Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Visit America. It's easier than you think!

Yeah, right :rolleyes:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/daily/daily.asp

Seems our friends at the State Department are getting antsy with all the billions the US is losing to other countries. Our visa system needs to be streamlined and I still say the US should add Brazil, China, and Russia to the VWP. They've got the money to spend.

Oh, and dump the TSA ;)

But not as easy as visiting [insert almost any other country here].

is this garbage being spewed by the Corporation for Travel Promotion (http://www.thebrandusa.com/) -- you know, the c:rolleyes:rporation funded by the $14 ESTA fee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_Authorization) we charge visitors to the US to be used for promoting tourism to the US?

But not as easy as visiting [insert almost any other country here].

Bolding mine.

As a US citizen, I generally have no problems. Only Russia was a pain cos I served in.......

China is easy as is all of SE Asia. Brazil? never any problem. I don't see the problem, as a US cit needing visas for other nations. But it is extremely difficult for anyone needing a visa to the US regardless of what the USG says. I have friends here (Chinese and other) who are wealthy, intelligent, and are willing to expand their business overseas, as well as spend money, but will not go to the US. Why? The way they've been treated at US embassies, consulates, and the disrepectul, and oft-ignorant, treatment at the hands of our illustrious CBP.

They simply spend their holidays in Europe or elsewhere and give their business to other grateful nations.

I doubt the US will ever get the hint.

But not as easy as visiting [insert almost any other country here].
To be fair visiting North Korea or Saudi Arabia is far harder

Speaking as someone who lived in San Diego from 2007-2010, I can definitively say that if you know where to cross, yes, it is very easy to visit the US.

To be fair visiting North Korea or Saudi Arabia is far harder

Hey I did say almost! :D

@T.J. Bender - thanks for the chuckle!

I like how the free Visa Waiver Program costs me $14.:rolleyes:

I'll be honest and say that I'm dreading the day I book a flight to any airport in USA. There are places I want to visit (NYC, SF, Chicago, LA) but... The massive 'but' includes TSA pat-downs to liquid restrictions to violence related to racism. I think Singapore passports do not require visas, or a different form, but.

I usually travel within Asia and to Europe. I have never had problems with my 9kg carry-on (and yes, I put it in the compartment myself because I know flight attendants are not obliged to help me), nor have I been harassed for carrying more liquids than I can put in the "mandatory" 1-litre ziplock bag (still must be less than 100ml each). Never harassed for not leaving said ziplock bag in one of the boxes, and the only time they needed to look at my bag again was when I carried on some instant noodles through Hong Kong to Tokyo.

I know the rules under TSA are to protect the general population, but I've always thought it has gone too far by treating said general population as criminals. My friend's brother missed his flight at JFK because there is a Mohamad in his name (common here), and it is apparently not an uncommon thing. I cannot accept that.

Considering the TSA's stance that they don't racially profile, it is sometimes amazing to take a look at who's been "randomly selected" for a pat-down. The line is disproportionately brown.

Ryvyan wrote:

I cannot accept that.

Amen, brother, amen

To be fair visiting North Korea or Saudi Arabia is far harder

It depends on the purpose of the visits, but overall I agree.

I have many Indian acquaintances who have found that getting a visa to Saudi Arabia was a walk in the park compared to what they went through to get another visa to the US. No such acquaintances have ever proclaimed to me that the US visa process was more dignified than the Saudi visa process.

The US visa process, ETA payment requirement for visa waiver program visitors, the CBP nonsense, and the TSA circus all together make the US a greater pain for visitors than would otherwise be the situation if all those elements were fixed rather than addressed by marketing shenanigans.

is this garbage being spewed by the Corporation for Travel Promotion (http://www.thebrandusa.com/) -- you know, the c:rolleyes:rporation funded by the $14 ESTA fee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_Authorization) we charge visitors to the US to be used for promoting tourism to the US?

Come on, a lot of countries charges some sort of tax either for entering or exiting the country. Most times, it's built into the price of the ticket as a tax.

I believe my last ticket included about a $35 tax to leave ICN. Brazil charges one. Argentina does. To name a few.

