Germany - FRA-DUS on Christmas eve train, drive or fly?

Title really sums it up, any input on the best method for getting from Frankfurt to Dusseldorf (actually Monheim am Rhein) on 24/12? Mostly concerned about possible weather delays. Thanks

Tricky question. If you are concerned about weather delays - train I assume - then you have good chances of having weather related problems on the road as well. If this is your main concern, then I would recommend to pick the train - unless you are a good/experienced driver for winter conditions.

Having that said, winter is usually no problem at Christmas. That is usually an issue after Christmas. But who knows yet if we get problems this year at Christmas. :D

I haven't checked, but I can't imagine there being flights between DUS and FRA - considering how close they are. But even if there are flights I don't think it would make sense to fly, especially as it's Monheim rather than Düsseldorf you're travelling to.

It's not clear from your post if you're looking to get to Monheim from FRA (i.e., Frankfurt Airport) or the town of Frankfurt. Either way it looks like a journey of about two hours involving two changes, with the last bit being by bus. See www.bahn.de for timetables.

Going by car may be easier, especially if you have lots of baggage. Germany doesn't generally get very severe winters, and with Christmas Eve being a Monday this year traffic shouldn't be much of a problem as most people will have done their Christmas travelling at the week-end.

What time will you be travelling? Public transport will probably run to a reduced schedule from about mid-day.

We fly into FRA on the 23rd to hit the end of their Christmas market (fingers crossed for no flight delays), we'll be staying at the Westin Grand that night then heading out the next morning, I think Christmas lunch is at 2 or so in Monheim, so that's our targeted arrival. Lufthansa has direct flights for $100 USD so we're looking at the cost vs. delay potential comparison. We saw that the rental cars have the option of winter tires, are they required at certain times of the year or they just fit them if you pre reserve them?

Thanks for the link but when I try to put in my trip I get an error that 24/12 is too far away to look up tickets/times.

You're right, they do still fly from DUS to FRA. I thought it was one of the routes they'd given up and replaced by rail links, but I can see now that I was wrong and they are still running flights.

However, flying between FRA and DUS really makes no sense whatsoever, unless you are connecting to another flight or both your departure point and your destination are right next to the respective airports.

In your case it would make even less sense because Monheim is between Frankfurt and Düsseldorf so you'd be backtracking. DUS (the airport) to Monheim is an hour by public transport, heading back in the direction you came from.

Public transport connections don't tend to change an awful lot from one month to the next, so if you want to check out the public transport connections just enter a random date and that will give you a general idea.

DUS to Monheim can't be booked online (as it's all suburban transport). For the journey from Frankfurt fares start at EUR 19 (non-flexible) for the train portion of the journey (to either Leverkusen or Langenfeld), plus the cost of the bus. Langenfeld to Monheim is only ten minutes by bus so you could probably take a taxi instead.

Right. Railtrack is like this: Frankfurt Airport - Cologne - Langenfeld (for Monheim) - Düsseldorf - Düsseldorf Airport. Flying to DUS and backtracking to Monheim makes no sense at all. Train is by far easier. Depending on the number of pax in the party one could even think about a taxi which should be in the range of 250 Euro from Frankfurt Airport to Monheim.

There absolutely are flights between FRA and DUS; I'm booked on one next month! In your case I'd say that taking the train is probably just as quick and probably a little easier. The ICE between FRA and Cologne's Hbf is under 45 minutes, and then however long the regional takes. The train is not going to be cheap, though.

Why am I flying from FRA to DUS you ask? This is FT after all.

Title really sums it up, any input on the best method for getting from Frankfurt to Dusseldorf (actually Monheim am Rhein) on 24/12? Mostly concerned about possible weather delays. Thanks

I would not even consider anything but the train to you destination !

Since you are staying at the Grand Westin:
It´s located in downtown Frankfurt a few steps from Konstablerwache S-Bahn stop. It´s 3 stops from Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof (central station) - no brainer regarding frequencies towards Hauptbahnhof. From Hauptbahnhof you´ll take an ICE-train to Cologne and change there to a local train to Langenfeld.
I recommend to book your train ticket exactly 3 months before your journey because 1) discount tickets won´t be bookable more than 90 days before the trip and 2) the number of discounted ticket around christmas time will be very limited

From Langenfeld station to Monheim you´re best off either taking a taxi or let your host pick you up there. That saves you from dragging luggage into a local bus.
And be aware that public transport schedules on dec 24 usually run like saturdays until noon but afterwards extremely limited or even not at all)

The train is not going to be cheap, though.

