US Airways Dividend Miles - Refundable vs. changeable

Answer should be obvious, but I talked with a US Airways rep and looked at their Web site, but I'm still confused. Both state that with refundable tickets one can make changes for free, and the credit of a canceled ticket can be applied to a new ticket, while for a non-refundable ticket one must pay $250to make any changes. If the fare does say refundable doesn't that mean you'd get a full refund if you choose? Sure, on the face of it it seems obvious, but the rep I talked to by phone didn't portray it as such. This would be for an Envoy class trip (looking for dats whn refundable fare is available).

There are several types of fares (understatement of the year). Some are refundable with a fee. Some are 100% refundable with no fee. Some are changeable but not refundable. Some are non-refundable and non-changeable. You get the picture. You need to look up the exact fare rules for the ticket you have to see what the story is...

Good luck! ^

Look up fare rules? You've got to be kidding.

Here's a typical UA fare rule:

Sales and Restrictions GENERAL RULES TEXT
NOTE -
EXTENSION OF TICKET VALIDITY DUE TO MEDICAL
REASONS PERMITTED UNDER GUIDELINES SET FORTH
BY CARRIER. CONTACT CARRIER FOR DETAILS.
)
Refunds/Change FARE RULES TEXT
CANCELLATIONS
BEFORE DEPARTURE
CHARGE GBP 120.00 FOR CANCEL/NO-SHOW/REFUND.
WAIVED FOR SCHEDULE CHANGE.
NOTE -
--
PENALTY DOES NOT APPLY TO INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
--
GENERAL DOES NOT APPLY // FOLLOW CAT19 FOR
CHILD AND INFANT WITH A SEAT
--
A. UA CUSTOMER COMMITMENT
--
CUSTOMERS WHO PURCHASE A TICKET FOR TRAVEL
ON UNITED VIA UA CHANNELS MAY CANCEL THEIR
RESERVATIONS/REFUND TICKET WITHOUT PENALTY
WITHIN 24HRS OF PURCHASE.
--
FULL REFUND PERMITTED BEFORE DEPARTURE IN CASE
) OF REFUSAL OF TRAVEL DOCUMENTS.
EMBASSY STATEMENT REQUIRED.
--
B. EXCHANGE - CHANGE TO 1ST TICKETED FLIGHT /
WHOLLY UNUSED TICKET
--
FULL VALUE OF WHOLLY UNUSED TICKET MAY BE
APPLIED TOWARDS PURCHASE OF A NEW TICKET PRICED
AT CURRENT FARE LEVELS UPON PAYMENT OF THE
CANCEL FEE CONTAINED WITHIN THIS RULE AND
DIFFERENCE IN FARE/TAX/FEES/SURCHARGES
COLLECTED/REFUNDED AT TIME OF EXCHANGE
--
THE OPTIONAL PAYMENT CHARGE WILL NOT BE REFUNDED
--
TAG-5 - WHOLLY UNUSED CHANGE TO 1ST TICKETED
FLIGHT COUPON
- APPLIES WITHIN TICKET VALIDITY
CERTAIN DOMESTIC REISSUE PROVISIONS MAY BE
OVERRIDDEN BY THOSE OF UA INTERNATIONAL FARES
CHARGE CHANGE FEE OF 1ST TICKETED FLIGHT COUPON
REPRICE USING CURRENT QUALIFYING FARES
1. AC/LH/LX/OS/SN/UA FARES ARE USED
2. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM REISSUE DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
3. TKT REISSUE RESTRICTED TO UA OR ANY CARRIER
--WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND
RESIDUAL THEN ADD-COLLECT / REFUND VIA ORIGINAL
FORM OF PAYMENT
ENDORSEMENT BOX - HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND
NEW ENDORSEMENTS
--
--
C. LOWER FARE INTRODUCED OR AVAILABLE IN MARKET
--
WHEN A LOWER FARE IS INTRODUCED INTO THE MARKET
OR A CURRENT FARE IS REDUCED / THE TICKETED
PASSENGER MAY QUALIFY. ALL PROVISIONS OF THE
LOWER FARE MUST BE MET BEFORE DEPARTURE.
NO CHANGE TO ORIGIN/DESTINATION/DATES/FLIGHTS.
ONLY BOOKING CODE CHANGE IS PERMITTED.
--
A SERVICE FEE EQUAL TO CHANGE FEE WILL
BE ASSESSED. RESIDUAL VALUE/IF ANY/ WILL BE
RETURNED TO THE ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT.
--
--TAG 7 -- ONLY BOOKING CODE CHANGE PERMITTED
CHARGE CHANGE FEE OR HIGHEST FEE ALL
-- ALL CHANGED FARE COMPONENTS --
REPRICE USING CURRENT QUALIFYING FARES
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING PROVISIONS ARE MET
1. NO CHANGE TO FARE BREAKS
2. CHANGE IS ON/BEFORE ORIGINAL SCHEDULED FLIGHT
3. UA FARES ARE USED
4. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM REISSUE DATE TO
) DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
--WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND
RESIDUAL VALUE THEN ADD-COLLECT
REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT
ENDORSEMENT BOX - NEW ENDORSEMENTS
--
D. EMERGENCY PROVISION
--
TICKET MAY BE USED TOWARD PURCHASE OF
ANOTHER TICKET DUE TO AN EMERGENCY OF
PASSENGER / IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER OR
TRAVELING COMPANION.
DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED CONTACT CARRIER.
AFTER DEPARTURE
CHARGE GBP 120.00 FOR CANCEL/NO-SHOW/REFUND.
WAIVED FOR SCHEDULE CHANGE.
NOTE -
--
PENALTY DOES NOT APPLY TO INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
--
GENERAL DOES NOT APPLY // FOLLOW CAT 19
FOR CHILD / INFANT WITH A SEAT.
--
THE OPTIONAL PAYMENT CHARGE WILL NOT BE REFUNDED
--
CALCULATE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FARE PAID AND
QUALIFYING FARE FOR TRAVEL COMPLETE
USING FARES OF ORIGINAL TICKET DATE /
LESS CANCEL PENALTY /
REFUND RESIDUAL VALUE IF ANY TO ORIGINAL
FORM OF PAYMENT.
CHANGES
ANY TIME
CHARGE GBP 120.00 FOR REISSUE/REVALIDATION.
WAIVED FOR SCHEDULE CHANGE.
NOTE -
--
PENALTY DOES NOT APPLY TO INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
--
GENERAL RULE DOES NOT APPLY / FOLLOW CAT19
FOR CHILD / INFANT WITH A SEAT
--
IN THE EVENT OF CHANGE TO TICKETED FLIGHTS
- APPLIED WITHIN TKT VALIDITY --
CERTAIN DOMESTIC REISSUE PROVISIONS
MAY BE OVERRIDDEN BY THOSE OF UA
INTERNATIONAL FARES.
--
CHARGE CHANGE FEE OR HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED
FARE COMPONENTS-NO FEE FOR INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
--
TAG 1 - KEEP THE FARE --
--
CHARGE CHANGE FEE OR HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED
FARE COMPONENTS - NO FEE FOR INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
) --- REPRICE USING CURRENTLY TKTD FARE ---
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING PROVISIONS ARE MET
1. NO CHANGE TO 1ST FLIGHT COUPON/FARE BREAKS
2. WHEN NO INTL COUPONS REMAIN - ALL NEW TRAVEL
MUST BE DOMESTIC
3. CHANGE IS BEFORE ORIGINAL SCHEDULED FLIGHT
4. AC/SN/LH/LX/OS/UA FARES ARE USED
5. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
EXCEPT ADV RES-TKTG
6. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
7. TKT REISSUE RESTRICTED TO UA OR ANY CARRIER
--
WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND /
THEN ADD COLLECT
REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT ---
ENDORSEMENT BOX - HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND
NEW ENDORSEMENTS
--
OR
--
TAG 2 - HISTORICAL FARE --
CHARGE CHANGE FEE OR HIGHEST FEE OF ALL CHANGED
FARE COMPONENTS - NO FEE FOR INFANT WITHOUT A SEAT
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT WHEN TKT WAS ISSUED
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET
1. NO CHANGE TO 1ST FLIGHT COUPON
2. WHEN NO INTL COUPONS REMAIN - ALL NEW TRAVEL
MUST BE DOMESTIC
3. AC/SN/LH/LX/OS/UA B-/M-/U-/H-/Q-/V-/W-/S-/T-
FARE FAMILY IS USED
4. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
5. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
6. TKT REISSUE RESTRICTED TO UA OR ANY CARRIER
--
OR
--
REPRICE USING FARES IN EFFECT WHEN TKT WAS ISSUED
PROVIDED ALL OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE MET-
1. NO CHANGE TO 1ST FLIGHT COUPON
2. WHEN NO INTL COUPONS REMAIN - ALL NEW TRAVEL
MUST BE DOMESTIC
3. AC/SN/LH/LX/OS/UA FARES ARE USED
4. NEW TKT HAS EQUAL OR HIGHER VALUE THAN
PREVIOUS TKT
5. ALL RULE AND BOOKING CODE PROVISIONS ARE MET
6. ADV RES IS MEASURED FROM ORIGINAL TKT DATE TO
DEPARTURE OF PRICING UNIT
7. TKT REISSUE RESTRICTED TO UA OR ANY CARRIER
--
WHEN CHANGE RESULTS IN LOWER FARE REFUND
RESIDUAL // THEN ADD-COLLECT
