AirTran Airways A+ Rewards - I know the Southwest merger has negatives

but there have got to be some positives.

The points/credits are interchangeable and there are more destinations now, right?

I just don't like Delta - too long for a free one-way, and the numerous statuses and the stupid credit card, which they value more than flight loyalty.

Won't the new airline still be better?

Won't the new airline still be better?

Depends on where you live. And if you're holding a voucher you can't use when WN picked up an AirTran route.

15 cities losing AirTran (http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2012-02-29/Many-cities-lose-out-in-Southwest-AirTran-merger/53307050/1) didn't pick up SWA.

Which is not to say FL would have found them financially sustainable indefinitely.

Already FL has new international routes to Mexico though from WN stations. The points/credits transfer seems to offer the highest WN points earners fly anywhere for 100 Airtran credits. Those that do fly both can top off on either for free flights.

And you can burn your points already to fly BDA, NAS, PUJ, CUN, MBJ and AUA all new opportunities for RR members.

Yes some cities are gone. Though some cities will ultimately get a better route network. DSM for example. CAK might ultimately win out over Cleveland but who knows?

The only odd thing I see is not honoring CP on either. Pretty much the same qualification.

but there have got to be some positives.

The points/credits are interchangeable and there are more destinations now, right?

I just don't like Delta - too long for a free one-way, and the numerous statuses and the stupid credit card, which they value more than flight loyalty.

Won't the new airline still be better?


It has always been the Southwest way or the highway. Name any innovation or feature unique to AirTran that Southwest has adopted or plans to adopt due to the acquisition. The Southwest network may have expanded, but neither the product nor prices will benefit.

There are no positives. Getting rid of the XM radio for no reason other than getting rid of the XM radio, was the first clue. WN took a perfectly good airline and made it less.

The only advantage: you can apply canceled flight value to a future flight. That's it.

More cities with WN may benefit non-Atlanta based travelers more. BUt Atlanta based travelers have better direct options with Airtran.

Use of travel funds on canceled flights
Companion Pass
Access to WN route network
New non ATL international service
Not one layoff due to acquisition (may have to move though)

People forget this was not a merger. It was an acquisition. WN bought Airtran for Atlanta, International expansion, and NE cities. Even Airtran management said they would not have lasted much longer as stand alone carrier due to changes in the landscape. At least with WN the employees have a chance with jobs. (WN does not layoff people, its not in their blood). Why would WN change to Airtran methods. They have been the most profitable airline using their tested business model for 40 years while during the same time period every one of their competition has either shut down or gone bankrupt in the last 40 years.

Even Airtran management said they would not have lasted much longer as stand alone carrier due to changes in the landscape.

AirTran management said no such thing.

Quite the contrary (http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1521328&highlight=), it would seem.

They cashed out.

Not one layoff due to acquisition (may have to move though)


Yes, you are technically correct. But Mr. Man, would you work your same job for 40% less, and also be told to do things a different way that makes your job a heck of a lot less productive? While Southwest "observed" the AirTran way of doing things, they never once planned on even considering integrating some of the good things done by the Citris folks, AT ALL.

AirTran's lost luggage rate compared to Southwest is a massive difference, especially when you consider transfer bag lost rates.

to compare:

Aug 11 - FL had 4,282 claims, came out to 1.87 per 1,000.... WN had 37,229 claims, came out to 3.76 per 1,000... and yet WN flew 3.5X more pax
Aug 10 - FL had 4,184 claims, came out to 1.83 per 1,000.... WN had 34,932 claims, came out to 3.57 per 1,000... and same.. 3.5x more pax on WN
Nov 10 - FL had 2,935 claims, came out to 1.43 per 1,000.... WN had 29,746 claims, came out to 3.29 per 1,000... and flew 3x more pax than FL

see a trend here? Even if you used the same scale, WN does a horrible job with bags. So what did they do when they came to Atlanta? Watched. Then told FL "you are going to start transferring bags this way..." This comes first hand from a guy who *wanted* to stay with AirTran/Southwest but just couldn't swallow taking such a massive cut in pay (and he wasn't making over $70k mind you).

I've seen mergers & acquisitions. This one was a total assimilation.

deleted as pretty much useless

This comes first hand from a guy who *wanted* to stay with AirTran/Southwest but just couldn't swallow taking such a massive cut in pay (and he wasn't making over $70k mind you).

Everyones (non-contract) situation is different so its probably unfair to generalize everyone in that boat. I didnt take any cut in pay, in fact I negotiated a significant rise in pay.

They cashed out.

Who is they? If you really believe anyone on the FL sold to SWA just to cash out you really dont know the situation.

