United MileagePlus (Consolidated) - Are UA's PVG and PEK flights really that bad?

UA 858 6/22:

11:15AM - take seat.
12:10PM - scheduled departure time.
12:30PM - captain says plane missing a valve. Continue reading Steve Jobs biography on iPhone wishing I had brought a better reading device.
1:15PM - captain announces they are still looking for one, ground/local crew says they should be able to find it within 30 min and then it takes another 30 min to install, plus refueling.
2:15PM - SAME message... Captain clearly frustrated too and doesn't understand. As we're all starving, flight attendants tell us to sit down and pass us our original mid-flight snacks.
3:15PM - 4 hours later we're told flight is cancelled and we're going back to gate. Atlas Air has the valve BUT due to a customs policy they can't give it to us. Um!!?????
3:20PM - No gates avail and so we'll have to deplane ourselves and bus back to the gate (it's raining). Um!!????
3:25PM - oh wait! A gate opened up. But we have to be towed back (uh what exactly was the missing valve?...)

Time passes. There are NO more flights headed to the West Coast tonight (even indirect) and it's summer anyway so everything's booked.

We get into more lines (go thru customs again as our departure stamps are no longer valid), fret about whether we're actually going to be on the next day's flight (will there be 2 planes? As UA 858 the next day is fully booked too...?) get our hotel vouchers, get over getting miffed United is not giving us a voucher for future travel... Mass confusion everywhere.

6:00PM - get onto shuttle bus (would have been later if I actually had to re-collect luggage) while hoping the airport hotel they're sending us to at least has a broadband connection...
6:30PM - where the heck are we? Have never been taken to a hotel SO far away from the airport...
6:45PM - shocked at what a "nice"-ish looking (4-star??!) hotel we've been taken to. Super weird. It's 9 hours since I left my hotel this morning for PVG.

6/23

12:45 PM - We are obviously not leaving at 1:30PM as the plane isn't even at the gate. Agitated demands to see a manager near counter begin to be heard. An announcement is made that the flight is now delayed to 2:30PM.

Starting at 1:00PM - The head captain comes out and basically he says he can't justify what's happening but he can tell us the truth. Which basically means that isn't what we had been getting. Basically no one can really help because United has no actual decision making personnel in Shanghai. The part they installed last night did not fix the problem when the pilots checked the plane at 11 this morning. US guys (there is no ground crew either; it's all done remotely with cameras and such) recommended another part which Pudong had (without us needing to go thru customs) and pilots were about to test. However, legal time for flight attendants will probably run out by time pilots return (estimated 30 min). Captains tell us they need 10 flight attendants to fly the plane but don't think enough will be willing (basically becomes a volunteer basis).

Meanwhile everyone traveling on business is calling their travel agents only to learn there are practically no other seats out of Pudong to US today and if there are Global Services is snatching them up. Captains tell us there are 10 seats out of all of Pudong to US left partly due to a Newark-bound flight that was cancelled earlier in the day (another United flight of course). People are very very upset. Local counter staff are totally useless as they aren't even United employees. Until UA formally cancels flight in system their travel agents have hands a bit tied when it comes to putting them on another flight and time is running out. I call AMEX.

1:45 PM I contact my manager, concerned I won't be able to reach AMEX as I waited >45 min yesterday unsuccessfully. I don't even know how I would book my own new flight tho.

2:30PM - Reach AMEX and they start searching. (my total international call time ends up being more than 1 hour). Captain comes back with report that new part does not work. So flight will be canceled again and those who cannot get out (anyone on personal travel basically) will have to stay another night at the hotel with dinner fare that one traveler (apparently a Mexico City journalist who has already threatened she is going to write about this and UA will be sorry) called dogfood!

AMEX finds me one thru HKG costing $2K. We book it. I exit boarding area and now have two cancelled departure stamps in my passport! Expect to land at SFO 10PM Saturday. Fingers crossed.

6:15PM: In HKG.


And this episode happened to one of my SH friends visiting me on UA 857:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-21/travel/travel_alaska-passengers-stranded_1_passengers-united-airlines-flight-mechanical-problems?_s=PM%3ATRAVEL

Are these flights just more incident-prone than others? (perhaps because the competition, mainland Chinese carriers aren't much better?)

