very poor -- a meal at McDonalds was considered luxurious, people had no fashion sense whatsoever, the majority of taxis displayed Mao images on their dashboards, everyone rode bicycles, and there were weekly brownouts outside the 3rd Ring Road.

Present day: these people are really rich; even the lowest paid employees at my company all have the latest Apple products, and there are 8 Lambos in apartment complex alone.

Sure, they still spit and smoke, but you must come to terms with the fact that they are no longer inferior to your ranks (e.g. they spend far more money at Dragon I than the average Hongkie).

Slightly off topic, I drove past a shipping port in Shenzhen (east side) last week that was simply massive... maybe 2 miles long.

I will always like HK, and my favorite swimming pool, but China is where the action is (IMO).

Sure, they still spit and smoke, but you must come to terms with the fact that they are no longer inferior to your ranks (e.g. they spend far more money at Dragon I than the average Hongkie).


I don't believe the majority of us think that they are inferior, but rather different. While it is ignorant for Hongkongers or Mainlanders to think of each other as being "inferior", it would be equally as ignorant to continue to believe that no cultural divide exists between the two groups.

And at DI? Don't see too many Mainlanders, perhaps if you wandered to Beijing Club.

Born and educated in HK, I relocated overseas since 2007. I feel that HK is now a bit direction-less: tries to remain a place where east meets west (no one really think it still is) but at the same time wants (struggles) to be the no. 1 in China; becomes hyper-sensitive to whatever ranking or opinions foreign institutes/researchers/journals/reporters say about HK; local Hong Kong chinese who have a good command of English are really rare.

HK is farther and farther away from me now, emotionally speaking. Whether it is because I am now a more international-oriented expat or HK becomes less so, I am not sure.

I don't believe the majority of us think that they are inferior, but rather different. While it is ignorant for Hongkongers or Mainlanders to think of each other as being "inferior", it would be equally as ignorant to continue to believe that no cultural divide exists between the two groups.

And at DI? Don't see too many Mainlanders, perhaps if you wandered to Beijing Club.

50 bottles of Dom just last week, paid for by a mainlander. I don't know how rare this is, but I saw it happen.

50 bottles of Dom just last week, paid for by a mainlander. I don't know how rare this is, but I saw it happen.

Ah, yes, of course there will be loaded Mainlanders dropping ridiculous amounts. Perhaps it was my mistake from misreading your post as I thought there were large numbers of Mainlanders at DI.

Of course, DI makes for interesting scenes. How often have you seen local international school kids drop 10k+ a night? Probably every weekend.

Not a particularly crowning achievement on either side, however.

Present day: these people are really rich; even the lowest paid employees at my company all have the latest Apple products, and there are 8 Lambos in apartment complex alone.

Sure, they still spit and smoke, but you must come to terms with the fact that they are no longer inferior to your ranks (e.g. they spend far more money at Dragon I than the average Hongkie).

Nobody said anything about them being inferior. But having the money to buy 50 bottles of Dom or 8 Lambos or whatever doesn't hide the fact that they're one generation removed from having been illiterate peasants.

I think another problem for the Mainlanders that are visit HK are the one that can't afford to go far. Now that Chinese can go anywhere they like and you see more civilised ones here in Europe.

I really hate the fact that malls in HK are biased towards mainlanders - e.g. Telford gives out $50 coupon if you shopped more than $1000 only to Mainland Chinese Passport holders. Hey what about all the locals and other tourists? I spent money too - I do my annual shopping in HK - PCs, clothes, etc.

Either they should let everyone enjoy the promo or for ALL foreign passport holders.

I think another problem for the Mainlanders that are visit HK are the one that can't afford to go far. Now that Chinese can go anywhere they like and you see more civilised ones here in Europe.

I really hate the fact that malls in HK are biased towards mainlanders - e.g. Telford gives out $50 coupon if you shopped more than $1000 only to Mainland Chinese Passport holders. Hey what about all the locals and other tourists? I spent money too - I do my annual shopping in HK - PCs, clothes, etc.

Either they should let everyone enjoy the promo or for ALL foreign passport holders.

That's not even the real problem, the real problem is those moving to HK and living here are not the talented or civilized or well off individuals but rather the ones that take more than they give.

As for the coupons - this is not just HK, it's all over Asia. I've seen a similar promotion in Thailand and I suspect many other countries as well.

That's not even the real problem, the real problem is those moving to HK and living here are not the talented or civilized or well off individuals but rather the ones that take more than they give.

I agree and disagree - you need unskilled labour to take the dirty jobs, such as emptying trash, clean street, toilet etc. A lot of HK people don't even bother taking jobs like this. However they shouldn't be entitled to benefits as soon as they step their feet into HK soil.

HK is repeating the mistake that a lot of European countries made - letting tons of unskilled worker from Turkey or Pakistan in without a solid plan on how to deal with them in the long run.

It's annoying to think about this because I try to get my kids HK PR (to make them feel that they are also from HK too), but HK Immigration Dept rejected their applications - fine - we are both educated with post-Grad degrees and our kids are well off and we won't be burdening the society in any way, since if we ever live in HK they won't be going to local schools.

So if HK Govt decided to let these people in, but not our kids, it's their lost.

As for the coupons - this is not just HK, it's all over Asia. I've seen a similar promotion in Thailand and I suspect many other countries as well.

In Singapore it's for ALL with foreign passports - we visited there back in Dec.

I spent money too - I do my annual shopping in HK - PCs, clothes, etc.


That's an interesting development. On the first couple of years after I relocated overseas, I did have a long stock-up list everytime I visited HK; however, now for the majority of stuffs, there are no longer huge benefits for me to buy there.

First reason, things in HK are more expensive now and the price differentials (with overseas purchase) are reduced; second reason, many European brands and department stores now offer nternational deliveries on their websites at a minimal costs. I can buy from them directly instead of waiting until I go to HK and shop at their stores. Now I shop directly on M&S, John Lewis, etc. on their websites directly.

The few things that I still think I really need to buy in HK are clothes (owing to lack of proper sizes for Asian overseas).

Nobody said anything about them being inferior. But having the money to buy 50 bottles of Dom or 8 Lambos or whatever doesn't hide the fact that they're one generation removed from having been illiterate peasants.

The majority of the parents of today's uber rich Chinese were never peasants. The coal mine owners are a possible exception to this rule, but at least they had the brains to purchase coal mines in the early 80s, which now generate ~$600,000 (US) per day on the bottom line. Maybe they're not book smart, but they're doing a lot better for themselves in the financial category than 99.9% of us.

The more common group of wealthy Chinese people are connected to the government/army in some way, shape, or form. If your dad's job consists or consisted of approving business licenses in Shanghai for a 10+ year stretch, then he probably was never a starving peasant... even though he probably rode a bicycle until the turn of the century just to fit in.

I look at these matters from the perspective of selling things to them. Simply put, they are a business owner's wet dream. I will shower them with coupons until the cows come home if that's what it takes to relieve them of their excess cash.

As for the coupons - this is not just HK, it's all over Asia. I've seen a similar promotion in Thailand and I suspect many other countries as well.
Saw one in Korea as well a couple of months ago. Apparently, to keep up with competition from China's new domestic duty-free shopping they're going to build a duty-free shop at ICN for foreigners (which really means Mainland Chinese) only, because some people complained that there were too many Koreans shopping at the existing duty-free shops. :rolleyes: Sadly, it's not just HK which is bending over for China.

Saw one in Korea as well a couple of months ago. Apparently, to keep up with competition from China's new domestic duty-free shopping they're going to build a duty-free shop at ICN for foreigners (which really means Mainland Chinese) only, because some people complained that there were too many Koreans shopping at the existing duty-free shops. :rolleyes: Sadly, it's not just HK which is bending over for China.

Nope - not just HK, not just Asia, visit any of the shopping malls in Paris and you will see huge queues of Mainlanders, massive signs in simplified Chinese and a significant number of maindarin-speaking "mall-guides".

That's an interesting development. On the first couple of years after I relocated overseas, I did have a long stock-up list everytime I visited HK; however, now for the majority of stuffs, there are no longer huge benefits for me to buy there.

First reason, things in HK are more expensive now and the price differentials (with overseas purchase) are reduced; second reason, many European brands and department stores now offer nternational deliveries on their websites at a minimal costs. I can buy from them directly instead of waiting until I go to HK and shop at their stores. Now I shop directly on M&S, John Lewis, etc. on their websites directly.

The few things that I still think I really need to buy in HK are clothes (owing to lack of proper sizes for Asian overseas).

Depending on where you are, I'm in Scandinavia - even buying things from amazon.co.uk I'll have to pay 25% VAT vs whatever the Brits pay. A lot of online shops charges full VAT of 25% and the makes everything 25% more expensive.

Yes some Chinese things are more easy to find, like you can get Nissin noodles in Sweden, but they don't have XO sauce seafood flavour.

I like to dirt cheap outlet shopping in HK - I don't shop at regular shops in HK. I go to Sham Shui Po, Tsuen Wan, Stanley to find European Brand outlets.

They are dirt cheap comparing to here in Scandinavia or even Germany.

I also bought DS, SD card, laptop etc. from HK.

The majority of the parents of today's uber rich Chinese were never peasants. The coal mine owners are a possible exception to this rule, but at least they had the brains to purchase coal mines in the early 80s, which now generate ~$600,000 (US) per day on the bottom line. Maybe they're not book smart, but they're doing a lot better for themselves in the financial category than 99.9% of us.

The more common group of wealthy Chinese people are connected to the government/army in some way, shape, or form. If your dad's job consists or consisted of approving business licenses in Shanghai for a 10+ year stretch, then he probably was never a starving peasant... even though he probably rode a bicycle until the turn of the century just to fit in.

I look at these matters from the perspective of selling things to them. Simply put, they are a business owner's wet dream. I will shower them with coupons until the cows come home if that's what it takes to relieve them of their excess cash.

That's why HK people love and hate them. A lot of locals I talked to about Chinese wealthy people - first thing they said was, 'I think it's illegal money'.

In some way it could be true because you need to have connection to get rich. Also not a big part of Chinese population is like that - there are tons of poor people in China.

I hope the situation will change over time because I don't want China ends up to be like India - a big division between rich and poor.

I like to dirt cheap outlet shopping in HK - I don't shop at regular shops in HK. I go to Sham Shui Po, Tsuen Wan, Stanley to find European Brand outlets.

They are dirt cheap comparing to here in Scandinavia or even Germany.

I also bought DS, SD card, laptop etc. from HK.

Smart - I always find that I can get little electronic things such as memory cards and whatnot for the best price in the world in Wan Chai.

That's why HK people love and hate them. A lot of locals I talked to about Chinese wealthy people - first thing they said was, 'I think it's illegal money'.

In some way it could be true because you need to have connection to get rich. Also not a big part of Chinese population is like that - there are tons of poor people in China.


Hard to blame the suspicions of many when you consider the number of heavy spenders who have some sort of connection to the government... including the latest Bo Xilai case. And who else has seen Mainlanders coming in and buying things like Rolex watches straight from stacks of cash in a LV suitcase? Surely something illegal going on there...?

Nope - not just HK, not just Asia, visit any of the shopping malls in Paris and you will see huge queues of Mainlanders, massive signs in simplified Chinese and a significant number of maindarin-speaking "mall-guides".

5 years ago CDG was already full of Chinese signs - they even have Chinese sales lady in Duty Free shops.

5 years ago LV shop in CPH DT also has a Chinese sales lady.

It's a smart move, and now I don't have to tell those sales people that I'm not Japanese :D.

The only place that I was greeted in Japanese was Marimekko outlet in Helsinki, it's silly of them still focus on the Jap. market.

That's why HK people love and hate them. A lot of locals I talked to about Chinese wealthy people - first thing they said was, 'I think it's illegal money'.

In some way it could be true because you need to have connection to get rich. Also not a big part of Chinese population is like that - there are tons of poor people in China.

I hope the situation will change over time because I don't want China ends up to be like India - a big division between rich and poor.

I took a class in school around 15 years ago on newly industrializing countries, taught by an Indian professor. One of the few things I remember from that course now was his perspective on education, as it pertained to why China and India are different beasts.

China's approach is/was universal literacy at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd... levels (basically, once they accomplished one hurdle, they moved onto the next).

Meanwhile, India created a system that permitted the smartest 2% of its population to achieve world class educations all they way up to the PhD level in country. This created a huge divide between the "haves" and the "have nots". Worse yet, companies like McKinsey and Goldman simply poached the best and the brightest and brought them overseas.

