Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Slightly odd TSA experience [power trip]

I had a slightly odd TSA experience when leaving RNO earlier in the week. There were two things that happened, only one directly related to me so I will share it first.

RNO doesn't have the Nude-O-Scopes yet, rather just the metal detectors etc. (It was reported in the local news today though that we are to get NoS soon...) As I was taking position I took laptop and liquids out of my carry-on, took my belt/shoes off as required and I used 2 plastic trays and put them on the belt portrait style to the belt/machine so that they go through longer side first as indicated by the pictures and every other time I have been through anywhere...

Then, Mr TSA said the trays do not fit that way and I would need to turn them around... yet, the OH who was in front and the line of people before her managed! I obliged to avoid conflict and assumed her was on a power trip or equivalent. Anyone else ever been told this?

Should mention that the trays were not "full" or "overflowing" with items, my jacket is very light and is my carry-on laptop bag and fit in the trays with no issue.


The second thing was that someone went through with something he shouldn't have had in his bag and went through the metal detector and had put his shoes/belt and bag back on his back before the TSA stopped in to remove it. Thought it was a bit of a fail on their part, but they made a big deal out of it.

Have no idea what you are talking about , stop waisting your time .. Turn the bin and move along ...

Long side first is generally the way they want. More bins can fit on the belt and they are less likely to bunch up at the end. They "fit" either way on eery machine I have seen. Unless it was overflowing, then long side first is OK.

That said, in the grand scheme of things, a barker barking is to be expected. It is odd only in that they act the way they do. If it is a battle you want to fight, feel free. As for me, I go into full ignore mode with the barkers.

The second you mention is more interesting actually. Allowing someone to repossess items with an anomaly can lead to a resolution pat down or even a terminal dump in rare cases that it it not discovered until after the person has left the CP.

Here is INK's WAG. In anticipation of the scanners, they have hired a bunch of new people that have not yet risen to the level of simply incompetent. It sounds like training day.

OP... power trips (which seems like an overreach in this case) and clerks that have no clue about certain things are both very common. Search TS/S for NEXUS and you will find lots of cases where the average citizen has to explain to the clerk what the rules are.

Have no idea what you are talking about , stop wasting your time .. Turn the bin and move along ...

I think the OP did the right thing. Comply with the moron/thug. It's also important to point out government stupidity in a public forum. This kind of thing happens all the time. If nothing else, it's indicative of either poor people, poor training, poor supervision, or all the above. Besides whatever trip he was or wasn't on, it's a waste of tax payers dollars to have a person either so stupid or so unobservant that he can't figure out that bins will go through the x-ray sideways (and then make people do weird stuff because HE is not too bright).

But, of course, he's just one dim bulb. He doesn't reflect the 50,000 other fine orificers that make up the TSA.

Here is INK's WAG. In anticipation of the scanners, they have hired a bunch of new people that have not yet risen to the level of simply incompetent. It sounds like training day.

^ I think this is proof of evolution. How many stripes does he get when he reaches neanderthal?

Lotta odd things happen every day.

At PWM, I had a TSA chick swear up and down that I had liquids in my bag. I asked her to show them to me, which she never did. No apology, etc. just an explanation from another TSA that often things look like liquids, but they aren't. Fine I would agree with that in the machine, but this accusation was made after a.hand search.......

TSA is such a joke....

Have no idea what you are talking about , stop waisting your time .. Turn the bin and move along ...

That is exactly what I did. As I said above...

Here is INK's WAG. In anticipation of the scanners, they have hired a bunch of new people that have not yet risen to the level of simply incompetent. It sounds like training day.

Hadn't even thought of that but it makes sense.

This might actually be the opposite of incompetence. Generally, well trained screeners will prefer "short end" first, since that will place the contents in the middle of the conveyor, giving a smaller chance of "edge errors".

X-rays travel on a 45 degree angle inside the x-ray machine, which means that there are narrow areas inside that will not be registered or be warped (not always, but this happens). Keeping as much of the item on or near the middle of the conveyor will eliminate the problem.

That said, a "long side first" approach might feel more efficient (even though it isn't), and the most important thing here is the screener's preference. Consistency is very important when interpreting an x-ray image in just a few seconds.

That said, a "long side first" approach might feel more efficient (even though it isn't), and the most important thing here is the screener's preference. Consistency is very important when interpreting an x-ray image in just a few seconds.


I will accept your explanation without question. However, I always put my bin in long side first and in hundreds of trips nothing has ever been said. My Pelican 1510 and backpack goes in short side first as that is where the handle is that I want to grab on the way out.

