Finnair Plus - Finnair going low cost

What else would this mean, found on AY page "Information and services":

We are analysing some new service concepts, and from 1 June to 31 October on routes between Helsinki and Manchester we’ll serve a cold meal in Business Class. The food and beverages served in Business Class are free of charge.

When travelling in Economy Class, passengers have the opportunity to purchase products from a wide variety of food and drink options. In order to offer the products as fresh and of high quality as possible, the product selection may vary by flight.

The passenger travelling in the Economy Class to or from our Asian destinations will receive a free snack pack and a non-alcoholic drink (coffee, tea and fruit juice).

This means that in Y you get nothing free! This all sounds very LCC. And they once again, when making service downgrade, try to make it sound as an improvement - how is it an improvement if you get nothing.

The L-word is not popular around here, but yes I believe that they are.

They are likely to try out different concepts in the near future, as they themselves are not sure what they are turning into. They only know that they must make substantial cost savings (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finnair-plus/1348729-flybe-fly-part-ays-european-network.html) in euro traffic.
The text indicates that they are trying to separate the D/O traffic pax from the transiting pax, as they will hand out snack pack to them. It is a good thing that they will try to keep up some service for them, as they are a important part of the asian traffic.

It can be considered as an improvement, at least for the travelers who considered AY to be to expensive and who do not care about refreshments. Such travelers are not common around FT, but in the real world there are plenty of them :(

[QUOTE=sakari1707;18680455]We are analysing some new service concepts, and from 1 June to 31 October on routes between Helsinki and Manchester we’ll serve a cold meal in Business Class. The food and beverages served in Business Class are free of charge.

If they will introduce cold meals in J, for me there will be no more reason of flying AY in J within Europe. That's for sure.

To be brutally honest - I'm done with AY/BA. I would still prefer them given an option, but to be brutally honest:
a) they don't have a decent enough coverage in Eastern Europe.
b) the service compared to Turkish Airlines is just not even close to being acceptable
c) i don't like the guessing game and if i'm hungry, I'll just pay SK some money for it...
d) the morning flight TLL-HEL and the midnight return HEL-TLL is just always fully booked 4 weeks+ ahead, which makes it not usable.

Looks like - SAS gold in a couple of months and good-bye Oneworld Sapphire.

We are analysing some new service concepts, and from 1 June to 31 October on routes between Helsinki and Manchester we’ll serve a cold meal in Business Class. The food and beverages served in Business Class are free of charge.

If they will introduce cold meals in J, for me there will be no more reason of flying AY in J within Europe. That's for sure.

Air Berlin on AY codeshare is beginning to look like the quality choice for European legs. They (AB) are already codesharing with CX on intra-Germany onward flights. ^

Btw, why punish passengers going to Manchester especially? It's one of the best longhaul markets for AY AFAIK.

What else would this mean, found on AY page "Information and services":


The passenger travelling in the Economy Class to or from our Asian destinations will receive a free snack pack and a non-alcoholic drink (coffee, tea and fruit juice).


so does this mean that on a flight from HEL-BKK you only get a snack pack???

if so I will definately go another way :)

Finnair really seems to be lost...

so does this mean that on a flight from HEL-BKK you only get a snack pack???

if so I will definately go another way :)

Finnair really seems to be lost...

No, it means that if you connent on a MAN-HEL flight to a HEL-BKK flight, you will get a snack pack on the MAN-HEL leg. Service on the HEL-BKK flight (and for the moment, on the other European flights) remains unaltered.

It can be considered as an improvement, at least for the travelers who considered AY to be to expensive and who do not care about refreshments. Such travelers are not common around FT, but in the real world there are plenty of them :(

Do you really think that ticket prices would go down in that case? For a substantial price reduction, like a good chance of getting BUD-HEL-BUD in 150 EUR (from the current 250-300 EUR level) if purchased well in advance, I would certainly trade at least a part of the service. But I doubt that such a decrease in price would happen, especially where there is little or zero competition (like the BUD market).

To be brutally honest - I'm done with AY/BA. I would still prefer them given an option, but to be brutally honest:
a) they don't have a decent enough coverage in Eastern Europe.
b) the service compared to Turkish Airlines is just not even close to being acceptable
c) i don't like the guessing game and if i'm hungry, I'll just pay SK some money for it...
d) the morning flight TLL-HEL and the midnight return HEL-TLL is just always fully booked 4 weeks+ ahead, which makes it not usable.

Looks like - SAS gold in a couple of months and good-bye Oneworld Sapphire.

a) ex-HEL you have WAW, BUD and PRG (?) with a seasonal LJU or ZAG thrown in. I think OTP was slashed as was KBP. OW pax to the Balkans really miss MA. The only real option is LH (sometimes SK as well), because OS slashed it's direct HEL-VIE service (VIE used to be my second airport, transiting to many, many destinations)

b) flew Turkish only a few times, were good. Very good for M-East connections (I wouldn't venture as far as flying intercontinentl with them, due to the location of IST, mainly) But who knows?

c) I don't really get this obsession with food on s/h. I don't eat on trains or buses, why should I eat on a 1-2 hour flight? Especially when the food quality is what it is on most airlines. Usually I just say when flying Y and seeing those horrendous sandwiches "just a coffee please"

d) Estonian is back on the HEL-TLL route ^ And of course you can't beat Copterline for fun and fast pre-flight security. Only thing is that HEL is 15 mins away, while HEN* is at least an hour in the morning.

* yes, the Hernesaari barrack has its own IATA code :)

As for SK - the grass is always greener on the other side :) But they have 100% earning on all booking classes on own metal, so a big ^ If you're not aiming specifically for AY Gold, than it's quite possible to have both SK EBG AND OW Sapphire (BAEC comes to mind, but AB can be worth a deeper look)

Do you really think that ticket prices would go down in that case? For a substantial price reduction, like a good chance of getting BUD-HEL-BUD in 150 EUR (from the current 250-300 EUR level) if purchased well in advance, I would certainly trade at least a part of the service. But I doubt that such a decrease in price would happen, especially where there is little or zero competition (like the BUD market).

I am not sure, all I know is that AY management have said they believe that low cost is the only model that can work in euro traffic. To me that means that they have decided to compete primarily with low prices, and then maybe find some other factor that can differentiate them from the rest of the pack. And I think that is exactly what we are seeing now - they are looking to find a concept that can work.



...
b) flew Turkish only a few times, were good. Very good for M-East connections (I wouldn't venture as far as flying intercontinentl with them, due to the location of IST, mainly) But who knows?

c) I don't really get this obsession with food on s/h. I don't eat on trains or buses, why should I eat on a 1-2 hour flight? Especially when the food quality is what it is on most airlines. Usually I just say when flying Y and seeing those horrendous sandwiches "just a coffee please"

...


The trouble with IST is not the location but the traffic situation IMO. For the asian LH connections, there is often a ≈5 hours layover planned to accommodate for the delay of incoming planes. I do like their LH, but the SH and connection is nothing to write home about. For example; It takes 12 hours to get to HKG from sweden on AY. If going TK, you are just taking off from IST after 12 hours...


Regarding the food on SH, I am among the obsessive... Probably because I find SH travel soooo boring. I need to have something to do. I spend at least half an hour to deal with Lufthansas sillly sausage and cold potato-salad (about 100g of food I guess)

c) I don't really get this obsession with food on s/h. I don't eat on trains or buses, why should I eat on a 1-2 hour flight? Especially when the food quality is what it is on most airlines. Usually I just say when flying Y and seeing those horrendous sandwiches "just a coffee please"

I have two reasons for this:

The overall travel time is much longer in case of a 2 hour flight than in case of a 2 hour train journey. I can get out from my bed 45 minutes before my train departs, leave my house 25 later and still catch the train pretty much surely. The station of arrival is probably closer to your final destination than an airport of arrival. So while a 2 hour train journey is mostly part of a 3 hour total journey time, a 2 hour flight means an at least 5 hour long journey in most cases.

