India-based Airlines - What ails airlines of India?

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Much has been said about how AI's problems stem from Govt ownership. In the past 9W and IT were showered wit accolades while AI was declared a total failure in spite of it being decidedly better or as good as every EU and NA airline in some respects.
State owned airlines have worked and do work in other countries, as well as im India. Chinese airlines are state owned/subsidised/directed. Many other airlines, such as JAL, BA, and others were state owned at one time. AI itself was a decent airline even under govt control.
What has changed? The simple argument of govt ownership does not fly as the same complaints one heard about AI are now heard about 9W, which was cited as a model of sucess od private ownership without political interference from politicians and administratibe and operational interference of babus!
Clearly politicians and babus cannot be blamed for disaster at IT, or alleged race to the bottom, of 9W.
What's wrong with Indian aviation industry that botj public and pribate models have failed after having succeeded?
I know some complaints about 9W are baseless, and made by people, who do not understand what they may reasonably expect from an airline. The same was and is true of AI too, to a lesser degree.
Despite instituionalised corruption at all levels of governments in India, central, state and local, I am not prepared to accept that it's the government alone.
What ails airlines of India? Why is there so much disafgectation, not just AI, but also with airlines that were supposed to have been run well, and gave AI a black eye?

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Much has been said about how AI's problems stem from Govt ownership. In the past 9W and IT were showered wit accolades while AI was declared a total failure in spite of it being decidedly better or as good as every EU and NA airline in some respects.
State owned airlines have worked and do work in other countries, as well as im India. Chinese airlines are state owned/subsidised/directed. Many other airlines, such as JAL, BA, and others were state owned at one time. AI itself was a decent airline even under govt control.
What has changed? The simple argument of govt ownership does not fly as the same complaints one heard about AI are now heard about 9W, which was cited as a model of sucess od private ownership without political interference from politicians and administratibe and operational interference of babus!
Clearly politicians and babus cannot be blamed for disaster at IT, or alleged race to the bottom, of 9W.
What's wrong with Indian aviation industry that botj public and pribate models have failed after having succeeded?
I know some complaints about 9W are baseless, and made by people, who do not understand what they may reasonably expect from an airline. The same was and is true of AI too, to a lesser degree.
Despite instituionalised corruption at all levels of governments in India, central, state and local, I am not prepared to accept that it's the government alone.
What ails airlines of India? Why is there so much disafgectation, not just AI, but also with airlines that were supposed to have been run well, and gave AI a black eye?

To me its very basic, Air Travel was a novelty not long time ago but Airlines decided to woo the upper class train travelers with rock bottom fares. These rock bottom fares were not sustainable but provided vital Passenger Flown data for more capital infusement.

Oil prices soared and so did losses, plus believe it or not overheads are way too much for Indian carriers, like sending cars for Pilot/FA pickup, these add up. Oil prices on average are about 35% more than anywhere outside India, so you playing catch up already and it just snowballs

Whether govt owned or not, there's too much red tape to get any thing done and then in some instances regulations are regularly flouted as the concerned babu turns blind eye in return of favors.

Not proper route planning in terms of promoting major cities as hub so not much thru traffic. No contingency plans in case of major disruptions which leads to staff running like head less chickens.

Also, please don't discount the effect of 2 month gap requirement for tourist visa holders, last thing anyone on vacation wants is some bureaucratic hurdle to jump and thus people do skip India and hence potential customers are gone :-(

In nutshell poor planning/forecasting, unnecessary overheads, too much babu giri, not part of major alliances.

Indian aviation industry is suffering due to myopic viewpoint, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

That's my synopsis from personal experience and lots of overheard communications, I'm looking for everybody else s opinions/views

Whether govt owned or not, there's too much red tape to get any thing done and then in some instances regulations are regularly flouted as the concerned babu turns blind eye in return of favors.



This.

Corruption. The leading cause of why nothing ever gets done in India.:(

I would like to say that airline biz globally is ailing. How many airlines have gone under in the last decade? Many. The artificial support by governments does not help the private ones.

Most of my perspective is from the US market but ailing airlines are easy to find.

To me its very basic, Air Travel was a novelty not long time ago but Airlines decided to woo the upper class train travelers with rock bottom fares. These rock bottom fares were not sustainable but provided vital Passenger Flown data for more capital infusement.

Oil prices soared and so did losses, plus believe it or not overheads are way too much for Indian carriers, like sending cars for Pilot/FA pickup, these add up. Oil prices on average are about 35% more than anywhere outside India, so you playing catch up already and it just snowballs

i agree 100%....

No matter where you go in the world, calling the aviation industry "profitable" is generous - when you look over significant periods of time, pretty much every airline loses lots of money. Add the fact that aviation is a capital intensive industry, and it's really a poor investment.

That said, there are a variety of things which hurt Indian carriers specifically. The most notable is the massive taxes levied, on fuel, on tickets, etc. Indian aviation has a very high tax burden, and that is undoubtedly hurting the aviation industry badly.

Another notable factor that is killing every airline is mismanagement. Hindsight is always 20/20, but when we look back, almost every airline has made some serious blunders...

There are other issues with Indian aviation - lots of competition (low yields), high price sensitivity of passengers, inefficient route networks (traffic flows are point to point), poor regulation, obstructionist government, poor infrastructure, etc. They all need to be addressed as well. But a more favorable tax climate and better management would significantly improve the health of every Indian carrier.

Another thing which you brought up in the OP was Air India. AI has a variety of problems - not only political interference and corruption, but also structural issues that need to be addressed.

Political interference and corruption obviously need no explanation. However, there are a lot of other factors at play which contribute to AI's problems. Most notably is the government inefficiency - AI has been trying for years now to lease out their 77Ls. However, the government process is so painstaking and long (when you look at it, they seem to have to apply for approvals from practically every ministry in the GoI) that no airline is willing to wait it out. TK was interested in AI's 777s, but they leased 9W's instead, since they could get them much faster.
Another example is advertising on the back of boarding passes, or cancelling routes with incredibly low load factors, or accepting compensation packages for late aircraft (cough). Which reminds me, an update is in order - the CCEA will not make a decision on the 787 compensation package until Thursday, when 3 different committees will present their findings about the package. The fact that they have to go through all these ridiculous practices even after the AI board and management have agreed to the deal is precisely the problem faced...
However, escaping the committee culture is not possible as long as AI is a PSU. Along with that, AI has to painstakingly document everything they do, since they are answerable to the government. This causes a lot of inefficiency, but they can't avoid it - the minute they do, corruption is the first allegation levied.

That doesn't mean that AI being a PSU doesn't have any advantages - there are many advantages of state-owned carriers. Sadly, GoI doesn't take advantage of many of these advantages with AI.

There are problems with privatization too - it's not a silver bullet. But it's probably a better option than continuing this madness. A partial privatization (GoI holds onto 49% of AI) would probably allow the best of both worlds, although I'm not confident AI could take advantage of that...

Regardless, AI is an extremely complex story which probably deserves its own discussion.

I would like to say that airline biz globally is ailing. How many airlines have gone under in the last decade? Many. The artificial support by governments does not help the private ones.

Most of my perspective is from the US market but ailing airlines are easy to find.

U.S. airlines are not doing too bad, with the exception of AA.

No matter where you go in the world, calling the aviation industry "profitable" is generous - when you look over significant periods of time, pretty much every airline loses lots of money. Add the fact that aviation is a capital intensive industry, and it's really a poor investment.

That said, there are a variety of things which hurt Indian carriers specifically. The most notable is the massive taxes levied, on fuel, on tickets, etc. Indian aviation has a very high tax burden, and that is undoubtedly hurting the aviation industry badly.

