Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Security pat-down by opposite sex

I have noticed when going through security that there is sometimes a wait while a male security chap pats down each member of a queue of men going through whilst a lady stands aside.

Can we go through faster if we say that we are happy to be patted down by a member of the opposite sex?

Are security staff able to refuse to pat somebody down purely based on the fact that they are the opposite gender?

Personally I would have no problem being patted down by a lady (I am a gentleman) if it made the queue go faster.

Can we go through faster if we say that we are happy to be patted down by a member of the opposite sex?


For medical reasons, I cannot go through the detector and always have to be patted.

Numerous times, I have said I have no problems with a female doing the job, but this was always turned down. It seems to me this is more to do with procedure, to safeguard everyone, rather than preferences.

They do equality checking in Sweden. I didn't feel violated

Personally I would have no problem being patted down by a lady (I am a gentleman) if it made the queue go faster.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYZlQlEnRwsQpP7OxMR0hNT0rcEcmp8 kZgrxSlDgAmY2fLaI602w

I quite agree.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9700/5.0.0.979 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

At chinese airports, it's actually quite standard to be patted down by the opposite sex (at least for female security officer checking male passenger). I was in shenzhen yesterday with no line and passengers were rotating through the male and female security officers

Yes in Sweden it's quite common for female security officers to pat down male passengers, and feels quite natural, though apparently it's quite OK to ask for a same gender patter-downer. In a world of multiple and diverse sexualities I never understood the logic anyway.

In the crew channel in Copenhagen we also get either sex patting us down.
I don't seem to mind it in Scandernavian countries because they feel so professional about the way they operate. I can't really explain it but the whole calibre of their staff seems completely different to the UK.

I really would not want a male UK security officer feeling around my breasts and other personal parts of my body. Going through, twice a day often, with a female pat down is bad enough but having a UK male security officer feeling around my body is certainly not something I am going to be campaigning for!

Don't think it would make any difference to me. I hate being felt up by anyone without at least having a drink with them first.

However I believe there are a lot of conservative people out there who feel it is more appropriate to be patted-down by the same sex. (Makes me wonder what a gay conservative would want here... :D)

I was told (on here) that it was because of the potential for sexual harassment claims if it was the opposite sex. I had a lady start to wand me in ACK and then she stopped, said she wasn't allowed to do it and had to get a bloke. I said I didn't mind (she was good looking which helped) but she was insistent - she wasn't even patting me down she was just using a wand but rules are rules.

I had a lady start to want me in ACK and then she stopped, said she wasn't allowed to do it and had to get a bloke.

They're a funny lot in Nantucket.;)

Numerous times, I have said I have no problems with a female doing the job, but this was always turned down. It seems to me this is more to do with procedure, to safeguard everyone, rather than preferences.

Fair point. Probably best to let them do it according to the standard procedure. :)

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYZlQlEnRwsQpP7OxMR0hNT0rcEcmp8 kZgrxSlDgAmY2fLaI602w

^:D

They're a funny lot in Nantucket.;)

This was 2002, the first year that they'd ever done security for 9K flights and it was all a bit new for everyone.

... I had a lady start to want me in ACK.

Oooeerrr...

Oooeerrr...

It could have been worse!!!

I don't care which gender does it, I just care that any service received is professional.

I was told (on here) that it was because of the potential for sexual harassment claims if it was the opposite sex. I had a lady start to want me in ACK and then she stopped, said she wasn't allowed to do it and had to get a bloke. I said I didn't mind (she was good looking which helped) but she was insistent - she wasn't even patting me down she was just using a wand but rules are rules.

Just out of curiosity....where is ACK?

Just out of curiosity....where is ACK?

Nantucket, MA, USA.

About 3 years ago LHR_PHL they had separate lines for men and women going through a full pat down and bag search just before the gate, a few months later LHR_MCO it was a free for all and much to his delight my son (then 14) was patted down by a young lady, I was going to call out to say that he was a child but decided not to spoil his moment:D

Opposite sex pat-downs are quite standard in Scandinavia. Has never bothered me.