I will accept your explanation without question. However, I always put my bin in long side first and in hundreds of trips nothing has ever been said. My Pelican 1510 and backpack goes in short side first as that is where the handle is that I want to grab on the way out.

Absolutely, and I think the "training day" comment may have been right...it's just that that person hasn't been brought into the long-side-first habit yet, which is mostly done to create the illusion that things are moving faster... :P What usually holds up a checkpoint are the body scanners and/or patdowns.

-SB-

Consistency is very important when interpreting an x-ray image in just a few seconds.

Since when has the TSA ever attempted to be consistent at *anything* but incompetence?

Since when has the TSA ever attempted to be consistent at *anything* but incompetence?

Was that the issue? I explained one of the important things which should be considered when reading security x-rays, why that is and a possible reason for insisting on short-end-first.

-SB-

I've been told that short side first at some machines significantly cuts down on the bins that get caught in the machine by some operators, and gives them a clearer picture of what's in each bin because then the bin is aligned the same way their screen is.

I'm sure it is different for different models of machines.

They were probably trying to get you though as quickly as possible, calling it a power trip is a bit extreme.

Was that the issue? I explained one of the important things which should be considered when reading security x-rays, why that is and a possible reason for insisting on short-end-first.

-SB-

...which doesn't explain why some of the TSA personnel want the bins aligned short-end-first, or shoes-on-the-belt vs shoes-in-the-bin barkers, or any number of other "consistently inconsistent" stupidity the TSA pulls.

If it's that important, one would expect all of the screeners to do it the same way. They don't. So, if it really is important, we've just got a lot of untrained/poorly trained/untrainable screeners working the checkpoints.

...which doesn't explain why some of the TSA personnel want the bins aligned short-end-first, or shoes-on-the-belt vs shoes-in-the-bin barkers, or any number of other "consistently inconsistent" stupidity the TSA pulls.

If it's that important, one would expect all of the screeners to do it the same way. They don't. So, if it really is important, we've just got a lot of untrained/poorly trained/untrainable screeners working the checkpoints.

Cordelli just confirmed my explanation over that post of yours, by the way.
Also, consistency isn't referring to everyone doing it the same way. When reading a security x-ray, it's important that the screener gets a consistent format across his/her screen, and that preference can vary from person to person. E.g. an operator used to machines where the edge errors and problems don't occur could possibly prefer long-side-first, and request that consistently, while an operator trained and used to a machine with such issues will insist on short-end-first, just because that's what they're used to.

Either way, that doesn't inconvenience you, or hold you up (the body scanners/pat downs take longer).
Calling it a power trip or incompetence is just silly.

-SB-

CE.g. an operator used to machines where the edge errors and problems don't occur could possibly prefer long-side-first, and request that consistently, while an operator trained and used to a machine with such issues will insist on short-end-first, just because that's what they're used to.

Does the TSA typically train personnel on a device they don't normally operate prior to letting them "go live" and scan baggage that they claim potentially carries the explosives they're supposedly looking for?

Either way, that doesn't inconvenience you, or hold you up (the body scanners/pat downs take longer).
Calling it a power trip or incompetence is just silly.

-SB-

I suppose it would depend on just how the OP was told to turn their tray.

Was it a simple "Please turn your tray this other direction so as to make it easier to scan," or was it the typical, "TURN YOUR TRAY! WHAT ARE YOU, STUPID?" we've come to expect from the TSA?

One is a power trip... the other isn't.

This might actually be the opposite of incompetence. Generally, well trained screeners will prefer "short end" first, since that will place the contents in the middle of the conveyor, giving a smaller chance of "edge errors".

X-rays travel on a 45 degree angle inside the x-ray machine, which means that there are narrow areas inside that will not be registered or be warped (not always, but this happens). Keeping as much of the item on or near the middle of the conveyor will eliminate the problem.

I will accept your explanation without question.

As will I.

Thanks

I suppose it would depend on just how the OP was told to turn their tray.

Was it a simple "Please turn your tray this other direction so as to make it easier to scan," or was it the typical, "TURN YOUR TRAY! WHAT ARE YOU, STUPID?" we've come to expect from the TSA?

One is a power trip... the other isn't.

"Sir. The bins do not fit through the x-ray that way. Turn them around."

There was no please, or thank you after.

"Sir. The bins do not fit through the x-ray that way. Turn them around."

There was no please, or thank you after.

