Air New Zealand Air Points - Air NZ Frequent Flyer Benefit's dropping - what next

There seems to have been a steady decline in what I get out of my Gold Elite status on Air NZ in the last couple years. The changes are done for a number of reasons - "Everyone now gets Airpoints dollars", "People wanted Flexibility", etc, all with a spin to say we asked for it or said we wanted it. Well, I wasn't asked, and all I really see is the decreased benefits to me, and I would expect other short trip TT business travellers from Wellinton,


1) Complimentary Upgrades - I'm only routinely travelling between Wellington and Melbourne so I can't use these since the Business class was cut. Although with the cut's too Thursday night returns too, I have been looking at more trips via Auckland where Business can sometimes be picked up- when travelling at odd times. It's a long trip home to be able to use these though removing the benefit of a short luxurious flight.

2) Parking - Wellington no longer has Koru parking, so the free parking tickets I get can no longer be used.

3) Priority Checkin - Wellington is now pushing the kiosks, and whilst I use these when I can, on the odd occastion that I want/need customer service when checking in, there is only a single queue for everyone. There is a counter that shows it's premium checkin - but there isn't a dedicated queue for it.

4) Seating Choice - Often I don't want a meal or movie on a morning flight, so would look at a Seat Only fare. But now (well for quite a while now), I can't choose my seat with that fare till I arrive to check in, and the choices are scarce. Often I end up without any seating advantage on the standard pitch, or rarely get the option of a middle seat that I don't really like.

5) Airpoints Dollars - "Every flight now gets these" - so It should be better right? Well, no. I don't book too far ahead, so typically get flights where I would get these anyway. However now, instead of 30 or 50 airpoints dollars (very few 0's), I get 15 and 20 - and the odd 5 when I get the cheap fare. That requires 6 cheap flights per Full Economy flight to get back what I have now lost from a Full Economy Fare.



What FF benefit will be cut next....

It's time to shop around...

It's time to shop around...

+1

I have been loyal to AirNZ until this year. They have lost any thought of loyalty being a two way street.
So now I am just about to turn 1K with United with travel from January.
Ironically will also re-qualify as Elite with AirNZ due to so many fares only accruing with AirNZ programme.

4) Seating Choice - Often I don't want a meal or movie on a morning flight, so would look at a Seat Only fare. But now (well for quite a while now), I can't choose my seat with that fare till I arrive to check in, and the choices are scarce. Often I end up without any seating advantage on the standard pitch, or rarely get the option of a middle seat that I don't really like.

What FF benefit will be cut next....

@dex_
I am just wondering how close to departure do you book? Am GE and has no problem selecting seats on TT flights on Seat-only fare. However, I must say that they are on the RHS of the A320 with restricted seat-pitch though

Like many GE, call me sceptical, I can feel that the worse is yet to come, just don't know when AirNZ would put better value back into their programe. To me, there is no value in praising how many new members they sign-on but really look after those who need to be looked after and not just keep on focusing on how many members they have

@dex_
I am just wondering how close to departure do you book? Am GE and has no problem selecting seats on TT flights on Seat-only fare. However, I must say that they are on the RHS of the A320 with restricted seat-pitch though


Usually I book the week before. Occasionally a little earlier. So once check in time comes around - unless you get out real early for the morning flight, you can't get one of the LHS seats where the bigger pitch is. When I have checked for bookings made the week before, there isn't much on the right either. There has been when I booked months in advance, but I can seldom do that.

Sounds like a call to 0800 Qantas is in order :rolleyes:.
Although from my experience until you hit WP status and get to enjoy the things like F lounges, GE is better than SG.

Might I suggest that although your perks have fallen the cost of travel trans tasman on NZ under the S2S model has fallen substantially. 2 or 3 years ago lead in fares started at $220, now they are $149. All this while fuel and other costs continue to rise.

Buy buying seat only fares you are saving $50 per flight, so why complain that you are earning 5 or 10 less apd?

If you want to sit in the space+ zones PAY for a works fare and choose your seat - it that simple.

How do you make gold elite flying seat only trans tasman...? Do it weekly?

Headline, lead-in fares are precisely that - to get the public's attention.
My data shows that the average WLG-SYD ticket cost US$247 in 2009 (12 month average). For the 12 months to March this year the average o/w ticket price is US$281. I have the NZ data to hand and it shows a similar rise in their fares. And I am pretty sure it is the same on every other TT service; even those routes with a Jetstar presence.
Not only is yield up, but so are passenger volumes.