I had a lady start to want me in ACK
Oooeerrr...It could have been worse!!!

Whoops :o That should of course say Wand!

Nantucket, MA, USA.

Hmmm, I wonder how long it will take for someone to essay a dirty limerick? ;)

Just out of curiosity....where is ACK?Nantucket, MA, USA.

It's an island off the Massachusetts coast

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Nantucket_ma_highlight.png

South of BOS north of NYC next door to MVY (Martha's Vineyard).

Hmmm, I wonder how long it will take for someone to essay a dirty limerick? ;)

I only know the one and it isn't dirty

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket,
His daughter called Nan,
Ran away with a man,
and as for the bucket,
Nantucket

:D ....

In the crew channel in Copenhagen we also get either sex patting us down.
I don't seem to mind it in Scandernavian countries because they feel so professional about the way they operate. I can't really explain it but the whole calibre of their staff seems completely different to the UK.


If you believe so, it may have to do with a case from 2007. In Oslo, SAS, Norwegian and Wideroe directors filed a complaint against the airport operator after numerous female cabin crews reported sexual harassment in security check.

This newssource, badly translated by Google, says:


The tone between the airlines and security personnel at Norwegian airports were freezing after accusations of harassment and groping of female cabin crew. Flight attendants, according to TV 2 have experienced patdowns with groping and touching under the skirt and bra.


Source: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nettavisen.no%2Finnenriks%2Fart icle940643.ece

I hate being felt up by anyone without at least having a drink with them first.


Great idea just not sure it will help work the queue times?

Great idea just not sure it will help work the queue times?

:D:D:eek:

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9700/5.0.0.979 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

At chinese airports, it's actually quite standard to be patted down by the opposite sex (at least for female security officer checking male passenger). I was in shenzhen yesterday with no line and passengers were rotating through the male and female security officersThey do indeed tend to have unisex checks, as well as those odd little platforms to stand on. But the thoroughness of pat downs seem to be highly variable. In some I find they are fairly slack and the pat down is much like a UK one. But in other airports they have had their fingers inside the waistband of my trousers, a quick feel of the crown jewels, etc. I think they just like to see the shock on a westerner's face :)

I only know the one and it isn't dirty

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket,
His daughter called Nan,
Ran away with a man,
and as for the bucket,
Nantucket

On a recent trip to Nantucket
I met a girl who could duck it
Her name was Odile
And she was on the pill
So the rest of the trip
We had a great time

LOL.
I have no issues at all....

http://img.escapade.co.uk/SALEHIRE/Medium/888106.jpg

If you believe so, it may have to do with a case from 2007. In Oslo, SAS, Norwegian and Wideroe directors filed a complaint against the airport operator after numerous female cabin crews reported sexual harassment in security check.

This newssource, badly translated by Google, says:



Source: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nettavisen.no%2Finnenriks%2Fart icle940643.ece

If they were touching my d*** then I would wonder how desperate they were.
Then again, ......

As long as it's not done the way it was in Warsaw the other day. The security guy had had a good old rummage inside ( yes, inside) my underwear. One of those- did that actually happen moments....:-)

As long as it's not done the way it was in Warsaw the other day. The security guy had had a good old rummage inside ( yes, inside) my underwear. One of those- did that actually happen moments....:-)

May we ask your gender, please? :D

...
Can we go through faster if we say that we are happy to be patted down by a member of the opposite sex?
...

Scandinavian security gates actually states something like "You may ask for a same sex officer, but in that case you may have to wait a few more minutes"

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYZlQlEnRwsQpP7OxMR0hNT0rcEcmp8 kZgrxSlDgAmY2fLaI602w

I quite agree.
Clearly, you have not seen what the typical female TSO looks like. :rolleyes:

Scandinavian security gates actually states something like "You may ask for a same sex officer, but in that case you may have to wait a few more minutes"

I am swedish but I would never accept to be have a pat down by a strange man. From a strange woman is bad enough.

I am swedish but I would never accept to be have a pat down by a strange man. From a strange woman is bad enough.

