bmi diamond club - EI moving from BFS to BHD

According to the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18454784)

Co-operation with BA anyone?

Sounds like the BBC reporter has been reading PPrune where there have been many rumours but few facts. No confirmation from EI or BHD management yet. Perhaps an opportunity for BFS to lower their charges, but I suppose it would make a lot of sense for EI/BA cooperation.

Sounds like the BBC reporter has been reading PPrune where there have been many rumours but few facts. No confirmation from EI or BHD management yet. Perhaps an opportunity for BFS to lower their charges, but I suppose it would make a lot of sense for EI/BA cooperation.

If true, i think it is a signal BA won't be running BHD route much longer. I'd like to see BHD-BHX taken up by them though as FlyBe have stranglehold on BHD-BFS since WW went.

If true, i think it is a signal BA won't be running BHD route much longer.

I can't imagine BA giving up the BHD route and leaving most of it for EI to enjoy on their own apart from giving some transfer traffic to BA.
This route has been earning good money for bmi for some time now with very good yields from point to point traffic. On most peak flights nearly 3/4 or more of the aircraft is reserved for flexible economy customers.
With BA's strong commercial strength i'm sure they can make this route an even bigger success than what bmi was able to make of it.

However I see the opposite with the DUB route as there is a lot more transfering and leisure traffic with lower yields. With EI's high frequency on the route it makes perfect sense for them to continue operating on behalf of BA which will allow BA to use the bmi slots for other longhaul routes.

FlyBe have stranglehold on BHD-BFS since WW went.

Not much of a market for that one :p

Not much of a market for that one :p :D :D. Is my memory playing tricks on me or were there some Flybe (well Jersey European then) flights that used to stop at both airports, making a short hop from BFS to BHD and then onwards to their destination?

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Not much of a market for that one :p :D :D. Is my memory playing tricks on me or were there some Flybe (well Jersey European then) flights that used to stop at both airports, making a short hop from BFS to BHD and then onwards to their destination?

They had a short-lived tag on STN-BHD-LDY using a BAE146 and then a SD360. Didn't last very long, was back in the mid 90s IIRC.

They had a short-lived tag on STN-BHD-LDY using a BAE146 and then a SD360. Didn't last very long, was back in the mid 90s IIRC.

Can't remember that one but I do remember Capital (?) doing a LTN-BHD run with 360 and 146 and DUB-BHD with just the 360.

Not much of a market for that one :p

D'Oh! meant BHX

How I'd love to see an alternative to Flybe on BHD-BHX

On most peak flights nearly 3/4 or more of the aircraft is reserved for flexible economy customers.
With BA's strong commercial strength i'm sure they can make this route an even bigger success than what bmi was able to make of it.


I don't think that statement is correct. I am a regular traveller on the BD81, BD90 and BD92, all of which would be classed as peak flights. There have nearly always been only 6-8 rows of flexible economy when I have been on these flights in the last few months. Typical loading on a bmi peak time flight of late seems to be around 60%-70%. It's not many years since they were nearly always full, plus in those days the average fare paid would have been a lot higher.

I very much doubt that bmi were making any profit on BHD-LHR of late.

I don't think that statement is correct. I am a regular traveller on the BD81, BD90 and BD92, all of which would be classed as peak flights. There have nearly always been only 6-8 rows of flexible economy when I have been on these flights in the last few months. Typical loading on a bmi peak time flight of late seems to be around 60%-70%. It's not many years since they were nearly always full, plus in those days the average fare paid would have been a lot higher.

I very much doubt that bmi were making any profit on BHD-LHR of late.I agree that flex economy was rarely more than 6 rows, but fare prices over the last year have been sky high IMO. I've regularly paid £400 lowest fare even when booking 7-10 days ahead. Only in the last 3 months have fares reduced, even more so since it became bookable through BA.

I agree that flex economy was rarely more than 6 rows, but fare prices over the last year have been sky high IMO. I've regularly paid £400 lowest fare even when booking 7-10 days ahead. Only in the last 3 months have fares reduced, even more so since it became bookable through BA.

An therein was the problem - revenue management was strange on both BHD-LHR and DUB-LHR high fares but few paxs even on peak flights. There was a tread on this. Since flights moved to ba.com it seems that the ba rev. management is being used hence more sensible fares. For example, a few weeks ago was looking for a cheap fare LHR-BHD in late August for my daughter - flybmi.com quoted £172 and hurry only one seat left. Same flight now is coming in on ba.com at £54, expert flyer showing plenty of seats left in all classes.

I don't think that statement is correct. I am a regular traveller on the BD81, BD90 and BD92, all of which would be classed as peak flights. There have nearly always been only 6-8 rows of flexible economy when I have been on these flights in the last few months. Typical loading on a bmi peak time flight of late seems to be around 60%-70%. It's not many years since they were nearly always full, plus in those days the average fare paid would have been a lot higher.

I very much doubt that bmi were making any profit on BHD-LHR of late.

Maybe my experiences in the last 12 months have been BD88 and BD90 on Wednesday and Thursday afternoons.

