US Airways Dividend Miles - Cancelled Flight - Aircraft unavailable

For today's flight from LAS to PHL, it was cancelled at about 5 AM this morning (the flight was supposed to leave at 11:20 AM). Definitely not what I want to hear on my cell phone to wake me up that early. The reason given was "aircraft is unavailable because of a prior cancellation due to aircraft maintenance."

I'll be getting into Philly about 3 hours late due to this (and lost my upgrade). Since I have nothing else much to do in the airport, I thought I'd post and see if people think this is something to complain about. When a flight is cancelled due to weather, it's understandable. However, this seemed to be within US Airways' control and was wondering what others thought on this.

And plus, keep me entertained while waiting for my flight :)

For today's flight from LAS to PHL, it was cancelled at about 5 AM this morning (the flight was supposed to leave at 11:20 AM). Definitely not what I want to hear on my cell phone to wake me up that early. The reason given was "aircraft is unavailable because of a prior cancellation due to aircraft maintenance."

I'll be getting into Philly about 3 hours late due to this (and lost my upgrade). Since I have nothing else much to do in the airport, I thought I'd post and see if people think this is something to complain about. When a flight is cancelled due to weather, it's understandable. However, this seemed to be within US Airways' control and was wondering what others thought on this.

And plus, keep me entertained while waiting for my flight :)

Well, it seems to me that the two worst things about what has happened to you are:

Loss of upgrade (this would really frost me)
No US Club or convenient UA club at LAS


Unfortunately, US doesn't really owe you (or any of the rest of us) anything for these indignities. (I would whine a lot gently near the gate about 1, on the off-chance that this might get you a last-minute upgrade. If people are going to miss F at the last minute, they are going to do it at LAS.)

My experience is that I have been compensated by US for missing aircraft delays that are overnight on TATLs, but not on 3-hour TCONs. But whether this is policy or just my experience is not something I know.

While I understand your frustration (especially with the loss of an upgrade as an SP on that long of a flight) and have plenty of experience with IROPS I dont think that complaining will get you very far IMHO.

They are going to get you to your destination on the same day as your ticket is booked albeit a few hours later. Check out part 9 of the contract of carriage below. (That will help you kill some time for a few minutes ;) )

"9.1 US Airways' Responsibility for Schedules and Operations
US Airways undertakes to use its best efforts to transport the customer and baggage with reasonable dispatch. Times shown in websites, advertisements, timetables or elsewhere are not guaranteed and form no part of the Contract of Carriage. US Airways may substitute alternate carriers or aircraft, change seat assignment, and may alter or omit stopping places shown on the ticket in case of necessity. Schedules are subject to change without notice. US Airways is not responsible or liable for substituting aircraft, changing seat assignments, making connections, failing to operate any flight according to schedule, or changing the schedule of any flight.

In the event of a Force Majeure Event, US Airways without notice, may cancel, terminate, divert, postpone, or delay any flight, right of carriage or reservations (whether or not confirmed) without liability on the part of US Airways. US Airways also reserves the right to determine if any departure or landing should be made without liability on the part of US Airways. US Airways may reschedule the customer on another available US Airways flight or refund any unused portions of the ticket in the form of a travel certificate"

The rest of it is at the below link if you want to kill some more time while waiting

http://www.usairways.com/en-CH/travel_information/customers_first/carriage6.html

Unless you like Slots LAS is not the most happening airport to be stuck in either I think the food selection sucks and there is no club anymore :td: I do feel for you but I dont think you have much recourse with them in this situation. If they ignored you and left you for days there with no attempt to get you home...then you have a beef but in this case there is not much to do but wait. Sorry I dont have better news for you. Hope your time in LAS was fun at least.

(I would whine a lot gently near the gate about 1, on the off-chance that this might get you a last-minute upgrade. If people are going to miss F at the last minute, they are going to do it at LAS.)
.

Unfortunately, they already told me I'm at #10 on the upgrade list, so no real shot at that.

You won't get very far complaining about what seems to be a 3-hour delay. Maintenance issues happen all the time.

Would OP prefer to fly on an unsafe aircraft? No, he's not due any compensation.

