Amtrak Guest Rewards - AGR Zone Map

It's been months, so I don't have great hopes, but does anyone know if AGR is ever going to improve their zone map?

The present version (seen here (https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/common/content/info/zonemap/Zonemap-2012-412012.pdf) in all its glory) has only dots to represent border cities, not their names, which would seem to be more useful to me. After all, I might know that Wolf Point, Montana, is the border city between the Central Zone and the Western Zone on the Empire Builder route, but I doubt I could guess that from the map.

While it doesn't identify border cities, it does manage to include the Three Rivers route, complete with its border city of Fostoria, Ohio.

If you're really interested, you can find the border cities here (http://web.archive.org/web/20050322160127/http://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/redeem/details/zone_chart_popup.html), but it seems a shame to have to use the Wayback Machine to find something as basic as that.

I note that the Northeast zone is shown with cities listed. Does this indicate the focus of AGR's interest? I find it remarkable that AGR improved the national map by removing the names of cities, but leaving an obsolete route.

After all, I might know that Wolf Point, Montana, is the border city between the Central Zone and the Eastern Zone on the Empire Builder route, but I doubt I could guess that from the map.Indeed, clearly the map is confusing.

:p

Well, the map is clearly atrocious, but I wonder if the lack of clarity of border cities is deliberate.

I think border cities only matter to savvy folks who know how to use the system to their advantage, i.e. booking an award from Point A to border city and a smallish cash ticket from border city to Point B. Whereas I think most people just know they have to get from Point A to Point B and want to know what it will cost. The AGR agent on the phone is happy to tell them that without, of course, mentioning the presence of a nearby border city that could be used to reduce the amount of the redemption. And for most trips involving major cities as endpoints, the zone map is clear enough.

Well, the map is clearly atrocious, but I wonder if the lack of clarity of border cities is deliberate.

Maybe, but I try to never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Maybe, but I try to never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

You're probably right, because even under my theory there'd be no rational explanation for leaving on discontinued routes.

I don't know when this new map came into existence, but in addition to the Three Rivers Route it's also got the Sunset Limited route east of New Orleans still.

I don't know when this new map came into existence, but in addition to the Three Rivers Route it's also got the Sunset Limited route east of New Orleans still.

The map is essentially unchanged since it was first added (http://web.archive.org/web/20010405142714/http://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/Redemption/online_rewards.cfm?CFID=377761&CFTOKEN=76564544&CATEGORY=T). Besides some minor tweaks, as far as I can tell the Downeaster route was added and that was it.

Also, the old Silver Star routing through Western Florida north of Tampa is still on the map, though Amtrak no longer serves the route by train.

Also, the old Silver Star routing through Western Florida north of Tampa is still on the map, though Amtrak no longer serves the route by train.

Actually, that's the route of the former Silver Palm; now called the Palmetto and truncated in Savannah, Georgia.

The Silver Star always operated through Orlando on the more southern route.

Actually, that's the route of the former Silver Palm; now called the Palmetto and truncated in Savannah, Georgia.

The Silver Star always operated through Orlando on the more southern route.

You're right, my mistake. Though, for a time, the Star did split at Jacksonville to serve both routes through FL. Amtrak service in FL has been reconfigured several times since the '80s, most recently in 2004 when the Silver Palm was truncated to become the Palmetto.

I don't know when this new map came into existence, but in addition to the Three Rivers Route it's also got the Sunset Limited route east of New Orleans still.

Officially, the Sunset Limited route still exists east of New Orleans, and it's on the full map in the public timetable -- it's just been "suspended" since Katrina.

Can someone help me clarify, I see from Ispolkom's post that Wolf Point MT is the "Border City," but does that mean it's in the Western or Central zone? I am saving up and will soon be booking a ticket from Seattle to Grand Forks, ND. The plan, exactly as others have described, to book a sleeper car with points from Seattle to the Eastern edge of the "Western Zone" and then pay cash from that point on to GFK. Is Wolf Point in the Western Zone, or would I need to book one city back West from there? I don't think I can try a dummy booking to find out yet because I don't have the points yet. Thanks in advance.

