Aegean Airlines Miles&Bonus - What happens if A3 goes bankrupt?

I recently moved all my *A mileage collection from SQ to A3, basically because of the no-hassle *G status with redemption levels that are similar to SQ.

But with Greece about to go belly-up and having just read about A3's financial troubles, I was wondering: what would happen to our miles and status if A3 ceased to operate?

Any views?

That's a really good question. I've had the same thought for a while now. About to get Blue status from a flight this weekend, but who knows if they'll still be around in a year.

Assuming they assign card numbers in normal progression, A3 seem to have signed up something like 15000 new members this past week alone. Maybe they feel they can overcome their troubles by coaxing huge numbers of *A flyers into collecting miles in the A3 programme. But I can't really say how that might work since I do not know about the internal arrangements between *A partners.

Assuming they assign card numbers in normal progression, A3 seem to have signed up something like 15000 new members this past week alone. Maybe they feel they can overcome their troubles by coaxing huge numbers of *A flyers into collecting miles in the A3 programme. But I can't really say how that might work since I do not know about the internal arrangements between *A partners.

A3 assigns numbers by 11 - so if I get assigned 100000000, the next person will get 100000011. And the person after that 100000022. etc.

I'm not a professional, but it doesn't appear that A3 is likely to go bankrupt.
Even if A3 did go bankrupt, like JK's bankruptcy, we'd probably get Star Alliance status matches.

A3 assigns numbers by 11 - so if I get assigned 100000000, the next person will get 100000011. And the person after that 100000022. etc.

I'm not a professional, but it doesn't appear that A3 is likely to go bankrupt.
Even if A3 did go bankrupt, like JK's bankruptcy, we'd probably get Star Alliance status matches.

Indeed A3 are a long way from that I'd be more worried about other airlines to be honest.

Assuming they assign card numbers in normal progression, A3 seem to have signed up something like 15000 new members this past week alone. Maybe they feel they can overcome their troubles by coaxing huge numbers of *A flyers into collecting miles in the A3 programme. But I can't really say how that might work since I do not know about the internal arrangements between *A partners.

I've recently joined A3 from BMI as BMI have now been bought by BA and have left *A. This is where all the new members have come from as A3 very kindly status matched me.

what would happen to our miles and status if A3 ceased to operate?

Any views?

same as any other * airline going bust. Status members would likely get a match elsewhere

In general, airline alliances don't rescue troubled members. The latest examples of alliance members which went bankcrupt include JK (*A) and MA (OW) - but more prominent examples include the former Brazil flag carrier and founding member Varig (*A). So don't expect them to get rescued.

The FFP usually goes down in case of bankcruptcy. Exceptions are possible where it is outside the corporate structure - but the only notable example I'm aware of is Aeroplan. All others, including A3, are within corporate structure and would go down in a bankcruptcy.

As others mentioned, there are usually some status match offers by other alliance members - but clearly not by all of them. So your choice in respect of status match may be fairly limited.

The risk in the case of A3 is quite hard to assess. It is owned by Greek family corporations, who don't disclose any financials. Also A3 itself doesn't provide full financial statements. Unless you are an insider, you'll never know ... until it's too late.

Also A3 itself doesn't provide full financial statements. Unless you are an insider, you'll never know ... until it's too late.

What would you need in addition to their IFRS financial results? As the company is listed on a public stock exchange, I am pretty sure they're providing enough financial informations to determine whether they're on the brinck of bankrupcy or not. Their full audited results certainly do that. Even if the float is really tiny, you could become an insider for the bargain price of 1.25€ :D

...The risk in the case of A3 is quite hard to assess. It is owned by Greek family corporations, who don't disclose any financials. Also A3 itself doesn't provide full financial statements. Unless you are an insider, you'll never know ... until it's too late.Not true! Last quarter's results were made public two days ago. See here (http://en.aegeanair.com/all-about-us/press-office/press-releases/press-release/?prid=374) for a summary, but in the web you can find much more details (mind you, in Greek). A3 is a public corporation quoted in the Athens stock market.

I've recently joined A3 from BMI as BMI have now been bought by BA and have left *A. This is where all the new members have come from as A3 very kindly status matched me.

Who did you status match from and could you share who at A3 did you send your details to? Cheers

Who did you status match from and could you share who at A3 did you send your details to? Cheers

I got my BMI Diamond club *A Silver matched to Aegean Blue which is *A Silver.

I sent an email to miles_bonus@aegeanair.com
with a scan of my card and a PDF print out of my Account mileage statement from the BMI website.

Check out the BMI Diamond club forum for other *A status matches.

A3 does provide financial data. Here is Aegean's FY2011 basic income statement and balance sheet:
http://i.imgur.com/2xUrP.png

On the quality of the report itself:
I am not familiar with the auditors (Enel SA (http://www.enel.com.gr)), as they are a small and unaffiliated local firm. (The same firm is used for Autohellas, i.e. Hertz in Greece, a firm that shares multiple members and a chairman with Aegean.)

Greece transitioned to IFRS in 2005 along with the rest of the European Union. The quality of accounting information pre-transition was said to be poor, and the quality afterwards is said to be poor as well, with one former member of Greece's accounting board stating that "a systematic audit of financial statements, by experienced and specialised auditors, would reveal many and significant problems in relation to IFRS’ implementation."

Luckily, that expert was Panagiotis Vroustouris, who also happens to be the head auditor of Aegean's financial statements. Mr Vroustouris is a CPA who has represented ELTE, Greece's Accounting and Auditing Oversight Board, at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, and has served on the European Commission's Accounting Regulatory Committee.

There is no reason to doubt the quality of Aegean's financial figures. They were audited and given a clean opinion by a accredited professional who appears to be a well-respected expert on IFRS and Greek accounting practice.

On the figures presented:

Aegean is not a profitable airline, but this is almost redundant, as it is an airline.
However, the airline's revenues have continued to grow and the airline has expanded through the downturn, despite weakness in the Greek economy. Aegean did not hit as low a point in unprofitability as other large European carriers such as LH, AF and FR, and its profit margin is still healthier than either LH or AF.

Compared to many of its peers, Aegean is not heavily indebted. Airline's usually finance their large equipment costs with debt; Aegean has a relatively low debt burden compared to its peers, which is especially important for reasons that will soon become clear.

My quick take

In isolation, Aegean as an airline is not especially unhealthy.

The biggest single risk to its operations is if Greece were to leave the Eurozone. Aegean's debts are denominated in Euros and it's likely that if the Greek government were to redenominate them, foreign creditors would not accept this redenomination. The airline would almost certainly be tied up in years of litigation, and most especially, its supply of new aircraft and parts from EADS would be disrupted; however, this type of dispute can take years and would not necessarily lead to a sudden crisis.