Another notable factor that is killing every airline is mismanagement. Hindsight is always 20/20, but when we look back, almost every airline has made some serious blunders...

There are other issues with Indian aviation - lots of competition (low yields), high price sensitivity of passengers, inefficient route networks (traffic flows are point to point), poor regulation, obstructionist government, poor infrastructure, etc. They all need to be addressed as well. But a more favorable tax climate and better management would significantly improve the health of every Indian carrier.

Another thing which you brought up in the OP was Air India. AI has a variety of problems - not only political interference and corruption, but also structural issues that need to be addressed.

Political interference and corruption obviously need no explanation. However, there are a lot of other factors at play which contribute to AI's problems. Most notably is the government inefficiency - AI has been trying for years now to lease out their 77Ls. However, the government process is so painstaking and long (when you look at it, they seem to have to apply for approvals from practically every ministry in the GoI) that no airline is willing to wait it out. TK was interested in AI's 777s, but they leased 9W's instead, since they could get them much faster.
Another example is advertising on the back of boarding passes, or cancelling routes with incredibly low load factors, or accepting compensation packages for late aircraft (cough). Which reminds me, an update is in order - the CCEA will not make a decision on the 787 compensation package until Thursday, when 3 different committees will present their findings about the package. The fact that they have to go through all these ridiculous practices even after the AI board and management have agreed to the deal is precisely the problem faced...
However, escaping the committee culture is not possible as long as AI is a PSU. Along with that, AI has to painstakingly document everything they do, since they are answerable to the government. This causes a lot of inefficiency, but they can't avoid it - the minute they do, corruption is the first allegation levied.

That doesn't mean that AI being a PSU doesn't have any advantages - there are many advantages of state-owned carriers. Sadly, GoI doesn't take advantage of many of these advantages with AI.

There are problems with privatization too - it's not a silver bullet. But it's probably a better option than continuing this madness. A partial privatization (GoI holds onto 49% of AI) would probably allow the best of both worlds, although I'm not confident AI could take advantage of that...

Regardless, AI is an extremely complex story which probably deserves its own discussion.
My intent was to focus on what the airlines did wrong, as opposed to blaming, a whole assortment of circumstances that all airlines of India face. The tax burden, regulations are the same for every Indian carrier. Fuel-- foreign carriers pay the same price for fuel in India as Indian carriers do. An airline cannot change Govt policies, nor the fundamental instincts of an average Indian passenger. Every airline serving the Indian market depend on the same Indian price sensitive consumer. Oil price increases are the same for every one too. While it's true that airlines don't show spectacular and consistent profits, but it's a rare market where every full service airline is on its deathbed.
Even Indian Railways, whose most popular fares are heavily subsidised is making a profit despite all the disadvantages of being a Govt owned enterprise.
Blaming the Govt, its policies w.r.t taxation, and regulation, lack of infrastructure, corruption,and anything else that comes with India, isn't going to turn them around.
Fares are two low to sustain an airline, let alone generate profits.

In my opinion Indian airlines have put themselves in a bind, by trying to be full service carriers flying passengers at LCC prices. Low prices and generous benefits have raised expectations of passengers that any cost cutting or price rationalisation is met with loud protests and even name calling. Airlines themselves are to blame.
The one rational change they should make, they can't. Sooner or later, they have to bite the bullet and raise fares. This would mean fewer, passengers, who will pay enough to at least meet the costs and smaller, more efficient network.

I agree with DELANRDFW that was there was fore planning. Airlines grew like mushrooms. They thought all they needed was planes, since passengers were already there waiting to take off, as India entered the new millennium with visions of future, which was taken for granted. They thought they will piggy back the growth of Indian economy without a plan.



Fares are too low to sustain the airlines. Let alone make them profitable.

My intent was to focus on what the airlines did wrong, as opposed to blaming, a whole assortment of circumstances that all airlines of India face. The tax burden, regulations are the same for every Indian carrier. All the airlines of India are facing the same burden, yes. But then all the airlines of India are unprofitable.

Fuel-- foreign carriers pay the same price for fuel in India as Indian carriers do. Not true. ATF has sky-high taxes in India, and the suppliers have a monopoly.

This means that ATF is far more expensive in India than in most other countries. For an airline in a more airline friendly environment, ATF might be 25 to 30 percent of their operating costs. For the carriers of India, it's far more - upto 45 or 50 percent. That's a very significant impact.


An airline cannot change Govt policies, nor the fundamental instincts of an average Indian passenger. Indeed. But in the current environment, something has to give. There is too much capacity, competition, and the regulatory environment is not airline friendly. Even for a well-managed carrier like IndiGo, profit is practically impossible.


Every airline serving the Indian market depend on the same Indian price sensitive consumer. Oil price increases are the same for every one too. While it's true that airlines don't show spectacular and consistent profits, but it's a rare market where every full service airline is on its deathbed.
And something will have to give soon enough. The current state of the industry is unsustainable.



Even Indian Railways, whose most popular fares are heavily subsidised is making a profit despite all the disadvantages of being a Govt owned enterprise. Mango to Banana comparison.



Blaming the Govt, its policies w.r.t taxation, and regulation, lack of infrastructure, corruption,and anything else that comes with India, isn't going to turn them around. True. But it does explain why they are all losing money.


Fares are two low to sustain an airline, let alone generate profits.
Agreed. That is for a variety of reasons - 1) carriers want to compete with Indian Railways AC classes, and 2) Air India is effectively acting as the price setter for FSCs, with the other FSCs (when they existed) forced to match fares.



In my opinion Indian airlines have put themselves in a bind, by trying to be full service carriers flying passengers at LCC prices. Low prices and generous benefits have raised expectations of passengers that any cost cutting or price rationalisation is met with loud protests and even name calling. Airlines themselves are to blame. Agreed, prices need to be higher. However, costs also need to be lower. If ATF taxes were eliminated (no other factors), the fuel burden would drop so much that SG, 9W, and IT would all be profitable (those are the only listed carriers, no official data from other airlines).

Even with the fare drop which would probably come with the fuel price cut, the improvements in profitability are very significant.



The one rational change they should make, they can't. Sooner or later, they have to bite the bullet and raise fares. This would mean fewer, passengers, who will pay enough to at least meet the costs and smaller, more efficient network. Agreed, fares need to be raised. But why are fares so low in the first place? Competition, too much capacity, trying to compete with Rail, Air India interfering with the market, etc. all need to be addressed before prices will rise.


I agree with DELANRDFW that was there was fore planning. Airlines grew like mushrooms. They thought all they needed was planes, since passengers were already there waiting to take off, as India entered the new millennium with visions of future, which was taken for granted. They thought they will piggy back the growth of Indian economy without a plan. Quite right. And that is still continuing today - I can name 8 or 9 airlines trying to start up right now, all with obvious flaws in their business models. I just don't understand how they will compete.

All the airlines of India are facing the same burden, yes. But then all the airlines of India are unprofitable.
Unprofitable us an understatement. They are more like fighting for survival.
Not true. ATF has sky-high taxes in India, and the suppliers have a monopoly.

This means that ATF is far more expensive in India than in most other countries. For an airline in a more airline friendly environment, ATF might be 25 to 30 percent of their operating costs. For the carriers of India, it's far more - upto 45 or 50 percent. That's a very significant impact.
Price in other countries is immaterial. Are you saying that Indian carriers pay more for fuel than LH or EK does when both buy fuel from DEL? As far as I know, all airline that buys fuel from, say, DEL, pay the same price. BTW< Now they are allowed to import their own fuel. So the monopoly is not an absolute monopoly.



Mango to Banana comparison.
Yes, but they are both fruit. IR suffers from low fares, pilfferage, corruption, and ticket less travel, that airlines don;t have to contend with.