Can someone help me clarify, I see from Ispolkom's post that Wolf Point MT is the "Border City," but does that mean it's in the Western or Central zone? I am saving up and will soon be booking a ticket from Seattle to Grand Forks, ND. The plan, exactly as others have described, to book a sleeper car with points from Seattle to the Eastern edge of the "Western Zone" and then pay cash from that point on to GFK. Is Wolf Point in the Western Zone, or would I need to book one city back West from there? I don't think I can try a dummy booking to find out yet because I don't have the points yet. Thanks in advance.

A border city is part of either bordering zone for purposes of the redemption.

A border city is part of either bordering zone for purposes of the redemption.

Thank you for the prompt response!

AGR Insider, now that we have your attention on this thread :)^

Can you address some of the concerns about the Zone Map on the AGR website that have been described here:

1. Lack of clarity about what stations are border cities (probably the chief concern)

2. The presence of route segments no longer served by Amtrak (Sunset East, Three Rivers, Silver Palm)

3. The absence of new service additions, including the Downeaster extension to Freeport and the new NER service to Norfolk, VA (I'll grant you both of these are brand spanking new, but may as well make those changes too!).

The zone map updates will take place soon -- we want to make the "redeem" page on our Web site more user-friendly in general, and this would be one of those improvements. It is definitely on our to-do list!



AGR Insider, now that we have your attention on this thread :)^

Can you address some of the concerns about the Zone Map on the AGR website that have been described here:

1. Lack of clarity about what stations are border cities (probably the chief concern)

2. The presence of route segments no longer served by Amtrak (Sunset East, Three Rivers, Silver Palm)

3. The absence of new service additions, including the Downeaster extension to Freeport and the new NER service to Norfolk, VA (I'll grant you both of these are brand spanking new, but may as well make those changes too!).

Maybe, but I try to never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

:(

Our hearts are in the right place!

The zone map updates will take place soon -- we want to make the "redeem" page on our Web site more user-friendly in general, and this would be one of those improvements. It is definitely on our to-do list!

Excellent! Thanks for the response. Looking forward to the re-designed "redeem" page. ^

I wonder what soon is in Amtrak speak?
Seems to me 4 weeks is longer than soon

I wonder what soon is in Amtrak speak?
Seems to me 4 weeks is longer than soon

The launch of a new tier and an entirely new eCoupon system have been keeping our very small team very busy. ;)

The launch of a new tier and an entirely new eCoupon system have been keeping our very small team very busy. ;)

and?

The launch of a new tier and an entirely new eCoupon system have been keeping our very small team very busy. ;)
Does it take a "team" to replace the zone map on the website with a prior version that labeled the cities? Sounds like it should be a ten minute job, including the coffee break.

Does it take a "team" to replace the zone map on the website with a prior version that labeled the cities? Sounds like it should be a ten minute job, including the coffee break.

Well Insider did say:

The zone map updates will take place soon -- we want to make the "redeem" page on our Web site more user-friendly in general, and this would be one of those improvements. It is definitely on our to-do list!

Sounds like it's part of a much larger job that wouldn't take 10 minutes.

Sounds like it's part of a much larger job that wouldn't take 10 minutes.

And given that this thread started last June, describing an issue that had festered for months before, it's clearly not on AGR's front burner.

Well Insider did say:



Sounds like it's part of a much larger job that wouldn't take 10 minutes.
But WHY???? The map problem, with zone boundaries identified by dots and not city names, is ridiculous. Do we really have to wait until some vague "larger job" is completed for this simple matter to be corrected?

Can anyone tell me which zone Lamy, Las Raton and Las Vegas, New Mexico are in? From this old route/zone map

http://web.archive.org/web/20051211011957im_/http://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/redeem/details/zone_chart.gif

it appears that the actual route from Albuquerque, NM to Trinidad, CO (including the intermediate stops) are all in both the western zone and the central zone. This is unlike most of the boundary points which tend to be a specific station.