Let's at least be fair about charges getting into and out of country. Yes, they all suck, but it's not like the US is the only one doing it. Hell, US even charges citizens a departure tax. :rolleyes:

Come on, a lot of countries charges some sort of tax either for entering or exiting the country. Most times, it's built into the price of the ticket as a tax.

I believe my last ticket included about a $35 tax to leave ICN. Brazil charges one. Argentina does. To name a few.

Let's at least be fair about charges getting into and out of country. Yes, they all suck, but it's not like the US is the only one doing it. Hell, US even charges citizens a departure tax. :rolleyes:

The US is rather unique actually in charging a fee for an ETA of sorts even for those who are granted visa waivers. Argentina, Brazil and South Korea do not charge a fee for an ETA of sorts to those who are granted visa waivers.

Come on, a lot of countries charges some sort of tax either for entering or exiting the country. Most times, it's built into the price of the ticket as a tax.

I believe my last ticket included about a $35 tax to leave ICN. Brazil charges one. Argentina does. To name a few.

Let's at least be fair about charges getting into and out of country. Yes, they all suck, but it's not like the US is the only one doing it. Hell, US even charges citizens a departure tax. :rolleyes:Sure -- lots of countries charge a tax. The ESTA fee is quite different, however. It is charged only to visitors of visa-waiver countries, who don't need a visa to visit. The US offered the ESTA for free for a while. Then it decided to impose a fee on ESTA applicants for the purpose of advertising the US. I find it totally obnoxious to charge visitors solely for the privilege of advertising to them. That's not to mention the large percentage of the fee that collected simply for collection of the fee. Of the $14 charged, $4 is for administration. The other $10 goes to promoting the US as a tourist destination. It doesn't stop there, though. For every $10 raised by the fee $10 of my tax d:rolleyes:llars are given to the same tourism promotion company. :td:

Sure -- lots of countries charge a tax. The ESTA fee is quite different, however. It is charged only to visitors of visa-waiver countries, who don't need a visa to visit. The US offered the ESTA for free for a while. Then it decided to impose a fee on ESTA applicants for the purpose of advertising the US. I find it totally obnoxious to charge visitors solely for the privilege of advertising to them. That's not to mention the large percentage of the fee that collected simply for collection of the fee. Of the $14 charged, $4 is for administration. The other $10 goes to promoting the US as a tourist destination. It doesn't stop there, though. For every $10 raised by the fee $10 of my tax d:rolleyes:llars are given to the same tourism promotion company. :td:

That is my issue with ESTA too.

Applying for a US visa involves a lot of work. It is stressful and hits hard on one's dignity and self-respect, to the point where most ask "is this really that much important"?

1. Getting online and picking an appointment for visa applying/interview....sometimes months in advance and paying a fee.

2. Going to the US embassy as if you're at the airport, with security screening, WTMD, etc......taking orders from a power-tripping security guards

3. Being fingerprinted and photographed as if I am about to be charged.

4. Subject to delay in processing of visa if you're a Muslim or from one of the "evil" countries (known as security clearance). you have to wait for few months, I waited 5 months.

5. Facing eextra security and ridiculous check at the airports for the flight.

6. Again being fingerprinted/photographed and being asked ridiculous questions (even up to the weight of your parents!) by CBP officers. Being made to wait while officer goes for a donut/coffee break
I was once asked to fill up such a form at YYZ pre-clearance for boarding a flight to the USA. How/Why the F would I know the weight of my parents who live in Europe? The form asked for the heights and weights of my parents. Ridiculous.

7. Being treated as a criminal by US-CBP and being made to feel "unwelcome" despite following all the procedures.

I'm sorry, a lot of people with dignity refuse to go through that ordeal.
The new scanners are scaring away a lot more people.

Even though I now have a Canadian passport, I will not travel to a country where people are treated in such manners. Nor will any family members or friends. They would rather choose an EU/Middle East/SE Asian country and put up with their procedures than the US ones.

Even the travel agents in Canada ask "would you fly through the US or wanna avoid it even if you save afew $$" to the many ethnic communities. People fly direct out of YYZ even if they pay a little extra.

I know and understand that obtaining a visa to any western/developed country is hard and intimidating, but the US is still ahead of the "unwelcoming" list.