As an Atlanta based traveler, I guess I am selfish and want Airtran to stay because I have a feeling we will have more non stop options and better discount fares with Airtran. I miss the XM feature already. I also prefer Airtran's A+ Rewards program to WN's because you can use as little as 4 credits for an upgrade. The only thing I don't like about A+ Rewards is the one year expiration. Before I became elite , I was forced to use the cxredits before I felt a trip warranted using the credits instead of cash.

If you are not an Atlanta based traveler, what are the advantages of Airtran over a Southwest setup other than Business Class and assigned seating?

What percentage of non-Atlanta based travelers use Airtran for one stop flights versus direct flights?

Who is they? If you really believe anyone on the FL sold to SWA just to cash out you really dont know the situation.

Fair enough. What was the situation?

Was Robert Fornaro's $2.9 million in benefits once the deal was finalized mis-reported? Or was it $5.7 million? (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/03/airline_executives_get_millions_of_dollars_in_merg ers.html) Did lead FL execs NOT receive lump sum cash payouts equal to two times their base salaries?

Ft. Worth Star-Telegram (http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2011/04/airtran-ceo-bob-fornaro-to-get-29-million-after-southwest-merger.html#storylink=cpy)

Was Robert Fornaro's $2.9 million in benefits once the deal was finalized mis-reported? Or was it $5.7 million? Did lead FL execs NOT receive lump sum cash payouts equal to two times their base salaries?

Ft. Worth Star-Telegram

I fail to see your point. Executives receive compensation in every merger/acquisition. This one was no different than any of the others and I dont see other than the usual fingerpointing how this was some kind of "cash out" when there would have been more cash to be had in the long run (or a short run if you want to look at it that way because it probably would have taken 2-3 years) by not selling out.

Fair enough. What was the situation?



Impending pilot contract + possible crippling strike and oil. The low liquid cash poisition and higher chance of bankruptcy/liquidation was the only reason.

Actually I think Legal Tender has it right. If it was not WN, Airtran share holders would have cashed out to someone and consolidated. They would eventually have sold to someone.

Actually I think Legal Tender has it right. If it was not WN, Airtran share holders would have cashed out to someone and consolidated. They would eventually have sold to someone

Such a blanket statement can be made of any non-legacy or major LCC. If the price was right B6/VX/AS/HA would sell to someone at some point. Reasons for everyone are different. Besides the shareholder risk for FL was greater but the possible rewards were greater as well.

I dont see other than the usual fingerpointing how this was some kind of "cash out" when there would have been more cash to be had in the long run (or a short run if you want to look at it that way because it probably would have taken 2-3 years) by not selling out.

Impending pilot contract + possible crippling strike and oil. The low liquid cash poisition and higher chance of bankruptcy/liquidation was the only reason.

Best of times. Worst of times.

So, if bankruptcy/liquidation was looming, how is it "there would have been more cash to be had in the long run" to eclipse the payouts the AirTran front office received?

So, if bankruptcy/liquidation was looming, how is it "there would have been more cash to be had in the long run" to eclipse the payouts the AirTran front office received?

Nothing was imminently "looming." This wasnt AA in Ch11 with an institutional problem. The risk was long term, just like it is for JetBlue now and to a lesser extent because of niche markets AS or HA.

Doubtfull that FL would have folded in 2 or 3 years but 5-10 is a different question.

From a pure mathematical example you can earn a mil or a few per year for another few years and then get bought and take a payout. Youve now earned the payout + salary/bonuses for those extra years worked. In addition you never exactly know how big the payout would have been in the future if you would have grown your network and added those 73Gs on order. Could have just as well been 2x as large in the year 2017 than last year from SWA. Its just a risk game so on the other side it could have been that AAI could have risen back up so much the SWA payout of a few mil would have looked like chump change. No one could have predicted even if the pilots would have striked, maybe there would be a financially unfavorable TA reached and it would have taken 4-5 years for it to really pillage the cash position pockets. In fact there is a real life example of such a thing: WN labor agreements.

No matter what though there is almost always a payout in any industry. No party here was a corporate raider...no one came into FL to sell FL, no one came into this sale either to screw the employees, in fact the majority of them will receive some sort of raise, yes that includes the future ramp SLI, F/A and pilot SLIs.

You can argue what you would or wouldnt do if you were in that position, thats a personal judgement call.

UAPremierExec
AirTran's lost luggage rate compared to Southwest is a massive difference

Actually, not so much...
As has been pointed out numerous times, the DOT number references percentage of mishandled baggage per 1000 passengers - not mishandled baggage per 1000 checked bags.

UAPremierExec
would you work your same job for 40% less

While I believe the OP is concerned with advantages relevant to passengers (not employees), your incorrect inference must be corrected.

Your friend is indulging in hyperbole to the extreme if he is telling you he will take a 40% paycut from AirTran to SWA while performing the same job. In fact, a 40% raise is the typical raise for organized labour groups going from AirTran to SWA.