In the event of a Greek exit of the Eurozone, Aegean's prospects would depend on two factors:
1) how many Euros it would have readily available to meet current obligations and costs. Aegean's treasurer may have already moved its money to a foreign bank; even if this is so, it's unclear if the Greek government might take extraordinary steps against Greek companies whose cash evaded redenomination.
2) how well and how quickly Aegean could leverage the increase in foreign tourism that would result from Greece leaving the Eurozone. Intra-Greece travel would likely continue to be weak for some time; however, the weakness of a new Greek currency would make the country very attractive to foreign tourists, as Greek prices would become substantially cheaper. Additionally, the more non-Greek passengers Aegean attracts, the more "hard" currency it would bring in, which would greatly increase the ease with which the company could pay external debts; meanwhile, that "hard" currency would go much further in paying for items now denominated in the new "soft" currency (primarily labour and internal debt).

If a situation arose where Greece had to choose whether to nationalize Aegean, Olympic or both, the Government's priority would be preventing the failure of Olympic, due to its broader domestic network.

To be clear, if Greece left the Eurozone, Aegean's viability would depend on its continued access to Euros, which is very uncertain. But even if Greece were to remain in the Eurozone, the increasing deterioration of the Greek economy would likely weaken the business rapidly over the next few years, as internal demand would collapse without a fall in the price level that would attract foreign visitors.

In the very near future, I don't see Aegean failing unless there were a Greek exit from the Eurozone; but over the next five years, a Greece in the Eurozone would like be just as bad if not worse for the airline's prospects. Either way, the Aegean's continued existence is very unclear—and unfortunately the airline has very little choice in the matter.

A3 assigns numbers by 11 - so if I get assigned 100000000, the next person will get 100000011. And the person after that 100000022. etc.

I'm not a professional, but it doesn't appear that A3 is likely to go bankrupt.
Even if A3 did go bankrupt, like JK's bankruptcy, we'd probably get Star Alliance status matches.

Don't count on it, particularly if you don't have a Greek mailing address. The other STAR programs are wise to the STARGold scam you guys are pulling, so don't expect much sympathy from the big players particularly if you have a US, UK or similar address and no A3 flight activity in your account.

...to the STARGold scam you guys are pulling...:eek: I really don't understand why this particular forum invites opinions that are, mildly put, offending!

Don't count on it, particularly if you don't have a Greek mailing address. The other STAR programs are wise to the STARGold scam you guys are pulling, so don't expect much sympathy from the big players particularly if you have a US, UK or similar address and no A3 flight activity in your account.

I do mostly agree with your statement. But care to elaborate why making use of an official program and its published benefits is scam in your eyes ?

The other STAR programs are wise to the STARGold scam you guys are pulling

Ha ha ha - what a load of tosh.

Ha ha ha - what a load of tosh.

Don't bother with that particular character. He's an Air Canada hack who bristles at the idea of anything that doesn't suit AC (his moniker is based on his claim that he owns AC shares, which can be bought for less than a chocolate bar these days - I d be grumpy about it too). He has a habit of spreading misinformation - and he gets called out on it on numerous occassions (all very apparent on the AC thread).

At worst, don't expect AC Aeroplan to status match. You re not missing out on much.

Personally, I ve avoided being disloyal to A3, but if push comes to shove, I ll send my account statement to TK and hope for the best. Given that I have history with them, not overly worried. In fact I might just give it a shot when I cross the TK 40k mark in Sometime this year.

Hopefully A3 is going nowhere.

Well, Aeroplan is useless, but we knew that already...

I'm wondering if it's possible that OZ will match status. Their requirements for Gold are not substantially different than Aegean's (40k in 24mo vs 20k in 12mo).

N.B. that when JK failed, passengers were status matched by other Star carriers, but lost their points.

Well, Aeroplan is useless, but we knew that already...

I'm wondering if it's possible that OZ will match status. Their requirements for Gold are not substantially different than Aegean's (40k in 24mo vs 20k in 12mo).


There have been evidence of a BMI match to OZ.

There have been evidence of a BMI match to OZ.

I had understood OZ did not status match (in fact I have been told as much by an OZ country manager, though this was not in relation to the BMI *A exit). Please provide details.

(Not sure this is the right forum for this post but hey, I am sure GoldCircle will be along to move the post if I am in the wrong forum. Seems that BMI denziens are already starting to hang out in the A3 forum in droves!)

I had understood OZ did not status match (in fact I have been told as much by an OZ country manager, though this was not in relation to the BMI *A exit). Please provide details.

I've recall having read it in one of the (numerous) thread about matching on the bmi forum. But after searching it, I think I got confused with NZ :( as I can't find the post again. Sorry for spreading false news :(


(Not sure this is the right forum for this post but hey, I am sure GoldCircle will be along to move the post if I am in the wrong forum. Seems that BMI denziens are already starting to hang out in the A3 forum in droves!)

My guess is nearly half of us, the other half going to TK. BMI's refugees are all going the mediterrean airlines ;)

...My guess is nearly half of us, the other half going to TK. BMI's refugees are all going the mediterrean airlines ;)

Mediterranean = Mare nostrum! :cool:

Don't bother with that particular character. He's an Air Canada hack who bristles at the idea of anything that doesn't suit AC (his moniker is based on his claim that he owns AC shares, which can be bought for less than a chocolate bar these days - I d be grumpy about it too). He has a habit of spreading misinformation - and he gets called out on it on numerous occassions (all very apparent on the AC thread).

At worst, don't expect AC Aeroplan to status match. You re not missing out on much.

Personally, I ve avoided being disloyal to A3, but if push comes to shove, I ll send my account statement to TK and hope for the best. Given that I have history with them, not overly worried. In fact I might just give it a shot when I cross the TK 40k mark in Sometime this year.

Hopefully A3 is going nowhere.

Care to amplify your spurious statements? Either put up or shut up.

What have I been "called out" on? That some contend AC pockets the fuel surcharge put on AE tickets...an illegal act not proven. That EK's business plan is predicated on sucking up customers from other airlines and undermining the financial viability of national carriers (ask QF about that one) and not on taking customers to and from the Emirates which is how bilateral agreements were intended to work?

My critique of this scam come from the fact that at least I can legitimately speak about flying A3 since I've had several segments on them this year alone. I doubt more than 10% of those who have taken advantage of the easy STARGold access have flown A3, let alone been to that part of the world! Have you flown A3?

As for being an AC apologist, read a couple of the recent threads I've started, all critical of AC.

So either put up or shut up, yulred.

Care to amplify your spurious statements? Either put up or shut up.

