Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - New long-haul Eco award booking class introduced today & Increase Premium Voyageur

Dear All,

Jouy31 and I have been informed of the following changes:

1) Effective today, a new award booking class has been introduced for long-haul flights.

This booking class comes in addition to the current scheme, thus increasing overall availability.

For long-haul flights, you will see the following awards available for economy:



50% - Promo awards (pending availability);
100% - standard awards;
115% - extra availability for Elite members on Air France, available for all destinations;
125% - extra availability for all members. On Air France routes, it is available for all flights; for KLM flights it is available for Europe to Africa 2 (Southern Africa + Indian Ocean) and Latin America 1 (Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela);
200% - Flex awards.


2) the amount of Miles necessary for a Classic award in Premium Voyageur Cabin (booking class A) rises from 125% to 150% on North Atlantic.

Best,

Jouy31 & Gajan

This booking class comes in addition to the current scheme, thus increasing overall availability.



Thank you for this information. I do hve a problem with the "thus" in the above sentence. Does adding another booking class necessarily increase overall availability? I have a feeling this might just be an average redemption cost increase through the back door. Please prove me wrong! :rolleyes:

Thank you for this information. I do hve a problem with the "thus" in the above sentence. Does adding another booking class necessarily increase overall availability? I have a feeling this might just be an average redemption cost increase through the back door. Please prove me wrong! :rolleyes:

Good point. They will problably prove you wrong, but we will never be able to check...:eek:.
Poor execution of the Flying Blue program was one of the reasons for my wife and myself (both FB Platinums for several years) to switch to Cathay Marco Polo. But I'm still interested in the answer on your question: still have to spend a couple hundred of thousands of points ;)

This is an excerpt from the e-mail we received from the Air France/KLM FFP:

It means that, on long haul we will increase the number of seats available.

Other than that, I guess we will all have to check availability on similar routes at the same time of the year.

Well, I hope so.

But one can't help wondering if, even if there are extra seats available for redemption, if the numbers available in the "cheaper" classes will stay the same as before.

If they simply wished to increase the number of seats available, they could have done it at the classic 100% level.
One cannot help consider that this is a backdoor increase in award level and that it will displace the 100% awards. They will wait a few months though.

If they simply wished to increase the number of seats available, they could have done it at the classic 100% level.
One cannot help consider that this is a backdoor increase in award level and that it will displace the 100% awards. They will wait a few months though.

+1
Perfect analyses imho

2) the amount of Miles necessary for a Classic award in Premium Voyageur Cabin (booking class A) rises from 125% to 150% on North Atlantic.


I don't understand that bit. Does it mean it remains 125% on other destinations but is 150% on Europe-North America?? Meaning that some destinations are more expensive from Europe than North America in Economy and Business but the same in Premium Economy??? (60-75-120 whereby NA would be 50-75-100). It just seems rather odd to me and I strongly hope this is not the prelude to worse news.

I don't understand that bit. Does it mean it remains 125% on other destinations but is 150% on Europe-North America??
The Air France/KLM FFP confirms that the above-mentioned increase currently applies only to flights between Europe and the U.S./Canada.

The Air France/KLM FFP confirms that the above-mentioned increase currently applies only to flights between Europe and the U.S./Canada.


I don't like that 'currently'. In fact, I think we should sound vuvuzuelas every time they put 'currently' in a release! :rolleyes:

I don't like that 'currently'. In fact, I think we should sound zuzuvelas every time they put 'currently' in a release! :rolleyes:

I think you mean vuvuzelas:)

I don't like that 'currently'. In fact, I think we should sound zuzuvelas every time they put 'currently' in a release! :rolleyes:

Well, I would be suspicious of any FFP that would include "always" in their communication ;).

I think you mean vuvuzelas:)

Thanks Gajan! Duly corrected! @JOUY31 - their lawyers would kill them before you could get suspicious! ;) But I think specifying 'currently' is not a neutral message especially in the context of the tensed relationship between FB and its members over the past 4 years.

