Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - TSA and foreigners.!

I would like to know ( being swedish). How far TSA would go if you dont understand them as a foreigen/tourist?!

Can the abuse. Sure I get they can and would.

But how far can they TSA push if they person have no clue what they are saying?

It really bugs me since my family/friends are swedish.

Sure some speak more than others.

So far I cant get really anybody over here to vistit cause they are afraid of TSA. And they sure dont want their privates to be groped. Or their kids to be be groped.
Any one?

This has become a problem in my family . BIG TIMES.

But how far can they TSA push if they person have no clue what they are saying?

I'm an American citizen, and English is my primary language - and I still can't understand half of them because they're either shouting, or they don't speak anything I'd call "English" in the first place.

The process is easy as long as you act like a sheep and follow the herd blindly. Assuming you want to preserve some dignity, you may have some issues. I suggest that you carry a card that states:

"I do not understand English. Please provide instructions in ____."

Show them the card, act really dumb, move towards the WTMD, and just stay in the way (pointing at the card). They may let you through rather than expend any of their few remaining brain cells to do something else.

In the end, there is no way to avoid being molested by the TSA if that is what they feel like doing that day.

Welcome to AmeriKa.

:I'm an American citizen, and English is my primary language - and I still can't understand half of them because they're either shouting, or they don't speak anything I'd call "English" in the first place.

:)^^^^^^^^^

The process is easy as long as you act like a sheep and follow the herd blindly. Assuming you want to preserve some dignity, you may have some issues. I suggest that you carry a card that states:

"I do not understand English. Please provide instructions in ____."

Show them the card, act really dumb, move towards the WTMD, and just stay in the way (pointing at the card). They may let you through rather than expend any of their few remaining brain cells to do something else.

In the end, there is no way to avoid being molested by the TSA if that is what they feel like doing that day.

Welcome to AmeriKa.

I live here. But my family will not come cause of TSA.

When I fly to Europe I will be a "....." if TSA are bad to me.

Perhaps this thread would help.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1302808-what-if-english-not-pax-first-language.html

I suppose that I am a 'foreigner'. (I really dislike that word) I am not an American citizen, nor do I live in the US, nor is English my first language. But I deal with the checkpoint just as I do at any checkpoint around the world. Just today I interacted with someone at an airport security checkpoint, including questions about if I had any liquids, if I had anything on my person, etc even though my knowledge of the language was extremely poor.

OP, you've asked this question many times here. Many of us have responded. I'm not quite certain what other information you are seeking.

But just as I don't expect airport security around the world to speak German/French/English, I would think that most reasonable visitors to the US would not expect TSA to speak Swedish, or any other language other than American (often regional) English.

The negative behaviours reported here over the years by TSA are not unique to non-English speakers.

In the end, there is no way to avoid being molested by the TSA if that is what they feel like doing that day.

There are several ways. None of them are all that palatable, since the best would be to simply leave the US and not return.

Perhaps this thread would help.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1302808-what-if-english-not-pax-first-language.html

I suppose that I am a 'foreigner'. (I really dislike that word) I am not an American citizen, nor do I live in the US, nor is English my first language. But I deal with the checkpoint just as I do at any checkpoint around the world. Just today I interacted with someone at an airport security checkpoint, including questions about if I had any liquids, if I had anything on my person, etc even though my knowledge of the language was extremely poor.

OP, you've asked this question many times here. Many of us have responded. I'm not quite certain what other information you are seeking.

But just as I don't expect airport security around the world to speak German/French/English, I would think that most reasonable visitors to the US would not expect TSA to speak Swedish, or any other language other than American (often regional) English.

The negative behaviours reported here over the years by TSA are not unique to non-English speakers.

I am asking this every few months since there are new rules .
And to see if somebody new has had a negative experince with TSA just because they are a foreigner and maybe with limited english.

I dont think that anybody expects TSA to speak swedish or most other languages.
But it does seem like TSA expects everybody to speak english!

And a lot of people dont know about this website so they cant know what is going on here.

And From what I have been told and read in Sweden is that most people dont believe that TSA is bad. And the stories they hear from me and others cant be true at all.

Foreigner can also be a tourist. A visitor who comes here.

And yes this really bugs me about TSA.
You say you just deal with what ever at the check point. You are an adult, used to travel and speaking english.

What about my swedish minor grandson who cant walk ,deaf and doesnt speak at all. He is afraid of strangers touching him.
His family will not travel with him out of fear what TSA could do to him. That means no visits for me.
My mom has alzheimers and very verbal. She will not come here either cause of everything going on at the airports.


So yes I want to hear about non US living people's experience with TSA.

I am asking this every few months since there are new rules .
And to see if somebody new has had a negative experince with TSA just because they are a foreigner and maybe with limited english.

I dont think that anybody expects TSA to speak swedish or most other languages.
But it does seem like TSA expects everybody to speak english!

And a lot of people dont know about this website so they cant know what is going on here.

And From what I have been told and read in Sweden is that most people dont believe that TSA is bad. And the stories they hear from me and others cant be true at all.

Foreigner can also be a tourist. A visitor who comes here.

And yes this really bugs me about TSA.
You say you just deal with what ever at the check point. You are an adult, used to travel and speaking english.

What about my swedish minor grandson who cant walk ,deaf and doesnt speak at all. He is afraid of strangers touching him.
His family will not travel with him out of fear what TSA could do to him. That means no visits for me.
My mom has alzheimers and very verbal. She will not come here either cause of everything going on at the airports.


So yes I want to hear about non US living people's experience with TSA.

Depending on where they fly from, they could get their first grope right at the departure airport in Europe. At CPH if the WTMD alarms (or randomly "alarms" you get a grope which in my experience is like a "standard" (non-retaliatory) TSA grope.

I think it is right that if one knows of situations along the travel that are likely to cause immense stress (at best), then one should carefully consider if it is worth it to go. Your family have done that and decided against it. I know you want to share with them, and feel sorry for you that you cannot. Instead, fly a European airline to go home every once in a while and don't spend your vacation money in the US either.