What have I been "called out" on? That some contend AC pockets the fuel surcharge put on AE tickets...an illegal act not proven. That EK's business plan is predicated on sucking up customers from other airlines and undermining the financial viability of national carriers (ask QF about that one) and not on taking customers to and from the Emirates which is how bilateral agreements were intended to work?

My critique of this scam come from the fact that at least I can legitimately speak about flying A3 since I've had several segments on them this year alone. I doubt more than 10% of those who have taken advantage of the easy STARGold access have flown A3, let alone been to that part of the world! Have you flown A3?

As for being an AC apologist, read a couple of the recent threads I've started, all critical of AC.

So either put up or shut up, yulred.

Is it a scam? Is arbitrage a scam? If so, I expect you to stop buying goods in China since they rely on labor arbitrage and therefore all products made in China are products of a 'scam'. There were plenty of people (Americans mostly) who signed up to AE to take advantage of the 35k threshold for Star Gold not so long ago. That was 15k less than what MP required at 50k. Was that a scam as well? Should we be criticizing the ranks of American AE members who did that? Because, as I see it, A3 is only offering a threshold that is 15k miles of AC's former *G threshold. If AC could play that game with MP, why shouldn't A3 be allowed to play it now?

Futhermore, I think you'll find that A3's program is not exactly a secret to other airlines. Everyone knows the thresholds. If *A has a problem with it, they can bring it to bear on A3.

And no, I don't see it as taking advantage of A3. As I understand it, everytime I credit my flight to A3, AC has to purchase the miles from A3. If its generating revenue for A3, I m happy with it.

What have I been "called out" on? That some contend AC pockets the fuel surcharge put on AE tickets...an illegal act not proven. That EK's business plan is predicated on sucking up customers from other airlines and undermining the financial viability of national carriers (ask QF about that one) and not on taking customers to and from the Emirates which is how bilateral agreements were intended to work?

My critique of this scam come from the fact that at least I can legitimately speak about flying A3 since I've had several segments on them this year alone. I doubt more than 10% of those who have taken advantage of the easy STARGold access have flown A3, let alone been to that part of the world! Have you flown A3?

1. AC probably is pocketing the YQ on AE tickets. It's not illegal: it's a carrier-originated surcharge, not a government fee. (And of course, the money carriers collect by fees is fungible: every dollar you pay in YQ is one less dollar that AC has to use to cover the cost of providing your service.)

2. Who cares that "EK's business plan is predicated on sucking up customers from other airlines and undermining the financial viability of national carriers"? Take out the word "national" and that statement loses all force: it's nothing but an expression of protectionism. Competing for—sorry, I mean "sucking up"—customers is what airlines are supposed to do. Other carriers either have to say "Hello, Tomorrow" or they will be unviable financially.
And so airlines like QR, EY and FI have looked at what EK was doing and said, "Damn, that's clever. Perhaps we should do that as well."
There are a few government incentives that make things a bit unfair in EK's favour, but at the end of the day, the biggest things that Emirates benefits from are fundamentals: lower labour costs, better weather, better location, cheap land, cheap construction. (Not to mention a high standard of service.)

3. So, you "can legitimately speak about flying A3." That's nice.
Though not particularly relevant.
You see, you don't actually need to fly on A3 to participate in Miles&Bonus. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to. And it's starting to become clear that A3 doesn't really care if you do either.
A "scam" implies that there is some sort of dishonesty on the part of the beneficiary. This is, at worst, a loophole, which implies that the beneficiary maximized their gain because the predetermined rules of the game were poorly made.

Unless you actually are a shareholder in AC, people flying on EK or getting status on A3 should really be of little concern to you. And if you are a shareholder in AC, you really have much bigger problems to worry about.

Dear fellow FT'ers! This is an interesting thread but the last few posts are OT, both in terms of subject and in terms of the tone we use in A3 forum!

Futhermore, I think you'll find that A3's program is not exactly a secret to other airlines. Everyone knows the thresholds. If *A has a problem with it, they can bring it to bear on A3.

Star Alliance didn't have a problem with AC very low threshold for years, even if they were much lower than Lufthansa's, at least until the introduction of a new level. My guess is they don't care as long as the status granter pays for its dues.


My critique of this scam come from the fact that at least I can legitimately speak about flying A3 since I've had several segments on them this year alone.


You can certainly speak about flying A3, but have you credited these flights to A3's loyalty program? This is the M&B board here, and M&B doesn't really care whether you fly Aegean. Or they wouldn't be matching DC's refugees left, right and center but offer them a challenge instead.

Dear fellow FT'ers! This is an interesting thread but the last few posts are OT, both in terms of subject and in terms of the tone we use in A3 forum!

Actually, whether A3 is running a scam by granting *G status with low threshold or whether people are scamming A3 by crediting flights with them to get *G (the post was a little unclear w/r/t to who was scamming who...) _is_ relevant IMHO to the A3 forum. I agree the rest is not, and that's why I limit my answers to that.

Let put this bluntly.

The protagonists of the little spat above have a choice between backing off, or taking a short holiday from FT.

I don't want to read this. I assure you, pretty much no one else does either. Take it to PM if you care to. I'm sure you'll persuade each other. :rolleyes:

GoldCircle
A3 Forum Mod

I doubt more than 10% of those who have taken advantage of the easy STARGold access have flown A3, let alone been to that part of the world! Have you flown A3?

Why does it matter, if the new A3 *G members ever flew A3? Did those who came over from BMI's Diamond Club ever fly on BMI?

Me, for example, accumulated more than 1 Mio in BMI Diamond Club miles over the last 6 years with no single mile flown on BD.
Everything was earned and spent on LH, TG and SQ.

Dear fellow FT'ers! This is an interesting thread but the last few posts are OT, both in terms of subject and in terms of the tone we use in A3 forum!

Star Alliance didn't have a problem with AC very low threshold for years, even if they were much lower than Lufthansa's, at least until the introduction of a new level. My guess is they don't care as long as the status granter pays for its dues.

You can certainly speak about flying A3, but have you credited these flights to A3's loyalty program? This is the M&B board here, and M&B doesn't really care whether you fly Aegean. Or they wouldn't be matching DC's refugees left, right and center but offer them a challenge instead.

Actually, whether A3 is running a scam by granting *G status with low threshold or whether people are scamming A3 by crediting flights with them to get *G (the post was a little unclear w/r/t to who was scamming who...) _is_ relevant IMHO to the A3 forum. I agree the rest is not, and that's why I limit my answers to that.

Bringing this back on-topic, i.e. an A3 bankruptcy, the consensus is definitely that A3 doesn't care if M&B members ever actually fly with them—but will other *A carriers care if push comes to shove and they're being asked to status match?

