Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - What's With Checking IDs at Federal Court But Not Comparing to a List?

I'm not looking for the usual answers like "because they are idiots."

I've gone to the Bankruptcy Court a number of times over the years (as an attorney.) The US Marshals at the metal detectors always ask to see ID, but never check it against a blacklist.

The obvious TSA rationale for asking for ID is that they check it against a list to make sure you are not a threat (yes, I know the list sucks.)

But, what is the possible rationale for checking ID, but not checking it against a list?

But, what is the possible rationale for checking ID, but not checking it against a list?

It's complete theater, plain and simple. The primary purpose is to make people "feel safe" and that the government is "doing something" to protect the facility. There may be a secondary purpose to condition people to showing ID/papers on demand.

Checking a blacklist can actually serve a purpose. Requiring a specific ID, e.g., a military ID, to get into a facility serves a purpose of restricting access. But *any* ID check that both does not include a blacklist and will accept any arbitrary government (or non government) photo ID is theater.

Note that the government is to some extent attempting to make possession of a valid photo ID a "privilege" that they can take away. The only reason for an ID to expire is to give the government an option to not renew it at some point in the future. Makes sense for a driver's license (you could go blind), but not for general IDs that are effectively required to travel or engage in commerce.

In a more general sense - are people in the US required by law to have any sort of ID at all?

I'm not looking for the usual answers like "because they are idiots."

I've gone to the Bankruptcy Court a number of times over the years (as an attorney.) The US Marshals at the metal detectors always ask to see ID, but never check it against a blacklist.

The obvious TSA rationale for asking for ID is that they check it against a list to make sure you are not a threat (yes, I know the list sucks.)

But, what is the possible rationale for checking ID, but not checking it against a list?

Why don't you try to get in without it once and see what happens? Just say you forgot it at home or something.

I run into the same thing at some military bases. If they happen to be running 100% ID checks, then they ask me for an ID. Two weeks ago, I showed my passport card which would at least prove US citizenship. They didn't know what to make of it, so they asked for a drivers license (I wasn't the driver of the car). Some bases scan and capture the ID bar code which would at least keep a record of who came on base. That I understand. Most just look at the ID and hand it back to me. Proved nothing.

Ran into this at, of all things, my wife's naturalization ceremony.

Guards were requiring everyone to show ID to enter the courthouse, but were not checking it against anything. Family members of people being naturalized were being turned away until they went and got some form of ID to show.

Ultimately, I don't think anyone who wanted to attend the ceremony didn't get in, but I can just imagine the disgusting specter of someone being barred from being able to attend a citizenship swearing-in ceremony over something like this.

In a more general sense - are people in the US required by law to have any sort of ID at all?
No. And any requirement that people can only enter some location if they have ID is a prima facia violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because studies have shown that twice as many blacks don't have ID as whites, so the effect of such a rule disproportionately discriminates against blacks.

No. And any requirement that people can only enter some location if they have ID is a prima facia violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because studies have shown that twice as many blacks don't have ID as whites, so the effect of such a rule disproportionately discriminates against blacks.

This could lead to some interesting interpretation... along the lines of "to be able to use air transportation/entering a public building/etc one should be in posession of and produce a document (ID) that one is not required to have"

In many parts of the country, it's common for private building security to require ID as well. But, as with almost all Federal (and state facilities), the security / law enforcement don't check the name against anything in particular.

While I don't subscribe to it, there is a theory that people who have identified themselves are less likely to do bad things than people who have not.

At some Federal facilities it can be worse than TSA checkpoints at airports because there's no backup plan if you don't have ID with you. In other words, no ID = no entry. Period.

The obvious TSA rationale for asking for ID is that they check it against a list to make sure you are not a threat (yes, I know the list sucks.)Not so obvious.

The TSA does not check passengers' names against any list; that is done at check-in by the airline. All the TSA does is verify(:rolleyes:) that the ID and BP match; decide for yourselves how that charade "enhances" security.

In other words, no ID = no entry. Period.

I can see the future.

“To enter this courthouse you must have an ID. Persons without IDs can apply for one at the ID Office, located on the third floor inside this courthouse.” :rolleyes:

Wonder what happens if a person gets summoned as a potential juror and shows up at the courthouse without ID?

Wonder what happens if a person gets summoned as a potential juror and shows up at the courthouse without ID?

Considering that many (most?) juror rosters get compiled from public records like driver's license registrations, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy that jurors will have IDs and be expected to produce them.

But this is purely speculative on my part.

I think it is just to get people used to a 'papers please' society. Perhaps I am too jaded.

Reminds me of the pointless ID checks when entering NRT airport as well.

The TSA does not check passengers' names against any list; that is done at check-in by the airline. All the TSA does is verify(:rolleyes:) that the ID and BP match; decide for yourselves how that charade "enhances" security.