This is not the case in China. While the coal miner kids will always be richer than god, pretty much anyone with a college degree who makes his/her way to Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, or Guangzhou can make a lot of money if they care to apply themselves. In fact, the top performing sales person in my company hails from a poor family in Anhui. I'm not sure if she even went to college; basically, the job market is so hot (for them) that we're willing to hire pretty much anyone who is reasonably intelligent and presentable. We drop the ones that fail to perform during their probationary periods, but we provide all with a chance to succeed, and many do.

This is not the case in China. While the coal miner kids will always be richer than god, pretty much anyone with a college degree who makes his/her way to Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, or Guangzhou can make a lot of money if they care to apply themselves.
:rolleyes: Just like America, right? Yes, there is more opportunity in China than India for young people to drag themselves out of poverty but saying it like that is an extreme over-simplification which ignores many deeply-ingrained societal problems.
And who else has seen Mainlanders coming in and buying things like Rolex watches straight from stacks of cash in a LV suitcase? Surely something illegal going on there...?
We all know there is no distinction between legal, "legal" and illegal when it comes to rich Mainlanders. ;)
The only place that I was greeted in Japanese was Marimekko outlet in Helsinki, it's silly of them still focus on the Jap. market.
To be fair, Mainlanders are just starting to visit the places where the Japanese tourists were 10 years ago. Japanese tastes have broadened and you find them in more "exotic" and trendy destinations like Istanbul now rather than the Paris/Rome/etc. drudgery which the Chinese have gleefully taken over.

We all know there is no distinction between legal, "legal" and illegal when it comes to rich Mainlanders. ;)


That is true, as anyone who begins to spend just a little time in China doing business will soon find out.

But then again, there's a limit on the amount of cash one can bring across the China-HK border, and a suitcase stuffed full of red RMB notes definitely does not fall under that limit. But HK retailers absolutely love it when they get it in cold, hard cash.

HK people never cared about getting rid of the British (or other foreigners), and there was never any "honeymoon" or anything. Locals didn't have a say in any of this anyways.

As for current "HK Identity", seriously I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just "We speak Cantonese and we don't eat on MTR (but it's okay to eat on buses if we do it discretely)"; but that doesn't mean we are necessary more courteous. Look at all the local young people rushing onto MTR trains and grab the seats, with no regard for older folks or pregnant ladies needing the seats. So, yeah, they don't eat there, but are HK people really THAT civil? Hardly.

I am not so sure about this (bolded). Being a resident here, I do see more and more people rushing onto the trains, which is disconcerting.

However, I was on a date a few months back with a local girl when we saw an old lady who just crossed the street randomly fall. It was clear that she was not ok and before I could even react, my date sprinted over to her, and made sure she was ok. Simultaneously, two other local women who were on the other side of the street literally also sprinted over and along with me, helped her gather her things, made sure she was ok, refused to let her get on the bus (which she insisted upon), hailed a cab, gave the cabby money for the fare, explained the situation and told the guy to make sure she made it home safe.

I also have seen numerous instances in which younger folks (like myself - agewise) have given up their seats on the MTR to older folks or pregnant ladies.

Far different from what I saw when I was living in Mainland China (although this was a while back - '06-'08) or on my subsequent trips back (numerous.)

Nobody said anything about them being inferior. But having the money to buy 50 bottles of Dom or 8 Lambos or whatever doesn't hide the fact that they're one generation removed from having been illiterate peasants.

So?

We may find it tacky, I know I do at times, but plenty of folks who had a hard life previously or never got to enjoy now feel that this is how they want to do it. As folks in this space of society get used to such things, it will get tiresome and they'll move on, like others do. No biggie. Then there will be another group of nouveaux riche for folks to look down upon.

I took a class in school around 15 years ago on newly industrializing countries, taught by an Indian professor. One of the few things I remember from that course now was his perspective on education, as it pertained to why China and India are different beasts.

China's approach is/was universal literacy at the 1st, 2nd, 3rd... levels (basically, once they accomplished one hurdle, they moved onto the next).

Meanwhile, India created a system that permitted the smartest 2% of its population to achieve world class educations all they way up to the PhD level in country. This created a huge divide between the "haves" and the "have nots". Worse yet, companies like McKinsey and Goldman simply poached the best and the brightest and brought them overseas.

This is not the case in China. While the coal miner kids will always be richer than god, pretty much anyone with a college degree who makes his/her way to Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, or Guangzhou can make a lot of money if they care to apply themselves. In fact, the top performing sales person in my company hails from a poor family in Anhui. I'm not sure if she even went to college; basically, the job market is so hot (for them) that we're willing to hire pretty much anyone who is reasonably intelligent and presentable. We drop the ones that fail to perform during their probationary periods, but we provide all with a chance to succeed, and many do.

Too late - that gap continues to increase in China (we already knew it was there in India) and what must make it furstrating is that many have college educations...

Talking to a lot of people I know I might have to disagree with Moondog on the labor market for young people with educations. It's very tough and competitive and even then folks are struggling to get by with high real estate prices, food inflation, food safety etc.

The more common group of wealthy Chinese people are connected to the government/army in some way, shape, or form. If your dad's job consists or consisted of approving business licenses in Shanghai for a 10+ year stretch, then he probably was never a starving peasant... even though he probably rode a bicycle until the turn of the century just to fit in.


This is very true. I would like to write more but better leave it at this.

Dr.Pickles is, however, well versed in Chinese realities, I believe.

Too late - that gap continues to increase in China (we already knew it was there in India) and what must make it furstrating is that many have college educations...

Talking to a lot of people I know I might have to disagree with Moondog on the labor market for young people with educations. It's very tough and competitive and even then folks are struggling to get by with high real estate prices, food inflation, food safety etc.

I shall reiterate that my Shanghai company will hire almost anyone with a pulse for 5k per month (including their social insurance). If they are completely incompetent, we cut them loose, but most of them generate more revenue than they cost us, so we keep them around. The 3.5k they take home every month is actually pretty good because they don't have many substantial living expenses (either stay with parents or parents paid for apartment, y10 lunch at the office, somebody else always pays for dinner, subway to/from work)... they save their remaining funds to buy iPhones and go to HK in order to buy things that they don't need.

Guess we need more companies like Moondog's for youth in China!

Guess we need more companies like Moondog's for youth in China!
I don't think someone in their 20s earning RMB 5k per month doing some presumably sales-related job and living with their parents is social mobility. It solves the unemployment problem, but so would working in a factory or at a fast-food restaurant.

I don't think someone in their 20s earning RMB 5k per month doing some presumably sales-related job and living with their parents is social mobility. It solves the unemployment problem, but so would working in a factory or at a fast-food restaurant.

5k per month might be below average for a 18/19 year old summer intern in Hong Kong, essentially I see how if the employee is just somewhat competent they could make up for 5k's worth of expenses, especially if they are desperate for a job, career etc.

Although measures vary, I think estimated China's per capita GDP was between $4500-$5200 per year. Assuming its the latter, that would be about $433 per month or (assuming current CNY/UDS exchange rates of 6.35 to $1) about RMB 2,750 per month. If Moondog's company or others are offering RMB 5,000 per month that's noticeably over the average person. RMB 5000 per month is about RMB 60,000 per year which is nearly $9,500 per year. Not too shabby me thinks. Regardless, this is MUCH more than a waiter/waitress or factory worker makes.

CX HK - starting salaries for a lot of local HK jobs (in shops etc) are often as little as HKD 7,000 I think (maybe less and someone with better knowledge can correct me).

Not too shabby me thinks. Regardless, this is MUCH more than a waiter/waitress or factory worker makes.
Absolutely it is. I don't disagree with that in any way. I was just saying that these 20-somethings earning an income which earns them enough money to buy a few things and live with their parents doesn't improve social mobility at all. An iPhone does not change their socioeconomic status. The $5400 GDP per capita is an average of the entire country, most of which is very poor. In the major cities GDP per capita is at least $10000 per person, and in Shanghai, the most modern and highest HDI city in the Mainland the GDP per capita exceeds $15000. Is $9500 a horrible salary? No, they won't be sleeping in a 24 hour fast-food restaurant like some people but they won't be breaking any class barriers either.

CX HK - starting salaries for a lot of local HK jobs (in shops etc) are often as little as HKD 7,000 I think (maybe less and someone with better knowledge can correct me).
Income inequality in HK is pretty much just as bad as China imo, although social mobility for the young is better. You're right that certain low-level jobs (working in a small Chinese shop, foreign domestic workers, cleaners, etc.) pay frighteningly low wages, although I'm not sure how much exactly they pay because I'm not a native HK resident.

I don't think someone in their 20s earning RMB 5k per month doing some presumably sales-related job and living with their parents is social mobility. It solves the unemployment problem, but so would working in a factory or at a fast-food restaurant.

I partially agree with you, but please allow me to make a few more clarifying points:

1) I've lived/worked in India, and my entry level colleagues were --for lack of a better word-- poor (i.e. no iPhones, no LV bags, no vacations to the Maldives)
2) 3.5k per month is the entry level wage in Shanghai --I'm pretty sure McDonalds pays the same, but any xiao bai ling with half a brain should be able to clear 10k within 18 months
3) due to the one child policy that was enforced during the 80s, the majority of the 80年后generation kids have 2 parents and 4 grandparents showering them with money at every turn
*maybe this doesn't constitute "social mobility", but their spending power is substantial
4) Shanghai is still far more affordable than HK, though the gap is closing fast
5) sometimes I compare my life immediately after college to those of our entry level employees; while I made quite a bit more money than them (inflation adjusted), I honestly think that they have a better overall gig (but, then again, my parents didn't buy me a house and a BMW when i was 21)

3) due to the one child policy that was enforced during the 80s, the majority of the 80年后generation kids have 2 parents and 4 grandparents showering them with money at every turn
*maybe this doesn't constitute "social mobility", but their spending power is substantial
I can attest to this one, my Shanghainese former girlfriend is living proof. :D

I can attest to this one, my Shanghainese former girlfriend is living proof. :D

Hard to support one wife who used to be supported by four people. :D Maybe the wife sharing concept does have merits? @:-):p

We can agree to disagree whether or not Chinese visitors are good for HK, but I'd like to revisit the core theme of this thread in this post.

Having spent half of my life in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong (without much bias; I like all three cities for different reasons), today, I challenged myself to think about what has changed and what has stayed the same in all 3 cases. For the most part, I would argue that not as much has changed as we are lead to believe by Fox News and the Economist.

Using the HK example, I rewatched The World of Susie Wong a few days ago. It was filmed 62 years ago, but much remains the same:

-Star Ferry
-Wanchai (was sleazy then, is sleazy now, and many of us like it)
-a handful of white people living in the presence of Chinese
-buildings constructed 100 years ago that still exist

Fast forward 45 years to my first HK experiences:

-7/11s and McD's everywhere
-TST as a tourist ghetto (during that time frame, I stayed at the Kimberly, Windsor, Sheraton, Marco Polo, and some random place on Jordan Road myself)
-youngish expats live in Mid Levels and hang out in LKF
-if you wanted to buy cheap crap, you went to Mongkok, or Shenzhen (if you were brave)
-the Penn already had its legendary bathrooms, in spite of the fact the few "island folks" ever journeyed across the harbor unless they had to

What's different now?:

-the majority of the people I know who got Canadian passports eventually moved back
-naturally there a lot of new buildings (same goes for pretty much every city in the world)
-LKF has gotten bigger (not in the literal sense; it's just revelers venture a bit further away from it these days)
-Beijing is playing a larger and larger part in the show
*while I feel bad that they killed your government, were things really any better back then? (HK "democracy" helped elevate the tycoons -- who control 90% of your stock market -- to their present levels)
*using $28 billion to build the airport prior to the handover was an ingenious move, by the way (that's money that would have found its way to Beijing, had it not been spent, and the project made HK a nicer city)

Well, for the locals, the main difference now and about 17-18 years ago are affordibility of housing - which directly links of standard of living, as housing costs is the biggest portion of money spent for most workers.

The run up of housing prices didn't start exactly on July 1, 1997; but many doubted that the Brits will let it rise to current levels if there were no handover. And recent hikes are directly linked to hot money from China, speculating in HK real estates.

That is a main reason for the "unhappiness" of many working class people in HK. Those that are renting, or paying mortgage on the one apartments they're living in. And there's a huge divide between them and those who have extra apartments as investments - and enjoying the rise in property prices.

[Having said that, there are still fairly affordable housing somewhere. I am typing from my very comfortable "village home" in the N.T., 700sq ft with 700sq ftof roof top, and cost about the same as a 300sq ft apartment on HK Island. As long as I don't mind the commute (about 50 minutes by public transportation to Central) and don't have kids attending schools in the city.]