The security rules prevent from taking my regular drinks post security (where you may also spend quite some time before the scheduled departure). Security and safety (i.e. placement of luggage for t/o and landing) rules and hand luggage restrictions make it considerably harder to use my regular luggage for a day of rail travel (a medium sized backpack filled with an iPad and a MacBook + a small-to-medium sized sidepack filled with food and drinks) for a flight.

I am not sure, all I know is that AY management have said they believe that low cost is the only model that can work in euro traffic. To me that means that they have decided to compete primarily with low prices, and then maybe find some other factor that can differentiate them from the rest of the pack. And I think that is exactly what we are seeing now - they are looking to find a concept that can work.

I really hope that they can find one that works.

Regarding the food on SH, I am among the obsessive... Probably because I find SH travel soooo boring. I need to have something to do. I spend at least half an hour to deal with Lufthansas sillly sausage and cold potato-salad (about 100g of food I guess)

Oh yes, this one I left out, but also a very important factor for me too.

Btw, why punish passengers going to Manchester especially? It's one of the best longhaul markets for AY AFAIK.
My guess is that its because its one of the longer E190 routes, and they are testing the cold-C-meal thing there, as they want to get rid of the ovens on the E-jets.

Personally, I'm not going to cry over that crappy sandwich in Y, but the drinks going from free to for-sale would definitely be a big minus.

My guess is that its because its one of the longer E190 routes, and they are testing the cold-C-meal thing there, as they want to get rid of the ovens on the E-jets.

Personally, I'm not going to cry over that crappy sandwich in Y, but the drinks going from free to for-sale would definitely be a big minus.

Any idea why they want to remove the ovens?

Ovens can be replaced with passengers :)

Ovens can be replaced with passengers :)

Seriously? :) I have no idea how much room removing the ovens might spare?

Or are they just going for some weight savings?

The cheapest C class prices between Helsinki and Manchester are 1500 €, so no one buys them. Lower the prices to 700 € and I can think of that if the service is good and I need the miles.

In June there are only few days when you can find Y class tickets on AY for 297 €, some combinations are offered for 347/395 €. 495/500 +/ even 695€ appear quite often when you look at www.finnair.com. And these examples are the lowest bookable prices for the day which are shown by their booking engine. It seems that the passengers flying point-to-point pay the highest prices and get the lousiest service and Asian connecting passengers pay almost nothing for the HEL-MAN leg and get better service.

Not offering free soft-drinks and coffee/tea is really bad. Even SAS offer free coffee and tea. And SAS sell also Economy Extra for those passengers who appreciate service.

I was in Y on the E90 to MAN yesterday. This is how the concept works in practice:

You pay for everything. Water is 2€, cheaper than at HEL Duty Free Shop.

There are several cold food options, such as a bagel, a cheese platter, a cold cuts platter etc. The menu card presents these quite nicely on real tableware, but in reality they come in a plastic throw-away case. Prices are ridiculously high. I took the menu with me with the purpose of scanning it and uploading it here but I will be travelling to late June so it's gonna take a while.

I'm not sure about removing the ovens since there are pizzas on the menu, too. OTOH, it wouldn't suprise me if AY tried to sell cold pizzas as an innovation contributing to the environment ;)

The new concept created confusion and negative feedback among the passengers sitting close to me. Also the fact that the old menucard used on European and Domestic flights was still in the seatpocket contributed to the confusion. The flight attendant was very apologetic — it was her first day working with the "trial concept" and she seemed downright embarrassed about the whole system. Sad to see, since AY cabin crew used to be proud of what they do and of their airline. Not so anymore.

The FA also told me that the free service in J also uses throw-away plastic, no tableware and silverware anymore. Glasses are still real in J, however.

There was no announcement nor did I see anyone getting free catering due to Asian connections, but this was a morning flight so there probably weren't any connecting passengers from Asia.

I don't really see how AY thinks they can make a business of offering a low-cost concept with prices of a legacy carrier. This is not going to end well.

The cheapest C class prices between Helsinki and Manchester are 1500 €, so no one buys them. Lower the prices to 700 € and I can think of that if the service is good and I need the miles.

I have often wondered the same. I have never seen Finnair offering any cheaper intra european business class fares unless connecting somewhere else. BA for example has had prices around 700-800 euros to London and various other destinatios in Europe.

Occasionally, Finnair have had some business class sales ex-Helsinki to Bangkok and New York. Would be delighted to see something similar within Europe. Until then I need to stick with "upgrade by points", because I would definitely not pay the normal prices. And if the Manchester concept spreads, probably won't bother to upgrade with points either...:td:

I was in Y on the E90 to MAN yesterday. This is how the concept works in practice:

You pay for everything. Water is 2€, cheaper than at HEL Duty Free Shop.

There are several cold food options, such as a bagel, a cheese platter, a cold cuts platter etc. The menu card presents these quite nicely on real tableware, but in reality they come in a plastic throw-away case. Prices are ridiculously high. I took the menu with me with the purpose of scanning it and uploading it here but I will be travelling to late June so it's gonna take a while.

I'm not sure about removing the ovens since there are pizzas on the menu, too. OTOH, it wouldn't suprise me if AY tried to sell cold pizzas as an innovation contributing to the environment ;)

The new concept created confusion and negative feedback among the passengers sitting close to me. Also the fact that the old menucard used on European and Domestic flights was still in the seatpocket contributed to the confusion. The flight attendant was very apologetic — it was her first day working with the "trial concept" and she seemed downright embarrassed about the whole system. Sad to see, since AY cabin crew used to be proud of what they do and of their airline. Not so anymore.

The FA also told me that the free service in J also uses throw-away plastic, no tableware and silverware anymore. Glasses are still real in J, however.

There was no announcement nor did I see anyone getting free catering due to Asian connections, but this was a morning flight so there probably weren't any connecting passengers from Asia.

I don't really see how AY thinks they can make a business of offering a low-cost concept with prices of a legacy carrier. This is not going to end well.

All this sounds really bad... I can imagine the confusion/frustration when some passengers are getting a free "snack-bag", while the persons next to them need to pay even for water.

And how frustrated are people in J if they get their cold meal in plastic on a rather longish flight like MAN... Especially in E90 which is cramped in J anyway.

It seems that the passengers flying point-to-point pay the highest prices and get the lousiest service and Asian connecting passengers pay almost nothing for the HEL-MAN leg and get better service.


Correct. I had entertained customers from BBK in Lappland. HEL-IVL-HEL - 440+€ in Y Same flights booked on top of BKK-HEL ticket - 110€ extra. The same non-existant service though...

Simply unbelievable stuff in this thread...AY seems to be getting more and more clueless every day...

Simply unbelievable stuff in this thread...AY seems to be getting more and more clueless every day...

Almost sounds like they have hired some strategy consultants formerly in charge of "developing" SK/KF "strategy"...

Simply unbelievable stuff in this thread...AY seems to be getting more and more clueless every day...

They are sending out some very mixed signals... They are loud about improving inflight menus (adding "the best vegetarian meal onboard ever") http://content.screencast.com/users/intuition/folders/Jing/media/d49435c3-4a5e-492a-ad0b-efbe008feb58/00000007.png
at the same time they are talking about removing food services or handing out snack-packs...

When have travelled a few miles down the road from the quality airline, that's for sure...

First to go were the menu cards. They were a nice touch, but of course I could survive without them. But I saved one for nostalgia.
So when we are handed the snack-pack, wrapped in glad pack, and we are paying for the drinks with cash only, we can think back to the good old times... :cool:

http://content.screencast.com/users/intuition/folders/Default/media/c752f26b-4393-4242-bf60-62f4775dac86/IMG_0182.jpg

This is one of the J-menus ex HEL shorthaul euro-traffic about 2 years ago...

Could someone clarify once more that I got this right: If you are traveling

1) MAN-HEL-BKK, in Y you get a snack pack on the MAN-HEL flight

2) MAN-HEL, in Y you get nothing

?