True. But it does explain why they are all losing money.
They are all losing money because they don;t know how to make money. They tried to grow too fast, with no foundation.

Agreed. That is for a variety of reasons - 1) carriers want to compete with Indian Railways AC classes, and 2) Air India is effectively acting as the price setter for FSCs, with the other FSCs (when they existed) forced to match fares. I have heard that. Someone who is paying for FAC on IR, would not mind paying more, if air travel provided them a benefit that they values, such as speed. . Trying to leisure FAC passengers who are price sensitive is WRONG strategy for India at this time.


Agreed, prices need to be higher. However, costs also need to be lower. If ATF taxes were eliminated (no other factors), the fuel burden would drop so much that SG, 9W, and IT would all be profitable (those are the only listed carriers, no official data from other airlines).
Talking about cutting costs that airlines cannot cut unilaterally is not a solution. The problem is the airlines can't even cut the costs that they control, for fear of losing their customers.


Agreed, fares need to be raised. But why are fares so low in the first place? Competition, too much capacity, trying to compete with Rail, Air India interfering with the market, etc. all need to be addressed before prices will rise.

Quite right. And that is still continuing today - I can name 8 or 9 airlines trying to start up right now, all with obvious flaws in their business models. I just don't understand how they will compete.[/QUOTE]

Low fares, excess capacity, all come from the same source, herd mentality. Even a street hawker knows the benefits of undercutting his competitor. But running an airline is not the same as selling peanuts at a street corner. Everyone wanted to cash in in on the Indian growth, with no plans. It's easy. They thought. Chinese and other Asian airlines were growing. Why won't Indian airlines grow? That was the thinking. No one has any idea about what kind of market its they want to serve. Smaller networks with reduced capacity will be better able to sustain increased fares regardess of Govt policies.

Price in other countries is immaterial. Are you saying that Indian carriers pay more for fuel than LH or EK does when both buy fuel from DEL? As far as I know, all airline that buys fuel from, say, DEL, pay the same price. BTW< Now they are allowed to import their own fuel. So the monopoly is not an absolute monopoly.


That's a fair point. But the point is that this additional cost is a very heavy burden, especially in an (extremely) low margin industry such as aviation.

Airlines are losing money because fares are too low and costs are too high. The high fuel price is affecting the latter.

Yes, but they are both fruit. IR suffers from low fares, pilfferage, corruption, and ticket less travel, that airlines don;t have to contend with.

Indeed, the air carriers and the Indian Railways are both in the transport industry. That's about where the similarity ends. IR and AoI face completely different challenges and competitive pressures.

And regardless, I have to refute that IR is profitable - last I heard, they are on pace to lose $1.2 billion (almost 7 thousand crores) this year.


They are all losing money because they don;t know how to make money. They tried to grow too fast, with no foundation.
That is definitely a problem which airlines of India are facing.


I have heard that. Someone who is paying for FAC on IR, would not mind paying more, if air travel provided them a benefit that they values, such as speed. . Trying to leisure FAC passengers who are price sensitive is WRONG strategy for India at this time. Agreed.



Low fares, excess capacity, all come from the same source, herd mentality. Even a street hawker knows the benefits of undercutting his competitor. But running an airline is not the same as selling peanuts at a street corner. Everyone wanted to cash in in on the Indian growth, with no plans. It's easy. They thought. Chinese and other Asian airlines were growing. Why won't Indian airlines grow? That was the thinking. No one has any idea about what kind of market its they want to serve. Smaller networks with reduced capacity will be better able to sustain increased fares regardess of Govt policies.

Agree 100%.

I put it down to three broad areas:

1. External: Government support, interference, infrastructure and fuel prices are definitely significant factors.

2. Internal: But in my opinion the single largest contributor has been mismanagement. And I use that term broadly, to include financials, operations, quality, service levels, schizophrenia, network structure (specifically, domestic connectivity), staffing and agility. Not to mention disastrous mergers and a rash of other decisions that were, well, dumb. At least our "Big Three" are shockingly inept in all of those areas that are completely within their control.

There's also a third factor, albeit an extension of #2: that they're all flying the same routes, give or take. Overall overcapacity is one thing, but here we have everyone wanting to fly from the same two airports to the same set of destinations, domestically and internationally. It is untenable.

That's a fair point. But the point is that this additional cost is a very heavy burden, especially in an (extremely) low margin industry such as aviation.
Airlines are losing money because fares are too low and costs are too high. The high fuel price is affecting the latter.
I don't disagree that fuel pries are high and a burden. But.... Even an auto driver, or a taxi driver knows can make money even with high fuel (petrol) prices. If a cabbie starts offering limousine services,
at cab fares and complains about high fuel prices and govt regulation you will laugh at him. Fares and "freebies/promises" have to be rationalised. I am amazed at the entitlement mentality I see here, with the exception of a few reasonable posters. Airlines have actively courted this disaster. People WILL complain when you withdraw a benefit.

Indeed, the air carriers and the Indian Railways are both in the transport industry. That's about where the similarity ends. IR and AoI face completely different challenges and competitive pressures.

And regardless, I have to refute that IR is profitable - last I heard, they are on pace to lose $1.2 billion (almost 7 thousand crores) this year.

Surely you don't think I am saying that the two are the same!
There are broad similarities between the two, though there are differences too. IR is probably not profitable every year, I know it wasn't for many years. The point is that IR is not dying. It can't raise fares. There is corruption, Govt interference and everything else, you say is wrong with AI. Additionally, there are also rogue travellers, some of whom now fly. YET, IR is on the go. I won't call it a good operation, but a tolerable one. given the circumstances in India.
Low fares have attracted some of the least revenue generating passengers to air. And airlines sought to please everyone, instead of rewarding those who generate revenue. This at a time when most airlines, were finding ways to devalue status. My family went from Silver to Platinum over the course of a few years in early 2000's because Silver was a joke, until we decide to give up the chase. That's good response. You don't get what you want as a silver/gold, become gold/platinum, or move to another airline. I know people who have abandoned loyalty in favour of a combination of schedule, amenities/comfort and price.
Within India, they don;t have to compete with EK, TK, LH or SQ. It's silly to knock each other out unconscious.
It's not just limousine service at cab fares, but promising limousine service to any one taking a cab, even if it's not your cab. Elite FFP members are an asset as well as a liability. With no alliance support, Jet Airways allowed people to pile miles on "partners" and is now saddled with this dilemma of trying to keep its elites happy.
When you have three airlines flying the same route, all offering low fares, limousine service card does not play well, especially when you haven't got deep pockets like AI does. Loyalty is fickle, especially if you haven't got millions of miles unused or a million miler type of status. Undercutting your competitor is a two edged sword which airlines are staring at now.

I don't disagree that fuel pries are high and a burden. But.... Even an auto driver, or a taxi driver knows can make money even with high fuel (petrol) prices. If a cabbie starts offering limousine services,
at cab fares and complains about high fuel prices and govt regulation you will laugh at him. Fares and "freebies/promises" have to be rationalised. I am amazed at the entitlement mentality I see here, with the exception of a few reasonable posters. Airlines have actively courted this disaster. People WILL complain when you withdraw a benefit.


The Indian carriers aren't offering cab fares. The fares offered are competitive with flights of similar stage lengths in other major countries.

That obviously should not be the case - if costs are higher, fares should also be higher. But raising fares is easier said than done.


Surely you don't think I am saying that the two are the same!
There are broad similarities between the two, though there are differences too. IR is probably not profitable every year, I know it wasn't for many years. The point is that IR is not dying. It can't raise fares. There is corruption, Govt interference and everything else, you say is wrong with AI. Additionally, there are also rogue travellers, some of whom now fly. YET, IR is on the go. I won't call it a good operation, but a tolerable one. given the circumstances in India.

