Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Visa applications that ask for religious affiliation

How do you deal with applications for visas to countries where the application includes a requirement to fill the field for "religion"? [In many such cases, even stating "other" involves a demand for further specification; and the idea of "not going" isn't really a practical solution for all such situations.]

When it comes to countries with an official state religion, their asking for religious disposition (inclusive of agnosticism or atheism) to be disclosed on a visa application is not as much of a surprise as when religious identity is demanded by governments of countries without a state religion. Requiring such disclosure seems to run counter to the principal of personal religious disposition (including agnosticism or atheism) being a personal matter rather than a matter to be discussed with government employees, more so in countries that claim to be secular and/or without an official state religion.

As a practical matter, such identification also can open a door to possible problems when: (a) families may include persons of different religious dispositions; and/or (b) applications are being made on behalf of children, family members or otherwise; and/or (c) religious affiliation disclosure may result in religious-based railroading/sidelining when it comes to family reunification, child custody, inheritance/estate planning/probate, death and/or health matters (in the host country but perhaps also in the home country).

under "religion", I write "yes". Never been questioned on it.

under "religion", I write "yes". Never been questioned on it.

I like that - I think I'll write "No" ^:D

I like that - I think I'll write "No" ^:D

Home Baptist:p

It may be the case that some bureaucrat (or statistician) had a lot of time on their hands, and thought it would be nice to have this info.:rolleyes:

I usually write "Confuscianism" despite it being more of an ethical and philosophical idea than a religion. Never been questioned about it.

I enter Pastafarian, never been questioned.

Zen Baptist...

... I think about going to church.

It may be the case that some bureaucrat (or statistician) had a lot of time on their hands, and thought it would be nice to have this info.:rolleyes:

If only that were the case.

I rest assured that for those destinations where this is a part of the visa application form for business and/or tourist visitors, the demand for the information is generally not arising out of a bureaucrat's (or statistician's) benevolent interest in generating data about the demographic background of tourists in the aggregate. Rather it is more about the following: "security" paranoia. That and figuring out when/if/how (not) to grant a visa (if any) to the applicant -- a determination made based on an individual applicant's ethnic and/or religious affiliation(s) -- and to figure out who to target/tail upon arrival in the country (even if granted a visa).

Ironically perhaps, at least one such host country is more likely to discriminate against foreign citizen visa applicants with host country indigenous ethnic background(s) than to discriminate against foreign citizen applicants with no host country indigenous ethnic background even when it is clear that those foreigners of host country indigenous ethnic backgrounds are no more likely to violate the law once in the host country than others.

For example, one such country that has forms that include a religion field on visa applications: India. Natural-born US citizens of exclusively Indian ethnic origins (or perceived to be of such ethnic backgrounds) but applying for an Indian visa are more likely to be given problems (or additional document handover requirements) by the Indian government when applying for an Indian visa than the ethnic Polish-American spouse of such an Indian-American applicant.

I enter Pastafarian, never been questioned.

^^^

Visa applications for Saudi Arabia require your religion. I put done "none". It was crossed out by the officials and the word "christian" inserted.
If you want the visa don't argue.

Visa applications for Saudi Arabia require your religion. I put done "none". It was crossed out by the officials and the word "christian" inserted.
If you want the visa don't argue.

I had exactly the same experience with Saudi a few years ago.

I wonder what they would say if I put AmillennialPaedobaptismPredestinarian

I wonder what they would say if I put AmillennialPaedobaptismPredestinarian

Either "Denied" or you would be arrested upon entering the country.

When going to some places, you simply get with the program and write what you are expected to write or you don't go. It's as simple as that.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, westeners are expected to be good Christians, so we would put that as our religion, no matter what you believe in.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, westeners are expected to be good Christians, so we would put that as our religion, no matter what you believe in.

if I write "Muslim", would it be changed to "Christian" based on where I live ?

Not generally, cynicAAl. Not even if the Manhattan-residing, European-American is named Jose Chistopher ____.

Either "Denied" or you would be arrested upon entering the country.

When going to some places, you simply get with the program and write what you are expected to write or you don't go. It's as simple as that.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, westeners are expected to be good Christians, so we would put that as our religion, no matter what you believe in.

It's really not that simple.

I have seen Saudi visa applications submitted by US citizens that were accepted with the religion listed as a variety of made-up things or with some non-Christian actual affiliations; and they mainly got the visas issued without issue and the associated application forms filed without altering the entries submitted by the visa applicants.