Well, for the locals, the main difference now and about 17-18 years ago are affordibility of housing - which directly links of standard of living, as housing costs is the biggest portion of money spent for most workers.
I agree this is the biggest problem. The poor in HK see their lives getting harder every year with little change in wages on the low end while housing costs continue to reach new heights.

I'm going on long-term assignment to Taipei soon and taking everything with me. I'm gutted to leave HK but the one thing I am looking forward to is the (relatively) cheap housing. I'm paying through the nose for my place in Sha Tin, which was fine when I first came here on a cushy salary but now that I've been relegated to "lesser" work continuing to live here has been very unaffordable.

We can agree to disagree whether or not Chinese visitors are good for HK, but I'd like to revisit the core theme of this thread in this post.

Having spent half of my life in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong (without much bias; I like all three cities for different reasons), today, I challenged myself to think about what has changed and what has stayed the same in all 3 cases. For the most part, I would argue that not as much has changed as we are lead to believe by Fox News and the Economist.

Using the HK example, I rewatched The World of Susie Wong a few days ago. It was filmed 62 years ago, but much remains the same:

-Star Ferry
-Wanchai (was sleazy then, is sleazy now, and many of us like it)
-a handful of white people living in the presence of Chinese
-buildings constructed 100 years ago that still exist

Fast forward 45 years to my first HK experiences:

-7/11s and McD's everywhere
-TST as a tourist ghetto (during that time frame, I stayed at the Kimberly, Windsor, Sheraton, Marco Polo, and some random place on Jordan Road myself)
-youngish expats live in Mid Levels and hang out in LKF
-if you wanted to buy cheap crap, you went to Mongkok, or Shenzhen (if you were brave)
-the Penn already had its legendary bathrooms, in spite of the fact the few "island folks" ever journeyed across the harbor unless they had to

What's different now?:

-the majority of the people I know who got Canadian passports eventually moved back
-naturally there a lot of new buildings (same goes for pretty much every city in the world)
-LKF has gotten bigger (not in the literal sense; it's just revelers venture a bit further away from it these days)
-Beijing is playing a larger and larger part in the show
*while I feel bad that they killed your government, were things really any better back then? (HK "democracy" helped elevate the tycoons -- who control 90% of your stock market -- to their present levels)
*using $28 billion to build the airport prior to the handover was an ingenious move, by the way (that's money that would have found its way to Beijing, had it not been spent, and the project made HK a nicer city)

Response to the bolded:

1. Although Star Ferry remains, its in a new pier and the harbor, by size continues to get smaller with all the reclamations.

2. Wanchai has far less of a sleazy feeling/reputation than it did as recently as 3-4 years ago and eve then it had been on the wane (I've been living here for almost 5 years). While Lockhart Road doesn't look to change, this place is getting (ugh) gentrified, which means prices are skyrocketing for housing and other goods. Where there used to be a Fortress (electronics store) or a Fat Burger, there are now AMG and Mini dealerships, respectively, where there used to be a Fat Angelo's (cheap Italian chain) there is now a Rolls Royce dealership. New buildings such as J Residence, Zenith (yes both are 07-ish) Queens Cube and the new approval of say Hopewell Center II as well as Star Street have seen an influx of folks who might typically live/go to in midlevels/Central to Wanchai and has changed the dynamic incredibly in a short time.

3. That's still true but more are branching out to live in other places in HK though most still (regrettably) stick to central.

4. Actually most of HK market cap is in SOEs, so its more Beijing controlled, and that's not including red chips that are privately owned... Property on the other hand... My question is, was it "democracy" or the British Colonial Gov't that let some locals beat them at the getting rich game? It's just a question - I have no desire to start an OMNI-esque political discussion here.

Santander - I would feel its not just the poor in HK that feel this way but many in the middle class...

Santander - I would feel its not just the poor in HK that feel this way but many in the middle class...
Oh, I totally agree with that. I just meant that the poor in HK are hardly better off than the poor in big Chinese cities because of unaffordable housing. Regarding the HK Canadians, I've been to school with and worked with many of them over the years and that is one of the reasons many of them would never consider moving back to HK. They said they don't want to go back to the overcrowding and high housing costs... even the ones who live in Vancouver which was recently rated the most expensive city in North America. (Yes, they complained about the increase of Mainlanders in HK too but I highly doubt that is what's keeping them from moving back)

I'm totally with you guys on the housing thing; decent apartments near central are now fetching 50k/month, and mid levels is 25k/month. In the case of New York, pretty much anyone can move to Brooklyn, spend two months to find a job, and get by okay; Beijing and Shanghai are even easier (i.e. there are dirt cheap apartments in both cities). But, unless you have a job offer in hand from a top investment bank, consultancy, of law firm, moving to HK is hard to justify.

In response to Jamaldo's post, I maintain my position that Wanch remains sleazy, and you can also find cheap pizza there (I can't recall the name of the place, but it's a few blocks north of Lockhart... big slice plus a draft beer for $50).

Wan Chai is such a big area, and the sleazy part is just two blocks of Lockhart Rd. In fact, Wan Chai residents have the highest mean income among the 18 districts of HK.

In response to Jamaldo's post, I maintain my position that Wanch remains sleazy, and you can also find cheap pizza there (I can't recall the name of the place, but it's a few blocks north of Lockhart... big slice plus a draft beer for $50).
The pizza might be cheap, but the friendly women sure aren't. :D

Well, for the locals, the main difference now and about 17-18 years ago are affordibility of housing - which directly links of standard of living, as housing costs is the biggest portion of money spent for most workers.

The run up of housing prices didn't start exactly on July 1, 1997; but many doubted that the Brits will let it rise to current levels if there were no handover. And recent hikes are directly linked to hot money from China, speculating in HK real estates.

That is a main reason for the "unhappiness" of many working class people in HK. Those that are renting, or paying mortgage on the one apartments they're living in. And there's a huge divide between them and those who have extra apartments as investments - and enjoying the rise in property prices.

[Having said that, there are still fairly affordable housing somewhere. I am typing from my very comfortable "village home" in the N.T., 700sq ft with 700sq ftof roof top, and cost about the same as a 300sq ft apartment on HK Island. As long as I don't mind the commute (about 50 minutes by public transportation to Central) and don't have kids attending schools in the city.]

Didn't the housing bubble burst recently? I remember my friends saying that they will wait until it dropped further before buying property.

Housing in HK is always bad, but you are in a very bad position if your parents are middle class and forget to put you on council house queue when you turn 18. My bro's friend's parents are smart - they put him on a queue for council houses when he turns 18, he had no income back then so he got his council house quickly. Then he took over the council house, and then use the green form to buy house ownership scheme flat - fast and cheap.

Now he is less than 30 and have a property and my bro was very :mad: towards my parents :D

Another big change after the handover is HK people attitude towards children.

Now HK people treat their kids like princesses and princes. They over-protect them too much and pay tons of money for extra tuitions and all kind of extra sports, music, art etc. Of course they also send their kids abroad to attend some courses for a month.

The 'maid' concept is so common that so many people are depending on their maids. Also the post natal care too - why does a woman need so many people (their parents, some special post-natal care and a maid)around her to take care of her and her baby right after giving birth?

Not sure those HK people cook, wash up, do laundry - if kids grow up not seeing their parents doing these things, how could they learn to do it themselves?

Didn't the housing bubble burst recently? I remember my friends saying that they will wait until it dropped further before buying property.

Yes, HK housing is far better than it was several years ago. I wouldn't be so sure about it going down even further but I don't think anyone will argue it's still far from affordable. Plus HOS flats are a bit... you know, not so nice. I guess in a crowded place like HK having any place to call your own is a good thing though.
Not sure those HK people cook, wash up, do laundry - if kids grow up not seeing their parents doing these things, how could they learn to do it themselves?
Small living spaces, cheap/good food everywhere, busy lifestyles and the maid culture has all contributed to this. My HK Canadian friend once told me before I moved to HK not to marry a HK girl, because they "definitely can't cook". After visiting some peoples' flats and seeing nothing but instant food, drinks, etc. in their fridge I think her point was proven. :D To be honest my fridge isn't much better, it's just so convenient to eat out.

The housing market cooled, but no bursting of the bubble. Especially for the high-end or prime location stuff.

As for princess syndrome and maids bringing up all the kids, those have been incubating for a long time here. Not recent phenomenons and not due to the handover. Same thing for the "left over women" or "Hong Kong women" phenomenon.

Same thing for the "left over women" or "Hong Kong women" phenomenon.
LOL that is a pretty sensitive subject for many people.

LOL that is a pretty sensitive subject for many people.

Yes, we already had a long discussion in the "speed dating flight attendants" thread. I won't say more here.

Yes, we already had a long discussion in the "speed dating flight attendants" thread. I won't say more here.

"Left over women", "Hong Kong women", and "speed dating flight attendants"? Please redirect me to this thread

"Left over women", "Hong Kong women", and "speed dating flight attendants"? Please redirect me to this thread
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hong-kong-macau/1345065-speed-dating-flight-attendants.html

Now HK people treat their kids like princesses and princes. They over-protect them too much and pay tons of money for extra tuitions and all kind of extra sports, music, art etc. Of course they also send their kids abroad to attend some courses for a month.

This is definitely not limited to HKG. Google "helicopter parents" and you'll see this phenomenon is world-wide. Baby-boom parents coddling their kids...

I'm totally with you guys on the housing thing; decent apartments near central are now fetching 50k/month, and mid levels is 25k/month. In the case of New York, pretty much anyone can move to Brooklyn, spend two months to find a job, and get by okay; Beijing and Shanghai are even easier (i.e. there are dirt cheap apartments in both cities). But, unless you have a job offer in hand from a top investment bank, consultancy, of law firm, moving to HK is hard to justify.

In response to Jamaldo's post, I maintain my position that Wanch remains sleazy, and you can also find cheap pizza there (I can't recall the name of the place, but it's a few blocks north of Lockhart... big slice plus a draft beer for $50).

Paisano's

"Wanchai" being sleazy is so 10-20 years ago...

As someone who was born and brought up in Hong Kong and lived and worked here for a considerable period of time, and whose parents emigrated here over 50 years ago - i can wholeheartedly attest to Hong Kong not being the place it once was due to several factors.

I'm in the unique position where although i consider myself absolutely an HK'er (my passport does indeed say so!) - everyone else still thinks i'm an "expat" = thus i get to see things from 2 lenses.

Without a doubt the environment and education policies of the HK government are at best shortsighted.

For my two kids to get a decent education in English, I have to shell out well over US$2k a month for ESF and this is subsidized. There is talk of them removing the subsidy - well what happens to us HK'ers who require an English-medium education? Do we go to the government stream and in effect get taught in english by teachers who's language capability is worse than a 5 year olds (im not kidding!) or do we have to shell out for a HK$500k debenture for one of the real private schools?

In regards to the environment, whilst we are the bog of Guangdong, there are actionable steps that the government could be doing to help offset some of the pollution e.g. promote the use of electric vehicles (e.g. mandate that all public transportation vehicles move to electric/hybrid by say 2018), rather than give out electric subsidies to households which encourages them to spend more, how about giving them credits for actually reducing consumption etc....

In regards to civics, whilst i admire that people are now beginning to "fight for their rights" i believe that they are heading towards the edge of lunacy...take for example the protests against D&G! I mean seriously! The other day on the news was another classic in regards to the illegal structures debacle facing the incoming C.E. - a lady in the democratic party, quite senior (forget her name) was quoted as saying that the party would give President Hu a letter addressing the concerns of the HK people and she specifically mentioned that they will highlight the illegal structures issue - seriously! Does the President of China really care about CY's illegal structures? These are the political issues of the day!

With regards to Mainlander's, of course it's a double edged sword. As a property owner, i'm thankful that they have singlehandedly driven up the price of my property by 100% in just over 6 years but at the same time, i feel for my friend and his wife who probably earn a combine HK$800k/annum and because of the expenses of child rearing in Hong Kong will never be able to afford an apartment that they ACTUALLY WANT TO LIVE IN! In addition, i'm pretty tired of having Mainland Chinese kids pee and poo at will on public transportation or on sidewalks/dustbins. When i say kids, i can understand if it's a 2-3 year old who is potty training and has an accident, but these are kids who are 5-6+ > simply no reason for that to happen.

Yes, if it weren't for the Mainland Chinese, HK's economy on all fronts would be in dire straights - their influence in the property and stock markets here is considerable, and without them, we would be tits up.

Do I long for the days of colonial HK....you bet! After over 8 decades of our family being based in Hong Kong, we are thinking about emigrating as I don't believe HK can provide the quality of life for my kids that we once enjoyed.