What if you travel MAN-HEL-SVO/SVX or some other city, still nothing?

And, how does it work in practice, do the F/A's check each pax with manifest if they are entitled to the snack pack, or do pax need to show their onward boarding pass to get this treat?

Oh boy, if this is the case, I'm sure there will be lots of bad blood among the pax who are divided to different categories like this! This must be one of the stupidiest decisions by AY management ever, if this will become the new "service concept"!

1 yes
2 yes
3 yes, if connecting non-Asia you get nothing

Btw, the snackpack is nothing to write home about, at least if it is the same one that is offered as a Yumble Bunble snack box on the menu. Chips/crisps, bread sticks, crackers, cheese, nut-fruit bar, truffle, hummus.

Breakfast (cold cuts, cheese, egg slices, roll, youghurt, fruit) is 15€, bagel 7€, coffee 3€, combo of wine and sandwich 9€.

Iberia,

You have a competition on the worst short haul carrier within OneWorld now!

Not offering free soft-drinks and coffee/tea is really bad. Even SAS offer free coffee and tea. And SAS sell also Economy Extra for those passengers who appreciate service.

US Airways tried a $2 USD charge for soft drinks and had to back down within 6 months. None of the competitors followed and it was extremely unpopular.

It looks like if you're thirsty and don't have any Euros, better get ready to drink the lav water :D

US Airways tried a $2 USD charge for soft drinks and had to back down within 6 months. None of the competitors followed and it was extremely unpopular.

It looks like if you're thirsty and don't have any Euros, better get ready to drink the lav water :D

Well, if they are really only trying out this concept, I do hope the response will be overwhelmingly negative.

... Even SAS offer free coffee and tea. And SAS sell also Economy Extra for those passengers who appreciate service.
...

Well, SK only very recently started to serve free coffee and tea on all flights, after 5-6 years without this service. So in that case it was not a quick back down.
The free coffee on SK is a part of the "4Excellence" program... That says it all, IMHO.

The free coffee on SK is a part of the "4Excellence" program... That says it all, IMHO.

So part of what program is AY's "how long can we go?" strategy? :(

AY's "enhancement" program actually goes under the name "Nordic Champion"... :o
One cannot blame the internal propaganda departments of airlines to be out of creative ideas when it comes to naming their programs...

1) MAN-HEL-BKK, in Y you get a snack pack on the MAN-HEL flight

2) MAN-HEL, in Y you get nothing

I wonder how they are going to arrange this on the plane when handing out the meals. Will they look at the passenger list and do it by seat number? That will be really nice that your neighbour is given something and the flight attendant says you don't get it since you're only flying MAN-HEL. How will they handle seat moves? Seems a guaranteed way to annoy passengers.

More sensible (although I dislike the whole concept of food for some but not for others) would be to give a voucher at check in for the passengers bound for Asia. Then the onboard experience is better - on the face of it everyone has to pay but those with a voucher just hand it over. The MAN-HEL passengers will then not feel quite so slighted by the treatment onboard.

I wonder how they are going to arrange this on the plane when handing out the meals. Will they look at the passenger list and do it by seat number? That will be really nice that your neighbour is given something and the flight attendant says you don't get it since you're only flying MAN-HEL.

It could be done this way, like special meals are handled currenty.

How will they handle seat moves?

If the seat move is actually recorded in the system it can be handled. When my companion (LHKE) ordered a special meal on AY last time, his name and seat was printed on a sticker. He changed his seat before OLCI and we could see the previous sticker under the current one.
Of course it does not help with ad-hoc moves that happen after boarding.

Seems a guaranteed way to annoy passengers.

More sensible (although I dislike the whole concept of food for some but not for others) would be to give a voucher at check in for the passengers bound for Asia. Then the onboard experience is better - on the face of it everyone has to pay but those with a voucher just hand it over. The MAN-HEL passengers will then not feel quite so slighted by the treatment onboard.

I agree with you on this.

Check out how TP is doing, for comparison...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-european-frequent-flyer-programs/1350596-tap-seating.html

In the last few years, I have flown MAN-HEL in J some 7 or 8 times en-route to destinations in South East Asia. Mainly HKG. As the long haul typically leaves approaching midnight, I have tended to make the most of the hot meal on the MAN-HEL sector, preferring to get my head down on the ex-HEL sector.

Last week it was MAN-HEL-HKG - in J as usual. A few days before leaving, I was alerted to the "new" service. Oh well, not the end of the world. At least it will be a decent cold meal, I thought, and there always be the chance to top up with a bit of hot pasta in the lounge at HEL. I was wrong on both counts.

The meal out was a salad in a plastic container. No tuna (or fish of any description), no ham (or meat of any description) just tomatoes, a dressing, some indescribable (and tasteless) white balls of something and lots of lettuce. To be fair to Finnair, the lettuce was fresh.

Arrived at HEL (was first off the plane) and made straight to the hot food section. Alas, all gone. Nothing left. Zilch, Nada. Just more salad, cold noodles, fruit and plenty of biscuits.

Made firm complaints to two Finnair staff, left business card and contacted Finnair by their website. That was a week ago. The lack of response is like the hotfood. Completely absent.

Message to Finnair: You offer a good product at a reasonable price. I realise you need to make savings - don't we all - but in my opinion you are making a mistake cutting back this way.

I agree all this sounds absolutely terrible. And touching the J service is a really bad move considering the prices paid. These are the people with most options anyway, they will go away and probably take their loyalty program with them. Also the segregation between Y passengers looks really bad. (I think the voucher idea is best, if it has to be this way though.)

Anyway, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but since the HEL-MAN route affected is flown on E190 as I understood it, could the trial be related to the Flybe deal? In the future this would make more sense if it happened under the Flybe brand? But Finnair damaging themselves like this by doing it under the Finnair brand, oh boy... Does not look good.

I get the need for savings, but going really LCC should not happen under the Finnair brand. And it especially should not touch J service like that, what are people paying in short-haul J for if not service?

Sounds really bad.
I too have found the meals on the feeder flight important because of the late night LH flights and also because of the very short connections in HEL. Even if they offered a full buffet with hot dishes in HEL lounge, I wouldn't feel comfortable with eating during a 40 minute stopover.


...
Message to Finnair: You offer a good product at a reasonable price. I realise you need to make savings - don't we all - but in my opinion you are making a mistake cutting back this way.
^
It is wise to send such a message to AY as this service concept is a try-out. Concerned traveler's eye witness reports may help them to decide in another direction.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but since the HEL-MAN route affected is flown on E190 as I understood it, could the trial be related to the Flybe deal?

The CEO has said that the European flights have to be low-cost with few add-backs to C class passengers. I think this concept will be adapted to all Finnair flights. It is totally ridiculous to say that a 3 h+ flight is a really short flight. It is a surprise that Blue1 seems now to be a high-frill company with free news-papers and water, coffee and tea. Air Berlin with their free snacks and soft-drinks seems to be legacy carrier. Among no-frill airlines AY is worse than Norwegian, because AY does not even provide onboard-internet.

In today's Helsingin Sanomat (To the Editor section) there was a story of one annoyed passenger. I only hope that Business Traveller magazine would do a test flight MAN-HEL.

There is no excuse saying that not offering hot meal in J on a 3hr flight is an enhancement or whatever. It's a joke with AY's current prices they are asking for their J tickets. Then they have another excuse for their late night departures xHEL saying that they have cut back the service so that people can go to sleep.

AY simply does not WANT to serve their customers anymore but they try to sell tickets with prices 2-20x compared to real/honest LCCs, it's simple as that...do they really think they can hold on to J/business pax if their soft product goes down the toilet?

IMHO AY management have lost the ball totally if they think that by cutting back on J catering will save their future...I mean honestly, how stupid can they be?

Flying Cathay Pacific is a good alternative to low cost Ryan...Finnair flights from European destinations to Asia. Well recommended and you'll arrive in much happier mood, especially if in J or F.

Switched to VS/BA/LX a while ago...