I am looking forward to finding out what people are doing vis-a-vis the Indian government's visa applications that request religious affiliation disclosure. [Unlike with Saudi Arabia, India formally has no state religion and there is a lot of freedom of religion in some ways.]

I'd tell the truth, although I'd be tempted to declare myself a frisbeetarian.

Mike

OK, now I am curious. What other countries ask this?

Saudi Arabia
India

Raelian

I am looking forward to finding out what people are doing vis-a-vis the Indian government's visa applications that request religious affiliation disclosure. [Unlike with Saudi Arabia, India formally has no state religion and there is a lot of freedom of religion in some ways.]
"NONE". Including on a form that only had a tick-box option of pre-approved religions (and 'none' wasn't one).

Never been asked about it, and I can't say it has ever been very important to me.

if I write "Muslim", would it be changed to "Christian" based on where I live ?

You'd better be one, if you write it. First, you'll then have to specify which sect you belong to - I'd rather not wager on the "incorrect" one. Second, one must sign a paper as part of the visa application that you understand that lying about your religion (among other things) can lead to very inconvenient circumstances.

Whereas I don't see the Saudis examing the depth of your Christian belief, I'm quite sure they have a few specialist when it comes to the followers of Mohammed...

Of course I always wonder if "pedestrian" would be an acceptable option :)

Whereas I don't see the Saudis examing the depth of your Christian belief, I'm quite sure they have a few specialist when it comes to the followers of Mohammed...

They're mostly asking because access to Mecca is restricted to Muslims, and your visa won't be valid for this area if you aren't one. I don't know if they examine your faith in depth beside this administrative problem. They must get Muslims workers of all denominations with a work visa, and even more on a Hajj visa.


Of course I always wonder if "pedestrian" would be an acceptable option :)

With the UK having 10,000 or so people claiming to be of Jedi faith in a public census, who knows? :)

if I write "Muslim", would it be changed to "Christian" based on where I live ?

More likely based on your appearance.

More likely based on your appearance.

Definitely not generally based on appearance.

What you suggest is not what happened at the Saudi embassy in DC in the years where I was well connected with Saudi diplomats in the area and reasonably well connected with those running the Saudi intelligence establishment -- rather recent years at that. If there is any evidence of a change in the past couple of years, it probably would be a surprise even to the current Saudi ambassador to the US.

There are many millions of ethnic European-looking muslims, and at least tens of thousands of ethnic European-American muslims living in the US. Thousands of such persons apply for Saudi visas, many of them with names that most Americans and Canadians and ordinary Saudis wouldn't recognize as being names of muslims. Yet there generally is no religious identity adjustment to their applications either.

I'm no fan of Saudi Arabia -- and I put the Saudi government in the same category as the den of snakes that is the the Pakistani government -- but at least things are actually rather obvious with their reactionary ways that making up stuff to criticize the Saudi government is just a waste since there are various legitimate grounds upon which to criticize Saudi Arabia without imagining things.

You'd better be one, if you write it. First, you'll then have to specify which sect you belong to - I'd rather not wager on the "incorrect" one. Second, one must sign a paper as part of the visa application that you understand that lying about your religion (among other things) can lead to very inconvenient circumstances.

Whereas I don't see the Saudis examing the depth of your Christian belief, I'm quite sure they have a few specialist when it comes to the followers of Mohammed...

Of course I always wonder if "pedestrian" would be an acceptable option :)

They have no reliable, routine way to testing religious affiliation of muslims. I have not heard of them asking male visa applicants to "whip it out" to do a circumcision check or doing a stomach contents examination to figure out if a person willfully eats pork and drinks alcohol or not.

More likely based on your appearance.

There are two blond haired, blue eyed muslim girls at one of my companies.
Both are from Bosnia, and both hard core muslims.

"Don't judge a book by its cover"

They have no reliable, routine way to testing religious affiliation of muslims. I have not heard of them asking male visa applicants to "whip it out" to do a circumcision check or doing a stomach contents examination to figure out if a person willfully eats pork and drinks alcohol or not.

The checks you suggest wouldn't flush out any Mossad agents, either :D

Still, I would not suggest getting a KSA visa under falsely stating religion as Moslim when in fact one is not.

They're mostly asking because access to Mecca is restricted to Muslims, and your visa won't be valid for this area if you aren't one. I don't know if they examine your faith in depth beside this administrative problem. They must get Muslims workers of all denominations with a work visa, and even more on a Hajj visa.