Most people in the US would not believe what we read on here either. "Surely it is not that bad".

DanishFlyer

I am asking this every few months since there are new rules .

What rule has changed with TSA in regards to non-English speakers since January 2012?

Most of the posters here who travel in the US but are not US-based speak English with enough proficiency to post coherently on FT. I doubt that you will hear much from them about their experiences as a non-English speaker as a result. A few of us have posted anecdotal observations, and I recall one person posting about their mother-in-law, but the reality is that asking the same question of the same audience every few months won't really result in a significant response to the question.

And a lot of people dont know about this website so they cant know what is going on here.
I actually know of many, many people who have read FT TS&S over the years, and who are turned off by the hyperbole of some posters. Many have said to me that the general tone here reinforced their belief that the anti-TSA movement is fuelled by a few tinfoil hat-wearing whingers. I no longer refer people to FT TS&S because I believe that this forum no longer helps to support the movement in a rational tone. We are doing ourselves no favours by embellishing or using hyperbole or name-calling.

The reality is that non-English speakers travelling in the US will encounter airport security similar to what they have experienced at their departure airport, with the differences being shoe removal and the name game (limited to some airports only). Most people are perceptive enough to follow the crowd and remove shoes, and on the times when we don't, we deal with it. Yes, there are times when the TSA acts inappropriately and shouts or belittles us, but since the Japanese tourists at LAS didn't understand 'remove your shoes', they also didn't understand the comments which followed. I DID, and I DID file a complaint.

In some cases, TSA is in fact more lax. Witness the thread about MUC, where liquids must be out, and contact lens fluid over 100ml must be checked. That is more strict that what TSA tends to follow.

There are responses on your other thread along those lines.

I'm also curious as to when you last flew, and how often, as you do seem to make statements about what TSA does and does not do. Have you actually experienced those things for yourself?

What rule has changed with TSA in regards to non-English speakers since January 2012?

Most of the posters here who travel in the US but are not US-based speak English with enough proficiency to post coherently on FT. I doubt that you will hear much from them about their experiences as a non-English speaker as a result. A few of us have posted anecdotal observations, and I recall one person posting about their mother-in-law, but the reality is that asking the same question of the same audience every few months won't really result in a significant response to the question.


I actually know of many, many people who have read FT TS&S over the years, and who are turned off by the hyperbole of some posters. Many have said to me that the general tone here reinforced their belief that the anti-TSA movement is fuelled by a few tinfoil hat-wearing whingers. I no longer refer people to FT TS&S because I believe that this forum no longer helps to support the movement in a rational tone. We are doing ourselves no favours by embellishing or using hyperbole or name-calling.

The reality is that non-English speakers travelling in the US will encounter airport security similar to what they have experienced at their departure airport, with the differences being shoe removal and the name game (limited to some airports only). Most people are perceptive enough to follow the crowd and remove shoes, and on the times when we don't, we deal with it. Yes, there are times when the TSA acts inappropriately and shouts or belittles us, but since the Japanese tourists at LAS didn't understand 'remove your shoes', they also didn't understand the comments which followed. I DID, and I DID file a complaint.

In some cases, TSA is in fact more lax. Witness the thread about MUC, where liquids must be out, and contact lens fluid over 100ml must be checked. That is more strict that what TSA tends to follow.

There are responses on your other thread along those lines.

I'm also curious as to when you last flew, and how often, as you do seem to make statements about what TSA does and does not do. Have you actually experienced those things for yourself?

I have not been on a plane since I got smacked by a female TSA. All becuase I lowered my arms when I got tired. I was groped before the rules came in place. I was totally suprised.

I know of people (tourists)who have been badly groped by TSA. And that even after going through a scanner without any alarm.

And that TSA gropes people and that they think is ok is not a secret.

They have been on the news and internet all claiming they are following what they can do.

Depending on where they fly from, they could get their first grope right at the departure airport in Europe. At CPH if the WTMD alarms (or randomly "alarms" you get a grope which in my experience is like a "standard" (non-retaliatory) TSA grope.

I think it is right that if one knows of situations along the travel that are likely to cause immense stress (at best), then one should carefully consider if it is worth it to go. Your family have done that and decided against it. I know you want to share with them, and feel sorry for you that you cannot. Instead, fly a European airline to go home every once in a while and don't spend your vacation money in the US either.

Most people in the US would not believe what we read on here either. "Surely it is not that bad".

DanishFlyer

I always fly KLM or SAS. Never a US carrier.

I have never been groped in Europe so far. My final airport is CPH. So far they have always been polite with manors. And even if I am not shy I really dont want that done to me.
And it scares me that they could do that to my 5 year old grand daugther. She and her family would freak out.
So even if I want them here to visit I am glad that they dont take the chance.

Also do they at CPH have a female on a female and so on? Or is it like in Norway you can ask for one if you get a male.

In my experience the TSO's will just speak slower and louder to the point of one word per 2 seconds at a shouting volume. This is done because everyone knows that everybody in the world understands English if it's spoken loud and slow.

...then if all else fails they'll just get an LEO and then point at the "suspect" with a frown while the LEO asks, "What do you want me to do about it? Call airport administration, they have translators."

...yes true story: IAD

...yes true story: IAD

:D

IAD, gateway to the American capital, is special. That is where they didn't recognise my ID as apparently the TSO had 'never seen one of these before'. (I find it difficult to believe that NO German citizens had ever passed through there before)

But IAD is also where the French woman in front of me forgot to remove her knee-high boots, and was ordered to do so in heavily accented, regional American English. We just rolled our eyes and had a shared conversation about the idiocy of American rules, and went on our way.