If he had a paid F seat on the cancelled flight and accepted a downgrade, he would be entitled to the difference in value. Here, that amounts to $0.

Here's the story about what happened, as my uncle and brother were on the outbound.

Originator in Philly was Flight 435 operated by a West 321. Flight was fully loaded and the door ready to close. Pilot comes on and says as you can see on the left, the engine pylon sides are open and they're working on an issue. We have to do an engine test and then we should be all set to go. 10 minutes later he comes back on and says the flight is cancelled.

Before the pilot has even said the word cancelled, my brother was up from row 9 and off the plane to the Special Services Desk. He could tell by the pilot's intonation on the PA that it was not good. US couldn't rebook them until Monday, so he ended up purchasing tickets on SW leaving PHL at 3pm and getting into LAS via MDW at 7pm and getting the outbound refunded.

Later on my brother saw the pilot in the terminal and talks to him. Apparently there was some sort of crack in the engine. This was the 2nd day of a 3 day trip, and the next day they were going to do LAS-PHX-SJD-PHX, which mean they were going to have to bump 6 people off other full PHL-LAS flights to make sure they were in place for Saturday. To make matters worse, there was a spare East 321 available in the hangar, but as we all know buy now 7 years later, the wall is still up between East and West.

On the LAS end, I found out that there were upwards of 50 European connections that were blown on your cancelled flight.

To make matters worse, there was a spare East 321 available in the hangar, but as we all know buy now 7 years later, the wall is still up between East and West.

So, US Airways really can't take a plane that's just sitting there and use it because of some "fictional" line? A plane can't be used by a pilot/flight attendant crew if it isn't one of "their" planes? That's pretty ridiculous. What is the logic behind that? Absolutely no one benefits from it!!!

The original logic was to prevent US from moving planes from one side of the operation to the other, or even threaten to, to gain leverage by pitting pilots from one side against the other. Of course, no one expected to be still operating under the transition agreement 3 years later, never mind coming up on 7 years later. The transition period was supposed to be relatively short - enough time to train everyone on one set of procedures, get approval from the FAA to operate on one certificate, settle seniority and negotiate single contracts for the affected groups.

Jim

So, US Airways really can't take a plane that's just sitting there and use it because of some "fictional" line? A plane can't be used by a pilot/flight attendant crew if it isn't one of "their" planes? That's pretty ridiculous. What is the logic behind that? Absolutely no one benefits from it!!!

Well what they could had done was cancel the flight and then add a section as a 9999 number and called out a East crew.

Well what they could had done was cancel the flight and then add a section as a 9999 number and called out a East crew.

That would require:

Forethought and planning
A company committed to the customer
Actual business acumen

Three things we know that are in short supply at US Airways.

Well what they could had done was cancel the flight and then add a section as a 9999 number and called out a East crew.

That would require:

Forethought and planning
A company committed to the customer
Actual business acumen

Three things we know that are in short supply at US Airways.

For the record, the TA prohibits doing that.

For the record, the TA prohibits doing that.

Apparently common sense and customer satisfaction are not part of TA either. How is 7 years of LOA93 working out for you?

As I explained above, common sense from the perspective of the two pilot groups is why the TA language exists. Without it, there would be nothing to prevent US from moving all the west planes to the east operation, hiring east pilots, and furloughing all west pilots (or vice versa) depending on which side could operate the flights the cheapest.

The problem is that almost two years after the TA was negotiated the pilot's arbitrated single seniority list came out, the east pilots didn't get what they wanted, and any thought of completing the transition quickly vanished. The possibility exists that IF the merger with AA goes through the problem will be solved rather quickly - the APA will become the sole union representing all pilots and wrap things up in short order. It also will help having a federal law making seniority arbitrations truly final and binding - no changing unions or other games trying to get out of the result.

Jim

Apparently common sense and customer satisfaction are not part of TA either. How is 7 years of LOA93 working out for you?

Not a US pilot, sorry.

That would require:

Forethought and planning
A company committed to the customer
Actual business acumen

Three things we know that are in short supply at US Airways.

