Emirates Skywards - Compensation for an EK flight delay almost a year ago

From reading another thread on here I have realised I should have got cash compensation for a flight we took on EK008 on 3/7/2011 but instead we were fobbed off with 15,000 points after making us wait a full 30 days for an answer.

I wonder if someone could kindly look up (on KVS?) what happened to this flight and what the delay officially was recorded as in order to give me some ammo for my complaint?

(I believe the delay was in the region of 8 hours, possibly longer, we missed the first night in a £320 a night hotel and spent most of the first day of our 4 day holiday sleeping as a result)

I fully intend to go back and insist on the cash compensation if I am entitled to it as this experience left me feeling extremely pissed off with EK and I'm still bitter about it to this day.

(On the positive side, this flight is what triggered me to start looking at points+miles in the first place and I probably would not be on this forum if it wasn't for that flight)

Can I still pursue this after almost a year has gone by and they have already issued points as compensation?

Sympathy? On here?

Well you may be in luck. A delay does not currently attract compensation in the UK, it needs to be a cancellation. However Google "Sturgeon EU travel" and you will see that probably by the end of this year delays of 3 hours are likely to be eligible for compensation, and normally backdated claims will be entertained. Not definite, but the pointers are all in that direction, not least because airlines have tried to muddy the waters between delay and cancellation.

However good luck with EK, I don't think they ever liked these Regulations, and in the reverse direction, DXB to LHR, you wouldn't get a bean. So assuming the airlines' appeal is denied I suspect you'll have to take EK to court to get your loot.

Were the points offered in full and final settlement?

Were the points offered in full and final settlement?

No!

However, in recognition of the inconvenience caused by the flight delay, I have taken the liberty to credit yours and Ms P’ Skywards accounts with 10,000 complimentary miles each. I trust that this will meet your approval.

(Just realised, we have 15,500 each because 5,500 was what we earned for the return flights)

The time to have raised a complaint about your lack of compensation would have been immediately after they offered you 15000 miles. It's reasonable for them to assume after hearing nothing from you for so long that you're happy with being given the miles (some people would be).

Also, did you have insurance and did the insurance pay out anything in order to cover any costs for the inconvenience (I know Amex plat has some generous allowances for meals after a delay) - the insurance company may have tried to recover these costs from the airline already.

I'd say it's not worth the bother to spend too much time on this, send a letter/email/fax saying you think the initial offer was inadequate - mention missing the first night in the hotel and being so tired it affected your enjoyment of the rest of your trip.

Not sure what 15000 EK miles are worth, but BA gave me 20k Avios for something much more insignificant (I didn't even write in to complain I submitted a ba.com/welldone congratulating the staff on the way they managed to minimise the issue and still make it a good flight).

The time to have raised a complaint about your lack of compensation would have been immediately after they offered you 15000 miles. It's reasonable for them to assume after hearing nothing from you for so long that you're happy with being given the miles (some people would be).

Also, did you have insurance and did the insurance pay out anything in order to cover any costs for the inconvenience (I know Amex plat has some generous allowances for meals after a delay) - the insurance company may have tried to recover these costs from the airline already.


I didn't have Amex Plat at the time, the travel insurance we took out did not cover delays and I didn't realise I was entitled to cash compensation until it was brought to my attention now.

10K skywards miles aren't worth very much at all.

Since when is this EK forum? Seriously, we do allow the odd off-topic banter and OT threads, but there is an established EK forum.

I didn't have Amex Plat at the time, the travel insurance we took out did not cover delays and I didn't realise I was entitled to cash compensation until it was brought to my attention now.

10K skywards miles aren't worth very much at all.

Moral of the story: always have good quality insurance.

Also there are grounds whereby you would not be entitled to compensation (French air traffic control strike, for example, not exactly unknown in July), so indeed the precise cause of the delay is pretty much key here.

Despite that I suspect you'll have to go through the Small Claims proceedings even if it is a clear cut case.

At that time, you weren't entitled to any cash compensation due the delay. EK should have provided meals for you at LHR - did this happen?

8 hours is not really that long. If an aircraft goes tech away from its base, then there's not a lot EK could do. They would have offered their elites any empty seats on other flights, but EK tend to be pretty full most of the time.

Also there are grounds whereby you would not be entitled to compensation (French air traffic control strike, for example, not exactly unknown in July), so indeed the precise cause of the delay is pretty much key here.


The reason for the delay was a cracked window. At least that is what we were told.

At that time, you weren't entitled to any cash compensation due the delay. EK should have provided meals for you at LHR - did this happen?

8 hours is not really that long. If an aircraft goes tech away from its base, then there's not a lot EK could do. They would have offered their elites any empty seats on other flights, but EK tend to be pretty full most of the time.

We were given 3 x £15 food vouchers after queuing up for about 1/2 hour, but decided to go back home and come back to the airport later. When we did come back we did not have time to use them so I gave the vouchers to some hungry looking back packers, they were really happy! :D

Panny

When the flight was delayed ex LHR, were you not kept informed in the lounge? You didn't say what class of travel you were in.

15,000 miles is fairly standard as far as EK goes. EK are pretty resilient when it comes to compensation, and being threatened with legal action doesn't really work.

I also can't quite work out why you have taken a year to pursue this? I wouldn't expect any sort of response from EK on this - apart from the standard form letter.

Panny

When the flight was delayed ex LHR, were you not kept informed in the lounge? You didn't say what class of travel you were in.

15,000 miles is fairly standard as far as EK goes. EK are pretty resilient when it comes to compensation, and being threatened with legal action doesn't really work.

I also can't quite work out why you have taken a year to pursue this? I wouldn't expect any sort of response from EK on this - apart from the standard form letter.

Y flights, so sadly no lounge access :(

It was 10,000 miles, not 15,000, the 5,500 miles were earned for taking the flights.

The reason I have taken a year to pursue this is because I hadn't realised until I read another thread on the BA board in the past couple of days that I am entitled to cash compensation. Does it make a difference if they should have offered me the cash compensation at the time but didn't?. I understand there is a €5000 fine for not providing this.

Y flights, so sadly no lounge access :(

It was 10,000 miles, not 15,000, the 5,500 miles were earned for taking the flights.

The reason I have taken a year to pursue this is because I hadn't realised until I read another thread on the BA board in the past couple of days that I am entitled to cash compensation. Does it make a difference if they should have offered me the cash compensation at the time but didn't?. I understand there is a €5000 fine for not providing this.

Until the EU court confirms that delays are supposed to be treated the same as cancellations, airlines have been not paying out on delays. If you want to pursue this after so long, I would suggest waiting until it is formally ruled that a delay counts the same as a cancellation and then request the compensation from EK

If the airline can validly claim extraordinary circumstances , then you will not be entitled to the payout

Y flights, so sadly no lounge access :(

It was 10,000 miles, not 15,000, the 5,500 miles were earned for taking the flights.

The reason I have taken a year to pursue this is because I hadn't realised until I read another thread on the BA board in the past couple of days that I am entitled to cash compensation. Does it make a difference if they should have offered me the cash compensation at the time but didn't?. I understand there is a €5000 fine for not providing this.

Is the cash compensation for those EU member airlines? I have no idea with issues such as this, but I'm not convinced a €5000 fine is going to apply to EK, with UAE registered aircraft. I could be completely wrong. How much do you think you are entitled to? Did they (EK) provide any explanation at all, provide meal vouchers, offer to rebook you on a later flight, offer hotel accommodation etc

Is the cash compensation for those EU member airlines? I have no idea with issues such as this, but I'm not convinced a €5000 fine is going to apply to EK, with UAE registered aircraft. I could be completely wrong. How much do you think you are entitled to? Did they (EK) provide any explanation at all, provide meal vouchers, offer to rebook you on a later flight, offer hotel accommodation etc

EK 8 is a flight which departs from the EU and so EU regulations apply

EU regulations apply to all airlines departing from the EU and to EU airlines destined for the EU.

