China - Comparing Beijing vs. Chinese cities from the perspective of living there

Since I simply can't find the old thread (that I started), I am started a new one (mods; feel free to merge away):

Beijiing
pros:
-great people (far nicer than Shanghai... apart from exceptions to the rule, of course)
-the government is there; if you can even partially insert yourself into that crowd, you will gain valuable insights about policy changes that could affect your investments
-highest concentration of your portfolio companies
-the two best universities in China (Beida and Tsinghua) are in Beijing; there are over 100 listed companies in Haidian alone
-good art/music scene (it's been said that political oppression and harsh living conditions are catalysts for artists)
-cool tourist attractions (i.e. you will enjoy them yourself, and people will want to visit you... Shanghai simply doesn't compare)

cons:
-traffic
-pollution
-food is far inferior to Shanghai and HK
-the bureaucracy can be stifling at times
-it's not a very pretty city

Shanghai
pros:
-it's strong in finance, though I honestly can't say it's stronger than Beijing (more high profile, perhaps, but I know more smart bankers in BJ than I do in Shanghai... perhaps because they are physically closer to the companies they monitor)
-far better food than Beijing
-less traffic and pollution than Beijing; on a related note, Shanghai taxis are easy to get and the fare is almost always y14 because we rarely travel very far
-it really feels like a western city, and is extremely expat friendly

cons:
-a lot of obnoxious people, both locals and expats
*this situation was far worse circa 2008 when Tom Cruise and his cronies hit town, but it still persists to some degree
*they are obsessed with money and image
-the pace of life is super fast
*while this might suit your personality, I get burnt out at times (Beijing is far more relaxing; I attribute this in part to the government being slow moving and in part to the traffic... you will never have more than 6 meetings per day in BJ)
-in spite of the fact that its pollution is not near as bad as Beijing's (it is still bad, mind you), I can't of a single place on the planet that is situated in a less desirable climate than Shanghai
*sweltering heat during the summer
*winter feels really cold because: 1) the humidity; and 2) there is no central heating grid south of the Yangtze River, which means most apartments used forced air heating

Hong Kong
pros:
-well, it is just plain nice
-lots of well connected expats
-far better air quality than BJ and SH
-if you ever require institutional capital, it is better than anywhere in China

cons:
-it's not China
-surprisingly, the bulk of the afforementioned expats that I've met really don't care about China
-the cost of living is substantial
*on this note, my best friend had a pretty big housing allowance, and was free to live in a shack and pocket the difference
*but, he decided to spend the entire amount in order to live in style ---> this move fetched him 5 big clients (a person of your stature can not do the "Mid Levels" routine)

Shenzhen
pros:
-Shekou is very nice
*good food
*near the airport, which serves far more domestic destinations than HKG
-1/3 the price of HK on the housing front, and about 30% less for other stuff
-you will be able to meet rich Chinese people that have never contemplated the idea of investing in stuff other than real estate
-very green city (in the literal sense of the word)
-the entire PRD region is reported to a focal point in the next 5 year plan
-Shekou to Central is a 45 minute bus ride, which costs y45

cons:
-it's not all that tapped into the mainstream
-traffic is arguably worse than Beijing
-you can't fly to there from anywhere in the US

Nice list. Not having travelled around much, have only been to BJ and HK. Although I loved HK as a tourist, I just much prefer the vibe here. And although materialism is rampant in BJ, it has a long way to go before reaching HK levels (and I hear SH is similar).

Having said that, I would love, love to be able to eat HK food at BJ prices every day.

tb

If I were to visit China for the first time as a tourist I'd concentrate on Beijing and Hong Kong. If I had to live in China full time (which I do) I'd live in Shanghai or Guangzhou. Good food is very important to me!

My personal top 5 list of mainland Chinese cities:

1. Suzhou - The climate is even worse than Shanghai but everything else makes up for it, especially the lakes. Subway finally open and WUX is fantastic as a local airport. Shanghai is within commuting distance, 30 minutes by highspeed train.