I'm also wondering in particular if OZ will match in the event of a bankruptcy (I'm aware that they don't match in normal conditions), since 40k over 2 years and 20k over one year are essentially the same requirement.

(Somewhat tangential, but speaking of YQ: what is YQ like on A3? I've never heard anyone talk about it, so I'm assuming no one had cause to complain.)

Bringing this back on-topic, i.e. an A3 bankruptcy, the consensus is definitely that A3 doesn't care if M&B members ever actually fly with them—but will other *A carriers care if push comes to shove and they're being asked to status match?

I'm also wondering in particular if OZ will match in the event of a bankruptcy (I'm aware that they don't match in normal conditions), since 40k over 2 years and 20k over one year are essentially the same requirement.

(Somewhat tangential, but speaking of YQ: what is YQ like on A3? I've never heard anyone talk about it, so I'm assuming no one had cause to complain.)

Will other carriers help? At the very worst, they may ofer *S and tell you to work your way up (which is fair, I think).

Personally, I think *A is fully aware of the program and may think it has some utility in maintaining the loyalty of infrequent frequent fliers. 20k may be a fraction of the 40k normally required, but its not a small amount either. In effect, iA3 strikes me as a *S+ that suits people who would have dismissed *S as meaningless/ the equivalent of non-status (it generally is) and been less loyal. In my own case, I tend to travel 30-40k annually. That would put me in *S across the board, and *G in good years.

I don't rate *S (as is evident above), and if it comes to price vs loyalty for lowly *S, lowest price will always win. In fact, that was the case till I 'discovered' A3. A3*G is essentially *S+. It doesn't offer the eUpgrades of AC, or the upgrade credits/vouchers being used by many other airlines.

Some observations:

1. Unlike other programs, A3 does not offer a Tier bonus (which would cost other airline members more). *A airlines are probably happy about this, since they get the loyalty without having to cough up more for frequent fliers on other airlines.

2. A3 does offer a generous class of service bonus, but it should be noted that A3 members will be paying anywere from 3x to 6x more (for J/F) and will only be getting 1.5x - 3x more miles for it, so again, I doubt the partner airlines are too miffed.

3. A3 is cashing in in each case by selling the miles to the airline which are then deposited into one's own account.

4. A3 does not offer upgrade vouchers/credits. It isn't incurring any costs in this regard. As such, this is also a disincentive for frequent fliers from other *A airlines to switch, since they will keep flying their own airlines (out of geographical necessity), and will place a high value on these credits/vouchers, which are valid on their own airline. In other words, don't expect too many *Gs from UA or AC to come flooding in (unless R inventory dries up completely, rendering their upgrade benefits useless).Similarly, members of those programs who rely on tier benefits(see no. 1) will not leave because of the opportunity cost of signing up to A3, namely no upgrades/tier bonus.

5. Every time A3 FFs use a lounge, A3 is billed for it. However with A3 pax typically being infrequent 'frequent' flyers, I suspect the numbers aren't too alarming, since money is also being generated by the miles they're selling to the airlines. I don't think UA or AC would be miffed with having A3 *Gs roaming around in their overpriced low-service lounges.

6. Priority check in and handling are marginal costs (if that). In fact, I doubt there is any cost associated with them. The same applies to priority boarding.

7. Not all booknig classes qualify for miles. Its not very easy earning the miles. This is beneficial both for partner airlines (who sell higher fares) and A3 (who aren't handing them out willy-nilly).

As such, A3's *G is almost completely in line with AC's new revised *S+ in terms of benefits. The only additional benefit for A3 over AC*S+ is priority luggage handling, which, as I've noted, is unlikely to be more than a very marginal cost.

I dare suggest that A3's program gave AC and *A some leeway in allowing AC to increase its threshold, since it acted as a secondary net to catch people like myself from going from potentially quitting *A altogether. For the vast majority of us A3ers, *S is meaningless (the fact that A3 hands it out at 4k miles says it all, really. If they used a UA or AC logic, Gold would have been *s times 2 = 8k. Its not. Its 20k.). AC now gets to limit the benefits it hands out to maintain loyalty, while A3 picks up the disenfranchised.

That, IMO, is why *A has not come down hard on A3. A3's benefit to *A is precisely that it is generating loyalty in other parts of the world that might not have existed. From A3's point of view, as long as the costs don't exceed the benefits, what do they have to lose? In fact, i think they've deliberately put 300% class of service bonus on F on some carriers - a rather straightforward demand for a part of the cut for getting these pax to choose *A airlines.

In any event, if it folds, we will all become *S (at the very worst). When it happens, we can deal with it. Hardly worth worry about. I am fairly confident that TK, with its apparent desire to expand, will likely be willing to take us on, rather than see us all go to dust/LH etc.

As such, I think A3's program only benefits international and longhaul infrequent 'frequent' travellers. It is of very limited use to people who travel domestically frequently. I suspect that's a key part in A3s (and *As) calculation.

For instance, using my own case, getting to 20k miles (for me) is one YOW-LHR trip (6.6k miles) and one YOW-DEL trip annually (15k miles). On those trips, I can really only use the lounge 6 times (4x before departure, 2x transiting). Presumably a pax like me would generate more revenue than the cost of using the lounge. Now if I were to use the A3 card on non-mileage earning flights within Canada, this would be costly to A3, but then again, if I were doing that, it would be more sensible for me to stick to AC, since it would be easier for me to earn segment-based status with AC as well as additional benefits (upgrade vouchers and whatnot). I can only guess that similar situations arise with other arilines.

1. Unlike other programs, A3 does not offer a Tier bonus (which would cost other airline members more). *A airlines are probably happy about this, since they get the loyalty without having to cough up more for frequent fliers on other airlines.

2. A3 does offer a generous class of service bonus, but it should be noted that A3 members will be paying anywere from 3x to 6x more (for J/F) and will only be getting 1.5x - 3x more miles for it, so again, I doubt the partner airlines are too miffed.

3. A3 is cashing in in each case by selling the miles to the airline which are then deposited into one's own account.

I am no expert on how airlines deal with this, but I suspect the situation is much simpler: the operating airline pay a flat fee for each pax to the crediting airline. The crediting airline then uses their own guidelines to award miles in their own program. So stinginess in cheaper booking classes and lack of elite bonus should help A3, not the operating airline.


In any event, if it folds, we will all become *S (at the very worst). When it happens, we can deal with it. Hardly worth worry about. I am fairly confident that TK, with its apparent desire to expand, will likely be willing to take us on, rather than see us all go to dust/LH etc.

TK is matching BD eagerly, a more distant market than A3's.