How much do you think you are entitled to?

According to this: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-delays

€600 each, so €1800!, or a refund.

I'd be happy with anything over £1000 GBP.

Seriously if you knew the whole story you would understand why I was so traumatised by this flight! :D

Read and enjoy......

(I wouldn't write a novel like this if I needed to complain to an airline again, but this was the first time I had ever done it, so please forgive the newbieness :D)


Date: 03/07/2011

Ref: Flight number EK008 Heathrow to Dubai 03/07/2011, booking reference XXXXX

Dear Sirs,

I am a frequent business traveler with BA , but I decided to take an emirates flight for our family holiday in Dubai in order to try your service which I heard so many good things about.

Whilst I am not normally the complaining type, I felt that there were a number of points I should draw to your attention and I hope you find my feedback valuable and use it to improve your service in future.

My wife and I booked our trip to Dubai at the beginning of June and received our tickets in mid June: 5 nights in Dubai from 03/07 to 08/07.

We immediately went on to the Emirates.com website in order to "manage our booking".

On this site we were able to select our seats, enter meal preferences and fill in our passenger information such as mobile number for sms text messaging.

We spent a great deal of time selecting seats, went on several websites which give advice about which are the best and worst seats to choose on a particular aeroplane and eventually decided to go with 39 a,b,c and checked again several times later in order to ensure things had not changed.

When we got to the check in desk this morning, we were informed that our selection had not been noted and that we had been given seats 21 d,e,f.
These seats are against a wall, next to the toilet and do not fully recline. When I expressed my disappointment to the check in staff I was told that the seat requests were simply not on the system and that nothing could be done about it.

I also went to your booking desk showed them on my mobile phone that the seat request still showed 39 a,b,c and asked them to confirm my inbound seats. They gave me a printout showing that we had indeed booked 39 a,b,c for the inbound.

I started writing this email whilst sitting on your aeroplane in 49 d,e,f but I'm not sure if something was done because of my complaint to their airport staff or if this is sheer chance. I'm still not really happy with the seating as it is a real shame my 2yo daughter cannot look out of the window of the airplane on her first ever flight.

My second reason for complaint is that there was a technical problem with the plane this morning which resulted in a serious delay however check in still proceeded on time and no clue was given that there would be a delay until after the boarding should have begun.

We had picked and planned this flight time very carefully because of our young child's sleeping times in order to make the journey as smooth as possible for us as well as our fellow passengers.

The idea was that she would have had an early nap almost as soon as we got on the plane and sleep through most of it.

The gate was supposed to open at 07:25 this morning and the first sign of any problem was when the departure time on the screens at the airport suddenly changed to 15:45 which wasn't until almost approaching 08:00 and incidentally just after we had seen the Emirates staff leave the building.

Once it was realised that there was a problem, hundreds of people started queuing at the Emirates counter at the information desk in order to collect vouchers for food at the airport.

£45 in vouchers is really no compensation for an expected 8 hour delay when travelling with a 2 year old.

We had all had to wake up at 04:00 in order to make it to the airport on time for your recommended check in time of at least 3 hours before the flight, in this case 05:40

Staff at information desk although helpful, did not really know what was going on.

We were told different things by different staff. We decided to leave the airport and come back later. One staff told us we would need to collect our baggage, whereas another staff told us we did not.

We have valuable clothes and other items in our baggage so we decided to go to the carousels, however after waiting over 30 minutes with no sign of any bags from our flight being taken off the plane we decided to leave anyway.

I'd also like to add that we had already purchased some duty free items, including liquids which we had planned to consume in Dubai, however we were not able to bring them back through security, so we had to leave those at home and purchase new ones when we arrived back.

It took us about an hour to get home after collecting my car back from the Heathrow Valet parking who were very helpful about the situation and managed to get my car back extra quick.

I then phoned the Emirates helpline in order to get further information and spoke to a very nice lady named [redacted] who advised me that the website was currently showing a time of 17:00, although they planned to leave earlier, around 15:45.

We also checked your website regularly for updates and the Heathrow departures websites. We had given our mobile phone numbers on your website (in the "manage my booking" section) in order to receive SMS updates of any changes but I would like to point out that this did not work, we did not receive any updates by SMS whatsoever.

We left home again at around 12:30 in order to make it back to the airport by at least 1:30 to allow plenty of time to get back through security and be on the flight for 15:45.

[redacted] from the head office was kind enough to call back several times and try to keep us updated however we felt that she was being fed wrong or/and vague information.

When we were almost at the airport we got another call from [redacted] telling us that the plane had been further delayed and would not be leaving until 19:00.

It was not worth us turning back at this point as the traffic was really bad, so I decided to go and see a friend of mine who lives about 15 miles from Heathrow.

No sooner than I had got there, I received yet another call from [redacted] saying that the plane would now be leaving at 16:30!

I literally had to leave straight away and race to the airport in order to get there with enough time to pass security.

I can understand departure times being delayed, but actually bringing forward seems insane to me, especially when passengers had been allowed to leave the airport and come back later.

Over the years I have travelled many times with various airlines and this is the first time that I have ever seen the flight time put forward and then brought back.

We arrived back at the airport at around 3:30 and raced through security, managing to be allowed to use the Fast Track, by a very kind security guard who felt sorry for us.

Once we got through security I was extremely surprised to see that the flight information was still saying "please wait". We decided to sit down at have a meal somewhere using our £45 voucher but no sooner had begun to order, I noticed the screen had changed to saying "go to gate 24" so we had to get up and leave the restaurant and did not have an opportunity to use our voucher.

This also caused a great deal of upset to my daughter who quite frankly had had enough of being messed around and dragged from place to place all day.

There are no facilities in the airport for a toddler to sleep and it didn't look like there was any Emirates lounge with a play area to keep them occupied.

Nevertheless, we were glad to be finally boarding the plane and the doors were closed around 16:30.

We were told by a very brief announcement on the plane "we're very sorry for the inconvenience this aeroplane has caused". There was no mention of the various changes of schedule or any apologies.

Let me assure you the plane caused us a lot less inconvenience than your lack of information or information being wrong when it was provided.

Throughout the day there was absolutely no information in the airport, no announcements on the speaker. We had to call Emirates phone number to find out what was going on and even then people could not provide us with any useful information.

The plane then sat on runway around another 2 hours before takeoff while someone's bags were removed. During this time, no announcements were made by the pilot in terms of informing us about slot times or anything like that. We were just made to wait endlessly with no explanations.

No food or drink was offered to us until meal was served. This was after being on the plane for 4 hours.

The plane also seemed very short staffed and we could tell the cabin crew were struggling to provide the proper level of service throughout the flight.

We asked for something to eat to give our toddler while the plane was waiting to take off and were swiftly forgotten about. Then, after the plane took off, the stewardess brought some baby food suitable for a 4months old baby, not a 2yo toddler.

The food quality really bad, for example the salmon and courgette starters were still frozen, the beer I was served was actually warm, the water was frozen solid.

I feel that there was also a really big lack of communication from the pilot. Usually they say what we're flying over, how long there is left, or let us know if there are going to be any turbulences, what the weather is like and what to expect.

As it happens there was turbulence on the plane several times and I believe it is normal industry practice for the pilot to reassure passengers during times like this.

