Southwest Rapid Rewards - New Schedule (11-2 to 2-4) includes AirTran flights

Looks like the new schedule includes some AirTran flights listed as Southwest. For example:

--MKE-MSP on Southwest.com lists the exact same flight times as on AirTran.com.

--Nothing obvious indicates the flight is operated by AirTran

--The aircraft says it is a 143-seat 737-700. On AirTran they say these are all 717s.

--When you click on the flight it says 2 free bags

If you look at MKE-LGA, a market served by both airlines, you see both WN and all three FL flights listed as Southwest with nothing indicating who's who or what's what.


I'm curious what this all means and how it will play out. Plenty, plenty of questions, curiosities, conflicts, etc come to mind from this.

Excellent catch, knope2001! FTers don't miss anything!

I posted a link to this thread on the AirTran forum, since their schedule extended at the same time. I also shared your observation that November 3 appears to be when operations will fully combine.

Thanks!

I'm not quite sure what to make of it all yet because it does not seem *all* routes are cross-sold.

I'm only looking at MKE so far because it's what I know best, and also I already poured over the FL schedule extension for Milwaukee over the weekend.

Some markets like MKE-MSP and MKE-BOS, never flown by Southwest, appear to show AirTran flights as if they were their own.

Some markets like MKE-RSW don't show the AirTran nonstops.

Some joint markets like MKE-LGA show both Southwest and AirTran flights together as if they were all Southwest.

Some joint markets like MKE-MCO only show Southwest flights on southwest.com but not the Airtran flights.

MKE-FLL is a real oddity. It's been an AirTran route for years, and Southwest flew it 1x/day last winter as well. Here's what the new schedule looks like for early January:

MKE-FLL
3:45pm - 7:48pm on airtran.com
3:45pm - 7:55pm on southwest.com

FLL-MKE
12:30pm - 2:44pm on airtran.com
12:30pm - 2:50pm on southwest.com

It seems very odd that both airlines would operate a single round trip with perflectly identical departure times both directions. And it's not like late afternoon is a popular departure time for MKE-Florida flying. Yet if it's the same flight it doesn't make sense that the arrival times are later for the Southwest flights. Hmmm....

Now that i'm looking at it more closely, it appears that the AirTran flights listed in southwest.com have the same departure time but all have different arrival times.

MKE-LGA nonstops on southwest.com
06:00 09:10
09:15 12:25
13:00 16:05
15:20 18:30
18:35 21:45

MKE-LGA nonstops on airtran.com
09:15 12:17
13:00 16:02
15:20 18:22


There's no way they're really flying 8x MKE-LGA with three Southwest flights exactly matching the AirTran MKE departure times. These are the same flights listed in both places.


Here's what I see out of MKE (referring to nonstop flights only here)

AirTran-only markets with AirTran flights for sale on southwest.com
BOS
SFO
MSP
FLL

Mixed markets with both Southwest and AirTran flights for sale on southwest.com
BWI
LGA


AirTran-only markets with no AirTran flights for sale on southwest.com
DCA
ATL
RSW


Mixed markets with only Southwest flights for sale on southwest.com
MCO
TPA

There's no sign of any Southwest flights showing up on Airtran.com.

FWIW EYW had a "full" Southwest schedule (aka the 2 flights), but that has since been pulled as far as I could tell.

The flights on southwest.com appear to have been incorrectly loaded to airtran.com as well. They are now off of airtran.com (where they showed up all weekend and this morning) and are only on southwest.com.

At least this explains how they were going to roll out co-branded flights without resolving things like gates, bag fees, frequent flyer award policies, etc, etc. They aren't...these are markets moving from AirTran to Southwest.

Here the official PR from WN/FL:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/southwest-airlines-airtran-airways-announce-153900753.html

Southwest's new markets include:

Two daily nonstop flights between Dallas Love Field and Harlingen
One daily nonstop flight between Denver and Louisville
Two daily nonstop flights between Houston Hobby and Indianapolis
One daily nonstop flight between Houston Hobby and Orange County
One daily nonstop flight between Kansas City and New Orleans


Southwest assumes flying from AirTran:

One daily nonstop flight between Key West and Orlando
One daily nonstop flight between Key West and Tampa Bay
Two daily nonstop flights between Boston Logan and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Milwaukee
Five daily nonstop flights between Minneapolis-St. Paul and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between San Francisco and Milwaukee
One daily nonstop flight between Orlando and Minneapolis-St. Paul


AirTran has also made adjustments to its flight schedule to accommodate seasonal demand to several destinations.