There have been more mechanical issues reported on FT in the past few months with UA/CO than what I have come across for a long time on any airline. Sorry to hear about your travails with UA/CO.

Well, my PVG-SFO flight a couple of months ago was cancelled, and I was notified via email.

When I called, they told me they don't show it cancelled. This even though seatmap showed everything wide open the day before, and no seats that day, and unitedcargo.com showed flight as cancelled.

After much research Plat line determined the flight was indeed cancelled, at which point connection was lost (not sure whose fault since I was calling from China, but know for sure I didn't hang up).

Another call, another agent, again it's not cancelled. Again later determined it is, and they start looking for a way to get me home before we get disconnected.

Third call prodeces astonishment that I am not aware that I'm booked on Air China to KIX and from there on UA to SFO :rolleyes: :confused:

Guess I'm lucky I didn't lose any more vacation time as my reroute was on same date as original return journey.

Oh, and they rerouted me to DFW, DAL's co-terminal as there was no way to get me to my departing airport :mad:

EmailKid

I'd be interested in learning if the flights to and from EWR are the same. I'm debating taking the flight from PEK to EWR

I have been flying EWR-PEK and occationally EWR-PVG fly by CO crews for years, and have been happy with them. While I really prefer the 3-3-3 777 seating, I am sure other prefer the legacy 2-4-2 seating. Seems to have more leg room, but don't know that for sure. I have generally been happy with them. Don't recall any being delayed.

Pre 3/3, I flew one UA flight out of SFO for PEK, and sure enough, my connection from LAX was delayed on the tarmac into SFO due to weather, and they did not hold my PEK flight for me (not too surprised, as UA has a flight and hub in NRT with lost of spare seats post tsunami, so I was 0 for 1 on UA to PEK as far as a smooth connection.

I'd be interested in learning if the flights to and from EWR are the same. I'm debating taking the flight from PEK to EWR

That would be the PMCO 777, which I believe is newer, so should be fewer problems.

OTOH, same contract ground staff in Beijing, so if things start to go south ....

Didn't have any problems with my flight back from PEK last year (first week in December), though the airport was closed the day after my flight due to smog .... er, poor visibility, since officially there's nothing wrong with Beijing air :rolleyes:

Oh, not sure these birds have E+ yet, though another one is scheduled to come back in service today.

EmailKid

Not sure what UA could have done better. MX happens and it doesn't always get fixed the first time at an out-station.

Not sure your corporate TA is up to the task. Shouldn't be that hard to rebook you, presuming any availability, shouldn't be hard to reach your own corp. TA and unless your reroute was ridiculous, should not be any add/collect.

Sympathies to the OP. I had a very similar experience last December trying to get out of PEK. The previous day's flight to SFO was cancelled for MX. When maintenance couldn't repair the plane by the following day, those passengers were accommodated on "our" aircraft. (Actually, maintenance presented the aircraft as repaired, but the pilots told us the problems remained.) After two days, and two planeloads of pissed-off passengers, we finally left for SFO.

Yes, maintenance issues happen. I don't think that anyone expects otherwise. But their frequency and severity (e.g. cancelled flights, missed connections) is what many find unacceptable.

Marc

I'd be interested in learning if the flights to and from EWR are the same. I'm debating taking the flight from PEK to EWR

This is a very nice flight. Most of the other routes are crap PMUA equipment, this one is proper business class seating on a PMCO 777. I have taken this flight recently and it is quite acceptable.

I have taken this flight recently and it is quite acceptable.

Does it have E+?

Sympathies to the OP. I had a very similar experience last December trying to get out of PEK. The previous day's flight to SFO was cancelled for MX. When maintenance couldn't repair the plane by the following day, those passengers were accommodated on "our" aircraft. (Actually, maintenance presented the aircraft as repaired, but the pilots told us the problems remained.) After two days, and two planeloads of pissed-off passengers, we finally left for SFO.

Yes, maintenance issues happen. I don't think that anyone expects otherwise. But their frequency and severity (e.g. cancelled flights, missed connections) is what many find unacceptable.

Marc

I have yet to fly a ticket without MX since the merger ... yes, every single PNR! 65k this year and not one of them w/o issues. It's not pretty.

Does it have E+?

I am not sure, I was in C.