As such, I think A3's program only benefits international and longhaul infrequent 'frequent' travellers. It is of very limited use to people who travel domestically frequently. I suspect that's a key part in A3s (and *As) calculation.

People who travel domestically frequently don't matter to *A : Greek airports aren't exactly full of *A lounges.

I am no expert on how airlines deal with this, but I suspect the situation is much simpler: the operating airline pay a flat fee for each pax to the crediting airline. The crediting airline then uses their own guidelines to award miles in their own program. So stinginess in cheaper booking classes and lack of elite bonus should help A3, not the operating airline.

TK is matching BD eagerly, a more distant market than A3's.

People who travel domestically frequently don't matter to *A : Greek airports aren't exactly full of *A lounges.

I m equally unsure about how exactly it works. Maybe a premium passenger flat fee is higher? I would imagine that the length of the journey and fare paid is a factor in all of it. It would be very odd if A3 got the same flat fee for a YYZ-YOW flight and YYZ-PEK flight (hypothetically speaking). Furthermore, if it is, in fact, a flat fee, then I imagine it would be based, in some way, on the cost of lounge access.

I m glad to hear about TK doing its bit.

When I said people who travel domestically, I meant people who travel domestically in the US/Canada, not necessarily Greece or within Germany.IE - a frequent flyer on YOW-YVR or IAD-SFO would find no benefit in using an A3 card for these fairly long journies that offer nought miles on discounted Y. In such cases, discounted Y fares count for nothing. I don't know what types of fares qualify for intra-Euro miles, but I imagine theres no/low mileage for discounted fares?

If A3 goes belly up:

1. It's unlikely that any *A carrier will honor A3 miles. They have no value to other carriers and they've basically been paid for.

2. It's even less likely that any *A carrier would status match.

This isn't the same situation as a more global carrier where there's an affirmative business case for Carrier A to honor Carrier B's program.

I can't predict the future better than the next person, but I can assure you that I wouldn't be transfering or crediting points to A3 until the crisis is resolved, if it's resolved.

If A3 goes belly up:

1. It's unlikely that any *A carrier will honor A3 miles. They have no value to other carriers and they've basically been paid for.

2. It's even less likely that any *A carrier would status match.

This isn't the same situation as a more global carrier where there's an affirmative business case for Carrier A to honor Carrier B's program.

I can't predict the future better than the next person, but I can assure you that I wouldn't be transfering or crediting points to A3 until the crisis is resolved, if it's resolved.

1. No *A carrier will honor any other airlines miles. The best one can get is a status match.

2. I think *A carriers will status match to a *S level, if not a *G level, depending on account statements. For instance, if I fly 40k miles inside a calendar year, with 22k miles on TK, I imagine TK will have no issues status matching me. It will, of course, depend on a case by case basis, but I don't think *A will tell everyone to take a hike.

3. There's not very many airlines that are doing well right now. To be honest, I m not bothered about losing my miles or status. I don't think anyone on this board is. Most of us aren't churning miles through Credit cards. At the most, we stand to lose a year or two's worth of miles (those who haven't redeemed already). If A3 hadn't existed, I (and I suspect many others here) wouldn't have angled for *S anyway, so we aren't really losing anything more than a few thousand miles that cant be gained back through Credit Card churning if nothing else.

I don't think its ever going to get resolved. And I don't think A3 is going away in a hurry. As a longtime 9W member, I've seen worse. Much worse. Like all airlines, A3 will continue along.

Point being - if you don't want to credit your miles to A3, don't. Suffice it to say, if A3 goes under, I (and I suspect many others here) will be more concerned about the A3 employees losing their jobs than a couple of thousand miles.

I have to say I am a bit amused by the fact that many non A3 members are commenting on this thread. What gives? Just generally out to stir the pot?

I m equally unsure about how exactly it works. Maybe a premium passenger flat fee is higher? I would imagine that the length of the journey and fare paid is a factor in all of it. It would be very odd if A3 got the same flat fee for a YYZ-YOW flight and YYZ-PEK flight (hypothetically speaking). Furthermore, if it is, in fact, a flat fee, then I imagine it would be based, in some way, on the cost of lounge access.

By flat fee, I meant a flat fee depending on the itinerary and class, opposing that to paying different carriers a different sum depending on how many miles they credit their members.


1. It's unlikely that any *A carrier will honor A3 miles. They have no value to other carriers and they've basically been paid for.

This would be an unreasonable expectation, yes. I don't think anybody has suggested that.


2. It's even less likely that any *A carrier would status match.


It would be much more likely, though, for the same reason they are status matching BMI members, which is quite comparable as an airline as A3. The cost of getting one-time *G status to someone is quickly repaid if they lure customers to their flights. Especially high-yield customers that are susceptible to be attracted to A3's programme (there is too many non-earning fares with M&B to be attractive for those who fly mostly on the cheapest fares).


This isn't the same situation as a more global carrier where there's an affirmative business case for Carrier A to honor Carrier B's program.

Spanair and BMI? More global carriers?


I can't predict the future better than the next person, but I can assure you that I wouldn't be transfering or crediting points to A3 until the crisis is resolved, if it's resolved.


One shouldn't maintain a large mileage balance in any programme, as currently very few airlines are in a good financial shape, and they can always be devaluated at the airline's whim.

When I said people who travel domestically, I meant people who travel domestically in the US/Canada, not necessarily Greece or within Germany.IE - a frequent flyer on YOW-YVR or IAD-SFO would find no benefit in using an A3 card for these fairly long journies that offer nought miles on discounted Y. In such cases, discounted Y fares count for nothing.

I don't fly *A much—probably only about 10k a year.
As someone who 'pays my own way', I'm not as loyal and much more fare-conscious: I've travelled across the border to take B6 before, and I'd do it again if it was substantially cheaper than AC. (I prefer B6 anyway: B6 is probably the only airline I would—and have—paid more to fly on)
More often than not nowadays, I use my BA Miles to take AA flights rather than pay some egregious fare on AC. I make a lot of short-haul journeys that are less than 5k BA Miles and that I otherwise would pay out of pocket for. It's going to take a long time to get status on AC with 500 and 750 mile flights, and they're going to charge me a fortune along the way.

But I was taking an AC flight anyway where I would earn enough miles to qualify for silver on A3, and said, "Well, why not credit it to A3? Aeroplan is a horrible programme anyway, and with silver, I'd get a free checked bag on UA and US."
US/UA can't complain because it makes me more likely to fly with them, A3 can't complain because they're generating the mileage revenue off my *A flights, and AC.... well, I don't really care about AC. :D
And if I were likely to qualify for G, it would make me much more likely to make my TATL travel with *A, mostly for the lounge benefit. Again, UA/US/AC win, because I otherwise would've looked elsewhere.