Agreed. Though, you have the choice.
The point is that this is reversed practice in scandinavia. Any officer search any passenger, thus speeding up the process in average.
OP pointed out that since there is no choice (only same sex officer) passengers will have to wait for a same sex officer to become available, inspite a opposite sex officer being available.

I have noticed when going through security that there is sometimes a wait while a male security chap pats down each member of a queue of men going through whilst a lady stands aside.

Can we go through faster if we say that we are happy to be patted down by a member of the opposite sex?

Are security staff able to refuse to pat somebody down purely based on the fact that they are the opposite gender?

Personally I would have no problem being patted down by a lady (I am a gentleman) if it made the queue go faster.

Not allowed in the USA except in the most unusual circumstances. Sorry, personally I agree with others here in that I would prefer to be patted down by the opposite sex. My wife might have something to say about it, but not me.

TSA puts forth significant effort to hire female screeners, but screening does not seem to be something many females are interested in doing. I’m a guy, so I have no idea why that is. What I do know is that I would be uncomfortable patting down most females, but I have seen a few that might actually be interesting. :D

Anyway, the very few times it is allowed are usually at very small airports which have a small staff. It is only allowed with permission from somewhere far up the chain of command and usually takes quite a bit of time to obtain. In Sweden, Amsterdam, Japan, and other places they have different societal norms and screening procedures. In Israel people carry guns all over the place, in Chicago you get arrested or shot for such behavior. Think about it that way.

Opposite gender screening is allowed by TSA under rare circumstances, but like any government bureaucracy it forces them to generate lots of paperwork, so they probably avoid it like the plague.

From the TSA Screening Management SOP some kind soul posted online. ^ Bolding theirs.

4.3.14. OPPOSITE GENDER SCREENING

Extraordinary circumstances may occur where a TSO of the same gender as the individual being screened (the gender of an individual is determined by who he or she presents themselves to be) is not available to complete HHMD and/or pat-down screening procedures (for example, staffing shortage emergencies at any airport or limited staffing at Category II, III, and IV airports). Under these staffing shortage emergencies, screening procedures for individuals of the opposite gender, as provided for in this Section, are authorized and STSOs must apply the following procedures.

A. The following notifications must be made within 24 hours of each new staffing shortage event:
1) The STSO must notify the FSD, specifying the anticipated duration of the staffing shortage. The STSO must provide subsequent updates to the FSD if the reported duration is exceeded.
2) The STSO must maintain a count of the number of passengers affected during the staffing shortage and report these numbers to the FSD after the shortage is resolved. No personal or identifying information must be taken from the passenger for purposes of this report. For example, “three female passengers underwent opposite gender screening at Airport X” is an adequate count; however, including the names of the three female passengers in the count would be inappropriate.
3) The FSD must in turn notify the Area Director, who must monitor such reports and consider how the patterns of staffing shortages, if any, can be addressed. The Area Director or his or her designee must notify the Office of Civil Rights of the staffing shortage and provide a copy of the report indicating the number of passengers subjected to opposite gender screening at each affected airport.

B. The STSO must ensure that the following notice is provided to an individual of the opposite gender before the individual enters the WTMD:
1) A TSO of the same gender as the individual presents him or herself to be is not available.
2) A TSO of the opposite gender will be required to complete the screening process, which may include physical contact between the TSO and the individual.
3) An LTSO or STSO, if possible, will be present.
4) Once the individual enters the WTMD, the individual must complete the screening process.

(Note: one of these sections were redacted in the redacted version as being SSI. The flying public has a "NEED TO KNOW" what routine procedures are, per their disclaimer.)

it's an academic question in the US. there is no way the TSA wants to see viral videos posted of a male TSA clerk rubbing the butt, crotch and breasts of a female.

Clearly, you have not seen what the typical female TSO looks like. :rolleyes:

http://www.thedawgpound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/tsa_female_chest_pat_down.jpg

it's an academic question in the US. there is no way the TSA wants to see viral videos posted of a male TSA clerk rubbing the butt, crotch and breasts of a female.