As well, does anyone know if there are other areas/section/segments like this, that appear to fall into to both adjoining zones? I'm thinking in particular of the area between Detroit and Port Huron in northern Michigan.



In case you're wondering, I'm working on my own route maps - here's the western zone:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Gtj5-jygHfU/UUAc5EDKnDI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/34akn_sif2Q/s1600/amtrak+western+zone+50.PNG

Once I'm confident in their accuracy (as much as I can be) I'll make them available in full resolution.

Western/central zone boundary: El Paso; any stop along the Albuquerque-Trinidad route; any stop on the Raton-Denver Thruway bus; Denver; Wolf Point.

Central/eastern zone boundary: Atlanta; Cincinnati; Toledo; Detroit; Port Huron.

Each zone boundary crossing means one additional zone required for the redemption. Crossing back into a prior zone is not allowed on the same redemption (circle trip).

Looking forward to having the New and revised AGR Zone Maps Posted on the AGR Site soon???

Question for AGR Insider: Since a Layover (on the Members Nickel) is Officially Allowed in New Orleans due to no Connections, has there been any Discussion @ AGR about the 24 Hour Rule and Allowing members to Make Connections on a Single Award in the Cases where you can make Connections in Less than 24 Hours? (ie Seattle(Empire Builder/Coast Starlight), Emeryville( South Bound Coast Starlight/Zephyr),Chicago(Empire Builder/Southwest Chief/Zephyr from the Texas Eagle)), Los Angeles(Southwest Chief from the Starlight)??? Also, why does Amtrak still Force a Connection on the Silver Meteor in Washington instead of allowing one to Connect in WAS to the Silver Star when Arriving on the Cap Ltd. from the West???

Once I'm confident in their accuracy (as much as I can be) I'll make them available in full resolution.

Beautiful. Excellent resource for the community!

Crossing back into a prior zone is not allowed on the same redemption (circle trip).

A major and sad devaluation of the AGR program. I haven't redeemed for a sleeper award (or spent any money on my AGR card other than Amtrak tickets or transferred points into AGR from other programs) since that change.

Since a Layover (on the Members Nickel) is Officially Allowed in New Orleans due to no Connections, has there been any Discussion @ AGR about the 24 Hour Rule and Allowing members to Make Connections on a Single Award in the Cases where you can make Connections in Less than 24 Hours? (ie Seattle(Empire Builder/Coast Starlight), Emeryville( South Bound Coast Starlight/Zephyr),Chicago(Empire Builder/Southwest Chief/Zephyr from the Texas Eagle)), Los Angeles(Southwest Chief from the Starlight)???

Not sure I understand what this means.

Does it mean that AGR redemptions do NOT allow connections? I.e. would a single redemption cover SEA-LAX-ELPaso?

Beautiful. Excellent resource for the community.

I found an Amtrak Poster online, and just started hacking it up. So it's not so much my work, other than the scissors.

http://www.travel-between.com/images/Amtrak_System0211_101web.jpg

I found an Amtrak Poster online, and just started hacking it up. So it's not so much my work, other than the scissors.

http://www.travel-between.com/images/Amtrak_System0211_101web.jpg
KenHamer: One man, a pair of scissors a little time and a problem solved.
Amtrak guest rewards: More people, (deleted)

Thanks Ken maybe you can sell your output to Amtrak for 100,000 points

Not sure I understand what this means.

Does it mean that AGR redemptions do NOT allow connections? I.e. would a single redemption cover SEA-LAX-ELPaso?

No, the trip you mention would be easy to redeem (on days the Sunset Limited runs, of course). What it means that AGR redemptions tend to not allow overnight connections, at least in my experience. This means that DEN-SAC-PDX-WPT is an easily booked connection, but DEN-CHI-WPT isn't. The difference is (it is thought) that the connection in Chicago is overnight, while that in Sacramento is during the day.

On the other hand, I know of people who claim to regularly book AGR trips with overnight stayovers, so maybe I'm just not charming enough.