REFUND VIA ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT ----
ENDORSEMENT BOX - HIGHER NON-REF AMT AND
) NEW ENDORSEMENTS .
--
B. EMERGENCY PROVISION
--
TICKET MAY BE USED TOWARD THE PURCHASE
OF ANOTHER TICKET IF DUE TO AN EMERGENCY OF
PASSENGER / IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER OR
TRAVELING COMPANION.
DOCUMENTATION REQUIRED CONTACT CARRIER.
Minimum Stay FARE RULES TEXT
TRAVEL FROM INBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR MUST COMMENCE NO
EARLIER THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER DEPARTURE OF THE OUTBOUND
TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR.
Maximum Stay FARE RULES TEXT
TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 12
MONTHS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN.
Advance Purchase Requirement FARE RULES TEXT
RESERVATIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR ALL SECTORS.
TICKETING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 72 HOURS AFTER
RESERVATIONS ARE MADE.
NOTE -
WAITLIST NOT PERMITTED AT TIME OF TICKETING.
-----
DUE TO AUTOMATED TICKETING DEADLINE CONTROL
DIFFERENCE COULD EXIST BETWEEN THE FARE RULE
LAST TICKETING DATE AND THE SYSTEM GENERATED
TICKETING DEADLINE MESSAGE.
THE MORE RESTRICTIVE TICKETING DEADLINE APPLIES.
Day/Time Application FARE RULES TEXT
PERMITTED MON THROUGH THU ON EACH TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR.
Seasonality FARE RULES TEXT
PERMITTED 25JUN 11 THROUGH 21AUG 11 OR 23JUN 12 THROUGH
18AUG 12 ON THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR.
Blackout Dates NONE
Combinability FARE RULES TEXT
APPLICABLE ADD-ON CONSTRUCTION IS ADDRESSED IN
MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS - CATEGORY 23.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED WITH FARES WITHIN AREA
1. VALIDATE ALL FARE COMPONENTS. SIDE TRIPS PERMITTED.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE FOR CARRIER UA/AC
OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS.
MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/LESS THAN
MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE COMPONENT.
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS
A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
PERMITTED.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR CARRIER LH/UA/AC/OS/
LX/SN IN ANY RULE IN TARIFF
IPRA - USA/CANADA-AREA 2/3 AND GUAM-AREA 2 VIA
ATLANTIC
IPRAI - BETWEEN THE USA/CANADA-AREA 2/3 VIA ATLANTIC
IPRSAA2 - BETWEEN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE-AREA 2 VIA
ATLANTIC
IPRSAA3 - BETWEEN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE-AREA 3 VIA
ATLANTIC.
Eligibility NO RESTRICTIONS
Discounts Child Discounts
FARE RULES TEXT
ACCOMPANIED CHILD 2-11 - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF THE FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
FOR CHILDREN TURNING 12 YEARS ENROUTE ADULT FARE
HAS TO BE USED FOR THE ENTIRE JOURNEY.
OR - INFANT UNDER 2 WITH A SEAT - CHARGE 75 PERCENT OF THE
FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - CH AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT
OR - INFANT UNDER 2 WITHOUT A SEAT - CHARGE 10 PERCENT OF
THE FARE.
TICKET DESIGNATOR - IN AND PERCENT OF DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
FOR INFANTS TURNING 2 YEARS ENROUTE- DUE TO SAFETY
REGULATIONS- A BOOKED SEAT WILL BE REQUIRED FOR
THE REMAINING PORTIONS OF THE JOURNEY.WHEN A
SEPARATE SEAT IS REQUIRED ON A PORTION OF THE
JOURNEY-CHILD FARE HAS TO BE USED FOR THE ENTIRE
JOURNEY.
OR - UNACCOMPANIED CHILD 5-11. ID REQUIRED - NO DISCOUNT.
NOTE -
UNACCOMPANIED CHILD UNDER 5 YEARS OF AGE WILL NOT
BE ACCEPTED FOR CARRIAGE. SERVICE CHARGE FOR
) UNACCOMPANIED CHILD APPLIES.THE SERVICE WILL
BE OFFERED ONLY ON UA OPERATING FLIGHTS