IMHO AY management have lost the ball totally if they think that by cutting back on J catering will save their future...I mean honestly, how stupid can they be?

Especially as AY shorthaul J catering has been very, very good and consistent over the years.

Wonder if those Chinese, Indian, Japanese and Korean tycoons really appreciate being served an el cheapo salad in a plastic wrapping when they come off longhauls at HEL, tired and hungry?

IMHO AY management have lost the ball totally if they think that by cutting back on J catering will save their future...I mean honestly, how stupid can they be?

I cannot understand why AY management, like several others, sometimes operate in the world of one variable. They believe that their business model would be sound if fuel prices are at the level of year -1. They are sure the revenue remains the same if the service is cut.

...
The meal out was a salad in a plastic container. No tuna (or fish of any description), no ham (or meat of any description) just tomatoes, a dressing, some indescribable (and tasteless) white balls of something and lots of lettuce. To be fair to Finnair, the lettuce was fresh.

...

Finnair:
The new Finnair Deli menu includes a wide range of items, from French fries and pizza to Scandinavian tapas plates with reindeer mousse and smoked elk. Starbucks’ coffee, tea and hot chocolate complement the beverage selection, while different drink and snack combos are also available.
The Deli menu is available in economy class. In business class, the meal is included in the ticket price. For customers in either class transferring via Helsinki to or from Finnair’s 11 Asian destinations, a complimentary snack box is included in the price of the ticket.

So you didn't even get the "Finnair Deli" concept?!?

So a Y pax can at least buy food from a "wide selection", and the J pax get a few leaves of lettuce included in the ticket price... :td:
MAN, this really is bad....

Did you get any response from AY?

I have been loyal to my national airline for years and most of the time chosen my itinerary to include Finnair flight even if the price has been higher or timetable worse than the alternative one.

I am just a seasoned traveller, but tend to do my trips in premium cabins. After all these "enhancements" already taken place and especially if this new "Manchester concept" spreads, I am ready to say "goodbye Finnair". I've already made my first move by booking my next trip to south-east Asia with Turkish Airlines instead of Finnair.

Of course, I am not the most valuable customer to Finnair, but I am sure there are several other people with similar thoughts. Finnair is surely about to lose great portion of its best paying customers. Very unfortunate.

The cheapest C class prices between Helsinki and Manchester are 1500 €, so no one buys them. Lower the prices to 700 € and I can think of that if the service is good and I need the miles.

Not offering free soft-drinks and coffee/tea is really bad. Even SAS offer free coffee and tea. And SAS sell also Economy Extra for those passengers who appreciate service.

Dirty price for J. LH takes you with 700€ in J.
Is it true that HKG route do not offer free hot meal/ dinner? Just that snack with tea/ coffee?

Is it true that HKG route do not offer free hot meal/ dinner? Just that snack with tea/ coffee?

No. Long-haul services, like HEL-HKG, have not yet been affected by the latest round of service enhancement. They are trying out a new service concept on the HEL-MAN (and v.v.) route, removing most of free catering in Y and seriously degrading J service. The sanck pack is for connecting pax in Y on HEL-MAN and MAN-HEL flights.

Thank you. I was worried as my colleaques are going to book LH flight for AY as I'm going to make it with TK premium class.
I remember reading local newpaper weeks ago, where Y pax feedback was so 'overwhelming' as they didn't had even free glass of water during MAN flight. AY promised to fix that problem :D

Week ago AY send me long email inquiry (I haven't flown with AY for years because of drop of levels). Questions were: what it makes for AY to do that I could use their services and leave Lufthansa and other competitors in both J and Y classes and intra Europe and LH flights? For every question I chose service, free hot meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks), wifi on board. There were also paid options for fast track, lounge! and meals, drinks. I don't think AY will do any improvments for their current product.

Did you get that questionnaire?

No. Long-haul services, like HEL-HKG, have not yet been affected by the latest round of service enhancement. They are trying out a new service concept on the HEL-MAN (and v.v.) route, removing most of free catering in Y and seriously degrading J service. The sanck pack is for connecting pax in Y on HEL-MAN and MAN-HEL flights.

The basic idea, I think, was to offer a broader selection of food, but charge for it. (The "deli-concept"). Done right, this could be a good thing "Cheap ticket - no service, pay extra get quality snack food". That is why I was so surprised to see that they didn't seem to offer food from the deli-concept to mirfield. J seems to have gotten the "expensive ticket crappy food" concept.


...
Week ago AY send me long email inquiry (I haven't flown with AY for years because of drop of levels). Questions were: what it makes for AY to do that I could use their services and leave Lufthansa and other competitors in both J and Y classes and intra Europe and LH flights? For every question I chose service, free hot meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks), wifi on board. There were also paid options for fast track, lounge! and meals, drinks. I don't think AY will do any improvments for their current product.

Did you get that questionnaire?

I have also gotten such a questionnaire (on a web survey page, though). It was interesting, as it was not the standard "index" form every airline does. It was very clearly geared towards "what can we do to attract you", and asking my priorities around many things both hard and soft product (including "fully flat beds", "quality meals" , "family sections in lounge and onboard" et.c et.c )
A very serious take on things I think (even though at some point I felt "don't they have ANY basic idea what attracts people?!?")
Also some questions regarding loyalty, like "do I like to try different airlines and products". Overall interesting and to me a good sign that someone inside AY is trying to get a grip of the situation.

I don't know if they survey randomly or what. My last AY trip was in january, they can surely see that I did HKG on BA in march, but I am not sure that will trigger any "suspicion of disloyalty". (and they can surely not see that I have been having an affair with LH and QR, too :-)

I got the questionnaire too - so it seems that they actually know what they SHOULD be doing (otherwise wouldn't ask) and do exactly the opposite :confused:

As for the "deli concept" - on WAW-HEL I paid 6 € for a run of the mill turkey-cheese rye bread. At WAW I got a hot meal for that at the airport. My advice to AY - save on the fuel you need to transport all those "deli" items to and fro and say simply "eat at the airport before take-off"

I got the questionnary too but I have taken part in so many AY online/offline researches etc. over the years that I've totally given up. They never ever listen to what people are saying and even if you specifically ask for comments/feedback they just do not give rats a** about anything.

To me this is just AY's marketing/PR doing stuff that sits in their bonus or whatever schemes but the management isn't committed to deliver/change anything based on the results. Extremely typical to large corporations in major trouble.

I simply won't bother anymore.

...
To me this is just AY's marketing/PR doing stuff that sits in their bonus or whatever schemes but the management isn't committed to deliver/change anything based on the results. Extremely typical to large corporations in major trouble.
...
Very true. Some marketing schools are teaching "involvement equals loyalty" and that often turns into "let's do a survey so people feel like they are involved".
However, this one was a bit different IMO. Someone put some thought into it, and it looked like something that actually could be a part of a decision making. (Though, that's no guarantee it isn't going directly to the trash anyway...)

In comparison to the BA survey I recently got, which was the typical "quality index survey", where they clearly didn't care about suggestions given.

I got questionare asking how would I rate AY FF program: one rating value and 2 questions.
After that I got an other questionaire which different start. The questionare clearly said if you dont and that you may continue again when ever you want. I did not get it done, actually only first question was answered. Tried to answer it again with respond you have already made it. Called to AY CS and asked them to resend the questionare. Got the wrong 2 times. I have given up.

I have flew now 3,5 m after my period renewed and have 120.000 tier points. This time I will not exceed 150.000 and give point to black hole (or 4 european upgrades that I got last time, was a joke). Will use my unused BA account for points exceeding 150k and then decide how to go on, next year march.

Will use my unused BA account for points exceeding 150k and then decide how to go on, next year march.

Any specific reasons to go for AY Plat? If you don't specifically need AY status (as opposed to OW status), you're much better of on BAEC from day (or TP) 1. I know I am.

However, this one was a bit different IMO. Someone put some thought into it, and it looked like something that actually could be a part of a decision making. (Though, that's no guarantee it isn't going directly to the trash anyway...)
.