As someone who has been with this company for 25 years, I can tell you that we do care about the customer and many actually DO plan out and commit to the customer.

As someone who has been with this company for 25 years, I can tell you that we do care about the customer and many actually DO plan out and commit to the customer.

I actually agree with you if your statement is regarding front line employees. Where the breakdown occurs IMO is as one goes up the food chain.

Executive Bonuses are tied to virtually everything but customer satisfaction. Why do you think US has developed this sudden obsession with on time departures? The DOT stats determine Parker's bonus. People get left behind as a result.

I've never been treated better in the sky then I have been on US. Front line is still the best domestically. Exception being some folks who have stayed on to long.

Executive Bonuses are tied to virtually everything but customer satisfaction. Why do you think US has developed this sudden obsession with on time departures? The DOT stats determine Parker's bonus. People get left behind as a result.

Are you suggesting that there is no correlation between these metrics and customer satisfaction? Those bonuses were selected for a reason. When flights operate on time, baggage isn't delayed, etc. customers are generally satisfied.

Are you suggesting that there is no correlation between these metrics and customer satisfaction? Those bonuses were selected for a reason. When flights operate on time, baggage isn't delayed, etc. customers are generally satisfied.

I'm suggesting the following. A quote from Herb Kelleher, a fellow who knows a bit about growing a profitable airline that has it's focus correct IMO.

S+B: Let’s start with some words from your award. You made an “audacious commitment” to putting employees first, customers second, and shareholders third. How did you get away with that for 20 years?

KELLEHER: When I started out, business school professors liked to pose a conundrum: Which do you put first, your employees, your customers, or your shareholders? As if that were an unanswerable question. My answer was very easy: You put your employees first. If you truly treat your employees that way, they will treat your customers well, your customers will come back, and that’s what makes your shareholders happy. So there is no constituency at war with any other constituency. Ultimately, it’s shareholder value that you’re producing.



The US executive comp plan does NOT address the fundamentals as described by Mr Kelleher and since WN has been profitable for 30+ years I'll take him at his word. Why doesn't Parker's Comp plan have a bonus component tied to employee satisfaction? Think we'd have a seven year squabble with the pilots if that were the case? Think of the internal rancor that situation creates and how it effects DOT metrics?

The US executive comp plan does NOT address the fundamentals as described by Mr Kelleher and since WN has been profitable for 30+ years I'll take him at his word. Why doesn't Parker's Comp plan have a bonus component tied to employee satisfaction? Think we'd have a seven year squabble with the pilots if that were the case? Think of the internal rancor that situation creates and how it effects DOT metrics?

One of the three metrics involved in the employee bonus plan is rate of DOT complaints. I believe that speaks volumes. In order to receive bonuses, all employees (including executives) need to ensure that complaints are low. Again, much of that is done by ensuring flights arrive on time, and baggage is not misplaced. Those are the three metrics, and they all tie into one common goal - customer satisfaction. I really don't understand how you can argue otherwise.

Furthermore, US constantly wins awards for employee satisfaction - Best for Vets, Best for Latinas, Best in Arizona, Best Equality, etc. Clearly, they are able to acheive a level of employee satisfaction despite their overall focus on customer satisfaction.

Perhaps you haven't been on board a US Airways flight recently, but in general employees appear to be quite satisfied. I've encountered a fewer miserable flight crews on US than on other carriers.

One of the three metrics involved in the employee bonus plan is rate of DOT complaints. I believe that speaks volumes. In order to receive bonuses, all employees (including executives) need to ensure that complaints are low. Again, much of that is done by ensuring flights arrive on time, and baggage is not misplaced. Those are the three metrics, and they all tie into one common goal - customer satisfaction. I really don't understand how you can argue otherwise.

Furthermore, US constantly wins awards for employee satisfaction - Best for Vets, Best for Latinas, Best in Arizona, Best Equality, etc. Clearly, they are able to acheive a level of employee satisfaction despite their overall focus on customer satisfaction.

Perhaps you haven't been on board a US Airways flight recently, but in general employees appear to be quite satisfied. I've encountered a fewer miserable flight crews on US than on other carriers.