So the A3 programme is benefitting other *A carriers by directing traffic to them that would otherwise be more fare-conscious.

2. It's even less likely that any *A carrier would status match.

This isn't the same situation as a more global carrier where there's an affirmative business case for Carrier A to honor Carrier B's program.

Wasn't some sort of formal program set up after JK went under to match them on other *A carriers?

Not that I really care. It really just is a curiosity in many ways for me. :D

That EK's business plan is predicated on sucking up customers from other airlines and undermining the financial viability of national carriers (ask QF about that one) and not on taking customers to and from the Emirates which is how bilateral agreements were intended to work?

EK wouldn't be able to carry many passengers if they were not taking customers to and from the UAE. (This would only leave routes like SYD-CHC, SYD-AKL, BNE-AKL, MEL-AKL, SIN-BNE, KUL-MEL, BKK-SYD, BKK-HKG, CMB-SIN, CMB-MLE, MLA-LCA, HRE-LUN, ABJ-ACC, etc)

Don't bilateral agreements usually cover all the freedoms?

QF has long had many Asian competitors on its Asian/European routes. EK didn't invent the concept of flying the Kangaroo route with its home base as the intermediate transfer point!

QF has long had many Asian competitors on its Asian/European routes. EK didn't invent the concept of flying the Kangaroo route with its home base as the intermediate transfer point!

The moderator politely asked that we ignore some of the more absurd things that have been said and focus on A3 for this thread. :)

Sorry. As I just discovered the thread this afternoon, and felt compelled to reply to some points as I read through, I hadn't got to the part where the mod told us to zip our lips. :(

QF has long had many Asian competitors on its Asian/European routes. EK didn't invent the concept of flying the Kangaroo route with its home base as the intermediate transfer point!

SwissAir did excatly the same for years. Very small homemarket but traffic from anywhere to anywhere in the world via ZRH.

And the same does SQ. 5 Mio population. How many % of their pax are really originating or ending their journey in SIN?

Ahem! It's not the done thing to post about what the Moderator wants.

And I'm sure he'd never use an expression like 'zip our lips'. :D ;)

Just to clarify with actual facts: AC's 35K for STARGold came about for very logical and specific reasons based on the Canadian market but was actually consistent with threshold levels set by the majority of other STAR carriers (as is its shift to 50K for next year). When the threshold was set, AC (and its competitor CP) both only gave 50% status mileage for domestic discounted economy travel. Since the majority of its members earned their status from domestic travel, it was acknowledged that 35K would be a fair number to offset the differential between granting 100% versus 50% for these flights.

Similarly, A3 has a low threshold because the majority of its members who actually live in Greece or the region, fly ultra-short flights within the country, and thus should be able to achieve a parity of STARGold status with less mileage than those in programs of airlines operating in countries where the average flight segment was well over 500 miles.

In LH's case, it uses the 35K threshold for STARSilver instead of Gold because its program is biased towards the high dollars spending corporate fliers who travel internationally in LH's premium classes. This also explains the generosity of mileage credit for C and F fares (200% and 300% respectively).

So each program's thresholds are designed with the particular nature of the country's frequent travellers and the benefits the airline program wishes to bestow. AC decided it didn't want to be a patsy any longer for bottom feeding STARGold aspirants and thus instituted a minimum flights/mileage on AC metal requirement. One hopes A3 sees the wisdom of paring down its STARGold ranks (and thus costs) by similarly instituting a requirement to actually fly A3 for a good percentage of the required mileage. It's a pretty good airline BTW, though most of you would never know it because you've never flown it.

(I now expect the Mod to tell me I have been banned from FT for trying to clarify the record -- and thus being off topic -- but I suppose I can bear a second banning during more than 10-years of postings.)

Is it a scam? Is arbitrage a scam? If so, I expect you to stop buying goods in China since they rely on labor arbitrage and therefore all products made in China are products of a 'scam'. There were plenty of people (Americans mostly) who signed up to AE to take advantage of the 35k threshold for Star Gold not so long ago. That was 15k less than what MP required at 50k. Was that a scam as well? Should we be criticizing the ranks of American AE members who did that? Because, as I see it, A3 is only offering a threshold that is 15k miles of AC's former *G threshold. If AC could play that game with MP, why shouldn't A3 be allowed to play it now?

Futhermore, I think you'll find that A3's program is not exactly a secret to other airlines. Everyone knows the thresholds. If *A has a problem with it, they can bring it to bear on A3.

And no, I don't see it as taking advantage of A3. As I understand it, everytime I credit my flight to A3, AC has to purchase the miles from A3. If its generating revenue for A3, I m happy with it.

As I have just posted above, the AC threshold was quite justified and appropriate at the time. Had you looked into it, you'd know the reason, but you are still not addressing your allegations against me so I ask you to apologize for making them. Those who make charges that AC is keeping the surcharge money for awards issued on several STAR carriers have no proof of this spurious charge but continue to post it as a fact. Until such time as you can prove it, I suggest you stop bandying it about as a fact.

(I now expect the Mod to tell me I have been banned from FT for trying to clarify the record -- and thus being off topic -- but I suppose I can bear a second banning during more than 10-years of postings.)

You can expect what you like. You might be disappointed, though. When you break the ToS or ignore a warning you'll get your intervention, till then you'll have to contain your disappointment. The in-line warning above revolves around everyone playing nicely.

Now, let's steer away from discussing (potential?) Moderator Actions on the board, or the ToS may kick in, after all, eh?

GoldCircle
A3 forum Mod

...

Similarly, A3 has a low threshold because the majority of its members who actually live in Greece or the region, fly ultra-short flights within the country, and thus should be able to achieve a parity of STARGold status with less mileage than those in programs of airlines operating in countries where the average flight segment was well over 500 miles.
...
So each program's thresholds are designed with the particular nature of the country's frequent travellers and the benefits the airline program wishes to bestow.
...

Yes, A3 program is naturally designed with this in mind. You will earn 200-600 miles for a domestic Y flight, 800 in J. For A3's international flights, the max earnings are 2000 in J.
From this point of view Gold requires 100 segments in deep discount domestic econ, or 10 segments international J. Quite on par with other programs.
The difficulty first presented itself when A3 joined *A, where earnings are much higher. They could inflate their own thresholds and earnings to the *A level, but then they devalue the accumulated points for existing members.

Adding a minimum required miles/segments on A3 metal is a much better solution, and if they need to limit the number of members who never fly A3 I am sure they will add that in a flash.

I am not sure they need that, though? Has it been estabilshed that the membership airline pays for lounge access? I am under the impression that the operating carrier pays for lounges.

I am not sure they need that, though? Has it been estabilshed that the membership airline pays for lounge access?