In the early 1990s, LHR-BFS was one of BA's most profitable routes.

Northern Ireland people (of which I am one) apparently didn't travel much back then, and when they did, they liked to be back home for dinner, so the 5-6 rotations per day were full in both directions on both BA and BD flying BFS-LHR. There was also space for Jersey European (now FlyBe) flying BHD-LGW and even Manx doing BHD-LHR.

I flew very regularly back and forth in those days.

Then the low-cost carriers came and it all changed. Not surprisingly fares plummeted. Around 40% of travelers on the Belfast-London route will choose the cheapest seat, regardless of carrier.

This will not have helped BA & BD's profits on the route.

BD then moved to BHD, a wise move for business travelers going to Belfast.

At the time of their exit from BFS, BA said they were losing a few million per year on the route.

I do not know about BD's profitability on the route of late, but it will be interesting to see what BA does with all the domestic routes they have acquired along with the rest of BD.

In the early 1990s, LHR-BFS was one of BA's most profitable routes.

Northern Ireland people (of which I am one) apparently didn't travel much back then, and when they did, they liked to be back home for dinner, so the 5-6 rotations per day were full in both directions on both BA and BD flying BFS-LHR. There was also space for Jersey European (now FlyBe) flying BHD-LGW and even Manx doing BHD-LHR.

I flew very regularly back and forth in those days.

Then the low-cost carriers came and it all changed. Not surprisingly fares plummeted. Around 40% of travelers on the Belfast-London route will choose the cheapest seat, regardless of carrier.

This will not have helped BA & BD's profits on the route.

BD then moved to BHD, a wise move for business travelers going to Belfast.

At the time of their exit from BFS, BA said they were losing a few million per year on the route.

I do not know about BD's profitability on the route of late, but it will be interesting to see what BA does with all the domestic routes they have acquired along with the rest of BD.

You kind of sumed it all up really . That was the way it certainly was . It wasnt un common for business professionals to pay GBP250-300 for a day return to LHR EDI etc... People seemed to accept it in those days when the company were paying for it thats of course until the LCC came in and companies laid down spend caps for staff travel. BA and BD felt the pinch.

In the 90's, pre LCC, rock bottom on BFS-LHR was around £110 return. Anything below that was rarer than rocking horse s..t. A sale fare might, just might, have occasionally produced a fare of circa £95.

In the early 1990s, LHR-BFS was one of BA's most profitable routes. Do you have any source for that? IIRC, when BA pulled out of BFS, the route was rumoured to have been losing money for years and laying it all entirely on the LCCs does not sound very plausible: EZY only started LTN-BFS in 1998 and their significant expansion at BFS to a range of destinations was after BA pulled out. If BA planes were that full prior to EZY and people ready to pay a lot of money, there would still have been plenty of room to make decent profits. It is not as if EZY flooded BFS with gazillions of seats in 1998-2000.

It seems to me more likely that the route was doing OK-ish for BA but not especially brilliantly before the LCCs. The advent of the LCCs was enough to tip it well into the red but not from the base of a highly profitable route.

Fact is that the Northern Irish market is not that big. Even KLM, that used to fly to just about every airfield in the UK, gave up on BFS in 1999. If there was that big a market, this would not have happened.

It wasnt un common for business professionals to pay GBP250-300 for a day return to LHR EDI etc...

I remember that circa 1994/5 the best value BA or BD day return BFS-LHR was £172ish.

You were allowed one change free of charge, so you booked yourself onto the last LHR-BFS flight of the day, but if you got finished up early, went to the airport and changed onto the next available.

How times have changed... maybe EI can make it work.

I'm sure BA have had a fascinating time, deconstructing the revenue effects of all the BD service changes we have endured over the last few years. I suspect that none of them made the route profitable though!

Do you have any source for that?

[Route profitability in the early 1990s] = a friend's father who worked for BA at the time. So slightly more reliable than a bloke down the pub, but I will concede the point that I did not see any detailed figures.

IIRC, when BA pulled out of BFS, the route was rumoured to have been losing money for years and laying it all entirely on the LCCs does not sound very plausible.

I remember those press releases from BA as well. They did blame the LCCs for their withdrawl. Convenient excuse, maybe? (recall BD's press release on axing the LHR-GLA route last year)

It is not as if EZY flooded BFS with gazillions of seats in 1998-2000. It seems to me more likely that the route was doing OK-ish for BA but not especially brilliantly before the LCCs. The advent of the LCCs was enough to tip it well into the red but not from the base of a highly profitable route.

Sorry I do not know about that - I moved to England at the start of 1997. But there were quite a few other LCCs than Easyjet - e.g. Go, plus at least one or two other short-lived ones who just did Belfast to London. Perhaps someone who lived there more recently than me can comment?

Fact is that the Northern Irish market is not that big.

True. And there are a lot of people living in the southern counties who are better off driving to DUB and flying direct rather than driving an equal distance to BFS then connecting in London. If you're on the 'wrong' side of Lough Neagh, it's a very long way round it to BFS.

Even KLM, that used to fly to just about every airfield in the UK, gave up on BFS in 1999. If there was that big a market, this would not have happened.