While it's true that acces to Mekka (and Medinah?) is restricted to people of the Mohamedian persuasion, I think religion is not mentioned in the visa itself. (hajj visas are a totally different issue, I'm talking normal business visas)

The checks you suggest wouldn't flush out any Mossad agents, either :D

Still, I would not suggest getting a KSA visa under falsely stating religion as Moslim when in fact one is not.

Suggesting it or not, people filing for Saudi visas have claimed things that are not true in order to get a Saudi visa (including for purposes of the religious tourism visas) and most have apparently gotten away with it. To get caught would require really being an idiot or a glutton for punishment. :eek:

At least in some areas and at some times, Saudi visas have asked for religious identity even when the purpose of the intended visit had nothing to do with religious tourism visas (for the Hajj or otherwise). And those who indicated religion as Judaism when applying for various kinds of Saudi visas would often see the results of Saudi bigotry in action and be refused. Not always, but often.

Indian visa applications in recent years definitely ask for religion at least in India's largest OECD tourist source countries -- something that was not true for most of India's post-Independence history.

Suggesting it or not, people filing for Saudi visas have claimed things that are not true in order to get a Saudi visa

Sure - and as long as it's not Moslim, I don't see any special issues with that. Of course to each his/her own pleasures, but somehow I see a visit to KSA already an extreme(ly boring) sport without the need to spice it up claiming to be Moslim.

Saudi visas have asked for religious identity even when the purpose of the intended visit had nothing to do with religious tourism visas

AFAIK they always ask, part of the standard application.

OK, now I am curious. What other countries ask this?

Saudi Arabia
India

Many (most?) Middle Eastern countries ask. I know Egypt and Yemen do. Historically, I have simply lied and put Christian. I can't imagine a single good reason for them to want to know, but I can imagine a number of pretty compelling reasons for me to not tell them.

Many (most?) Middle Eastern countries ask. I know Egypt and Yemen do. Historically, I have simply lied and put Christian. I can't imagine a single good reason for them to want to know, but I can imagine a number of pretty compelling reasons for me to not tell them.

Egypt? You put the 20 euro note on the desk at CAI, receive a sticker, that's your visa. No questions asked.
Jordan is the same.
Oman detto (but it's a 50 euro note)
For Iran one actually must fill in an application at IKA, but it doesn't ask religious affiliation.
Syrians ask if you ever visited "occupied Palestine" but our perception of what is occupied Palestine is rather different so it easy to answer truthfully:)

I don't know about Lebanon, but would be very much surprised if they asked any questions at all. Yemen, Iraq - no experience

The UAE asks, for work visas at least.

What about Indonesia? Do they ask?

Apart from the inadvisability of being Jewish in Saudi Arabia, what other 'problem' religions are there in which countries? I have zero desire to visit Saudi Arabia, less than zero, much less, but who else asks and which religions are problematic?

What's the deal with India?

For tourist visas, Indonesia does not generally ask for such on its visa forms IIRC.


What's the deal with India?

US Thanksgiving long-weekend attacks around Bombay, and then Indian government taking advice from out-of-control US DHS/DHS-supporting types that make illogical jumps in trying to supposedly prevent criminal activity that has already taken place.

What about Indonesia? Do they ask?

In Indonesia, for most countries, it's a visa on arrival. You put your bank notes down at the cashier's desk (I think it was 25 USD) and that's it. No form.

I think the best was Oman or it might have been Qatar, where the immigration officer has a credit card terminal. Very efficient as it's one-step processing.

In Indonesia, for most countries, it's a visa on arrival. You put your bank notes down at the cashier's desk (I think it was 25 USD) and that's it. No form.

I think the best was Oman or it might have been Qatar, where the immigration officer has a credit card terminal. Very efficient as it's one-step processing.

Wouldn't it be nice if the US would do this? But I guess Hell will freeze over before they ever get sensible

In Indonesia, for most countries, it's a visa on arrival. You put your bank notes down at the cashier's desk (I think it was 25 USD) and that's it. No form.



Though if you're Israeli you're denied entry, so they must ask to see your passport, and 25$ ain't gonna fix it. Since about half of all Jews live in Israel, it's kinda like Jewish = no entry.

Though if you're Israeli you're denied entry, so they must ask to see your passport, and 25$ ain't gonna fix it. Since about half of all Jews live in Israel, it's kinda like Jewish = no entry.

I doubt Israel is included in the list of countries where you can get a visa on arrival.