I suspect that most 'foreigners' react that way if they do have an interaction with a TSO; they either chalk it up to the ignorance of the individual, or the stupidity of the system, and move on. Yes, that may mean reduced tourism revenues for the US, and reinforce impresssions of Americans (and for that I do feel badly, as TSA doesn't represent the average American), but for the most part I think that we deal with it and recognise that is the current 'American way' when it comes to airport screening.

I also believe that most rational people recognise that they are a visitor in another country, and don't push back too much, in fear of losing their ability to visit in future. Most of you, would, I suspect do the same in other countries, even if your instincts were initially to react differently.

In my experience the TSO's will just speak slower and louder to the point of one word per 2 seconds at a shouting volume. This is done because everyone knows that everybody in the world understands English if it's spoken loud and slow.

...then if all else fails they'll just get an LEO and then point at the "suspect" with a frown while the LEO asks, "What do you want me to do about it? Call airport administration, they have translators."

...yes true story: IAD

Like what they did with a very old japanese woman who did not speak english. They got an chinese translator. Like that would help!

I am asking this every few months since there are new rules .

OP, again I ask, what are the new rules since you last posted a thread in January 2012 which would negatively impact your family?

The two 'new' rules would actually benefit them (Children not being required to remove shoes and most likely not being scanned, and those over 75 not being required to remove jackets and shoes)

I am certainly no TSA fan, but I do believe that in order for the anti-TSA message to be heard and received by the general population, we have a duty to provide accurate and factual information. While I may not agree with the principle of this change, it certainly isn't something which would worsen the experience of younger and older 'foreigners' at the checkpoint.

If there is a new TSA rule implemented since January 2012 which would negatively impact 'foreigners', then I would certainly appreciate if you could post it (especially as I have a trip through a US airport next week).

I always fly KLM or SAS. Never a US carrier.

I have never been groped in Europe so far. My final airport is CPH. So far they have always been polite with manors. And even if I am not shy I really dont want that done to me.
And it scares me that they could do that to my 5 year old grand daugther. She and her family would freak out.
So even if I want them here to visit I am glad that they dont take the chance.

Also do they at CPH have a female on a female and so on? Or is it like in Norway you can ask for one if you get a male.

At CPH you can ask for a screener of your own gender, that's what their signs/video says. There is usually one of either gender on the line, one before the WTMD and one after. I've seen them swap around some, but not seen people ask for a different screener, so don't know if they can always just swap.

I've only had pat down from same-sex screener. They were not impolite as such, did not physically hurt me and I was dressed to inside-waistband check. However, they didn't like me almost turning around to watch my stuff... "We have video". Yeah, sure, are you gonna close down the airport why you find the person who ran off with my stuff? No, didn't think so. So how will the video help when stuff goes missing?

Anyway, at CHP they are pretty cool, not impolite, but not friendly. They have not ever hurt me, or gone to the resistance. Nor have I heard them yell. As airports go, not a bad place, I think - they also still regularly test the security wait and the postings are pretty accurate.

I do not worry about going through there, nor would I worry about taking family through there. When I took 17 yo school kids to the US last year, I did (big time) worry about security for the flight home, but other than a boy getting turned back to check his bag with a huge bottle of perfume for his mum, nothing happened at security. And yes, he had been told a million times :-)

DanishFlyer

OP, again I ask, what are the new rules since you last posted a thread in January 2012 which would negatively impact your family?

The two 'new' rules would actually benefit them (Children not being required to remove shoes and most likely not being scanned, and those over 75 not being required to remove jackets and shoes)

I am certainly no TSA fan, but I do believe that in order for the anti-TSA message to be heard and received by the general population, we have a duty to provide accurate and factual information. While I may not agree with the principle of this change, it certainly isn't something which would worsen the experience of younger and older 'foreigners' at the checkpoint.

If there is a new TSA rule implemented since January 2012 which would negatively impact 'foreigners', then I would certainly appreciate if you could post it (especially as I have a trip through a US airport next week).

I never said that where new rules.
I said they keep adding and changing. Depending what is goin on.
I am from LA. CA. So my airport is LAX.
They have gotten worse since Jan. 2012.
We all hear the stories from passengers.


And in fact I dont beleive ( I want to) that the new "rules" will benifit all travellers.

It depends on the screnner and /or airport.

We all know that TSA do what they want to. And if you question them you do get retalation.

At CPH you can ask for a screener of your own gender, that's what their signs/video says. There is usually one of either gender on the line, one before the WTMD and one after. I've seen them swap around some, but not seen people ask for a different screener, so don't know if they can always just swap.

I've only had pat down from same-sex screener. They were not impolite as such, did not physically hurt me and I was dressed to inside-waistband check. However, they didn't like me almost turning around to watch my stuff... "We have video". Yeah, sure, are you gonna close down the airport why you find the person who ran off with my stuff? No, didn't think so. So how will the video help when stuff goes missing?

Anyway, at CHP they are pretty cool, not impolite, but not friendly. They have not ever hurt me, or gone to the resistance. Nor have I heard them yell. As airports go, not a bad place, I think - they also still regularly test the security wait and the postings are pretty accurate.

I do not worry about going through there, nor would I worry about taking family through there. When I took 17 yo school kids to the US last year, I did (big time) worry about security for the flight home, but other than a boy getting turned back to check his bag with a huge bottle of perfume for his mum, nothing happened at security. And yes, he had been told a million times :-)

DanishFlyer

At CHP they have always been friendly to me.
Even laughs at me since I dont understand danish at all. And I am swedish.
So we speaks english to each other.

I guess a lot of people dare to ask for a same sex screnner. People are just afraid to have a voice.

Like you say no yelling at all.

I would like to know ( being swedish). How far TSA would go if you dont understand them as a foreigen/tourist?!

Can the abuse. Sure I get they can and would.

But how far can they TSA push if they person have no clue what they are saying?

It really bugs me since my family/friends are swedish.

Sure some speak more than others.

So far I cant get really anybody over here to vistit cause they are afraid of TSA. And they sure dont want their privates to be groped. Or their kids to be be groped.
Any one?