Tough call. Probably not a "power trip," but certainly meets expectations for TSA "respect" and "care."

I always thought the short-end-firstians were coddling their screen viewing colleague by presenting objects at a slower rate, so they wouldn't feel the need to hit the "pause" or "rewind" buttons, which may be perceived as a sign of noobishness by the public. And retaining the public's respect is important.

Long-end-firstians were demonstrating how their colleague at the monitor was a highly-experienced professional performing at full capability.

Not unlike a circus monkey trainer showing how small a hoop their charges could leap through.

Does the TSA typically train personnel on a device they don't normally operate prior to letting them "go live" and scan baggage that they claim potentially carries the explosives they're supposedly looking for?


Please. Do you need a new driver's license when you buy a new car? Do they issue driver's licenses that are only valid for Chevrolet? Or Dodge?

There are several makes and models of x-ray machines out there, but they produce, in the end, the same product. The main differences between them are mechanical (as in type of conveyor, accessories such as roller tables, etc.) and differences in size.

-SB-

Please. Do you need a new driver's license when you buy a new car? Do they issue driver's licenses that are only valid for Chevrolet? Or Dodge?

There are several makes and models of x-ray machines out there, but they produce, in the end, the same product. The main differences between them are mechanical (as in type of conveyor, accessories such as roller tables, etc.) and differences in size.

Please. Do you need a new driver's license when you move from a motorcycle to a semi-tractor/trailer?

There are many makes and models of vehicle out there, which in the end have VERY different operating parameters...

According to what you've stated above, and I have no reason to argue, some machines have problems imaging the edges of the belt. In those cases, wouldn't it make sense to predefine how the passenger is supposed to put their tray on the belt - not according to the whim of the half-trained dolt looking at the screen, but according to measurable statistics - you know, basic scientific methodology?

If the TSA wants us to believe that they're the only thing standing between polite society and aircraft being flown into buildings, then they shouldn't have their idiot screeners arguing over the alignment of the trays going into the X-ray machines - maybe a nice pictogram over the entrance to the machine showing the correct tray alignment would be more useful than barking at people.

Please. Do you need a new driver's license when you move from a motorcycle to a semi-tractor/trailer?

There are many makes and models of vehicle out there, which in the end have VERY different operating parameters...

According to what you've stated above, and I have no reason to argue, some machines have problems imaging the edges of the belt. In those cases, wouldn't it make sense to predefine how the passenger is supposed to put their tray on the belt - not according to the whim of the half-trained dolt looking at the screen, but according to measurable statistics - you know, basic scientific methodology?

If the TSA wants us to believe that they're the only thing standing between polite society and aircraft being flown into buildings, then they shouldn't have their idiot screeners arguing over the alignment of the trays going into the X-ray machines - maybe a nice pictogram over the entrance to the machine showing the correct tray alignment would be more useful than barking at people.

Please. You're making yourself look stupid by arguing about this. You get my point. The difference between x-ray machines are like the differences between an old Prius and a newer Prius, in terms of "operating parameters".

Also, edge errors and trays getting stuck is mainly a problem in older x-ray machines - the point I was making, and have made a couple of times, is that the operator needs consistency according to what that operator is used to. While most operators will be trained in the short-end-first method, it comes down to the operator's preference in many cases. Which also renders your pictogram-idea a little silly.

-SB-

the operator needs consistency according to what that operator is used to

You don't see a problem in allowing a poorly-trained screener's preference for long-edge-first creating edge errors on an older machine?

Really?

You don't see a problem in allowing a poorly-trained screener's preference for long-edge-first creating edge errors on an older machine?

Really?

Really. Look - edge errors and stuck bins are easily corrected. They're a nuisance, not a danger. If you had ever been trained on one of those wondrous x-ray machines that apparently hold so many mysteries to you, you would know what to do about such things too.

That said - image warping and other errors happen to every model - knowing what to do about them comes very early in operator training.

So yeah. Really.

-SB-

If you had ever been trained on one of those wondrous x-ray machines that apparently hold so many mysteries to you, you would know what to do about such things too.

...and if the TSA did a better job of training, they wouldn't be having 70% failure rates in the Red Team tests.

If they can't train the screeners consistently, then they're not going to detect consistently. It's that simple.

And since the screeners *can't* be trained consistently, they run with the excuse of "we're deliberately inconsistent" to excuse all of the sheer failures at the checkpoints - in detection, in public relations, and in simple, basic empathy and humanity.

Are those last trained out of TSA employees, or are they screened for in the hiring process?