Well, the idea is to make sure that the name you gave the airline to compare against the list is actually your real name.

This is one thing that actually makes sense. If they didn't do it, anyone on the list could buy a ticket under a different name.

The accuracy of the list is a whole other issue.

I think it is just to get people used to a 'papers please' society. Perhaps I am too jaded.More of a control mechanism I think.

Every kid in kindergarten learns that if someone has something of yours, you're in their power. Until they return it. Police (and lately hordes of other uniformed types) use the same trick; hand them your ID (DL, passport etc.) and you are now under their control and, unless you're willing to abandon it, you're also immobile.

Been that way for decades, first thing a cop will demand is ID. People don't know that in most stop-and-identify* states you are only required to identify yourself verbally. Of course if you do decline to show physical ID then you are immediately deemed guilty of Contempt of Cop, thereby guaranteeing things are going to go downhill real fast.

* not applicable to traffic stops although the same immobility occurs when the cop walks away with your DL

Well, the idea is to make sure that the name you gave the airline to compare against the list is actually your real name.

This is one thing that actually makes sense. If they didn't do it, anyone on the list could buy a ticket under a different name.

The accuracy of the list is a whole other issue.

Try again.

http://nathanbarry.com/no-fly-list/

Try again.

http://nathanbarry.com/no-fly-list/

Yes, forging a boarding pass would get around this list. So what?

Yes, forging a boarding pass would get around this list. So what?

And defeat the entire alleged reason for the BP/ID check. That's what.

And defeat the entire alleged reason for the BP/ID check. That's what.

But who would forge the name on a boarding pass? Everyday traveling people wouldn't! Yet who are the majority of people inconvenienced and/or harassed by this practice?

And defeat the entire alleged reason for the BP/ID check. That's what.

Yes, there is always a way around every measure.

There are people who can make convincingly genuine fake passports for a couple hundred dollars. Does that mean that CBP should no longer check passports? After all, this defeats the entire alleged reason for checking them.

Didn't want to start a new thread, but why does the Pentagon now have a body scanner to scan people ENTERING the building, in response to a shooting, 2 years ago, that occurred outside the building?

http://wtop.com/120/2903898/New-body-scanner-will-greet-visitors-at-Pentagon

Yes, there is always a way around every measure.

There are people who can make convincingly genuine fake passports for a couple hundred dollars. Does that mean that CBP should no longer check passports? After all, this defeats the entire alleged reason for checking them.

Producing a fake boarding pass is far, far simpler than producing a fake passport. An ordinary office computer with basic image editing tools can do the job; the marginal cost of producing such a boarding pass is trivial.

Spending a great deal of time at the checkpoint, with one (or more!) dedicated individuals checking a security measure that can be trivially circumvented, seems to many observers (including this one) to be a waste of money. One could take that money and use it in better ways (e.g. assigning the TDC to other screening duties in order to improve accuracy and/or speed).

Producing a fake boarding pass is far, far simpler than producing a fake passport. An ordinary office computer with basic image editing tools can do the job; the marginal cost of producing such a boarding pass is trivial.

Spending a great deal of time at the checkpoint, with one (or more!) dedicated individuals checking a security measure that can be trivially circumvented, seems to many observers (including this one) to be a waste of money. One could take that money and use it in better ways (e.g. assigning the TDC to other screening duties in order to improve accuracy and/or speed).

^

Requiring ID at federal courthouses is not only pointless security theater, it's against the Constitution. The Sixth Amendment guarantees criminal defendants the right to a public trial. If someone is on trial for something politically incorrect or heretical, IMO many would-be spectators might fear official reprisals and might well be deterred from viewing the trial because of the ID requirement.

Robert John Foti challenged the courthouse ID requirement (1); and, in 2007, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals tossed the case without providing any significant explanation as to its reasoning. End of constitutional right.

It's also superfluous to require ID at courthouses and other federal buildings, because these places have cameras, and presently or Real Soon Now the cameras will be tied to some database and will be able to discern and log your identity.

To the credit of the U.S. Marshals Service, one time I forgot my Valid Government ID at a federal courthouse but was able to convince them of my identity by other methods. Thank you USMS for not always being mindless automatons.

(1) Foti v. McHugh (docket) (http://papersplease.org/lc_case.html?cid=4); (unpublished opinion) (http://papersplease.org/_dl/Foti/forti_v._mchuge_memo.pdf)
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Reminds me of the pointless ID checks when entering NRT airport as well.

This is one thing I ask about every time, and none of my Japanese colleagues can give me an answer.

Ditto on the military ID checks, too. I don't want to go into too much detail about suspected security lapses I've noticed there, but unless they're scanning the ID, they'd never notice if my ID was expired. Heck, they'd probably never notice me entering with a DL.