Yes, it totally gave me the impression that "we have only so much money to put into product development, so where do you think it would bring the most benefit?" But I have a bad feeling, that it won't ever make past the originating department at a time when all PR spin is put on the "we give you less for more" concepts :td:

The basic idea, I think, was to offer a broader selection of food, but charge for it. (The "deli-concept"). Done right, this could be a good thing "Cheap ticket - no service, pay extra get quality snack food". That is why I was so surprised to see that they didn't seem to offer food from the deli-concept to mirfield. J seems to have gotten the "expensive ticket crappy food" concept.




I have also gotten such a questionnaire (on a web survey page, though). It was interesting, as it was not the standard "index" form every airline does. It was very clearly geared towards "what can we do to attract you", and asking my priorities around many things both hard and soft product (including "fully flat beds", "quality meals" , "family sections in lounge and onboard" et.c et.c )
A very serious take on things I think (even though at some point I felt "don't they have ANY basic idea what attracts people?!?")
Also some questions regarding loyalty, like "do I like to try different airlines and products". Overall interesting and to me a good sign that someone inside AY is trying to get a grip of the situation.

I don't know if they survey randomly or what. My last AY trip was in january, they can surely see that I did HKG on BA in march, but I am not sure that will trigger any "suspicion of disloyalty". (and they can surely not see that I have been having an affair with LH and QR, too :-)

I also received and completed the survey. Very detailed questions about the desirability of different features (true lie-flats on all LHs, for example) and amenities (PJs for night flights). There was an opportunity to rank different features etc. If nothing else, the survey was constructed much better and with more thought than any other airline survey I remember. However, there was no possibility to leave open comments.

In other news, third week of SPBankers' US vacation is starting. I am typing (well, tapping) this in Doubletree Times Square. Usually "upgrades" to higher floors are nothing, but this time my status lifted us to the top floor, and the views from the 43rd are great!

Yes, it totally gave me the impression that "we have only so much money to put into product development, so where do you think it would bring the most benefit?"
...

That was my take aswell.
It mustn't be bad though. Few companies today can do everything on the wish list, so finding what is "most bang for the buck" seems wise.

We may all have grown a bit cynical (I know I have) so no big hopes for the product development being new seats in J and stellar meal services, which was my answer for turning into an attractive airline.
I try to keep at least a half-positive view on things, otherwise I'm afraid I get so sad about the "enhancements" of the industry I might stop flying on the whole :(

I also received and completed the survey. Very detailed questions about the desirability of different features (true lie-flats on all LHs, for example) and amenities (PJs for night flights). There was an opportunity to rank different features etc. If nothing else, the survey was constructed much better and with more thought than any other airline survey I remember. However, there was no possibility to leave open comments.

In other news, third week of SPBankers' US vacation is starting. I am typing (well, tapping) this in Doubletree Times Square. Usually "upgrades" to higher floors are nothing, but this time my status lifted us to the top floor, and the views from the 43rd are great!

Finally some good news ;)
The big question is, do they offer en-suite sauna?

Finally some good news ;)
The big question is, do they offer en-suite sauna?

That is not the issue... which is wheather to have smoke sauna, steam sauna, traditional ordinary stone sauna, turkish sauna, removable party sauna with removable stones... etc. AND cold refreshing water available: very cold +4 degrees centigrates, finnish lake temperature +16-21 if your lucky etc... and how about after sauna procedures...
Avoiding more discussions on how airlines should arrange the facilities for saunas we could arrange FF meetings around real sauna ideas....

I guess with going low-cost, the onboard sauna is also out

Finnairs business-reisende kan kaste klærne

http://www.dn.no/forsiden/naringsliv/article1870254.ece

:D

:D:D:D
I was commenting SPBankers hotel upgrade, but this is even better (sauna on 43.th floor vs sauna on 11000 m). We all love a sauna with a view, right? :cool:
"It is a great way of using the heat from the engines" :p Love that one!

It is clear that a Finland-DO should contain a sauna-session, even if one don't have to take it to the extremes ( IIRC Finland still holds the world record in hottest sauna. Also in sauna-pulling -- mount wheels on your sauna, put your buddies inside and pull it the furthest distance). ;)

We all love a sauna with a view, right?

Especially in the see-through plane
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2003052/Airbus-unveil-transparent-plane-flying-come-2050.html

Finally some good news ;)
The big question is, do they offer en-suite sauna?

No saunas here. :( ;)

Saunas on planes... Now there's a way to make your airline different!

AY is now selling some exit seats for money - how low cost modell is that?

I bought a short haul Y ticket yesterday, went to seat selection, selected the exit seats and only later did I realize that I was hit by a 8€ charge for one of them. There might have been a notice somewhere that the seat is for money, but didn't see it :(

AY is now selling some exit seats for money - how low cost modell is that?

I bought a short haul Y ticket yesterday, went to seat selection, selected the exit seats and only later did I realize that I was hit by a 8€ charge for one of them. There might have been a notice somewhere that the seat is for money, but didn't see it :(

8€ looks to me like the "ordinary" fee for seat selection, i.e. not for the specific seat. Did you select seats for someone else, or your bunch of shiny metal cards did not help waiving the fee? Or was it really a specific fee for exit row?

It is supposed to look like this:
(notice that the Silver benefit is not valid for exit row)


Add-on cost for pre reserving seat
(seat selection at check-in free of charge)


No status AY Silver AY plat, gold,
OW Emerald, Sapphire
or Y, B, H, X booking class
Domestic, Scandinavia, Baltics,
Any seat in Y 6 € 3 € Free

Europe, any seat in Y 8 € 4 € Free

LongHaul, exit row Y 60 € 60 € Free*

LongHaul, Front row (bulk h.) 40 € 20 € Free*

LongHaul, any other Y-seat 20 € 10 € Free

Any seat in J Free Free Free


*Booking classes Y, B, H, X are the odd fishes. Seat selection of "other seat"
is free, but not exit row or bulkhead

Come to think of it, I highly doubt that AY will make much/any money on this? My guess is that people who are familiar with the benefits of being seated in exit row on a longhaul flight already have some status on some airline. Those exit rows will quickly be snagged up by status holders for free.

8€ looks to me like the "ordinary" fee for seat selection, i.e. not for the specific seat. Did you select seats for someone else, or your bunch of shiny metal cards did not help waiving the fee? Or was it really a specific fee for exit row?

Booking fow someone else (no status) and for exit seat. Interestingly, only one of the two exit seats incurred the charge. (better seat, to be sure, no seat at all in front of it)

Come to think of it there was a remark somewhere along the lines of "seat selection is just preference, final seat is allocated at check-in, except for paid for seats"

This might have been there for a while but never had come across it

Come to think of it there was a remark somewhere along the lines of "seat selection is just preference, final seat is allocated at check-in, except for paid for seats"
...

I guess they needed to add that, as otherwise you would be paying for air. I think they still will juggle you around for op. reasons, but in that case they need to at least refund. If you were only paying for stating your preference, then...

Booking fow someone else (no status) and for exit seat. Interestingly, only one of the two exit seats incurred the charge. (better seat, to be sure, no seat at all in front of it)
...

All the seats that are coloured in the seat selection tool are supposed to come with an charge, I'll guess.
No silver card involved (= 2 times 4€)?
Or you were logged in yourself, and a glitch in the system let you have the first seat selected free of charge?

All the seats that are coloured in the seat selection tool are supposed to come with an charge, I'll guess.
No silver card involved (= 2 times 4€)?
Or you were logged in yourself, and a glitch in the system let you have the first seat selected free of charge?

No silver involved, it'd been Gold (mine) or nothing (pax) :)

I guess it could be that the exit seat on one leg is actually nothing out of ordinary, whereas the paid leg is 22A, with no 21A in front of it.

Whatever - needs to look at this more carefully in the future.

