Air France Frequence Plus - Airline canceled flight, no airport change allowed during rebook?

hi. i booked a ticket from europe to hongkong on af, will travel in a couple of month. now i saw that they changed the timetable for this destination, so my return flight is canceled and they force me to get on the plane a half day before (original booked time was 10:50am, they changed it to 11:35pm the day before). they only have this 11:35pm flight anymore, so they only offered me to take another day or cancel the whole trip.
I asked them to change the booking to BKK instead of HKG, because this is the destination I will be before take a flight from BKK to HKG and fly back to europe and there would be a 10:50am flight to paris. They refused this, only want to allow me a date chance, not a airport chance. Is this legal?

Airlines don't have to rebook you to or from a different airport than the one originally booked. Any rebooking to/from a different airport would be at the airline's discretion - they may choose to do this as a gesture of goodwill, but they don't have to do it. (KLM agreed to rebook me to a different airport once when my original flight was cancelled, but this was a different airport in the same country)

However, what airlines should do is try to reaccommodate you on a flight that's as close as possible to your original departure time. They can't insist that you leave a day early (what if the whole point of your trip is a function on the day they're now expecting you to travel?)

I had a similar issue with AF a couple of years ago, when they also tried to rebook me from a morning flight to an evening flight the day before... which I wouldn't have been able to make because I had other commitments that evening. I did my own research, found an alternative flight close to the original time (on another Skyteam carrier), and asked AF to rebook me on that. They did!

So - what I suggest you do is go to www.amadeus.net, enter your itinerary, select the "Skyteam only" option on the next screen and present AF with your proposal. Having just entered HKG to CDG for a random date in August I can see that there is a daytime flight on Aeroflot.. maybe not quite what you want but possibly better than departing the night before.

how could it be cheaper for the airline to book me on a different carrier than booked me just to another departure airport?
I saw the Aeroflot flight but with a travel time of over 30 hours (CDG is not my final destinations). There is only the 11:35pm flight left as a skyteam flight that will let me reach my destination within the same day. I can only find non-skyteam flights with a simular departure and arrival time.

When you don't get what you want, the first thing to do is politely -- and I stress politely -- end the call and then call back and speak with another agent.

But, before you call -- here are the facts you need to gather so that you can ask for what you want clearly and concisely:

1. Accept the fact that your original flight no longer exists and that there are only so many options.

2. You could cancel your booking and receive a full refund to your original form of payment. Depending on what it would cost to rebook the new route you want, that may or may not be a better deal. But, you can't judge this until you determine the refund and the new cost.

3. You could propose the specific option(s) you wish, providing the agent with the new departure city, air carrier, & flight number. In order, you will find it easiest to rebook on the carrier, on alliance partners and lastly, on non-alliance carriers. The last option is extremely rare.

4. Arguing with an agent about the economics of this is not useful. Agents don't conduct these analyses and you have no way of knowing what it costs AF to rebook you on another carrier.

It's always important to understand in advance what you are entitled to vs. what you are seeking. While you should always be polite, the fact is that in your case, you are asking for help in solving a problem, not making a demand under AF's COC.

AF force me to call Expedia as my travel agency, so I can't call AF direct. And the only thing Expedia do, is calling AF. So everything take time.
Last week I called Expedia and told them about the problem and give them the flightnumbers of the flight from Bangkok. I waited around 40 minutes on line but then they told me, they can only rebook me on another AF flight from Hongkong. No other change allowed.
Cancellation is not a option, it was a promo deal, so I have to pay about 50% more for a simular flight now.
The problem is I will arrive HKG from BKK around 10:30pm the day prior my original booking. So my plan was to stay one night at the airport and fly next morning back to europe. The connection time is to less to take the 11:35pm flight, at least because its booked on two different tickets and I dont want to take the risk. Even if they rebook me to the evening of the day my original booking was I have to spend a full day in HKG (I dont want that) and will reach my home one day to late. So best option would be the flight from BKK to CDG, I would be at home in the same time than original booked and its an AF flight. But they just said "no" to it.

AF force me to call Expedia as my travel agency, so I can't call AF direct. And the only thing Expedia do, is calling AF. So everything take time.
Last week I called Expedia and told them about the problem and give them the flightnumbers of the flight from Bangkok. I waited around 40 minutes on line but then they told me, they can only rebook me on another AF flight from Hongkong. No other change allowed.
Cancellation is not a option, it was a promo deal, so I have to pay about 50% more for a simular flight now.
The problem is I will arrive HKG from BKK around 10:30pm the day prior my original booking. So my plan was to stay one night at the airport and fly next morning back to europe. The connection time is to less to take the 11:35pm flight, at least because its booked on two different tickets and I dont want to take the risk. Even if they rebook me to the evening of the day my original booking was I have to spend a full day in HKG (I dont want that) and will reach my home one day to late. So best option would be the flight from BKK to CDG, I would be at home in the same time than original booked and its an AF flight. But they just said "no" to it.

It's always important to get all the facts. OP never mentioned that he had not purchased the ticket from AF, but rather from a third-party online service (not a TA). Unfortunately, he is stuck not only with AF's policies and procedures but with any additional restrictions which Expedia imposes.

Online sites can be useful when they provide extraordinary savings, but everybody has to realize that when things go wrong, as they have done here, getting them fixed is harder and less satisfying.

OP's situation can't be changed, but this fair warning for others. How much did OP save by using Expedia over what AF would have provided directly?

How much did OP save by using Expedia over what AF would have provided directly?

This is not a 100% bet. Last year I bought a ticket at aeroflot.ru. Aeroflot Customer Service told me I have to contact the ticket agency, they didn't want to help me. After I told them I bought the ticket direct from aeroflot they refuse this and still told me they are not the seller of this ticket, so finally they didnt help me.

Expedia is now just the man in the middle, they just have work with me and cant earn money to this, but they also dont loose money if AF would rebook me to another airport.