I assume that their lead-in fare is lower because they can sell more seats per flight, but that the inventory for this lead-in fare is very restricted.

I feel that my fares to Aus have increased but I only take about 6 flight per year so it is difficult for me to compare like-for-like.

I simply don't buy this drop in yield. Only last month NZ said that their TT services are now making money as they are permitted to collude/co-operate on fares with DJ.

NZ have got it good every which way; higher fares, more passengers, price co-operation, a drop in benefits and reduced airpoints earning.

Headline, lead-in fares are precisely that - to get the public's attention.
My data shows that the average WLG-SYD ticket cost US$247 in 2009 (12 month average). For the 12 months to March this year the average o/w ticket price is US$281. I have the NZ data to hand and it shows a similar rise in their fares. And I am pretty sure it is the same on every other TT service; even those routes with a Jetstar presence.
Not only is yield up, but so are passenger volumes.

I assume that their lead-in fare is lower because they can sell more seats per flight, but that the inventory for this lead-in fare is very restricted.

I feel that my fares to Aus have increased but I only take about 6 flight per year so it is difficult for me to compare like-for-like.

I simply don't buy this drop in yield. Only last month NZ said that their TT services are now making money as they are permitted to collude/co-operate on fares with DJ.

NZ have got it good every which way; higher fares, more passengers, price co-operation, a drop in benefits and reduced airpoints earning.

How does you data incorporate S2S and the options you have? Straight away you can save $50 each way if you don't want extras. This is surely an improvement and has been wildly successful even amongst ffers.

No doubt overall yield has risen- you can read about this in NZ's monthly operating stats. However cost have risen too. Especially fuel. Those that begrudge NZ the small profit they make should be thankful we have them instead of Ryanair. And those that make insulting comparisons should try Easyjet or Ryanair. There is no similarity. Standing up for 45mins in line to board and then fighting over seats, arguing over locker space etc, this happens very very little on NZ. As for the full service carriers you might get a small ham roll and a can of coke but thats it.

From a kiwi now living in the UK and flying alot around europe - you don't know how good you have it in NZ.

...

Buy buying seat only fares you are saving $50 per flight, so why complain that you are earning 5 or 10 less apd?

If you want to sit in the space+ zones PAY for a works fare and choose your seat - it that simple.
...But ... I get all that flying Qantas when on sale matched ... for similar costs as on NZ ...

My Airpoint balance is currently 2¢ after spending my last hundreds to upgrade LAX-AKL to R class.

If all goes to plan, I will not earn another airpoint until at least 2014 while still PAXing on some AirNZ transpacific flights - I'll be crediting to Velocity.

Speaking as a Brit living in NZ (for the last three years) I think I do know how good I had it - and my nearest airport was Manchester, not any of the London airports.

One thing I had was choice (LH,BA,SK,SN,AF,KL,EI,IB,AY,TK,LX). I used to fly around Europe in Swiss business class fares for about $600. I struggle to get a return Y fare from WLG to Aus on that fare.

However, Ryan and easyJet are a de-humanising way to fly.

Might I suggest that although your perks have fallen the cost of travel trans tasman on NZ under the S2S model has fallen substantially. 2 or 3 years ago lead in fares started at $220, now they are $149. All this while fuel and other costs continue to rise.

Buy buying seat only fares you are saving $50 per flight, so why complain that you are earning 5 or 10 less apd?

If you want to sit in the space+ zones PAY for a works fare and choose your seat - it that simple.

How do you make gold elite flying seat only trans tasman...? Do it weekly?

Hi. I'm actually earning 15 to 30 airpoints dollars less for some fares, and 5 extra on others. So it takes 3 or 6 of those 5ap extra flights and a to get what I had on a economy or full economy before. Based on my flying profile, I'm getting less airpoints dollars under this regime.

You get 30 status points minimum on any TT flight. I make GE flying a lot - and although it's not weekly - it's close.

As mentioned, I don't book that much in advance, and even though the costs - as others put - seem to be much the same, I am actually paying more.. Averaging 1150+ this last 7 month period, vs around 950 for the 2 previous years. There may be cheaper flights, but I'm not getting them. For the last 7 months, I've paid 200+ more on average, (although the last 3 have been low, and bought this average down).

And as for: "If you want to sit in the space+ zones PAY for a works fare and choose your seat - it that simple." - Yep, that is what I often do - thereby not taking advantage of the 'choose what you want flexible offerings', and loosing what I used to get as a GE perk regardless.