No announcements were made by the pilot, we simply saw the seat belt lights come on which I'm sure would have been concerning to some passengers.

Something else that happened is that I enquired several times about upgrading the flight.

We had asked our travel agent for a quote but decided that it was too expensive, also we did not need to be picked up from home.

At check-in we were told that the plane was completely full and that there was no way we could upgrade and be seated all together.

Once on the plane we noticed that there were several rows of three seats together in business class and enquired again about the possibility of upgrading our three seats.

The steward told us that it would be USD 2000 so we told him that we would like to go ahead. He told us that it would be no problem and that he was going to check about the catering. My wife started collecting our belongings and my daughter got very excited about the new seats.

Then a stewardess came along and told us that actually it was USD2000 per person which we were not willing to pay. I felt highly embarrassed in front of my wife and the other passengers, let alone the crushing disappointment.

At around 10pm UK time, when I and most of the other passengers were actually exhausted from the day's events (most of us had been up since
4AM) and just about to fall into a deep and peaceful sleep for the last couple of hours of the journey, the crew decided to serve coffee, croissants and some rock hard pecan pastries which we were supposed to have for breakfast in the morning. At this time, most of the passengers, including children were fast asleep and nobody really wanted it. I'd like to add that the coffee served was amongst the worst coffee I have ever tasted in my entire life. The water, again, was frozen! This is what I was given instead of a dinner in the 5 star hotel which I am paying for, I really did not appreciate that the "service" also woke up my daughter. I'm sure the other passengers didn't appreciate it either.
Furthermore it took an extremely long time to serve. They could have easily done this far more discreetly and the few passengers who actually wanted the food could have switched on their personal lights. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to light up the whole cabin at this time of the night. Also again, the pilot or the cabin crew did not make announcements about switching the lights on.

We had a pushchair for our toddler right up until we boarded the plane.
We asked to take it in the cabin as we would need it to put our toddler in on arrival, so that we could carry our three cabin luggage. However we were told it would have to be put in the baggage hold.

We expected to get it back immediately on landing however we discovered that it would be coming out with the rest of the bags on the carousel.

When we landed we noticed that there were red Emirates pushchairs however these were not accessible, being in the departure gates behind a wall of glass. We could not access one until we reached passport control. With a sleepy and grumpy toddler, three cabin luggage and duty free shopping bags we really struggled.

To add insult to injury our pushchair was literally the very last item to turn up on the carousel and we were the last people waiting.

Instead of arriving at the hotel at 18:30pm on Sunday evening and having time to settle, enjoy dinner, look around the hotel and through the brochures to plan our short stay we landed at 4:30 AM the following day,
24 hours after leaving home, with no sleep whatsoever.

We arrived at the hotel at 6am and spent most of our first day in Dubai catching up on sleep.

I feel overall really disappointed with my experience with Emirates, an experience that I was really looking forward to based on the good things I have heard.

I am now not looking forward to the return flight at all.

In terms of compensation for our inconvenience what I would like to happen is that is our return flight is changed to a flight on Saturday
09/07/2011 with a free upgrade to business class and an extra night is paid for at our hotel to make up for the night we have missed.

I feel this would be the least you could do given the circumstances of what has happened.

I would very much appreciate a reply to this letter before we leave Dubai.

You can reach us here in room XX at the Mina Al Salam Hotel or send me an email.




And their reply, exactly 30 days later.....



Dear Mr PanGalactic

I refer to our acknowledgement of 5 July 2011 and I am sorry that it was not possible for us to reply to you prior to your return date.

We always endeavour to accommodate all our passengers’ pre-arranged seating requests. However, we do not guarantee pre-assigned seating as it may be changed for operational reasons.

I have viewed your booking history under reference XXXXX, and it does not reflect that any seats were pre-booked by you prior to departure. Therefore, the automated reservations system pre-assigned seats 21D, 21E and 21F for you and your family 3 days prior to departure. However, I am sorry for any disappointment caused.

Firstly, I feel it is important I reassure you that Emirates appreciates the value of its customers’ time and every effort is always made to ensure all flights are operated according to planned schedules. There is, however, the odd occasion when flights are disrupted due to reasons that could not be foreseen and I am very sorry that you were affected by circumstances such as these on your recent trip with us.

Unfortunately, flight EK008 scheduled to depart at 08.40 hours on 3 July developed a technical fault that needed to be rectified. Whilst we always do our utmost to ensure that passengers are able to travel as soon as possible, unfortunately in this instance it took longer than anticipated to solve the issue and the aircraft was unable to take off until late afternoon.

With any situation of this nature, it is difficult to predict the exact length of the delay however, I am very sorry that you feel that the information provided was insufficient. I do appreciate that travelling with a toddler, a situation such as this can be rather taxing and I very much regret the inconvenience caused to you and your family.

Whilst passengers had been advised that the flight would depart at 17.15 hours, a further delay occurred due to a passenger not presenting himself for boarding and therefore, for security reasons, the luggage had to be removed from the hold.

The aircraft carried the usual number of cabin crew and I am therefore surprised to note your comments regarding the service. However, I apologise for any oversight that occurred with the meal for Calypso and your comments regarding this and the serving of coffee and other refreshments have been conveyed to the Vice President Cabin Crew for information.

Emirates menus have won many International Awards, and are compiled and prepared in consultation with world-class Chefs. Therefore, it is disheartening to read your comments and we are truly sorry if we did not meet your expectations although I am sure you will agree that personal preference can be a subjective matter in that peoples’ tastes do vary. I also can truthfully say that we have not received any other complaints from your fellow passengers.

I have viewed the passenger figures for this flight and seats were available in Business Class. Whilst I cannot comment on a conversation that took place at check-in, the cost of the upgrade onboard was USD2000 for each passenger. However, I regret any misunderstanding that occurred.

We are not normally in a position to store pushchairs onboard due to space restrictions and these are usually carried in the luggage hold. It is unfortunate that you were unaware of this policy.

This is not a situation whereby a change of date or an upgrade would be considered free of charge.

However, in recognition of the inconvenience caused by the flight delay, I have taken the liberty to credit yours and Ms PanGalactic’ Skywards accounts with 10,000 complimentary miles each. I trust that this will meet your approval.

Mr PanGalactic, we do our utmost to ensure that all our passengers receive the best possible service on the ground and in the air and I am truly sorry for any inconvenience caused to you on this occasion.

I would like to add that we greatly value your custom and appreciate the choice available to passengers when it comes to arranging international air transportation. Whilst we may have failed to live up to your expectations on these occasions, I do hope that I have been able to reassure you of our service commitment. I take this opportunity to thank you for travelling with Emirates.

Yours sincerely


[redacted]

€600 each, so €1800!, or a refund.

I'd be happy with anything over £1000 GBP.

Seriously if you knew the whole story you would understand why I was so traumatised by this flight! :D

Read and enjoy......

(I wouldn't write a novel like this if I needed to complain to an airline again, but this was the first time I had ever done it, so please forgive the newbieness :D)

And their reply, exactly 30 days later.....

Crikey, what a saga. I feel for you. This is not the Emirates I know and fly - am not making excuses, just saying that this sounded like an absolute fiasco.

I was however, stuck at JFK due to a snowstorm 2-years ago and lived in the EK lounge for just over 48-hrs. The delays for this event had nothing to do with EK however...

There is however not much more that is going to happen as far as the airline is concerned (if you want my humble opinion). They've given you a written explanation (ie went mechanical) and for safety and operational reasons, they delayed the flight. They also provided meal vouchers.

You chose to go home and then come back.