Until you realize that to US Airways (and others) that you're just so much manure under their feet, you'll continue to have a very active Flyer Talk board. I've flown US and I don't know if the attitude is better or not. I still see an awful lot of eye rolls and such.

For me I expect NOTHING! That way I'm usually surprised. The airline has shown us time and again exactly who & what they are and I believe them. Truth is if you live near PHL and you have the business to make CP, US is your airline and you learn to deal with the devil you know vs one you don't. They all have good and bad points. Same if you live in MSP, then it's DL and all of their idiosyncrasies.

When I look at the numbers for WN and their attitude and approach and compare them to US, it's US that's found wanting by almost every available metric.

good grief.

3-hour delay with this much advance notice is rather unacceptable. but, yes, it happens.

just send an email *****ing about their inability to plan far enough ahead for an issue like this and how it inconvenienced you and maybe you'll get something out of it.

good grief.

3-hour delay with this much advance notice is rather unacceptable. but, yes, it happens.

just send an email *****ing about their inability to plan far enough ahead for an issue like this and how it inconvenienced you and maybe you'll get something out of it.

How is this an example of them not being able to plan ahead? Plane goes mechanical and it cancels. They notify passengers with plenty of time to make alternate arrangements. However with as full as flights are lately, there probably arent many alternates available including extra aircraft. Airlines are not miracle workers.

How is this an example of them not being able to plan ahead? Plane goes mechanical and it cancels. They notify passengers with plenty of time to make alternate arrangements. However with as full as flights are lately, there probably arent many alternates available including extra aircraft. Airlines are not miracle workers.

Ah...but there WAS an extra aircraft available according to an earlier post. The only reason they couldn't use it was because of BS contractual reasons. If you read earlier in the thread you'll see a perfectly suitable aircraft was sitting in the hangar in Philly. However, because of the whole East vs. West thing, they couldn't use it. There was nothing physically stopping them from using it and taking care of the customers. It's just contracts with their unions causing the problems, which to me is BS.

From a customer perspective, US Airways is one airline. They don't want to hear of the airlines' issues with their unions, especially one that will soon be close to a decade of needing fixing.

Ah...but there WAS an extra aircraft available according to an earlier post. The only reason they couldn't use it was because of BS contractual reasons. If you read earlier in the thread you'll see a perfectly suitable aircraft was sitting in the hangar in Philly. However, because of the whole East vs. West thing, they couldn't use it. There was nothing physically stopping them from using it and taking care of the customers. It's just contracts with their unions causing the problems, which to me is BS.

From a customer perspective, US Airways is one airline. They don't want to hear of the airlines' issues with their unions, especially one that will soon be close to a decade of needing fixing.

Union BS aside, who knows if that plane was actually available for use. Maybe it was assigned already to another flight? Possibly it was in the hanger for some sort of work?

Union BS aside, who knows if that plane was actually available for use. Maybe it was assigned already to another flight? Possibly it was in the hanger for some sort of work?

The captain of the cancelled outbound told my brother that it was indeed an operational spare.

The captain of the cancelled outbound told my brother that it was indeed an operational spare.

And who would believe what a West pilot would have to say about anything related to the East? I wouldnt believe anything one side says about the other.

Take away the contract issue and there are suddenly options. A hub is likely to have a spare airplane, especially an A320 family one. Even if the airplane in the hanger needed something routine - an overnight check, a non-essential item repaired, whatever - it could have potentially flown the flight and gotten the work done in LAS. In the worst case, a plane could have been pulled from another flight where the cancellation would have inconvenienced fewer people.

Unfortunately none of those options were available due to the transition agreement. IF there is a merger with AA, Parker seems to have learned from the last nearly 7 years and is setting things up to prevent a repeat.

Jim

And who would believe what a West pilot would have to say about anything related to the East? I wouldnt believe anything one side says about the other.

Despite what you may have been told (or even seen), very few pilots are so bitter as to lie to a customer about an operational spare, especially if nothing is mentioned about one side stonewalling the other.

Now, flight attendants on the other hand.... :(

Despite what you may have been told (or even seen), very few pilots are so bitter as to lie to a customer about an operational spare, especially if nothing is mentioned about one side stonewalling the other.