Tour Conductor
DISCOUNT DOES NOT APPLY

Agent Discounts
DISCOUNT DOES NOT APPLY

Other Discounts
FARE RULES TEXT
NOTE -
NOT PERMITTED.
Surcharges DOES NOT APPLY
Stopovers FARE RULES TEXT
STOPOVERS NOT PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT.
Flight Applications FARE RULES TEXT
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AREA 1
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST NOT BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY LH FLIGHT OPERATED BY B6.
AND
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST INCLUDE TRAVEL VIA EACH
TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY LH
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY LX
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY OS
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY SN
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY UA.

Now please tell me whether one can fly the outbound portion and change the return? and if so, how much? I certainly can't figure it out. And this is supposed to be a "flexible" fare. Whaaaat?

Why are you talking about a UA fare in a US forum? :confused:

I'm currently on a similar UA fare at the moment. UA would have charged me $500 to cancel the ticket and $400 for any changes.

Similarly, based on your fair rules, you would have to pay 120 GBP to cancel your ticket before flying. You can change your ticket as well, but you will have to pay 120GBP PLUS any fare differential if there is one. You could conceivably get money back as well if the fare dropped. UA doesn't let you apply the refund to the change fee. You'd have to pay the 120 GBP in new money before you could get anything back.

Always read the fare rules as that is what the airline will look at when answering your questions about fees, changes, etc.

While there are fully refundable fares without fees in lower buckets, typically you have to buy a Y/B to be completely penalty free.

Why are you talking about a UA fare in a US forum? :confused:

Because the poster assumes that UA's lengthy fare rules are typical of all airlines' (or at least US's) fare rules? It would seem to make sense.

why, because this is a good example of an incomprehensible fare rule. My question, which you ignored, is "what is the charge to change the return flight after travel has commenced?"

Maybe you can see it somewhere in the fare rule. I can't. And this language is pretty opaque to someone like me who is not an expert in airline fare rules.

So the advice "always read the fare rules" does not help many people. what good is it to read a rule that is incomprehensible?

why, because this is a good example of an incomprehensible fare rule. My question, which you ignored, is "what is the charge to change the return flight after travel has commenced?"

Maybe you can see it somewhere in the fare rule. I can't. And this language is pretty opaque to someone like me who is not an expert in airline fare rules.