Israel is included on a list of countries that grant visa on arrival to some countries' citizens.Though if you're Israeli you're denied entry, so they must ask to see your passport, and 25$ ain't gonna fix it. Since about half of all Jews live in Israel, it's kinda like Jewish = no entry.

Not even close. Keep in mind that Israeli passport holders include many Muslims, Christians, atheists and others beside the majority of such passport holders who are Jewish.

Just saw that NA got cleared on applications for India and Saudi Arabia.

[QUOTE=GUWonder;18790268]

Not even close./QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean. Fifty percent of all Jews world wide live in Israel. They're denied entry to indonesia.

How do you deal with applications for visas to countries where the application includes a requirement to fill the field for "religion"? [In many such cases, even stating "other" involves a demand for further specification; and the idea of "not going" isn't really a practical solution for all such situations.]

When it comes to countries with an official state religion, their asking for religious disposition (inclusive of agnosticism or atheism) to be disclosed on a visa application is not as much of a surprise as when religious identity is demanded by governments of countries without a state religion. Requiring such disclosure seems to run counter to the principal of personal religious disposition (including agnosticism or atheism) being a personal matter rather than a matter to be discussed with government employees, more so in countries that claim to be secular and/or without an official state religion.

As a practical matter, such identification also can open a door to possible problems when: (a) families may include persons of different religious dispositions; and/or (b) applications are being made on behalf of children, family members or otherwise; and/or (c) religious affiliation disclosure may result in religious-based railroading/sidelining when it comes to family reunification, child custody, inheritance/estate planning/probate, death and/or health matters (in the host country but perhaps also in the home country).

Druid, Reformed.

under "religion", I write "yes". Never been questioned on it.

I take it you have never applied for a Visa to India in this case.

[QUOTE=GUWonder;18790268]

Not even close./QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean. Fifty percent of all Jews world wide live in Israel. They're denied entry to indonesia.

The majority of persons of Jewish faith can either enter Indonesia with a visa on arrival or by acquiring a visa in advance. That includes Israelis whose religion is Judaism and have dual-/multiple citizenship status.

50% of one religious group holding Israeli citizenship does not equal anywhere close to 100% of the same religious group not being able to travel to Indonesia. Israeli Jews also go to Indonesia -- some even live there -- as long as in possession of at least some non-Israeli travel document acceptable to Indonesian authorities.

Indonesia is not anywhere close to being Saudi Arabia, the latter of which has a history of often -- but not always -- knee-jerk rejecting those visa applicants who presented religious affiliation with Judaism.

I take it you have never applied for a Visa to India in this case.

It is possible to type/write "yes" in that field. Select other followed by entering "yes". Also for many years, India had no such field as a requirement for completion -- some with 10 year visas or OCI or PIO status have never completed an entry for religion with anything and/or anything other than "yes".

I always left it blank, and had plenty of visas. Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Saudi Arabia (the old single entry, expensive ones in use in the late 90s). Lebanon, Jordan, so on and so forth.

I never bothered to look and see if anyone at any of the embassies ever wrote anything in.

Turkish arrivals visas, I swear I paid a different amount every time I went.

On a related matter, whenever I enter Brasil, under "sexo" on the immigration form, I always write "sim". At close to 50 entries, I've never had anyone say a thing.

I work getting visas for pilots. I am quite familiar with the Saudi application. On the application the answer for religious affiliation is either "MOSLEM" or other. We believe the issue with this is if you are indeed a "MOSLEM" you will then be subject to the religious police more so than if you were simply "other"

India is another country that asks for the applicant's religion. You can choose other and NA as a response to the question.

I work getting visas for pilots. I am quite familiar with the Saudi application. On the application the answer for religious affiliation is either "MOSLEM" or other. We believe the issue with this is if you are indeed a "MOSLEM" you will then be subject to the religious police more so than if you were simply "other"

I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years - in Riyadh on the Al Rabwah compound near Khurais Road. My visa app and visa renewals as submitted by our rather generous sponsor (for example, we didn't have to surrender our passports, we held onto them; we had visas designated as Multiple Entry/Exit and didn't need Entry/Exits every time we wanted to go somewhere) always said "Christian". I never put "Other" and I lived there and believe me, the Muta'waa hassled me no less and no more than any other blonde and blue-eyed Westerner.

I'm a bit confused by your assertion, since the Muta'waa aren't hanging out at passport control at King Khalid; they're far too busy running around like whirling dervishes at the Faisaliah Center on Olaayya screaming at women, mostly us heathen and wanton Westeners, to cover our hair. :p I think I saw Muta'waa at KKIA twice in three years - and when I lived in KSA I had status on BA, so I flew a lot.