There are broad similarities. Both are unprofitable. Both deal with corruption, gov't interference, bloated workforce, rogue travelers, etc. etc.

Both have tolerable operations (AI's is superior in many ways).

If Indian Railways can be looked at as a success story, I don't see how AI is a failure.

Personally, I see both as failures - corruption, gov't interference, bloated workforce, rogue travelers, and every other problem they have need to be stamped out.

That doesn't change the fact that travel in IR and AI is usually a good experience (or at the very least, a good value for money) for the passenger.



Low fares have attracted some of the least revenue generating passengers to air. And airlines sought to please everyone, instead of rewarding those who generate revenue. This at a time when most airlines, were finding ways to devalue status. My family went from Silver to Platinum over the course of a few years in early 2000's because Silver was a joke, until we decide to give up the chase. That's good response. You don't get what you want as a silver/gold, become gold/platinum, or move to another airline. I know people who have abandoned loyalty in favour of a combination of schedule, amenities/comfort and price.
Within India, they don;t have to compete with EK, TK, LH or SQ. It's silly to knock each other out unconscious.
It's not just limousine service at cab fares, but promising limousine service to any one taking a cab, even if it's not your cab. Elite FFP members are an asset as well as a liability. With no alliance support, Jet Airways allowed people to pile miles on "partners" and is now saddled with this dilemma of trying to keep its elites happy.
When you have three airlines flying the same route, all offering low fares, limousine service card does not play well, especially when you haven't got deep pockets like AI does. Loyalty is fickle, especially if you haven't got millions of miles unused or a million miler type of status. Undercutting your competitor is a two edged sword which airlines are staring at now.

I have no disagreement here.

If Indian Railways can be looked at as a success story, I don't see how AI is a failure.

Personally, I see both as failures

Isn't that a bit harsh? While both have their problems, they still form a very important part of the transportation system.

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More pearls of wisdom from a textbook? Or simply a case of une vie en AI ?

The railways are essential to the functioning of this country; AI are not.

Air India could die tomorrow and 99% of the population wouldn't register a little temporary blip on their radars (and that's being generous). Shut even one line of the railways for a single day and all hell will break loose.

Isn't that a bit harsh? While both have their problems, they still form a very important part of the transportation system.

Both AI and IR are an important part of India's transportation system.

But they could be better. Far better. Wasting tax dollars the way IR and AI both do is not acceptable. Is there a better solution? That's a harder question. But there is no doubt that the current situation is not ideal for AI or for IR.

Air India could die tomorrow and 99% of the population wouldn't register a little temporary blip on their radars (and that's being generous). Shut even one line of the railways for a single day and all hell will break loose.

The next time there is an ICPA strike, please observe the hell which breaks loose.

The impact would not be the same, because 1) AI doesn't have monopoly and 2) air travel isn't something the common man deals with normally.

However, the aviation sector is extremely important to the economy. The extranet of AI is far reaching, especially domestically. Shutting it down would have a major impact which would definitely be widely noticed.

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PVDtoDEL, my intent was to focus on those airlines that are not encumbered with common ailments associated with PSUs.

The two private sector full service airlines, that were shown off as models of success by fickle loyalists are struggling. Conventional wisdom was AI sucks. IT anf 9W represented, successful, confident India. What happened? AI will survive and muddle along.

Bom-Del is among the most heavily travelled routes. Is there that much evonomuc activity in India? The private carriers went for the low hanging fruit, withour a strategy other than undercutting IC, with fares comparable with IRFAC. You are nit happy with the "limousine service for cab fair", you can call it AI service for IR fare strategy adopted by private carriers.

The euphoria of Indian miracle also played a role in creation of excess capacity.



I have not cited IR as a model of success, and you know, have been more sympathtic to AI than the buzz coming from the low hanging fruit.... ..... buzzzzzzzz smash..... buzzzzzz swat. :D

The extranet of AI is far reaching, especially domestically. Shutting it down would have a major impact which would definitely be widely noticed.
Interesting. Does anyone know or have a list of domestic destinations that are only served by AI and no other carrier?

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Whoever suggested the country goes without air transport?

Fortunately for us, there are several perfectly acceptable alternatives to Air India. Jet and Indigo and Kingfisher and Archana and Lite and Spice and Jagson and Go may not be near as fantastic as Air India, but they can fill the shrinking hole AI will leave in the wake of their (hopeful) disappearance with minimal effort.

And no, no one will give a crap, relatively speaking, if a few hundred rich, pampered pilots go on an attention whoremongering strike.

But yes, there is absolutely every reason to continue pouring tax rupees (our tax revenues are not dollar denominated) into the railways. As an entity, the railways are essential and with no alternatives.

There is zero need to spend even one taxpayer paisa on Air India.

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More pearls of wisdom from a textbook? Or simply a case of une vie en AI ?

The railways are essential to the functioning of this country; AI are not.

Air India could die tomorrow and 99% of the population wouldn't register a little temporary blip on their radars (and that's being generous). Shut even one line of the railways for a single day and all hell will break loose.

Unable to grasp the importance of air transport while compalining about not being upgraded to Businees class, is the real pearl here.
If you were not seated in business class, not even the remaining 1% would care. This entitlement mentality has something to do with what airlines are facing now. Unlike your kneejerk reaction about AI.

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The extranet of AI is far reaching, especially domestically. Shutting it down would have a major impact which would definitely be widely noticed.
Interesting. Does anyone know or have a list of domestic destinations that are only served by AI and no other carrier?

Only a few remain (places in the northeast and the likes of Pathankot) and simple legislation / subsidies can address the problem where there's genuine need for air transport.

Either way, it's certainly nothing anywhere near the supposed catastrophe that awaits rural India were Air India to die tomorrow.

PVDtoDEL, my intent was to focus on those airlines that are not encumbered with common ailments associated with PSUs.
The two private sector full service airlines, that were shown off as models of success by ****le loyalists are struggling. Conventional wisdom was AI sucks. IT anf 9W represented, successful, confident India. What happened? AI will survive and muddle along. There is some truth in that conventional wisdom - if AI didn't have such deep pockets, it would have been gone years ago.

That said, I guess you also have a point - AI does have deep pockets. Taxes are high. Fuel is expensive. Indian Rail is a very formidable competitor, especially on shorter routes.

Considering all these factors were known beforehand, the airlines should have managed themselves in a way which would be successful. Now that they've failed, they go and blame all these factors which they already knew about.

That doesn't change the fact that reform is needed - these problems need to be addressed. But the fact that airlines keep expanding at ridiculous pace, drowning in capacity, with little clear strategy is definitely mismanagement.



I have not cited IR as a model of success, and you know, have been more sympathtic to AI than the buzz coming from the low hanging fruit.... ..... buzzzzzzzz smash..... buzzzzzz swat. :D

:D

Interesting. Does anyone know or have a list of domestic destinations that are only served by AI and no other carrier?

What relevance does this have? :confused:


Whoever suggested the country goes without air transport? If IR shut down, why should the country go without rail transport? Should the railways not be liberalized, to allow private competition and hopefully improve the system? The ghost of India's planned economy is still very much there.

The same inflated bureaucracy, the same corruption, the same inefficiency that ails AI also ails the railways.

Fortunately for us, there are several perfectly acceptable alternatives to Air India. Jet and Indigo and Kingfisher and Archana and Lite and Spice and Jagson and Go may not be near as fantastic as Air India, but they can fill the shrinking hole AI will leave in the wake of their (hopeful) disappearance with minimal effort. AI has 1/5 of domestic ASKs. There is no way that the private carriers can fill this gap with "minimal effort"

There would be very significant (albeit relatively short term) economic effects of shutting down AI tomorrow. These effects would be more than enough for people to notice.