I'm sorry to be so nebulous, but since the rules on overnight connections and more circuitous routings are unclear, unpublished, interpreted differently by different agents, and subject to unannounced change at anytime, it's hard to be more precise. I find this lack of precision amusing. Others find it maddening.

I'm sorry to be so nebulous, but since the rules on overnight connections and more circuitous routings are unclear, unpublished, interpreted differently by different agents, and subject to unannounced change at anytime, it's hard to be more precise. I find this lack of precision amusing. Others find it maddening.

That sounds like the standard airline routine of "if you don't like the answer hang up, call back and hope for a different agent."

Here's the central zone, at 50% resolution:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-x2LZr4vz9Xw/UUFH-K0PKlI/AAAAAAAAAag/b8mfEdRVeGg/s1600/amtrak+central+zone+50.PNG

BTW, if anyone spots any flaws in my "chopping" I'd be grateful to hear about it.

No, the trip you mention would be easy to redeem (on days the Sunset Limited runs, of course). What it means that AGR redemptions tend to not allow overnight connections, at least in my experience. This means that DEN-SAC-PDX-WPT is an easily booked connection, but DEN-CHI-WPT isn't. The difference is (it is thought) that the connection in Chicago is overnight, while that in Sacramento is during the day. .

The general rule is, if it's bookable in ARROW, it's good to go on AGR, no strings attached. Any more complicated and you will get resistance from the agent, all the way to an outright no. When you just type Denver and Wolf Point on amtrak.com, it routes you via Sacramento and Portland. That's just how it goes.

I found an Amtrak Poster online, and just started hacking it up. So it's not so much my work, other than the scissors.

http://www.travel-between.com/images/Amtrak_System0211_101web.jpg

That's a very useful map. It's been added to my bookmarks.

Western/central zone boundary: El Paso; any stop along the Albuquerque-Trinidad route; any stop on the Raton-Denver Thruway bus; Denver; Wolf Point.

Central/eastern zone boundary: Atlanta; Cincinnati; Toledo; Detroit; Port Huron.

Each zone boundary crossing means one additional zone required for the redemption. Crossing back into a prior zone is not allowed on the same redemption (circle trip).

If Port Huron is a zone boundary, how do you get there from the Eastern Zone? Given this map segment:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5PNYzbhnQR4/UUJrLnytqRI/AAAAAAAAAaw/mdXN0H7Uk7w/s1600/port+huron.PNG

it appears that coming from the east the only way you can get to Port Huron is to travel beyond Detroit and/or Toledo into the Central Zone, then back track to Port Huron.

I suppose the map could be out of date, but it seems to be from 2011 -- not too long ago.

I believe the "computer determines validity" rule applies here. If you search NYP-PTH, the CHI connection comes up. The no-backtracking rule was a response to members piecing together their own routings that ARROW did not spit out as logical possibilities. I doubt there's an extra logic on top to prevent AGR bookings where backtracking is required.

If Port Huron is a zone boundary, how do you get there from the Eastern Zone? Given this map segment:


You take the International, an Amtrak/VIA Rail train that went Chicago-Toronto through Port Huron. Sure, that train hasn't run since 2004, but the AGR zone map also still gives Fostoria, Ohio, and Pensacola, Florida as border cities, and there haven't been Amtrak trains through those cities for almost as long. At least you can still get to Port Huron on Amtrak.

And finally, the Eastern Zone:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ub01oZDLjQU/UUPr1mFdcoI/AAAAAAAAAbQ/8AG-ENpeogM/s1600/amtrak+eastern+zone+67.PNG

Note that based on my interpretation of the zones, Port Huron, MI is not really a zone boundary (in the same sense that other boundary cities are) but rather simply the northeastern extent of the Central Zone. Therefore it has not been included in the Eastern Zone.

I'll correct it as required.

[ Toronto obliterated ]

And finally, I'm still looking for any comments of corrections that may be required.

Great work.