I don't know why it even matters to them. This entire thread assumes that there is no one in any airport is attracted to someone of the same sex. And we know that's not the case.

I don't know why it even matters to them. This entire thread assumes that there is no one in any airport is attracted to someone of the same sex. And we know that's not the case.

Well, at least the one ex-priest (that we know about) was busted down for inappropriately touching little girls - not boys - so we've got a pretty good idea that he hasn't been doing that while working for the TSA.

The question remains how many little boys and men he may or may not have inappropriately touched while working for the TSA - and how many pairs of little girls' underwear have gone missing on his watch.

(The other question that also remains is this - why doesn't the TSA police their own ranks?)

This entire thread assumes that there is no one in any airport is attracted to someone of the same sex. And we know that's not the case.

Forgeting the invasive assault nature of the "rub till you feel resistance" business, for the sake of discussion assume 10% of the population is gay and the Feds do a great job of diversity hiring, meaning 10% of screeners are gay.

Thus 10% of screeners may enjoy same gender pat downs, but 90% do not. Apparently this level of potential "enjoyment at work" is acceptable.

OTOH if opposite gender patdowns were the norm, then 90% of the screeners might enjoy performing the pat downs. This apparently is not acceptable.

Of course, if 10% of the pax are gay, then 10% of the flying public might enjoy their same gender $2.50 Federal massage, while 90% might not, or be turned off by homophobic feelings.

And once in a hundred times the gay screener gets to fondle the gay pax, potentially a win-win situation. ;)

In reality it comes down to the fact that if opposite gender rub downs were allowed, every clerkpoint would have one or two guys who could not resist doing a random(sic) secondary selection of every hot young chick, movie star, and celebrity that shows up. The complaints would number in the millions.

Assuming that because someone (either screener or passenger) is gay means they would automatically "enjoy" a same sex screening is the same as assuming that any straight person would enjoy patting down/being patted down by any opposite sex person. It may not be your intent, but it really does buy into the stereotype that gay people (especially men) are totally indiscriminate.

tl;dr: just because someone is gay, it doesn't mean they find every person of the same sex attractive.

Opposite sex pat-downs are quite standard in Scandinavia. Has never bothered me.

I would think that male passengers would not have a problem being patted down by female staff, but somehow I can't imagine male staff patting down female passengers, no matter how open-minded people are. Does that happen often?

Also, I believe that these pat-downs are far less invasive than the opt-out pat downs in the US, which are designed to be retaliatory. Do they use gloves or a wand in Scandinavia?

Assuming that because someone (either screener or passenger) is gay means they would automatically "enjoy" a same sex screening is the same as assuming that any straight person would enjoy patting down/being patted down by any opposite sex person. It may not be your intent, but it really does buy into the stereotype that gay people (especially men) are totally indiscriminate.

tl;dr: just because someone is gay, it doesn't mean they find every person of the same sex attractive.

Not my intent. But let's fact it, it's what the same-sex screening is all about, IMO. Otherwise why not allow opposite-sex screening in the US?

This thread I believe was sent here via the BA forum.

Having had numerous physical checks at airports in the UK and in the US, I would as a female state that same sex vs alternate sex pat downs would have different results in each country.

I would be ok with it in the UK, but absolutely not in the US, based on the extremely intrusive nature of the pat down in the US. I am not prepared to have a male TSO run their hand up my skirt, up my bare thighs, and across my crotch. It is bad enough having a woman do that, and have her run her hand across my underwear, or pull down my underwear, but I don't want a male doing that.

And I have never had a woman do that at any airport outside the US.

I can only speak for Sweden and pat downs.

A pat down there is what we have always called a pat down. That does not include butts, genitals and/or breasts.

If those parts need to be searched only same gender can do it. And a doctor or a nurse can do this no matter gender.

And then it is not called pat down but body inspection.

No screener can do "private" search on an opposite gender.

I can only speak for Sweden and pat downs.