And no, no one will give a crap, relatively speaking, if a few hundred rich, pampered pilots go on an attention whoremongering strike. Except for the people who were ticketed to fly on those flights. Or the people who expected cargo to be flown on those flights. Or the people who depended on the other people who were effected by the strike. There are many, many people who would care about a potential ICPA strike.

A one day strike would affect tens of thousands of people directly, not to mention indirect effects. Imagine the havoc caused by a 2 week strike.

The extranet of AI is far reaching, especially domestically. Shutting it down would have a major impact which would definitely be widely noticed. ?

Interesting. Does anyone know or have a list of domestic destinations that are only served by AI and no other carrier?

What relevance does this have? :confused:

To me the relevance is very obvious. The claim that shutting AI down would have a "major impact" is only relevant for those markets and destinations (like perhaps a few in the North East) where the AI link (typically to CCU for those remote North East markets) is critical for the local area. And only if there is no back-up or alternatives. Seems, atleast to me, a very obvious link. YMMV.

So I ask again, how many domestic destinations are only served by AI and no other carrier? That to me is a crucial determinant of the importance of AI.

Clearly, those who think that AI can shutdown without any impact on air services, cannot see beyond their nose. One may have multiple airlines serving the city pairs one flies to. One's personal needs does not make a national network.

It's also clear that carriers other than AI are not immune to bad planning and mismanagement or incompetent workers that people call JetChildren.
AI provides can and does provide services that no other airline will..service to Kargil, for example.
AI has performed critical functions that privately owned carriers are unlikely to be willing to perform.
People making judgements on air transport for the entire country based on where they fly expect to be taken seriously?

As long as airlines serve the city they want to go to, and get to travel in Business class, without paying for it, everything is fine. :D

Clearly, those who think that AI can shutdown without any impact on air services, cannot see beyond their nose. One may have multiple airlines serving the city pairs one flies to. One's personal needs does not make a national network.

It's also clear that carriers other than AI are not immune to bad planning and mismanagement or incompetent workers that people call JetChildren.
AI provides can and does provide services that no other airline will..service to Kargil, for example.
AI has performed critical functions that privately owned carriers are unlikely to be willing to perform.
People making judgements on air transport for the entire country based on where they fly expect to be taken seriously?

As long as airlines serve the city they want to go to, and get to travel in Business class, without paying for it, everything is fine. :D

Well said Yaatri

I think that one reason why Indian airlines in general struggle is that I think they do not get as much connecting traffic as other airlines. Part of this is the airline's fault as from the few website searches I have done for JFK SIN I have never seen AI or 9W showing fares or even if they do it is never competitive. Even if they do offer good fares many people avoid them due to the brand image of India being an undeveloped country. People tend to associate the country with its products. I doubt that there is enough demand for O&D traffic.

And for those who are like me (interested in flying them and in getting full miles), then untill recently Indian airlines either did not have major FFP partners or did not give full miles. Lack of alliance membership does hurt.

Clearly, those who think that AI can shutdown without any impact on air services, cannot see beyond their nose.

So convince me with some facts please! How many domestic destinations are only served by AI and no other carrier?

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Clearly, those who think that AI can shutdown without any impact on air services, cannot see beyond their nose.

So convince me with some facts please! How many domestic destinations are only served by AI and no other carrier?

Now this is interesting. Can you convince me, WITH FACTS PLEASE, that:
At least one other airline serves every city served by Air India

There are several airports in the north east and the north where AI is the only airlne operating.
There are mant more where AI serves many cities from that airport whereas other airline(s), if it serves it, serve(s) one or two cities from that airport.
One airport with only AI service is not that far from Delhi.

I know what I am talking about. Do you?

Now this is interesting. Can you convince me, WITH FACTS PLEASE, that:
At least one other airline serves every city served by Air IndiaThere is none! But just because there is one huge monster, doesn't mean you have to keep feeding it.

There are several airports in the north east and the north where AI is the only airlne operating.
There are mant more where AI serves many cities from that airport whereas other airline(s), if it serves it, serve(s) one or two cities from that airport.
One airport with only AI service is not that far from Delhi.

I know what I am talking about. Do you?
Like I said earlier, I am happy to be convinced. If you are able to present a rational argument that is.

All I have seen so far seen are a lot of swings and roundabouts, but not one direct answer, to a question I genuinely want to understand.

Does such a list of AI exclusive destinations exist somewhere? What are the "several airports" that are being referred to?

So convince me with some facts please! How many domestic destinations are only served by AI and no other carrier?

Here's the whopping list (give or take) with surprisingly few north-eastern airports:

Jamnagar
Agatti
Gaya
Gwalior
Ludhiana
Pathankot
Kanpur
Tezpur
Shillong

I'm not even sure if all of them still have regular AI flights and some of them were also served by Kingfisher until fairly recently (and, in theory, remain "suspended").

So convince me with some facts please! How many domestic destinations are only served by AI and no other carrier?

Did you read his post?


AI provides can and does provide services that no other airline will..service to Kargil, for example.

AI has performed critical functions that privately owned carriers are unlikely to be willing to perform.

In addition, AI shutting down would get rid of 20% of ASKs, regardless of which route pairs they are flying. Wiping out 1/5 of the air service in a country will have a major impact regardless of which routes they are serving.

Hahahah! Quelle naïveté, grossly overestimating the National Beggar's contribution to the economy. Besides their non-existent importance, they take far more from the exchequer then they ever will contribute.

Fact is, Air India will inconvenience less people by ceasing to operate than they do by operating.

Fact also is that the National Bhikari already lose less taxpayer money with a big part of the widebody fleet idle than they did when those planes were flying. Extrapolate that to the whole fleet.

I'd wager that the reaction of 99% of the country, were AI to die tomorrow, will not be "doom and gloom". Rather, it will be "flush once more to be safe, to make sure nothing floats back up."

Exceptions to that will largely be limited to those benefiting – directly, indirectly or historically – from forced taxpayer generosity through Air India and those with a misplaced sense of national pride.

Fact also is that the National Bhikari already lose less taxpayer money with a big part of the widebody fleet idle than they did when those planes were flying. Extrapolate that to the whole fleet.


It can't be extrapolated to the whole fleet. If AI shut down tomorrow, the majority of the impact would be from IC shutting down.

In fact, I think selling the widebodies and doubling down on domestic/regional international would probably be a great idea. Prestige routes do little to help the country.

Here's the whopping list (give or take) with surprisingly few north-eastern airports:

Jamnagar
Agatti
Gaya
Gwalior
Ludhiana
Pathankot
Kanpur
Tezpur
Shillong
I'm not even sure if all of them still have regular AI flights and some of them were also served by Kingfisher until fairly recently (and, in theory, remain "suspended").
One ^ for you. I know, you would rather have a free upgrade. But you know my feelings about that. :D

There is none! But just because there is one huge monster, doesn't mean you have to keep feeding it.


Like I said earlier, I am happy to be convinced. If you are able to present a rational argument that is.

All I have seen so far seen are a lot of swings and roundabouts, but not one direct answer, to a question I genuinely want to understand.

Does such a list of AI exclusive destinations exist somewhere? What are the "several airports" that are being referred to?

Not everything one knows, or is of value cannot be learnt from books, internet, or one stop sources. One learns some things by being "aware", incrementally as one goes through life. I do not have a list. I am sure there are ways to search if such a list exists, or compile one by brute force. But that's not the point, is it?