This has become a problem in my family . BIG TIMES.

If possible, why not move back to Sweden yourself?
Get back your Swedish nationality if possible and move to a more decent country with a better lifestyle and living standard. Away from the troubles.
Certainly your family in US would also be entitled to Swedish residency because of you.

That should solve the issue. Forever.

If possible, why not move back to Sweden yourself?
Get back your Swedish nationality if possible and move to a more decent country with a better lifestyle and living standard. Away from the troubles.
Certainly your family in US would also be entitled to Swedish residency because of you.

That should solve the issue. Forever.

Surely moving off topic here now, but unless you are familiar with Swedish immigration laws, don't be so sure.

In Denmark, for example, for immigration based on family ties, the rules in some cases (under 26 years of age, or under 26 as a citizen) requires that the combined ties are stronger to Denmark than to the foreign country. So if, as a family or independently, a couple lived in the US, and the spouse maybe does not speak (much) Danish, has never lived here etc, that means that that spouse will not have the right to move here based solely on marriage. Thankfully, this is being softened up some with interpretations and also dispensations, but still. Even legally, upping and moving "home" is not always an option.

DanishFlyer

There are several ways. None of them are all that palatable, since the best would be to simply leave the US and not return.

And never returning to the USA is unpalatable because...?

I actually know of many, many people who have read FT TS&S over the years, and who are turned off by the hyperbole of some posters. Many have said to me that the general tone here reinforced their belief that the anti-TSA movement is fuelled by a few tinfoil hat-wearing whingers. I no longer refer people to FT TS&S because I believe that this forum no longer helps to support the movement in a rational tone. We are doing ourselves no favours by embellishing or using hyperbole or name-calling.


I assume that's why TS&S was split into a Practical forum and a Policy Debate forum. Where it crosses the line between practical, debate and OMNI is left to the interpretation of the moderators. :D

While I'm not about to jump to the defense of the TSA, they do generally provide a more consistent experience than some of the airports I've visited overseas. This was theoretically the reason the agency was created in the first place, keeping in mind it was before the shoe carnival, TDC not recognizing valid IDs/playing the name game and era of dangerous water bottles and toothpaste.

Of course there are airports where unpublished 'policies' such as the name game or second boarding pass check occur, but you will likely have a far easier time getting your medical liquids through the line at a US airport than one overseas where the liquids restrictions are in place. In fact, Team SFO discovered that I had a water bottle that I had forgotten about in a side pouch of my bag. (Team SFO missed said water bottle earlier that week.) The TSO said unless it was medical I'd need to take it landside or discard it. I didn't try, but I'm 90% sure if I told her I have an occasional dihydrogen monoxide deficiency I would have been enjoying the bottle of water later that afternoon. ;)

If possible, why not move back to Sweden yourself?
Get back your Swedish nationality if possible and move to a more decent country with a better lifestyle and living standard. Away from the troubles.
Certainly your family in US would also be entitled to Swedish residency because of you.

That should solve the issue. Forever.

I am swedish citizent so are my grownup kids.I only really have 1 "kid" in US. The rest lives in Norway,Italy and Sweden.
I have thought about leaving sunny Ca. to the cold (in the winter)Sweden.

And as Danishflyer says swedish immigration laws are not that easy.

It is a long process. And during that time your partner cant be in Sweden.The process can take up to a year.

OP, again I ask, what are the new rules since you last posted a thread in January 2012 which would negatively impact your family?
Judging from OP's previous posts, I would say she is just trying to ignite a new TSA-bashing debate. I myself am not a fan of the TSA and post-9/11 security, but I can recognise when such a dislike turns into an obsession. Sadly, a lot of TS&S folks are indeed obsessed with the TSA, and it makes this forum less and less useful.

I never said that where new rules.


I am asking this every few months since there are new rules .

Really? Perhaps my English is poor, but I suspect that is not the reason why we disagree on this point. You very clearly stated that there are new rules in your post I quote above. Again, what are the new rules to which you refer? I offered up two which would actually benefit your family situation.

Judging from OP's previous posts, I would say she is just trying to ignite a new TSA-bashing debate. I myself am not a fan of the TSA and post-9/11 security, but I can recognise when such a dislike turns into an obsession. Sadly, a lot of TS&S folks are indeed obsessed with the TSA, and it makes this forum less and less useful. Bumping up a previous thread would be one way to ask the same question over a period of time. But thanks to the OP for making my point for me, once again.

I would like to know ( being swedish). How far TSA would go if you dont understand them as a foreigen/tourist?!

Can the abuse. Sure I get they can and would.

But how far can they TSA push if they person have no clue what they are saying?

It really bugs me since my family/friends are swedish.

Sure some speak more than others.

So far I cant get really anybody over here to vistit cause they are afraid of TSA. And they sure dont want their privates to be groped. Or their kids to be be groped.
Any one?

This has become a problem in my family . BIG TIMES.

You should wear a hat that says "Praise the Lord, Let me say a prayer for you" nuff said! Maybe then, they'll think you will end up being over the top with religious talk or maybe they won't be religious and wouldn't talk to you at all! :D:cool:

Maybe new rules was not the words I should have used.

The way TSA acts should be the correct word. Sorry about that.

Obssesed! Not really.

I do have 6 kids on my own and 1 stepchild.All adults.
And the more that is read on internet the more they have backed out from coming here.

That does make me sad. But I do understand them. They protect their kids and them selves.

So obsssed. Not really the correct words. More concerned about wht is happening in and USA.

Thanks for skype.

Really? Perhaps my English is poor, but I suspect that is not the reason why we disagree on this point. You very clearly stated that there are new rules in your post I quote above. Again, what are the new rules to which you refer? I offered up two which would actually benefit your family situation.

Bumping up a previous thread would be one way to ask the same question over a period of time. But thanks to the OP for making my point for me, once again.