That would be the PMCO 777, which I believe is newer, so should be fewer problems.

OTOH, same contract ground staff in Beijing, so if things start to go south ....

Didn't have any problems with my flight back from PEK last year (first week in December), though the airport was closed the day after my flight due to smog .... er, poor visibility, since officially there's nothing wrong with Beijing air :rolleyes:

Oh, not sure these birds have E+ yet, though another one is scheduled to come back in service today.

EmailKid

True about the delays and smog, as well as other irregular ops at PEK, things can get bad. My last flight had its door closed but sat at the gate for two hours due to "bad weather" The rain was light, but they said ATC was holding up everything.

Chinese airports in general (PEK no exception) have various issues. My previous DL flight from NRT to PEK was also held at the gate (door closed) for about two hours due to bad weather midway in the route. It was implied that it was due to ATC (PEK I assume), but maybe DL wanted to save fuel in case it had to circle, as it was scheduled to arrive 22:00, so no one had to worry about missed connections, so landing at 00:00 would have a small impact on anyone that had a onward connection (besides less sleeping time).

I'd be interested in learning if the flights to and from EWR are the same. I'm debating taking the flight from PEK to EWR

PEK i don't know about but i only fly UA to asia on the PMCO 772 birds and i typically fly either to NRT (to get to ICN), PVG and flew to HKG recently. for years i've never had any MX delays on these. always left on time and arrived a few minutes early. unless there's anything significantly different in PEK than PVG i can't imagine it'll be all that different of an experience.

i actually like the PMCO 772s. they're relatively newer and while an F cabin would be neat, BF seats still get me there rested.

if AA gets their upcoming 773's flying to asia though i might have to re-evaulate though.

Atlas Air has the valve BUT due to a customs policy they can't give it to us.
Maybe Atlas needed an export license. If UA MX pays for the part from an office outside China, it is an export.

Not sure your corporate TA is up to the task.
May have to do with fare restrictions too. Our CTMs are told to look for alternatives to avoid overnight stays in situations like this, but it helps all our tickets are fully refundable. No hotel shuttle, good bye UA, hello OZ, KE, SQ, etc... Not everyone can though.

This is a very nice flight. Most of the other routes are crap PMUA equipment, this one is proper business class seating on a PMCO 777. I have taken this flight recently and it is quite acceptable.

What "CRAP" PMUA aircraft are you talking about. With the exception of the few 777's that still have those horrible barcaloungers, the PMUA 747's and 777 's have a much much better AVOD then the PMCO aircraft. The UA planes have E+ if your stuck back in Y, CO has not put that on the 777's yet, UA has GF which is MUCH better then BF. As far as the seats in C. Some people prefer the CO 2-2-2, some prefer the UA flat seats as there is more room for your feet. The only thing "crap" about the PMUA aircraft are the middle seats but thats easy to work around, don't sit in one!!
** the only "CRAP" planes in the international fleet are the pmCO 757's in TATL flights. Besides the fact that it's a small plane, not intended for 8 hour flights, I have read more reports of broken AVOD on this AC then any othrt

To each his own

Are these flights just more incident-prone than others? (perhaps because the competition, mainland Chinese carriers aren't much better?)

Chinese carriers, at least in Y, are not a very good alternative IMHO. Their seats are cramped, AVOD is often subpar, etc. At least from what I can tell.

Part of the problem is that, in China, the ground crew for UA isn't very good. They used, however, to be better than this under PMUA. Securing an upgrade? Yes sir! Now, because of the different operating policies, this time is gone for good, I am afraid. Everything is always decided at the gate among the chaos reigning supreme there.

I was in PVG just a few days ago. They never called me - despite the fact I actually got upgraded. Not in any hurry to answer any customers either, even if there are 4 of them behind the podium, and there is a line of people waiting. Surly service. The boarding process was way, way too complicated - two lines, one where SA 1,3,5 and 7 got in, the other one for SA 2,4,6 and 8. Great idea in theory, in practice it confused the hell out of the masses. Plenty of kettles crowding the boarding area, with boarding agents being totally useless.

Announcements were barely audible. Rather important when the employee has to explain to lots of passengers that the plane is going to make a stop in Seattle. Why? Couldn't make it out. The FA gave us the story once inside.