Also, a little curious re the J class upgrades. J and F are upstairs. Did you board via the upper deck, or did you have a quick peek after you boarded to see if seats were available. And sorry to say, that yes, US$2000 is the crazy price required to do an onboard upgrade.

If it was me, I'd put it down to experience and not waste time on it. You got there safely. Travel insurance could have helped I suppose.

I reckon you're just going to waste energy by trying to get a refund...and wind even more frustrated and pissed off..

Based on the current state where delays are not counted as cancellations by airlines, their response seems quite reasonable especially considering the rambling letter with lots of irrelevent comments

If the EU court finally confirms that delay = cancellation as far as regulations are concerned, you may wish to try writing a concise letter to them then ; I wouldn't do anything at the moment

I would also suggest that the requested compensation was ridiculous for the situation that occurred

Also, a little curious re the J class upgrades. J and F are upstairs. Did you board via the upper deck, or did you have a quick peek after you boarded to see if seats were available. And sorry to say, that yes, US$2000 is the crazy price required to do an onboard upgrade.


On a 777 it would be a bit cold upstairs :) ; EK8 doesn't seem to be a flight operated using an A380 aeroplane

Until the EU court confirms that delays are supposed to be treated the same as cancellations, airlines have been not paying out on delays. If you want to pursue this after so long, I would suggest waiting until it is formally ruled that a delay counts the same as a cancellation and then request the compensation from EK

If the airline can validly claim extraordinary circumstances , then you will not be entitled to the payout

Putting the above sage comment with the detail (of I have to say excellent) EK CR response; I have to say I'd be moving on.

The seating foul-up is a separate issue, and were it me I may or may not travel said airline until I had some evidence they'd got their systems to work (this is not unique to EK, seating foul-ups seem more likely on some airlines than others though).

The delay, seems to me to be beyond EK's control unless you really think they should have solved X problem in under 4 hours at an out-station. Bottom-line are you prepared to go all the way to court and lose?

I like the EC Reg, I also like the probabilty the Courts' ruling will stop airlines counting 24 hour disruptions which they should sort sooner, as delays to avoid the 'cancellation' clauses. Sorry, Panny, don't think this was EK making a commercial decision to disrupt your flight, it seems a sensible safety reason.

The delay, seems to me to be beyond EK's control unless you really think they should have solved X problem in under 4 hours at an out-station. Bottom-line are you prepared to go all the way to court and lose?

I like the EC Reg, I also like the probabilty the Courts' ruling will stop airlines counting 24 hour disruptions which they should sort sooner, as delays to avoid the 'cancellation' clauses. Sorry, Panny, don't think this was EK making a commercial decision to disrupt your flight, it seems a sensible safety reason.

If the court rules that delays should be treated in same way as cancellations, then there is no reason to expect to lose a case in court; mechanical issues have already (iirc) been ruled to not be extraordinary circumstances

Honest opinion is that you got as much as you are going to get and pushing for more will cause you more grief that it is worth.

I've dealt with EK delays as a passenger multiple times (including multiple 7+ hour delays in recent memory) and they have handled your case pretty much in line with my experiences.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1120385-rant-poorly-handled-8-hour-delay-accra.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-skywards/1210839-emirates-flight-delay-misconnection-delayed-baggage-experience.html

With regards the EU claim for compensation, even if the courts rule (which is not a confirmed thing by any means) that "Sturgeon v Condor" applies to delays as well, Emirates will in all likelihood claim that the delay was due to circumstances out of their control. A technical fault in an outstation where proper duty of care obligations (the meal vouchers) was followed is quite likely to be accepted as a defense unless you have evidence to demonstrate otherwise. You would have been better off making a claim for the cost of your lost first night of prepaid hotel accommodation, and I wager that would have likely been paid without any fuss once the supporting documentation was provided.

Finally, while in no way diminishing the negative experience you went through, your letter unfortunately is prone to hyperbole in certain areas and this therefore leads the person dealing with your complaint to discount the areas that you had legitimate gripes as well. I would recommend that in the future you keep any complaint letters much more concise (no longer than 3-4 paragraphs at most) and as objective as possible. That will almost certainly result in quicker (and often more favourable) resolution of any issues.

If the court rules that delays should be treated in same way as cancellations, then there is no reason to expect to lose a case in court; mechanical issues have already (iirc) been ruled to not be extraordinary circumstances

Indeed a cracked window looks to me (as someone who has successfully pursued airlines through the Small Claims Court) to be a strong case for compensation, assuming the appeal lands where a lot of people expect it to land. But here are a few other points:


Is this really going to change your life? Stuff happens, sometimes best to move on to things which really matter, and money is not one of them.
You certainly can't do anything until the appeal is settled and that's months away. Well there may be a case to send a short letter (not email) into EK saying you remain unhappy and will await the Sturgeon appeal before taking next steps, but I don't think that's a game changer.
Bear in mind that though this is covered by the Regs due to the fact that the plane is outbound from the EU, EK have so far tried their best to avoid even the spirit of the Regs (for example during the Volcano Crisis). So your likely course of actiion will involve a series of unfruitful letters, letter before action, issue of court papers, exchange of documentation, fixing of court date, turn up at court (which EK probably won't do), and so on. Is that worth the hassle? What else could you do with that time?
If you do write in again I would suggest a more concise correspondence, focusing purely on the key points.
Going full circle on devil advocacy, it may be that you feel so badly treated that the Regulations give you some form of closure. In which case, that is what they are there for.
On the other hand, do you really want airlines to have any financially based hesitations on safety related issues? Especially when they are looking after your daughter?


Next time get proper insurance.

(On the positive side, this flight is what triggered me to start looking at points+miles in the first place and I probably would not be on this forum if it wasn't for that flight)


Ah, so we have Emirates to blame then!

mechanical issues have already (iirc) been ruled to not be extraordinary circumstances

No. This is a common misconception of the Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia judgement, but it is not the actual case.

The Wallentin-Hermann judgement stated that "a technical problem in an aircraft which leads to the cancellation of a flight is not covered by the concept of "extraordinary circumstances" within the meaning of that provision, unless that problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control".

In other words, the burden of proof is now on the carrier to demonstrate that the reason for the technical delay were "not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control". A technical fault at an outstation that requires specialised intervention to resolve (viz. not routine corrective action by line maintenance) could fall under this category if the airline chose to use this defense. Of course, the specific facts of the case would be considered to determine the veracity of that defense but personal experience (as a former airline designated representative for EU261/2004 compliance in UK and Germany) is that the NEB in the UK accepts this defense as prima facie valid unless evidence implies otherwise.

On a 777 it would be a bit cold upstairs :) ; EK8 doesn't seem to be a flight operated using an A380 aeroplane

Whoops, my mistake! ;)

In other words, the burden of proof is now on the carrier to demonstrate that the reason for the technical delay were "not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control". A technical fault at an outstation that requires specialised intervention to resolve (viz. not routine corrective action by line maintenance) could fall under this category if the airline chose to use this defense. Of course, the specific facts of the case would be considered to determine the veracity of that defense but personal experience (as a former airline designated representative for EU261/2004 compliance in UK and Germany) is that the NEB in the UK accepts this defense as prima facie valid unless evidence implies otherwise.

In which case, it could be worth pursuing and forcing the airline to prove that the delay was indeed outside of their control and that it is a valid defence

If the issue is not pursued, then the airline effectively wins by default

For me, in this situation, after a year I don't think my care factor on a flight delay would be there

I believe you were compensated in line with the rule and don't have a claim. The miles given were a goodwill gesture from the airline.

According to EC regulation 261 covering long delays if your flight is delayed by four hours or more if it is longer than 3,500 kilometres and departing from an EU airport. If so you are entitled to meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to waiting time together with two telephone calls, telexes, faxes or e-mails.

