EL AL Matmid - Is EL AL Losing Its Way?

An Airline Losing Its Way | JewishPress (http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/analysis/an-airline-losing-its-way/2012/06/03/)

Article last week in the JewishPress, asking if LY has lost its way, and not for the reasons you might think.

Israel as a nation unlike any other needs a national airline.
<snip>
Unfortunately, the past decade saw the privatization of El Al and today the airline is more dedicated to keeping public shareholders happy than she is to fulfilling any sort of national mission. A perfect case in point happened recently when a profit-motivated El Al attempted to charge the President of the State of Israel an exorbitant $4,700 to haul a security mandated oxygen tank. Mr. Peres’ Office called their bluff and chose to fly Air Canada instead. That El Al would charge the President of Israel anything at all, even for a standard ticket, sends a message louder than any jumbo-jet engine. It should be viewed as an honor for a national airline to service the State’s highest ranking ceremonial leader, not a business opportunity.

I agree, the fact they even considered charging him, let alone the fact that they tried to is absured!


in anycase I'm sure he thoroughly enjoyed his flights on Air Canada, their product far exceeds EL AL's on any stage length.

I agree, the fact they even considered charging him, let alone the fact that they tried to is absured!


in anycase I'm sure he thoroughly enjoyed his flights on Air Canada, their product far exceeds EL AL's on any stage length.

No, it is not absurd that they charged Peres for this.
LY is a now a non-profit company, but they did not intend it to be :D
LY is a FOR PROFIT COMPANY, this means they ought to provide the best product and services at the best price!

But this is exactly the problem. LY's mistake is not that they charged Peres, but OVERCHARGED by so much, while a foreign carries was able to provide this service at a decent price, way below LY quoted price. Perhaps we should send out a tender, and let Peres fly with the carrier offering the best and lowest bid.

Unfortunately, the slogan of EL AL is so true: It is not just an airline, IT'S ISRAEL!!!!!!!!! :td::td::td::td::td::td::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Unfortunately, the slogan of EL AL is so true: It is not just an airline, IT'S ISRAEL!!!!!!!!! :td::td::td::td::td::td::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Hah! Funny you mention this, it's what I told my wife when I hung up on El Al customer service and called BA for the first time. So true.

I'm none too fond of either of the carriers mentioned above but for me when I fly LY there's always that feeling of adventure and something I like to call "LY Roulette"
Will it be delayed, diverted or canceled. Haha.

I'm none too fond of either of the carriers mentioned above

Which carriers are you none too fond of?

but for me when I fly LY there's always that feeling of adventure and something I like to call "LY Roulette"
Will it be delayed, diverted or canceled. Haha.

:D

Is EL AL Losing Its Way?

Did it ever know where it was heading in the first place?

Which carriers are you none too fond of?



:D

He is is not enamoured with El Al (naturally: that's the carrier under discussion), Air Canada, or British Airways.

It's all there in black an white for anyone to read.

He is is not enamoured with El Al (naturally: that's the carrier under discussion), Air Canada, or British Airways.

It's all there in black an white for anyone to read.
He said "either" which means 2 carriers. BA and AC were carriers mentioned, but LY was the one of discussion, which seems to imply he must've been talking about BA and AC. Yet I seem to recall him talking fondly about AC

He said "either" which means 2 carriers. BA and AC were carriers mentioned, but LY was the one of discussion, which seems to imply he must've been talking about BA and AC. Yet I seem to recall him talking fondly about AC

If you already knew the answer (see your quote) why did you ask?

If you already knew the answer (see your quote) why did you ask?
Because I recall him saying he was a big fan of AC, meaning he only could've been talking about BA. Yet he said "either."

in anycase I'm sure he thoroughly enjoyed his flights on Air Canada, their product far exceeds EL AL's on any stage length.

I would disagree with you there, on the <1000 mile flights, LY C >> AC C. LY food and service are better, which is all that really matters.

If we want to put it in perspective, of the airlines that fly into TLV, I'd say AC, CO, DL, LH, BA and LX offer a better product to TLV. Now, that's a minority of airlines flying to TLV; so LY isn't all that bad I suppose. Unfortunately for LY, the high yield business traffic is going to the USA, western europe and the far east. The only place LY can compete is "nonstops" to asia (which are a bit longer than the direct routing). But even then, LY is competing time/routing-wise with RJ and TK.

Canceling the 787 was one of the dumbest moves ever, not only are they much more fuel efficient, but LY could've milked boeing for millions due to the delays.