I like to use two bins with my rollaboard, all short-end first. That way I have a prayer of getting through my own screening before my iPad is stolen.

...and if the TSA did a better job of training, they wouldn't be having 70% failure rates in the Red Team tests.

If they can't train the screeners consistently, then they're not going to detect consistently.

Hah! I never said the TSA operators are well trained...a 70% failure rate would indicate that they're consistently poorly trained, at least. We've got a couple of "How to read airport x-rays" pages on snallabolaget.com and get a lot of questions from people who are apparently taking TSA x-ray operator tests...

Let me just say that none of the writers on our site has ever worked for the TSA, but have x-ray training (extensive) from other sources, and the TSA seems to be using a very inferior training regimen when it comes to x-ray interpretation. The insistence on short-end-first in this case seems to point to the explanation I first offered, however. :)

-SB-

The insistence on short-end-first in this case seems to point to the explanation I first offered, however. :)

Were it not the TSA, I'd agree. A well-trained and efficient screener might say, "Please place your bins in this orientation to speed screening," while one of the TSA's goons will typically bark "TURN YOUR BIN! WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?"

The insistence on short-end-first by TSA employees is an indicator that they're just exercising their "authoritah." Especially given their typical delivery of the message that "it's their way, or the highway," also referred to as the "Do You Want to Fly Today?" question.


the TSA seems to be using a very inferior training regimen when it comes to x-ray interpretation.

I believe that problem starts with the hiring process.

Were it not the TSA, I'd agree. A well-trained and efficient screener might say, "Please place your bins in this orientation to speed screening," while one of the TSA's goons will typically bark "TURN YOUR BIN! WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?"

The insistence on short-end-first by TSA employees is an indicator that they're just exercising their "authoritah." Especially given their typical delivery of the message that "it's their way, or the highway," also referred to as the "Do You Want to Fly Today?" question.


Well, that wasn't what happened in this case, was it now? You should try to stick to the situation as it was described, since that's what I was commenting on.

-SB-

Well, that wasn't what happened in this case, was it now?

It's a natural assumption, based on years of experience in dealing with the TSA.

The first thing most people complain about is being barked at - which is why I assumed the OP was complaining about being barked at.

Would you have been surprised if it had been accurate?

It's a natural assumption, based on years of experience in dealing with the TSA.

The first thing most people complain about is being barked at - which is why I assumed the OP was complaining about being barked at.

Would you have been surprised if it had been accurate?

That's not the point. OP already posted what happened.

-SB-

That's not the point. OP already posted what happened.

Yes. In post #18 - which reflects exactly the lack of respect and/or politeness we've all come to expect from the TSA, long after I'd predicted it.

Yes. In post #18 - which reflects exactly the lack of respect and/or politeness we've all come to expect from the TSA, long after I'd predicted it.

Ah... So you expect to be cuddled through the checkpoint? While I agree that a "please" on the end there might be the best way to go about things, I don't see any of the alleged "barking" or yelling or South Park-esque "authoretaaah" thing you've been moaning about.

Ah... So you expect to be cuddled through the checkpoint?

Hardly. But I do expect not to be barked at by subhumans who can barely grunt, nor have my belongings stolen - or even pawed through by someone who can't even remember not to pick their nose while wearing their gloves.


I don't see any of the alleged "barking" or yelling or South Park-esque "authoretaaah" thing you've been moaning about.

Haven't been through PHX, ATL, or DFW in the last five years, have you?

Haven't been through PHX, ATL, or DFW in the last five years, have you?

To be fair, I haven't heard the barkers in well over three years at DFW and I go through there at least twice a month.

To be fair, I haven't heard the barkers in well over three years at DFW and I go through there at least twice a month.

It's been at least three years since I last went through DFW. Maybe they've learned better.

Hardly. But I do expect not to be barked at by subhumans who can barely grunt, nor have my belongings stolen - or even pawed through by someone who can't even remember not to pick their nose while wearing their gloves.

Huh... If you called me a subhuman, someone who can barely grunt or someone who can't remember not to pick my nose while wearing gloves, I wouldn't bother with a "please" to you either. In fact, I'd probably cut the "Sir" too.

@GoAmtrak & Caradoc

Even though the "emotional element" is present, how does one draw from my posting a possible and actually likely explanation of why OP was asked to turn his tray around to accusing me of being OK with how the TSA works and behaves? We weren't even discussing that, but aThere the workings of an x-ray machine, with a digression into how the TSA seemingly trains their people, at which point I clearly stated that their training methods seem inadequate.