Another time, they weren't even clear enough to indicate where the lounge was.

All in all, pretty disappointed.

Third call prodeces astonishment that I am not aware that I'm booked on Air China to KIX and from there on UA to SFO :rolleyes: :confused:

There is quite a lot of this "secret rebooking" going on IMHO. The system doesn't notify you of what's been done to you, and it's very difficult to ring in and find out.

I had MX issues on my last two trips home from Asia. Once, PVG (pre-merger) and most recently, HKG (post-merger)...

I was fortunate that in both circumstances, it was an incoming aircraft issue, so I knew about it WAY in advance...So I was able to make my changes not only before I went to the airport, but a day in advance in both cases.

For my PVG delay late last year, I was able to get rebooked onto the LAX flight leaving that night (8PM departure versus noon the next day to SFO). They forced me into F class (was on a paid business fare), using a SWU to F, despite no C seats to 'sell' me into.

For my most recent HKG delay, was scheduled to go to SFO--in upgraded business. Checked online for upgradable options, figured I was stuck, but due to the SHARES glitch, since it was just a hair under 24 hours before my departure, there was 'R' space on every other flight out, including EWR, ORD, and all the way back through NRT. Got on the ORD flight, with a great seat nonetheless. (Later learned I probably most definitely jumped others on the W/L--or lack thereof). The guy who ended up seated next to me was also a 1K who had been pulled up to C just before the doors closed...He said he had already given up hope for an upgrade. My further prodding (I was quite curious) revealed that he and a coworker had been on the upgrade list for a month, and his companion never cleared).

Both times I found out about the delayed inbound only through my proactive checking of flights the day before. While I did eventually get e-mails in both instances, had I waited until UA notified me, I'd have probably been stuck...I do understand that the OP didn't have this luxury--I'm just sharing my experience.

What "CRAP" PMUA aircraft are you talking about.

Oh, how about the 747's that still have no power in economy seats, and no PTV's of any kind in economy, AVOD or not? I could hardly believe it when I found that UA was still flying 747's on flagship routes whose entertainment/electronics offerings have essentially not been updated from what was standard in 1975, other than that the film projector has probably been replaced with a video one.

UA has GF which is MUCH better then BF.

How do you upgrade to those seats from an economy ticket, which a great many business travelers are forced to purchase? Oh that's right, you can't. And, since double upgrades don't happen, and since they won't roll forward C passengers into F in order to accommodate Y->C upgrades, there's even a chance that you'll be stuck in Y, wanting to spend money and miles to get into C, while F seats go out empty or filled with passriders. Great if you're a UA passrider - not so great if you're a revenue passenger.

As far as the seats in C. Some people prefer the CO 2-2-2, some prefer the UA flat seats as there is more room for your feet. The only thing "crap" about the PMUA aircraft are the middle seats but thats easy to work around, don't sit in one!!

Uh, not quite. When traveling alone in a premium cabin, I much prefer a seat that a) has direct aisle access, and b) has no seat that must climb over me to get aisle access. On pmCO 777's, 1/3 of the seats have both those attributes. On pmUA 777's, none of the seats do. And this issue isn't something that can just be ignored if you want to be able to get a full night's sleep without being disturbed.

If I KNOW that I am going to be on an International PMUA 747 or 777, I always book a Marriott(or whatever favorite hotel you have) at the airport for that night and cancel when I see that the flight is truly going to go out.......has saved me the torture of the crap holes the airlines book you into when they cancel. Same when I check the weather and see bad weather headed for the connecting hub.

Crap shoot either way...but at least I have a clean, comfortable place to stay!

I just appended to check the UA 857 for Monday (6-25-2012) and it shows a 5hr 14 minute delay today for"delayed aircraft change).

Oh, how about the 747's that still have no power in economy seats, and no PTV's of any kind in economy, AVOD or not? I could hardly believe it when I found that UA was still flying 747's on flagship routes whose entertainment/electronics offerings have essentially not been updated from what was standard in 1975, other than that the film projector has probably been replaced with a video one.

As I said, to each his own. UA is not the only airline with no PIFE on 747's. Even LH does not have it but many people prefer a 747 to anything flying for TPAC trips. At least it has E+if your stuck in Y. What good is AVOD when it does not even work (getting much more common on pmCO aircraft these days.