Having enjoyed? the enhanced meal on sunday and "looking forward" to another today might i add my two penneth worth. The salad in a plastic bowl is awful. I will be giving feedback! Usually there are no more than 4 or 5 pax in J on the MAN HEL leg so its down to pennies Finnair. I would rather have food than a newspaper. ( available i see to purchase in Y). Please un enhance this route in October

Having enjoyed? the enhanced meal on sunday and "looking forward" to another today might i add my two penneth worth. The salad in a plastic bowl is awful. I will be giving feedback! Usually there are no more than 4 or 5 pax in J on the MAN HEL leg so its down to pennies Finnair. I would rather have food than a newspaper. ( available i see to purchase in Y). Please un enhance this route in October

I really feel everybody flying that route should protest, preferably in writing, to let AY know how the pax feel.

In the lounge at HEL, with the now enhanced wireless . Actually the airport is dead and the wireless good for a change. I have the card of the appropriate department and will complain shortly. The lady on the front desk says that they have had no end of complaints. But it at least means that on a trip to TLL in the next week or so i may as well book in Y and save a lot of money.

In the lounge at HEL, with the now enhanced wireless . Actually the airport is dead and the wireless good for a change. I have the card of the appropriate department and will complain shortly. The lady on the front desk says that they have had no end of complaints. But it at least means that on a trip to TLL in the next week or so i may as well book in Y and save a lot of money.

If you fly to TLL ex-HEL you can save a bunch by ignoring AY and booking on OV. (about half the price) Or if you want to have some fun, take the chopper!

So you didn't even get the "Finnair Deli" concept?!?

So a Y pax can at least buy food from a "wide selection", and the J pax get a few leaves of lettuce included in the ticket price... :td:
MAN, this really is bad....

Did you get any response from AY?

Absolutely right Intuition. Y passengers get a choice, albeit on a paid for basis. J pasengers get a take it or leave it "plastic" salad, because the cost of the meal is included in the ticket price.

I finally received a reply on 3rd July. Here it is :

Dear XXXXXX

Thank you for your feedback. We highly value your opinion about meal services on your flight 5th June AY938 Manchester-Helsinki.

The Deli menu is available in economy class. In business class, the meal is included in the ticket price. For customers in either class transferring via Helsinki to or from Finnair’s 11 Asian destinations, a complimentary snack box is included in the price of the ticket.

Based on customer feedback and our experience, many of our customers would like to have more freedom of choice on what they eat on these kinds of short flights. With this trial, we hope to gather information about customer preferences and views on buy on board selection, in order to be able to further develop our service offering.

The five month trial takes place on Finnair’s flights between Manchester and Helsinki during June – October 2012. Finnair flies from Manchester to Helsinki 14 times a week.

As an apology for the lack of meal service in our lounge at Helsinki please accept our 20 EUR gift voucher. Voucher can be used for purchases onboard Finnair operated flights and Finnair Shop at Helsinki airport. Please inform us your mailing address for the voucher.

Sincerely,

Finnair Plc
Customer Relations


I am going to respond by suggesting Finnair Management read this thread : -

Thank you for your reply and your offer of a 20 EUR voucher. My address is XXXXXXXX

You mention in your reply that the change has been made in response to customer feedback. As a company that clearly listens to customers, and acts upon their views, can I suggest that you follow this link :

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/finnair-plus/1352179-finnair-going-low-cost-6.html#post18884773

Regards,

XXXXXXXXX

This is just absurd. And claiming
Based on customer feedback and our experience, many of our customers would like to have more freedom of choice on what they eat on these kinds of short flights.
when they instead present a low quality, no choice meal to their business class passenger.
I know it is just a copy&paste answer, but did they think even 2 seconds before sending that reply?!?

To me this indicates

a) that they will go one-class on many european routes. No need to care about J-pax anymore.

b) they believe that their offer on longhaul has such great value, that connecting J pax won't care if the feeder flight has crappy service and still pay the same and stay loyal


It is true that HEL offers a good value when it comes to short total travel time for northern asia. For me that is one of the deciding factors. Service is another, and for me, I value the service and feel from checkin until I arrive at destination. Crappy departure lounge will affect that feeling. Crappy service on feeder flight will too. And so on.

In my mind, quite a few J-pax have this line of thought, regardless of flying for business or pleasure. It is not just about getting there or even the price we pay for getting there. We go "there" several times a year, some of us several times a month. Some of us just for a day or two. To be content with this, the way we go there will matter greatly. I didn't think AY could afford to risk this.

But what do I know. Maybe AY can make a profit by flying nordic tourists to BKK in no-service econ classes. There is hardly no competition at all in that segment, right? :rolleyes:

It is true that HEL offers a good value when it comes to short total travel time for northern asia. For me that is one of the deciding factors.

You being ex-CPH, the direct SK flight to NRT or PEK is surely a shorter option - you actually fly over HEL without landing, transferring, etc. Yes, I know SK sucks on the blood of their home customer base just as AY does with theirs ;)

Re - freedom of choice. Clearly you aren't in the AY Finnish corporate mindset. C pax do have a freedom of choice - take it or leave it. :td: Unfortunately for AY, the same pax have the same choice when it comes booking tickets on AY - and many of us take the second choice.

Haha, the take it or leave it choice is common these days, I guess :D
Yeah, I know, I am quite alone on the FT AY ship. I guess it is me and Laajo left...

For NRT I'd love to go directly, ie SK. What has kept me going via HEL and AY is due to my "stake" in AY+ (ey! a loyalty program that works?!? :) and the fact that via HEL is almost as quick. SK to NRT is about 11,5 hours, AY 12,5.

As OW emerald gives med first lounges, and *G doesn't, that is decisive. So I am a bit negative towards *A already because of that, and as SK is in more trouble than AY and serves even fewer destinations, i have not chosen them for preferred carrier. (Nowadays, when TK serves a few destinations I like, *A looks a bit better to me. TK is nice service, but hopeless when it comes to irrops or even being on time)

Haha, the take it or leave it choice is common these days, I guess :D
Yeah, I know, I am quite alone on the FT AY ship. I guess it is me and Laajo left...

Hey, what am I then?!? Chopped liver? Next AY flight tomorrow HEL-SVO, even upgraded to biz with 3500 points, hope to get something reasonable to eat so I don't have to spend $$$ to dine in Moscow. And in the IC the minibar is free, so I save at least two beers that way. Frugal traveler, that's me. :p

Ah yes, the frugal way. Well known amongst bankers ;)

On the serious side, I'm sorry. Some days it seems everyone has left for BA et.c. I don't blame them, it just feels lonely.

Back in topic, I just can't get my head around this thing with trashing the service on feeder traffic. OK, I get the money saving part, but why do they insist on doing it under the Finnair brand? Because as they utter the words "the look and feel of outsourced feeder traffic will remain" they must start making up these marketing slogans : "customers have asked for more flexibility, so that is why we reduce the J-pax meal to a sallad" or "we now charge €60 for seat selection, not because we need money but because it will give our customers peace of mind"

A much more honest approach would be:
"We need our euro-traffic to be dirt-cheap. We cannot do that ourselves. That is why we have outsourced everything to a partner that can. There will be no AY+-points, no food, no service and no lounges. There will be fees charged for bags, seats, printed BPs, et.c
We will remove any trace of AY brand from the euro-traffic, as this is nothing we like to be associated with, but since it is the only thing customers are willing to pay for, this is what we need to do"

I'd prefer if they came out and said honestly what the plans are, instead of the B/S phrases that are produced now.

But as WilcoRoger said, I clearly can't understand the AY corporate mindset.

OK, I get the money saving part, but why do they insist on doing it under the Finnair brand? [/I]

But as WilcoRoger said, I clearly can't understand the AY corporate mindset.

Well, I, for one don't get it.

If AY loses just one (1) paying C customer on the MAN route, how many crappy meals does it equals to in savings? 1 C ticket HEL-MAN-HEL ca. 800€ (low estimate) Cost difference of "traditional" C meal vs "new concept" = 4€ (guesstimate)

So they need at least 200 paying C pax to make up in the meal savings side for the one C pax who decided to "stuff'em" And this is just one (1) passenger deciding to NOT fly AY once (1x)

I rest my case.