There seems to have been a steady decline in what I get out of my Gold Elite status on Air NZ in the last couple years. The changes are done for a number of reasons - "Everyone now gets Airpoints dollars", "People wanted Flexibility", etc, all with a spin to say we asked for it or said we wanted it. Well, I wasn't asked, and all I really see is the decreased benefits to me, and I would expect other short trip TT business travellers from Wellinton,

...

What FF benefit will be cut next....

My honest advice: depending on your routes, have a serious look into QF. I've pretty much switched pretty much all my flying to them (and even JQ "J" class on AKL-SIN), became QF Gold easily in the 2nd half of last year, have already renewed it for this year and am on a good way towards Platinum.

Flying on NZ is pretty much down to New Zealand domestic.

It may be true that fares have dropped ex-AKL, but ex-WLG from what I've seen the Trans-Tasman alliance has seen fares shoot up, given the ex-WLG market has moved from an oligopoly to a duopoly.

My honest advice: depending on your routes, have a serious look into QF. I've pretty much switched pretty much all my flying to them (and even JQ "J" class on AKL-SIN), became QF Gold easily in the 2nd half of last year, have already renewed it for this year and am on a good way towards Platinum.

Flying on NZ is pretty much down to New Zealand domestic.
+1
But I swapped alliances and to QF in particular years ago as NZ introduced S2S which meant NZ did not suit me.;)

Reading this thread, it seems the chorus of a song (entitled 'Something New') that Air New Zealand had written for an advertising campaign seem particularly prescient about the airline's relationship with its customers today:

I know where I'm going to
I don't need no help from you
What is it coming to (yeah)
I'm ready for something new.

one has to wonder how much longer qantas will even exist...

one has to wonder how much longer qantas will even exist...... hmmm ... that not a really useful post in relation to this thread ...

Now there's a funny thing. Just looking through the Flying Blue forum (I am losing status with them now I am in NZ) I notice that FB has asked their FFPs, via this website, to engage with them on how they would like to structure their awards.
Notorious for being stingy and inflexible, FB wants ideas on awards and how they stack up relative to the competition.
They have even had a 'do'' to meet and talk to frequent flyers. We keep reading about how Airpoints ímprovements' are as a result of feedback, but as an elite for three years I have never been asked to provide my thoughts.
This is the sort of thing NZ should be doing. Their membership is highly concentrated and very vocal.
It is clear that the endless enhancements and patches on the scheme is turning Airpoints into a monster of a scheme to administer.
Of course, from a position of increasing dominance (no price competition from D7 anymore, JQ going to 3/week on SIN/declining QF/declining JQ on the TT) they may feel this is not necessary as our options are limited.

It appears that some more of NZ favourites are coming out to soften the ground for more changes. Amazing how they pop in and out just as NZ are making changes. Call me cynical but if you are a shareholder then why are you so happy with the loss of high value customers? Should you not be questioning the rational of pushing HVC's to other airlines?

Our British based cousins may have some valid points to make but do not just limit your input to glorifying NZ as after all no one is perfect, yet you make NZ out to be God. No complaints over reduction in earning, no comments about freeing up APD as a free for all, no comments about totally useless ads with AB's in burning snags.

NZ have done the proverbial in their own nest, stop disloyalty.

Our British based cousins may have some valid points to make but do not just limit your input to glorifying NZ as after all no one is perfect, yet you make NZ out to be God. No complaints over reduction in earning, no comments about freeing up APD as a free for all, no comments about totally useless ads with AB's in burning snags.

Very well said. I think some people have just idolised NZ and their CEO and would agree with anything they did. I doubt very much these people are frequent flyers themselves and know about other airlines and other FFP's.

When you have virtually no domestic competition there is little incentive to pamper frequent flyers. The fact that only cattle class exists on domestic flights and business was removed from TT flight calls into question how much coddling is necessary to retain HVC, considering they are still mostly here. Granted some will leave, but it looks like NZ has little choice but to become the "Southwest" of the south pacific. Long haul flights of course are the exception, here NZ is shifting to provide more tools to upgrade for the kettles. Not saying I like it, just that they seemed to have crunched numbers and the writing is on the wall. When you look at EK coming into CHC the long haul competition may rise, I would have thought this would spur a more conventional miles program to better align with *A.

NZ may need the support of their Star chums if QF and EK buddy-up. CEO of EK said today that they are going to enter a commercial deal with QF but not quite as far as equity purchase.