In the case of New York, pretty much anyone can move to Brooklyn, spend two months to find a job, and get by okay;

I dunno which POV is right, just finished reading this - seems pretty miserable http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-10/low-paid-grads-on-tight-budgets-switching-to-discounters.html

As someone who was born and brought up in Hong Kong and lived and worked here for a considerable period of time, and whose parents emigrated here over 50 years ago - i can wholeheartedly attest to Hong Kong not being the place it once was due to several factors.

...

For my two kids to get a decent education in English, I have to shell out well over US$2k a month for ESF and this is subsidized. There is talk of them removing the subsidy - well what happens to us HK'ers who require an English-medium education? Do we go to the government stream and in effect get taught in english by teachers who's language capability is worse than a 5 year olds (im not kidding!) or do we have to shell out for a HK$500k debenture for one of the real private schools?

...

With regards to Mainlander's, of course it's a double edged sword. As a property owner, i'm thankful that they have singlehandedly driven up the price of my property by 100% in just over 6 years but at the same time, i feel for my friend and his wife who probably earn a combine HK$800k/annum and because of the expenses of child rearing in Hong Kong will never be able to afford an apartment that they ACTUALLY WANT TO LIVE IN! In addition, i'm pretty tired of having Mainland Chinese kids pee and poo at will on public transportation or on sidewalks/dustbins. When i say kids, i can understand if it's a 2-3 year old who is potty training and has an accident, but these are kids who are 5-6+ > simply no reason for that to happen.

...

My observations on two of your points:

The quality of English communications has deteriorated that it has created a glass ceiling for career opportunities. Major intl firm are giving big bonus and incentive for overseas born/educated Chinese who can converse in Putonghua within their organization to relocate as opposed to promoting within the HK staff. HK is heading down a slippery slope of lack of quality and affordable English skills training. How competitive on the intl business world would this quality of workforce be?
As someone with extensive business ties to the Philippines, HK is heading the same direction. After the people's revolution and Pinoy pride in 1985, the quality of English skills with the younger generation with general public education has deteriorated to such a level where it is hurting PH on the intl front. A large population under 40 does not have basic communication skills in English.

HKers need to decide whether the social and cultural cost of the prosperity form Mainland wealth is worth it.

My observations on two of your points:

The quality of English communications has deteriorated that it has created a glass ceiling for career opportunities. Major intl firm are giving big bonus and incentive for overseas born/educated Chinese who can converse in Putonghua within their organization to relocate as opposed to promoting within the HK staff. HK is heading down a slippery slope of lack of quality and affordable English skills training. How competitive on the intl business world would this quality of workforce be?
As someone with extensive business ties to the Philippines, HK is heading the same direction. After the people's revolution and Pinoy pride in 1985, the quality of English skills with the younger generation with general public education has deteriorated to such a level where it is hurting PH on the intl front. A large population under 40 does not have basic communication skills in English.

HKers need to decide whether the social and cultural cost of the prosperity form Mainland wealth is worth it.

I agree, however, the quality of English for some returnees is incredible poor as well! I see it all the time, people who apply for junior management positions with well written CV's, attending university in the UK, Aus or Canada and when they come in for an interview, they aren't able to hold a business level conversation in English without lots of "umm's" "la's" or "ah's"!!! I'm not talking about the ABC,BBC,CBC's who pretty much grew up outside HK and have picked up their adopted countries accents and communication styles, i'm talking about the guys that graduate high school here and go off to Uni - how the hell do they manage to get through university (dissertations, debates, etc) with the communication skills that they have?! It's astounding!

For some reason, im finding my Mainland Chinese staff are starting to be able to communicate much better than before in Chinese - and if that observation is valid, then what hope do HK'ers have against the Mainland Chinese in all areas of life?

In the past, we were prosperous, and had a strong identity/culture - but it seems that now the HK Chinese have their tails between their legs and are quite unsure about where and how they fit into the grand scheme of things (china). And this sadly is playing out in local politics which has degenerated to the point where i'm sure we'll be seeing fist fights a-la-Taiwan very soon and where the issues are so irrelevant to the average HK'er that it's almost shameful that (some) of these people were chosen to represent us.

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"how the hell do they manage to get through university (dissertations, debates, etc) with the communication skills that they have?!"

That I know - soft marking applies to international students' communication assessments. While their papers will not be soft marked (as they may be peer reviewed), I've never seen my uni tutors get peer assessed in tutes

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"how the hell do they manage to get through university (dissertations, debates, etc) with the communication skills that they have?!"

That I know - soft marking applies to international students' communication assessments. While their papers will not be soft marked (as they may be peer reviewed), I've never seen my uni tutors get peer assessed in tutorials.

The English standard of international students is atrocious - not just HK students, but Korean and Chinese students as well. I've been a supplementary tutor at uni and I really struggle to get my teaching points across to international students (no such problems with local students). I couldn't imagine them obtaining degrees unless they can do so with a communications score of 0.

The same thing on the receiving end - I supervised new grads at (former) work and the PRC grads who have received degrees abroad can hardly manage a short phone call in English.


"For some reason, im finding my Mainland Chinese staff are starting to be able to communicate much better than before in Chinese - and if that observation is valid, then what hope do HK'ers have against the Mainland Chinese in all areas of life? "

You mean in Mandarin? Maybe your Mandarin ability is improving?

As someone who was born and brought up in Hong Kong and lived and worked here for a considerable period of time, and whose parents emigrated here over 50 years ago - i can wholeheartedly attest to Hong Kong not being the place it once was due to several factors.

I'm in the unique position where although i consider myself absolutely an HK'er (my passport does indeed say so!) - everyone else still thinks i'm an "expat" = thus i get to see things from 2 lenses.

Without a doubt the environment and education policies of the HK government are at best shortsighted.

For my two kids to get a decent education in English, I have to shell out well over US$2k a month for ESF and this is subsidized. There is talk of them removing the subsidy - well what happens to us HK'ers who require an English-medium education? Do we go to the government stream and in effect get taught in english by teachers who's language capability is worse than a 5 year olds (im not kidding!) or do we have to shell out for a HK$500k debenture for one of the real private schools?

In regards to the environment, whilst we are the bog of Guangdong, there are actionable steps that the government could be doing to help offset some of the pollution e.g. promote the use of electric vehicles (e.g. mandate that all public transportation vehicles move to electric/hybrid by say 2018), rather than give out electric subsidies to households which encourages them to spend more, how about giving them credits for actually reducing consumption etc....

In regards to civics, whilst i admire that people are now beginning to "fight for their rights" i believe that they are heading towards the edge of lunacy...take for example the protests against D&G! I mean seriously! The other day on the news was another classic in regards to the illegal structures debacle facing the incoming C.E. - a lady in the democratic party, quite senior (forget her name) was quoted as saying that the party would give President Hu a letter addressing the concerns of the HK people and she specifically mentioned that they will highlight the illegal structures issue - seriously! Does the President of China really care about CY's illegal structures? These are the political issues of the day!

With regards to Mainlander's, of course it's a double edged sword. As a property owner, i'm thankful that they have singlehandedly driven up the price of my property by 100% in just over 6 years but at the same time, i feel for my friend and his wife who probably earn a combine HK$800k/annum and because of the expenses of child rearing in Hong Kong will never be able to afford an apartment that they ACTUALLY WANT TO LIVE IN! In addition, i'm pretty tired of having Mainland Chinese kids pee and poo at will on public transportation or on sidewalks/dustbins. When i say kids, i can understand if it's a 2-3 year old who is potty training and has an accident, but these are kids who are 5-6+ > simply no reason for that to happen.

Yes, if it weren't for the Mainland Chinese, HK's economy on all fronts would be in dire straights - their influence in the property and stock markets here is considerable, and without them, we would be tits up.

Do I long for the days of colonial HK....you bet! After over 8 decades of our family being based in Hong Kong, we are thinking about emigrating as I don't believe HK can provide the quality of life for my kids that we once enjoyed.

1 and 2. As are in many places. I agree here, but what to do? Some say promote three languages, which many higher up in education say doesn't work. Then what? Eliminate Cantonese and their entire culture? English and HK isn't international anymore..Mandarin and that means they can't do business with the mainland which is crucial... Environment is tough. Politically - remember they wanted to make the buses Euro IV standard and ban cabs from idling and everyone got in a fit? How about recycling? There is nothing in that space. How about shipping regulations and how ships can pollute like twice as much as they can in the mainland in order to keep some of HK's status as a port? That being said, a strong share of the pollution does come from across the border (about 1/2 from what I hear) and that is out of HK's control.

3. I would not just blame mainlanders for this. I would blame tycoons, society's admiration of them, and the government that is cozy with them. Let's face it most tycoons were and are property speculators and get sweet deals from the government and this was just as true in colonial days.

4. I actually have not seen this but have heard it. More actual enforcement would help.

5. Not necessarily. The way the economy has been and structured has most certainly allowed it to be so. Most of the Hang Seng's market cap is due to mainland companies, such as SOEs, which is true. However the property markets? I am not so sure. Without this huge influx of money from the other side of the border, perhaps the RE market would be more "rational" and healthier for all. Which would perhaps encourage more local discretionary spending and what not. I just don't know.

I am in general not in favor of colonialism. I see the ugly sides of it and its legacy. Spoiled expats who still think they are the top of everything, treating locals poorly, speaking down to them, or thinking anything local/Chinese as second rate etc. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes not, but its easy enough to tell... I have definitely seen local folks either be embarrassed or even scared to approach many foreigners or timid to act, something that may be ingrained as part of the legacy (I know I see this in India where my family is from, at times). It's quite damaging.

Perhaps HK's time as a world city has come to an end and it will just be a regional center for trade/finance with laws and regulations one figures will respected (unlike across the border for the time being - this is a big deal) and for many which is a comfortable place to live with a lot of institutions in place.

There is still a vibrancy and sense of quickly being able to adjust to things, which I think this city has done through its history. I feel that I've seen more of a sense of local identity out in the open whether its politically, socially, through the arts and an increasing underground scene (much of which many, like myself have no insight into since we don't speak Cantonese) in my near 5 years here.

Quite a ramble - I know there was more I wanted to say, but I forget. It's getting late! Cheers

slickalick & percysmith:

This problem is self inflicted:

Kids get sent overseas to obtain a higher education from SE Asian countries to US, UK and Canada stay within their own ghetto and hang out in the ghetto. So aside from classroom time there is usually no English communication skills used. Sometimes there are so many of them in some classes that they don't even need to use English.

I find communication skill level very low not just in English conversation but also in public speaking.

The language skill needs to be learn at an earlier age not when they are late teens. Having Filippina maids doesn't count as formal English training.

The prime candidates getting the prime careers are immersed in English communication skills from a young age benefited by being born or immigrated to US, UK and Canada early in their childhood.

Having Filippina maids doesn't count as formal English training.

No kidding. My brother's kids, when they were young, were developping a Filipino-accented English. Luckily, they're over that now.

I think the extent of HK's poor English-speaking population is masked largely by the airport workers and CX employees who pretty much all speak English and the "golden generation" of returnees from Canada and Australia. Most of the local university graduates should theoretically be fluent in English but as many have said before, even many students who studied in English abroad cannot really be described as fluent either. In my old office the only HK people I regularly worked with who spoke great English was my friend who went to secondary school/university in Australia and some guy who spoke shockingly fluent English (with a very posh RP accent too) considering he hadn't ever lived outside of HK. Maybe he watched the BBC too much or something, but he's certainly the exception to the rule.

The problem isn't a two-language or three-language system. Anyone should be able to choose for themselves which "side" they want to take, whether it's English or Mandarin or maybe even both. The real problem is that there needs to be the correct public infrastructure to facilitate English learning. If English education continues to be neglected as it currently is, then English's official status in HK will become a sham like Portuguese in Macau has become. The funny thing is I think most of Asia still envies HKers for their perceived superior English speaking ability.

There is a joke that if you think HKers English is bad, then just go visit Japan...

But on a serious note, HK's English standard is being stabilized right now by (1) those returning from overseas after emigrating, (2) those being sent overseas to boarding schools in the US, UK and AU, (3) local kids who are being sent to International Schools, and (4) the very small elite minority of "local school kids" who are hardworking and have a decent grasp of English.

In terms of everyone else, aka "average" students at local schools, how can they have great English? It is a Cantonese-speaking territory, I don't blame them. Those motivated will learn well. Of course, someone needs to take a look at it seriously, but there are so many issues right now...

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I wonder has improvements in technology have anything to do with it? In the past, there wasn't that much technology adapted for handling Chinese characters. Now we have unicode

There is a joke that if you think HKers English is bad, then just go visit Japan...