(and yes, you clearly don't get the AY corp mindset - but neither do I)

A much more honest approach would be:
[I]"We need our euro-traffic to be dirt-cheap. We cannot do that ourselves. That is why we have outsourced everything to a partner that can. There will be no AY+-points, no food, no service and no lounges. There will be fees charged for bags, seats, printed BPs, et.c


And that's when they would have to kiss goodbye to their most lucrative customers - connecting C pax to/fro Asia.

Yeah, I guess it is beyond us all. :cool:

But I do believe that people rarely do stupid stuff out of plain stupidity. Usually there is some reasoning behind any decision, and it is this reasoning my structured mind is struggling to find.

Maybe C-pax volumes are down, and they actually can make more money in oneclass? We've all seen how they've put the large 330's on leisure and price competitive routes. I guess we'll never know.

Yes, an honest approach would be risky. But I think that the nordic and large part of the asian) market values honesty over slick salesmanship. It may be my idealized view of the world, though. I just personally find it loathing to be told that they offer me a salad instead of a hot meal because I asked for flexibility. To me that is not only lying, but it is an insult.

OK, rant over for me. I am off to southeast asia on QR in 1,5 hour. Am very excited about this, as EK/EH/QR is a coming thing, and I will closely jot down my experience for future reference. QR or EH may join OW and EK may partner up with QF (leaving OW after break up with BA). We may soon have a whole different flying world.

Could this ne something about the Finnish mindset? I remember wondering why Nokia was pushing 79 euro handsets - at the same time screwing their suppliers and employees - while I was used to pay 500 as long as they were the best on market.

QR or EH may join OW

That'll be the day! :)

Rumors has it BA will partner up with or even sponsor one of the gulf carriers for OW during 2012...

Rumors has it BA will partner up with or even sponsor one of the gulf carriers for OW during 2012...

EY being considered by some to be better positioned than the rest of the Gulf carriers.

Sorry, if this has been posted before, but this is the link for the menu (http://media.finnair.com/files/pdf/finnair_deli_menu.pdf). I think that the prices are extremely high. Usually, the inflight prices are lower than in the duty-free shops, but AY has now changed that. A small bottle of champagne cost 10 €, a lot more than at Finnair airport shops. Can I complain if the rather good-looking Scandinavian tapas plate is not served on a porcelain plate. 15 € for that is pricey. I want a peace of mind and forget of paying 3 € for a cup of tea. Is Finnair really sure that the Asian connecting passengers love bread sticks, crackers and chips. I always thought that the Asian passengers do not like bread. No more Finnair flights for me if this concept will be the standard service. I can cope with payed pre-ordered hot meals like Air Berlin offers, if the basic service (rolls and drinks) are free of charge.

For business class, I rather pay 400 - 800 € for BA and LH for a better C class product with the exception of the poor extended breakfast by BA. For Y class even KL offers better value.

<removed>

The Y snack menu looks poor in quality and especially in quantity. Fortunately there still are decent lounges to grab a bite and sip before intra-EU AY-flights. I would very much prefer LCC/leisure carrier type pre-paid proper warm meals and drinks at least on the longer 3 to 4 hour flights early in the morning or late evening.

I have just returned from Milan and had the same meat balls in J class for the 5th time in 6 months! The meal itself is quite okay, but some variation would be welcome.

I wonder how often Finnair changes their business class menus. Or have they perhaps decided to halt any changes in catering until Manchester trial can be implemented to all routes.

I have just returned from Milan and had the same meat balls in J class for the 5th time in 6 months! The meal itself is quite okay, but some variation would be welcome.

I wonder how often Finnair changes their business class menus. Or have they perhaps decided to halt any changes in catering until Manchester trial can be implemented to all routes.

Well, the offerings obviously differ by routes, but last week HEL-SVO I had some really nice beef stroganoff. Clos des Miran Côtes du Rhône Village Visan complimented it quite nicely. So nicely that I had two!

I mostly do BRU-HEL on AY in J, and I can tell you that the offerings do rotate most of the times, and a repeat of the same meal doesn't really bother me as I really enjoy most of them anyways. ;)

(Except the terrible special summer-meal they were serving last year.) :td:

I mostly do BRU-HEL on AY in J, and I can tell you that the offerings do rotate most of the times,

I do a lot of TXL-HEL-BKK trips in J on AY, and on the short leg there is a kind of rotation, but on the longhaul the food options are exactly the same for over 12 months now (both directions :td:).

Sorry, if this has been posted before, but this is the link for the menu (http://media.finnair.com/files/pdf/finnair_deli_menu.pdf). I think that the prices are extremely high. Usually, the inflight prices are lower than in the duty-free shops, but AY has now changed that. A small bottle of champagne cost 10 €, a lot more than at Finnair airport shops. Can I complain if the rather good-looking Scandinavian tapas plate is not served on a porcelain plate. 15 € for that is pricey. I want a peace of mind and forget of paying 3 € for a cup of tea.

That looks like the SAS BoB menu, except, AY shows the goods plated on porcelain, SAS is honest enough to show it in the actual plastic. OS has introduced a Do&Co ala cart that is pricey but really delivers. The portions are big and its plated on real china: http://www.austrian.com/Info/OnBoard/DoCoAlaCarte.aspx?sc_lang=en&cc=FI

Really sad to see AY go that route. Just completed booking our trip to KEM to visit my inlaws over xmas. We are paying 1350€ for 2 adults and two kids MUC-HEL-KEM vv with a forced overnight in HEL (ie I have to make a100€ donation to the HEL Hilton) on the way out and I noticed that seat assignments are not possible when I worked it out in Amadeus. Yesterday I looked at the booking on AY.com to see if I can assign seats and discovered the absolutely stupid 8€ charge. I can understand the concept for longhaul (copying BA) but for a regional flight? Are you kidding me?

They are infact copying Norwegian, that charges 10EUR for shorthaul seats.

Yesterday I looked at the booking on AY.com to see if I can assign seats and discovered the absolutely stupid 8€ charge. I can understand the concept for longhaul (copying BA) but for a regional flight? Are you kidding me?

I don't want want to be a Finnair apologizer because I hate the new concept and
AY used to be really good. But Lufthansa does not allow to reserve a seat in advance on short hauls flights (Sens and Hons excluded), not even a payed seat reservation is possible. The same applies to SAS group. And KLM (at least in the past).

I don't want want to be a Finnair apologizer because I hate the new concept and
AY used to be really good. But Lufthansa does not allow to reserve a seat in advance on short hauls flights (Sens and Hons excluded), not even a payed seat reservation is possible. The same applies to SAS group. And KLM (at least in the past).

Same with BA (unless you have status) and they charge 10 € and up for domestic and European flights..... I do not like to pay for seating, but I'll rather pay than get stuck for instance in a middle seat....

Oliver, 1350 € for 4 people doesn't seem all that much for that route....? Of course 64 € for seat assignment is money, but this is the way it tends to be for most European carriers if you do not have status. And as nordic says, with many you cannot do it even with money....

Oliver, 1350 € for 4 people doesn't seem all that much for that route....? Of course 64 € for seat assignment is money, but this is the way it tends to be for most European carriers if you do not have status. And as nordic says, with many you cannot do it even with money....

Well, I'm OK with the concept of not charging for seats and not offering to assign them in advance. Some elites may get a shot at blocking some seats, but that is OK.

Flew BRU-HEL in J yesterday evening. I was shocked to notice that they apparently do not serve the main course on proper china anymore - it looked like a Y meal back in the days when you got a warm meal in Y, only the portion was now even smaller than that! Not good, not good at all.

The bulgogi itself was good, nothing to complain about it, but this truly makes me wonder where AY is going in terms of service.