Now, if LY were to shape up, put lie flat C and a respectable F hard product, I'm sure they could get more of the north american traffic (that and a website that would let people easily book tickets, including intra-Americas on B6/AA).

Now, if LY were to shape up, put lie flat C and a respectable F hard product, I'm sure they could get more of the north american traffic (that and a website that would let people easily book tickets, including intra-Americas on B6/AA).

Don't forget customer service that actually serves customers.

I would disagree with you there, on the <1000 mile flights, LY C >> AC C. LY food and service are better, which is all that really matters.

If we want to put it in perspective, of the airlines that fly into TLV, I'd say AC, CO, DL, LH, BA and LX offer a better product to TLV. Now, that's a minority of airlines flying to TLV; so LY isn't all that bad I suppose. Unfortunately for LY, the high yield business traffic is going to the USA, western europe and the far east. The only place LY can compete is "nonstops" to asia (which are a bit longer than the direct routing). But even then, LY is competing time/routing-wise with RJ and TK.

Canceling the 787 was one of the dumbest moves ever, not only are they much more fuel efficient, but LY could've milked boeing for millions due to the delays.

Now, if LY were to shape up, put lie flat C and a respectable F hard product, I'm sure they could get more of the north american traffic (that and a website that would let people easily book tickets, including intra-Americas on B6/AA).
Yes - LY has a better narrowbody soft product than most airlines (though the new SN and IB can compete). But on wideobody, there's just no comparison to UA's BF, or BA or LX. The only "premium carrier" LY can compete with is LH C. And the food, at least the KSML, is better on LY. I also prefer the service on LY to LH.

LY food and service are better, which is all that really matters.Without going into the argument (again) about LY's food quality, are you telling me you care more about that than the hard product?

Yes - LY has a better narrowbody soft product than most airlines (though the new SN and IB can compete).

Since when do SN have proper business class seats?
Have flown them plenty recently and business was always only with the middle seat blocked.

Since when do SN have proper business class seats?
Have flown them plenty recently and business was always only with the middle seat blocked.
Can't seem to find the link now, but they had announced recentlyish that they are introducing a new short-haul C product

Can't seem to find the link now, but they had announced recentlyish that they are introducing a new short-haul C product

Don't remember that exactly.
SN only uses its wide-body jets to JFK and Africa, and this is where the new C product will be used.

Without going into the argument (again) about LY's food quality, are you telling me you care more about that than the hard product?

I was referring to the shorthaul product, not the longhaul (LY doesn't stand a chance in hell with their current offering there).

Don't remember that exactly.
SN only uses its wide-body jets to JFK and Africa, and this is where the new C product will be used.
I remember reading, separately, that they're introducing new short-haul C as well.

I remember reading, separately, that they're introducing new short-haul C as well.

I think you are or mistaking long haul and short haul, op perhaps the fact they re-introduced business class at all on their short haul service's.

I was referring to the shorthaul product, not the longhaul (LY doesn't stand a chance in hell with their current offering there).
Oh ok, understood!

I would disagree with you there, on the <1000 mile flights, LY C >> AC C. LY food and service are better, which is all that really matters.

If we want to put it in perspective, of the airlines that fly into TLV, I'd say AC, CO, DL, LH, BA and LX offer a better product to TLV. Now, that's a minority of airlines flying to TLV; so LY isn't all that bad I suppose. Unfortunately for LY, the high yield business traffic is going to the USA, western europe and the far east. The only place LY can compete is "nonstops" to asia (which are a bit longer than the direct routing). But even then, LY is competing time/routing-wise with RJ and TK.
US to PHL is the nicest C of 'em all, and don't forget that random KE flight.

I flew to yyz-tlv twice last summer once in May with LY for Birthright and once with AC in August with my family. The two carriers do not even compare. Both flight with LY were in economy but the food was better with LY than AC (AC Economy meal options on the way back were sweet and sour salmon balls or lamb stew both unappealing to me). On AC I was in J on my way to Israel and Y on my way home. I found both LY flights had better times to YYZ for long haul having both the flights I was on being overnight flights so I was able to sleep on both LY flight while the flight from TLV to YYZ on AC was a day flight. AC Planes are way nicer than LY's both airlines use the 767-300ER on that route but LY's planes seem to be stuck in the 70s where AC has AVOD and Lie flats seats in J. I do believe LY needs to refurbish their fleet of long haul aircrafts in order to compete with products offered by AC, UA and DL in North America.