19 Euro, if they book early enough. I wouldn't call that "not cheap"! :-)

And, as repeatedly pointed out, flying from FRA to DUS to get to Monheim would just be insane. Monheim is two hours north of FRA and one hour south of DUS.

19 Euro, if they book early enough. I wouldn't call that "not cheap"! :-)

And, as repeatedly pointed out, flying from FRA to DUS to get to Monheim would just be insane. Monheim is two hours north of FRA and one hour south of DUS.

That is the non-refundable fare that you throw away if your flight is delayed and you miss the train, no?

Although Christmas time hasn't been too bad weather-wise the past two years, any bad weather around FRA can make this a difficult connection. If everything goes nicely, it should be no problem to catch the train. If.

OP doesn't state where s/he is flying in from. Maybe a direct flight into CGN or DUS would make more sense than Frankfurt?

That is the non-refundable fare that you throw away if your flight is delayed and you miss the train, no?

It would have to be a very long delay.

The OP is due to fly into FRA the day before, and is staying in the town centre overnight - which is another reason why flying to DUS would make no sense whatsoever. Half an hour to get to the airport, one hour check-in, one hour in the air, one hour on a train going back in the direction they came from.

I missed the overnight in Frankfurt part. In that case, the train is the smartest of all options, unless they are looking for segments/miles on *A.

Ironically, my most recent delay in FRA was, you guessed it, one whole day due to weather related problems last winter.

Public transport connections don't tend to change an awful lot from one month to the next, so if you want to check out the public transport connections just enter a random date and that will give you a general idea.

But bear in mind that the main timetable change happens shortly before christmas (usually the second weekend in december), so there might be "awful changes" especially when you need to catch a connection. The new timetables are usually published in october, so you might want to check back then.

But bear in mind that the main timetable change happens shortly before christmas (usually the second weekend in december), so there might be "awful changes" especially when you need to catch a connection. The new timetables are usually published in october, so you might want to check back then.

Good point, though unlikely to be a problem on this particular itinerary.

Frankfurt to Langenfeld (the nearest train station to Monheim) is a simple and straightforward train journey from Frankfurt to Cologne followed by half an hour on the S-Bahn.

There will always be plenty of trains from Frankfurt to Cologne. There will always be an S-Bahn, probably running at least every half hour. The precise timings may well change in December, but the changes aren't likely to affect the viability of the journey.

If the OP wants the cheapest fare they should, in any event, try to book 92 days in advance (or as close to that as the system will let them - which may mean waiting until the new timetables have been loaded), so there shouldn't be any last-minute surprises.

Another point to consider for the OP in all of this...

Around Christmastime, the trains, from the regionals on up to the ICE trains will be packed to capacity. Two Christmases ago I took a regional down to Munich from Nuremberg and came back the next day (the 24th of December). The Nuremberg to Munich train was filled with people standing in the aisle for the entire 1 hour 45 minute trip. The train back on Christmas eve that I boarded as soon as the doors opened along with an unruly mob of Germans, I ended up with one of the very last seats. The train was packed to the gills, Tokyo subway rush hour style for almost the entire trip back up (a scant few got off at Ingolstadt). Even if you have a reserved seat on an ICE, that doesn't mean your car won't have an aisle filled with people camped out on their suitcases, effectively blocking the aisles for the entire trip.

Not trying to scare you, just wanted you to know what you may be in for. There are certain times when it does make more sense and save your sanity to fly.

Did someone mention that going by train from Frankfurt to Cologne is an adventure by itself. High speed trains travel with nearly 200 mph.

Go for the ICE train.

Chris

Another point to consider for the OP in all of this...

Around Christmastime, the trains, from the regionals on up to the ICE trains will be packed to capacity. Two Christmases ago I took a regional down to Munich from Nuremberg and came back the next day (the 24th of December). The Nuremberg to Munich train was filled with people standing in the aisle for the entire 1 hour 45 minute trip. The train back on Christmas eve that I boarded as soon as the doors opened along with an unruly mob of Germans, I ended up with one of the very last seats. The train was packed to the gills, Tokyo subway rush hour style for almost the entire trip back up (a scant few got off at Ingolstadt). Even if you have a reserved seat on an ICE, that doesn't mean your car won't have an aisle filled with people camped out on their suitcases, effectively blocking the aisles for the entire trip.

Not trying to scare you, just wanted you to know what you may be in for. There are certain times when it does make more sense and save your sanity to fly.

If memory serves me correct, then we had quite some snow at christmas two years ago which might explain why the trains were to full.

In any case, I would recommend to make seat reservations for the journey. The seat reservation can be done online without buying train tickets.

Around Christmastime, the trains, from the regionals on up to the ICE trains will be packed to capacity.