Some airlines still do it the old fashioned way: flew on Sunday from Lisbon to Helsinki on TAP (=Star Alliance, but this flt also AY codeshared) and even being a night flight (scheduled dep. at 22.05) they serve a full hot meal with appetizer, main course, bread, crackers, cheese, dessert, wine.... and with metal cutlery. On the way to Lisbon (dep. from HEL at 05.35) they serve a full hot breakfast.

Some airlines still do it the old fashioned way: flew on Sunday from Lisbon to Helsinki on TAP (=Star Alliance, but this flt also AY codeshared) and even being a night flight (scheduled dep. at 22.05) they serve a full hot meal with appetizer, main course, bread, crackers, cheese, dessert, wine.... and with metal cutlery. On the way to Lisbon (dep. from HEL at 05.35) they serve a full hot breakfast.Turkish airlines is another such case, nuts and a G&T, menus with two choices are handed out, wine, a nice desert ... And this in Y!

Some airlines still do it the old fashioned way: flew on Sunday from Lisbon to Helsinki on TAP (=Star Alliance, but this flt also AY codeshared) and even being a night flight (scheduled dep. at 22.05) they serve a full hot meal with appetizer, main course, bread, crackers, cheese, dessert, wine.... and with metal cutlery. On the way to Lisbon (dep. from HEL at 05.35) they serve a full hot breakfast.

Oh, forgot to say, this was Y

I did HEL-MAN-HEL in Y a couple of weeks ago, and was a bit... surprised by the Deli concept. No mention that I could see was made of this during booking or at check-in and the first I learned of it was the announcement at the start of service. I chose the direct MAN flight for convenience but the price of going via LHR with BA wasn't much more expensive and would have yielded more TPs (and a tiny chance of an opup - or possibly a POUG, though I don't think BA do POUG except on direct flights).

So, anyway, en route with a presentation to write on my laptop, the thing I needed more than anything else was coffee. However there was no way I was going to pay three euros for Starbucks instant rubbish; call me strange but I rather enjoy the free brown sludge one normally gets! Having said that I think the Deli concept might just work if they offered special meal options (the Finnair vegan pasta salad is quite good!) and included tea, coffee and soft drinks.

If Finnair want to go down the LCC buy-on-board route, they should learn something from Blue1; however if they want to retain my business they should dump this whole idea sharpish.

I sent in a complaint and got a reply very similar to mirfield's (albeit tailored to the victims of the Deli concept down the back). I'm not sure I'll be going on AY again to find out the result, though - whether it is cheap Y for work or cheap J for pleasure, going with BA is always going to win for me if AY keep pinching pennies.

If Finnair want to go down the LCC buy-on-board route, they should learn something from Blue1; however if they want to retain my business they should dump this whole idea sharpish.

Haven't KF reintroduced free coffee, etc a while back? SK definitely did.

going with BA is always going to win for me if AY keep pinching pennies.

No brainer, really - except when going via LHR makes a too long detour.

Haven't KF reintroduced free coffee, etc a while back? SK definitely did.

Free tea and coffee, yes. And actually, obviously my mind is playing tricks with me because KF's buy-on-board menu (http://www.blue1.com/Tiedostot/Palvelut/Blue1_inflight_menu_summer_2012.pdf) isn't as wide-ranging as I remember it from EDI-HEL in June. I guess I am thinking of AC's offering (http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/onboard/dining/na/onboard/index.html) which I tried on SEA-YYZ back in March.

(Going off topic here: that 4 hour SEA-YYZ trip shows what a long thin intra-European AY flight might look like in an ideal world: E190, but with decent AVOD; buy-on-board, but with a good range of snacks and prices. Of course, the market here is rather different.)

...
We are analysing some new service concepts, and from 1 June to 31 October on routes between Helsinki and Manchester ...



Now we are not that far away from the end of the "test-run".
In my mind, when you do such a test-run, you already have prepared for a full roll out of the concept. You are unsure about some parameters, like pricing or selection, but the basis of the concept is pretty much set. Thus, we will soon see an announcement of a new pan-europe service concept?

Or is "analysing" to be interpreted as more of an blank sheet try out ("we are picking ideas from the black hat and analyse how the market reacts")

If this Lufthansa plan goes forward, there will be just more pressure on Finnair to do something similar:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/17/uk-lufthansa-strategy-idUSLNE88G00X20120917

"(Reuters) - Lufthansa management will present a strategy update to the supervisory board on Wednesday including plans for a new European low-cost airline, WirtschaftsWoche said in an advance extract of its Monday edition."

Could we say that life, as we know it, will soon be over. :( ;)

If this Lufthansa plan goes forward, there will be just more pressure on Finnair to do something similar:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/17/uk-lufthansa-strategy-idUSLNE88G00X20120917

"(Reuters) - Lufthansa management will present a strategy update to the supervisory board on Wednesday including plans for a new European low-cost airline, WirtschaftsWoche said in an advance extract of its Monday edition."

Well, this is exactly what Finnair have said they wanted to do, and to do it together with others. And that "others" were not interested and the idea is put on hold. Either LH wasn't among those "others" or LH liked the idea but wanted to do it just for themselves.

Still, AY and LH have done a few deals together lately, who knows...:confused:

AF is looking to move its A32S operation to Transavia, LH to direct4U... methinks this is a consultant like Oliver Wyman doing the rounds selling a concept on how legacy airlines can supposedly revive their regional operations in the face of LCC pressure :)

Well, this is exactly what Finnair have said they wanted to do, and to do it together with others.

With the difference that while AY was looking for a "partner" to do the heavy lifting, LH has big enough guns to start its own LCC.

Roughly the same... LH is setting up a subsidiary to run the regional fleet, AY also wants to move aircraft and crew to another company.

I think AY was looking to do some "europe-alliance" for this - not just move the fleet to another company. Working together with other strategic partners could get economy of scales, which would be better.

I think LH is only interested in constructing a LCC that will feed their own hubs.

I think AY was looking to do some "europe-alliance" for this - not just move the fleet to another company.

So what did they do with FC and the E190 fleet? @:-)

So what did they do with FC and the E190 fleet? @:-)

They were/are transferred to FlyBE Nordic which operates on wetlease-basis for Finnair and has some own routes. The new European partner is for A32x fleet.

They were/are transferred to FlyBE Nordic which operates on wetlease-basis for Finnair and has some own routes. The new European partner is for A32x fleet.

I know, that is why I suspect AY will have no problems doing a deal similar to the E19x with the A32S fleet.

I know, that is why I suspect AY will have no problems doing a deal similar to the E19x with the A32S fleet.

Well, CEO is saying that they didn't succeed in that within the time frame they had indicated earlier "because of changes in the European aviation industry."

(Going off topic here: that 4 hour SEA-YYZ trip shows what a long thin intra-European AY flight might look like in an ideal world: E190, but with decent AVOD; buy-on-board, but with a good range of snacks and prices. Of course, the market here is rather different.)

That flight must be very close to the limit of an E190. ?

That flight must be very close to the limit of an E190. ?

AC do indeed fly the E190AR. Otherwise they would be going on fumes the last part of that trip.

I think LH is only interested in constructing a LCC that will feed their own hubs.

LH said they will keep lufthansa mainline for european flights to FRA/MUC and have the subsidiary airline for other routes not serving those hubs. So keeping a decent airline to feed into long haul flights from FRA/MUC.

This makes perfect sense. One reason I fly BA a lot is that the HEL-LHR flight is quite pleasant with good seats and legroom. I switched most of my long haul flights from LH to BA because I hated the NEK (ultra thin) seats that I would have to put up with for the flight HEL-FRA or HEL-MUC.

Sq is too.

On a side note: According to news agency Six, DY have decided that they will in the future hire pilots as employees and pay taxes for them, instead of the current regime. So no more sending anonymous 8000€ to a bank account of choice in tax havens.

The other day, the city of Västerås said they are getting tired of putting tax money into an airport with a fake name so that FR can claim they are flying on Stockholm without paying any landing fees.

Maybe it is getting a tiny bit easier for legacy airlines to compete in scandinavia.