Please continue to follow this thread in the AF Forum.
Thanks..
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

Others have, unfortunately, accurately described the situation to you: since your trip is in a couple of months, all AF has to do is offer you a choice of rescheduling (from same origin to same destination) on the closest available flights with a reasonable level of flexibility (e.g. giving you the choice of the day before or after should not be a problem) or fully refunding your ticket without penalty. Offering a flight from another city is under no circumstances an obligation (even though I agree it would have been clever of them to say yes and probably wouldn't cost them more anyway). It is also correct that with the ticket being bought on Expedia, AF won't touch the reservation (it is the same with all airlines) and as a result, expedia will be bound by the 'standard' rescheduling conditions given to travel agents or will need to call AF for any exception which they will probably only do begrudgingly. I must admit that while I use expedia a lot and am usually fine with them, I haven't had the best experiences with them when problems have occurred.

So in short your options are limited. Reimbursement, accepting the rescheduling they offer, asking to fly off the following day or rerouting with KLM (I doubt they would offer SU). You can also try and insist with Expedia but I think your chances of success are extremely low.

This is not a 100% bet. Last year I bought a ticket at aeroflot.ru. Aeroflot Customer Service told me I have to contact the ticket agency, they didn't want to help me. After I told them I bought the ticket direct from aeroflot they refuse this and still told me they are not the seller of this ticket, so finally they didnt help me.

Expedia is now just the man in the middle, they just have work with me and cant earn money to this, but they also dont loose money if AF would rebook me to another airport.

OP is booked on AF,not Aeroflot. Why Aeroflot would tell you it didn't issue a ticket which it did issue is beyond me, but has nothing to do with OP's issue.

So in short your options are limited. Reimbursement, accepting the rescheduling they offer, asking to fly off the following day or rerouting with KLM (I doubt they would offer SU). You can also try and insist with Expedia but I think your chances of success are extremely low.

There is also only one KLM flight every day, depart 11:20pm, so this wouldnt change anything.

OP is booked on AF,not Aeroflot. Why Aeroflot would tell you it didn't issue a ticket which it did issue is beyond me, but has nothing to do with OP's issue.

I am the OP, so dont speak in the third person about me please :D
It is another flight, I just want to tell you that a reservation at the airlines website isn't always a good option, sometimes it can be good to have a travel agency you can contact.

It is also correct that with the ticket being bought on Expedia, AF won't touch the reservation (it is the same with all airlines)

I'm not sure it's 100% the same, and I'm surprised that the schedule change hasn't triggered something helpful. I had a severe schedule change to a DL itinerary I booked through Orbitz, and once the ticket had been reissued after the schedule change, DL had control over the ticket and everything went through them. At one stage, I called Orbitz unaware that DL had control of the ticket and was told I would need to call DL.

I had a severe schedule change to a DL itinerary I booked through Orbitz, and once the ticket had been reissued after the schedule change, DL had control over the ticket and everything went through them. At one stage, I called Orbitz unaware that DL had control of the ticket and was told I would need to call DL.You are correct that this is not universal practice but it is nonetheless very common, and probably close to universal outside North America. With Orbitz, I have sometimes had them have tripartite phone calls with the airline as the third party and sometimes the airline has offered to take the ticket over and Orbitz accepted.

The change that they provide (the night before) is not as bad as it sounds.
Rather than leaving in the morning (meaning departing your hotel around 8am), you will still have time for a nice dinner in the city, go to the airport, sleep in the plane and arrive early morning with plenty of time for your onward connection. You lose nothing in HKG and save a hotel night. There was no way you could connect in the morning from BKK to HKG and catch your morning AF flight, so you must have been in HKG the night before.
I am not saying that it is what you wished nor optimal, but the differenc of being rescheduled to the night before is not that bad.

If AF had a very low load from BKK, they might have been a bit more open to rerouting you, but they will have so few flights from BKK that they are likely to have big load.
If you really wish to return from BKK, the best option is to get your original ticket refunded and see how much it would cost to have an open jaw, arriving into HKg and returning from BKK.

The change that they provide (the night before) is not as bad as it sounds.

You haven't read the thread! The OP is arriving from BKK, on a separate ticket, in HKG at 10:30 on the night before the original (now cancelled) flight...which now only gives them an hour to make the new AF departure, instead of the overnight stay at the airport that had originally been envisaged.

My advice to the OP would be - as you are having a hard time getting the AF flight changed, what about changing your flight from BKK to HKG? If it's not changeable/cancellable/re-bookable (and you were prepared to drop this flight if AF had instead flown you direct from BKK), why not try finding a different one-way flight from BKK-HKG that will get you there in time for your AF flight? One ways should be cheap(-ish) on this route. I know it involves spending more money, but it might be the quickest/easiest solution for you.

The airlines that fly BKK-HKG are: Thai, Orient Thai, Cathay Pacific, Air Asia, Hong Kong Airlines, Sri Lankan, Royal Jordanian, Kenya Airways, Pakistan International, Emirates and Ethiopian. They don't all fly every day. You could possibly pick up a very cheap flight on one of those "tags" that operates onwards (i.e. Sri Lankan/Ethiopian/RJJ/Kenya/Emirates ) or on one of the low cost carriers.

Though, of course, make sure you allow PLENTY of time to make your connection at Hong Kong - you may not be able to interline your bags (esp if on a low cost carrier) so allowing time for luggage retrieval, potential delays, etc, you should really consider arriving early on the day of your AF departure.

why not try finding a different one-way flight from BKK-HKG that will get you there in time for your AF flight?

Of course this could be a possible way, but what if AF change the schedule again? So why take the risk and costs ony my shoulder if the rescheduling wasnt my fault?
But Expedia Customer Service is very bad. There is no Email Support, i always get the answer that I should call them.

You haven't read the thread! The OP is arriving from BKK, on a separate ticket, in HKG at 10:30 on the night before the original (now cancelled) flight...which now only gives them an hour to make the new AF departure, instead of the overnight stay at the airport that had originally been envisaged.