@JOUY31 - their lawyers would kill them before you could get suspicious! ;)

On a more serious note (on my part), I believe the representatives of the FFP are being as open as they can. You have met them, as Gajan and myself. One of the issues, regardless of what may have happened in the past and of the short-term variations, is that, for the three European majors, the revenue from the fuel surcharge has increased, over the past year, less than the overall fuel bill.

So, yes, the overall structure of the long-haul awards is currently under review, and the two changes - adding a new booking class for awards and raising the cost of awards in Premium Voyageur to the U.S. and Canada are just minor fine-tuning of the existing structure. I would say the representatives of the FFP are being as open as possible. When they say "currently", it just means that they are aware that they can make no long-term commitments on the issue that has been raised.

On a more serious note (on my part), I believe the representatives of the FFP are being as open as they can. You have met them, as Gajan and myself. One of the issues, regardless of what may have happened in the past and of the short-term variations, is that, for the three European majors, the revenue from the fuel surcharge has increased, over the past year, less than the overall fuel bill.

So, yes, the overall structure of the long-haul awards is currently under review, and the two changes - adding a new booking class for awards and raising the cost of awards in Premium Voyageur to the U.S. and Canada are just minor fine-tuning of the existing structure. I would say the representatives of the FFP are being as open as possible. When they say "currently", it just means that they are aware that they can make no long-term commitments on the issue that has been raised.

What can be criticized is not the openness of FB representatives to FT representatives about the redeem increase, but the increase itself. I am focusing on longhaul awards. For example a RT award to HKG in Business will de facto increase from 160Km to 200Km under the new booking class. I can get F class on CX for 180Km using BAEC and only 120Km in J.

To earn miles on revenue flights, one has to pay higher fare (base fare and YQ) than some years ago, so that the "value" of earned miles increase. Hence, there is no economic reason to increase the number of miles for awards. Furthermore it is some double paying of the fuel surcharge: we pay once when buying the rev ticket to earn miles and another time when redeeming. I am not arguing with the "new" practice of transforming "free" award ticket into miles+cash tickets, but cannot understand any logical cost argument about raising the number of miles for awards. It is just some plain cost-cutting and AFKL balance sheet revaluation.
That is AF choice ("all routes") and it further reduces the attraction of their FFP. But please no blabla to motivate it. As J award tickets are the major awards for frequent flyers, this is no fine tuning. it is a back-door 25% increase in miles required. I do recognize that they have made improvements in other respects (e.g. miles rollover). But this is a significant negative move.

What can be criticized is not the openness of FB representatives to FT representatives about the redeem increase, but the increase itself. I am focusing on longhaul awards. For example a RT award to HKG in Business will de facto increase from 160Km to 200Km under the new booking class. I can get F class on CX for 180Km using BAEC and only 120Km in J.

(...) As J award tickets are the major awards for frequent flyers, this is no fine tuning. it is a back-door 25% increase in miles required. I do recognize that they have made improvements in other respects (e.g. miles rollover). But this is a significant negative move.

I am not sure I understand your comment about J awards to Asia increasing from 120K to 160K, as the current changes involve a new booking class in Y and an increase on North Atlantic routes for awards in Premium Voyageur. Or are you considering probable increases for J awards as a result of these two changes?