AirTran's seasonal new markets include:

One daily nonstop flight between Buffalo and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Akron-Canton and Ft. Myers
One daily nonstop flight between Columbus and Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood
One daily nonstop flight between Columbus and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Indianapolis
One daily nonstop flight between Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood and Philadelphia
One daily nonstop flight between Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay
One daily nonstop flight between Rochester and Tampa Bay
Four weekly nonstop flights between Flint and Ft. Myers
Four weekly nonstop flights between Grand Rapids and Ft. Myers

Are they really going to keep Key West at just two flights? Or will this eventually grow to include a BWI flight and maybe one more someplace else.

Are they really going to keep Key West at just two flights? Or will this eventually grow to include a BWI flight and maybe one more someplace else.

The extremely short runway at EYW limits flights to no further than TPA, MCO, or FLL.

DL gets 737s as far as ATL but I believe they have uprated engines that FL/WN aircraft don't have. FL only flew as far as TPA and MCO so I'm assuming they are not capable of getting to ATL.

As a Houston based Southwest flyer it's nice to see more new routes even if it comes out to about a handful of flights. Up until about two years ago it felt like they were happy at keeping with the status quo but now it seems like we manage to eke out a new route fairly regularly now. It would be sweet if the newfound discontent for UAL here in the area along with our newly earned role as WN's central America hub would take us over and beyond 200 flights per day.

Is the nonstop daily service to/from STL-SAN being reduced to either seasonal or weekly? I've flown it a number of times and looked to book it for November, but only see Saturday availability.

Thanks!

I'm not quite sure what to make of it all yet because it does not seem *all* routes are cross-sold.

I'm only looking at MKE so far because it's what I know best, and also I already poured over the FL schedule extension for Milwaukee over the weekend.

MKE-FLL is a real oddity. It's been an AirTran route for years, and Southwest flew it 1x/day last winter as well. Here's what the new schedule looks like for early January:

MKE-FLL
3:45pm - 7:48pm on airtran.com
3:45pm - 7:55pm on southwest.com

FLL-MKE
12:30pm - 2:44pm on airtran.com
12:30pm - 2:50pm on southwest.com



The departure times are different, depending on day of week, varying from an early MKE departure time of anywhere between 12:35 and 3:50 PM; FLL-MKE also varies with even more variance in departure times.

The departure times are different, depending on day of week, varying from an early MKE departure time of anywhere between 12:35 and 3:50 PM; FLL-MKE also varies with even more variance in departure times.

The two months of schedule they rolled out has a 13 different PDF schedules covering the period. And within many of those individual schedules there are big day-of-week differences. Quite remarkable. In some markets are all over the board from one day to the next. It may be a masterpiece in terms of working the puzzle pieces on different days of the week to meet varying demand, but it can drive a customer nuts.

Is it "normal" for Southwest's schedule to jump around like this from period to period and day to day? As my team has tried using Southwest on MKE-STL they've been burned a couple of times assuming that the late afternoon return they could get on one week would be available a few weeks later, only to have the flight times move significantly after setting up a meeting with a client. We were spoiled with relatively consistant flight times for years, but that doesn't seem to be Southwest's M.O. in many cases, especially in markets with only a flight or two.

Southwest's new markets include:

Two daily nonstop flights between Dallas Love Field and Harlingen

Meanwhile, it looks like the morning nonstop from SAT-HRL and evening nonstop from HRL-SAT are gone. So, WN can't get me to the Valley until after 11 a.m. or get me back after 4 p.m.? :td:

Is it "normal" for Southwest's schedule to jump around like this from period to period and day to day? As my team has tried using Southwest on MKE-STL they've been burned a couple of times assuming that the late afternoon return they could get on one week would be available a few weeks later, only to have the flight times move significantly after setting up a meeting with a client. We were spoiled with relatively consistant flight times for years, but that doesn't seem to be Southwest's M.O. in many cases, especially in markets with only a flight or two.

Yes. And it really, really sucks. I don't mind flight times varying slightly, but one week you can have a fantastic option on a Thursday and two weeks later it's gone, only to reappear on a Wednesday.

Say what you will about DL or AS, but one thing that is nice about AS is their flight schedules are relatively constant. I can count on there being a 6a PHX-SEA, whereas on WN it might show up one week at 710a, then the next week it's 745a on MWF then the following month it's at 9a.

Speaking of schedule times, has anyone noticed the horrifically early flight times this summer? 545a departures are now common. These weren't originally loaded in the schedule when it first came out, IIRC. They were all 6a departures.

Why is the Fri and Sat LGA-MKE nonstop a shorter flight than on other days of the week? Do they know that everybody is anxious for the weekend in MKE? :D

From New York (LaGuardia) (LGA)

3414 7:00P 9:20P 1234__7 N/S
2944 7:00P 8:35P ____56_ N/S

Source: WN PDF schedule http://www.southwest.com/assets/pdfs/schedules/20121216_20120604_0500/mke.pdf

Actually, the Fri/Sat arrival time is the accurate one.