My advice to the OP would be - as you are having a hard time getting the AF flight changed, what about changing your flight from BKK to HKG? If it's not changeable/cancellable/re-bookable (and you were prepared to drop this flight if AF had instead flown you direct from BKK), why not try finding a different one-way flight from BKK-HKG that will get you there in time for your AF flight? One ways should be cheap(-ish) on this route. I know it involves spending more money, but it might be the quickest/easiest solution for you.

The airlines that fly BKK-HKG are: Thai, Orient Thai, Cathay Pacific, Air Asia, Hong Kong Airlines, Sri Lankan, Royal Jordanian, Kenya Airways, Pakistan International, Emirates and Ethiopian. They don't all fly every day. You could possibly pick up a very cheap flight on one of those "tags" that operates onwards (i.e. Sri Lankan/Ethiopian/RJJ/Kenya/Emirates ) or on one of the low cost carriers.

Though, of course, make sure you allow PLENTY of time to make your connection at Hong Kong - you may not be able to interline your bags (esp if on a low cost carrier) so allowing time for luggage retrieval, potential delays, etc, you should really consider arriving early on the day of your AF departure.

Many apologies, I indeed missed a post.
But my comment becomes even more relevant. If I had the choice, I would much prefer to arrive in HKG from BKK and continue directly to CDG rather than overnighting in the expensive and nofun HKIA hotels. The prospect of boarding the AF 13hr dayflight the next morning will not be fun. Anyway, there is now no choice.

The only flights that arrive late in HKG are TG602 and TG702 (10:30 and 10:35). On these airlines, changing to an earlier flight should entail little change fee. Then go to a paid lounge, take a shower and some snack and relax.

Regarding Expedia, you pay for a low-cost booking service, so you should expect low service.

Cancellation is not a option, it was a promo deal, so I have to pay about 50% more for a simular flight now.

I am a bit surprised by this. I don't think you've stated the POS for the ticket, but I would think that in most countries, consumer protection legislation would mean that in the event of a flight cancellation, you are entitled to choose a full refund, even if the ticket was sold as 'non-refundable'. For example, if you're in the EU, then under EU261/2004 (articles 5.1.a and 8.1.a) you should be entitled to "reimbursement within seven days, ..., of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought". (However, there is presumably not any entitlement to compensation, as you were notified of the cancellation more than 2 weeks in advance).

However, if the cost of new flights (eg: to/from BKK) has gone up in the meantime, then reimbursement may not help you very much.

However, if the cost of new flights (eg: to/from BKK) has gone up in the meantime, then reimbursement may not help you very much.

Right, this is what I mean. Have to pay a lot more for a flight to HKG or BKK now, a refund of the old booking will not help. Would be cheaper to book a second and earlier separate flight from BKK to HKG, but this would be my last option because I dont want to take the costs for a fault of AF.

Right, this is what I mean. Have to pay a lot more for a flight to HKG or BKK now, a refund of the old booking will not help. Would be cheaper to book a second and earlier separate flight from BKK to HKG, but this would be my last option because I dont want to take the costs for a fault of AF.This is always a risk that you take when you have flights on separate itineraries. You could ask them to reroute you the next evening, if that suits.

This is always a risk that you take when you have flights on separate itineraries. You could ask them to reroute you the next evening, if that suits.

But it shouldnt be a risk if I planed 1 night between the two flights. In this case, the airline make a risk out of it.

I will be at home one day to late with this, so...
And even if I accept that, I will arrive in Paris 5:35am and the connection flight to my homebase would be about 1:00pm, so about 7.5 hours to spend in CDG. Thats a long time without lounge access.
If they reroute me with KLM over AMS the connection would only be 3.5 hours.

But it shouldnt be a risk if I planed 1 night between the two flights. In this case, the airline make a risk out of it.

I will be at home one day to late with this, so...
And even if I accept that, I will arrive in Paris 5:35am and the connection flight to my homebase would be about 1:00pm, so about 7.5 hours to spend in CDG. Thats a long time without lounge access.
If they reroute me with KLM over AMS the connection would only be 3.5 hours.

Well, the risk is there because the airlines simply have the right to cancel a flight in their schedule within given conditions. I don't think anyone is doubting the inconvenience, but we are going round in circles. The bottom line (and to go back to your original question), an airline is fully entitled to change its schedules or cancel some flights as long as they give you proper notice, which, in the EU (probably the world's single most protecting system for passengers with regards to airline decisions) is defined as two weeks. All they owe you is a choice of a full refund or rerouting on their nearest possible flight (typically with some reasonable choice of date - usually conceived by AF as within 48 hours before or after your original flight time). That is the legal situation and what you would like them to do is simply not part of what they have to offer and they have told expedia that they won't. I think all other posters are merely trying to suggest least-painful solutions within that constraint, we do realise it is not your ideal (your ideal would have been for them not to cancel that flight you chose or failing that for them to fly you directly from BKK) but sadly, neither of your two ideal scenarii appears to be an option that AF is willing to offer, and as it happens, AF are acting entirely within their right.

But it shouldnt be a risk if I planed 1 night between the two flights. In this case, the airline make a risk out of it.Not on a high or semi-high frequency short-haul route, where there are flights every few hours. On a long-haul route with only one or two flights a day, you have to contemplate the possibility of a cancellation of fundamental change to flight times. It does not mean necessarily ruling it out, but you have to decide for yourself whether the potential downside is worth the risk.

You may or may not have some legal redress depending on how consumer friendly the legislation and courts of the country in which you booked is but it would, in any event, probably be a rather speculative and uncertain one.

Yes, the situation is not ideal and, imo, it is ultimately a matter of minimising the downside rather than hoping for a best-possible-outcome-solution that looks like it is not going to happen.

Thank you. Will forget this for the next time and think about it one month before departure again. So the risk that they will change the schedule again will be very low.
By the way, Expedia didnt inform me about the change till now, my account still show the old morning flight, only the airfrance website show the rebooking.