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Thanks.


aztimm

...a digression into how the TSA seemingly trains their people, at which point I clearly stated that their training methods seem inadequate.

On that point at least we agree. And not just for X-ray analysis.

I always put bins in short-end first for exactly the reasons stated here: there's less need to precisely center the bin on the belt and it's in everybody's best interest if the x-ray operator gets the best view of the contents.

I don't see what's wrong with different people doing a job in different ways as long as all have the same result. I'm in the computer field and many people prefer to look at listings on paper and others on the screen. There's no "right" or "wrong" there. Sure, it's inappropriate to "bark" and the word "please" should be used, but if that's the case, I see little reason to fight that battle.

At one airport recently, I was asked not to put items next to a laptop in the bin. At the exit of the belt, I politely asked the TSO why that was, saying that it was uncommon, and he basically said "yeah, well, she [the x-ray operator] likes it that way and we humor her". I appreciated the honesty. Yes, I see the issue there, but again, that's a battle I see little reason to fight.

It's been at least three years since I last went through DFW. Maybe they've learned better.

I think they have, but DFW was never the worst offender. I told a barker at SAN to shut up once, that she was interrupting my phone call.

Perhaps someone should try putting the bin upside down over the contents, and, if called on it, argue: "I'm protecting my stuff's privacy." Or, the scientific explanation: "X-Rays cause the gravity in the machine to be oriented this way.":rolleyes:

When I read this thread title, my first thought was, "what's odd about a TSA power trip?" :D

I think they have, but DFW was never the worst
offender. I told a barker at SAN to shut up once, that she was interrupting my phone call.

I once asked a (really over the top Sheriff Cartman-esque) barker at IAH to, "please quit shouting at me."

He immediately got in my face and asked if I was a "troublemaker" and pulled DY...T? It was surreal.

If you watch the TSA video posted by Affection here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1358637-watch-tsa-nude-body-scanners-get-defeated.html), you will see the TSO dutifully turning bins to long side first from short side first. I so love consistency.

Perhaps someone should try putting the bin upside down over the contents, and, if called on it, argue: "I'm protecting my stuff's privacy." Or, the scientific explanation: "X-Rays cause the gravity in the machine to be oriented this way.":rolleyes:

Too funny! :D
Another thing to try would be putting them in diagonally.

Maximum resolution and minimal spatial distortion occur along the short axis between the x-ray source and the detector, with progressive deterioration of image towards the periphery of the field. In a well designed system, this may be minimal. Distortion increases at the periphery of the field are especially noticeable in systems where density differences are coded with false-color --- and the TSA systems are such.

Ideal use would be bins entering short side first and centered on the belt. This would provide maximum resolution and fewest edge effects. It also takes more time.

The presentation preference argument is specious --- people can be trained to the any presentation, with standardization essential. The presentation of the bin, of course, has no relation to the presentation of the targets. The terrorists are not going to line up their guns/knives/explosives at any particular angle to the long axis of the belt.

Maximum resolution and minimal spatial distortion occur along the short axis between the x-ray source and the detector, with progressive deterioration of image towards the periphery of the field. In a well designed system, this may be minimal. Distortion increases at the periphery of the field are especially noticeable in systems where density differences are coded with false-color --- and the TSA systems are such.

Ideal use would be bins entering short side first and centered on the belt. This would provide maximum resolution and fewest edge effects. It also takes more time.

The presentation preference argument is specious --- people can be trained to the any presentation, with standardization essential. The presentation of the bin, of course, has no relation to the presentation of the targets. The terrorists are not going to line up their guns/knives/explosives at any particular angle to the long axis of the belt.

That's what I was trying to say... that was infinitely more eloquently presented, however. :D

-SB-

If you watch the TSA video posted by Affection here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1358637-watch-tsa-nude-body-scanners-get-defeated.html), you will see the TSO dutifully turning bins to long side first from short side first. I so love consistency.

Pretty sad when that's the highest skill set your job requires.

Pretty sad when that's the highest skill set your job requires.

As I have said before, they don't want thinking people. Thinking people don't follow orders blindly and following orders is key in a police state.

By design, the ideal TSO is a high school graduate from the underclass who doesn't want to lose his sweet government job making $40,000 a year w/ full benefits.

By design, the ideal TSO is a high school graduate from the underclass who doesn't want to lose his sweet government job making $40,000 a year w/ full benefits.

...and won't argue with "just following orders."