That about kids having an easier time.
Great if they dont get groped. My handicapped grandson who cant walk would be a target for a grope and so on. He cant speak and is also deaf. And doesnt understand english at all.

Judging from OP's previous posts, I would say she is just trying to ignite a new TSA-bashing debate. I myself am not a fan of the TSA and post-9/11 security, but I can recognise when such a dislike turns into an obsession. Sadly, a lot of TS&S folks are indeed obsessed with the TSA, and it makes this forum less and less useful.

Well I guess that most people on this forum are obssesed then.!

Maybe we are trying to geta real debate going on.

This is ridiculus.

So far I cant get really anybody over here to vistit cause they are afraid of TSA. And they sure dont want their privates to be groped. Or their kids to be be groped.
Any one?
This has become a problem in my family . BIG TIMES.

Not much you can do about it. This is what America has become. But at least *you* can go to visit your family.

Well I guess that most people on this forum are obssesed then.!

Maybe we are trying to geta real debate going on.

This is ridiculus.

The reality is that you, your family, and every other traveller has a decision that they need to make. For some people, that means avoiding the US. For others it means not flying. For still others, it means choosing the MMW or BSX over the risk of a patdown.

We ALL make decisions, OP, 'foreigners' or not.

Many people have had negative encounters with TSA, and that includes both 'foreigners' as well as US residents and US citizens. The rules and policies do not single out 'foreigners', although there are some policies which make it more challenging for certain people.

I too am not a supporter of the TSA, but I believe very strongly that the argument against TSA has to be approached in the right fashion so as not to lose the support of the public. Personally, I believe that hyperbole, drama, and lack of facts is what turns people away from TS&S and reinforces the belief that many who are anti-TSA are just wearing tinfoil hats. I enjoy reasoned debate and discussion, but I also believe that some posters/threads have weakened the argument against TSA and are not doing us any favours.

That about kids having an easier time.

No, there is actually a new directive towards older travellers as well. If you are so upset about the TSA, perhaps you should also take some time to review the new practices they have implemented. Again, I am no fan of the TSA, but there is a new directive which can make things somewhat easier for some travellers.

The reality is that you, your family, and every other traveller has a decision that they need to make. For some people, that means avoiding the US. For others it means not flying. For still others, it means choosing the MMW or BSX over the risk of a patdown.

We ALL make decisions, OP, 'foreigners' or not.

Many people have had negative encounters with TSA, and that includes both 'foreigners' as well as US residents and US citizens. The rules and policies do not single out 'foreigners', although there are some policies which make it more challenging for certain people.

I too am not a supporter of the TSA, but I believe very strongly that the argument against TSA has to be approached in the right fashion so as not to lose the support of the public. Personally, I believe that hyperbole, drama, and lack of facts is what turns people away from TS&S and reinforces the belief that many who are anti-TSA are just wearing tinfoil hats. I enjoy reasoned debate and discussion, but I also believe that some posters/threads have weakened the argument against TSA and are not doing us any favours.



No, there is actually a new directive towards older travellers as well. If you are so upset about the TSA, perhaps you should also take some time to review the new practices they have implemented. Again, I am no fan of the TSA, but there is a new directive which can make things somewhat easier for some travellers.

I agree that some can benifit from the new rules.

Probably not my severe handicapped grandson at all.

Upset . Of cause.

TSA has lost my support after what they did to me and friends.

And I used to respect them big times.

Not any more. That is why skype is my family's friend. Until we decide what to do.

Each to their own. We are all differnt what we accept.

I'm a little perplexed by this.... yes, there are bad experiences that people have had with TSA. But that doesn't mean that there are not people out there who have had decent or at least, neutral, experiences as well. We just don't come on here to vent about it. That would be a boring thread indeed: "I had no issues with airport screening today" for example.

If your choice to not visit your family abroad or not have them come visit you is causing so much stress, then you might want to examine your issues further and decide....is the stress of not visiting worth it? Can you handle dealing with TSA to allow yourself some family time? Or can your family handle it to satisfy their desire to visit you? Because they might have a neutral experience and then all this worry would have been for nothing.

I have come to my balance point with my TSA issues. My main concern, as a radiologist, has been the Backscatter machines. With some lesser concerns about the idea of the 'naked' scanners, whether backscatter or MMW. Currently, the airports I fly in and out of all have the MMW with the automated reading, so no person is seeing my human outline, and I am not getting irradiated. And, while one could debate the efficacy of the MMW (and any other one of the "layers of security") all day long, I find that this is the compromise I am willing to make. Sure, maybe I'm a sheep....but my body is not being violated, whether by ionizing radiation, nor by the TSAs eyes or hands, so I'm good with it. My flying experiences lately have generally been either neutral, or in some cases, surprisingly pleasant.

By pleasant, I mean that the TSA personnel have willingly admitted in two different airports that *they* wouldn't go through the backscatter. The lady TSA at PDX who busted me in the MMW for forgetting to take my credit cards out of my back pocket only patted down that pocket and swabbed my hands...not a full-on patdown. The TSA who took my bike at oversize checkin was understanding that an expensive piece of sporting equipment should be examined and repacked carefully.

Now...the name game at AUS has gotten quite old, but haven't had that the last two times I've flown out, either...maybe because I engage them in conversation in an effort to divert them from the routine of asking, I don't know.

Anyway....you *assume* that you or your relatives are going to have a bad experience. And yes, there is that chance....but I would say that it is less than a 100% chance, so it will be up to you to think about the risk/benefit ratio....or succumb to your fears and never see your family again....that's not a choice I could make.

Anyway....you *assume* that you or your relatives are going to have a bad experience. And yes, there is that chance....but I would say that it is less than a 100% chance, so it will be up to you to think about the risk/benefit ratio....or succumb to your fears and never see your family again....that's not a choice I could make.

Exactly. Nobody has 100% bad experiences with TSA. And there are I believe some people who push and push, and while I am not saying that they are entirely to blame for the outcome, they do impact the outcome.