Here's the whopping list (give or take) with surprisingly few north-eastern airports:

Jamnagar
Agatti
Gaya
Gwalior
Ludhiana
Pathankot
Kanpur
Tezpur
Shillong

I'm not even sure if all of them still have regular AI flights and some of them were also served by Kingfisher until fairly recently (and, in theory, remain "suspended").

you are forgetting allahabad....i'm on this flight at least twice a month....

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Here's the whopping list (give or take) with surprisingly few north-eastern airports:

Jamnagar
Agatti
Gaya
Gwalior
Ludhiana
Pathankot
Kanpur
Tezpur
Shillong

I'm not even sure if all of them still have regular AI flights and some of them were also served by Kingfisher until fairly recently (and, in theory, remain "suspended").

you are forgetting allahabad....i'm on this flight at least twice a month....

Who cares Keyser! What's there in
Allahabad? Ganga, Yamuna, Sangam? Ah you mean the state High Court! It's just for people lke you. No one cares, except your clients, if you can't get to Allahabad. Why can't people go to the High Court in Bombay, or Delhi? I am sure they are more advanced! :D
In any case, Kingfisher either used to serve Allahabad, or would have, had its aircraft not been repossessed.
You should not be flying that "bhikari" airline anyway. ;)

Who cares Keyser! What's there in
Allahabad? Ganga, Yamuna, Sangam? Ah you mean the state High Court! It's just for people lke you. No one cares, except your clients, if you can't get to Allahabad. Why can't people go to the High Court in Bombay, or Delhi? I am sure they are more advanced! :D
In any case, Kingfisher either used to serve Allahabad, or would have, had its aircraft not been repossessed.
You should not be flying that "bhikari" airline anyway. ;)

you would be surprised....this flight is always full....i can't remember a single time when this flight had light loads....i've sometimes paid over inr 13k for a one way flight....

i'm there a couple of times a month because of the high court....but i'm sure most of the others are there for other reasons....its also the high court for the largest state in the country so going to delhi & mumbai won't work if you have work in uttar pradesh....

no other airline is serving this route....not kingfisher or jet or any lcc....sahara used to fly here 3-4 times a week but that was ages ago....

you would be surprised....this flight is always full....i can't remember a single time when this flight had light loads....i've sometimes paid over inr 13k for a one way flight....


13k each way for a midday, short ATR flight with a stopover???

What a ripoff.

Sounds like a prime route SG should look at when they are planning their ex-DEL Q400 operation (which hopefully will be up next month).

13k each way for a midday, short ATR flight with a stopover???

What a ripoff.

Sounds like a prime route SG should look at when they are planning their ex-DEL Q400 operation (which hopefully will be up next month).

Agree entirely! :eek: ;)

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13k each way for a midday, short ATR flight with a stopover???

What a ripoff.

Sounds like a prime route SG should look at when they are planning their ex-DEL Q400 operation (which hopefully will be up next month).

Agree entirely! :eek: ;)

I thought the rwo of you believed in supply and demand. :D
What's wrong with making money?
When yoy have to argue before the oldest High Court in all of north India and the first one to be established outside the three presudencies, 13k is nothing.
I guess Allhabad was not glamorous enough for 9W and IT, another ailment of Indian carriers. Follow the herd to London, New York, even SIN and BKK. Go phoreign.

So AJ, are you satisfied with the facts?
I know the business class deprived, dude ignores facts.

I thought the rwo of you believed in supply and demand. :D
What's wrong with making money?
When yoy have to argue before the oldest High Court in all of north India and the first one to be established outside the three presudencies, 13k is nothing.

Oh, I agree completely. Airlines should be making money. But the fact that you can fly from Delhi to Singapore for cheaper than Delhi to Allahabad is rather sad.

While AI is absolutely within its rights to price the route as it wishes, as a customer, I always love competition ;)

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I thought the rwo of you believed in supply and demand. :D
What's wrong with making money?
When yoy have to argue before the oldest High Court in all of north India and the first one to be established outside the three presudencies, 13k is nothing.

Oh, I agree completely. Airlines should be making money. But the fact that you can fly from Delhi to Singapore for cheaper than Delhi to Allahabad is rather sad.

While AI is absolutely within its rights to price the route as it wishes, as a customer, I always love competition ;)

I am sure you do, as Keyser's clients will too.
But remember our expert has decared such routes to be worthless. :D Allahabad is insignificant too, as are Trzpur, Shillong and Pathankot.
I know the Indian Army and the people of Tezpur have always felt different.

[So AJ, are you satisfied with the facts?
Only to the degree that there a some (10-20 odd) destinations where even though there may not be direct commercial motivation for regular air service, there are most certainly local economic and national security implications that mean these destinations must continue to have air links. Eg. like Kargil, Leh, Agatti, Tezpur, Bagdogra etc.

IMHO, the govt should most definitely support these routes, but only these routes. Whether that is thru AI or thru route specific subsidy using other carriers, I do not mind.

There is still, IMHO, no justification whatsoever for the govt to subside even one single flight on AI's international route network.

Maybe AI should just be reduced to a limited domestic national carrier serving specific markets that are needed from a national security perspective... From the commercial routes let the survival of the fittest philospohy operate.

There is still, IMHO, no justification whatsoever for the govt to subside even one single flight on AI's international route network.


I have to agree with you here. When a (baker's) dozen of AI's international (essentially prestige) routes are responsible for almost 75% of their losses, I simply cannot understand how the government can justify not cutting them. The taxpayer has no place subsidizing unviable ultra-longhaul routes which only the well-off can afford anyway - there are many more pressing uses of this money for the government.

That doesn't mean that shutting down AI tomorrow is a good idea - quite contrary. But route rationalization is definitely necessary.

I have to agree with you here. When a (baker's) dozen of AI's international (essentially prestige) routes are responsible for almost 75% of their losses, I simply cannot understand how the government can justify not cutting them. The taxpayer has no place subsidizing unviable ultra-longhaul routes which only the well-off can afford anyway - there are many more pressing uses of this money for the government.And I agree again! Good grief, is the sun rising from the West today? :eek: :eek: ;)

But route rationalization is definitely necessary.Indeed. The 20 or so, govt backed, domestic national interest routes and let the commericals sort out the rest.

And I agree again! Good grief, is the sun rising from the West today? :eek: :eek: ;)

Indeed. The 20 or so, govt backed, domestic national interest routes and let the commericals sort out the rest.

Well, I guess we disagree on what the extent of the route rationalization should be - the number of profitable/necessary routes AI operates is far more than 20. Quite a bit of the domestic and regional international network is well worth keeping... It's the ultralonghaul routes to USA/Japan/(soon to be) Australia which are warrantless.

But it is indeed surprising that we've agreed so much today. I can't remember the last time we were actually on the same page...

Well, I guess we disagree on what the extent of the route rationalization should be - the number of profitable/necessary routes AI operates is far more than 20. Quite a bit of the domestic and regional international network is well worth keeping... It's the ultralonghaul routes to USA/Japan/(soon to be) Australia which are warrantless.

But it is indeed surprising that we've agreed so much today. I can't remember the last time we were actually on the same page...

True. So you can be the Mamata in this coalition on rationalization then. ;)

There is still, IMHO, no justification whatsoever for the govt to subside even one single flight on AI's international route network.
I have to agree with you here.
I might as well enter this discussion now. I respectfully disagree with AJLondon and PVDtoDEL. I think that there are certain international routes worth subsidizing, if they are for the greater good. Two examples:

1. Some of the routes from Kerala to the ME. I don't know if AI subsidizes these routes, but I would probably not complain if it did. It makes sense to subsidize these routes because this is the only way migrant workers can afford to travel home and bring with them valuable foreign currency, gifts, etc.
2. Certain flagship foreign routes such as DEL-LHR/JFK, especially if AI believes it has a good product. This helps build brand awareness about India overall and can encourage foreign tourism and investment. For example, Emirates helps build Dubai's brand (I know many other things also helped Dubai, but I think that Emirates definitely plays a non-trivial role).