Of course this could be a possible way, but what if AF change the schedule again? So why take the risk and costs ony my shoulder if the rescheduling wasnt my fault?
But Expedia Customer Service is very bad. There is no Email Support, i always get the answer that I should call them.

My advice again: don't book the new flight until much closer to your departure date. (I recently booked a few flights between KUL and BKK at short notice, on those airlines that call between the two points before heading back to/outwards from Europe (in the case of Lufthansa) and got them for next to nothing even at a late stage - hopefully it might be a similar experience for you on this route with those carriers that will are not operating a point-to-point service between these two cities, but rather are loading up passengers on the two stops to bring them back to home base, or are setting down passengers at two separate stops. (It seems that to book a seat on the "tag" is also quite reasonably cheap). Of course, this is assuming that the carriers I listed above all have the rights to carry local traffic between the intermediate and final stops, but I expect that they do!

This also means that, if by whatever chance you get AF and/or Expedia to cooperate, you might not need that extra flight, afterall.

From EU rules:
"you can choose an alternative flight (airlines call this re-routing) to your final destination as soon as possible, or"

=> flights leaving before the cancelled flight are not considered an alternative per se.

Then if you arrive at destination too late, this can certainly be considered as a delay => Montreal convention kicks in. You can then get your damages refunded (with a limit of around 4000 EUR I think) since AF had not taken any reasonable measures that could have avoided these costs, here to book you on AF BKK CDG: it is their own flight!

Ask again and get a bit aggressive & legal (not too much), then you might be able to get a reasonable settlement.

Blaming the OP for booking long in advance flights on separate ticket.. well, that is the aviation business that is flawed: you cannot always put on the same ticket 2 consecutive fares, some fares require purchase in some countries, prohibits sales in others, some are not combinable, etc. It's a mess, and it is not the OP's fault. Booking a 12 hours connection is very reasonable, even for long haul flights.

Blaming the OP for booking long in advance flights on separate ticket.. well, that is the aviation business that is flawed: you cannot always put on the same ticket 2 consecutive fares, some fares require purchase in some countries, prohibits sales in others, some are not combinable, etc. It's a mess, and it is not the OP's fault. Booking a 12 hours connection is very reasonable, even for long haul flights.

Who else do you want to blame? This is clearly not AF's problem either. If you book 2 separate tickets you are always at risk for irops and unless they are both with the same airline and you have status with them, there is usually very little sympathy for such situations.
It's a difficult situation, but I don't think EU rules apply here. AF canceled the flight and notified the OP with enough advanced notice and offered alternative flights for the route which the OP purchased.
I agree there is a chance that AF will allow a BKK departure, but the OP should also think about alternatives.

You can then get your damages refunded (with a limit of around 4000 EUR I think) since AF had not taken any reasonable measures that could have avoided these costs, here to book you on AF BKK CDG: it is their own flight!

Ask again and get a bit aggressive & legal (not too much), then you might be able to get a reasonable settlement.



I don't agree with what you suggest. If AF refused to move the OP one day earlier or later, then yes, they would not be reasonable, but offering to a flight from a different point of origin is absolutely not 'reasonable measures'. It would have been a nice and clever commercial gesture but no court in the world would consider this a requirement for any airline to replace a HKG-CDG by a BKK-CDG. I think that the recommendation to be 'a bit aggressive and legal' would be most counter-productive, as aggressivity would be displaced and the OP simply does not have a legal argument to put forward here. EC261/2004 is relatively clear in the OP's case: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML the airline must offer reimbursement or rerouting to the final destination under comparable condition at the earliest opportunity or at a later date subject to the availability of seats. There is absolutely no mention of needing to offer rerouting to/from other destinations. No compensation due if cancellation has been notified two weeks before departure time. I also don't think your reading of the Montreal convention is correct. It deals with delays, not with cancellations. I'm not aware of anyone having ever made the suggestion that articles 19 and 22 should apply when an airline changes its schedule or cancels some flights months in advance and would be immensely surprised if such an argument convinced a court.

EC261/2004 is relatively clear in the OP's case: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML the airline must offer reimbursement or rerouting to the final destination under comparable condition at the earliest opportunity or at a later date subject to the availability of seats.

Then they should reroute the passenger on LH via FRA leaving at 13:00 arriving CDG at 21:30 or to wherever is the OP final destination on the ticket that includes HKG AF CDG, since this is the earliest opportunity. If AF does not want to rebook at the earliest possibility on LH, the OP and AF can negotiate and eventually can claim damages for delay.

The Montreal convention is not about flight delays but about "delay in the carriage by air of passengers". If the cancellation of a flight results in no delay in the carriage by air of the passenger to its final destination, then it does not apply. The cancellation here is not due to force majeur => carrier is liable for damage resulting of delay, up to around 5000 EUR. An airline cannot force a passenger to depart earlier than scheduled departure time but can kindly propose it.

After mentioning this, AF will hopefully understand they'd better change the origin, even if they are not obliged to do so, as it is a reasonable way to avoid the damage due to delay. If they refuse, they must put the passenger on the first flight, meaning LH, and bear financial consequences of potential delay on arrival.

AF cancels the flight => AF needs to make up for that, they are the ones to blame! Once you have a reservation and a ticket for a flight, you cannot just keep your life unplanned for 7 days before or after just in case the airline cancels the flight!

My understanding of EU regulation, if they notify you 2 weeks in advance, and offer you an alternative flight within a reasonable delay, they have strictly no obligation to offer you a flight on another company. It would only amount to a commercial gesture, nothing else

The LH Flight could bring me home same day (Destination -> BRE) but I am not sure if they have to book me on this flight:

Regulation (EC) No 261/2004
Cancellation
1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:
(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and
(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and
(c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless:
(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or
(ii) they are informed of the cancellation between two weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than two hours before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival; or
(iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.
2. When passengers are informed of the cancellation, an explanation shall be given concerning possible alternative transport.
3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
4. The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier.