Become a Velocity Member.Ironically I also have a Thai Royal Orchid Plus Membership which is of little use on NZ unless you are willing to pay through your nose to find a fare on the Tasman that qualifies for points.

I don't know if this applies to anyone else:

I was not concerned by the savage cutbacks that were made to Airpoints. After all, I didn't fly Air New Zealand for its frequent flyer programme or indeed its check-in staff. In fact I flew it in spite of those factors.

But the most recent savage cutbacks to the airline itself concern me greatly. These are extremely noticeable to passengers. Particularly as they appear to be leading to a desecration of staff moral.

These days asking for connection information in an NZ lounge seems more likely to yield "Sure. Your lips and my arse" than anything helpful.

Very well said. I think some people have just idolised NZ and their CEO and would agree with anything they did. I doubt very much these people are frequent flyers themselves and know about other airlines and other FFP's.

I assume this is directed at me so I will respond and clarify my position.

I am invested in NZ and have a strong conviction in the turnaround of the business. My desired outcome is the strong financial performance of Air NZ.

My conviction in the current strategy towards becoming a hybrid carrier reflects the financial success of hybrid and lcc carriers such as easyjet and ryanair - and the ongoing underperformance of premium carriers including AF/KLM, LH, even SQ. All of which operate in far more economically weathy and business centric hubs than Auckland which as the most powerful city in NZ has a relatively low gdp per cap, and is mostly a tourist gateway.

Don't get me wrong I don't want to see NZ piss off HVC's, however a balance needs to exist where NZ can make a sustainable return on capital employed. Over the past 10 years NZ has overly focused on premium customers and has not stimulated demand through low fares. Competion has impacted NZ performance (where competion exits) and like other premium carriers financial performance has suffered. Despite protestations of HVC's the overwhelming number of economy travellers are price consious and unwilling to pay for extra luxury and service. Hell even many Gold elites are flying seat only or seat+ bag because they dont want food and brought their own IFE.

With the runaway success of S2s in turning around the financial performance of the TT market it is simply UNDENIABLE that a hybrid business model is going to be the future for NZ. Hence grabaseat+bag, and S2s on medium haul, and 10across 773. - Remember that the premium economy and business product remains superb and as I say - NZ can be a hybrid carrier - offering excellent premium products as well as value and choice in economy. All great stuff as far as I am concerned and with the fall in fuel price, reduction in headcount and changes to the Longhaul business I see a massive improvement in financial results ahead.

As for DCF or koruman - please don't try to claim it is the virgin tie-up which has improved the TT performance and not S2s. The virgin tie up HAS improved the performance but no where near as significantly as S2s. And please no conspiracy theory's. At the end of the day NZ is out to make a profit like any business and not to reduce your quality of flight experience for spite.

Anyway I hope you respect my views - and I will continue to enjoy monitoring rumors and perceptions of NZ - through others sharing on this forum.

Cheers

As for DCF or koruman - please don't try to claim it is the virgin tie-up which has improved the TT performance and not S2s. The virgin tie up HAS improved the performance but no where near as significantly as S2s.I am not DCF or koruman, but I know the decrease in NZ's yields on the Tasman that S2S caused. The DJ Alliance has proven to be far more positive financially. I note that this is directly the inverse of what you are claiming.

There are also several counterfactuals that you need to consider. There were a number of options for the Tasman business on the table, one of which was putting 'Seat' in the rear of the plane. Think about it: avoid the the surprisingly large cost of reconfiguring the A320 fleet (twice as it turns out), simpler service for crews and a clearer demarcation between products (for example, Elites that fly 'Seat' at the moment because they see no benefit in a very low quality economy class meal and the poor selection of films on the Panasonic AVOD system would be unlikely to fly a 'Lite' product that involves sitting right in the back with every seat around occupied).

What S2S as implemented did is effectively fire Air New Zealand's highest yielding customers, few though that they may be. The point is that it didn't need to. The question is how you can continue to have confidence in the relevant member of the Senior Management Team who thought this could possibly be a good idea.

What S2S as implemented did is effectively fire Air New Zealand's highest yielding customers, few though that they may be. The point is that it didn't need to. The question is how you can continue to have confidence in the relevant member of the Senior Management Team who thought this could possibly be a good idea.

This is exactly what I have been saying for a long time.

Generally AirNZ is one of the better airlines out there, but as I continually say, they operate in a competitive environment and my loyalty to an airline is rewarded by others far more than it ever is on AirNZ.