Millions of 'foreigners' still fly in/to/from the US every year, including ones who speak no English, and who have physical or mental issues, are very young, or very old. There are a few reports of poor experiences, but even if I have to say my name five times, and am told that I am not pronouncing it the 'right' way, really, in the end, that doesn't have a lasting impact on me. It's annoying, but it reflects more on the TSO (or on the US) than on me.

Even when I had a poor physical experience, I dealt with it and moved on. I don't come here and talk about it multiple times, nor do I use it as a benchmark of the 'average' TSA experience. And as someone with physical issues, unable to use either BSX or MMW, and a foreigner, and a woman, my chances of a poor experiences may be slightly higher than the norm. But it still isn't generally horrific.

Part of deciding what one does is also deciding how one behaves, and how one reacts.

I've suggested before here to at least one poster that they seek counselling. I meant that as kindly as possible, because their reaction seemed disproportionate to the situation (and I was not the only one who viewed it that way). I continue to suggest that if one is so fearful, or so concerned, that one considers never seeing family again.

Why give TSA such power?

Here is a 'foreigner and TSA' report for you:

Report 1: Although the airport is listed as one which plays the 'name game', no name game was being played at the international terminal.

Queue was 5 minutes or less; 2 MMW in operation, 1 WTMD blocked by female TSO.

I placed my items on the belt, approached the female TSO, and advised her that I am physically unable to use the MMW. She looked at me, said 'of course!' and told her colleague that I would be using the WTMD. She told me to ensure that all my items were on the belt and were going through the x-ray, then invited me to walk through the WTMD. She thanked me, I retrieved my items, and left.

Report 2: The family behind me apparently spoke no English. They had a son who appeared to be about age 11-13. Without them making the request, every member of the family was directed through the WTMD (I assume due to the newish rules about children not using the scanner), they were thanked by the TSO, and they gathered their items, and left.

Horrific, isn't it, how we were treated? :rolleyes:

Here is a 'foreigner and TSA' report for you:

Report 1: Although the airport is listed as one which plays the 'name game', no name game was being played at the international terminal.

Queue was 5 minutes or less; 2 MMW in operation, 1 WTMD blocked by female TSO.

I placed my items on the belt, approached the female TSO, and advised her that I am physically unable to use the MMW. She looked at me, said 'of course!' and told her colleague that I would be using the WTMD. She told me to ensure that all my items were on the belt and were going through the x-ray, then invited me to walk through the WTMD. She thanked me, I retrieved my items, and left.

Report 2: The family behind me apparently spoke no English. They had a son who appeared to be about age 11-13. Without them making the request, every member of the family was directed through the WTMD (I assume due to the newish rules about children not using the scanner), they were thanked by the TSO, and they gathered their items, and left.

Horrific, isn't it, how we were treated? :rolleyes:

Thank you for the report.
This is how it always should be.

I am not worried about me cause I can speak up for myself.
And ,by the way, I dont need counseling.

I will always travel. TSA will never STOP ME.

I will always travel. TSA will never STOP ME.

This. Most of the people who don't have bad reports to do won't do them. And even if the situation is less than acceptable, there are many places where it's worse. If you're ready to visit them, why wouldn't you visit the US? You can meet rude and moronic officials everywhere. For example, I've been asked to tell my name at passport control in Qatar, and guess what? I thought that the Qatari governement was stupid to think it would improve their security, and I answered with my name --- the officials had no way of matching the written characters with the way I pronounce my name, but he was happy. Did it ruin my trip? No, not remotely. Would the same thing happening in the US ruin my trip there? Probably not, either. If you set your expectations of dealing with the US low enough, you won't have any problem. I think most of the people complain are upset by TSA because they are US citizens and see when dealing with TSA that their country isn't living up to their ideal (land of the free, etc.) If you have reasonable expectations (you're visiting a country where the executive branch say they are at war, after all, and treat the "land of the free" as propaganda) about the US, you won't find that on average, crossing an US airport checkpoint different than other checkpoints around the world. On the plus side, you won't have to bribe officials, so it's definitely not at the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to checkpoints. We don't have threads here complaining about the land border of Laos, and (a) many people visit Laos anyway (b) it's worse than TSA. I am pretty sure we could have a thread with people reporting "no problem at the Laotian border": because that's out of the norm, it would be reported. Exactly the contrary with the US and TSA.

This. Most of the people who don't have bad reports to do won't do them. And even if the situation is less than acceptable, there are many places where it's worse. If you're ready to visit them, why wouldn't you visit the US? You can meet rude and moronic officials everywhere. For example, I've been asked to tell my name at passport control in Qatar, and guess what? I thought that the Qatari governement was stupid to think it would improve their security, and I answered with my name --- the officials had no way of matching the written characters with the way I pronounce my name, but he was happy. Did it ruin my trip? No, not remotely. Would the same thing happening in the US ruin my trip there? Probably not, either. If you set your expectations of dealing with the US low enough, you won't have any problem. I think most of the people complain are upset by TSA because they are US citizens and see when dealing with TSA that their country isn't living up to their ideal (land of the free, etc.) If you have reasonable expectations (you're visiting a country where the executive branch say they are at war, after all, and treat the "land of the free" as propaganda) about the US, you won't find that on average, crossing an US airport checkpoint different than other checkpoints around the world. On the plus side, you won't have to bribe officials, so it's definitely not at the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to checkpoints. We don't have threads here complaining about the land border of Laos, and (a) many people visit Laos anyway (b) it's worse than TSA.

I live in US. This is about my european family with and without kids.

I am not worried about me cause I can speak up for myself.
And ,by the way, I dont need counseling.

I will always travel. TSA will never STOP ME.

That isn't the impression I have had reading your threads and posts. You said upthread that you have not travelled for quite some time, as a result of the TSA:

I have not been on a plane since I got smacked by a female TSA. All becuase I lowered my arms when I got tired. I was groped before the rules came in place. I was totally suprised.