A pat down there is what we have always called a pat down. That does not include butts, genitals and/or breasts.

If those parts need to be searched only same gender can do it. And a doctor or a nurse can do this no matter gender.

And then it is not called pat down but body inspection.

No screener can do "private" search on an opposite gender.

You haven't travelled out of that country?
How is it relevant to BA then?
EDIT: Not on BA board anymore. Never mind.

You haven't travelled out of that country?

I am swedish. And I know that part . Since I can read swedish.

I am swedish. And I know that part . Since I can read swedish.

Makes sense.
Although I was just wondering why you didn't have any experiences with other countries, because this used to be on the BA board, so I was thinking that you had been to other countries.

Makes sense.
Although I was just wondering why you didn't have any experiences with other countries, because this used to be on the BA board, so I was thinking that you had been to other countries.

I live in USA since 1994. I am swedish . I have been in almost the whole world.
I also have friends in security in Sweden.

One thing that I do like in Sweden when it comes to security. it is that If you want not be touched you can strip to the same sex.

You do that here in USA you get arrested. Here that want o "touch" not see what they "touch". Double standars.

Just asked a police woman in Sweden. Men is not allowed to "touch" women in their privates at all.

One thing that I do like in Sweden when it comes to security. it is that If you want not be touched you can strip to the same sex..

Do they play music for you?

Do they play music for you?

That would be nice would it not!
Serious if I have to choose to have a total Female "stranger "touching" me . Me personal I would prefer NO TOUCH but I strip. Like it NO.

And No that has never happened YET.

I have noticed when going through security that there is sometimes a wait while a male security chap pats down each member of a queue of men going through whilst a lady stands aside.

Can we go through faster if we say that we are happy to be patted down by a member of the opposite sex?

Personally I would have no problem being patted down by a lady (I am a gentleman) if it made the queue go faster.

Me too - but then I am a midle aged horn dog;)

If I have to have a pat down, as a male pax, can I request to be patted down by a particular female agent--at a few airports there are some female agents who are really "hot" looking.:D:D

Why would these highly-trained, ethically-bound security professionals have any concern one way or the other about the gender of the passengers they are screening?

What they are doing is being carried out according to a very strict protocol with boundaries clearly stated, observed and understood by all. Each component of the screening is absolutely essential for the security of the passengers and the aircraft. Any inspection of the genital region is, of course, non-sexual from the screeners' perspective. (And we know that because they said so.) They are educated, trained and certified competent by a standardized examination of their knowledge and skills, and they are subject to having sanctions on their license should they fail to adhere to the technical and ethical standards of their profession.

So why would a screener have any concern whatsoever about the gender of the passengers he or she gropes? :confused:


Unless.....no that can't be, can it?.....it isn't like going to the doctor, after all, and it's more like getting a prostate exam from the Terminix man??

If I have to have a pat down, as a male pax, can I request to be patted down by a particular female agent--at a few airports there are some female agents who are really "hot" looking.:D:D

Those are never the ones who would be patting you down...go watch the video of the former TSO who demonstrated the crotch grab she had just gotten during a patdown on her former supervisor. Look at the TSO who did the patdown and tell me you want that "hottie" giving you the 'eye' and the grope....:D

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9700/5.0.0.979 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

At chinese airports, it's actually quite standard to be patted down by the opposite sex (at least for female security officer checking male passenger). I was in shenzhen yesterday with no line and passengers were rotating through the male and female security officers

As a gentleman who believes in equal respect and dignity for both genders I find China's practice of allowing females to search males but males are not allowed to search females
to be absolutely blatant gender-discrimination. After traveling most of the world for the last 40 years I have observed 99% of the world countries do not allow opposite sex search searches.
Places like China and Singapore are not respectful countries when it comes to showing equal respect and dignity for both genders. Shame on China, Singapore and any other country that practices this blatant gender discrimination.

I assume you're a female?

If I have to have a pat down, as a male pax, can I request to be patted down by a particular female agent--at a few airports there are some female agents who are really "hot" looking.:D:D

Where have you seen that?
LHR doesn't have too many.