I now only fly AirNZ domestically, because I hate onestar and most domestic routes that I fly have zero competition, and when I can pick up a cheap business class Trans-Tasman flight.

I now spend ~8000 p.a. on AirNZ, which is somewhat down from 80k.....

And you say that is a good business model modandm?????

I also cannot understand the media idolisation of Fyfe. My pick is that AirNZ will be buggered again in 5 years, the usual suspects will blame a government sell-down in shares, but the one that will be entirely responsible will be Fyfe, as all of this was initiated on his watch.

Modandm, you have a curious definition of a "superb" Business Class product.

It is one thing to remove all the moisturiser and soapy products from the bathrooms. Most passengers would not notice, except the airline has kindly left the empty dispenser fixings in place.

Also, cutting long-haul Business Class frequent flyer accrual by 45-70% while leaving Status Point earning untouched also leaves a telegraphed "we are cutting costs" message.

But that's okay: right from your very first post you championed Business Premier as an auction target for Economy passengers.

Like Mattyroo, I'm no longer even angry at Air New Zealand's attitude towards my loyalty. They have actually given me the impetus to try their competitors, and I like what I've seen.

the last 3 posts are perfect examples of the groupthink that exists in this forum.

1stly to ntddevsys - you say yields have fallen. From the operating stats published monthly truth emerges.

FACT: Over the period October-2010 to March 2012 shorthaul yields have grown an average of 0.4% per month.

Comment - NZ has repeatedly commented that the minor yield decine has been more than offset by increased load factor and the result has been the tt business has gone from loss making to being quote "sustainable profitability".

2ndly to same user "What S2S as implemented did is effectively fire Air New Zealand's highest yielding customers, few though that they may be. The point is that it didn't need to. The question is how you can continue to have confidence in the relevant member of the Senior Management Team who thought this could possibly be a good idea."

I have confidence because, 1 - high yielding flyers can fly business on one of the daily widebodies crossing the tasman. In particular the 767 is deployed twice daily on AKL-SYD to capture these. As any regular TT flyer will know C is generally only half full or less trans tasman and some are upgrades.

Also you admit yourself "few though that they may be". I know CEO's that fly economy trans tasman and don't know a single firm which has a travel policy of business class transtasman. And I worked in Professional Services.
It is clear from the financial results of the change that the loss of some (not all) of these flyers has been more than offset by S2s product.

As to "how could this this could possibly be a good idea." It clearly has been based on financial results and the roll out of the model to perth and the pacific and now medium haul Bali etc. My question would be:

While I appreciated the S2s model may not suit you - how can you argue that it is a step in the wrong direction based on your experiences alone - counter to all the results and facts that NZ has given out?

There are two possible conclusions - either:

1. you and DCF et all are correct and NZ is lying to shareholders, analysts, etc in some elaborate conspiracy

OR

2. The S2s model doesn't suit some FFers who complain about it and take their business elsewhere BUT overall the model attracts a greater number of customers, costs are lower for NZ and the net result is increased profit.

Occums razor suggests 2. I think 2 is correct. I will lock that in Regis - final answer.

You guys can stick with your position 1. Good luck with that.

...

Comment - NZ has repeatedly commented that the minor yield decine has been more than offset by increased load factor and the result has been the tt business has gone from loss making to being quote "sustainable profitability"...Yip! AirNZ- the SWP equivalent of AirAsiaX for the Tasman (and nearby)!

...

..
2. The S2s model doesn't suit some FFers who complain about it and take their business elsewhere BUT overall the model attracts a greater number of customers, costs are lower for NZ and the net result is increased profit.
..or ..

3. What about the Unwanted non NZ resident - to be blunt -we have been given the @rse!

Obviously we did not fit the bean counters profiles, so why quibble - simply make us not a factor.

In the last 4 years have flown AirNZ for over 120 segments; in the next 12 months I have booked 4 merely to use my remaining Airponts Dollars. My speculative plan is for a further 4 segments through to 2015 using my remaining complimentary upgrades.

After that my GE finishes and I'd expect any Recognition upgrade I am granted to expire unused since I am unlikely to fly "AirNZ" anywhere.

the last 3 posts are perfect examples of the groupthink that exists in this forum.

1stly to ntddevsys - you say yields have fallen. From the operating stats published monthly truth emerges.

FACT: Over the period October-2010 to March 2012 shorthaul yields have grown an average of 0.4% per month.