I'm not saying that AI should definitely subsidize international routes. But I do think that it is not unreasonable that they might do so.

I might as well enter this discussion now. I respectfully disagree with AJLondon and PVDtoDEL. I think that there are certain international routes worth subsidizing, if they are for the greater good. Two examples:

1. Some of the routes from Kerala to the ME. I don't know if AI subsidizes these routes, but I would probably not complain if it did. It makes sense to subsidize these routes because this is the only way migrant workers can afford to travel home and bring with them valuable foreign currency, gifts, etc.
2. Certain flagship foreign routes such as DEL-LHR/JFK, especially if AI believes it has a good product. This helps build brand awareness about India overall and can encourage foreign tourism and investment. For example, Emirates helps build Dubai's brand (I know many other things also helped Dubai, but I think that Emirates definitely plays a non-trivial role).

I'm not saying that AI should definitely subsidize international routes. But I do think that it is not unreasonable that they might do so.

Agree on #2 but with #1 it is my knowledge that these workers visit when their employer pays their flight.

1. Some of the routes from Kerala to the ME. I don't know if AI subsidizes these routes, but I would probably not complain if it did. It makes sense to subsidize these routes because this is the only way migrant workers can afford to travel home and bring with them valuable foreign currency, gifts, etc.
Perhaps I wasn't clear - when I say that there is no justification for AI to dump money into loss making international routes, I mean widebody service to places like ORD/YYZ/KIX, where AI loses money hand over fist (13 of these routes cause almost 75% of AI's losses). Regional international service is a completely different ballgame.

IX, which serves a lot of these migrant traffic routes, is arguably the closest AI has gotten to being "successful" recently (the other reasonable argument being CD). IX is more or less breaking even on most of its routes with high load factors, which is right where it should be as far as I'm concerned. Making profit is a secondary concern to the public service the carrier is providing.

2. Certain flagship foreign routes such as DEL-LHR/JFK, especially if AI believes it has a good product. This helps build brand awareness about India overall and can encourage foreign tourism and investment. For example, Emirates helps build Dubai's brand (I know many other things also helped Dubai, but I think that Emirates definitely plays a non-trivial role).


I disagree here. AI has a decent product (not SQ standard, but competitive) on its longhaul fleet. That does not mean that it should waste money operating these services, when many cannot recoup the fuel cost on many of these flights.

And lets face it. Even with the decent product which AI offers on its longhaul routes, its brand is in tatters. Wasting money on prestige routes is not helpful.

Routes like ORD, YYZ, PVG, ICN or KIX, which don't even recoup fuel cost, are unwarranted.

Routes like ORD, YYZ, PVG, ICN or KIX, which don't even recoup fuel cost, are unwarranted.
There are many benefits that prestigious routes provide. I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was looking to fly home from Chicago to Germany. She bought the cheapest ticket she could find: AI from ORD to FRA. She didn't expect much given AI's overall reputation and the low cost. She texted me as soon as she got off the flight in FRA and said it was one of the most underrated flights she ever took. Since then, she has recommended AI to several people in the US and Europe. Similar story with a former colleague who flew JFK-LHR on AI.

I don't think these are one off examples. Many foreigners I have spoken to agree that AI long haul has a decent product, especially compared to many US and EU based airlines. They say they feel more comfortable flying AI than say, CA. Things like this go a long way in increasing tourism and foreign investment in India.

Again, I don't think that AI should subsidize these routes for sure. All I am trying to say is that the cost-benefit analysis should include more benefits than just dollars of revenue.

She bought the cheapest ticket she could find: AI from ORD to FRA. The fact that their yields are (were) in the toilet demonstrates precisely why they should be dropping the route.

Targeting low-yield, cheapest ticket buyers is not effective at producing profits.
Again, I don't think that AI should subsidize these routes for sure. All I am trying to say is that the cost-benefit analysis should include more benefits than just dollars of revenue.

Indeed, there are factors that GoI should keep in mind other than pure profit - that's the inherent advantage of a PSU. Instead of profit, the purpose, in theory, is to provide a service which produces a net benefit to the country, not just the investors.

Regardless, even with these factors taken into account, I honestly doubt that it's worth it for the Indian government to subsidize these routes - the disadvantage (taking money which could be allocated to more useful applications) is more than the advantages it seems, at least for these routes losing crore after crore.

JFK/EWR, LHR, CDG, NRT might be worth continuing - but I the likes of ORD and YYZ probably aren't.

If these Intl routes are not profitable I hope AI uses the current strike to trim international operations.

Only to the degree that there a some (10-20 odd) destinations where even though there may not be direct commercial motivation for regular air service, there are most certainly local economic and national security implications that mean these destinations must continue to have air links. Eg. like Kargil, Leh, Agatti, Tezpur, Bagdogra etc.

IMHO, the govt should most definitely support these routes, but only these routes. Whether that is thru AI or thru route specific subsidy using other carriers, I do not mind.

There is still, IMHO, no justification whatsoever for the govt to subside even one single flight on AI's international route network.

Maybe AI should just be reduced to a limited domestic national carrier serving specific markets that are needed from a national security perspective... From the commercial routes let the survival of the fittest philospohy operate.

In principle, I agree with you. The govt should not be in the business of running an airline. It is responsibility of the govt to see policies that promote development of the industry without setting up one operator as the favoured one.

That said, it is important for a country as large as India, which is trying to develop and grow its economy, have a viable airline industry, not just domestic operations.
In order for AI to be a viable airline,it needs an overhaul. GoI does not inspire the confidence that it has what it will take to turn AI around. I have little faith in NG/VM either.

I wanted IT, 9W, to succeed and make AI redundant. I want SG and 6E to be successful too. It doesn't seem like SpiceJet will make it.

I think Indigo has a better chance of long term survival but we have to wait and see.

I am not convinced at all international routes should be axed.

We have to be careful about relying too much on the figure that 75% of AI losses come from international operations.
We are not in a position to qualify any gains it would have from joining an alliance as we don;t even know when or if it will.
Long hauls also have higher costs (I am talking total cost on a route, not CASM). It would be more informative to quote the loss as a percentage of cost on those routes. Ten % loss on DEL-LHR could be more than 40% loss on DEL-BOM route.
The spectrum for short hops to ULHs is not discreet. Nor is the breakeven point sector length the same for every airline.
Taking a hatchet to all international flights approach is not advisable.
CASM is very high for short sectors and it goes down as sector length increases, until it goes up again at some distance depending on the type of aircraft and operations of the airline.
A DEL-US route can be made made profitable, or at least not have it bleed to death if AI had an alliance to depend on, without which both, ULH and one stops to the U.S. are dead ends.
We all want a leaner AI, but decapitating or dismembering it is not the only way to be lean. There is plenty of fat that needs to be cut, doing which will reduce losses. Cutting routes does not always lead to health. Fat needs to be cut.
If pilots continue with this strike or if they are all taken back, nothing will change. Although I won't like it, maybe AI cannot avoid its death.

you are forgetting allahabad....i'm on this flight at least twice a month....
Whoops. I may have missed a couple more, or even included some that do have service from other airlines. Hence the "give or take".

The point I was trying to make was about the number of these AI-exclusive destinations. A number that is rather small, compared at least to what I initially expected.


Only to the degree that there a some (10-20 odd) destinations where even though there may not be direct commercial motivation for regular air service, there are most certainly local economic and national security implications that mean these destinations must continue to have air links. Eg. like Kargil, Leh, Agatti, Tezpur, Bagdogra etc.