2. Weihai - Beautiful coastal city in NE Shandong. If it weren't for the local heavy drinking culture this city might have made the top of my list. Strong Korean influence.

3. Nanjing - Amazingly beautiful and with an almost unbearably rich and heavy history. Really like the character of local people and the mountains offer respite from the summer heat

4. Shenzhen - For mainland standards, this is a hippie community come to life. You can sense the joy of escaping the all embrasive traditional Chinese culture. Just pity on the orginal Cantonese inhabitants who have disappeared into obscurity.

5. Dalian - Clean, great seafood, prosperous with a heavy Japanese and Korean influence. One of the best places to conduct business

My favourite city in China for living would be Xiamen - I haven't lived there long term, but have visited several times. A very relaxed city, beautiful scenery, excellent weather, relatively little pollution, good food, and cultural amenities. Gulangyu is a beautiful little island and very enjoyable to visit for a day trip (although the crowds can be a bit much, but that's the same for anywhere in China). Xiamen University is, I think, the nicest and most scenic university campus in China.

Xiamen, Kunming, Hangzhou, Qingdao would be nice cities to live, though none of them has that much in depth and breadth for the tourist. And you would need to be more comfortable and self-sufficient as an expat out of the main lifelines of support. I like Chengdu also, but the pollution would not suit me....I'm looking to better my situation on that score vs Beijing!

Not only No but "Heeellll No" cities: Chongqing (hate everything about except food); Wuhan (like the people, don't like most everything else).

Warts and all, Beijing is a fascinating place to live...and as of 2010, I had lived here longer than any other place in my life. :-O

Kinda of a unique concept.

What hotel are you going to "live" at?

"Live" has a different concept in China than western countries.

Since I simply can't find the old thread (that I started), I am started a new one (mods; feel free to merge away):

Beijiing
pros:
-great people (far nicer than Shanghai... apart from exceptions to the rule, of course)
-the government is there; if you can even partially insert yourself into that crowd, you will gain valuable insights about policy changes that could affect your investments
-highest concentration of your portfolio companies
-the two best universities in China (Beida and Tsinghua) are in Beijing; there are over 100 listed companies in Haidian alone
-good art/music scene (it's been said that political oppression and harsh living conditions are catalysts for artists)
-cool tourist attractions (i.e. you will enjoy them yourself, and people will want to visit you... Shanghai simply doesn't compare)

cons:
-traffic
-pollution
-food is far inferior to Shanghai and HK
-the bureaucracy can be stifling at times
-it's not a very pretty city

Shanghai
pros:
-it's strong in finance, though I honestly can't say it's stronger than Beijing (more high profile, perhaps, but I know more smart bankers in BJ than I do in Shanghai... perhaps because they are physically closer to the companies they monitor)
-far better food than Beijing
-less traffic and pollution than Beijing; on a related note, Shanghai taxis are easy to get and the fare is almost always y14 because we rarely travel very far
-it really feels like a western city, and is extremely expat friendly

cons:
-a lot of obnoxious people, both locals and expats
*this situation was far worse circa 2008 when Tom Cruise and his cronies hit town, but it still persists to some degree
*they are obsessed with money and image
-the pace of life is super fast
*while this might suit your personality, I get burnt out at times (Beijing is far more relaxing; I attribute this in part to the government being slow moving and in part to the traffic... you will never have more than 6 meetings per day in BJ)
-in spite of the fact that its pollution is not near as bad as Beijing's (it is still bad, mind you), I can't of a single place on the planet that is situated in a less desirable climate than Shanghai
*sweltering heat during the summer
*winter feels really cold because: 1) the humidity; and 2) there is no central heating grid south of the Yangtze River, which means most apartments used forced air heating

Hong Kong
pros:
-well, it is just plain nice
-lots of well connected expats
-far better air quality than BJ and SH
-if you ever require institutional capital, it is better than anywhere in China

cons:
-it's not China
-surprisingly, the bulk of the afforementioned expats that I've met really don't care about China
-the cost of living is substantial
*on this note, my best friend had a pretty big housing allowance, and was free to live in a shack and pocket the difference
*but, he decided to spend the entire amount in order to live in style ---> this move fetched him 5 big clients (a person of your stature can not do the "Mid Levels" routine)