But on a serious note, HK's English standard is being stabilized right now by (1) those returning from overseas after emigrating, (2) those being sent overseas to boarding schools in the US, UK and AU, (3) local kids who are being sent to International Schools, and (4) the very small elite minority of "local school kids" who are hardworking and have a decent grasp of English.

In terms of everyone else, aka "average" students at local schools, how can they have great English? It is a Cantonese-speaking territory, I don't blame them. Those motivated will learn well. Of course, someone needs to take a look at it seriously, but there are so many issues right now...

I think the extent of HK's poor English-speaking population is masked largely by the airport workers and CX employees who pretty much all speak English and the "golden generation" of returnees from Canada and Australia.

My responses to the bolded

1. I don't know if I believe this. I think the number of people you're referencing here is very very small on an absolute basis of population percentage.

2. I cannot agree more. We are in HK. Cantonese is the native language here. And it's a part of local identity.

3. No I disagree. It's masked because most visitors and many expats stick to certain parts of HK (TST, Central, Admiralty and Wanchai, maybe Happy Valley) and define that as essentially the be-all of HK (tourists get a pass in my book). Once you go out of these places, the amount of English spoken declines at an incredible rate and and you don't see 7-11s or other shops selling many English language publications. What we have to realize is that for the vast majority of people HK does not consist of these areas.

Anecdotally, I put my mom up in Causeway Bay a few years ago at Shama when she came to visit for 10ish days. And this is only one stop from Wanchai. I wanted her to see a bit more of a local atmosphere but keep her close to where I live and work. She, like many others thought that HK was a place where everyone spoke English, since she had pretty much stuck to the typical tourist route. She noted in some surprise after her first day that "wow, not many people speak English here, or its poorly spoken!" Heh.

But on a serious note, HK's English standard is being stabilized right now by (1) those returning from overseas after emigrating
Almost all the emigrants who wanted to return have now returned. The majority of the kids born in Canada/Australia feel more comfortable in Western countries than HK and are less likely to move back than the first-generation who emigrated in the 80s and 90s. This population will not grow further, it will only gradually shrink.

We all know that HK is first and foremost a Cantonese speaking "country" but it's actually unfair to the HK middle class kids to put them at a disadvantage with such poor English education infrastructure. I know some people may disagree but imo English knowledge is still immensely useful in HK (more so than Mandarin) and will open career and educational opportunities for any motivated local youngster. It's not right that only the elite who can afford independent school or that the middle-class have to pay (a lot) extra to send their kids to ESF schools.

Public speaking? In English?

How about just plain speaking in any language? I teach local kids music and English, and so many of them cannot talk coherently even in Cantonese; always with all the "er", "ar", in a miniscule volume. The education system here doesn't really encourage speech or even asking questions.

Then many have no siblings at home, with only maids/grandparents with them at home most of the time, since parents work late. No need or reason to talk to them. Then while in the past they would chat on the phone with friends, now they just SMS or Whatsapp. Guys would just play online games, again without actually talking or speaking.

As for English level, it's really pretty bad, especially when you exclude the elite schools in HK. Many of my students live in Yuen Long, Tuen Mun, etc and go to less-than-stellar schools there, and the English level is atrocious. They're unable to give simple directions to a tourist if asked, or to even just understand the inquiry.

The difference now and then is that before, parents, schools and kids all feel they need to improve on their English to get a semi-decent job. Now, they don't feel that way, so why spend all the effort? In the types of schools I mentioned above, plenty of students graduate from secondary school (highschool) without ever passing English once during their 6 years there.

Public speaking? In English?

How about just plain speaking in any language? I teach local kids music and English, and so many of them cannot talk coherently even in Cantonese; always with all the "er", "ar", in a miniscule volume. The education system here doesn't really encourage speech or even asking questions.

Even now? I thought they have made the system more 'active'. I remembered that I was almost all teachers' common enemy because I asked too many questions in class. I think a lot of students see the English language is something they need to 'hang on', or 'give up', or to try to get a 'high' grade - so they played along with the exam rules. I think they lack the interest of learning new languages.

I think this lack of interest is not just HK, but for a lot of places - now all disney movies are synchronised to various language. Windows software is basically localised as well. It happens here in Scandinavia as well - even though they can still trick people that they speak good English.

Then many have no siblings at home, with only maids/grandparents with them at home most of the time, since parents work late. No need or reason to talk to them. Then while in the past they would chat on the phone with friends, now they just SMS or Whatsapp. Guys would just play online games, again without actually talking or speaking.

As for English level, it's really pretty bad, especially when you exclude the elite schools in HK. Many of my students live in Yuen Long, Tuen Mun, etc and go to less-than-stellar schools there, and the English level is atrocious. They're unable to give simple directions to a tourist if asked, or to even just understand the inquiry.

The difference now and then is that before, parents, schools and kids all feel they need to improve on their English to get a semi-decent job. Now, they don't feel that way, so why spend all the effort? In the types of schools I mentioned above, plenty of students graduate from secondary school (highschool) without ever passing English once during their 6 years there.

It has always been a problem when for HK people to write properly. The main reason is that Cantonese is not a written language, it's a dialect. When I was growing up in HK, it really helped that I speak Mandarin (my mum is from Taiwan) at an early age so that when I was doing composition in Chinese, I wrote it as if I'm speaking Mandarin. I avoided tons of mistakes that my classmates made.

Can you really let someone graduate without having passed the core subject exams? I remembered in my school I got my HKCEE, my cert wasn't a grad cert, but a cert that certified I finished the F5 class in that school because I failed maths at my school exams.

I think it's very difficult for children to learn a language without being in the environment that the language they are learning is dominant. In the colonial time, the Brits forced us to learn English. Now? It's more important for a sales lady to speak Mandarin than English (not that they don't require that).

Regarding the studying abroad kids not speaking English. I think it's their parents' fault - why on earth should they be picking a ghetto school abroad? My University had less than 10 HK students in total, and at the same time 25% of all students are non-British (exchange students from all over the world) - I chose that University myself because my aim was to stay away HK as much as possible - I saw that as an once in a life time experience, and I ended up married to a Dane I met there and not returning to HK:D

It has always been a problem when for HK people to write properly. The main reason is that Cantonese is not a written language, it's a dialect.

Cantonese is not a dialect - Cantonese used to be the official language in China, although it was for a short time and most people try to ignore this fact!

Cantonese is not a dialect - Cantonese used to be the official language in China, although it was for a short time and most people try to ignore this fact!

Almost a hundred million people speak it worldwide.

Many "old" Chinese characters are actually still spoken words in Cantonese.

Always remember, Hong Kong never went through the cultural revolution, and it's Chinese immigrants brought the tradition and character of the real China, not the Mainland type we see now.

*Slips into anti-flame suit*

Cantonese is not a dialect - Cantonese used to be the official language in China, although it was for a short time and most people try to ignore this fact!

During the Warlord era?

Thank goodness the Nationalists revolutionaries decided they'd had a better time unifying the country if Mandarin was the official language - Cantonese is many times more difficult than Mandarin to learn if you didn't speak it from birth.

In fact IMHO I wish Cantonese never existed.

In fact IMHO I wish Cantonese never existed.

You and the Commies up north! ;);)

Here's a REAL educational problem in Hong Kong:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/11/us-hongkong-patriotism-idUSBRE86A09L20120711

Almost a billion people speak it worldwide.

Any source? It's hard to believe that 1 billion people are Cantonese speakers.

I had a classmate who is from Nanning and I can't understand her Cantonese.

Any source? It's hard to believe that 1 billion people are Cantonese speakers.

I had a classmate who is from Nanning and I can't understand her Cantonese.

Correction - 100 million :p. I got "一億" confused with "1 billion"... amateur mistake, amateur mistake! HKIS education at its finest here.

Here's a REAL educational problem in Hong Kong:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/11/us-hongkong-patriotism-idUSBRE86A09L20120711

This really freaks me out - HK is more and more 'red'.

HKIS? Do you mean the school HK Intl School?

This really freaks me out - HK is more and more 'red'.

I don't see what's wrong in teaching our next generation how our country (and our SAR) is run. There's quite a lot of ignorance here.

However I do resent the "establishment" brown-nosing in every opportunity such as this. Don't get me started on functional constituencies...

We all know that HK is first and foremost a Cantonese speaking "country" but it's actually unfair to the HK middle class kids to put them at a disadvantage with such poor English education infrastructure. I know some people may disagree but imo English knowledge is still immensely useful in HK (more so than Mandarin) and will open career and educational opportunities for any motivated local youngster. It's not right that only the elite who can afford independent school or that the middle-class have to pay (a lot) extra to send their kids to ESF schools.

I don't think it is really an education issue. I don't know whether this is supported by objective data but at least anecdotally there are more expats involved in local education, esp at the tertiary level.

I think there's been a cultural shift, not related with the handover or government. 20 years ago, we only had 4 TV channels and next to the canto series at 9:30 on weekdays, the Pearl 9:30PM movie was the next best thing to look forward too. Nowadays, who watches it (even if it is still available)?

US/UK TV series are still available, but they are competing with Korean TV series (aaarrrrrgggghhh) as well as the local ones - all either dubbed or subtitled back into Cantonese.

Western culture has lost its popularity here...

I don't see what's wrong in teaching our next generation how our country (and our SAR) is run. There's quite a lot of ignorance here.

However I do resent the "establishment" brown-nosing in every opportunity such as this. Don't get me started on functional constituencies...

I think it's nice for them to teach the young ones about HKSAR - we used to learn it in EPA classes. However I think it should be taught with facts but not feelings.

To me SAR is a 'puppet government' - everything you do you have to ask your big brother. You might as well learn how China is run since HK will eventually be run under the same rules as e.g. Shanghai

Mr. Nacho does complain about not having enough good English programmes/movies on HK TV. He sometimes has to watch old Cantonese movies with me, and the subtitle was so horrible that he couldn't understand what it's about.

.

Hmm...it does sound like a English version of HKGolden now...:D:D:D

Let's be honest - things change.

Without going into politics here, I think one of the major issue here - Hong Kong does not have a good focus on tourism anymore.

Nowadays, service personnel are taught to please the Mainlanders. Nothing's wrong. But somehow Hong Kong fails to promote itself to the world.

Where is the shopping heaven now? LV? Gucci? D&G?

I used to see HKTB going overseas to promote Hong Kong. And they are no longer to be seen.

I think that is one of the major changes that FTers concern.

No point promoting tourism when hotels are so full and rates so high. Westerners would be foolish to choose HK over Thailand for a cheap and fun vacation; and if they want to see China, they can go to China. If they just want to buy LV and Gucci, they can just head to Paris or Milan. Hong Kong hasn't been the shopping paradise for at least two decades for westerners or Japanese.

No point promoting tourism when hotels are so full and rates so high. Westerners would be foolish to choose HK over Thailand for a cheap and fun vacation; and if they want to see China, they can go to China. If they just want to buy LV and Gucci, they can just head to Paris or Milan. Hong Kong hasn't been the shopping paradise for at least two decades for westerners or Japanese.

Agree 100%. IIRC, the last time that HK got serious about promoting itself was during the SARS era (2003). When the hotels needed help, the government stepped up to the plate, and I am confident they will do the same thing during the next economic downturn.

No point promoting tourism when hotels are so full and rates so high. Westerners would be foolish to choose HK over Thailand for a cheap and fun vacation; and if they want to see China, they can go to China. If they just want to buy LV and Gucci, they can just head to Paris or Milan. Hong Kong hasn't been the shopping paradise for at least two decades for westerners or Japanese.

High hotel occupancy is partially due to conferences/conventions that are held in HK. It's good for HK as a trade centre.

Not all Westerners run to Thailand - especially if you are going for 'big city' vacation. HK is by far safer than any of the SE Asia countries except Singapore. Singapore is a lot more expensive to shop than HK.

HK is attractive so some Westerners (especially those who are not living in big cities), a lot of Europeans see HK is like Japan, both small places with people everywhere and skyscrapers everywhere. They know that HK is safe and civilised - you don't have to bribe the police or worried about get food poisoning after eating in a restaurant.

It's cheaper for us who live in Europe to shop in HK than the US. We buy computer, camera, memory card, and clothes from HK.

The price of clothes here in Europe is about 5x HK price - and quality is not nearly as good. We are family of 5, so you can imagine the savings.

Every year we go to HK we had like 2 big 'red white blue' of clothes to check in.

I think HK is still a very attractive place especially for stop over - it's enough to spend a couple of days here to shop and eat.

It's cheaper for us who live in Europe to shop in HK than the US. We buy computer, camera, memory card, and clothes from HK.