The UAE asks, for work visas at least.

That matches my experience. They don't ask tourists, they ask for residency visas. Even though I don't consider myself anything, I wrote Christian on the form. Middle eastern customs is not the place to stand up on principle. Muslim employees get a few benefits that non-Muslims don't. The biggest one is a one in a lifetime ten or fifteen Haj leave.

If only that were the case.

I rest assured that for those destinations where this is a part of the visa application form for business and/or tourist visitors, the demand for the information is generally not arising out of a bureaucrat's (or statistician's) benevolent interest in generating data about the demographic background of tourists in the aggregate. Rather it is more about the following: "security" paranoia. That and figuring out when/if/how (not) to grant a visa (if any) to the applicant -- a determination made based on an individual applicant's ethnic and/or religious affiliation(s) -- and to figure out who to target/tail upon arrival in the country (even if granted a visa).

(snip)

For example, one such country that has forms that include a religion field on visa applications: India. Natural-born US citizens of exclusively Indian ethnic origins (or perceived to be of such ethnic backgrounds) but applying for an Indian visa are more likely to be given problems (or additional document handover requirements) by the Indian government when applying for an Indian visa than the ethnic Polish-American spouse of such an Indian-American applicant.

Visa applications for Saudi Arabia require your religion. I put done "none". It was crossed out by the officials and the word "christian" inserted.
If you want the visa don't argue.

I recently completed an application for an Indian visa. It's pretty obvious that the purpose of many of the questions on the form is to discover whether you are likely to have affiliations to one of the countries that India is currently "touchy" about, especially Pakistan.

As well as the "usual"questions, the form requires you to give the names and place of birth of your parents.

I'm agnostic. However, I declared my religion as "Christian" for the purposes of the application. My intent was to not raise any red flags or delay granting of the visa.

I got the visa!

Ironic this thread was bumped today. I submitted a KSA Business Visa application today, and I filled the application three times.

First time I answered how I answer at my doctor's office and at the hospital: Jedi. My office's travel guy who reviewed the app objected, so I filled out another one.

Second time i answered how I answer when someone pushes me: Atheist. The travel guy objected again.

Finally I said f!!! it, and I answered Christian-Roman Catholic. i was baptized and received my first communion, but was never confirmed, so I sort of count. He accepted this one.

Hopefully the embassy is ok with this.

For those who travel to Middle East a lot, it is a well-known fact that putting "atheist" or "agnostic" on a visa application is not a good idea. Basically, it would be like putting word "godless" which is much worse than Christianity or even Judaism in the eyes of many Muslims.

I agree with those who recommended not to stand you principles when it comes to Middle East, especially if one has a rather limited experience with it.

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Sudan also asks

Whatever about religion, Nigeria asks you to declare your hair colour on visa applications and has no option for blonde or red...

Whatever about religion, Nigeria asks you to declare your hair colour on visa applications and has no option for blonde or red...

So options are black or brown? That is funny...


I am an atheist and proud of it. Atheists are statistically the least probable persons to commit crimes (proportions of atheist felons are much lower than proportions of atheists in the general community). If a country denies me entry on my religious beliefs (or lack of), I won´t visit them.

For those who travel to Middle East a lot, it is a well-known fact that putting "atheist" or "agnostic" on a visa application is not a good idea. Basically, it would be like putting word "godless" which is much worse than Christianity or even Judaism in the eyes of many Muslims.

I agree with those who recommended not to stand you principles when it comes to Middle East, especially if one has a rather limited experience with it.

"Atheist" submission hasn't slowed down any of our KSA visa applications or increased processing times. YMMV, but much the same goes for the Sudan.

under "religion", I write "yes". Never been questioned on it.

under the question for "sex", I once wrote "yes, please" and the visa office clerk was not amused. :)

under "religion" I just put "Swedish"

"Atheist" submission hasn't slowed down any of our KSA visa applications or increased processing times. YMMV, but much the same goes for the Sudan.

I presume it to be consulate (or agent) dependent.

Working with the Saudi Consulate in Houston they flat out told us several times our people should all put Christian (save for the one Sunni in the group).

At the Embassy in D.C. they didn't seem to care.

But of course YMMV

The Indonesian entry form does not ask for religious affiliation.

Passing through immigration at RGN (Rangoon) had me cogitate for a bit about why the entry form asked for my grandfather's name.