KLM got quite a lot of connecting traffic into AMS, IIRC. When I lived in Belfast it was the only direct international scheduled flight from BFS.
But the advent of more direct international flights (Easyjet et al) probably stopped it being worthwhile for them.

If BA planes were that full prior to EZY and people ready to pay a lot of money there would still have been plenty of room to make decent profits

Easyjet had nothing to do with it. Even prior to their joining the market, BA's planes were nowhere near full while BD's were. BD had hoovered up most of the corporates on the route too including Government.

In the 90's, pre LCC, rock bottom on BFS-LHR was around £110 return. Anything below that was rarer than rocking horse s..t. A sale fare might, just might, have occasionally produced a fare of circa £95.

You were doing well to find anything at that level!

All these fares are pre-APD as well - so most of the money actually went to the airline, not HMRC.

I also remember that if you were flying BFS-LHR-XXX, the add-on for the BFS-LHR return was £70 back then.

I remember those press releases from BA as well. They did blame the LCCs for their withdrawl. Convenient excuse, maybe? (recall BD's press release on axing the LHR-GLA route last year)More like the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back: it did not help but was not in itself the major cause.

Sorry I do not know about that - I moved to England at the start of 1997. But there were quite a few other LCCs than Easyjet - e.g. Go, plus at least one or two other short-lived ones who just did Belfast to London.Well, GO was owned by BA so it was hardly them that caused BA problem. I do not seem to recal Go flying to BFS but my memory could conceivaby fail me.

Air UK (under KLM ownership) DID fly STN-BFS but this was not an LCC. They too, however, eventually gave up, IIRC a couple of years before KL itself abandoned the AMS-BFS route.

KLM got quite a lot of connecting traffic into AMS, IIRC. When I lived in Belfast it was the only direct international scheduled flight from BFS.
But the advent of more direct international flights (Easyjet et al) probably stopped it being worthwhile for them.Yes, I was a regular KL flyer at the time and was mightily pissed off when they abandoned the BFS route. This, however, was before Easyjet started their routes to continental Europe. KL did not have much competition at all at BFS (other than BD and BA). It is just that the traffic was too thin for it to be worth their while.

Easyjet had nothing to do with it. Even prior to their joining the market, BA's planes were nowhere near full while BD's were. BD had hoovered up most of the corporates on the route too including Government.That was indeed my understanding. It was not the LCCs which were the issue.

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Internal transfer pricing can magically turn any route with a high percentage of connecting pax from a loss-making dog into a cash cow and vice versa at the stroke of a pen.

It's inarguable the NI-LON market is more competitive now than when BA first pulled out. I see 3 options if EI follow through as expected and move to BHD:
1) existing codesharing is ended and there is true competition on both BHD and DUB
2) BA & EI co-ordinate, each operating 4 services on own metal interspersed throughout the day.
3) BA end service on their own metal.

I think 2 is most likely, but all 3 possible.

You were allowed one change free of charge, so you booked yourself onto the last LHR-BFS flight of the day, but if you got finished up early, went to the airport and changed onto the next available.

Not that their frequency can match BA before the LCC revolution, but Easyjet offer this for free. I've used it many a time between Glasgow and Belfast, especially because the last flight home is often cheaper than the penultimate one. From their T&Cs (http://www.easyjet.com/en/book/regulations.html#a9) (which haven't been updated since the brief dalliance with BHD a year or two ago):

9.1.5 The fees for transfers made online and for transfers made through the Customer Service Team via the Sales Desk at the airport are found in Our Fees and Charges.

If You arrive early at the airport for Your Flight, You may transfer for free to an earlier Flight on the same day as the Flight booked where that earlier Flight has seats available and where it would not cause a delay to its departure, subject to the following:

(a) You must have already made an outbound Flight with Us on the same Booking and be returning to the original point of departure from the original destination in that Booking. For additional convenience, if Your original point of departure is a London, Rome, Paris, Belfast or Milan airport served by easyJet, where available, We will allow You to return to any London airport (i.e. Gatwick, Luton, or Stansted), any Rome airport (i.e. Rome Ciampino, Rome Fiumicino), any Paris airport (i.e. Paris Charles de Gaulle or Paris Orly), any Belfast airport (Belfast City and Belfast International Airport) or any Milan airport (Linate or Malpensa), respectively;

(b) You must observe the check-in times for the earlier Flight as set out in Article 12 (Check-in); and

(c) We reserve the right to refuse Your request to transfer to an earlier Flight if in Our opinion any of the above conditions are not met, or for safety or operational reasons.

I remember that circa 1994/5 the best value BA or BD day return BFS-LHR was £172ish.

You were allowed one change free of charge, so you booked yourself onto the last LHR-BFS flight of the day, but if you got finished up early, went to the airport and changed onto the next available.



Found the fares guide from 1995 :)

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/bdfq2.jpg

That QQJ fare was a tough one to get. Always on the last flight ex BFS and back the first one ex LHR if I remember correctly. Booked ages in advance and only valid for random dates .

You were spot on with the SDD fare.