I don't think it will be all that bad this year.

Christmas Eve falls on a Monday. Most people will finish work on the Friday, and travel over the week-end. Monday should be relatively quiet.

And, don't forget, you'd have to go for a train ride even if you fly to DUS. As you are staying in a hotel before your train ride, it is perfectly safe to book an advance fare including a seat reservation. If you have by any means access to a "real" person to book your train tickets with, you could even ask for a seat in the "lounge compartment" (or any kind of compartment which can also be booked online, but the "lounge" is more spacious). There will be hardly anyone standing in the compartments, I guess.

Edit: when booking online, be sure to select the quiet zone ("Ruhebereich") when asked for your seating preferences. They have turned all the compartments (including the lounge) into quiet zones.

Too many good responses to quote all thanks!

parallelrechner the fast trains are pretty cool, we hit the maglev in Shanghai all 268 mph of it, but I found it strange as they're so quiet that the sense of speed doesn't hit you.

We'll keep our eye on the DB site around October for when fares are loaded.

No one recommends driving? What are the autobahns and other major roads like if it snows? Seems like we can rent a car for about 150 USD from the morning of the 24th in Frankfurt and return in the evening of the 26th in Langenfeld, or 250 USD for an SUV with 4wd.

No one recommends driving? What are the autobahns and other major roads like if it snows?

There is no reason you can't drive... and the risk of there being significant snow is probably not that great.

I would take the train because it's more relaxing, and because it's likely to work out cheaper (bear in mind that fuel is VERY expensive in Europe). Also, you'd have the hassle of collecting the car (or are they going to deliver it to the hotel), and of dropping it off again.

You haven't told us how many of you there are. If there are more than two of you then the balance might start to tip in favour of driving.

No one recommends driving?

Driving on German highways means definitely fun - sometimes. However, not at all times. The train is certainly more relaxing. And ask Al Gore about the CO2 emission.

Don't mind.
Chris

The winter road crews very aggressively work to keep the roads clear, with the priorities being the autobahns and the bundestrassen (secondary roads). However, like anywhere else, if the snow gets ahead of them and accidents snarl up the roads, you may be in for a rough time if it snows. You won't need the 4WD if you are going to be staying on the main roads, just make sure you get a rental with snow tires if the forecast is calling for snow.

If you do drive, don't expect crazy autobahn speeds as you are going to be driving on very busy roads. The area you are planning on driving in has a high population density, and lots and lots of drivers who will also be driving over the holiday.

Maybe I am the only one, but I would consider a car

- if you have more than one piece of luggage per person
- are used to drive in Europe (manual (Stick) vs. automatic)
- do not look on the fuel prices
- can handle streets under winter conditions - the A3 goes up and down through Westerwald and could be icy in winter if the weather is cold. An SUV would not make any difference on icy roads.
- have no problem to park the car in Monheim.

Most cars have an sign for outside temperature in the dashboard and give you information if roads can be slippery if wet. I would not see snow as that big problems as the A 3 is a six lane highway (three lanes in each direction) and if it snows at least two lanes are usually cleaned quite quickly. At least this was the case in the four of five times I had snow on the A 3 between Montabaur and Limburg in 2008, 2010 and 2011.

And if we have snow, the train will be affected as well as airtraffic will be.

Maybe I am the only one, but I would consider a car

You're not the only one who said that driving would also be a viable option (look at my earlier post, for example). The option that most of us deem unviable is flying.

However... in addition to all the other arguments that have already been put in favour of taking the train one should perhaps also consider the fact that the OP will (as far as we know) have come off a transatlantic flight the previous day, and that their body time will be several hours behind Central European Time... which makes a drive on Monday morning (= middle of the night body time) somewhat inadvisable

hmmm...all good arguments, looks like I'm almost back to where I started as both sides have their pros and cons, I'll throw flying out. Having a look on random Mondays shows train tickets at around 60-70 EUR each, so price is equal. Looks like I should have included more background:
-We fly in on the 23rd from STX
-We're familiar with the autobahns, fuel prices etc. from a road trip we took last year from Dusseldorf across to Dresden, Prague, Munich, around the Bodensee, Zurich, Stuttgart, Koln, and back to Dusseldorf
-Having grown up in the snow / mountains I'm familiar with driving in winter weather
-Never had a car with an automatic
-Will probably have a bag and a carry on each

Something else to throw in the ring is that on the 26th my mother in law flies in to DUS and we could either pick her up at the airport or at Langenfeld train station. So I think we're tossing up between being able to relax on the train or having the car for 3 days and more room during the trip.

hmmm...all good arguments, looks like I'm almost back to where I started as both sides have their pros and cons, I'll throw flying out. Having a look on random Mondays shows train tickets at around 60-70 EUR each, so price is equal.