Now, flight attendants on the other hand.... :(

You'd be surprised. I've seen and heard pilots on both sides lie about aircraft, safety concerns, operational issues, company information, etc. Also, how would this pilot just happen to know there was a spare plane and if it truly was available for use??

Despite what you may have been told (or even seen), very few pilots are so bitter as to lie to a customer about an operational spare, especially if nothing is mentioned about one side stonewalling the other.

Now, flight attendants on the other hand.... :(

F/a's are quite amicable with each other.

F/a's are quite amicable with each other.

I do have my slight preference for US East FAs but that's only because I grew up knowing US Air and the subsequent pre-merger US Airways before America West came into the picture.

However I do have to agree that East & West FAs do get along more often compared to their Flight Deck brethren.

When am I flying with you or Flight62? It'd be a shame not to meet after all these years.

Also, how would this pilot just happen to know there was a spare plane and if it truly was available for use??

Via a gate agent, ops agent, or maybe even the dispatcher. I've seen it happen in PHX before... East plane went mechanical, with an available West plane ready to go a few gates down. It can be really frustrating...

Via a gate agent, ops agent, or maybe even the dispatcher. I've seen it happen in PHX before... East plane went mechanical, with an available West plane ready to go a few gates down. It can be really frustrating...

I highly doubt it. Gate agents and ops agents (gate agents especially) are not going to know about aircraft availability. And a dispatcher, is not going to give out information that would be of no benefit to the receiving party and if anything just serve to inflame a very sensitive situation.


Also, how would you know that the plane a few gates down wasnt scheduled for a later flight? Had issues that would prevent it from being available? etc.?

I highly doubt it. Gate agents and ops agents (gate agents especially) are not going to know about aircraft availability. And a dispatcher, is not going to give out information that would be of no benefit to the receiving party and if anything just serve to inflame a very sensitive situation.


Also, how would you know that the plane a few gates down wasnt scheduled for a later flight? Had issues that would prevent it from being available? etc.?

Here's what happened:

Last flight of the night to LAX went on a 2+ hour MX delay with an even chance of canceling. The pilot asked the dispatcher if there was a spare plane available, the dispatcher said no.The pilot noticed the same type of airplane sitting 4 gates down. He asked a gate agent if the airplane was a RON, gate agent confirmed it was. He called his dispatcher, seeing if they could take the plane, and informed that it was available and ready to go but it was West metal, and since they were an East crew they couldn't take it.

And, for the record, it's the ops agent's job to know (or find out by calling OCC) which aircraft are operational spares/RONs and which aren't. Gate agents can know (if they care) whether or not it RONs, and it's a phone call to ops to see if it's available.

Here's what happened:

Last flight of the night to LAX went on a 2+ hour MX delay with an even chance of canceling. The pilot asked the dispatcher if there was a spare plane available, the dispatcher said no.The pilot noticed the same type of airplane sitting 4 gates down. He asked a gate agent if the airplane was a RON, gate agent confirmed it was. He called his dispatcher, seeing if they could take the plane, and informed that it was available and ready to go but it was West metal, and since they were an East crew they couldn't take it.

And, for the record, it's the ops agent's job to know (or find out by calling OCC) which aircraft are operational spares/RONs and which aren't. Gate agents can know (if they care) whether or not it RONs, and it's a phone call to ops to see if it's available.

And again this is coming from a West pilot, who as a group have been very openly against their East counterparts (and vice versa). I wouldnt put much credit into what one side says about the other in regards to anything. Sounds much like the other story posted about the plane going to LAS. Information coming from questionable sources. Provide information direct from an impartial party (such as a dispatcher) and then we can talk.

And, for the record, ops agents dont handle aircraft scheduling, placement, etc. And gate agents are not going to get involved with aircraft scheduling with the exception of if a flight is a terminating flight, a gate change, etc..

Amazing that although after all these years, they haven't integrated the workforce from the US/HP merger, but they've convinced the AA unions that a merger with AA will be great for them.