If the delay was above five hours and you decided not to travel then that is a different case.

In which case, it could be worth pursuing and forcing the airline to prove that the delay was indeed outside of their control and that it is a valid defence.

It is actually two things that the airline has to demonstrate. One is that the reason for the delay is "not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned" and the second is that the delay is "beyond its actual control".

In the case of a technical issue at an outstation that requires specialised intervention to resolve, this can be easily demonstrated by provision of the aircraft technical log extract. That the issue occurred at an outstation (as opposed to at a base where spare aircraft might be available) makes it easy to imply that the ensuing delay was beyond the airline's actual control.

The facts in the Wallentin-Hermann case were that an Alitalia aircraft had a tech problem on a certain day, but flights on subsequent days were cancelled as a result of that technical issue. This was ruled to not fall under the scope of the "extraordinary circumstances" exception for that very reason - namely that while Alitalia may not have had control over the underlying technical failure, the decision to cancel Wallentin-Hermann's specific flight was within their control and reasonable options existed for them to mitigate that disruption.

There are plenty of hardcore consumer advocates on FT who will try to argue that everything short of extraterrestrials eating the aircraft are within the scope of regular operations, but thankfully the authorities have taken a more sensible approach. At the end of the day though, if the OP wishes to spend the time to pursue the litigation through small claims court, in all likelihood the result will be a confidential settlement for the amount claimed, which may or may not be worth the amount of time expended to get to that stage depending on his personal circumstances and priorities.

There are plenty of hardcore consumer advocates on FT who will try to argue that everything short of extraterrestrials eating the aircraft are within the scope of regular operations, but thankfully the authorities have taken a more sensible approach. At the end of the day though, if the OP wishes to spend the time to pursue the litigation through small claims court, in all likelihood the result will be a confidential settlement for the amount claimed, which may or may not be worth the amount of time expended to get to that stage depending on his personal circumstances and priorities.

I certainly agree with the scenario involving a confidential settlement, and I also agree that National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) are easily persuaded on this (and many other) points.

My experience is that in England and Wales at least the Small Claims Court process looks at each case on its merit - following case law has a different application there and not all cases will end up with the same settlement. Also, more to the point, many airlines struggle to cope with Small Claims procedures, and in my case, simply don't show up in court. But yes, it is quite a journey to get to that point, and not for the faint hearted.

My experience is that in England and Wales at least the Small Claims Court process looks at each case on its merit - following case law has a different application there and not all cases will end up with the same settlement.

Certainly that is the case, but speaking from my experience defending claims for an airline, I have no experience of a ruling in favour of a claimant in a circumstance such as that which I have described (viz. a technical issue at an outstation that required specialised intervention - usually a part that had to be brought in from elsewhere). This has always been accepted in my experience as adequate defense to EU261/2004 claims by the NEB and small claims courts.

Thanks for all your responses!

This was my first ever long haul flight and I agree I did go a bit over the top in my letter to EK.
If I ever need to complain again I will do it in a much more concise manner and just stick to the facts. I only posted it on here for your entertainment really :D

That being said, I do feel I was not adequately compensated for the disruption caused to the holiday, so what I think I am going to do for now is re-open to the ticket and tell them so as I have absolutely no use for the miles given as compensation, I would need to fly Emirates several more times to earn enough miles to make use of them.
I was considering exchanging some for vouchers to Dubai Autodrome, or using them for the raffle, but as far as using them for flights, they are useless to me as after this experience I have vowed never to fly long haul in Y again.

I won't be bothered to take it as far as court, but I don't see what harm a quick email could do. Who knows, maybe they will up their offer? At the very least it keeps the correspondance going until this EU ruling comes out then it may be a different story.

I really don't see that there is any point in sending another mail now to indicate dissatisfaction with a response nearly a year ago. If you think that there would be grounds to claim under EU regs as a delay, then raise a claim when appropriate but a request to up an offer now is hardly going to be worth it

There can be harm in such mails if you ever have reason to contact a company in the future

I will just say this to the OP. It's time to move on and get over it. A year on and your still upset about it? These things happen in air travel and nothing really that usual.

From reading another thread on here I have realised I should have got cash compensation for a flight we took on EK008 on 3/7/2011 but instead we were fobbed off with 15,000 points after making us wait a full 30 days for an answer.

I wonder if someone could kindly look up (on KVS?) what happened to this flight and what the delay officially was recorded as in order to give me some ammo for my complaint?

(I believe the delay was in the region of 8 hours, possibly longer

That flight was delayed 9 hours. The detailed information gets archived after 24-72 hours and can only be retrieved by the airline itself, so you need to act fast in situations like these:

[KVS Availability Tool 7.0.2/Diamond - FS: Departures/Arrivals] (http://www.KVSTool.com/)
LHR London Heathrow UK [EGLL]
SUN 03 Jul 2011 | Departures

Carrier Flight From Schedule To Revised A/C Flt Status | Term | Gate
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- --------------------------
EK 8 LHR 08:40 DXB 17:42 773 Landed 3