Yes, I have it in writing from the manager of Miles and Bonus.

However, I'm inclined to think that the revenue from the miles credited to Miles and Bonus pay for the lounge access and more.

However, I'm inclined to think that the revenue from the miles credited to Miles and Bonus pay for the lounge access and more.

That has been BD's rationale for years. It could be even more true for A3 as they give less miles for booking classes where lounge access isn't included, lessening the cost of booking award seats.

Yes, I have it in writing from the manager of Miles and Bonus.

However, I'm inclined to think that the revenue from the miles credited to Miles and Bonus pay for the lounge access and more.
If the status airline pays for lounge use, then it could be important to enter lounges with just the boarding pass when flying international J/C for example, so that the operating carrier pays when flying premium classes. OTOH, LH would be a special case as having *Gold gets you into a different and better lounge than the one you can use due to having a business class ticket, so that you would always what to show the *Gold card to enter the SEN lounge.

Just to clarify with actual facts: AC's 35K for STARGold came about for very logical and specific reasons based on the Canadian market but was actually consistent with threshold levels set by the majority of other STAR carriers (as is its shift to 50K for next year). When the threshold was set, AC (and its competitor CP) both only gave 50% status mileage for domestic discounted economy travel. Since the majority of its members earned their status from domestic travel, it was acknowledged that 35K would be a fair number to offset the differential between granting 100% versus 50% for these flights.

Similarly, A3 has a low threshold because the majority of its members who actually live in Greece or the region, fly ultra-short flights within the country, and thus should be able to achieve a parity of STARGold status with less mileage than those in programs of airlines operating in countries where the average flight segment was well over 500 miles.

In LH's case, it uses the 35K threshold for STARSilver instead of Gold because its program is biased towards the high dollars spending corporate fliers who travel internationally in LH's premium classes. This also explains the generosity of mileage credit for C and F fares (200% and 300% respectively).

So each program's thresholds are designed with the particular nature of the country's frequent travellers and the benefits the airline program wishes to bestow. AC decided it didn't want to be a patsy any longer for bottom feeding STARGold aspirants and thus instituted a minimum flights/mileage on AC metal requirement. One hopes A3 sees the wisdom of paring down its STARGold ranks (and thus costs) by similarly instituting a requirement to actually fly A3 for a good percentage of the required mileage. It's a pretty good airline BTW, though most of you would never know it because you've never flown it.

(I now expect the Mod to tell me I have been banned from FT for trying to clarify the record -- and thus being off topic -- but I suppose I can bear a second banning during more than 10-years of postings.)

None of this addresses your initial posts about it being a 'scam' or 'starscam' or whatever you called it.

AC changed its 'program' because AE was spun off. AE was raking in the money, while AC got nothing from their legions of non-AC flying Elites. I suspect AC got PO'ed by the fact that AE was milking money by selling partner miles while it was only able to claim a fraction of that (probably just the amount relating to lounge access by AE members which, presumably, was footed by AC and reimbursed by AE). AE's success and profitability bode well for A3, since A3 owns its program and will reap the money AC lost out on. After all, I (and others) believe that AC instituted YQ on other airlines' rewards in order to generate revenue for itself by leveling the play field (ie instituting the same YQ fees on other airlines, which were attracting a lot of potential AC reward traffic by not charging YQ). This way, people travelling on rewards will be relatively indifferent to whether its on LH or AC. And I think we can agree that, at the very least, the YQ portion on AC rewards is a significant revenue generator for AC. That is all related to AC's decision to spin off AE into a separate company. A3 owns Miles and Bonus. It will reap all the profits/losses of the program, unlike AC which gets a fraction of mileage revenue.

The comparison, therefore, is invalid.

As to the issue of an apology - it is being addressed in the appropriate thread in the appropriate AC forum. Prove me wrong there and I will apologize both here and there.

:eek: I really don't understand why this particular forum invites opinions that are, mildly put, offending!+ 1 ^

Ok, it stops now.

No further discussion of scams, not scams, Aeroplan history, AC-forum-snide-comments or anything else that does not narrowly revolved around A3's financial health. No riding comments to on-topic posts, either.

This is not the forum for posters egos. It is the forum for discussion of A3.

Clear?

I've rarely if ever had to deal with external spats in the bmi forum and I have no intention of allowing this sort of tiresome stuff to get a foothold here.

/Move along now, nothing to see here.../

GoldCircle
A3 Forum Mod

There is a point that's worth noting with AC, though, which sheds light on A3's situation. Aeroplan is making money. It was known, but difficult to prove, that BD's approach was financially sound. With AE as a separate and not-bankrupt company, we have the demonstration that FFP can be a profit center, even when paying for lounge access once in a while. This may explain why A3 isn't rushing to implement more stringent requirement to make a profit center less successful. There's obviously some kind of balance to be found, like BMI did.

There is a point that's worth noting with AC, though, which sheds light on A3's situation. Aeroplan is making money. It was known, but difficult to prove, that BD's approach was financially sound. With AE as a separate and not-bankrupt company, we have the demonstration that FFP can be a profit center, even when paying for lounge access once in a while. This may explain why A3 isn't rushing to implement more stringent requirement to make a profit center less successful. There's obviously some kind of balance to be found, like BMI did.

Posts in the AC forum make it sound like it's AC, not AE that's paying for lounge access every time E and SE pax swipe their cards. Ergo, the new AC metal requirements.

Of course, that could be completely wrong—it could be that FTers know nothing about the secret wheeling-dealings of Canada's longest running frequent-flyer sc... heme. It's mostly speculation, I'm sure.

Though OZ does have basically the same requirements as A3, just on a two-year schedule, so it's not unprecedented. I'm sure that BD, OZ and A3 all thought this out more than FTers often give them credit for—even if the number of people working full-time on the FFP in the company is less than the number doing it full-time on FT.

The biggest single risk to its operations is if Greece were to leave the Eurozone.
Well, the election result makes me hope that we won't have to worry about this as much any more...

Well, the election result makes me hope that we won't have to worry about this as much any more...

Dont be so sure . I know Greek politics and it wont be long before they start fighting again and the coalition collapses. Im willing to be proved wrong though. Maybe this time they will actually put the country first and its people before lining their own pockets!

Anyway OT I know but an important point.

For the sake of A3 / OA and tourism in Greece I hope you are right .

Anyway OT I know but an important point.

For the sake of A3 / OA and tourism in Greece I hope you are right .

For the sake of tourism in Greece, leaving the eurozone, which imply a weaker currency, would be a boon instead of a bane.

For the sake of tourism in Greece, leaving the eurozone, which imply a weaker currency, would be a boon instead of a bane.