Would OP prefer to fly on an unsafe aircraft? No, he's not due any compensation.I'm sure OP would prefer for US to perform sufficient maintenance and testing that they do not discover a cracked engine while passengers are sitting aboard the plane. Further, he might prefer that US was able to scrape up one spare operational aircraft plus crew permitted to operate that aircraft at their major hub, PHL, where the issue was discovered.

Aside from that, there are several countries (albeit countries teetering on the edge of financial collapse :D) where airlines are required to compensate passengers when mechanical issues cause multi-hour delays. Amazing that although after all these years, they haven't integrated the workforce from the US/HP merger, but they've convinced the AA unions that a merger with AA will be great for them.
:eek:

I'm sure OP would prefer for US to perform sufficient maintenance and testing that they do not discover a cracked engine while passengers are sitting aboard the plane. Further, he might prefer that US was able to scrape up one spare operational aircraft plus crew permitted to operate that aircraft at their major hub, PHL, where the issue was discovered.

Aside from that, there are several countries (albeit countries teetering on the edge of financial collapse :D) where airlines are required to compensate passengers when mechanical issues cause multi-hour delays.
:eek:

US Airways has an award winning maintenance and safety program. Even with the best of maintenance and testing programs, planes can and will break. Thats why pilots inspect their planes before the fly them to catch things that happen during flights, between flights, etc. In many cases, these inspections occur during passenger boarding, etc. Also, when a problem is found, sometimes boarding is not delayed if its thought that the problem can be fixed in a reasonable amount of time.

As to spare planes and crews, they are not always going to be available even at hub cities. It doesnt make financial sense to have all sorts of spares and extra crews sitting around.

And as to compensation, people have excessive expectations as to compensation. Just because other countries force their airlines to overcompensate, doesnt mean it should be done in the US. Quite honestly, what some countries do especially within the EU is excessive in most cases.

US Airways has an award winning maintenance and safety program. Even with the best of maintenance and testing programs, planes can and will break. Thats why pilots inspect their planes before the fly them to catch things that happen during flights, between flights, etc. In many cases, these inspections occur during passenger boarding, etc. Also, when a problem is found, sometimes boarding is not delayed if its thought that the problem can be fixed in a reasonable amount of time.

As to spare planes and crews, they are not always going to be available even at hub cities. It doesnt make financial sense to have all sorts of spares and extra crews sitting around.

And as to compensation, people have excessive expectations as to compensation. Just because other countries force their airlines to overcompensate, doesnt mean it should be done in the US. Quite honestly, what some countries do especially within the EU is excessive in most cases.

Planes do indeed break. The ideal place for them to break is while they are on the ground. US does have award winning MTC.

The mark of a great company is how they respond to customers when things so go wrong. Sadly US Airways is not a great company merely a good one with no desire to be great. Proactive is a word apparently not in their dictionary. Run around like banshee's when the poop is on the reciprocating blades they have mastered.

Compensation should never be defined by a Gov. Agency or law, this is a function of the free market and should remain so. Until high quality customer service flows to the bottom line it will remain as is. Regulation will just increase the cost of flying.

And again this is coming from a West pilot, who as a group have been very openly against their East counterparts (and vice versa). I wouldnt put much credit into what one side says about the other in regards to anything. Sounds much like the other story posted about the plane going to LAS. Information coming from questionable sources. Provide information direct from an impartial party (such as a dispatcher) and then we can talk.

And, for the record, ops agents dont handle aircraft scheduling, placement, etc. And gate agents are not going to get involved with aircraft scheduling with the exception of if a flight is a terminating flight, a gate change, etc..

I don't know what to tell you. I've spent about 6 years in the industry now, and I know who knows what. I personally witnessed the events I described, and it's reasonable to assume they happened similarly in PHL.

I don't know what to tell you. I've spent about 6 years in the industry now, and I know who knows what. I personally witnessed the events I described, and it's reasonable to assume they happened similarly in PHL.

PHL defies reason and logic. We also know what happens to folks who assume.

However, contrary to some opinions it's not unusual for the captain of a flight to know why it cancelled. Even in PHL. S/he will be coordinating with OCC anyway.

Jim