Comment - NZ has repeatedly commented that the minor yield decine has been more than offset by increased load factor and the result has been the tt business has gone from loss making to being quote "sustainable profitability".I struggled to make it through your ill-considered and factually inaccurate post. The most important point of my post you have ignored as an inconvenient truth, that of the counterfactual.

You are also relying on relatively general data that has been released to the market. The immediate result of the introduction of S2S was multi-percent reduction in yields. That is a fact. It is not something you would trumpet as the executive responsible for this because it doesn't exactly look good does it.

Also you admit yourself "few though that they may be". I know CEO's that fly economy trans tasman and don't know a single firm which has a travel policy of business class transtasman. And I worked in Professional Services.That comment was actually a sarcastic retort to the airline's failure to cultivate this customer base. EK and SQ in particular have done a phenomenal job in this respect with the New Zealand market.

You are again relying on your personal experiences only. I can think of many Australian companies which allow Business Class travel for trans-Tasman, including for staff based in New Zealand (some of which make fortnightly trips to Sydney or Melbourne). I also know many senior executives, and some not-so-senior that do fly Business Class trans-Tasman. Additionally, while it is common for professional services firms in New Zealand to have an economy policy for trans-Tasman when the firm is paying for the travel itself, this can differ when the client is paying on engagement-related travel. By agreement with the client, it is extremely common in the context of significant trans-Tasman transactions for the client to agree Business Class (particularly when there are certain bankers also advising on the transaction). I also note that extremely high performing partners often just ignore the travel policy entirely.

That comment was actually a sarcastic retort to the airline's failure to cultivate this customer base. EK and SQ in particular have done a phenomenal job in this respect with the New Zealand market..

EK has no choice but to discount heavily due to their unique circumstances in flying premium laden a380s TT. You cannot expect a rational competitor to compete with this.

As for SQ - they are struggling against EK and losing. - see recent financials SQ make a loss - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577393804109735274.html

Also there regional C class which I have occasionally been stuck with on AKL-SIN is absolutly woefull.


You are again relying on your personal experiences only.

WHAT!!!!!:mad:

You and others rely on your personal experiences throughout!!!!

My core arguement is based on financials and operating statistics released by the airline.

EK has no choice but to discount heavily due to their unique circumstances in flying premium laden a380s TT. You cannot expect a rational competitor to compete with this.

As for SQ - they are struggling against EK and losing. - see recent financials SQ make a loss - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577393804109735274.html

Also there regional C class which I have occasionally been stuck with on AKL-SIN is absolutly woefull.Thank you for reinforcing my point. If only Air New Zealand was in a position to post such small losses (as a percentage of almost any financial measure). That would point to an effective strategy.

And SQ or EK's success ex-New Zealand cannot be chalked up to price - neither are the cheapest in any class for most city pairs.

And isn't instructive how SQ can put their old products on (particularly between SIN and Australia - MEL stands out in my mind) and still there are plenty of buyers.WHAT!!!!!:mad:

You and others rely on your personal experiences throughout!!!Not at all. How do you think I know that the immediate result of the introduction of S2S was a multi-percent reduction in yields. It should be pretty obvious.

Yet again, think about the conterfactual outcomes that may have resulted if S2S had not been so bungled.

Modandm, please don't accuse me of claiming that Air NZ is lying to shareholders. I hadn't even considered it.

I simply don't believe that most moves are properly planned. The Perth, Bali, Honolulu and Papeete S2S implementation actually predate the outcome of the long-haul review.

If you live in a black and white "my way or the highway" world you are going to find aviation a tough old market. Your "hybrid" model seems to forget that aviation is a service industry, and that long-haul and high-yield passengers expect certain standards, while you seem to be telling them to like it or go away.

Most recent NZ changes were applied within a monopoly or duopoly setting. But Emirates, Singapore Airlines and Cathay rather inconveniently won't reduce their standards in step with NZ, so it will be fascinating to see what happens.

I have confidence because, 1 - high yielding flyers can fly business on one of the daily widebodies crossing the tasman. In particular the 767 is deployed twice daily on AKL-SYD to capture these. As any regular TT flyer will know C is generally only half full or less trans tasman and some are upgrades.
As an Aucklander I know we have a tendency to forget about anywhere else in the country, however NZ is letting the WLG (in particular) and CHC markets suffer here.

I used to commute WLG-MEL (and later, AKL-MEL) weekly and my spend was typically ca. $1000/week - and my upgrades didn't exactly always clear into business either.

As an Aucklander I know we have a tendency to forget about anywhere else in the country, however NZ is letting the WLG (in particular) and CHC markets suffer here.