Shenzhen
pros:
-Shekou is very nice
*good food
*near the airport, which serves far more domestic destinations than HKG
-1/3 the price of HK on the housing front, and about 30% less for other stuff
-you will be able to meet rich Chinese people that have never contemplated the idea of investing in stuff other than real estate
-very green city (in the literal sense of the word)
-the entire PRD region is reported to a focal point in the next 5 year plan
-Shekou to Central is a 45 minute bus ride, which costs y45

cons:
-it's not all that tapped into the mainstream
-traffic is arguably worse than Beijing
-you can't fly to there from anywhere in the US

Response to bolded

"Nice" as in AWESOME

It "not being China" can be taken a number of ways. I think its a plus, its a global city, but the access to mainland and mainland businesses is significant and unique. A total plus.

Cost of living - RE aside, is not bad at all. RE can be managed if you live more than 15 mins commute from work (which many in HK don't like but is normal everywhere else in the world).

Plenty of expats don't care about China, but then again there are tons who do and China is their game. HK is their base for tax reasons, family etc (plenty of mainland and TW folks playing the same game, I see it daily).

Overall I think China is far more expensive than many think with increased RMB exchange rate (save for the recent 1% drop), especially when quality of goods and services are taken into account.

My personal top 5 list of mainland Chinese cities:

1. Suzhou - The climate is even worse than Shanghai but everything else makes up for it, especially the lakes. Subway finally open and WUX is fantastic as a local airport. Shanghai is within commuting distance, 30 minutes by highspeed train.

2. Weihai - Beautiful coastal city in NE Shandong. If it weren't for the local heavy drinking culture this city might have made the top of my list. Strong Korean influence.

3. Nanjing - Amazingly beautiful and with an almost unbearably rich and heavy history. Really like the character of local people and the mountains offer respite from the summer heat

4. Shenzhen - For mainland standards, this is a hippie community come to life. You can sense the joy of escaping the all embrasive traditional Chinese culture. Just pity on the orginal Cantonese inhabitants who have disappeared into obscurity.

5. Dalian - Clean, great seafood, prosperous with a heavy Japanese and Korean influence. One of the best places to conduct business

Love Dalian. Great city.

Response to bolded

"Nice" as in AWESOME

It "not being China" can be taken a number of ways. I think its a plus, its a global city, but the access to mainland and mainland businesses is significant and unique. A total plus.

Cost of living - RE aside, is not bad at all. RE can be managed if you live more than 15 mins commute from work (which many in HK don't like but is normal everywhere else in the world).

Plenty of expats don't care about China, but then again there are tons who do and China is their game. HK is their base for tax reasons, family etc (plenty of mainland and TW folks playing the same game, I see it daily).

Overall I think China is far more expensive than many think with increased RMB exchange rate (save for the recent 1% drop), especially when quality of goods and services are taken into account.


Nice to see Jamaldo back to China forum.

Kinda of a unique concept.

What hotel are you going to "live" at?

"Live" has a different concept in China than western countries.

Many hotels in Asia have serviced apartments attached which are intended for long/permanent stays.

Many hotels in Asia have serviced apartments attached which are intended for long/permanent stays.

That's correct. You are staying there, not living there.
The 4000 or so foreigners with green cards would essentially be living in China, most others its a temporary situation.

The Apollo astronauts didn't live on the moon.

That's correct. You are staying there, not living there.
The 4000 or so foreigners with green cards would essentially be living in China, most others its a temporary situation.

The Apollo astronauts didn't live on the moon.

Not sure 22 hrs on the moon's surface is a perfect analogy for many on this board who spend months, years and even > a decade living in China. But I guess you are right: we are all guests of the PRC...