People react to what you wrote. It does sound to me that you have some issues which you need to resolve, if you care to see your family ever again. Yes, that may have been an annoying incident, but it seems to have great power over you if you are still making decisions based on that incident, and letting that one ignorant person have so much control over your decisions.

I spent the last 18 months flying long haul many, many weekends in order to see a dying parent. In order to minimize the very significant impact to my mileage accounts and to my bank account, and to maximize time with family, I often had to connect through the US, even if that were not my first choice.

I do not regret that decision. Personally, I would regret it if I didn't see a parent before they passed away, because I gave too much power to a government agency, and because I was too busy engaging in discussion on the internet about something which wouldn't most likely happen. I have been one of the vocal, non-American posters here, but I am also rational and try to assess risk in a realistic fashion.

That was my decision, but again, based on the many posts you have made on the subject, I do suggest that you seek assistance in order to see your mother before she passes away, or moves into the phase of Alzheimers where she will never recognise you again.

I value my family too much to give the TSA that much power. I would be sad for anyone who chose to let that happen. But that is in the end your decision to make. I don't think that anything any of us says here will have much impact.

That isn't the impression I have had reading your threads and posts. You said upthread that you have not travelled for quite some time, as a result of the TSA:

.

People react to what you wrote. It does sound to me that you have some issues which you need to resolve, if you care to see your family ever again. Yes, that may have been an annoying incident, but it seems to have great power over you if you are still making decisions based on that incident, and letting that one ignorant person have so much control over your decisions.

I spent the last 18 months flying long haul many, many weekends in order to see a dying parent. In order to minimize the very significant impact to my mileage accounts and to my bank account, and to maximize time with family, I often had to connect through the US, even if that were not my first choice.

I do not regret that decision. Personally, I would regret it if I didn't see a parent before they passed away, because I gave too much power to a government agency, and because I was too busy engaging in discussion on the internet about something which wouldn't most likely happen. I have been one of the vocal, non-American posters here, but I am also rational and try to assess risk in a realistic fashion.

That was my decision, but again, based on the many posts you have made on the subject, I do suggest that you seek assistance in order to see your mother before she passes away, or moves into the phase of Alzheimers where she will never recognise you again.

I value my family too much to give the TSA that much power. I would be sad for anyone who chose to let that happen. But that is in the end your decision to make. I don't think that anything any of us says here will have much impact.

I said that I have not travelled for some time. Not since I got groped and smacked.

I never said that is the reason why I have not been on a plane.

I am working full time and just not had the time to travel.

What I did write was that my grandkids will most likely not come for a visit to USA., since their parents will not have touched and so on. The rest of the family have no desire either cause of them.

I talk to my mom weekly. And she is in early stages of alz.

Assistance with what? You dont know me.
I dont like to be bullied and/or touched by strangers.
To me that is nothing strange or odd or need to get help with.

A trait of uneducated people is the lack of tolerance for anyone different.

I am an immigrant, a US citizen and English is my home language, albeit not with a US accent. Consequently I have been belittled, abused and violated at more than one checkpoint.

Yes - I did report the incidents. Guess what happened? :rolleyes:

Assistance with what? You dont know me.
I dont like to be bullied and/or touched by strangers.
To me that is nothing strange or odd or need to get help with.

Based on your posts and threads (which is the only way most readers can get to 'know' someone online), I do think that it would be helpful to aid you best understand relative risk and the outcome of certain actions. Your posts to me do have a certain message and hence my suggestion that if this really is such a concern to you as it appears, it may be useful to have assistance so that you can see your family again.

It's not about being 'a sheep'. It's about realising that we all can have some control over outcomes, and if we go looking for certain experiences, we may find them.

Again, the vast majority of people (Americans and foreigners) travel every single day in the US without lasting impact. Some of them choose to use the scanner, some of them opt out, some are unable to use the scanner. The stories we read here and hear about are the exceptions to the rule. Of course there are more such stories which go unreported, but the risk of something very negative occuring is still relatively low. Every person needs to assess that risk, and if it worries them, then they need to do what they can to minimize the chances of something occurring.

My advice to anyone would be to remain civil and calm, avoid becoming defensive or argumentative, even whilst standing up for oneself. That generally had a better impact on the outcome, even if it requires escalating the issue. In reality, behaviours at the checkpoint most likely have a greater impact on the outcome than citizenship or age. (I am certainly not stating that everyone who had a bad checkpoint experience brought it on themselves, but I have read enough over the years and seen enough in person to realise that some people look for conflict and find just what they expected to find)

Based on your posts and threads (which is the only way most readers can get to 'know' someone online), I do think that it would be helpful to aid you best understand relative risk and the outcome of certain actions. Your posts to me do have a certain message and hence my suggestion that if this really is such a concern to you as it appears, it may be useful to have assistance so that you can see your family again.

It's not about being 'a sheep'. It's about realising that we all can have some control over outcomes, and if we go looking for certain experiences, we may find them.

Again, the vast majority of people (Americans and foreigners) travel every single day in the US without lasting impact. Some of them choose to use the scanner, some of them opt out, some are unable to use the scanner. The stories we read here and hear about are the exceptions to the rule. Of course there are more such stories which go unreported, but the risk of something very negative occuring is still relatively low. Every person needs to assess that risk, and if it worries them, then they need to do what they can to minimize the chances of something occurring.

My advice to anyone would be to remain civil and calm, avoid becoming defensive or argumentative, even whilst standing up for oneself. That generally had a better impact on the outcome, even if it requires escalating the issue. In reality, behaviours at the checkpoint most likely have a greater impact on the outcome than citizenship or age. (I am certainly not stating that everyone who had a bad checkpoint experience brought it on themselves, but I have read enough over the years and seen enough in person to realise that some people look for conflict and find just what they expected to find)

You might mean well. But no way.