The Downeaster service expansion means stations north of Portland: Freeport and Brunswick, Maine.

http://www.amtrakdowneaster.com/

The Downeaster service expansion means stations north of Portland: Freeport and Brunswick, Maine.

KenHamer is simply taking the existing Full Amtrak Route Map (http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/948/674/System0211_101web,0.pdf) and cutting it into different sections. So it's actually Amtrak that needs to update the map, not Ken. :)

KenHamer is simply taking the existing Full Amtrak Route Map (http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/948/674/System0211_101web,0.pdf) and cutting it into different sections. So it's actually Amtrak that needs to update the map, not Ken. :)

Actually, the map in the current national system timetable IS up-to-date, showing both the extension to Brunswick and the new route to Norfolk, VA.

Neither of these would have any bearing on AGR Zone Boundaries, which is what Ken's project is about. But if you want the latest Amtrak system map, just check out page 4 of the system timetable on the Amtrak website:

http://www.amtrak.com/train-schedules-timetables

And finally, the Eastern Zone:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ojSM6HB_cgI/UUJzgwQM8WI/AAAAAAAAAbA/Q_IcYuBFM_E/s1600/amtrak+eastern+zone+67.PNG

Note that based on my interpretation of the zones, Port Huron, MI is not really a zone boundary (in the same sense that other boundary cities are) but rather simply the northeastern extent of the Central Zone. Therefore it has not been included in the Eastern Zone.

I'll correct it as required.

I'd cut out the section between Niagara Falls and Toronto, because in my experience AGR won't book that segment.

I'd cut out the section between Niagara Falls and Toronto, because in my experience AGR won't book that segment.Why though? It's still necessary to show which zone they're in...

Why though? It's still necessary to show which zone they're in...

If you can't book AGR travel to or from Toronto, it's not in the eastern zone. It's in no zone at all, like Calgary or Mexico City or Moscow.

If you can't book AGR travel to or from Toronto, it's not in the eastern zone. It's in no zone at all, like Calgary or Mexico City or Moscow.
Thanks for clarifying. I read your post as saying that AGR wouldn't let you book a ticket from Niagara Falls to Toronto, which did seem like an odd city pair to exclude.

If you can't book AGR travel to or from Toronto, it's not in the eastern zone. It's in no zone at all, like Calgary or Mexico City or Moscow.

Thanks for clarifying. I read your post as saying that AGR wouldn't let you book a ticket from Niagara Falls to Toronto, which did seem like an odd city pair to exclude.

Yes, since the train technically becomes a VIA Rail train upon arrival at Niagara Falls, ON., even though it's still Amtrak's equipment that is operated by a VIA Rail crew, one cannot book an AGR reservation beyond that point as VIA Rail doesn't take AGR points. They only take VIA Preference points north of Niagara Falls.

Yes, since the train technically becomes a VIA Rail train upon arrival at Niagara Falls, ON., even though it's still Amtrak's equipment that is operated by a VIA Rail crew, one cannot book an AGR reservation beyond that point as VIA Rail doesn't take AGR points. They only take VIA Preference points north of Niagara Falls.

Huh, I knew it was operated by VIA, but I didn't know that the entire fare basis and revenue structure changes.

Interestingly, if you book NYP-TWO, it actually shows up in the Amtrak system as two connecting trains. And interestingly, while (on a random date in August) it's $66 to Niagara Falls, NY, it's $88 to go 7 minutes further to Niagara Falls, ON and a whopping $117 to go to TWO. The fact that VIA is taking a big chunk of the ticket revenue explains the massive difference, I guess...

Huh, I knew it was operated by VIA, but I didn't know that the entire fare basis and revenue structure changes.

Interestingly, if you book NYP-TWO, it actually shows up in the Amtrak system as two connecting trains. And interestingly, while (on a random date in August) it's $66 to Niagara Falls, NY, it's $88 to go 7 minutes further to Niagara Falls, ON and a whopping $117 to go to TWO. The fact that VIA is taking a big chunk of the ticket revenue explains the massive difference, I guess...