BA 854 LHR 07:55 PRG 07:53 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6500 LHR 07:55 PRG 07:53 320 Landed 5
CX/** 7121 LHR 07:55 PRG 07:53 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3417 LHR 07:55 PRG 07:53 320 Landed 5
UA 929 LHR 07:55 ORD 08:48 744 Landed 1 31
AC/** 5357 LHR 07:55 ORD 08:48 744 Landed 1 31
BD/** 4479 LHR 07:55 ORD 08:48 744 Landed 1 31
CO/** 6057 LHR 07:55 ORD 08:48 744 Landed 1 31
LH/** 9348 LHR 07:55 ORD 08:48 744 Landed 1 31
BA 372 LHR 07:55 TLS 07:55 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6269 LHR 07:55 TLS 07:55 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3373 LHR 07:55 TLS 07:55 319 Landed 5
BA 762 LHR 07:55 OSL 07:55 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6541 LHR 07:55 OSL 07:55 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3591 LHR 07:55 OSL 07:55 319 Landed 5
QR 18 LHR 08:00 DOH 07:53 333 Landed 4
BD/** 2650 LHR 08:00 DOH 07:53 333 Landed 4
BA 490 LHR 08:00 GIB 08:00 320 Landed 3
AA/** 6301 LHR 08:00 GIB 08:00 320 Landed 3
EW 3381 LHR 08:05 DUS 08:20 CR2 Landed 1
LH/** 3381 LHR 08:05 DUS 08:20 CR2 Landed 1
BD/** 3251 LHR 08:05 DUS 08:20 CR2 Landed 1
UA/** 9234 LHR 08:05 DUS 08:20 CR2 Landed 1
AZ 229 LHR 08:10 LIN 08:10 32S Landed 4
DL/** 8214 LHR 08:10 LIN 08:10 32S Landed 4
#B 52 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
BD/** 52 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
AC/** 6643 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
BI/** 3052 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
CO/** 8862 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
GF/** 5252 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
LH/** 6680 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
MH/** 9614 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
SA/** 7620 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
TG/** 7012 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
UA/** 7701 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
VS/** 4052 LHR 08:10 EDI 08:10 ER4 Landed 1
BA 456 LHR 08:15 MAD 08:11 320 Landed 3
AA/** 6276 LHR 08:15 MAD 08:11 320 Landed 3
IB/** 7441 LHR 08:15 MAD 08:11 320 Landed 3
QF/** 3377 LHR 08:15 MAD 08:11 320 Landed 3
TP 353 LHR 08:15 LIS 08:29 320 Landed 1
AC/** 6928 LHR 08:15 LIS 08:29 320 Landed 1
SA/** 7001 LHR 08:15 LIS 08:29 320 Landed 1
S4/** 8743 LHR 08:15 LIS 08:29 320 Landed 1
UA/** 9607 LHR 08:15 LIS 08:29 320 Landed 1
BA 640 LHR 08:15 ATH 08:22 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6331 LHR 08:15 ATH 08:22 320 Landed 5
BA 918 LHR 08:20 STR 08:29 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6407 LHR 08:20 STR 08:29 319 Landed 5
CX/** 7171 LHR 08:20 STR 08:29 319 Landed 5
C3 3399 LHR 08:20 STR 08:16 100 Landed 1
LH/** 3399 LHR 08:20 STR 08:16 100 Landed 1
BD/** 3531 LHR 08:20 STR 08:16 100 Landed 1
CO/** 5276 LHR 08:20 STR 08:16 100 Landed 1
UA/** 9242 LHR 08:20 STR 08:16 100 Landed 1
BA 726 LHR 08:20 GVA 08:17 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6336 LHR 08:20 GVA 08:17 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3659 LHR 08:20 GVA 08:17 319 Landed 5
BA 890 LHR 08:25 SOF 08:30 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6380 LHR 08:25 SOF 08:30 320 Landed 5
AF 1481 LHR 08:25 CDG 08:35 ATR Landed 4
CZ/** 7012 LHR 08:25 CDG 08:35 ATR Landed 4
BA 117 LHR 08:30 JFK 08:30 744 Landed 5
AA/** 6138 LHR 08:30 JFK 08:30 744 Landed 5
IB/** 4613 LHR 08:30 JFK 08:30 744 Landed 5
BA 350 LHR 08:30 NCE 08:27 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6580 LHR 08:30 NCE 08:27 319 Landed 5
CX/** 7227 LHR 08:30 NCE 08:27 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3567 LHR 08:30 NCE 08:27 319 Landed 5
BA 430 LHR 08:30 AMS 08:37 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6502 LHR 08:30 AMS 08:37 319 Landed 5
IT/** 7044 LHR 08:30 AMS 08:37 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3371 LHR 08:30 AMS 08:37 319 Landed 5
BA 752 LHR 08:30 BSL 08:28 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6366 LHR 08:30 BSL 08:28 319 Landed 5
AC 869 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
9W/** 5069 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
BD/** 4869 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
CO/** 4099 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
LH/** 5338 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
SK/** 3871 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
TG/** 5804 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
UA/** 8203 LHR 08:30 YYZ 08:46 333 Landed 3 29
BA 360 LHR 08:40 LYS 08:36 319 Landed 5
AA/** 6714 LHR 08:40 LYS 08:36 319 Landed 5
CX/** 7221 LHR 08:40 LYS 08:36 319 Landed 5
QF/** 3531 LHR 08:40 LYS 08:36 319 Landed 5
KL 1002 LHR 08:40 AMS 08:45 737 Landed 4
CZ/** 7964 LHR 08:40 AMS 08:45 737 Landed 4
DL/** 9473 LHR 08:40 AMS 08:45 737 Landed 4
#B 84 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
BD/** 84 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
AC/** 6635 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
BI/** 3084 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
CO/** 8856 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
LH/** 6692 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
GF/** 5284 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
SK/** 9715 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
SA/** 7600 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
UA/** 7673 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
UL/** 2284 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
VS/** 4084 LHR 08:40 BHD 09:25 ER4 Landed 1
CO 19 LHR 08:40 EWR 08:40 752 Landed 4 1C
AC/** 2499 LHR 08:40 EWR 08:40 752 Landed 4 1C
BD/** 6113 LHR 08:40 EWR 08:40 752 Landed 4 1C
LH/** 7625 LHR 08:40 EWR 08:40 752 Landed 4 1C
UA/** 1014 LHR 08:40 EWR 08:40 752 Landed 4 1C
FB 852 LHR 08:40 SOF 09:33 320 Unknown 4
#B 674 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
BD/** 674 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
AC/** 6593 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
CO/** 8850 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
GF/** 5274 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
LH/** 6550 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
MH/** 9670 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
SA/** 7640 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
UA/** 7697 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
VS/** 4674 LHR 08:40 ABZ 08:40 ER4 Landed 1
BA 3380 LHR 08:40 LEJ 74F Unknown
BA 866 LHR 08:50 BUD 08:47 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6731 LHR 08:50 BUD 08:47 320 Landed 5
MA/** 4866 LHR 08:50 BUD 08:47 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3409 LHR 08:50 BUD 08:47 320 Landed 5
BA 662 LHR 08:50 LCA 08:50 767 Landed 5
AA/** 6394 LHR 08:50 LCA 08:50 767 Landed 5
BA 1438 LHR 08:50 EDI 08:57 321 Landed 5
AA/** 6562 LHR 08:50 EDI 08:57 321 Landed 5
IT/** 7222 LHR 08:50 EDI 08:57 321 Landed 5
QF/** 3461 LHR 08:50 EDI 08:57 321 Landed 5
BA 982 LHR 08:50 TXL 08:58 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6594 LHR 08:50 TXL 08:58 320 Landed 5
CX/** 7183 LHR 08:50 TXL 08:58 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3613 LHR 08:50 TXL 08:58 320 Landed 5
EI 153 LHR 08:50 DUB 08:46 320 Landed 1
BA/** 5953 LHR 08:50 DUB 08:46 320 Landed 1
UA/** 7653 LHR 08:50 DUB 08:46 320 Landed 1
LX 317 LHR 08:50 ZRH 08:50 320 Landed 1
BD/** 6791 LHR 08:50 ZRH 08:50 320 Landed 1
OS 452 LHR 08:50 VIE 09:03 738 Landed 1
AC/** 6158 LHR 08:50 VIE 09:03 738 Landed 1
BD/** 2802 LHR 08:50 VIE 09:03 738 Landed 1
LH/** 6399 LHR 08:50 VIE 09:03 738 Landed 1
#S 353 LHR 08:55 GVA 09:38 AR1 Landed 1
LX/** 353 LHR 08:55 GVA 09:38 AR1 Landed 1
BD/** 6773 LHR 08:55 GVA 09:38 AR1 Landed 1
BA 165 LHR 08:55 TLV 08:55 777 Landed 5
BA 872 LHR 08:55 DME 09:02 767 Landed 5
S7/** 4872 LHR 08:55 DME 09:02 767 Landed 5
BD 537 LHR 08:55 SVG 08:55 319 Landed 1
AC/** 6605 LHR 08:55 SVG 08:55 319 Landed 1
BA 1306 LHR 08:55 ABZ 08:55 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6706 LHR 08:55 ABZ 08:55 320 Landed 5
IT/** 7166 LHR 08:55 ABZ 08:55 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3355 LHR 08:55 ABZ 08:55 320 Landed 5
SU 240 LHR 08:55 SVO 09:07 321 Landed 4
BA 392 LHR 08:55 BRU 08:52 320 Landed 5
AA/** 6425 LHR 08:55 BRU 08:52 320 Landed 5
IT/** 7028 LHR 08:55 BRU 08:52 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3389 LHR 08:55 BRU 08:52 320 Landed 5
BA 950 LHR 08:55 MUC 08:50 320 Landed 5
CX/** 7167 LHR 08:55 MUC 08:50 320 Landed 5
QF/** 3565 LHR 08:55 MUC 08:50 320 Landed 5
LH 3391 LHR 08:55 HAM 09:09 733 Landed 1
BD/** 3301 LHR 08:55 HAM 09:09 733 Landed 1
UA/** 9238 LHR 08:55 HAM 09:09 733 Landed 1
BD 3411 LHR 09:05 CGN 08:59 319 Landed 1
LH/** 3411 LHR 09:05 CGN 08:59 319 Landed 1
BD/** 3545 LHR 09:05 CGN 08:59 319 Landed 1
UA 1815 LHR 00:00 ORD 08:15 Landed 1 56

I will just say this to the OP. It's time to move on and get over it. A year on and your still upset about it? These things happen in air travel and nothing really that usual.