You see at (ii) that they are only have to transport me within a short period if they cancel the flight within two weeks before departure. This is not the case. But maybe this could help:

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,
- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

Earliest opportunity on a AF flight or earliest opportunity on any flight?

Then they should reroute the passenger on LH via FRA leaving at 13:00 arriving CDG at 21:30 or to wherever is the OP final destination on the ticket that includes HKG AF CDG, since this is the earliest opportunity"should" as in what? moral duty or legal obligation? as to moral duty, I would agree with you. As to legal obligations, see below.

From EU rules:
"you can choose an alternative flight (airlines call this re-routing) to your final destination as soon as possible, or"Incidentally, what you quoting from is not the text of the rules but, anyway, the rules specify that you are entitled to routing to your final destination in comparable transport conditions "at the earliest opportunity". "at the earliest opportunity" is not defined anywhere in the Regulation. The Regulation, in particular, does not specify whether this should be understood as meaning re-routing on any airline or re-routing on the airline's own services only. All airlines, afaik, interpret this as creating an obligation to re-route at the earliest opportunity on their own services only (surprise, surprise). They consider that any rerouting on an alternative carrier is not a legal obligation on them but entirely at their discretion. They may or may not be right but I am not aware of any authoritative caselaw either way. If you know any, please do let us know.
As far as AF is concerned, IME there is a direct correlation between fare paid and willingness to reroute on alternative carriers: on cheap fares, they will refuse point blank unless the delay is of several days. In higher fare buckets, they are more flexible.


=> Montreal convention kicks in. You can then get your damages refunded (with a limit of around 4000 EUR I think) since AF had not taken any reasonable measures that could have avoided these costs, here to book you on AF BKK CDG: it is their own flight!The Montreal Convention does provide for damages in case of delay in transportation but does not define what should be regarded as a delay in transportation. It does not, in particular, define whether a sked change or flight cancellation in advance and consequential change to the ticket should be regarded as a delay in transportation within the meaning of the Convention when the airline reserves the right to alter its schedules.

As I stated earlier, the OP might have legal redress depending on how customer friendly the jurisdiction concerned is but it is a speculative route.

Blaming the OP for booking long in advance flights on separate ticket.. well, that is the aviation business that is flawed: you cannot always put on the same ticket 2 consecutive fares, some fares require purchase in some countries, prohibits sales in others, some are not combinable, etc. It's a mess, and it is not the OP's fault. Booking a 12 hours connection is very reasonable, even for long haul flights. I don't "do" blame on such things. FWIW, I find the legal environment on the whole unconscionably biased towards the airlines but that is besides the point. But all the moral indignation in the world will not affect the OP's legal position and entitlements except in the never-never land of just deserts.

I regularly have fairly complex connections on multiple tickets so I know what it is like and I certainly would not blame anybody for doing that. However, being realistic means that it would be foolish when doing that not to consider the possibility of one of your flight being cancelled and ask yourself: "what then?"

I do not think it is good advice to tell people: "well don't worry. You have the moral high ground and therefore the airline will sort you out". You are experienced enough to know that this is not the case and that in those kinds of situations you may have to fight and there is absolutely no guarantee that you will win such a fight.

I am not averse to asserting my rights with airlines but I will certainly take steps to lower the opportunity of such fights and plan accordingly. I will also balance out the cost in terms of hassle and time spent with the potential loss.

"should" as in what? moral duty or legal obligation? as to moral duty, I would agree with you. As to legal obligations, see below.

Incidentally, what you quoting from is not the text of the rules but, anyway, the rules specify that you are entitled to routing to your final destination in comparable transport conditions "at the earliest opportunity". "at the earliest opportunity" is not defined anywhere in the Regulation. The Regulation, in particular, does not specify whether this should be understood as meaning re-routing on any airline or re-routing on the airline's own services only. All airlines, afaik, interpret this as creating an obligation to re-route at the earliest opportunity on their own services only (surprise, surprise). They consider that any rerouting on an alternative carrier is not a legal obligation on them but entirely at their discretion. They may or may not be right but I am not aware of any authoritative caselaw either way. If you know any, please do let us know.
As far as AF is concerned, IME there is a direct correlation between fare paid and willingness to reroute on alternative carriers: on cheap fares, they will refuse point blank unless the delay is of several days. In higher fare buckets, they are more flexible.


The Montreal Convention does provide for damages in case of delay in transportation but does not define what should be regarded as a delay in transportation. It does not, in particular, define whether a sked change or flight cancellation in advance and consequential change to the ticket should be regarded as a delay in transportation within the meaning of the Convention when the airline reserves the right to alter its schedules.

As I stated earlier, the OP might have legal redress depending on how customer friendly the jurisdiction concerned is but it is a speculative route.

I don't "do" blame on such things. FWIW, I find the legal environment on the whole unconscionably biased towards the airlines but that is besides the point. But all the moral indignation in the world will not affect the OP's legal position and entitlements except in the never-never land of just deserts.

I regularly have fairly complex connections on multiple tickets so I know what it is like and I certainly would not blame anybody for doing that. However, being realistic means that it would be foolish when doing that not to consider the possibility of one of your flight being cancelled and ask yourself: "what then?"

I do not think it is good advice to tell people: "well don't worry. You have the moral high ground and therefore the airline will sort you out". You are experienced enough to know that this is not the case and that in those kinds of situations you may have to fight and there is absolutely no guarantee that you will win such a fight.

I am not averse to asserting my rights with airlines but I will certainly take steps to lower the opportunity of such fights and plan accordingly. I will also balance out the cost in terms of hassle and time spent with the potential loss.