IMHO, the govt should most definitely support these routes, but only these routes. Whether that is thru AI or thru route specific subsidy using other carriers, I do not mind.
Absolutely. And I never suggested these places do without air connectivity or that they're not important. What I did say was that there is more than one way to ensure they remain connected by air.

State support is essential. But it doesn't have to be supported on Air India only.

Simple legislation that each airline fly to a couple of these vital places or appropriate incentives in terms of subsidies and grants are far more efficient and cost a bankrupt, impoverished nation far less than the spew that "AI must be kept alive at all costs because only they fly a dozen vital routes."

It's similar to the claim that "AI are the only ones who carry out evacuations or rescue flights." Rubbish. Reality is that, in the past, AI were the only airline asked to do so. That has changed too, with both Jet and Kingfisher tasked by the ministries to assist in the latter-day Flight out of Egypt (and Libya and Tunisia and Malta).

Also, just because AI/IC are the only airlines flying a route, does not automatically mean they're doing so out of the goodness of their heart. In cases like Allahabad, for instance, they could genuinely be turning a profit; it's just that the market isn't big enough for two airlines to make money.

If AI/IC were to die tomorrow, some other line would easily be able to pick up the route. At worst, they could be made to with a route-specific grant that would cost far less than AI and all their baggage.

I have to agree with you here. When a (baker's) dozen of AI's international (essentially prestige) routes are responsible for almost 75% of their losses, I simply cannot understand how the government can justify not cutting them. The taxpayer has no place subsidizing unviable ultra-longhaul routes which only the well-off can afford anyway - there are many more pressing uses of this money for the government.

That doesn't mean that shutting down AI tomorrow is a good idea - quite contrary. But route rationalization is definitely necessary.

I generally agree. Basically, get rid of Air India and save Indian Airlines. I'm not convinced of a need to save Indian Airlines either, but something needs to give. I think any reasonable person will see that much.

There are many benefits that prestigious routes provide. I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was looking to fly home from Chicago to Germany. She bought the cheapest ticket she could find: AI from ORD to FRA. She didn't expect much given AI's overall reputation and the low cost. She texted me as soon as she got off the flight in FRA and said it was one of the most underrated flights she ever took. Since then, she has recommended AI to several people in the US and Europe. Similar story with a former colleague who flew JFK-LHR on AI.

I don't think these are one off examples. Many foreigners I have spoken to agree that AI long haul has a decent product, especially compared to many US and EU based airlines. They say they feel more comfortable flying AI than say, CA. Things like this go a long way in increasing tourism and foreign investment in India.
Sorry, I cannot agree with that. In theory, it's a nice pretty ideal: that of a state-owned airline being a brand ambassador for the country. In reality, do we really want the image projected by Air India to be the one reaching out to the world?

Also, a bit OT, but the other ways to get more people to visit India are far more sensible and effective.

There you go: As PVD also pointed out, the only reason your sister even bothered to buy an Air India ticket was because they were by far the cheapest. That's the only way they can get their planes to be even half full on so may routes.

And then there's all the finger-pointing of (imaginary) capacity dumping by Emirates and Singapore.

13k each way for a midday, short ATR flight with a stopover???

What a ripoff.

Sounds like a prime route SG should look at when they are planning their ex-DEL Q400 operation (which hopefully will be up next month).

Agree entirely! :eek: ;)

del-ixd stops at knu but the return segment is a direct ixd-del flight....

it does sound like a ripoff but then again, the normal fares are around 4k....i've only paid that higher fare when i've booked at the last minute....

One of the ailments faced by airlines of India is related to "Too many chiefs two few Indians"---"Too many Chiefs (Indian) and too few Indians. Could it be Too many elites too few buyers. :D


Because of the socioeconomic conditions, there is no broad based market for air travel. Almost everyone who travels by air India, except lower level workers who work for the airlines, is from upper economic class. They may lack education and social grace. Everyone thinks they are important. That attitude pervades all aspects of Indian society, even airlines, Air Indian and private. This manifests itself in different ways in different situations.
These are general comments based on my observations. They are not directed at any person. Any resemblance with a member of FT is purely coincidental.
I don't know for sure, but it appears that the ratio of elites to regular passengers is is higher in India, which would be OK if they all earned their status by buying airline tickets. A Gold status earned through a credit card, does little for the airline. Delta also allows people to earn medallion qualifying miles on their AmEx card, I don't know what the limit is. I mean no offense, but I call those elites "fake"elites.
It's partly their (airlines') own fault for focusing heavily on loyalty programmes in a market that is not mature, and making those programmes unsustainable by their extreme generosity.

Hyperventilating fake elites, using hyperbolic metaphors to complain about an upgrade certificate not being honoured by an airline, when it's clearly stated that its use is subject to "availability" is something I see here more than other forums. Sure, it's irritating to not be able to redeem and upgrade voucher,
But the indignant attitude at not being able to redeem a voucher obtained without BIS miles, with the lowest fare shows the degree of entitlement some fake elites exhibit!
"Fake" elites, with NBIS (No BIS mile) certificates at the lowest fare is a road to bankruptcy.


It's someone else's responsibility to keep the aircraft clean. FA s think it's not their job to clean the toilet. Passengers don't know how to keep the aircraft clean (this true on full flights going to other Asian destinations too). It's changing, but not fast enough. The behaviour you see in trains as also seen on aircraft except that passengers are dressed in cleaner clothes. The other difference between IR and air travel is that airline crew is closer in status to passengers than IR crew is. Cabin crew think it's beneath them to "serve" passengers, while passengers feel the cabin crew is their "personal servant". Fundamentally, collective behaviour, of employees, crew and passengers and interaction among them as a whole is not very different whether you travel by train or by plane.

Within the airline, whether private or AI, employees are either not empowered, or are afraid to take responsibility for making a decision. Consequently, little problems are unresolved. Even if employees exercise discretionary authority vested in their position, it's not used to benefit the airline, but for their personal gain.

This is not India bashing. These circumstances are unique to India. Whether it's a delay, a missing special meal, their meal choice not being available, or an upgrade being denied, accusations start flying around. Frustaition and complaints are justified when a requested special meal is not provided, or given to some one else, but it does not call for a insulting the crew, or call an employee a liar. Most of it is cultural, off course.

There is no organisational structure to overcome competing corrupting forces from various groups, each one acting to interpret rules to affect what ever they perceive their entitlement to be.

Within the airline, whether private or AI, employees are either not empowered, or are afraid to take responsibility for making a decision. Consequently, little problems are unresolved. Even if employees exercise discretionary authority vested in their position, it's not used to benefit the airline, but for their personal gain.


^^
Agree completely. This is a serious problem that Indian carriers face.

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Galaxy S: Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.3.6; en-us; SGH-T959V Build/GINGERBREAD) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)


Within the airline, whether private or AI, employees are either not empowered, or are afraid to take responsibility for making a decision. Consequently, little problems are unresolved. Even if employees exercise discretionary authority vested in their position, it's not used to benefit the airline, but for their personal gain.


^^
Agree completely. This is a serious problem that Indian carriers face.

People complain about corruption. My contention is that they have a very narrow and often erroneous definition of corruprion. If tjey are denied something they want or feel absolutelt entitled to, even if there is little justification in the rules for that, it's corruption. It's considered harmless to get backdoor favours because of who they know.
But few people would stand up against corruption. Most just go along as long as it does't affect them.
Look at IR. Seats are blocked by scalpers to be sold at premium. The business is thriving. Without tje cooperation of those who buy tickes from scalpers, it can't continue.

Scalpers had almost disppeared foe a brief period. But it took national emergency, abrogation of constitutional process, and sacrifice of personal liberty.