Honestly I had forgotten about it, but I saw on a recent thread on the BA board that someone managed to get $600 per ticket for a 24 hour delay (within about 3 weeks of complaining), so I was reminded of this incident and started thinking that EK were a bit rude to fob me off with points. If there's a law that says they should have paid me cash, why should they be allowed to get away with it?

If they had made an effort to respond to my complaint swiftly, changed my return flight by 1 day and gave me something towards the missed hotel night they would have had a customer for life.

In retrospect it's a good thing that this happened, as I mentioned before I have since become fanatically loyal to BA and have been reaping the associated benefits (of which there are many) ever since :)

Thanks for the info KVS! I really must get around to signing up for your tool soon :)

I have written back to them (briefly) and requested an offer of cash compensation as I don't personally feel there is much to loose.

Edit: Got autoreply back from "Customer Affairs Audit Team" saying they re-open at 9am today.

Wow, that was quick......



Dear Mr PanGalactic,


Thank you for your email.

Please be advised that your file has already been fully investigated and the appropriate recompense offered. However to bring the matter to a more amicable conclusion, I have arranged for yours and Ms P’ Skywards accounts to be credited with and additional 5,000 complimentary miles each.

May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is only currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and not for delayed flights departing from the UK.



Yours sincerely


[redacted]


So now my wife and I have 20500 useless skydirhams each, bleh! :mad:

I expect if I email back now and ask for more they will just ignore me so I'm just going to email back and say that I am still dissatisfied and eagerly await the EU ruling.

I expect if I email back now and ask for more they will just ignore me so I'm just going to email back and say that I am still dissatisfied and eagerly await the EU ruling.

Even when the EU ruling is made in pax favour this autumn, EK will not just hand over compensation automatically. I think you will find that you will almost certainly have to take the airline to small claims court before any pay out. The airlines hate 261/2004 with a vengeance and will fight every claim tooth and nail.

I do take issue with this statement:

"May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is only currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and not for delayed flights departing from the UK".

It should read as follows:

"May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and for delayed flights departing from the UK".

What the author probably meant to say is that court claims for delay compensation are stayed until the legal challenge to Sturgeon is ruled upon, but you knew this anyway...

Even when the EU ruling is made in pax favour this autumn, EK will not just hand over compensation automatically. I think you will find that you will almost certainly have to take the airline to small claims court before any pay out. The airlines hate 261/2004 with a vengeance and will fight every claim tooth and nail.

I do take issue with this statement:

"May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is only currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and not for delayed flights departing from the UK".

It should read as follows:

"May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and for delayed flights departing from the UK".

What the author probably meant to say is that court claims for delay compensation are stayed until the legal challenge to Sturgeon is ruled upon, but you knew this anyway...

This talk of small claims court over a standard mechanical delay is just silly. And here i thought we American's were the most litigious society on the planet. Appears not so much

What the author probably meant to say is that court claims for delay compensation are stayed until the legal challenge to Sturgeon is ruled upon, but you knew this anyway...

The author has chosen his/her words very carefully. "Currently applicable" is the key phrase and is absolutely correct. At this time, the judgement in Sturgeon has been referred back to the ECJ by the High Court and therefore it is not "currently applicable".

The regulation itself, prior to the ECJ's interpretation in Sturgeon, had no provision for compensation in the case of delays. Therefore, in the absence of adoption of the judgement modifying the interpretation of the regulation, the regulation stands in its unmodified interpretation which is that no compensation is payable.

Even if the judgement is upheld, the regulation itself is not changed, but merely its interpretation. Therefore, an airline is perfectly within its rights to require that a court orders it to interpret the regulation in accordance with Sturgeon in each and every claim brought against it without violating the letter of the regulation itself. Ergo, there will be no automatic provision for compensation if Sturgeon is upheld but rather a more certain basis of victory in a court action.

This talk of small claims court over a standard mechanical delay is just silly. And here i thought we American's were the most litigious society on the planet. Appears not so much


I won't be bothered to take it as far as court, but I don't see what harm a quick email could do. Who knows, maybe they will up their offer?

The author has chosen his/her words very carefully. "Currently applicable" is the key phrase and is absolutely correct. At this time, the judgement in Sturgeon has been referred back to the ECJ by the High Court and therefore it is not "currently applicable".

It may not be currently applicable via courts in Eng/Wales but remains applicable throughout the remainder of the EU and pax have been and are still being compensated for delay in the rest of the EU.

The regulation itself, prior to the ECJ's interpretation in Sturgeon, had no provision for compensation in the case of delays. Therefore, in the absence of adoption of the judgement modifying the interpretation of the regulation, the regulation stands in its unmodified interpretation which is that no compensation is payable.

See my response above.

Ergo, there will be no automatic provision for compensation if Sturgeon is upheld but rather a more certain basis of victory in a court action.

Something which I have repeated at some length to potential claimants.

It may not be currently applicable via courts in Eng/Wales but remains applicable throughout the remainder of the EU and pax have been and are still being compensated for delay in the rest of the EU.

Not to be pedantic (ok, I am being pedantic, sorry! :P), but isn't that exactly what Emirates said? (emphasis mine)

May I please clarify that in accordance with EU legislation for flights over 3500km, compensation is only currently applicable for certain categories of flight cancellation and not for delayed flights departing from the UK

Also, just to keep things accurate, in addition to the UK, Germany has also suspended application of the Sturgeon judgement in some narrow applications involving Montreal Convention claims, pending the referral of Nelson v Lufthansa which has been combined with the case of Tui Travel plc, British Airways plc, Easyjet Airline Company plc and IATA v Civil Aviation Authority for the purpose of the ECJ hearings.

It may not be currently applicable via courts in Eng/Wales but remains applicable throughout the remainder of the EU and pax have been and are still being compensated for delay in the rest of the EU.


Am no lawyer but if its not currently applicable and that changes post event, would EK still be liable for an event occurring in the past ie ex post facto?

Am no lawyer but if its not currently applicable and that changes post even, would EK still be liable for an event occurring in the past ie ex post facto?

Yes. The UK airlines have successfully "stayed" (put on ice) all similar claims that have gone through the Small Claims process while the appeal goes on, and since that's a matter of the public record, it would be widely understood that there is no point submitting new claims until it is resolved. Which would cover dear Panny and his woes.

If the appeal is overturned it will almost certainly be open season for the airlines. As it was for the banks with mis-selling credit card insurance. It's even conceivable (though unlikely) that the airlines will be asked to pro-actively seek out and compensate the "victims" of delays.

I am not entirely convinced that this is the right road, but if someone has a grievance that is what the legal system is there for.

Am no lawyer but if its not currently applicable and that changes post event, would EK still be liable for an event occurring in the past ie ex post facto?

As the judgement is merely an interpretation of legislation, it would apply to legal relationships which arose and were established prior to the judgement but subsequent to the legislation coming into force (February 2005).

There is however potential grounds for re-examination of the temporal applicability in a more narrow application (viz. not a review of Sturgeon itself but likely an alternate test case) related to the 2006 ECJ judgement in R v Department of Transport that states "as regards delay the passengers do not have the right to compensation under Article 7, although the carrier is still obliged to provide care and re-imbursement/re-routing".