How do you upgrade to those seats from an economy ticket, which a great many business travelers are forced to purchase? Oh that's right, you can't. And, since double upgrades don't happen, and since they won't roll forward C passengers into F in order to accommodate Y->C upgrades, there's even a chance that you'll be stuck in Y, wanting to spend money and miles to get into C, while F seats go out empty or filled with passriders. Great if you're a UA passrider - not so great if you're a revenue passenger.

I didn't know "upgrading" was part of the argument. Are you talking about Y or C it the Entire aircraft. I won't pay for F on UA as I will on foreign carriers but I will pay for C (as many others do as well) so I can upgrade to GF. If you pay for C on a pmCO aircraft, that's where you will stay

Uh, not quite. When traveling alone in a premium cabin, I much prefer a seat that a) has direct aisle access, and b) has no seat that must climb over me to get aisle access. On pmCO 777's, 1/3 of the seats have both those attributes. On pmUA 777's, none of the seats do. And this issue isn't something that can just be ignored if you want to be able to get a full night's sleep without being disturbed.

Can't argue with you here. I prefer direct access as well but would still take a 2-4-2 pmUA 747 /777 over a pmCO 757 which I won't get on for free. (Some people prefer 747's for the same reason they won't get on a 757 - I'm one of them) UA has TATL 767's instead of CO's 757's and that has everything you want. 2-2-2 seating in C, better AVOD then pmCO HAS

Like I said, to each his own. I think (hope) you would agree that neither airline has a fleet to be proud of. The 787 (which I don't see the big deal) is being ruined bu CO w 3-3-3 seating (the same seating as a 777 on a plane not as wide). The 787 is no game changer. The A380 is a game changer. People fly Anerican carriers to get from A-B safely and on time w no frills and mediocre service. What's ginna happen now that the new UA are CANCELLING so many flights that they can't even get you from A-B any longer on these "crap" aircraft. And let's face it, regardless of which pm airline you prefer, they both fly "crap" aircraft

This is nothing more than the summer from hell 2000 revisited. only this time it appears some pmco crews are jumping on the bandwagon as well with the xcld pvg-ewr flight...i was on ua977 last friday night that cancelled, options were for monday....i feel bad for those that were put up until then but i was rebooked on DL and now am looking at moving everything over to them.

This is nothing more than the summer from hell 2000 revisited. only this time it appears some pmco crews are jumping on the bandwagon as well with the xcld pvg-ewr flight...i was on ua977 last friday night that cancelled, options were for monday....i feel bad for those that were put up until then but i was rebooked on DL and now am looking at moving everything over to them.

Are you sure it is crew action and not a mechanical issue? If it was crew action, UA/CO management will be all over it in blaming them for everything.

I was on PEK-SFO last December on a 744 and my plane also had a problem, though they were able to get it fixed without having to cancel the flight or go back to the gate or anything like that. We did sit at a remote gate for a while.

The flight was delayed about 2.5 hours due to having to manually start engine number 4, and once that was started, which it seemed to take a while, there was a stuck valve on engine number 3, which took more time to fix.

After the first hour and a half or so, many people that I saw in J on the upper deck were starting to get nervous about missing their onward connections in SFO, and began calling their travel agents and UA to get rebooked. I didn't have status at the time, and I guess could have called 1P line and pretended I was my dad because I had his number, but thought that would be weird talking about "rebooking my son" (myself) for the next flight with all these people around me. So I sent a text to my parents, who were asleep to have me put on a later flight when they woke up. Turns out the next flight they could put me on my connecting UAX flight was the 7pm flight, as the 2pm and 5pm flight was sold out. We arrived in SFO, and I had about an hour to deplane, grab my stuff, run through customs and immigration and get to my connecting UAX flight. That flight turned out to be delayed as well, and I made it with my original seat.

Was so glad I didn't have to wait for the 7pm flight, otherwise I probably would have hired a car and driver to take me home. Sure was annoying, especially because I felt like I couldn't do anything to secure myself on another flight, and I wasnt sure what the procedure was to do so.

But my flights to and from LAX and PVG the summer before (2011) had no issues whatsoever. However I have had other issues and delays on their other 744's out of HKG.