Of course, LPR of any other country are in a similar (though not the same) boat: residency can be revoked (but usually needs an excuse, which PRC doesn't, that I'm aware of). So I would argue your definition of 'living' is too narrow to be useful.

tb

Not sure 22 hrs on the moon's surface is a perfect analogy for many on this board who spend months, years and even > a decade living in China. But I guess you are right: we are all guests of the PRC...

Of course, LPR of any other country are in a similar (though not the same) boat: residency can be revoked (but usually needs an excuse, which PRC doesn't, that I'm aware of). So I would argue your definition of 'living' is too narrow to be useful.

tb

Guests..you got that right.

On my recent whirlwind trip in China, I was impressed by Guilin.
I was only there for about 36 hours, so I realize that my impressions are based on an extremely limited experience, but I thought that the setting was gorgeous and that the town was kind of charming.
Any thoughts on Guilin from those more experienced?

On my recent whirlwind trip in China, I was impressed by Guilin.
I was only there for about 36 hours, so I realize that my impressions are based on an extremely limited experience, but I thought that the setting was gorgeous and that the town was kind of charming.
Any thoughts on Guilin from those more experienced?

Hate Guilin. Not a good vibe going on there. Nastiest people and biggest chiselers and cheats in China. They ruin what could be a nice physical setting. I propose moving the Wuhan people to Guilin, and the Guilin people to Chongqing. :p

If I were to visit China for the first time as a tourist I'd concentrate on Beijing and Hong Kong. If I had to live in China full time (which I do) I'd live in Shanghai or Guangzhou. Good food is very important to me!

I like food too, but it's recently occurred to me that I would probably really fat by this stage in my life (37) if I lived in a city that had good food on offer. Furthermore, Beijing life isn't especially stressful.

I want to move to Shenzhen because I like the swimming pools, but in the case of BJ v. SH, BJ is simply better.

but in the case of BJ v. SH, BJ is simply better.

100% incorrect in my book, but variety is the spice of life :cool:

I like food too, but it's recently occurred to me that I would probably really fat by this stage in my life (37) if I lived in a city that had good food on offer. Furthermore, Beijing life isn't especially stressful.

I want to move to Shenzhen because I like the swimming pools, but in the case of BJ v. SH, BJ is simply better.

My better half prefers BJ by far, I have somehow gotten so used to SH and surroundings that would find it very hard to move up north or down south.

But, in SH you have to choose where to live carefully.

Best, IMHO, would be the few suburban "water towns" still within Western city limits at the border to Kunshan. With connections, still possible to build your own dream house here if assisted by Chinese local friends.

Then, in my books, comes the area around Zhongshan North Rd/Gonghexin Rd. near Daning Shopping Mall. Very local Shanghainese blocks and you get all the international food and services you need at the aformentioned shopping mall. Also very close to Shanghai Main Station but not too much.

On the Pudong side, some blocks south of Dongchang Rd are quite attractive. Not as horribly high rise as the riverside blocks and with both typical Chinese and international offerings. Btw, for example some of the best Xinjiang style Chinese restaurants in SH in this area, really worth to explore.

Finally, Century Park and surroundings are another fine place to stay and work. This has, to my understanding, also been the pick of Chinese real estate pros until late. For frequent flyers especially, quite a convenient location as PVG is really not that far anymore.

Best food? IMHO, for Chinese, in the southern, wealthy parts of Puxi. Japanese and Korean, Honqgiao. As for Western food, I'd still vote for the Sofitel Hyland at Nanjing East Rd., a through and through Parisian friend and food snob has been very happy with their breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I've spent more time in Shanghai than Beijing, but I prefer Shanghai.

I agree on better food in Shanghai and better overall air quality. As for arrogant folks in Shanghai, I don't see it so much, but that may be because I'm not out in high end clubs and other expat type places. I tend to hang out large parks for morning exercise and local shops and restaurants and have always felt quite welcome.

My Asian friends who are permanent residents in either Shanghai or Beijing seem to be split (and not necessarily preferring the city they live in) and have very strong feelings over one or the other city.

100% incorrect in my book, but variety is the spice of life :cool:

You were correct the day before the crocus died. :D Do we need to make Mr. Pancake our new hangout?