I am educated in health care and so on.
I dont need help to travel.
My family will not come to USA for all this with TSA.
I NEVER said I will not travel. You can read what ever you want.I am not a conflict seeker I am the one who solves conflicts.

I get pat down again or smacked. I will have a very loud voice and so on.

But HELP !. No I dont need that at all.

Do I think that TSA is way out of line . YES I DO.

My family will not come to USA for all this with TSA.
I NEVER said I will not travel. You can read what ever you want.I am not a conflict seeker I am the one who solves conflicts.

Two possible solutions for you:
* Perhaps your family would be interested in meeting you in Canada. Assuming you live someplace relative close and could drive or take the train across the border, you could both avoid TSA.
* Transatlantic cruises are supposed to be wonderful! And repositioning cruises are apparently very cost-effective. What I would give to be on a boat for 5 or 6 days without stopping in any ports. Ah, heaven! I could spend hours just staring at the sea.

Two possible solutions for you:
* Perhaps your family would be interested in meeting you in Canada. Assuming you live someplace relative close and could drive or take the train across the border, you could both avoid TSA.
* Transatlantic cruises are supposed to be wonderful! And repositioning cruises are apparently very cost-effective. What I would give to be on a boat for 5 or 6 days without stopping in any ports. Ah, heaven! I could spend hours just staring at the sea.

Thank you for your in put.

How ever. I get sea sick very easy and I love the water(S).

They cant do it cause they have a limited time to travel.You know time off work. Other's dont want to be on the boat with kids for that long.

It is going to be me going back on the plane.

Based on your posts and threads (which is the only way most readers can get to 'know' someone online), I do think that it would be helpful to aid you best understand relative risk and the outcome of certain actions. Your posts to me do have a certain message and hence my suggestion that if this really is such a concern to you as it appears, it may be useful to have assistance so that you can see your family again.

It's not about being 'a sheep'. It's about realising that we all can have some control over outcomes, and if we go looking for certain experiences, we may find them.

Again, the vast majority of people (Americans and foreigners) travel every single day in the US without lasting impact. Some of them choose to use the scanner, some of them opt out, some are unable to use the scanner. The stories we read here and hear about are the exceptions to the rule. Of course there are more such stories which go unreported, but the risk of something very negative occuring is still relatively low. Every person needs to assess that risk, and if it worries them, then they need to do what they can to minimize the chances of something occurring.

My advice to anyone would be to remain civil and calm, avoid becoming defensive or argumentative, even whilst standing up for oneself. That generally had a better impact on the outcome, even if it requires escalating the issue. In reality, behaviours at the checkpoint most likely have a greater impact on the outcome than citizenship or age. (I am certainly not stating that everyone who had a bad checkpoint experience brought it on themselves, but I have read enough over the years and seen enough in person to realise that some people look for conflict and find just what they expected to find)

Also I need help to travel? When my family will not travel here?so I need counseling because of that?
I really dont understand that part.

I am very nice and calm. A peace keeper.

BUT any one pushes my limit I will get back at that person.

If I get treated at the last time I travelled. I will be very loud.

so what is the problem with that?

Two possible solutions for you:
* Perhaps your family would be interested in meeting you in Canada. Assuming you live someplace relative close and could drive or take the train across the border, you could both avoid TSA.
* Transatlantic cruises are supposed to be wonderful! And repositioning cruises are apparently very cost-effective. What I would give to be on a boat for 5 or 6 days without stopping in any ports. Ah, heaven! I could spend hours just staring at the sea.

@tanja maybe you could drive to canada or mexico and meet your family there? I'm sure the Mexico airports are much more pleasant. Heck, I bet the people that work at their airports are better educated/better trained and friendlier.

IAD, gateway to the American capital, is special.

It's the same airport where I witnessed a gate agent telling a woman on a KWI flight to "take that towel off your head so I can hear you talking" :rolleyes:

I said that I have not travelled for some time. Not since I got groped and smacked.

Wow, sorry to hear about that. I assume because you got "smacked" that you've filed assault and battery charges against them? If not, why not, and if so, you probably shouldn't be putting your case out there on FT if it's still pending.

Wow, sorry to hear about that. I assume because you got "smacked" that you've filed assault and battery charges against them? If not, why not, and if so, you probably shouldn't be putting your case out there on FT if it's still pending.

If I knew then what I know now. Yes I should have filed assult charges.

But I got so suprised and speach less and did not know I could do that against an TSO.
I was in a hurry to fly to SWEDEN and my mom's 80 birthday.

If it would happen now I would.

Also I need help to travel? When my family will not travel here?so I need counseling because of that?
I really dont understand that part.

I am very nice and calm. A peace keeper.

BUT any one pushes my limit I will get back at that person.

If I get treated at the last time I travelled. I will be very loud.

so what is the problem with that? If you 'get back' at someone, and if you become 'very loud', you will be aggravating the issue and most likely will find that the situation becomes even more negative.

A better way to handle it is to remain calm, polite, and do not raise your voice. Ask for a supervisor if necessary. But if you become belligerent, or argumentative, or shout, you may find that things become even worse.

Many of us fly every week here and do voice our concerns, and do escalate issues to a higher level, but do so calmly and politely. That doesn't make us sheep.

If I knew then what I know now. Yes I should have filed assult charges.

Well, it's likely still under the statute of limitations. I'm a bit surprised you felt in the U.S. that government officials could assault people and that was legal? How long have you lived here from SWEDEN?

I live in LA . CA. so it is close to Mexico. Just that so far none is intressted of going there.

Well, it's likely still under the statute of limitations. I'm a bit surprised you felt in the U.S. that government officials could assault people and that was legal? How long have you lived here from SWEDEN?

I was so suprised and should add chocked. And it takes a lot to make me chocked.
I have lived here since 1994.

And yes I do know it sounds suprsing. It does that even to me after that trip was over and done.
Not at all like me to be quiet.