If I have to have a pat down, as a male pax, can I request to be patted down by a particular female agent--at a few airports there are some female agents who are really "hot" looking.:D:D

I would not count on reciprocity.

If the whole "same sex search" phylosophy is all about reducing instances of, or reports of possible sexual misconduct, how does that work if you or the TSA/other screener are homosexual?

I personally don't care who does my searches. I just want to get in and out as quick as possible, but would a homosexual man be less likely to do (or be accused of doing) inapproprate things to another man than, say, a lesbian female searching a man?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a homophobe who's saying "He's gay, he grabbed my junk, he must have liked it." but what I AM saying is that having a person who is attacted to people of your sex should carry the same risks regardless of their sex. Male touching female= risk, therefore lesbian touching female= same risk. Female touching male= risk, therefore homosexual male touching male= same risk.

Or am I wrong?

I guess it would bother me either way. My apparent gender isn't my actual gender...

If the whole "same sex search" phylosophy is all about reducing instances of, or reports of possible sexual misconduct, how does that work if you or the TSA/other screener are homosexual?

I personally don't care who does my searches. I just want to get in and out as quick as possible, but would a homosexual man be less likely to do (or be accused of doing) inapproprate things to another man than, say, a lesbian female searching a man?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a homophobe who's saying "He's gay, he grabbed my junk, he must have liked it." but what I AM saying is that having a person who is attacted to people of your sex should carry the same risks regardless of their sex. Male touching female= risk, therefore lesbian touching female= same risk. Female touching male= risk, therefore homosexual male touching male= same risk.

Or am I wrong?

I think you play the percentages. So, no,thanks. Don't want some man feeling my daughter's crotch.

I think you play the percentages. So, no,thanks. Don't want some man feeling my daughter's crotch.

I don't thing "crotch grabbing" should be done at all. Anything that would be detected by the grabbing could just as easily be carried internally, where it wouldn't be detected by the "grab".

Just out of curiosity, though, how would you feel about a lesbian grabbing your daughter's crotch?

I don't thing "crotch grabbing" should be done at all. Anything that would be detected by the grabbing could just as easily be carried internally, where it wouldn't be detected by the "grab".

Just out of curiosity, though, how would you feel about a lesbian grabbing your daughter's crotch?

I would revert back to your first statement "I don't thin[k] "crotch grabbing" should be done at all." I agree that it isn't useful, and is not conscionable in an airport setting as it is done now. Innocent passengers treated as arrestees bound for jail. I've gone on a few international trips since 2010 and nowhere else have I seen the crotch invasions like TSA does it. And in places a lot closer to terrorist activity than the US.

Per TSA SOP, passengers get a same-sex pat-down; however, a passenger is considered to be whatever sex he presents himself to be. If you want a female officer to pat you down, ask for one after you state that you are a woman, and vice versa, of course.

Honestly, if you want to gum-up the works more than by just opting-out, this will do it.

Per TSA SOP, passengers get a same-sex pat-down; however, a passenger is considered to be whatever sex he presents himself to be. If you want a female officer to pat you down, ask for one after you state that you are a woman, and vice versa, of course.

Honestly, if you want to gum-up the works more than by just opting-out, this will do it.

would facial hair disqualify one from this option?

If the grope is not sexual, why should it matter?

My family physician is a woman and many women have male doctors. In a specifically non-sexual situation, people generally accept whoever is competent.

The problem with the TSA is that they recognize that the passenger has no choice in the specific person they get and the intimate nature of the grope has a certain amount of sexual contact. They do not want to admit that it is sexual contact, but that is the only reason that they would not permit opposite sex gropes and specifically deny opposite sex requests.

would facial hair disqualify one from this option?

The mysterious bearded lady? :D

OTOH, there have been times where a female in the terminal does in fact have more facial hair than I at that moment.

Just out of curiosity, though, how would you feel about a lesbian grabbing your daughter's crotch?

It's un-PC to ask a TSO if she is gay prior to her patting you down. Don't ask me how I know.