I used to commute WLG-MEL (and later, AKL-MEL) weekly and my spend was typically ca. $1000/week - and my upgrades didn't exactly always clear into business either.
I can tell you that I got tired of Mrs Blackcloud's upgrades hardly coming through out of WLG as well. For some reason, familial loyalty and her desire to maintain NZ *G, saw her fly NZ while I flew QF. We both tired of this, and alternated flying QF and NZ in paid business class up to the point that NZ stripped out the Business Class seats before S2S was to be fully implemented, forcing an involuntary downgrade, then being stuck in the non-Space+ seats (on my birthday):mad:. I have had one international NZ flight nearly 2 years since due to a near monopoly on that route.
I have happily dropped from GE to KC *S, burning my Airpoints balance, and only fly NZ domestic, and travel JQ for my personal flights if by myself.
If NZ believe their strategy is good for them, then so be it, I have passed caring and I would not suggest them as an airline to fly as on the whole I do not think they resent good value. BP is OK but does not provide the value for what they charge, I am not a fan of EK or SQ but do fly EK TT in Business Class on the occassion but would not consider them further afield.

As an Aucklander I know we have a tendency to forget about anywhere else in the country, however NZ is letting the WLG (in particular) and CHC markets suffer here.

I used to commute WLG-MEL (and later, AKL-MEL) weekly and my spend was typically ca. $1000/week - and my upgrades didn't exactly always clear into business either.

I've also noticed that the TT special fares that pop up from time to time are only available on the early AM and late PM flights, effectively rendering them uneconomic for travellers outside Auckland, who would have to overnight in AKL on both legs of the journey. Previously there was much more availability on these specials.

I've also noticed that the TT special fares that pop up from time to time are only available on the early AM and late PM flights, effectively rendering them uneconomic for travellers outside Auckland, who would have to overnight in AKL on both legs of the journey. Previously there was much more availability on these specials.

You wanna be in South Island, they appear to be getting reday to drop CHC as a NZ venue for TT. Try getting out of Brisbane on a Monday you have DJ.
NZ totally screwed the pooch with the S2S cheap garbage. Never a big spender but about 16 to 20K a year on ourselves and getting family down, this year one TT to Melbourne to try and use an upgrade, nothing at all booked with NZ for rest of year, have gone to Emirates and Qantas as at least they fly from CHC.

As for business class, yes lots from AKL to SYD, but if you live in CHC and want to fly J then have to go to AKL for anything and do they add the extras on especailly if you do not live in main centres/

They stuffed up and maybe once Mr Fyfe goes and some one pulls their head out of the clouds then NZ get back on track as after all thought they were supposed to be an airline not a debit card provider!!

You wanna be in South Island, they appear to be getting reday to drop CHC as a NZ venue for TT. Try getting out of Brisbane on a Monday you have DJ.


It seems to be seasonal, I know certainly for Sydney that flights through winter on NZ have reduced and more on DJ but it increases again in October.

Is it to free up aircraft for Sydney-Queenstown?

Who are you - modandm ??

I would give your posts more credibility if I knew who you really are

NZ stripped out the Business Class seats before S2S was to be fully implemented, forcing an involuntary downgrade, then being stuck in the non-Space+ seats (on my birthday):mad:.I was also downgraded from 01A to something like 06F under similar circumstances - October 2010 the week before Seats to Suit was actually introduced. The first reconfigured A320. And despite noticing this problem and alerting the airline in a rather direct manner before the flight, nothing was done (even though they could have kept me assigned to seat 01A even thought it would not be a Business Class seat).

But at least it was not my birthday. That is rough.

Who are you - modandm ??

I would give your posts more credibility if I knew who you really are

i am an investor. you know the ones you want to subsidise your luxury travel and perks

i am an investor. you know the ones you want to subsidise your luxury travel and perks

Good on yer. We need more people to invest in this airline, not just the 4 million people in NZ - oops do we people of NZ own this airline, why yes Heathcliff ya all do.

So we own it, well we will damn well moan and comment, just a shame that the NZ board only listen to a few well chosen handpicked lackeys.

No who are you, an investor is as crappy as answer as NZ give to people who ask why they have done what they have done. Maybe you are, no, you couldn't be, are you the one lever who can lift NZ up, or are you the school leaver who has put NZ down?

i am an investor. you know the ones you want to subsidise your luxury travel and perks

As an investor you must be really happy with what the current management has achieved with the share price.... at the same time as turning loyal customers into only occasional users of their airline.
Wonder if the two are linked....
Me, I am happy I sold my shares at close to $1.50, about the same time they had me questioning my regular business purchases with them......