On a side note, doesn't Australia charge $20 for the ETA as well? Has that slowed down tourism?

Nice people at Perth immigrations and customs, even with the mandatory visa application and rules about bringing plants and food in. The plant/food/livestock rule was justifiable (reduce possibility of new species of plants/animals introduced and killing off their native plants/animals), and it was a rule that everyone knows so it was not a problem.

I was travelling with my students and one of them brought half a luggage filled with instant cup noodles (don't ask...) She was a 14 year old kid and they treated her accordingly, smiling and having a conversation with her about her food stock, even as they did their job of going through her luggage quickly and efficiently. Mainly just ensuring that the cup noodles are still sealed.

The US is rather unique actually in charging a fee for an ETA of sorts even for those who are granted visa waivers. Argentina, Brazil and South Korea do not charge a fee for an ETA of sorts to those who are granted visa waivers.

I have a $24.50 departure tax out of ICN on my last UA receipt. And I was there without a visa.

The only real difference is where it's collected. US collects it during the ESTA process, Korea built it into the ticket fee. Regardless of when it's collected, it's still a BS fee.

The only real difference is where it's collected. US collects it during the ESTA process, Korea built it into the ticket fee. Regardless of when it's collected, it's still a BS fee.The real difference for me is that the ESTA fee is collected for the express purp:mad:se of advertising to the group that is forced to pay the fee.

The real difference for me is that the ESTA fee is collected for the express purp:mad:se of advertising to the group that is forced to pay the fee.

As in Korea's tax, something off of ITA:

Rep. of Korea Intl. PSC, Dep. Tax and Contribution to Intl. Poverty Eradication (BP) $24.50

While it's a noble goal to eradicate poverty, I don't see their methods as much better promoting tourism. There are plenty of organizations I'd rather donate to towards that end rather than to however the ROK sees fit to disperse it.

I have a $24.50 departure tax out of ICN on my last UA receipt. And I was there without a visa.

The only real difference is where it's collected. US collects it during the ESTA process, Korea built it into the ticket fee. Regardless of when it's collected, it's still a BS fee.

So that's not an entry fee applicable regardless of form of transport taken to enter the country. Doesn't ESTA fee apply for those entering the US by car? That departure tax out of ICN is not a requirement for visa waiver nationals to get into South Korea.

There seems to be more than one real difference.

So that's not an entry fee applicable regardless of form of transport taken to enter the country. Doesn't ESTA fee apply for those entering the US by car? That departure tax out of ICN is not a requirement for visa waiver nationals to get into South Korea.

There seems to be more than one real difference.

I don't see much of a difference between whether it's collected going in or going out. I have to pay regardless when I visit the country. I can't tell the airline I don't want to pay it. I have a feeling that if the tax wasn't included in the ticket that it would be collected at ICN before my passport's stamped for leaving.

They get you coming or they get you going, or perhaps even both. It's semantics of when it's paid.

I have a Canadian friend living on the border that crosses into the US several times a week. She said she's never had to pay an ESTA fee or do that. She just comes across with her passport. So that might be a plane only fee.

Bolding mine.

As a US citizen, I generally have no problems. Only Russia was a pain cos I served in.......

China is easy as is all of SE Asia. Brazil? never any problem. I don't see the problem, as a US cit needing visas for other nations. But it is extremely difficult for anyone needing a visa to the US regardless of what the USG says. I have friends here (Chinese and other) who are wealthy, intelligent, and are willing to expand their business overseas, as well as spend money, but will not go to the US. Why? The way they've been treated at US embassies, consulates, and the disrepectul, and oft-ignorant, treatment at the hands of our illustrious CBP.

They simply spend their holidays in Europe or elsewhere and give their business to other grateful nations.

I doubt the US will ever get the hint.

Well said.
Yes US makes it super difficult to get a tourist visa from Brazil, India etc. These people have the money to spend and are eager to see the world. Yet we make sure we discourage them from coming here , instead encourage them to spend in the Middle East, Europe and Far East !

Never mind you have a return ticket and whervithal to spend here, you are not fir to come here unless you can walk across our borders like million a year do !

I have a Canadian friend living on the border that crosses into the US several times a week. She said she's never had to pay an ESTA fee or do that. She just comes across with her passport. So that might be a plane only fee.