The price of clothes here in Europe is about 5x HK price - and quality is not nearly as good. We are family of 5, so you can imagine the savings.

More mates have come over from Aus in the last three months than I really care to entertain. Some of them I ignore totally. I think it's a mixture of strong A$ plus Qantas filling its HKG-SYD whale with cheap fares that keeps them coming.

For those I do entertain, the retail experience is less than satisfactory. HK electronics aren't really cheaper than Australia now (and comes with no warranty for Aus). It's harder to get an iPhone here than down under (probably attributed to Mainland demand). None of them have kids yet - probably it's cheaper to get kids stuff (sans milk powder) over here than there. The only things they really buy are tailored shirts.

Although I struggle to pull off a boys night in HKG, HKG is ideally positioned for various boys trips across the Taiwanese straits, up north or across the Pearl River.

More mates have come over from Aus in the last three months than I really care to entertain. Some of them I ignore totally. I think it's a mixture of strong A$ plus Qantas filling its HKG-SYD whale with cheap fares that keeps them coming.

For those I do entertain, the retail experience is less than satisfactory. HK electronics aren't really cheaper than Australia now (and comes with no warranty for Aus). It's harder to get an iPhone here than down under (probably attributed to Mainland demand). None of them have kids yet - probably it's cheaper to get kids stuff (sans milk powder) over here than there. The only things they really buy are tailored shirts.

Although I struggle to pull off a boys night in HKG, HKG is ideally positioned for various boys trips across the Taiwanese straits, up north or across the Pearl River.

One of my side projects consists of helping a big buyer in Canada source cheap electronics from Shenzhen, which we drop ship to end users via HK Post or Sing Post. Since his volumes are so high, he gets really good pricing, but for most products that cost more than $50, Amazon.com is honestly a better option for him. In fact, when I showed our Shenzhen factories Amazon.com a few months back, they were all simply blown away. Lest you're curious, he basically gives away the stuff he buys on Amazon, and makes his real money on the Shenzhen stuff, most of which is crap. I don't think this game is going to last for much longer (strong RMB plus wage increases in China), but we'll continue to milk it while it lasts.

It's cheaper for us who live in Europe to shop in HK than the US. We buy computer, camera, memory card, and clothes from HK.

The price of clothes here in Europe is about 5x HK price - and quality is not nearly as good. We are family of 5, so you can imagine the savings.

Every year we go to HK we had like 2 big 'red white blue' of clothes to check in.

Thanks to the Mainlanders. No more.

Everything is just so expensive now...

Compared to the US - prescription drugs and medical services are very very cheap. Dietary supplements and vitams are very expensive.

Cheap clothings (either no-names or cheap brands like Bossini and Giordano) are cheap to very cheap. High end fashion is not cheap. Jeans (including Levis) are very expensive. Sneakers and good shoes are not cheap.

Crappy no-name electronic and photo accessories are cheap - like no-name memory cards, cell phone skins, etc. Name-brand accessories like Sandisk memory cards are a bit more expensive than in the US. Apple products are about a wash.

Street food or hole-in-the-wall food is still cheap, though prices have been going up. Good food is not cheap. Good steak is expensive.

---

In short, most quality stuff is not cheap, especially those imported from overseas (outside China), and or brand name stuff. Local brands are still fairly cheap. The really cheap stuff are Chinese made no-name stuff.

I could never understand why mainlanders go crazy in HKG until I got paid in RMB myself ..........:p Everytime I am in HKG now it is a shopping feast. Do have to admint prices have gone up but so did the RMB conversion rate to the HKD!

I could never understand why mainlanders go crazy in HKG until I got paid in RMB myself ..........:p Everytime I am in HKG now it is a shopping feast. Do have to admint prices have gone up but so did the RMB conversion rate to the HKD!

Guess the good thing is the demand for HKD goes way up?

Regarding the studying abroad kids not speaking English. I think it's their parents' fault - why on earth should they be picking a ghetto school abroad?

The best universities in US/Canada/UK/Australia all have tons of HK students, especially in the medical/law/architecture/pharmacy/optometry/MBA.. schools. It's the "wild chicken" universities that few HKers would attend.

The best universities in US/Canada/UK/Australia all have tons of HK students, especially in the medical/law/architecture/pharmacy/optometry/MBA.. schools. It's the "wild chicken" universities that few HKers would attend.

The university I attended is not a 'wild chicken' university :mad: There are 2 departments (International Relations and Criminology) in my university was best/best in the UK (right after Oxford). I got my International Relations degree there and I think I was the only one from HK.

Just because an university that locates outside a big city (or not known by HK people) doesn't mean it's bad.

The university I attended is not a 'wild chicken' university :mad: There are 2 departments (International Relations and Criminology) in my university was best/best in the UK (right after Oxford). I got my International Relations degree there and I think I was the only one from HK.

Just because an university that locates outside a big city (or not known by HK people) doesn't mean it's bad.

People in both HK and China are overly fixated on brand names (e.g. LV, Prada, Bentley). The same goes for universities, of which they only know a handful. I happened to attend one of the few that they respect, and it was a major door opener, in spite of the fact that I'm not as smart as friends of mine that attended lesser known schools. But, the real trick to scoring a great job in HK is to be a son/daughter of a tycoon.

People in both HK and China are overly fixated on brand names (e.g. LV, Prada, Bentley). The same goes for universities, of which they only know a handful. I happened to attend one of the few that they respect, and it was a major door opener, in spite of the fact that I'm not as smart as friends of mine that attended lesser known schools. But, the real trick to scoring a great job in HK is to be a son/daughter of a tycoon.

Sons/daughters of tycoons don't need to score a job.

Sons/daughters of tycoons don't need to score a job.

I think they do. Even Raymond Kwok's son Edward Kwok got sent to SHKP's auditors Deloitte to work for three years before returning to SHKP in 2010:

http://hkm.appledaily.com/detail.php?guid=16513134&category_guid=4104&category=
http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2012/0713/LTN20120713473_C.pdf#page=2

Investment bank (his cousin Adam Kwok also did 9 months in Morgan Stanley http://news.mingpao.com/20120714/gac2.htm) and law firms "Related Party" trainees are also common.

Sons/daughters of tycoons don't need to score a job.

They don't need jobs, but since working for Goldman Sachs is better than staying at home all day, many choose this option.

They don't need jobs, but since working for Goldman Sachs is better than staying at home all day, many choose this option.

Yeah just noticed Edward's cousin Adam Kwok (who also became an SHKP alternate director yesterday) did 9 months at Morgan Stanley http://news.mingpao.com/20120714/gac2.htm

Sons/daughters of tycoons don't need to score a job.

I think they do. Even Raymond Kwok's son Edward Kwok got sent to SHKP's auditors Deloitte to work for three years before returning to SHKP in 2010:

http://hkm.appledaily.com/detail.php?guid=16513134&category_guid=4104&category=
http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2012/0713/LTN20120713473_C.pdf#page=2

Investment bank (his cousin Adam Kwok also did 9 months in Morgan Stanley http://news.mingpao.com/20120714/gac2.htm) and law firms "Related Party" trainees are also common.

They don't need jobs, but since working for Goldman Sachs is better than staying at home all day, many choose this option.

Yeah just noticed Edward's cousin Adam Kwok (who also became an SHKP alternate director yesterday) did 9 months at Morgan Stanley http://news.mingpao.com/20120714/gac2.htm

This is know in the inner circle as: "Let your children make mistakes early in their career with other people's money before joining 'the firm'." :D

I think they do. Even Raymond Kwok's son Edward Kwok got sent to SHKP's auditors Deloitte to work for three years before returning to SHKP in 2010:

http://hkm.appledaily.com/detail.php?guid=16513134&category_guid=4104&category=
http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2012/0713/LTN20120713473_C.pdf#page=2

Investment bank (his cousin Adam Kwok also did 9 months in Morgan Stanley http://news.mingpao.com/20120714/gac2.htm) and law firms "Related Party" trainees are also common.

Sounds like the junior Kwoks are about to get some real work experience, not necessarily their choice.

The best universities in US/Canada/UK/Australia all have tons of HK students, especially in the medical/law/architecture/pharmacy/optometry/MBA.. schools. It's the "wild chicken" universities that few HKers would attend.

some spoiled can graduate from a proper university and still cannot speak properly. lets say there are too many option not to speak proper english,

This is know in the inner circle as: "Let your children make mistakes early in their career with other people's money before joining 'the firm'." :D

until the dadS make THE mistake.
actually thinking about it i'm not sure if the dads worked outside

Cantonese is not a dialect - Cantonese used to be the official language in China, although it was for a short time and most people try to ignore this fact!

Almost a hundred million people speak it worldwide.

Many "old" Chinese characters are actually still spoken words in Cantonese.

Always remember, Hong Kong never went through the cultural revolution, and it's Chinese immigrants brought the tradition and character of the real China, not the Mainland type we see now.

*Slips into anti-flame suit*
thanks for bringing this up: cantonese is the language of southern china back in the days when the poets composes - poems reads more coherently in canto than mandarin. just by calling it CANTONese doesnt make it a thing just from CANTON.:)

all until the huns and manchurians arrived

Correction - 100 million :p. I got "一億" confused with "1 billion"... amateur mistake, amateur mistake! HKIS education at its finest here.
THE spoiled kids?!
class of..?

thanks for bringing this up: cantonese is the language of southern china back in the days when the poets composes - poems reads more coherently in canto than mandarin. just by calling it CANTONese doesnt make it a thing just from CANTON.:)

all until the huns and manchurians arrived
Indeed. All the sung / tong dynasty poem will be super wrong if it is potungha.

BTW as the urban myth the Cantonese lose to Potungha as modern age Chinese language by one vote

THE spoiled kids?!
class of..?

Prefer to keep my class year hidden to protect my age! ;)

Am a local, though, not one of the expat families that move away!

Prefer to keep my class year hidden to protect my age! ;)

Am a local, though, not one of the expat families that move away!

It's not a problem to disclose your age as long as you can show others that you are not one of those spoiled kids. ;)

Just because there are a lot of spoiled kids out there doesn't mean that every single kids are spoiled.

It's not a problem to disclose your age as long as you can show others that you are not one of those spoiled kids. ;)

Just because there are a lot of spoiled kids out there doesn't mean that every single kids are spoiled.

there you go :) local kids doesnt mean you cant be spoilt in any school either!
i'm in 03. i might not even know you anyway (even if you were in 03!)

there you go :) local kids doesnt mean you cant be spoilt in any school either!
i'm in 03. i might not even know you anyway (even if you were in 03!)

Too young, but I did have a sibling in class of 03.

Too young, but I did have a sibling in class of 03.

thats alright. i am not interested in remembering any of them FT unrelated:)

thats alright. i am not interested in remembering any of them FT unrelated:)

Why I am feeling too-old-already when I had my HKALE at 2002 :(

Why I am feeling too-old-already when I had my HKALE at 2002 :(

Maybe this will make you feel better: I did my HKALE in 1994 :p

What really makes you feel old? Kids :D

Why I am feeling too-old-already when I had my HKALE at 2002 :(

Maybe this will make you feel better: I did my HKALE in 1994 :p

What really makes you feel old? Kids :D

Aiiyah, not olde, I will make nacho feel better.

If I had to do HKALE it would have been its equivalent in 1976. :D

This would be a good thread to share what I found today:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=270432166392245&set=a.168210719947724.26474.163406417094821&type=1&ref=nf

Aiiyah, not olde, I will make nacho feel better.

If I had to do HKALE it would have been its equivalent in 1976. :D

This would be a good thread to share what I found today:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=270432166392245&set=a.168210719947724.26474.163406417094821&type=1&ref=nf

:D:D:D:D:D It's so HK.

Thanks for making me feel better ;)

Aiiyah, not olde, I will make nacho feel better.

If I had to do HKALE it would have been its equivalent in 1976. :D

This would be a good thread to share what I found today:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=270432166392245&set=a.168210719947724.26474.163406417094821&type=1&ref=nf

haha that was a good laugh :D

meh! kids!

HK is attractive so some Westerners (especially those who are not living in big cities), a lot of Europeans see HK is like Japan, both small places with people everywhere and skyscrapers everywhere.

They know that HK is safe and civilised - you don't have to bribe the police or worried about get food poisoning after eating in a restaurant.

I think HK is still a very attractive place especially for stop over - it's enough to spend a couple of days here to shop and eat.

These are similar to my own thoughts. I use HK as entry and exit point to and from Asia, staying a few nights at most but visiting fairly often.

I've got college classmates there as investment bankers, family friends in the restaurant business, former customers in industrial trading etc. etc.