If you book any trip that involves both RR's, you'll actually get two tickets; one for the VIA Rail crew and one for the Amtrak crew.

It's also the only time that you can ever use an Amtrak ticket on a VIA Rail train and conversely, the only time you can use a VIA Rail ticket on an Amtrak train. If you buy from Amtrak, you get two Amtrak tickets. If you buy from VIA Rail, you get two VIA tickets and the Amtrak crew will accept the correct VIA ticket as passage for your travels within the US on the Maple Leaf.

Also of note, only Amtrak can sell BC tickets. VIA only sells coach tix without regard to whether you travel only in Canada or both Canada & the US. So if you want to use the BC car north of the border, you must book the trip using Amtrak.

The dual tickets also means no eTickets if you are crossing the border. You'll get paper value tickets, again without regard to whether you book via Amtrak or VIA Rail.

If you can't book AGR travel to or from Toronto, it's not in the eastern zone. It's in no zone at all, like Calgary or Mexico City or Moscow.

Anytime you can cut Toronto out of something, it's a good thing.

Actually, the map in the current national system timetable IS up-to-date, showing both the extension to Brunswick and the new route to Norfolk, VA.

Good to know - the one I linked to is found on THIS (http://www.amtrak.com/train-routes) page (just click on the actual "Routes" tab at the top of Amtrak.com, don't click on any of the options underneath that tab).

OK, so I have a new, improved AGR zone map in the form of a pdf file. But I have no idea how to make it publicly available. Any advice gratefully received.

Many thanks to jackal for offering to host the AGR Zone Map, which can be found at:

Amtrak system map with AGR redemptions zones (http://cb3f593c014f3f419d9b-bf92ec02faac627354074cb0a551e24a.r74.cf1.rackcdn.c om/amtrakzonemap.pdf)

This is just the current Amtrak system map downloaded from their website, with the zone boundaries marked with a blue crayon. This appears to be the most current system map, even though it's dated 2011.

The rule is that you can travel to, or along, the blue lines without crossing from one zone to another. But if you cross over the blue lines (that is, travel beyond the blue line) you will have included/incurred an additional zone.

A copy now safely resides on my computer.

Can you estimate the amount of time this took. I am curious

The launch of a new tier and an entirely new eCoupon system have been keeping our very small team very busy. ;)

Dear AGR Insider any information as to when your update will be done?

Dear AGR Insider any information as to when your update will be done?

Dear darben, the enhanced zone map is being perfected by our graphic designers as part of a larger effort to make the Redeem page on our Web site easier to use and understand. We will release the entire enhancement at one time as part of our regular Web site production schedule.

I realize that you have a sense of urgency and would like to offer my genuine assistance in any way possible. Are you planning a specific trip across multiple zones that I can help with, or can I provide an answer to a specific question(s) you have about the zone system?

Thank you for your loyalty!

Dear darben, the enhanced zone map is being perfected by our graphic designers as part of a larger effort to make the Redeem page on our Web site easier to use and understand. We will release the entire enhancement at one time as part of our regular Web site production schedule.

I realize that you have a sense of urgency and would like to offer my genuine assistance in any way possible. Are you planning a specific trip across multiple zones that I can help with, or can I provide an answer to a specific question(s) you have about the zone system?

Thank you for your loyalty!

I have no sense of urgency I am trying to get a problem solved.
Your previous communications stated the update would come Shortly.

On January 10, 213 you said
"The zone map updates will take place soon -- we want to make the "redeem" page on our Web site more user-friendly in general, and this would be one of those improvements. It is definitely on our to-do list!"

Then on February 8, 2013 you said
"The launch of a new tier and an entirely new eCoupon system have been keeping our very small team very busy"

I am just pointing out that your answers have not been forthright IMO.

As someone else said.Just go back to the previous version which listed the cities.
It can still be found on the web but not on AMtrak as seen here.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051211011957im_/http://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/redeem/details/zone_chart.gif

Just put this one back up. Problem is solved then you can wait for whatever it is that will delay you.