Are they really going to keep Key West at just two flights? Or will this eventually grow to include a BWI flight and maybe one more someplace else.

Actually, WN will have 1 flight each from MCO/TPA-EYW and not 2.

Actually, WN will have 1 flight each from MCO/TPA-EYW and not 2.

Which is exactly what elmherst indicated - a total of two flights out of EYW period: one flight to MCO and one to TPA.

Why is the Fri and Sat LGA-MKE nonstop a shorter flight than on other days of the week? Do they know that everybody is anxious for the weekend in MKE? :D

I suspect they think there will be fewer delays on Friday and Saturday and so they build in less padding.

I suspect they think there will be fewer delays on Friday and Saturday and so they build in less padding.

The same thought had occurred to me, so I checked LGA-MDW, but found no difference in flight durations for Fri and Sat.

Bill Owen's blog post (http://www.blogsouthwest.com/blog/new%E2%80%94holiday-season-2012-now-available) notes (bolding mine):
We will also transition a dozen or so Milwaukee flights from AirTran to Southwest. Southwest will take over five daily roundtrips to Minneapolis/St. Paul, two to Boston, three additional nonstops to New York/LaGuardia, and one each to Ft. Lauderdale and San Francisco. Each of these Southwest additions at Milwaukee corresponds to an equivalent reduction using AirTran aircraft.

The transition of three MKE-LGA flights was omitted from the press release.

The same thought had occurred to me, so I checked LGA-MDW, but found no difference in flight durations for Fri and Sat.

That is perhaps explained by allowing for different upstream delays.

So does HOU-AUS (148 miles) now assume the role as shortest route now that RSW-MCO (133 miles) is being discontinued? I can't find any that are shorter after a fairly cursory check.

WN is dropping IND-MDW. I assume the VFR, leisure and probably even some business pax were just driving the route. The remaining business traffic might be supporting IND-ORD on UA or AA? IND gains HOU service for the loss of MDW.

WN isn't selling PHL-IND via MDW for November and after. One has too book on FL and fly via ATL (or take the train and fly from BWI nonstop). There are some other connection itineries that will be lost out of it, or made more inconvenient as well.

It's bad enough that DAY is servicing both Dayton and Cincinnati, and that there is no DAY-BWI or DAY-MDW being added on WN now.

I can't wait for the day that DAY-MDW is a reality. ^

So does HOU-AUS (148 miles) now assume the role as shortest route now that RSW-MCO (133 miles) is being discontinued? I can't find any that are shorter after a fairly cursory check.

Yes, it was very short flight but, they won't able give you a beverage. If you fly more than 1.5 to 2.5 hours. This means they will give you a beverage & a peanuts, too.

Yes, it was very short flight but, they won't able give you a beverage. If you fly more than 1.5 to 2.5 hours. This means they will give you a beverage & a peanuts, too.

WN does beverage service (or tries to) on all flights, even HOU-AUS.

Are they really going to keep Key West at just two flights? Or will this eventually grow to include a BWI flight and maybe one more someplace else.

I doubt it. EYW is a *very* short runway and the variables of weather and fuel load make short hop connections preferred. More likely through flights through TPA currently daily or MCO.

So does HOU-AUS (148 miles) now assume the role as shortest route now that RSW-MCO (133 miles) is being discontinued? I can't find any that are shorter after a fairly cursory check.

You are our geography champion and you are asking us? :D

MCO-FLL (177) and HOU-CRP (187) are both longer than HOU-AUS, so I'm hard pressed to find a challenger to enter in the championship bout.

You are our geography champion and you are asking us? :D

MCO-FLL (177) and HOU-CRP (187) are both longer than HOU-AUS, so I'm hard pressed to find a challenger to enter in the championship bout.

from my count, AUS-HOU returns to its spot as shortest route (148)
Other routes under 200:
BWI-ORF (151)
BWI-EWR (169)
PBI-TPA (174)
FLL-MCO (177)
DAL-OKC (181)
RNO-OAK (181)
BWI-LGA (185)
HOU-CRP (187)
AUS-DAL (189)
HOU-SAT (192)
FLL-TPA (197)

from my count, AUS-HOU returns to its spot as shortest route (148)
Other routes under 200:
BWI-ORF (151)
BWI-EWR (169)
PBI-TPA (174)
FLL-MCO (177)
DAL-OKC (181)
RNO-OAK (181)
BWI-LGA (185)
HOU-CRP (187)
AUS-DAL (189)
HOU-SAT (192)
FLL-TPA (197)

And there is more short-haul flight.