So the advice "always read the fare rules" does not help many people. what good is it to read a rule that is incomprehensible?

I have to agree with this statement. I am having a hard time finding a Fully Refundable Fare from BOM (Mumbai) to Sao Paulo as its not really clear which airline would not have any financial penalty/ charges on such a booking.

I've seen some *A carriers post fully refundable fares - after a small fee. OZ charged like $30 to refund a ticket - a sort of administrative fee.

If possible, try to find fares that are based on the same fare rules. Otherwise, the most restrictive fare binds the whole ticket - even if combined with a refundable fare.

If there are any questions after reading the fare rules, it's best either to call the airline or a reputable travel agent.

One thing that can help is to check the rules on a full fare ticket for your class, such as a Y, C/J, or F ticket, and compare it to the fare rules you're looking for. You'll see where the fees and the snags are in the rules then more clearly. The Y/B, C/J, and F tickets are going to be your fully unrestricted tickets, with minimal, if any fees. Anything beyond that starts adding in more restrictions depending on the hierarchy for a particular airline.

I posted a similar thread in the DL forum. On the DL site they have a box you can check for "Refundable Fares Only." However what they mean by "refundable" is that you can get your money back in cash after the change fee, rather then getting just a voucher. Based on my conversation with a supervisor, DL seems to know that it is misleading and doesn't care.

I asked the supervisor what fares were fully refundable and it took her nearly a half-hour to figure it out.

Pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me.

That is what I am having a tough time trying to do. I'd like to know CLEAR values of what "charges" would apply and HOW MUCH they would be on such "Unrestricted"/"Fully Refundable" Fares.

I posted a similar thread in the DL forum. On the DL site they have a box you can check for "Refundable Fares Only." However what they mean by "refundable" is that you can get your money back in cash after the change fee, rather then getting just a voucher. Based on my conversation with a supervisor, DL seems to know that it is misleading and doesn't care.

I asked the supervisor what fares were fully refundable and it took her nearly a half-hour to figure it out.

Pretty disgusting behavior if you ask me.

I've seen some *A carriers post fully refundable fares - after a small fee. OZ charged like $30 to refund a ticket - a sort of administrative fee.

If possible, try to find fares that are based on the same fare rules. Otherwise, the most restrictive fare binds the whole ticket - even if combined with a refundable fare.

If there are any questions after reading the fare rules, it's best either to call the airline or a reputable travel agent.

One thing that can help is to check the rules on a full fare ticket for your class, such as a Y, C/J, or F ticket, and compare it to the fare rules you're looking for. You'll see where the fees and the snags are in the rules then more clearly. The Y/B, C/J, and F tickets are going to be your fully unrestricted tickets, with minimal, if any fees. Anything beyond that starts adding in more restrictions depending on the hierarchy for a particular airline.

I have been researching on ITA Matrix but how do I filter and see only FULLY-REFUNDABLE fares.

I spoke with a travel agent today and he said most airlines have almost a $100 penalty on cancellation.

He did mention that with Qatar Airways I could get away with around "1200 Rs" i.e. 20-25$ of charges.

I called Qatar directly and they mentioned "7000 Rs" as cancellation charge but then said if I booked online there was a "Super Flexible" fare of the Fare Class B where I could BOOK & CANCEL online and there would be no loss / penalty/ charge - BUT.. I would have to READ & CHECK through the SPECIFIC FARE RULES before booking.

The FARE Rules are long, winded and not clear and comprehensible. The issue is that all this leads me into GRAY AREAS.

Can someone with more experience with Airlines and Flight fares please GUIDE me with some specifics about SPECIFIC AIRLINES and their FARES/ FARE CLASSES that would be FULLY REFUNDABLE - Either purchase through Airlines website/ phone center or travel agent.

I am open to suggestions.

These are my airline options. Any advise/ experience/ suggestions from people on choosing a REFUNDABLE FARE on one of them is welcome.

- Turkish
- Qatar
- South African
- Swiss
- Emirates
- Lufthansa
- KLM

(and some Code Share Mixes between the above)