So my visits always follow the same pattern, arrive at HKG, freshen up at the airport or environs, head into the city for lunch or dinner, business talk, friendship talk. ( lately I notice friends want to share their pride in Cantonese culture more with me )

Sometimes also head over to Shenzhen to see other friends. The 200 HKD "limo" service is unbeatable. ^

The difference in food quality and service levels is very noticeable f.ex compared to Shanghai. Then, of course, many maitres and restaurant managers at upscale places in SH are from HK...

If staying overnight, now and then a local friend calls at 2am to stay in my hotel room because they are too drunk to go home and face the wife. ;) In that case, fetch a yoghurt and some fruit for them in the morning...

A last lunch or dinner together, more talk, then head back to the MTR and the airport. Not forgetting to have a HK milk tea there.

HK still remains a sort of dream landscape for me, never really bothered to explore the city. I trust my friends to show me what they deem interesting and worthwhile.

There are times when I feel really happy just to stay a few hours in my hotel room, looking at the view of HK Island or Kowloon. Sort of caught in the moment, knowing that tomorrow I'll be in Frankfurt, London, Shanghai, Seoul...What I love best about traveling is wasting time and standing still. ;)

These are similar to my own thoughts. I use HK as entry and exit point to and from Asia, staying a few nights at most but visiting fairly often.

I've got college classmates there as investment bankers, family friends in the restaurant business, former customers in industrial trading etc. etc.

So my visits always follow the same pattern, arrive at HKG, freshen up at the airport or environs, head into the city for lunch or dinner, business talk, friendship talk. ( lately I notice friends want to share their pride in Cantonese culture more with me )

Sometimes also head over to Shenzhen to see other friends. The 200 HKD "limo" service is unbeatable. ^

The difference in food quality and service levels is very noticeable f.ex compared to Shanghai. Then, of course, many maitres and restaurant managers at upscale places in SH are from HK...

If staying overnight, now and then a local friend calls at 2am to stay in my hotel room because they are too drunk to go home and face the wife. ;) In that case, fetch a yoghurt and some fruit for them in the morning...

A last lunch or dinner together, more talk, then head back to the MTR and the airport. Not forgetting to have a HK milk tea there.

HK still remains a sort of dream landscape for me, never really bothered to explore the city. I trust my friends to show me what they deem interesting and worthwhile.

There are times when I feel really happy just to stay a few hours in my hotel room, looking at the view of HK Island or Kowloon. Sort of caught in the moment, knowing that tomorrow I'll be in Frankfurt, London, Shanghai, Seoul...What I love best about traveling is wasting time and standing still. ;)

The bolded echoes something I feel quite a bit and I'm sure many others do too, but I'd hardly call it a waste! :)

The bolded echoes something I feel quite a bit and I'm sure many others do too, but I'd hardly call it a waste! :)

"Time you enjoyed wasting was not wasted" - John Lennon ;)

The bolded echoes something I feel quite a bit and I'm sure many others do too, but I'd hardly call it a waste! :)

Depending on where to waste it - if you don't have lounge access or fast track for security - waiting at airports is PITA.

Depending on where to waste it - if you don't have lounge access or fast track for security - waiting at airports is PITA.

The HKG airport is probably one of the best airports to "waste" time in even without lounge access.

The HKG airport is probably one of the best airports to "waste" time in even without lounge access.

I think so too, except I never need to waste time there since my family lives in HK. Everytime we almost have to run to the gate :D

I have been to numerous airports and I found HKG the best - as a basic traveller without any lounge access.

I do have lounge access at HKIA but more often than not just prefer to first head to the Regal Hotel pool for a swim after a morning arrival from Europe and then to T1 landside for a hearty meal at one of the places the airport staff frequent. :)

The lounges are more convenient when departing HKG which I normally always try to schedule in the late afternoon or evening. That leaves enough time for a downtown late lunch or dinner and a fresh breeze from the Bay.

Oh, and I can't praise the newspaper agents at HKG enough. Especially when coming from Shanghai I tend to stock up heavily on my favourite magazines.

I do have lounge access at HKIA but more often than not just prefer to first head to the Regal Hotel pool for a swim after a morning arrival from Europe and then to T1 landside for a hearty meal at one of the places the airport staff frequent. :)

Not bad if you have access to the pool ^

Where are the places that airport staffs eat frequently? My sis works at HKIA and all I know are the usual usual nothing special places (Burger king, spaghetti house etc.) - any hidden gem I missed that I have to ask her about?

Thanks in advance!

Most airport staff go to T2 for lunch. In fact, it's like an employee canteen/cafeteria there during lunch hour.

I think so too, except I never need to waste time there since my family lives in HK. Everytime we almost have to run to the gate :D

I have been to numerous airports and I found HKG the best - as a basic traveller without any lounge access.

Looks like timing for HongKongers has remain the same.

Looks like timing for HongKongers has remain the same.

Not as bad as the Spaniards :D Long time ago we were late at BCN - we arrived 30 mins before the flight departs. We thought we were totally SOL but no, they were still check-in people for our flight.

Of course the flight was delayed - we ran to the gate while other pax were still looking at duty free shops :D

Most airport staff go to T2 for lunch. In fact, it's like an employee canteen/cafeteria there during lunch hour.

Yes, T2 is what I actually meant to imply. My bad.

And they get discounts. :D

Oh, and I can't praise the newspaper agents at HKG enough. Especially when coming from Shanghai I tend to stock up heavily on my favourite magazines.

I stock up all those HK magazines everytime I leave HKG. Next, Sudden Weekly, Eat Drink Man Woman, Eastweek, East Touch, Weekend HK ......

If you have DBS Black you can essentially pick up four of those mags for free every time you exit HKG

If you have DBS Black you can essentially pick up four of those mags for free every time you exit HKG

Unfortunately given I live in Australia there is no way I could get myself one of those HK based credit cards. I have to say that I would love to have a few of them only because of all those special offers associated with those cards.

Unfortunately given I live in Australia there is no way I could get myself one of those HK based credit cards. I have to say that I would love to have a few of them only because of all those special offers associated with those cards.

Same here :(

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Here's another one for why English skills have deteriorated - how many cinemas show US movies - such as Brave - in English anymore?

In my day, the closest you can get to Chinese is to read the subtitles.

I see lots of Hollywood movies in English in HK!

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In cinemas? BT and streaming at home excluded....

...just joking. But still, there's like 10 cinemas showing Brave in dubbed Canto vs 3 in English.

There should be both options, I have never seen a Hollywood movie only available in Cantonese and not in English.

I see lots of Hollywood movies in English in HK!

Yes the adult ones, but think about all the disney/pixar movies - they are widely available in Chinese. English version is available but you fewer and fewer sessions offers English version.

Not that I'm criticizing Hong Kong, it's everywhere - things are so localized nowaday. All the movies, games have big writing saying 'everyone speaks Danish/Swedish'.

There should be both options, I have never seen a Hollywood movie only available in Cantonese and not in English.

Not saying it's totally not available.
Just not as many as Canto
Oh - and out of the way/not mainstream:

Case in point - Brave:

Broadway Cinemas/AMC
http://www.cinema.com.hk/revamp/html/movie_ticketing.php?lang=e&mode=ticketing
http://www.amccinemas.com.hk/tkting_upcoming.php?lang=e&mode=ticketing
Cantonese: 9 (Hollywood Plaza, Olympian City, Palace apm, Kwai Fong, Kingswood Ginza, Cyberport, Mongkok, Tsuen Wan, Yuen Long, Festival Walk)
English: 6 (Cinamatheque, Cyberport, Palace ifc, The One, Festival Walk, Pacific Place)
More cinemas than I first thought, but the first two English cinemas are really out of the way. The remaining English cinemas are high-end and the people who go there are more likely to be better-educated on everything including English.

UA:
http://www.uacinemas.com.hk/eng/movie/MovieListing
Cantonese: 8 (Cityplaza, Windsor, Langham Place, Megabox, Shatin, tmtplaza, Citygate and Macau)
English: 3 (Director's Club, Citygate and Macau)
Again, similar to Broadway/AMC, the English cinemas are really out of the way. Even fewer locations show English.

Not saying it's totally not available.
Just not as many as Canto

Well, considering that out of the 7.5 million people who live in Hong Kong, the first language of about 7 million is some form of Chinese (overwhelmingly Cantonese, I would gather, at least as of 2012), I'm actually surprised that many places are showing them in English!

I think in general that is not a good thing, since the shift is towards rich Mainland Chinese, which aren't exactly German intellectuals fleeing the rise of the Nazi party in the 1930's. Flatly, they tend to be crass boors one step removed from hinterland peasants that spoil a good party. The moniker of "locusts", widely used in Hong Kong to describe them, is apt. Having the opportunity to buy the same Louis Vuitton or Prada crap in 15 different locations in town makes me sad.



^

Names of a lot of places were changed to "de-colonize" the place.

This is know in the inner circle as: "Let your children make mistakes early in their career with other people's money before joining 'the firm'." :DAnd "if we help these guys out with jobs now, later the family comes to us for business"

My experience from before and after is basically on the etiquette of mainlanders.

It is like nobody has any experience with how to do things or say things or even courtesy.

It was a different world before the takeover from my experience. Simple greetings and courtesy are long gone with the mainlanders.

To me, it is like the barbarians entering Rome with no regards to anything among the HK propers.

If I had a run of things, they need to setup charm and etiquette schools all over mainland China before letting them into HK itself.

I have issues with the British and I know of the dirty deeds of colonialism, but god darn it, they had charm and ease on doing things in life. It wasn't a pushover but it was proper, formal, and respectful.

Today, none of that is true.

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on with various incidents but I will share one incident that I can tell there is a change. The speaking of English, for some time, people understood English and yes simple Chinese is the norm now, but before the handover, the lots of the main administration understood English. Today, that is not possible. It's like and reminds me of my time in the United States. In the beginning, everything was English here and English there. Now today you can walk into any DMV or state agencies like in Oregon or California and it is in Spanish and English.

Now if any other naysayers made this far in my ramblings of life before and after the takeover, this isn't a political discussion, it is a cultural discussion and maybe a study of human psychology and human behavior. It can happen anywhere in the world when city and rural cultures collide.

My experience from before and after is basically on the etiquette of mainlanders.


The "mainland" has changed a great deal during the course of the past 15 years. People now dress better in Shanghai than in HK (imo), are comparable on the English front, and don't push each other on subways; in fact, most are pretty good at giving up their seats to senior citizens or persons with disabilities. By contrast, Wanchai (where I spend most of my time when I'm in HK) is still filled with brothels and drunken expats.

The "mainland" has changed a great deal during the course of the past 15 years. People now dress better in Shanghai than in HK (imo), are comparable on the English front, and don't push each other on subways; in fact, most are pretty good at giving up their seats to senior citizens or persons with disabilities. By contrast, Wanchai (where I spend most of my time when I'm in HK) is still filled with brothels and drunken expats.

I can imagine that. There is no doubt that people in big cities in China are at least as well off as HK.

However China is a big country, you have a big variation of people. A lot of them are not living in big cities or as 'foreign' labour in big cities. I don't think they are as civilised as the city people and perhaps some just choose not to.

We have seen on newspaper reporting that people in Shanghai use the underground train as toilet - and fortunately this hasn't happened much in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong is a small city, and the Brits were able to 'civilise' us by teaching not to use public area as toilet.

It takes time to 'civilise' people, and especially for big country like China. I have seen a lot of the not so nice kind in Hong Kong. I know there are a lot of nice Chinese tourists who behave themselve so well that they blanded into the crowd so that we only notice the 'bad' ones because they take away all the attention.

Also when you go to Ocean park or Disneyland - very likely that you will meet the first timer Mainland tourist to Hong Kong. A lot of them are not from big cities (I saw on their tour flag), and a lot of them try to squeeze through queues etc. Mainlander are NOT the only ones who does these things - some very wealthy Indians do too. I told them when they tried to squeeze through me but they simply ignore me and of course the staffs at the park don't care :mad:

Deleted

My experience from before and after is basically on the etiquette of mainlanders.

It is like nobody has any experience with how to do things or say things or even courtesy.

It was a different world before the takeover from my experience. Simple greetings and courtesy are long gone with the mainlanders.

To me, it is like the barbarians entering Rome with no regards to anything among the HK propers.

If I had a run of things, they need to setup charm and etiquette schools all over mainland China before letting them into HK itself.

I have issues with the British and I know of the dirty deeds of colonialism, but god darn it, they had charm and ease on doing things in life. It wasn't a pushover but it was proper, formal, and respectful.

Today, none of that is true.