I'll wait and see what happens next. Re-all three majors, it is worth noting that with BA, long haul redemptions have either remained stable or become cheaper with the latest changes including in W, J, and P (different for short haul as things depend on whether one is using direct or indirect flights). LH has not changed anything, and again certainly not in J and P. There is therefore clearly no unanimity in the industry as to whether (and what) changes are needed to award schedules. To be honest, I don't personally care about W awards as I don't use them but I can imagine some people will be unhappy. For the rest, I can only restate what I said before: any (hypothetical) increase in mileage costs in long haul J awards would, in my humble opinion, be a further most significant stab in the back of FB members and particularly of elite members who are most likely to redeem that way. I want to make it extremely clear that I have not heard that this will happen, but simply, since it seems that premium classes have been the main 'target' for increase so far, one cannot avoid thinking about what might come next and send a clear signal to FB as what would be my personal most hated possible aspect of any further revision of redemption schedules. As, as you mention, FB seem to be thinking about this overall schedule, I would suggest that it is important for anyone to voice any preference/'red lines'. In their recent programme overhaul, it was clear that BA had listened to the majority of their elite members for what had to be 'protected' and what could be 'sacrificed'. They made explicit reference to most valued members' opinions in protecting the relatively cheap W to J upgrade cost (available, should I restress, from any premium economy fare incluing the cheapest). By contrast, I know I was in a minority in wanting to retain some easier qualification thresholds for non-British European members so that (unfortunately for me but apparently happily for most) ended up going. This was a good case of airline listening to members pre-change.

I am not sure I understand your comment about J awards to Asia increasing from 120K to 160K, as the current changes involve a new booking class in Y and an increase on North Atlantic routes for awards in Premium Voyageur. Or are you considering probable increases for J awards as a result of these two changes?

Sorry if I was not clear.

My assumption is that J award will get the same "new booking class with increased availability" at 125%. This what I meant when I said in my post that AF J awards to HKG will "increase" from 160K to 200K. Not yet announced, but quite likely.

I was then comparing to the number of miles for the nonstop CX CDG-HKG using BAEC. The levels have been reduced by BAEC to 120K in J and 180K in F. If/when the FB change will take place, the comparison with BAEC will be even more unfavorable. I know a FB mile is not an avios, but I find it easier to earn avios than FB miles.
For the few redeeming in Y, it is 60K for avios and will be 100K with the new FB booking class.

Sorry if I was not clear.

My assumption is that J award will get the same "new booking class with increased availability" at 125%. This what I meant when I said in my post that AF J awards to HKG will "increase" from 160K to 200K. Not yet announced, but quite likely.

I was then comparing to the number of miles for the nonstop CX CDG-HKG using BAEC. The levels have been reduced by BAEC to 120K in J and 180K in F. If/when the FB change will take place, the comparison with BAEC will be even more unfavorable. I know a FB mile is not an avios, but I find it easier to earn avios than FB miles.
For the few redeeming in Y, it is 60K for avios and will be 100K with the new FB booking class.

Thanks for clarifying.

I have already seen this new booking class effective this morning. I was booking a CDG-BKK-CDG award ticket for an ivory family member, and for one leg on the AF flight, Y and PV were both proposed at 50,000 miles ! So in Y, this was corresponding to the new 125% booking class available to all members.

The information is also available on Flying Blue news (http://www.flyingbluenews.com/news/1235/meer-award-tickets-beschikbaar-op-langeafstandsvluchten-van-air-france.html).

My assumption is that AF J awards to HKG will "increase" from 160K to 200K.

200K is the price for F (one way) award, so what would be the next for First...

All this is just Mambo Jumbo and blame shifting. It all started with the addition of YQ to award ticket which was totally uncalled for and unethical. Now the even more unethical part kicks in with increase in redemption thresholds, despite the fact that customers have earned the miles under a different system. Sure we agreed to that because this is the the FB contract. But it is still what it is.

Now the original sin was the exclusion of YQ from the award structure. Sure the price of JetFuel has increased. But so have the tickets through the YQ that **most of us** pay. Therefore, the marginal cost of crediting miles to customers for future award travels to the original purchased ticket price is about the same percentage wise.

And with miles having a validity of 18 months for most of AF customers, the possible impact of a sudden rise in fuel price is almost entirely hedged for.

---> All this, can have two different answers:
- either they are not truthfull and disguise Flying Burrito Miles devaluation behind a screen of smoke and mirrors
- or they were grossly incompetent in taking appropriate steps to hedge their award liability in the face of uncertain fuel prices. And they don't admit it i.e. face saving.

Minos