Prices for that route start at 19 EUR (for a non-changeable, non-refundable super-saver) - but they only release a very small number of tickets at that price, and they tend to get snatched up pretty quickly. Tickets become available 92 days before the day of travel, so if you are considering train travel you should check at the end of September to see what's available (and perhaps even defer your "train vs car" decision until then).

Driving is certainly a viable alternative, I think my only concern would be the fatigue/jetlag factor. Your body time will be five (I think) hours behind German time, you will probably wake up quite late that first morning (I always do after crossing the Atlantic), a train journey will give you a chance to rest a bit more. But our bodies all react differently to time changes, so this may not be a major issue for you.

(...)
Something else to throw in the ring is that on the 26th my mother in law flies in to DUS and we could either pick her up at the airport or at Langenfeld train station. So I think we're tossing up between being able to relax on the train or having the car for 3 days and more room during the trip.

In this case I would take the car. I have never had any problems with driving jetlaged, but keep this in mind, so not highspeed driving. Sixt e.g. has an outlet in the Westin in Frankfurt and picking the car their might save you the high rates of parking at Frankfurt Hotels, all major car rentals have at least an outlet a Frankfurt main station. Get a car with (a built in) Navigation and driving should be easy. All cars rented during the winter period (app. November to March usually have snow tyres / tires )

And be nice and pick your mother in law up at DUS.

Prices for that route start at 19 EUR (for a non-changeable, non-refundable super-saver) - but they only release a very small number of tickets at that price, and they tend to get snatched up pretty quickly. Tickets become available 92 days before the day of travel, so if you are considering train travel you should check at the end of September to see what's available (and perhaps even defer your "train vs car" decision until then).


Good to know, we'll probably make that the deciding factor meaning holding off until tickets are available. How much of a difference is there between 1st and 2nd class? In China the price difference was minimal and the first class seats were much more comfy

All cars rented during the winter period (app. November to March usually have snow tyres / tires )

And be nice and pick your mother in law up at DUS.

So do we need to pay the extra $60 USD for the "optional" winter tyres that some of the companies are charging if they will be on the car already? Or will they add that to the rental price regardless of if we select it or not?

Good to know, we'll probably make that the deciding factor meaning holding off until tickets are available. How much of a difference is there between 1st and 2nd class? In China the price difference was minimal and the first class seats were much more comfy

First class is generally 150% of second class - though there have been occasions when I've travelled in first for less than the cost of the cheapest available second class ticket because the second class savers had sold out and the first class ones were still available.

There is not much difference between the two as far as seat comfort is concerned, but you get more space in first class - seats are generally 2-1 whereas second class is 2-2.

So do we need to pay the extra $60 USD for the "optional" winter tyres that some of the companies are charging if they will be on the car already? Or will they add that to the rental price regardless of if we select it or not?

Depends on the company you use. Some comapnies have cars without winter tyres in their fleet. Sixt, which I usually use, has a box which I can check and I check it to avoid any trouble with the insurance of my credit card. But I usually rent short time and 5 EUR for snow tyres / day is okay for me. Some rates though include it.

Of course you can gamble and not check the box and hope for a car with snow tyres. If they are in the rate, the rate is usually higher than usual. I would say, but other might have other experiences, that it is included in the rate if no checkbox for winter tyres is available.

Two minor corrections: Since a few years ago, the 1st class surcharge is 60%, and even supersaver tickets are refundable until the day before your journey; a 15 EUR cancellation fee applies.

Depends on the company you use. Some comapnies have cars without winter tyres in their fleet. Sixt, which I usually use, has a box which I can check and I check it to avoid any trouble with the insurance of my credit card. But I usually rent short time and 5 EUR for snow tyres / day is okay for me. Some rates though include it.

Of course you can gamble and not check the box and hope for a car with snow tyres. If they are in the rate, the rate is usually higher than usual. I would say, but other might have other experiences, that it is included in the rate if no checkbox for winter tyres is available.

Don't forget that you are due for a fine if there are snowy/icy conditions and you are not driving with winter tires.

The other thing to consider is that there are (still) quite some people driving with summer tires until the first snow comes and strongly believe that the Autobahns are always free of snow and ice - which is impossible to achieve. In this situation you are likely to experience blocked Autobahns because some trucks don't manage to drive up the hills.

It is always some kind of gamble when the first snow comes. If you want to be on the safe side, take the train. However, as already mentions, other considerations might be of importance as well.