In fact, the following is part of the arbitrators decision from the recent Dispatchers seniority arbitration(bolding mine):

The record is abundantly clear that the AirTran dispatchers, upon becoming Southwest dispatchers, will be able to enjoy many benefits not now available to them, benefits that greatly enhance what they receive with Air-tran. Additionally the Air-tran dispatchers, besides getting a windfall with pay and benefits, will also have the added benefit of joining a well established , financially solid company where greater opportunities will be afforded.

Your friend is indulging in hyperbole to the extreme if he is telling you he will take a 40% paycut from AirTran to SWA while performing the same job. In fact, a 40% raise is the typical raise for organized labour groups going from AirTran to SWA.

1 - was told he was to transfer to Dallas and take a cut in pay, and to take a demotion, even though his title technically stayed the same. Workload quadrupled.

2 - person in question is also a Flyertalker (but hasn't posted in a while). His job doesn't exist in Southwest, and they told him this.

3 - Station managers were offered jobs as supervisors or even LEAD agents.. some who had been with AirTran/ValuJet for many, many, many years. There isn't a single AirTran station manager that survived in joint cities.

Actually, not so much...
As has been pointed out numerous times, the DOT number references percentage of mishandled baggage per 1000 passengers - not mishandled baggage per 1000 checked bags.

Check out my numbers again, I even showed the total passengers flown. Southwest flew 3 - 4x as many passengers, yet the AirTran rate, even if tripled, is WELL below the rate at Southwest. Southwest has HORRIBLE ground handling when compared to other airlines and its because the union has quite the grip on WN. Non-public numbers - ask people "in the know" how many AOG's Southwest has everyday vs. AirTran. AirTran maybe would have one AOG/ramp incident a month, WN is in the double digits every week. I guess that's success for you.

I am bitter about the AirTran assimilation. I also have friends at Southwest, but I'm not about to drink the latest koolaid to come out of Dallas. And I don't really like "todays" Southwest. I miss the red bellied warbirds. I miss the rear-facing seats. I miss recognizing my flight crews. I miss legroom! ^_^

I don't see a single positive as an Atlanta based Elite.

Your friend is indulging in hyperbole to the extreme if he is telling you he will take a 40% paycut from AirTran to SWA while performing the same job. In fact, a 40% raise is the typical raise for organized labour groups going from AirTran to SWA.

1 - was told he was to transfer to Dallas and take a cut in pay, and to take a demotion, even though his title technically stayed the same. Workload quadrupled.

2 - person in question is also a Flyertalker (but hasn't posted in a while). His job doesn't exist in Southwest, and they told him this.

3 - Station managers were offered jobs as supervisors or even LEAD agents.. some who had been with AirTran/ValuJet for many, many, many years. There isn't a single AirTran station manager that survived in joint cities.


1. That may be true (I find it hard to believe a 40% pay cut would be in order even if it is) but even assuming it is true that is not the majority of non-contract employees.

2. Which is?

3. That is just false. Where are you getting this information from other than thin air?

UAPremierExec
AirTran's lost luggage rate compared to Southwest is a massive difference, especially when you consider transfer bag lost rates.
to compare: .......

......Check out my numbers again, I even showed the total passengers flown.

You don't understand what I posted.
In fact, AirTran's lost luggage rate per bag handled is not "massively different" from Southwest's rate.
The DOT numbers of mishandled bags are reported as a percentile per 1000 passengers - not a percentile per 1000 bags handled.
The number of checked bags per customer is significantly higher on Southwest.

I also have friends at Southwest, but I'm not about to drink the latest koolaid to come out of Dallas.

+1 ^

1. That may be true (I find it hard to believe a 40% pay cut would be in order even if it is) but even assuming it is true that is not the majority of non-contract employees.

2. Which is?

3. That is just false. Where are you getting this information from other than thin air?

#2 - he was in administration in Atlanta. If you like I can ask if he'll post here. He was, back in the earlier days of FlyerTalk, one of the most popular and respected posters here.

#3 - person #2 was highly involved with all the stations in the system and stuck around well past the 90 days that WN asked for during the transition. He had a good relationship with almost every station out there and not a single station manager was offered a job as a station manager in the WN system. If you don't believe me, lets look at LGA. The FL LGA station manager had been with the airline for 18 or so years. Yet the WN LGA station manager "a kid", is now the manager for both operations in LGA. LGA station manager was promised a 'supervisor job when it opens'.