They can still be good for tourists inside the Eurozone as we are seeing now.
Same in Ireland. Hotel prices are falling and prices in restaurants and attractions are falling too . Both countries had over inflated prices compared to others. Its actually nice to see it getting back to reality.

For the sake of tourism in Greece, leaving the eurozone, which imply a weaker currency, would be a boon instead of a bane.

They can still be good for tourists inside the Eurozone as we are seeing now.
Same in Ireland. Hotel prices are falling and prices in restaurants and attractions are falling too . Both countries had over inflated prices compared to others. Its actually nice to see it getting back to reality.

Ireland and Greece are both having a very difficult time doing an internal devaluation within the Eurozone. Wages, especially, are sticky downward (ie very resistant to falling, hence the general strikes and protests seen in Greece), but so are many other costs.

The only effective way for Greece to have a meaningful devaluation within the Eurozone is for Germany, France and the Benelux to accept significantly higher inflation for a long period of time while the price level in Greece (and Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal) remains stable, making those countries relatively less expensive than their counterparts.

Germany has made it clear that they don't want to do this (so far) and screams bloody murder every time it is suggested. The ECB is modelled on the German Bundesbank, and therefore it is a remarkably ineffective organisation: it has one objective, and that is to control inflation. Most other central banks (such as the Bank of England, the Fed, the Reserve Bank of Australia and the Bank of Japan, but with the notable exception of the Bank of Canada) are mandated to balance the dual objectives of maintaining price stability while promoting economic and/or employment growth. The ECB therefore has no ability to adopt a policy that would lead to higher inflation.

Without either central bank action or an exit from the EMU, any price adjustment in Greece will be modest at best and more likely insignificant.

I think it is not the first time that we have read news about government budget and job cuts in Greece. As a result of that，is the airline safe enough to go through that？ I do not want my points get accumulated on A3 and suddenly it needs to be forfeited...

Welcome to FT, twydeutschland!

You may want to do some reading here http://en.aegeanair.com/investor-relations/financial-results/

A quick glance reveals they made a small profit Q1. That would be a better outcome than a few other european airlines.

Then again, points are not "safe" anywhere. Even if you stay away from bankruptcies, you will find your points being devaluated over time, as every program these days are adjusting earn/burn ratios and adding other "enhancements" to the program. Best advice is always to use the points as quickly as you can.

Welcome to FT, twydeutschland!

You may want to do some reading here http://en.aegeanair.com/investor-relations/financial-results/

A quick glance reveals they made a small profit Q1. That would be a better outcome than a few other european airlines.

Then again, points are not "safe" anywhere. Even if you stay away from bankruptcies, you will find your points being devaluated over time, as every program these days are adjusting earn/burn ratios and adding other "enhancements" to the program. Best advice is always to use the points as quickly as you can.

Thanks! That's exactly how every loyalty programme is operating these days!:(

As someone who lost a non-trivial amount of miles/points with JK last January (a lot, really)... I'd advise anyone to spend the miles as soon as it makes sense to do so :(

Welcome to FT, twydeutschland!

You may want to do some reading here http://en.aegeanair.com/investor-relations/financial-results/

A quick glance reveals they made a small profit Q1. That would be a better outcome than a few other european airlines.

Then again, points are not "safe" anywhere. Even if you stay away from bankruptcies, you will find your points being devaluated over time, as every program these days are adjusting earn/burn ratios and adding other "enhancements" to the program. Best advice is always to use the points as quickly as you can.

i.e. AC
Then again, maybe the devaluations can cause the bankruptcy.

i.e. AC
Then again, maybe the devaluations can cause the bankruptcy.

I agree. Hope A3 can stay on track.:D

Having read through the thread, and seen some interesting comments from one member. I would like to start with saying that the A3*G is NOT much of a scam, at least when comparing to the low *G requirements many other *A airlines are offering. For starters take the comparison of A3 and SAS EB who recently lowered their treshold to 50K while at the same time introducing 100% earnings on even the cheapest booking classes. With that in mind, it's possible to earn SK*G with just 3 SAS long hauls + some Eurohop, making it doable for less than EUR 1600 if not cheaper! Getting A3*G will cost roughly the same in most cases, but the only difference is that A3 only gives earnings on higher booking classes in Y or Business Class.

In other words both *G cards will have generated the same level of revenue to the airlines, as opposed to the yileds who are actually higher for an A3*G. I think this makes it justifiable to say that A3*G should be recalled as equally valuable as any other *G, and please don't get so fooled by the 19K requirement treshold because it doesn't really say much...

SK*G is per one year 50K, A3*G is per three years 20K total. It is remarkable difference.

Having read through the thread, and seen some interesting comments from one member. I would like to start with saying that the A3*G is NOT much of a scam, at least when comparing to the low *G requirements many other *A airlines are offering. For starters take the comparison of A3 and SAS EB who recently lowered their treshold to 50K while at the same time introducing 100% earnings on even the cheapest booking classes. With that in mind, it's possible to earn SK*G with just 3 SAS long hauls + some Eurohop, making it doable for less than EUR 1600 if not cheaper! Getting A3*G will cost roughly the same in most cases, but the only difference is that A3 only gives earnings on higher booking classes in Y or Business Class.

In other words both *G cards will have generated the same level of revenue to the airlines, as opposed to the yileds who are actually higher for an A3*G. I think this makes it justifiable to say that A3*G should be recalled as equally valuable as any other *G, and please don't get so fooled by the 19K requirement treshold because it doesn't really say much...
One shouldn't also forget that most of A3's customers are Greek, and that if the criteria for becoming Gold were similar to those of, say, LH, the airline's best customers would practically be excluded since, on average, you only get 500 miles per domestic segment. Of course, A3 could have different requirements for Greek residents, like AF had (and still has?) for its fidelity programme; here, though, the requirements for French residents were (are) stricter... At any rate, as I wrote in a different thread, it took me ~50 flights to become A3*G, but at that time I was mostly flying Skyteam airlines for most of my international flights.

This is a great thread with lots of good information. Thanks to those who are discussing A3's health and debating the morale question that is sure to be out there, too.

As an infrequent flyer by US standards (about 3-5 flights a year for 15k-22k miles) I appreciate the ability to earn the benefits of *G status vice using a high annual fee credit card. As such, I would not mind investing in A3's financial health, since they are giving me a shot. As such, I would not mind a reasonable fee to keep tbe program alive for international members (that can be waived with a segment or two on A3 metal during the 3 year period). As an alternative, I would be willing to get their co-branded card in the States to keep the status viable for them.

However if simply coding my *aliance flights to A3 is enough to offset my program use, then I will continue to do this.

- Chris

Here's to someone who is not trying to exploit the ffp :)
Great post.