I think NickB summarises the situation extremely well. The other advantage of having a clear sense of the legal background (notwithstanding uncertainties and grey areas that are plentiful) is to allow for the OP to make an informed decision on what 'tone' to choose. You mention being quite 'aggressive' and quite 'legalistic' but personally, I'd only choose this tone when I'm sure of my legal right which wouldn't be the case if I were in the OP's situation. BY contrast, when I find my situation to be uncertain, I'll always prefer a conciliatory tone and 'ask for a favour' rather than 'try to negotiate'. It might be a personal thing but for me it works the same in reverse - if I am in a strong position and someone asks me to do a favour and help, I'll usually try to if it is something I can do. If I am in a strong position and the person who is not tries to negotiate, you can bet I won't bulge as their attitude would come across (rightly or wrongly) as arrogant to me. And just to confirm, I really don't think anyone is blaming the OP, quite the contrary, many of us have expressed genuine sympathy for what he is experiencing - we're just trying to give our (imperfect) opinion on what we believe to be his 'formal' entitlements so that he knows whether what he is asking is more likely to be a legal right or a favour.

With all due respect, I find this thread about a flight canceled several months ahead to be an overkill. Airlines periodically adjust their schedule. In the past few months most airlines have reduced their future capacity due to the economic slowdown, especially to/from Europe. The situation might be a bit more difficult for pax whose flights are canceled with a very short notice, but here we are talking about a couple of months (maybe even the winter schedule). There must be hundred of thousands of pax affected. Unfortunate yes, but normal in the industry.
We have no indication on the exact itin and possible changes in connections in CDG or elsewhere, but AF seems to have done what it should have done, i.e. offer a flight ten hours earlier or a refund. One can be unhappy that there is an economic slowdown and reduction in flight frequency, but that's life. We all feel sympathy for the OP who had landed a magnificent deal (probably because of the low loads) and now gets disturbed in his travel plan. But I do not see any ground the OP could use to negotiate further. NickB and Orbitmic have summarized the legal background.

With all due respect, I find this thread about a flight canceled several months ahead to be an overkill....but AF seems to have done what it should have done, i.e. offer a flight ten hours earlier or a refund....I do not see any ground the OP could use to negotiate further.

One man's overkill is another's understated!

AF should offer the OP re-routing at the earliest opportunity (following the cancellation time) or at a later date at the passenger's convenience, which AF hasn't (yet) done.

You might not see the wood for the trees but it does indeed matter to the OP. You might care to remember this next time you are in unfamiliar territory (figuratively-speaking) and require some assistance!

One man's overkill is another's understated!

AF should offer the OP re-routing at the earliest opportunity (following the cancellation time) or at a later date at the passenger's convenience, which AF hasn't (yet) done.

You might not see the wood for the trees but it does indeed matter to the OP. You might care to remember this next time you are in unfamiliar territory (figuratively-speaking) and require some assistance!

The assistance we can provide the OP on this forum is not to offer another flight, but to tell him what is realistic and what is not. We all sympathize about the 7 hour wait in CDG created by the change of schedule, but AF offers to rebook on the previous or following flight. The OP can hardly expect more.

One man's overkill is another's understated!

AF should offer the OP re-routing at the earliest opportunity (following the cancellation time) or at a later date at the passenger's convenience, which AF hasn't (yet) done.


:confused: ??? So what exactly leads you to assert that? (1) When the ticket is booked through a travel agent, it is for the travel agent to organise the rerouting, (2) AF (through expedia) offered rerouting at the earliest opportunity (nowhere does it say 'after the cancellation time' typically one simply goes for the nearest time be it before or after), which was the night before. (3) in the case of flight cancellations, AF provides travel agents with 'commercial instructions' which details what is and is not allowed. I have not checked the specific instructions for this particular trip, but AF commercial instructions for flights which are cancelled or significantly changed in timings tend to always be more or less the same - and happen to be some of the most generous in the industry. Typically: a) reroute at the earliest opportunity in the same booking class or if not available in the same transport class, b) rerouting on KL or DL in the same transport class if preferred, c) report within 30 days before or after departure date in the same booking class, d) full refund. This again (and notably the changes within a full month) go well beyond the airline's regulatory obligation AF is under. We know that the OP asked for something which is outside of these (fairly generous) AF offers and his request was declined. He was offered rerouting at the earliest opportunity which does not work well for him and I have no doubt that if he asks somethng else within the realm of AF commercial instructions (e.g. to be flown on the next day in the same travel class, or any day within a month before or after which has the same booking class available or to be reimbursed) he will be obliged. AF has fulfilled every single one of its regulatory obligations as far as I can see, and it is now for the OP's travel agent - as per industry dominant practice (point taken earlier than some airlines are exception) to advise him on what is/is not allowed. What the OP wanted (rerouting) is not allowed but there are, effectively, plenty of options and consistently with its regulatory obligations, AF has communicated with the OP's travel agent to advise them on all of them.

:confused: ??? So what exactly leads you to assert that? (1) When the ticket is booked through a travel agent, it is for the travel agent to organise the rerouting, (2) AF (through expedia) offered rerouting at the earliest opportunity (nowhere does it say 'after the cancellation time' typically one simply goes for the nearest time be it before or after), which was the night before. (3) in the case of flight cancellations, AF provides travel agents with 'commercial instructions' which details what is and is not allowed. I have not checked the specific instructions for this particular trip, but AF commercial instructions for flights which are cancelled or significantly changed in timings tend to always be more or less the same - and happen to be some of the most generous in the industry. Typically: a) reroute at the earliest opportunity in the same booking class or if not available in the same transport class, b) rerouting on KL or DL in the same transport class if preferred, c) report within 30 days before or after departure date in the same booking class, d) full refund. This again (and notably the changes within a full month) go well beyond the airline's regulatory obligation AF is under. We know that the OP asked for something which is outside of these (fairly generous) AF offers and his request was declined. He was offered rerouting at the earliest opportunity which does not work well for him and I have no doubt that if he asks somethng else within the realm of AF commercial instructions (e.g. to be flown on the next day in the same travel class, or any day within a month before or after which has the same booking class available or to be reimbursed) he will be obliged. AF has fulfilled every single one of its regulatory obligations as far as I can see, and it is now for the OP's travel agent - as per industry dominant practice (point taken earlier than some airlines are exception) to advise him on what is/is not allowed. What the OP wanted (rerouting) is not allowed but there are, effectively, plenty of options and consistently with its regulatory obligations, AF has communicated with the OP's travel agent to advise them on all of them.
c) is definitely not fully compliant, As centipede100 noted, in addition to earliest opportunity rerouting, the airline must also offer rerouting at a later date of the passenger's choosing. However, they may impose availability constraints in that case (in other words: same booking class). Limiting it to 30 days either side has no basis in the regulation.