Canada isn't part of the VWP, and Canadian citizens are also exempt from US-VISIT under most circumstances. One does not have to pay the ESTA fee if one enters the US via a land crossing under the VWP, one is subject to a $6 fee to issue the I-94W. The I-94W went away for air/sea ports of entry with the introduction of the ESTA , but it's still around for land crossings.

I don't see much of a difference between whether it's collected going in or going out. I have to pay regardless when I visit the country. I can't tell the airline I don't want to pay it. I have a feeling that if the tax wasn't included in the ticket that it would be collected at ICN before my passport's stamped for leaving.

They get you coming or they get you going, or perhaps even both. It's semantics of when it's paid.

I have a Canadian friend living on the border that crosses into the US several times a week. She said she's never had to pay an ESTA fee or do that. She just comes across with her passport. So that might be a plane only fee.
.

Canadians don't need ESTA to enter the US, regardless of mode of transport. Note that Canada is not on the US VWP country list, so ESTA is not relevant to Canadians no matter the mode of transport. ESTA or a substitute entry fee is relevant to VWP country citizens, even those crossing by land or water from Canada.

Canada isn't part of the VWP

And they certainly don't have to line up in the same (longer) line as VWP countries do, at least at JFK!

.

Canadians don't need ESTA to enter the US, .

And citizens of the Federated States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands, and Palau do not require any payment or any visa or ESTA (and they can work with just the passport also)- Just a passport.
They used to be the only three countries in the world with that priviledge, not sure if that is still true.

I remember in the Bahamas they could come over if they used pre-clear sites to enter the US, ditto Bermuda. There are probably more

They are running the TV commercial in Japan now all the time. Come, visit the U.S.A. Creepy to watch this when you think of how Immigration and Customs so often pick on Asians and non English speakers as well as the TSA horror on their way home. Think how badly and sometimes disrespectful we as U.S. Citizens are being treated. Add a further data point : arrived at ORD earlier this week from NRT. The U.S. Citizen line at Immigration was ten rows deep with overflow directed to another side of the building plus a line set up about 300 ft back into that long walkway coming in from the plane. The line went around a corner, who knows how much longer it was there. Four inspectors working, 10 empty stations, 45 minutes wait time, lots of barking and screaming. Visitors was even worse. Not a very good first impression IMHO.

They are running the TV commercial in Japan now all the time. Come, visit the U.S.A. Creepy to watch this when you think of how Immigration and Customs so often pick on Asians and non English speakers as well as the TSA horror on their way home. Think how badly and sometimes disrespectful we as U.S. Citizens are being treated. Add a further data point : arrived at ORD earlier this week from NRT. The U.S. Citizen line at Immigration was ten rows deep with overflow directed to another side of the building plus a line set up about 300 ft back into that long walkway coming in from the plane. The line went around a corner, who knows how much longer it was there. Four inspectors working, 10 empty stations, 45 minutes wait time, lots of barking and screaming. Visitors was even worse. Not a very good first impression IMHO.

SPOT ON 1

LAST WEEK ESCORTING A WHEEL CHAIR BOUND FAMILY MEMBER (iNDIA) at YYZ.
Wheel chair was special line, ICE officer asked and was given all proper documents (multiple US entries visa, passport with prior two trips over 10 years, return ticket to India...asked us to step aside fill out form I 94, got back in special line, he left for a break without saying anything....switched to other line, left for break, no words. Swithched to third position, ICE looked at passport, scanned, took all fingerprints , tore up the I 94 form right in front of us ! GO FIGURE :o

THE TRAVELER SAID IF HER DUAGHTER DID NOT RESIDE IN us , SHE WOULD NOT VISIT AND THAT THIS WAS HER LAST VISIT. Yes US can spend money on promoting tourism.....your tax dollars at work.

'America! We're just like Canada!' ;)

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/tourism-ad-rebrands-u-militaristic-multicultural-090838111.html

New tourism ad makes U.S. look like Canada

A softer, gentler America that looks a lot like Canada, with its depiction of diverse people and stunning landscapes, is the focus of a new travel campaign that is making the tourism industry here nervous, but experts say the real aim of the exercise may be to rebrand the "militaristic" United States.