I've always liked Southwest's service.. I don't like where they are going, but airlines typically don't care about what the traveler thinks. My point of issue with some of these posts just echo how many people at Southwest feel they "saved" AirTran from shut down - i've heard almost everyone @ WN (friends included) say how they hope they don't lose seniority to "those airtran people" who don't deserve it. The attitude I've observed as a friend AND as a paying customer on WN is that anything FL is like a cock roach... the attitudes conveyed are way worse than the original HP-US merger, and I was employed by USAirways Group at the time of the merger and bailed after the train wreck.

#3 - person #2 was highly involved with all the stations in the system and stuck around well past the 90 days that WN asked for during the transition. He had a good relationship with almost every station out there and not a single station manager was offered a job as a station manager in the WN system. If you don't believe me, lets look at LGA. The FL LGA station manager had been with the airline for 18 or so years. Yet the WN LGA station manager "a kid", is now the manager for both operations in LGA. LGA station manager was promised a 'supervisor job when it opens'.



FL @ LGA is not run by the WN LGA station mgr so your info is incorrect. FL IND station manager now is the station manager of that station + LGA. We dont have a combined station manager over there. Yea I know exactly what happened in LGA and the whole situation up there is unique (kind of like BWI) in a way which shouldnt be discussed publicly.

More of your info that is incorrect - Not a single station manager was offered a job as a station manager on the WN system? One word: MCO.

Also there is not one combined station that is run by a WN station manager unless the FL station manager went on to become a manager of some sort in the WN system. I cant think of one station where someone became a supervisor. In fact I would say a majority of them got various upgrades throughout the station system.

I have no axe to grind here, nor do I have any particular interest in the inside baseball of the FL/WN integration. However I would not want to see any employee of FL or WN suffer any adverse consequences because some too tightly wound reader took offense at a post here and decided to pursue the poster, the poster's source, or the poster's employer.

I realize that this problem is extremely rare on FT, although I'd bet it happens somewhat more frequently on airliners.net. IMHO one occurrence is one too many.

If anyone feels that edits or soft deletions are required, I'll be happy to coordinate it with the SuperModerators who have moderation ability on forums like this one which lack dedicated moderators. If not, I'd just caution posters that Internet posts are by default permanent and that sometimes a Private Message is preferable.

NSX, There seems to be second hand allegation of just one employee (who decided to leave?) at higher level FL maybe having to do more work at less that pay decided to bail. That's where mergers offer the benefits of eliminating duplication.. Sadly most of that duplication usually occurs towards the top and the greatest pain in salary tends to fall there too.

Yes, the manager of LGA is the very capable FL manager of IND as well as several other stations.

NSX, There seems to be second hand allegation of just one employee (who decided to leave?) at higher level FL maybe having to do more work at less that pay decided to bail. That's where mergers offer the benefits of eliminating duplication.. Sadly most of that duplication usually occurs towards the top and the greatest pain in salary tends to fall there too.

Exactly. And lets get real, the overwhelming majority of FL workers compensation will be on the plus and not the minus when all is said and done.

I have no axe to grind here, nor do I have any particular interest in the inside baseball of the FL/WN integration. However I would not want to see any employee of FL or WN suffer any adverse consequences because some too tightly wound reader took offense at a post here and decided to pursue the poster, the poster's source, or the poster's employer.

I realize that this problem is extremely rare on FT, although I'd bet it happens somewhat more frequently on airliners.net. IMHO one occurrence is one too many.

If anyone feels that edits or soft deletions are required, I'll be happy to coordinate it with the SuperModerators who have moderation ability on forums like this one which lack dedicated moderators. If not, I'd just caution posters that Internet posts are by default permanent and that sometimes a Private Message is preferable.

NSX - There is no secret information divulged here it is purely setting the record straight without naming anyone specific. Spreading of second hand information that is false has to be corrected, especially when it is negative information spread by someone who is not directly employed by said company.

Yes, the manager of LGA is the very capable FL manager of IND as well as several other stations.

And anyone that says anything else is doing themselves a disservice by throwing away their credibility out the window.

My point of issue with some of these posts just echo how many people at Southwest feel they "saved" AirTran from shut down - i've heard almost everyone @ WN (friends included) say how they hope they don't lose seniority to "those airtran people" who don't deserve it. The attitude I've observed as a friend AND as a paying customer on WN is that anything FL is like a cock roach... the attitudes conveyed are way worse than the original HP-US merger, and I was employed by USAirways Group at the time of the merger and bailed after the train wreck.

I dont think that that is the opinion of the majority of WN. I havent ever heard the words "dont deserve it" and that FL was saved from shutdown, in fact I havent had anyone at WN act that way towards me. I have heard a few comments here or there about the SLI (especially on the FL pilot side) but that always happens and frankly I dont know how you can say the attitudes are worse than at HPUS when the labor side of things has progressed quicker in 9 months here than in over half a decade at US complete with lawsuits and full paper attack ads.