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on with various incidents but I will share one incident that I can tell there is a change. The speaking of English, for some time, people understood English and yes simple Chinese is the norm now, but before the handover, the lots of the main administration understood English. Today, that is not possible. It's like and reminds me of my time in the United States. In the beginning, everything was English here and English there. Now today you can walk into any DMV or state agencies like in Oregon or California and it is in Spanish and English.

Now if any other naysayers made this far in my ramblings of life before and after the takeover, this isn't a political discussion, it is a cultural discussion and maybe a study of human psychology and human behavior. It can happen anywhere in the world when city and rural cultures collide.

It happened in BC too.
Before, it was only English.
Now, I can get service in Cantonese, Mandarin, Punjabi, and Hindi.
And this is more spoken and heard before our official language, French.

One of the reasons why I'm excited for Disneyland in SHA so that MainLanders can stay in their own country and get the same thing.
There's also more traffic now.

Calm down, you shouldn't generalise people - there are a lot of people in China and those we don't notice are the nice ones. There are also uncivilised people coming from India for example. To be honest I think the worst are those who think they deserve to be ahead of everyone and that they should get more than everyone else because they have $ to travel - it doesn't matter where they are from and there are people like this everywhere.

There are 2 things that really put me off by some mainlanders:

1. They grab my kids without asking to take a picture with them (fyi they don't work for ocean park nor they get any commission from the park either :D);

2. They squeeze my kids face for no reason.

No one else has ever done this except some Chinese - I'm from HK and I don't think this is done in HK. You ought to ask before grabbing other peoples' kids.

Could any Chinese FTer please explain to me if it's done in China?

Calm down, you shouldn't generalise people - there are a lot of people in China and those we don't notice are the nice ones. There are also uncivilised people coming from India for example. To be honest I think the worst are those who think they deserve to be ahead of everyone and that they should get more than everyone else because they have $ to travel - it doesn't matter where they are from and there are people like this everywhere.

There are 2 things that really put me off by some mainlanders:

1. They grab my kids without asking to take a picture with them (fyi they don't work for ocean park nor they get any commission from the park either :D);

2. They squeeze my kids face for no reason.

No one else has ever done this except some Chinese - I'm from HK and I don't think this is done in HK. You ought to ask before grabbing other peoples' kids.

Could any Chinese FTer please explain to me if it's done in China?

Rather, you ought not to grab anyone's anything!

My students in Shenzhen every now and then patted my hair. I'm from the US, and don't look like what they thought all Americans did, who to them have blue eyes and "yellow" hair. Sarcastically, is another change from fifteen years ago that now there are more HKers (and mainlanders) with permed orange hair? I'd like put the kibosh on that trend...

Rather, you ought not to grab anyone's anything!

My students in Shenzhen every now and then patted my hair. I'm from the US, and don't look like what they thought all Americans did, who to them have blue eyes and "yellow" hair. Sarcastically, is another change from fifteen years ago that now there are more HKers (and mainlanders) with permed orange hair? I'd like put the kibosh on that trend...

I've seen that too.

The "mainland" has changed a great deal during the course of the past 15 years. People now dress better in Shanghai than in HK (imo), are comparable on the English front, and don't push each other on subways; in fact, most are pretty good at giving up their seats to senior citizens or persons with disabilities. By contrast, Wanchai (where I spend most of my time when I'm in HK) is still filled with brothels and drunken expats.

Let's not get crazy here..

1. Changing in last 15 years - true. No denial there.

2. Dressing better in Shanghai? mm - disagree. Maybe in the super ritzy areas if at all?

3. Comparable on the English front? Maybe in the French Concession or Pu-Jersey. In taxis? Regular Chinese restraurants/shops? Not a prayer

4. Pushing each other on subways and giving seats up... don't know. They still do hardcore in Beijing - but that's beyond the point.

5. You're in the last bastion of old Wanchai. Walk 1 block either way and its either local or semi-Central-like ritzy/gentrified. Rents have skyrocketed in the past few years here as this area is cleaned up. Wanchai is not just all 2 blocks of Lockhart Road (though many who live here too still think so - I live in Wanchai and can vouch otherwise - though go go bars are still in full force).

Wait, but Shanghai, just like the rest of the mainland still has recycled oil in restaurants/poisoned food, collapsing buildings, crappy air quality etc etc etc...

All of this being said, I love China but am aware of its many shortcomings. I do sadly sense a significant tint of racism/bigotry developing in this thread against those from Mainland Chinese and ask people to stop and/or mods to lock this thread to stop it from escalating.

Names of a lot of places were changed to "de-colonize" the place.

Like where?:confused:

Names of a lot of places were changed to "de-colonize" the place.

Yes, where?

I think the rule is you cannot name any new roads or squares after non-Chinese individuals post-handover, except for internationally-recognised humanitarians like Florence Nightingale (I'm not sure if that's only an example RTHK made up or if the Roads Dept actually named a road or place after her).

Private property can still be named for foreign individuals.

All of this being said, I love China but am aware of its many shortcomings. I do sadly sense a significant tint of racism/bigotry developing in this thread against those from Mainland Chinese and ask people to stop and/or mods to lock this thread to stop it from escalating.

Jamoldo, slightly off-topic but still germane question--do you know when (if?) HK and Shenzhen's metro systems will allow for interchangeable utilization of the Octopus and Shenzhentong cards, respectively? Might this extend to the currently under construction Dongguan-Huizhou light rail too? Granted, there's the whole exchange rate/valuation issue, but gosh darn that would be convenient, swiping an unsweetened green tea at the 7-11 at HKG all the way to the metro exit at SZX...

The "mainland" has changed a great deal during the course of the past 15 years. People now dress better in Shanghai than in HK (imo), are comparable on the English front, and don't push each other on subways; in fact, most are pretty good at giving up their seats to senior citizens or persons with disabilities. By contrast, Wanchai (where I spend most of my time when I'm in HK) is still filled with brothels and drunken expats.

I can't say that my experience with finding English speakers has been as successful as yours (though if you are generally in Shanghai and Beijing, that may be a reason why). On the other hand, even if the lot still don't speak much more than a lick of English, I think what has changed is an increased confidence in speaking English. To be fair, I never frequent places where the 富二代 go unless I want a foreign food item or gee, a cleaner restroom, but the areas where billiards tables are sometimes on fire/in the middle of a road, a "hey man, who are you?" might be heard.

I can't say that my experience with finding English speakers has been as successful as yours (though if you are generally in Shanghai and Beijing, that may be a reason why). On the other hand, even if the lot still don't speak much more than a lick of English, I think what has changed is an increased confidence in speaking English. To be fair, I never frequent places where the 富二代 go unless I want a foreign food item or gee, a cleaner restroom, but the areas where billiards tables are sometimes on fire/in the middle of a road, a "hey man, who are you?" might be heard.
In TST quite a few shop owners speak English because of tourists.

Jamoldo, slightly off-topic but still germane question--do you know when (if?) HK and Shenzhen's metro systems will allow for interchangeable utilization of the Octopus and Shenzhentong cards, respectively? Might this extend to the currently under construction Dongguan-Huizhou light rail too? Granted, there's the whole exchange rate/valuation issue, but gosh darn that would be convenient, swiping an unsweetened green tea at the 7-11 at HKG all the way to the metro exit at SZX...

No idea, to be honest. Wish I could be of more help, but given recent sentiment I don't see this happening soon (I could very well be wrong)

In TST quite a few shop owners speak English because of tourists.

I know...as do many of the damn touts in front of Chungking Mansions. But actually, I was referring to English on the mainland (as moondog was), not HK- whoops!

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Jamoldo, slightly off-topic but still germane question--do you know when (if?) HK and Shenzhen's metro systems will allow for interchangeable utilization of the Octopus and Shenzhentong cards, respectively? Might this extend to the currently under construction Dongguan-Huizhou light rail too? Granted, there's the whole exchange rate/valuation issue, but gosh darn that would be convenient, swiping an unsweetened green tea at the 7-11 at HKG all the way to the metro exit at SZX...

No idea, to be honest. Wish I could be of more help, but given recent sentiment I don't see this happening soon (I could very well be wrong)

Octopus has interlinked with Lingnan Pass (the system in Guangzhou). But no news on Shenzhentong unfortunately.

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Octopus has interlinked with Lingnan Pass (the system in Guangzhou). But no news on Shenzhentong unfortunately.

No idea, to be honest. Wish I could be of more help, but given recent sentiment I don't see this happening soon (I could very well be wrong)

Jamoldo, slightly off-topic but still germane question--do you know when (if?) HK and Shenzhen's metro systems will allow for interchangeable utilization of the Octopus and Shenzhentong cards, respectively? Might this extend to the currently under construction Dongguan-Huizhou light rail too? Granted, there's the whole exchange rate/valuation issue, but gosh darn that would be convenient, swiping an unsweetened green tea at the 7-11 at HKG all the way to the metro exit at SZX...

Being a guy that work inside the one-and-only transportation payment company in Hong Kong, there are 2 main type of cross border Octopus

1. Octopus + Lingnan Pass (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/cross-border-octopus/octopus-lingnan-pass/en/index.html)
2. Octopus + Shenzhen Pass (Hu Tong Xin) (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/cross-border-octopus/hu-tong-xing/en/index.html)

Both card can be purchase at majority MTR station (exclude AEL, Disney and blah blah blah). Note that these are SOLD octopus that you cannot refund (or I should say.... you can get the remaining value back but not Return the card to get back the HKD 98 / RMB 80 fee)

These cards act as a "2 card stick together" and contains 2 electronic wallet, meaning when the card is present on Mainland China reader, the RMB wallet will get deducted and if it is present on a Octopus Reader, the HKD wallet will get deducted. The only difference is if you REALLY stick 2 card together, it actually won't work due to interference / too many cards read hence refusing transaction

If you pay at Macau or ShenZhen on a Octopus Reader, the transaction amount is auto converted from RMB to HKD and deducted from HKD wallet.

The universal cross border transaction (i.e. using normal Octopus card in China / Macau and vice versa) is not possible yet.

My comments online only represents my owns. It did not, does not and never will represents my company's standpoint.

The "mainland" has changed a great deal during the course of the past 15 years. People now dress better in Shanghai than in HK (imo), are comparable on the English front, and don't push each other on subways; in fact, most are pretty good at giving up their seats to senior citizens or persons with disabilities. By contrast, Wanchai (where I spend most of my time when I'm in HK) is still filled with brothels and drunken expats.

Sorry moondog,

As a ex-Shanghai freaking frequent flyer, I totally disagree that people in Shanghai dress better. It may be true for people around tourist or high end office area, when you compare ordinary people, say people work in Small companies, restaurant, the sales in clothing store, it is a massive different.

While I don't travel enough on subway when I was there I cannot comment and you still see drunk foreigner everywhere, not limited to Hong Kong and Shanghai but also Tokyo and Singapore so I fail to see how it compares.

Being a guy that work inside the one-and-only transportation payment company in Hong Kong, there are 2 main type of cross border Octopus

1. Octopus + Lingnan Pass (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/cross-border-octopus/octopus-lingnan-pass/en/index.html)
2. Octopus + Shenzhen Pass (Hu Tong Xin) (http://www.octopus.com.hk/get-your-octopus/choose-your-octopus/cross-border-octopus/hu-tong-xing/en/index.html)

Both card can be purchase at majority MTR station (exclude AEL, Disney and blah blah blah). Note that these are SOLD octopus that you cannot refund (or I should say.... you can get the remaining value back but not Return the card to get back the HKD 98 / RMB 80 fee)

These cards act as a "2 card stick together" and contains 2 electronic wallet, meaning when the card is present on Mainland China reader, the RMB wallet will get deducted and if it is present on a Octopus Reader, the HKD wallet will get deducted. The only difference is if you REALLY stick 2 card together, it actually won't work due to interference / too many cards read hence refusing transaction

If you pay at Macau or ShenZhen on a Octopus Reader, the transaction amount is auto converted from RMB to HKD and deducted from HKD wallet.

The universal cross border transaction (i.e. using normal Octopus card in China / Macau and vice versa) is not possible yet.

My comments online only represents my owns. It did not, does not and never will represents my company's standpoint.

No kidding! That's good enough for now, but I never see ads for either of these cards (in Chinese or English)...any reason for their purchase to be discouraged? If only one could get it at HKG (the Hutongxin, at least), so I can take one of the Shenzhen Bay shuttles and hopefully seamlessly start using it on one of the public buses.

In Shenzhen, the only place I recall being able to use the actual Octopus card is at the Cafe de Coral chain (reason being, there's one on Jianshe Lu, by Luo Hu train station).