I would note that a number of contributors to this thread, including myself, are also (or perhaps: indeed actually in reality) shareholders in Air New Zealand Limited. Unsurprisingly the interests of shareholders that are not the Crown are not necessarily different from frequent and/or formerly frequent customers. Funny that.

i am an investor. you know the ones you want to subsidise your luxury travel and perks

what an interesting quote! Have been silent but just can't help but help myself to write the following with due respect and hope anyone reading this would not be offended by this (no red lol)

Just declaration before anything else, I am not an investor of AirNZ and is GE.

Dear Investors

Of course companies exists to make money and there is never enough that one would want (or expect to get) however, I believe in the humble 80/20 rule where 80% of the company's revenue/business are earn/consumed by 20% your clients.

Now, without being Statistically correct or even bothered to work out for the case for AirNZ where they ever expanding their customer base by the day or minute, one have to admit that any company should look after their HVC.

Although one would argue if HVC are really "high-value" but judging by the number of sectors they do (where investors must realise that customers do have options here), GE is or should be the most important group of customer the airline has. I cannot think of a single non-budget carrier that would not work/invest in loyalty.

Personally, given the importance of GE and possibly Gold, most discussions/theme on this forum so far has been focused on why the airline would like to axe their money tree.

Yes, people are price sensitive and most of us would tend to go with the cheapest option, it is just being opportunistic - nothing wrong, just in the same case where share holders are wishing to get the most return.

However, I disagree strongly that it is the investors who are funding perks or luxury travel. On the other hand, luxury travel (when paid) are funding the perks that they get for themselves and often companies makes an indirect profit when benefits are not recognised on time (say airpoints/status points/recognition upgrades expiring - I know not a good example here in the case of APD never expires for GE and cardholders of certain credit cards, which is paid for by the Banks, and not Air NZ).

Consider how much full fare J costs compared to that of Y and one would work out that the true profit yield by a J pax is multi-fold more than Y and in an extreme case for CX (I deliberately used another example other than AirNZ but still within the aviation field), the CEO once quote they make 20x more revenue selling 1 F seat (HKG - JFK (around $15k NZD one way) (once again, AirNZ axed all their F) to make up for 20 Y.

Not saying that would be true for NZ, but a full J fare is between 3 and 5 times more expensive (very rough) and it is not rocket science that they are making a very good yield out of them, compared to people who only buy Y or cheapest fares.

The idea of making an attractive programe is that the airline would return some of their revenue gained through HVC back to them so that they can retain them. If this is what you mean here by supporting our perks, I guess it is true, but it is NOT through what the investor has put in, but what the HVC has put in themselves IMHO! In fact, it is the HVC that is funding the loyalty division here and it is not being funded by the airline, so I sincerely ask investors to think twice what comes first, what would happen to a company without valued customers? People have to be realistic here that people do have options!

The accountants (at least good ones) should know everything comes with a cost and the arguments here are (1) how much and (2) where is the funds coming from?

With regards to how much, it is clear that all airlines are controlling, as one can see the availability of I and R seats. If they were not considering, then there would be no limits until every single seat is filled! and some would disagree with me here, the how much is subsidised by the extra revenue/gains that the airline gets from the HVC (no free lunch here). Everything has a cost and all these R and I seats are being paid for indirectly from within.

What the Airline has done recently is to chop this fine line/balance in the name of cutting costs and what we are seeing here include

1. Reduction in the value (feel free to look at other threads) highlight is sharp reduction in APD/SP earning rates in Business Class/ Economy Class

2. OneUp/ changes to the upgrade process indirectly removing the importance/loyalty of FF resulting in

Cutting tires with the airline, chopping up loyalty cards, working out exit plans, writing to Senior management (not that really helps), jumping ship to other FFP and in the process of Stage one and in the process, extracting the most out of what they have, getting R seats confirmed, burning APD, which are all very costly.

One needs to stay sober here need to put the thinking cap here as to WHO damage this relationship first?

In conclusion, I am very worried if one should invest in the airline without doing enough homework to know enough about the industry. On the same matter, why do people think that airlines across the world have to invest so heavily in IT systems, uniforms, logos, brand, alliance and the like?!?! Why should the money invested should go towards these? HVC is only one of the major part in running the business, and most importantly, this is where your revenue comes from!