Not that this is of much relevance here, as it would not really help the OP.

It was not my plan to make a big thing of it, sorry. If there is no other way I will ask them to book me on klm which has a shorter overlay in Ams for the same evening. my plan was to stay at the airport, not in a hotel, and then take the morning flight. now I have to go to the city and stay in a hotel. I booked this ticket to safe money, now I have to pay a extra hotel night, transport to city....... Not a big deal, I have the money, but in this way the routing over hkg didn't save me much money. but of course there is no special to bkk now, so to cancel wouldn't help.

c) is definitely not fully compliant, As centipede100 noted, in addition to earliest opportunity rerouting, the airline must also offer rerouting at a later date of the passenger's choosing.

So do you take the 'at a later date' to mean 'at any later date without limit'? (genuine question). Or would an airline be able to set a 'reasonable limit'? I wouldn't have said it was obvious either way but maybe the unlimited version is what the institution meant. I also take 'rebooking at a later date at the passenger's convenience' to mean that if it is more convenient to the passenger (s)he has the right to fly at a later date rather than at the earliest possibility but wouldn't necessarily (in my reading) imply 'at (any) later date of the passenger's choosing' but again it equally would be conceivable to say that since the regulation doesn't specify any limitation maybe it should be any time in the future, but I wonder if there is any case which has pushed airlines on that. OT but the more I think of it, the more I think that this regulation has been rather poorly crafted. I still don't understand why it formally offers rerouting at a later date but not at an earlier one for instance. And I still think it should have specified if valid reroutings should include those on other airlines or just the airline's own.

So do you take the 'at a later date' to mean 'at any later date without limit'? (genuine question). Or would an airline be able to set a 'reasonable limit'? I wouldn't have said it was obvious either way but maybe the unlimited version is what the institution meant. I also take 'rebooking at a later date at the passenger's convenience' to mean that if it is more convenient to the passenger (s)he has the right to fly at a later date rather than at the earliest possibility but wouldn't necessarily (in my reading) imply 'at (any) later date of the passenger's choosing' but again it equally would be conceivable to say that since the regulation doesn't specify any limitation maybe it should be any time in the future, but I wonder if there is any case which has pushed airlines on that. OT but the more I think of it, the more I think that this regulation has been rather poorly crafted. I still don't understand why it formally offers rerouting at a later date but not at an earlier one for instance. And I still think it should have specified if valid reroutings should include those on other airlines or just the airline's own.

I am sure that one must read a reasonable limit into that. I doubt that you could come back in 50 years' time, for instance, to claim your flight.

It seems to me 100% clear, however, that the Reg does not give the airline to arbitrarily define a limit of 30 days. There is not a single word in the Reg to suggest that nor anything in the spirit or economy of the Reg to suggest that.

I can see how, for instance, how a reasonable interpretation of the Reg might require the pax to rebook now-ish (i.e. when they exercise the option to go for a rebooking in the future rather than refund or rebooking at earliest opportunity) and therefore be limited to the period between the flight and the end of schedule, so typically up to 330 ahead.

But that is a totally different thing from the airline itself arbitrarily setting a 30 days limit. That I do not see any basis for in the Reg.

hi. i booked a ticket from europe to hongkong on af, will travel in a couple of month. now i saw that they changed the timetable for this destination, so my return flight is canceled and they force me to get on the plane a half day before (original booked time was 10:50am, they changed it to 11:35pm the day before). they only have this 11:35pm flight anymore, so they only offered me to take another day or cancel the whole trip.
I asked them to change the booking to BKK instead of HKG, because this is the destination I will be before take a flight from BKK to HKG and fly back to europe and there would be a 10:50am flight to paris. They refused this, only want to allow me a date chance, not a airport chance. Is this legal?

They are not obliged to change the routing destination but if you can perhaps speak to a Supervisor and say that you would like to change the return as an open-jaw. ie fly into HK and out of BKK. It may trigger a different rate to the one you've paid (it might even be cheaper) and tell them that due to the change in timings from the original flight, this is the only way you can get home. Otherwise opt for thm to put you on KLM departing from HK instead.

Was this weekend at a airport with a AirFrance Ticket Desk. They told me AF would never change the routing but it shouldn't be a problem to get on the KLM flight instead of the AF flight if I call Expedia again. So, will still be at home 12 hours to late but dont have to wait long 8 hours in CDG, only half the time in AMS.

Please let us know how you get on with Expedia armed with that information.

(It's always good to hear how the stories reported here pan out).

This is what ticks me off about airlines.

If the OP had some kind of situation where he had to move his flight by half a day, the airline would charge him, either an arm and a leg if the flight was on a different day (and goodness, if he was going to leave at 10:50PM and intstead had to leave at 12:05AM that's a different day.), or perhaps just a couple of fingers if the same day.

But when they decide to change the flight, they just say "eh, so go when we tell you, or go p*** up a rope." Perhaps at the time he booked, AF had a promotion but maybe other airlines did too.

It's not like he's asking to change his departure airport from MUC to BKK.

I think they should bend over backwards to accomodate him. He bought a ticket in good faith. I'm not saying AF has to charter a plane just for him. But they should do anything reasonable and possible to make it good for him.

A few years ago my wife was flying YYZ-ATL-JAX and there was bad weather, they cancelled my wife's seat, it was at least partly their fault, as they did give her a $200 voucher. Everything the next day was sold out, and when I called them I just asked if they could rebook her the following day YYZ-ATL-MCO. They were very cooperative.

But JAX is in the same country like MCO, maybe this will make my wish to a problem for them.