I flew to yyz-tlv twice last summer once in May with LY for Birthright and once with AC in August with my family. The two carriers do not even compare. Both flight with LY were in economy but the food was better with LY than AC (AC Economy meal options on the way back were sweet and sour salmon balls or lamb stew both unappealing to me). On AC I was in J on my way to Israel and Y on my way home. I found both LY flights had better times to YYZ for long haul having both the flights I was on being overnight flights so I was able to sleep on both LY flight while the flight from TLV to YYZ on AC was a day flight. AC Planes are way nicer than LY's both airlines use the 767-300ER on that route but LY's planes seem to be stuck in the 70s where AC has AVOD and Lie flats seats in J. I do believe LY needs to refurbish their fleet of long haul aircrafts in order to compete with products offered by AC, UA and DL in North America.

To summarise it: LY on the whole is better, onky the aircrafts have to be updated, with the current rumors of LY renewing their fleet, are their chances for LY to become a top class airline?! (I somehow doubt it).

To summarise it: LY on the whole is better
I wouldn't read it that way at all.

I wouldn't read it that way at all.

I flew to yyz-tlv twice last summer once in May with LY for Birthright and once with AC in August with my family. The two carriers do not even compare. Both flight with LY were in economy but the food was better with LY than AC (AC Economy meal options on the way back were sweet and sour salmon balls or lamb stew both unappealing to me). On AC I was in J on my way to Israel and Y on my way home. I found both LY flights had better times to YYZ for long haul having both the flights I was on being overnight flights so I was able to sleep on both LY flight while the flight from TLV to YYZ on AC was a day flight.

How then do you read it?

I Never said LY is renewing their fleet but their planes on YYZ do show their age with no AVOD and No Lieflat J Seats all I said based on my experience and opportunity of Flying both Airlines on that route 2 months apart from each other is that I think LY needs to step up to refurbish their fleet in order to compete better with business class passengers. The meals on EL AL I found superior to AC but besides that their product is really lagging. I never said LY was better I was trying to compare the two but it is defiantly an easier flight overnight if you get what I mean. But AC was pretty good too not including the fact that on my leg to israel in J my bag showed up in Israel 3 day after i did even with the priority baggage tags. But AC does have a refurbish fleet on that route so thats defiantly a plus for Air Canada. But service wise and morale wise LY has an upper hand right now considering the mess with AC Employees and u were able to see that beginning at the end of August.

I Never said LY is renewing their fleet
I never said you said so.
All I said that if ELAL upgrades their fleet (which there is currently talk of them doing so), they would be great.

I never said LY was better
service wise and morale wise LY has an upper hand right now

How do these two sentences make sense?
The only solution I have is that you meant that on the whole LY is better, but the fact that their fleet is outdated puts them behind, which means (as I said) that once the fleet is renewed they will be better (if things stay as they are).

Don't get me wrong I'm no big fan of ELAL and I barely fly with them (although I don't hate as much as clubman does;)), I'm just trying to understand your post.

I never said again LY is better and as of right now LY only has the 737-900ER and 2 787-8 which is not even enough wide bodies to replace the 2 767-200 and the 6 767-300ER and not to mention their are no aircrafts ordered yet to replace their aging 747-400 aircrafts as of right now. AC employees morale will go up again this summer once the arbitrator imposes new contracts then LY will not be as good as AC because their products r lagging.

I flew to yyz-tlv twice last summer once in May with LY for Birthright and once with AC in August with my family.

Isn't that sort of cheating the birthright program?

Isn't that sort of cheating the birthright program?
Not at all. First off, OP went after Birthright. Second, you're ineligible for Birthright if you've been on an organized trip to Israel. Going with family isn't an issue.

Not really considering when I signed up for birthright my parents didn't book Israel till after I was accepted on Birthright and I had no clue they were even considering planning a family trip there. Also the first trip was birthright in may then August was with my family and before I went on birthright I never went to Israel so how was it cheating the system.

Not really considering when I signed up for birthright my parents didn't book Israel till after I was accepted on Birthright and I had no clue they were even considering planning a family trip there. Also the first trip was birthright in may then August was with my family and before I went on birthright I never went to Israel so how was it cheating the system.

You're good, I thought it was people who had been on any trip to Israel. All I really know about the birthright program is they tend to get very drunk on El Al flights :)

You're good, I thought it was people who had been on any trip to Israel. All I really know about the birthright program is they tend to get very drunk on El Al flights :)
As well as many other times during their visits to Israel :)