...

"There's a little of bit of everyone in America and there's a little bit of America in everyone in the world. We hope by depicting this freedom and diversity we make the world seem closer and more open. We need that sense of optimism and the possibility to be a better world."

...

It doesn't show the Empire State building, Mount Rushmore, Disneyland or the awesome lifestyle of California — the iconic American images.

"Instead it shows women in hijab, a gay couple on a streetcar in San Francisco and people having a picnic, so the imagery they were going after is, this is the land of diversity and inclusion,"

'America! We're just like Canada!' ;)
"... and there's a little bit of America in everyone in the world (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/tourism-ad-rebrands-u-militaristic-multicultural-090838111.html).
Even as someone born and educated in the USA, I have to ask: where the barfie smilie when you need it???? :eek::rolleyes::mad::( That is just WRONG, and frankly, offensive.

Fortunately, they're not playing these USA tourism ads in Australia (or if they are, I haven't seen them). OTOH, one of the TV channels fills Wednesday and Thursday primetime with Operation Repo, Swamp People, Ax Men, American Pickers, Pawn Stars, etc so that probably serves the same purpose...

Oh, yeah, and they're bringing "Dallas" back. That's always a good ad for the US way of life, too. ;)

Even as someone born and educated in the USA, I have to ask: where the barfie smilie when you need it???? :eek::rolleyes::mad::( That is just WRONG, and frankly, offensive.

Fortunately, they're not playing these USA tourism ads in Australia (or if they are, I haven't seen them). OTOH, one of the TV channels fills Wednesday and Thursday primetime with Operation Repo, Swamp People, Ax Men, American Pickers, Pawn Stars, etc so that probably serves the same purpose...

Oh, yeah, and they're bringing "Dallas" back. That's always a good ad for the US way of life, too. ;)

Funny you say that...lately the luster of all things American is fading a bit...I see shows / serials on Indian TV that will put Dallas to shame !

It depends on the purpose of the visits, but overall I agree.

I have many Indian acquaintances who have found that getting a visa to Saudi Arabia was a walk in the park compared to what they went through to get another visa to the US. No such acquaintances have ever proclaimed to me that the US visa process was more dignified than the Saudi visa process.

The US visa process, ETA payment requirement for visa waiver program visitors, the CBP nonsense, and the TSA circus all together make the US a greater pain for visitors than would otherwise be the situation if all those elements were fixed rather than addressed by marketing shenanigans.

Well if you are unlucky not to be a citizen of one of the countries participating in the VWP the visa process is a PITA. I'd say obtaining a Schengen visa is easier. Interview at the embassy which appoints are hard to get, rigourisly questioning before boarding a plane to the United States (especially on a US based airline), rigourious questioning at the CBP etc etc.

Just to put in some balance, my experience getting a visa and travelling to the USA has been very good.

My original nationality is from Argentina, a country not in the VWP (except for some years during the '90s). I had two visas pre 9/11, obtained at Buenos Aires.
After moving to London in 2005, I needed to obtain a US visa for business reasons. I called the embassy and I was lucky enough to get a booking for early morning next day, since someone had cancelled.
Next morning, I went to the embassy, I had to be in a line and pass all the security procedures, but nobody yelled at me or treated me disrespectfully. After about half an hour they called my number, I went to a counter and spoke to a lady, she asked me some questions about the company I worked for, and that was it. I got my passport back with the visa next morning before 8am, so the total time obtaining the visa was less than 24hs!

I travelled to the USA 3 times on that visa, one entering through JFK, the other through preclareance at Shannon, and the last one through SFO. Every time it was quick and trouble free, they got my photo and digital prints, asked me a couple of questions, and done. The lady at Shannon was very friendly, even joking a little bit.

I recently became a British citizen, and travelled to Canada on a British passport, but been in transit at JFK twice (once through YYZ preclearance), and the experiences was similar, only this times I had to spend 30-40min in queues.
As a matter of fact, they asked me many more questions at Canadian immigration.

And all of these times, going through security was normal, still a bit of a hassle but no different than in other airports.

Maybe I was simply lucky, and honestly I was expecting worse after reading so many people complaining, but it wasn't specially bad or different than any other airport experience.