A few years ago my wife was flying YYZ-ATL-JAX and there was bad weather, they cancelled my wife's seat, it was at least partly their fault, as they did give her a $200 voucher. Everything the next day was sold out, and when I called them I just asked if they could rebook her the following day YYZ-ATL-MCO. They were very cooperative.

There is a big difference between a flight that is retimed months before its departure date and an IRROPs on the day. In the latter case, airport agents typically have more power to use discretion. In the case of your wife, the fact that no next day routing was available probably also made a huge difference and encouraged them to indeed do that.

Even in the case of last minute IRROPS, much has to do with the agent handling your case. I have had problems with IRROPS on DL where I was flying JFK-FRA in J with them with an FRA-NCE on LH five hours later. DL's flight was delayed by more than 5 hours due to a mechanical (= their fault legally) but they refused to rebook all the way to Nice. I missed my new flight and was most grateful that the LH people in Frankfurt accepted to rebook me for free despite it not being their fault at all! The same happened on another DL FRA-JFK in J again with a separate JFK-LAX with UA.

So in short, an airline's obligation is always to carry you from point A to point B and if you want them to do anything more than that you rely on their good will, which means both uncertainty and discretion. The more dramatic your case (IRROPS happens on the day, it is the airline's fault, other flights are full and rerouting would be much later) and the more 'important' a passenger you are (theoretically at least, high tier on the airline's own FFP - don't count on any alliance benefit - flying business or first, etc) the more likely they are to be sympathetic. In the case of the OP, while again, I don't disagree that it would have been nice of AF to say 'sure, why not?', it is certainly not an obligation and as the time change has been just a few hours and notified several weeks in advance, the odds that they would be helpful were always low.

Talked 90 Minutes with Expedia now. They called AF several times but AF dont want to put me on the KLM flight. They offer only two things:


Money back
Book me to another date on a AF flight


Because they let me no choice I taked the AF flight that will depart in the late night at my original booked dates. So I have to stay the whole day in HKG and I have to stay long 8 hours in Paris. Will be at home around 20 hours later then original booked, with a worse stop over time :td:

Talked 90 Minutes with Expedia now. They called AF several times but AF dont want to put me on the KLM flight. They offer only two things:


Money back
Book me to another date on a AF flight


Because they let me no choice I taked the AF flight that will depart in the late night at my original booked dates. So I have to stay the whole day in HKG and I have to stay long 8 hours in Paris. Will be at home around 20 hours later then original booked, with a worse stop over time :td:

In such cases it doesen't help to have a ticket through an agent. I guess you settles your case, but whenever I am getting less than my expected result I hang up and call back at a later time. They shoiuld have been able to put you on the KL flight, at least as an AF codeshare.

I guess you settles your case, but whenever I am getting less than my expected result I hang up and call back at a later time.

This wouldnt help. The agent called AF several times but all agents and also the supervisor he speak with, disagreed to put me on the flight from bkk and also disagreed to give me the KL flight. They only offered another AF flight with a long transfer time.

If you getting there early would still be better even if this is a plan changed at the last minute, then I would ask again at the AF airport counter at HKG on the day. Sometimes, airline counters can do things on the day which go beyond the help phone people do offer, and on the day, the airline will typically be ok retaking control of a ticket that 'belongs' to a travel agent. I certainly agree it sounds absurd not to offer the KLM rerouting and I'm a bit puzzled at what conversation took place exactly between the expedia and af people as AF, KL, and on many itineraries DL routings are normally part of the standard, published, rerouting possibility.

I could try that, at least I am flying blue silver now, so maybe this would help a little. But I dont want to sit on a middle seat for such a long flight so I think there is almost no chance to get on the earlier KLM flight.

I could try that, at least I am flying blue silver now, so maybe this would help a little. But I dont want to sit on a middle seat for such a long flight so I think there is almost no chance to get on the earlier KLM flight.I would probably not be overly hopeful on this one. Orbitmic is right that airport agents have more flexibility and he is also right that one would have expected AF to accept a rerouting on KL (not being able to communicate directly and therefore being at the mercy of the competence and determination of the TA is one of the disadvantages, or sometimes advantages, of using a TA), the flexibility of airport agents is largely based on there being an irrop to deal with there and then. If the issue has already been solved weeks or months in advance by changing the reservation, the hands of desk agents at the airport are, IME, rather tied.

I would probably not be overly hopeful on this one. Orbitmic is right that airport agents have more flexibility and he is also right that one would have expected AF to accept a rerouting on KL (not being able to communicate directly and therefore being at the mercy of the competence and determination of the TA is one of the disadvantages, or sometimes advantages, of using a TA), the flexibility of airport agents is largely based on there being an irrop to deal with there and then. If the issue has already been solved weeks or months in advance by changing the reservation, the hands of desk agents at the airport are, IME, rather tied.

Very true - I was sort of hoping for the op that AF wouldn't have documented the dialogue/refusals and the agents would thus only see the original routing and first and only rerouting and accept to amend it. There have been times when I was (genuinely) not alerted to flight changes till I arrived at the airport (OLCI would not work as ticket had not even been correctly revalidated) and could typically be put on an earlier flight (if I was on time for it) rather than wait for the one originally rebooked without my knowing/checking.

Now Expedia shows the new connection:


Your flight from Paris to Hong Kong is now arriving 0 hour(s) and 5 minute(s) later than before.
Your flight from Hong Kong to Paris is now leaving 12 hour(s) and 45 minute(s) later than before.
Your flight from Hong Kong to Paris is now arriving 12 hour(s) and 35 minute(s) later than before.
Your flight from Paris to Bremen is now leaving 17 hour(s) and 25 minute(s) later than before.
Your flight from Paris to Bremen is now arriving 17 hour(s) and 25 minute(s) later than before.


Inbound: Total duration: 13hr 15mn (18hr 5mn with connections)
Outbound: Total duration: 14hr 30mn (22hr 0mn with connections)

:( Case closed.