PHX-LAS
LAS-RNO
SFO-LAX/SNA
SJC-LAX/BUR/ONT
MSP-MDW/MKE/STL
STL-MCI/MDW/MKE
IND-MDW
PHL-BDL/PVD/MHT/BOS
ISP-BWI
LGA-BWI
BWI-BDL/PVD/BOS/MHT

You will find more specific route.

I think the present HOU and BWI short-hauls (such as AUS-HOU, ORF-BWI) are safe because they open the door for international routes as well as connections towards many cities beyond. Along with international - BWI for northbound/southbound in the east coast, and HOU for intra Texas and South. MDW will have CUN but so will HOU.

I presume it's a no for GRR-MDW now. Curious what westbound city or cities GRR will get - maybe STL and DEN?

I'd say that GRR-MDW is still about 50/50 in that the driving time is longer than the straight line distance suggests given the presence of Lake Michigan.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that HOU-AUS has managed to soldier on as long as it has. I suspect that if this weren't a long served legacy WN route it probably would be cut. AUS has been built up into a decently busy station in its own right and it's no longer necessary to fly to HOU to get somewhere though impending international service out of HOU might change that dynamic somewhat.

I'd say that GRR-MDW is still about 50/50 in that the driving time is longer than the straight line distance suggests given the presence of Lake Michigan.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that HOU-AUS has managed to soldier on as long as it has. I suspect that if this weren't a long served legacy WN route it probably would be cut. AUS has been built up into a decently busy station in its own right and it's no longer necessary to fly to HOU to get somewhere though impending international service out of HOU might change that dynamic somewhat.

I think part of it also may have to do with aircraft rotations. Plus AUS has heavy legacy competition from DAL(/DFW) and HOU because of Southwest and they know that. When RSW opened up it needed MCO because of the routes, but realistically, how many people are flying RSW-ECP. They do need a lower midwest (::cough HOU cough:::) destination or a connection to LAS/PHX/DEN to be a complete station though. Same thing happened with JAX-TPA. It is an important business route to some and will be a big loss to those who need it, but the addition of LAS and DEN was a game changer for that route, which is why, I believe, PBI-TPA survives. FLL-TPA and MCO are not going anywhere though, although they have dropped in service levels over the years. Many people, myself included, use those routes, and Spirit keeps them in check on those routes.
And there is more short-haul flight.

PHX-LAS
LAS-RNO
SFO-LAX/SNA
SJC-LAX/BUR/ONT
MSP-MDW/MKE/STL
STL-MCI/MDW/MKE
IND-MDW
PHL-BDL/PVD/MHT/BOS
ISP-BWI
LGA-BWI
BWI-BDL/PVD/BOS/MHT

You will find more specific route.
IND-MDW is gone soon, I mentioned LGA-BWI. All of the others are over 200 miles. I was just looking at routes under 200 miles

I did mis LAS-ONT at 192

IND-MDW was/is 162
JAX-TPA was/is 181

GRR-MDW would be 137

In the case of RSW I'd think that if/when they finally get service to ATL that will sufficiently take care of connections to far and wide. Also, I suspect that there's significantly more interest for O/D on ATL-RSW than the one or two O/D passengers who flew MCO-RSW (if there were even that many).

Ok, so as someone who is still relatively new to this whole merger thing, is there anyway to book FL flights that are not listed on Southwest.com and take advantage of my companion pass? I am trying to get to the Cleveland area for Thanksgiving and would LOVE to hop on the direct MCO-CAK flights, but I'm guessing that isn't an option, right?

Ok, so as someone who is still relatively new to this whole merger thing, is there anyway to book FL flights that are not listed on Southwest.com and take advantage of my companion pass?

Not that I am aware of.

What is going on at MDW?!?!?!?

I used to fly ISP-MDW all the time (and it was the second most traveled destination out of ISP), and now it is cut. I also used to fly IND-MDW quite a bit (and have been for over a decade), and now it is cut as well?

What is going on at MDW?!?!?!?

I used to fly ISP-MDW all the time (and it was the second most traveled destination out of ISP), and now it is cut. I also used to fly IND-MDW quite a bit (and have been for over a decade), and now it is cut as well?

Actually WN is expanding quite a bit at MDW - OKC, CAK, DSM,to name a few. Apparently they are taking planes off of less lucrative routes and redeploying them to more profitable routes. Flights to ISP may have been full, but yields may be higher on other routes...it's all about the money.

Anyone on this tread know if WN will fly MDW > SNA then FL on a 717 (2+3) reflective of AA MD-80...which are being 'phased out'...
SNA > SJD ? Looking for a 'affordable' alternative to AA....

No 717s go international.