I do not expect that the judgement in the review of Sturgeon will be the end of the matter, whichever way it rules. The United Kingdom, Germany, various airlines, IATA, the EU Parliament and the EU Council have all filed amicus curae briefs urging the overturn of the Sturgeon judgement and I expect that their battle will continue until 261/2004 is revised, revoked or superceded.

As the judgement is merely an interpretation of legislation, it would apply to legal relationships which arose and were established prior to the judgement but subsequent to the legislation coming into force (February 2005).

There is however potential grounds for re-examination of the temporal applicability in a more narrow application (viz. not a review of Sturgeon itself but likely an alternate test case) related to the 2006 ECJ judgement in R v Department of Transport that states "as regards delay the passengers do not have the right to compensation under Article 7, although the carrier is still obliged to provide care and re-imbursement/re-routing".

I do not expect that the judgement in the review of Sturgeon will be the end of the matter, whichever way it rules. The United Kingdom, Germany, various airlines, IATA, the EU Parliament and the EU Council have all filed amicus curae briefs urging the overturn of the Sturgeon judgement and I expect that their battle will continue until 261/2004 is revised, revoked or superceded.

Agreed, except that I do not believe airlines will subject themselves to another embarassment by using C-344/04 to try to overturn delay compensation, since Sturgeon plus 629/10 has established and upheld the principle, but will use all the PR at their disposal to encourage the Commission to redraft the Reg ASAP to strike what they would see as a more equitable balance.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here with EK. Is it really about getting some money for your self or some principle you are trying to prove? I think EK have been fair in how they handled your complaint, which was essentially a delay to travel all the rest of your complaint could be put down to being peeved with EK.

I note that you started the thread " whats the most Avios you got from BA as compensation and for what?" with a view to establishing a "compensation menu"! It does make it hard for me to beleive, as you state in your opening salvo to EK, that you are not someone who normally complains. It seems that the 30k(10+10+5+5) skywards miles you have both so far got fits in perfectly well if not better than what you have established BA menu ( your preferred airline) would pay.

As for the miles why dont you just buy something from their catalogue?

Finally as someone who has travelled on BA for over 20 years ( and Gold for most of that time), I will say that their coffee is worse than EK's!

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here with EK. Is it really about getting some money for your self or some principle you are trying to prove? I think EK have been fair in how they handled your complaint, which was essentially a delay to travel all the rest of your complaint could be put down to being peeved with EK.


You are right, I am just really peeved! :rolleyes:


I note that you started the thread " whats the most Avios you got from BA as compensation and for what?" with a view to establishing a "compensation menu"! It does make it hard for me to beleive, as you state in your opening salvo to EK, that you are not someone who normally complains. It seems that the 30k(10+10+5+5) skywards miles you have both so far got fits in perfectly well if not better than what you have established BA menu ( your preferred airline) would pay.


Well, yes except being in the UK I could make good use of 15,000 Avios, whereas 15,000 Skywards miles is pretty much just an invitation to spend more money in order to get enough miles to redeem on flights.


As for the miles why dont you just buy something from their catalogue?


Erm, because everything on there is overpriced tat? :)

Actually I think I'm either going to get a couple of ipod nano's for $94+20,000 miles, spend with arabian adventures, or use them up for the raffle.


Finally as someone who has travelled on BA for over 20 years ( and Gold for most of that time), I will say that their coffee is worse than EK's!

I'd say they are equally as bad!

Have you not seen my coffee thread ? :D

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1357275-why-does-ba-coffee-taste-so-vile.html

I just learnt WAY to much about EU law and flight delays, wonder if that's where my headache has come from! :D

I just learnt WAY to much about EU law and flight delays, wonder if that's where my headache has come from! :D

+1

This entire thread got a bit ridiculous. OP had a mechanical didn't have travel insurance for such an important holiday, had to eat a night of hotel he didn't enjoy. And in Y no less so we can image how cheap the fare was. Hmm don't really see all this round and round about legal action etc.

PanGalactic - you have voiced your concerns and got what I thought were brilliant and technical responses (felt like a law class). You chose to ignore (which is your personal choice), complained again to EK and got further compensation. I am not sure what more you are trying to get out of this. EK is not a small airline and if the CASA agent's reply included a "legal opinion" of sort I am inclined to say they have obviously looked into this and into what their obligations are towards you.

Your aircraft had a fault that deemed it unfit to fly, I believe EK took the right and probably the only choice of action with the delay. Always better late than sorry. Yes perhaps they could have handled it better but they didn't. It is not the end of the word. Get over it and move on. We have all been in this situation before and missed important revenue generating meetings/weddings/births/funerals etc not just a paid hotel night.

PanGalactic - you have voiced your concerns and got what I thought were brilliant and technical responses (felt like a law class). You chose to ignore (which is your personal choice), complained again to EK and got further compensation. I am not sure what more you are trying to get out of this. EK is not a small airline and if the CASA agent's reply included a "legal opinion" of sort I am inclined to say they have obviously looked into this and into what their obligations are towards you.

Your aircraft had a fault that deemed it unfit to fly, I believe EK took the right and probably the only choice of action with the delay. Always better late than sorry. Yes perhaps they could have handled it better but they didn't. It is not the end of the word. Get over it and move on. We have all been in this situation before and missed important revenue generating meetings/weddings/births/funerals etc not just a paid hotel night.

Clearly the OP wasn't looking for reason from his very first post.

"I fully intend to go back and insist on the cash compensation if I am entitled to it as this experience left me feeling extremely pissed off with EK and I'm still bitter about it to this day."

He was looking for ammunition as he again said himself.

It's time to consider the matter closed and move on.

OK, OK, I'm moving on :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc7b_cEE7ys

€600 each, so €1800!, or a refund.

I'd be happy with anything over £1000 GBP.



What you think your perceived debt is worth is largely irrelevant. Only you can judge its worth to you. To somebody else its worth something else

That debt has an objective value-even if that value is zero-or near zero

The value of the debt in your hands -as a cash value-is what somebody is prepared to pay for it-( and this includes the carrier as a redeemer of the debt).

You can only lose out-if you bin that perceived debt and somebody is prepared to pay value ( cash) for it.

For example, if I offered £5 to you for that debt, that becomes its cash value-absent any higher offer.

You would lose out in pure financial terms if you binned the debt-by not accepting my offer-and you lose out to the extent of £5.

If I was prepared to make an offer of £5 ( and you binned the debt)-and you didnt know about that offer-you would also lose out to the extent of £5-you just wouldnt know you were losing out.

And 1st prize for the most bizarre post on FT!

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here with EK. Is it really about getting some money for your self or some principle you are trying to prove?

If you make the OP an offer you find out-don't you?

And 1st prize for the most bizarre post on FT!

Not really, seems to just detail how debt buying companies work.

A debt for an amount X is owed to an entity
The DB company purchases that debt for a lower amount Y
As long as they can realise a value more than Y ( possibly all the way to X ) then they make a profit

If the person is genuinely owed EUR1800 ( which is not proven ) but wouldnt go to effort of taking it to court, if someone was prepared to pay EUR1000 for it he would work out ahead over the zero otherwise realised.

Not the same but there are companies online which will handle EU regulation claims and take a percentage of the amount earned should it be successful; the OP might want to look at claiming there if it may be a claimable case

Ok, I'm losing the will to live now with this thread and we haven't just slightly veered off topic, we've actually careened off a cliff. Can we ALL move on. Please.

SIMON
(eightblack)
Moderator-EK Forum